Title: Inside the CIA: Secrets That Send Chills Down Your Spine - CIA John Kiriakou
Show: Covert Operations Insight
Date: 2026-05-25
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtqEYHyY3ms
Duration: 52:15

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[00:05] in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were, I could grow all the poppy I wanted. And I said, "What American told you you could grow poppy?" And the security guy says, "Meeting over." And he grabs me by the arm and he physically pulls me back to the jeep as soon as he started talking about his family. >> You got him. >> I knew I had him. That's what at at the CIA we call the operational vulnerability. You always have to worry that you didn't actually recruit them. Have you ever heard of Iwwayi Weii?

[00:36] >> No. >> He's one of the most popular artists in the world right now. He um he designed the Olympic Stadium in Beijing. >> I >> Yeah. >> Oh, here is there he is. I ai Oh, there he is. We I He's Japanese or >> he's Chinese? >> Chinese. >> He was uh he was in prison for years because he's a pro-democracy activist. But um when I was in prison,

[01:09] he did my portrait out of Legos. I was one of 178 political prisoners that he did. I'm next to Martin Luther King of all people. And now it's in the permanent collection of the Smithsonian institution >> right here. Right. >> Yeah. Uhhuh. >> Wow. >> The Smithsonian. >> So cool. You're in the Smithsonian. >> Yeah, it's in the Smithsonian's collection now. Have you ever heard of um Andres Serrano? >> No, I have not. >> Have you ever heard of Piss Christ? >> I have not. >> It's a It's a beaker of urine and

[01:40] there's an upside down crucifix in it. >> You're too young. So it came out in the 1980s. Jesus Christ came out in the 1980s and it made it made Ronald Reagan so angry that he cut off funding to the National Endowment for the Arts and to the >> Why did it make him angry though? >> Cuz it's a crucifix in piss. >> Oh my god. >> He flipped out. >> Holy moly. >> So, um, >> and this this was done by an artist, >> Andres Serrano. >> And what's the what's the point of that?

[02:11] I don't get it. >> Um, it's like the absurdity of religion. >> Oh my god. Right. So, all it did was it made Andress even more famous. >> Yeah. I would cut the funding, too. >> Oh, listen. The Republican party >> was absolutely furious. But he did my portrait, too. >> It's in a series of pictures from torture chambers around the world, and it's it's in the tape modern. >> Wow. >> In London. Isn't that hilarious? And

[02:44] it's next to like this uh >> a torturer >> from the US military. >> Wow. Hold on. This this is this is not a photograph. >> It's a photograph. >> Oh, it's a photograph. Okay. >> Because there are some some realist paint hyper. Yeah. They paint just just like this. >> I was younger and fatter, but yeah, it's in the it's in the tape modern of all things. >> That's incredible. My girlfriend and I went to London in March and we went to

[03:14] Tape Modern to see it. She's like, "Show off. >> Did you I would do the same. >> I wanted to see it for myself. You know, I've only seen pictures of it." >> Oh, you've never seen it in real life? Oh, then what's so sh up about that? There's not nothing wrong with that. Yeah. >> Oh, man. >> Thank you so much for coming. >> It's my pleasure. I'm a massive fan. I always think to myself, if I had a

[03:44] second career, I'd be a spy or something like this. >> There you go. >> You know the >> You're still young enough. >> Well, I don't I don't think they would accept me. I'm 37. >> Ah, you just you missed it by a year. >> Yeah. Yeah. But can you tell me what what what made you think I mean I know I read your story. I know you were in college. uh professor recruited to you who recruited you and most of the time I think that's the way >> you know people get recruited >> is through through college right >> until yes currently today until 1993

[04:17] when they passed the Equal Employment Opportunity Act they could just say hey don't tell anybody CIA you want it you want in >> and then you know you have to pass the test of course but then you're in can't do that since 93 but they found a way around it recently Um, until just a few years ago, you had to go to www.cia.gov and click apply. Not sexy at all. Not worthy of a story. >> But what they do now is they've got this

[04:48] program called the scholar and residence program. >> So, let's say you're from, you know, Pittsburgh and you're going to retire in three years. They say, "Listen, instead of retiring, why don't you move to Pittsburgh, we'll get you a a professorship at the University of Pittsburgh. >> You teach a class in, you know, the history of KGB operations in Armenia and um

[05:19] and uh if you see anybody on the QT, let us know and we'll reach out to them." So, that's the way they do it. Now they have professors all over America at every major university and they're like CIA officer scholar and residence. So everybody knows you're CIA. They they're still doing what they have always done but now it's out in the open instead of a secret. >> Do you know the the uni bomber story about >> about MK Ultra? >> Yeah. About this professor? >> Yeah. Did they do they do something like

[05:49] that until today where >> they did that until 1975, but we're we like have to take their word for it that they're not doing that anymore. We don't know. >> Yeah. >> In your opinion, >> we probably are doing something like that. >> And I mean, back then it was MK Ultra. What would they do now? What kind of programs in your opinion? >> Oh, honestly, anything their hearts desired. All they have to do is write a letter to the uh chairman and vice chairman of the two oversight committees. They can do anything they

[06:20] want. >> They just rubber stamp it and they said, "Okay, go do whatever you want." >> This is a big beef that I have with the oversight committees is that they don't oversee anything. They're just cheerleaders for the CIA. Back in the 70s, the oversight committees, well, they didn't become the oversight committees until 1976, but the church committee and the Pike Committee in the House almost dismantled the CIA because it was a rogue organization. It was murdering heads of state. It was overthrowing governments. It was

[06:51] carrying out secret wars. And then Congress is like, "Well, wait a minute. We never said you could do any of that stuff, you know, with these special assassination devices, these guns the likes of which nobody had ever seen before that they just invented, you know, for the purpose of carrying out assassinations. And so they created the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that were supposed to oversee the day-to-day functioning of the CIA. That was great until about 1986

[07:23] and then they just fell back to where they always were and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, just do anything you want. Anything you want?" >> You were an adviser for the Senate oversight, correct? >> For the Senate uh foreign relations committee. Yeah. Under John Kerry. >> Did the CIA somewhat lie under that? >> Oh my god. Yes. >> I had nothing but trouble with the CIA when I was at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I I told this story to a reporter just yesterday. Um in 2008 when Barack Obama was running for president,

[07:54] a reporter asked him about something called the Dash Deilele massacre. This took place on December the 1st, 2001 in Mazeri Sharif, northern Afghanistan. So on November 30th and December 1st, 2001, 2,000 Taliban soldiers just gave up on Mas. They just gave up to the Northern Alliance under General Abdul Rashid Dstam. Dstam is a monster. He continues to be a monster. >> He's He's still alive today.

[08:24] >> Oh yeah. And now he's allied with the Taliban. He was allied with the Soviets and then with the Taliban and then with the Northern Alliance and then with the Americans and then with the Taliban again. He's a he's a political >> I see. And so he's also a murderous son of a gun. So Dostam called American forces and said, "We have 2,000 prisoners. We can't hold them. What should we do with them?" And

[08:56] the CIA told Doam to put them on trucks, take them out to the desert, and hold them there until we could divide them up into smaller groups and then send them to prisons around the country. because there's no prison in all of Afghanistan in 2001 that's big enough to hold 2,000 people overnight. Maybe you send some to to Pakistan, you know, whatever. >> So, they called it the box up. They put all 2,000 men, they crammed them into

[09:26] containers that were on the back of trucks. There was no food, there was no water, and most importantly, there was no air. And when the prisoners started beating on the inside of the containers that they couldn't breathe, Dostam's forces just shot the trucks and said, "Now you have air holes." Killed an untold number. >> They trucked them out to the desert. It took about a day. And according to one

[09:59] of the 14 survivors >> out of 2,000. >> Mhm. When they opened the containers, the bodies fell out like sardines from a can. >> Wow. >> So Obama said when he was candidate Obama, we need to investigate this and get to the bottom. Was the US involved or was this just an unfortunate incident in the fog of war and blah blah blah? And then he as soon as he gets elected, he's like, "Yeah, we don't we don't need

[10:29] to investigate that. No, no, no. We're not gonna we're not going to talk about that anymore. So, I'm on the job at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for a couple of months and I get a call from a very prominent, very important human rights um activist who knows about these things, not just some nut, you know, from the street. This is like a serious guy. >> Are you able to name the activist? I he asked me not to expose him, >> but he calls me and he says, "Um, I have some new information, very important

[10:59] information that you're going to need to hear, but I think we shouldn't meet in public." I said, "Okay, where do you want to meet?" He said, "There's an empty classroom at John's Hopkins University. Let's meet there at 2 o'clock." I said, "Great." I go over to John's Hopkins. The lights are off and everything. I get into the building, go to the go to the classroom, and he's there. He's waiting for me. And he said, "I know that you know all about Dashi Leyle." And I said, "I do. I've written about it." And he said, "I have a new

[11:30] witness who's just come forward. He's 20 years old, which means he was 12 when Dash Lee took place." He said that he was hiding behind a rock when they opened the trucks and the bodies all fell out. >> Wow. >> And I said, "Okay, so what's the new information?" He said, "The new information is that there were two men standing there wearing blue jeans and black t-shirts and speaking English." >> CIA, >> who who else? And this is what I I said

[12:01] to him. Well, who else could possibly be in the middle of the Afghan desert on December the 1st or 2nd, 2001, wearing black t-shirts and jeans and speaking English. So I said, I'm going to write to the CIA and I'm going to put him on the spot. So I get back to the office. I write a letter to the CIA asking for clarification. We've developed this new information. We want to know what the truth is. Was the CIA on site when

[12:36] >> the the trucks were opened? So I gave it to Carrie. Carrie signed it. Sent it to the CIA. Six weeks pass and a colleague of mine happened to come into my office and he said, "Oh, hey, um, the agency responded to your letter." I said, "I just checked my mail an hour ago. I didn't see any letter from the agency." He said, "Oh, they classified it as top secret. It's downstairs in the vault." At the time, I only had a secret clearance, and the letter that I sent to them was unclassified.

[13:09] I said, "Well, what's it say?" And he says, "It says," go yourself." And I said, 'Okay, that's how they want to play it. All right, that's fine. So, I go over to Carrie's office and I said, "Look, this is a cover up. I'm 100% sure the CIA was involved in the Dash Dashley massacre and now they won't answer your questions." I said, "You signed that letter. My name wasn't on that letter." M >> and he said, "Yeah, I've been thinking about this and I think we should

[13:40] probably just drop this." >> Typical politician. >> Typical John Kerry. Because he never ever ever wanted to do anything that could possibly jeopardize his chances of becoming Secretary of State. >> That's all he cared about. It's what he lived for. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, you know, it's funny going back a few months to January of 2009, he called me out of the blue and he said,

[14:12] "I'm going to be the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and I'm going to reinstitute the committee's investigative function." They stopped investigations in 1972. He said, "With your reputation as a whistleblower, I want you to come here and head investigations and I want you to go hard." And I said, 'Great, I'm your guy.' So, we shook hands. I started working two weeks later. And every time I got close to something, he'd say, "Yeah, you're going to you're

[14:43] going to kill this investigation." >> He he told you every single time. >> Personally, and I'll give you another example. >> I said to a colleague of mine, "I'm gonna I think I'm going to go to uh Afghanistan next week. I want to I want to do a study on the heroin poppy crop. Right. As recently as the late 1970s, Afghanistan was a net food exporter. >> They grew so much food they were exporting it to Pakistan. I don't know if you've ever been to Afghanistan, but the entire country is just like a giant

[15:14] sandbox. And then there are these rivers that run through it. And then on the banks of the rivers, it's completely green. They were able to grow so much food. They could feed every Afghan and export it to Pakistan. It's incredible. Now, or in 2009, for as far as the eye can see, nothing but heroin poppy >> and they had to import almost 100% of their food. Right? People's children

[15:47] don't have shoes. They don't have enough to eat. But man, they've got 93% of the world's heroin. Can you imagine that? >> And was this intentional? Was this told by a government to >> It's intentional. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Now, keep in mind that the Taliban banned the the cultivation of heroin poppy. >> So, in 2000, Afghanistan accounted for 0% of the world's heroin. >> This is in 2000. >> This is in 2009. Is it 2009? 200 2009

[16:21] 93% >> of the world heroin >> of all the heroin in the world. >> Wow. >> So I fly out to um Kabell and there was a helicopter waiting for me and took me to Bram. This was the only time in my entire career that I ever pulled rank on somebody. Um, they said, "Listen, we're not we're not going to take you to the poppy fields. It's too dangerous." And I said, "No, you you are

[16:53] going to take me." No, it's >> Who are you talking to? >> To the military. No, it's too dangerous. And I said, "Listen, with all due respect, and I hate to do this. It's not my nature, but being a senior staff member on a on a congressional oversight committee, I have Brigadier Brigadier General status. So I'm ordering you to fly me to Kandahar and then to Lashkar and then back to Bram. So they did it. We go to Kandahar

[17:23] and it was just a day of meetings um in in the the base there and I met uh you know the Afghans. They're all liars and criminals and you know narco traffickers. And then we flew to Lashgarat to something called the PRT, the provisional reconstruction. I forget what T stands for. It's a state department um function where they they put you in the most isolated places in a country and then you work with the locals to dig water wells, put up a

[17:57] windmill. Yeah. So we fly in and and I got lucky. I knew I was going to get lucky because the head of the PRT and Lash Gar was a friend of mine from the State Department. >> So he said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I'm getting real push back from these guys. They don't want to do any of this. But what I want to do is just get in a jeep. >> Can you tell me why they didn't want to take you?" >> Cuz I was asking questions that made them very uncomfortable. >> But why were they getting uncomfortable? The military. >> Who's protecting the heroin fields?

[18:28] >> Got it. That's an answer I wanted to hear from you. Yeah. I mean, I knew, but I want >> I mean, listen, I don't like the Taliban any more than you do. >> Yeah. >> But there was zero heroin under the Taliban, and there's 93% heroin under the American government. >> What you tell me is that under the US government protection, world's 93% of heroin was being overlooked by by us, the US military. >> It was being encouraged by us. >> Overlooked, encouraged to be distributed and to beh to be spread. That's the rub.

[19:00] So, that's what I'm getting to. I said, "I want to go out into the fields. I want to talk to a poppy farmer." He said, "Let's go." We had a couple of of jeeps. We had security. We had a translator. They I don't speak um um Pashtu. So, we go out into the fields, and I mean, as far as your eyes can possibly see, it's just an ocean of heroin poppy. So sure enough, we see a puppy farmer

[19:30] >> and we go up to him. Salamu allayikum and we get out and he's like, "Who are you?" So I said, "I'm I'm from the Congress in Washington." And uh I want to talk to you about the poppy. He's like, "Okay, what about the poppy?" And I I asked a very stupid question. It wasn't stupid, it was naive. I said, 'Wh would you grow poppy when you can grow vegetables with two growing seasons like tomatoes or onions or pomegranates? You can you can

[20:03] cultivate them and then and then you know >> export them >> and reap them twice in a in a year and export them. And he goes like this. He goes, "The Americans told me in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were, I could grow all the poppy I wanted." And I said, "What American told you you could grow poppy?" And the security guy says, "Meeting over." And he grabs me by the arm and he physically pulls me back to the jeep. >> You know, while he's telling the story,

[20:34] I feel like it's a movie. I swear to God. >> But none of the movies in my stories have good endings. Yeah. >> The good guy always gets screwed in my stories. >> Yeah. >> So, we go back to the PRT. Oh, it's too dangerous. There's a threat on your There was no threat. Nobody knew we were coming. We get back on the helicopter, fly all the way back to Bagram. The next day, I go back to uh Kabell, fly to Dubai, and then from Dubai to um to Washington.

[21:05] So, I I went to see Carrie the day after I got back. And I said, "Listen, it's a bad situation out there. 93% of the world's heroin." He's like, "My god, I didn't even know it was that bad. It's incredible. It's blah, you know, blah blah blah." So, I write this paper and I point the finger right at the CIA and the US military. And before I gave it to Carrie, I sent it to a friend of mine at DEA. I had these two friends who worked at at a

[21:36] secret DEA facility way out in the sticks, way out in in rural Virginia. You'd never have any idea. It was a government office. I said, "Read this. Let me think what let me know what you think." So he calls me back and he says, "Buddy, you know you're never going to get this published, right?" And I said, "Why?" I said, "I'm the chief investigator." And he says, "Look, Afghanistan produces 93% of the world's heroin." Right? I said, he said, "All of that heroin goes

[22:10] to Iran and Russia, and we want them to be addicted to heroin." >> It weakens their societies. It weakens their cultures. It makes them easier to beat. >> And this is coming from We have to fight them. >> DEA. >> Yeah. The DEA senior officer. >> Wow. And sure enough, Carrie says, "You know, on second thought, I don't think it really does any good for us to to publish this paper. It's just it's angry and it points the finger and I think we

[22:41] should probably just kill it." >> But you're telling me no heroin came to the United States from Afghanistan? >> Our heroin comes from Ecuador and Mexico, >> South Latin America. Got it. >> Yeah. It's just too hard to get it from Afghanistan all the way to the United States when it can just come right up through Mexico. Got it. >> But then make a make a comparison here. Why won't the Chinese stop the flow of fentinel to the United States? I'll give you one guess. Because it weakens our society and it makes us easier to beat

[23:12] if we have to fight them in a war. >> Do you know, speaking of weakening the society, do you know that uh KGB agent who defected in the 1980s who was a head psychologist? I forget his name. >> Yeah. In fact, I went to his grave. He's buried at uh at Rock Creek Cemetery in Washington. >> Uh his name escapes me right now. >> Uh I can we can Can you Tom, can you Google KGB agent defected to United States like head psychologist? Oh, there

[23:42] there he is. Uh Yuri Bezmanov. >> That's him. >> Yuri Bezmanov. There you go. >> That was fast, Tom. >> Yeah. So, I I'm sure you've seen his his videos. >> Yeah. and how he speaks about that it takes 20 to 30 years >> for the KGB to work on you know the minds of Americans to shift their ideology to shift the way they think and the entire purpose of that is to weaken society you know and he speaks about liberalism and how it's wonderful and

[24:13] how that you know family values have to be diluted and you know the and and so on and so forth you know religion shouldn't be included in in American household holes or in schools >> and over the long term they're succeeding >> and that's exactly what kind of is happening right now that right I mean if you think about it a lot of people are fighting against that and now you're telling me that you know the the Americans are doing the exact same thing no different or the Chinese are doing the exact same thing to the US right now

[24:44] with fentinol right >> and I was thinking that back you know during the cold war yes you know the the Russians were the largest adversary But right now >> they sure were. >> It's the Chinese, right? >> It's the Chinese. >> And uh I was reading that in the past 10-15 years, we had more Chinese national double agents arrested than any other uh uh national from any country. One of the biggest intelligence threats to the United States, and this is not new, this has been decades, 80 years, um

[25:17] is the threat of counter intelligence. you know, if you if you recruit a Russian, a Chinese, a Cuban, an Iranian, a North Korean, whoever, um, you always have to worry that you didn't actually recruit them. They allowed you to recruit them so that they could be double agents and report back to their home services. >> Well, I have a question for you then. Let's go back to 1990 when you you were just joining the CIA >> world's one of the famous stories, Alra Games.

[25:49] He he was a double agent from >> Oh, Aldrick Ames. Oh, yeah. That was a little bit later. Yeah. Yeah. He was caught in uh what 93 94. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Major traitor. >> Were you Were you aware while you were in the CIA about that story? >> Absolutely not. >> Nobody was. There is literally nothing more compartmentalized than counter inelligence operations. They're the most highly classified, highly compartmentalized operations that exist. And then after that, Richard uh Hans

[26:21] Hans FBI Hanser Hansen >> hit close to home. I had a a a great friend um who was one of the mole hunters at the CIA. Uh Brian Kelly. Brian Brian is dead now. Um Hansen was the chief mole hunter at the FBI, but he was the mole. >> He was the mole. Yeah. So what he did was it it's complicated.

[26:54] Our our our sources inside Russia began dying, right? They'd get arrested and then they would start dying. So we figured there's a mole. So they started um >> this is in the 2000s. >> No, no, this is in the 90s. >> 90s. Okay. So they started the investigation and they were able to figure out that it was Alder James, Rick Ames. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. >> So they arrest Ames and he gets life without parole. One of

[27:25] the worst traders of the second half of the 20th century. And then our sources keep dying. There's got to be another mole, a second one. And so Hansen and the FBI began the investigation. >> Well, the chief mole hunter at the CIA was Brian Kelly. >> Mhm. >> And so Hansen directed his investigation at Brian and

[27:56] said, "That's the mole." >> Wow. >> It's Brian Kelly. Well, the CIA is going to believe the chief mole hunter of the FBI, right? They're supposed to be the best in the world. Why wouldn't they believe their own? >> They would never, especially the FBI, would never believe that one of their own was a traitor. >> No. No. Why wouldn't the CIA Why would the CIA believe that one of their own is the mole instead? >> Because one just was a minute ago with Aldred James. >> I see. >> So they were like, "Oh my god, you know, something terrible is happening at the

[28:26] CIA." What they did is they bugged Brian's office inside the CIA, but he wasn't saying anything because he wasn't the mall. >> Yeah. >> Then they suspended him without pay and they told him um that he couldn't leave his house. He was like under house arrest. >> But he does he have a clue what's going on >> now? Now he's like they think I'm the mole. >> Okay. >> He's hunting the mole. >> Yeah. >> And now they say, "Nope, Brian's the mole."

[28:56] They go to Oregon. Uh, a CIA security officer and an FBI agent go to Oregon. Brian's daughter was working at a at a nursing home at the time. And they told her, "If you give us the information on your father, we won't execute him." She's like, "My father's innocent." Well, we're going to have to execute him then >> if you won't cooperate. >> But that's a total farce. >> It was all Well, no. No. I mean, they fully intended to uh well, if they

[29:28] could, if not, it would be life without parole like they did with Ames, but they were serious. And so, um, this went on for a year until there was an incident at the FBI where they had placed a recording device at a dead drop site in Vienna, Virginia, >> underneath a bridge, a little foot bridge.

[29:59] And the drop was made and then the mole did the pickup. So they were like, "Brian Kelly, he went and made the pickup." But they had recorded it all. So they went and retrieved the tape and they took it back to FBI headquarters and they were all gathered around the table with a recorder >> to see who it is >> and they pressed play and it was their boss, Hansen. >> Wow. But this this is later on already in the late late 2000 no well 2007

[30:31] >> 200 yeah 2006 2007 something like that >> he got he got arrested in 2008 and actually he >> Okay so then this would have been 2007 >> yeah I think I think he he retired and then they arrested him >> who Brian >> no yeah Richard >> or Hansen or Hansen >> no I don't I don't think he had retired >> I think he was just about >> No you know what it was it wasn't retired they had transferred him out. >> Yeah. >> And he was like he was going to retire because he said for them to transfer him out like that to a lesser job, they were

[31:03] on to him. >> Oh, >> yeah. So, he had an assistant who wasn't really his assistant, >> Hansen. >> Yeah. Um I think his name was O'Neal. Um Eric O'Neal. We're we're connected on LinkedIn. So Eric O'Neal was actually there to spy on Hansen. >> Whoa. >> To see if there were any slip ups that would indicate that he was the mole. >> Eric was also an FBI agent. >> He was an FBI agent. He was an FBI analyst.

[31:34] >> And um there's a great movie that was made about it. I I don't remember the name. >> About Hansen. >> Yeah. About the whole case. The whole Hansen case. Eric O'Neal is a a hero in this in this movie. >> Breach. That's it. >> Breach. Okay. >> Breach. So, um, Eric O'Neal, the the stress was so was so awful in this case that he quit the FBI after >> Eric. >> Yeah. After Hansen was arrested. >> Wow. >> Interestingly enough, um,

[32:07] uh, Hansen hired my attorney to represent him and, um, I mean, they they had him dead to rights. There was he had no chance to ever win. and he ended up taking a plea and the only thing he got in exchange for the plea was that his wife could have his pension. >> That was it. He died a year ago or two years ago at the um at the Supermax ADX Florence. Yeah. He never saw the light of day. But there's a postcript to the

[32:38] story to make it even worse. So Hansen's been caught and Ames has been caught and what's the idiot's name from the counterterrorism center who just got out of prison two years ago. So >> when did he get uh arrested? >> Uh 200 >> Oh, this guy >> eight. >> Oh, so this is fairly recent. Yeah. >> Wow. >> He just got out a year or two ago. >> So I assume he didn't uh give too many secrets if he got out.

[33:09] >> Well, he did. He did 27 years of a 31 and a half year sentence. But to make it worse, this um he was a senior officer in the counterterrorism center when I worked there. >> Mhm. >> And um when Ames got arrested and he said this during his trial, his case, he said when Ames got arrested, he thought, "Hey, the KGB probably needs another mole. I'm going to volunteer." >> No way. >> Uh-huh. He was the station chief in

[33:41] Singapore. And so he just found the KGB station chief and said, "Hey, listen. You want to recruit me? I want this much money and I want, you know, X, Y, and Z and diamonds." And >> James was trying to keep keep his wife happy. >> Yeah. >> Who did he want to keep happy? >> He was divorced a couple of times. He's paying a shitload of money in alimony. He did it for the money. For himself. Just for the money. >> Got it. >> And he got caught. but not before he had outed hundreds of undercover CIA

[34:12] officers who then had to be brought in from the cult because they couldn't serve in Russia anymore. So, um they caught him and they sentenced him to 31 years and 7 months in prison. So, what does this idiot do? He calls his even stupider son and says, "Listen, here's this number. I want you to call this number. this is the KGB. >> And tell them that I'm going to give you information and you're going to give it to them and I want them to put it into a

[34:44] secret account so when I get out of prison I can still be rich. >> Wow. >> And of course the kid just like, you know, walks right up to the Russian embassy in Washington and the FBI grabs him. >> Yeah. Cuz like the Russian embassy is completely surrounded by FBI. >> I don't understand. How can they be so so naive? >> I know, right? >> Being a CIA. You spent 20 years in the CIA and you're that stupid. >> Yeah. I mean, >> you deserve to get caught just for stupidity. >> So, um, >> even Aldrick Ames, you know, since he

[35:16] started, you know, making all that money, he started, he bought a new car, he bought a new house, he was going on expensive vacation, >> Jaguar, I'm you know what I paid for my car? I still remember what I paid for. It was the first car I ever bought brand new. I treated myself to a Volkswagen Fox the week before I started working at the agency. I paid $7,200 for it. It didn't even have a radio. I had to buy a radio. There's my car. I had to buy a radio at Best Buy. >> Volkswagen Fox.

[35:46] >> Yeah, Fox. >> Mine was never that nice. Do do 1989 Volkswagen Fox. >> Oh, there. >> There it is. That the second one in. That's my car, right? Same color and everything. >> This This burgundy one. >> Yeah. $7,200. didn't even have a radio. >> Rick Ames is pulling in in a $80,000 Jaguar. >> How much was the salary for a case officer back then? >> Back then he was probably making it in the high 50s. >> 50s. Yeah. >> How much is it now?

[36:18] >> 150. >> Okay. It's not that bad. >> Mhm. >> But you never home. >> No. >> No. But you know what though? I I don't want to get too far a field, but you you rais a good point here. My first station chief told me I was complaining about the money and he said, "Oh, you just started overseas." He said, ' There are a lot of GS-15 millionaires walk in the halls. >> What's a GS? >> GS15 is that 150 level >> because you go overseas and you make your 150, right? And you get post

[36:50] differential 10%, 15%. And you get danger pay, that's another 15%. And then you get language pay. There's another 10 or 15%. >> There's such a thing as danger pay. >> Oh, there's lots of danger pay cuz you tell me you're my boss and you say, uh, you need to go to Yemen. >> Yeah. >> It's like, no, I'm going to go to London like him. Right. How come I go to Yemen? >> I go to Luxembourg. >> Exactly. So they have to give you danger pay. >> Well, in only what altogether eight months in in Pakistan, I came home and I

[37:20] bought a house. >> Wow. >> I had so much money. I I joked that they bring it to you in a wheelbarrow. There's so much money that you can make overseas. >> Usually people never do it for the money. >> No, I never met ever in my life a CIA officer who did it for the money. No. And neither did I. You do it because you're a patriot and you want to you want to serve the country. You want to you want to keep the American people safe. But >> are you a patriot when they come and recruit you or you become one afterwards? >> Oh, no. No. You're you're patriotic when they come to recruit you. >> Oh, so they're they already analyzed

[37:50] you. >> Oh, yeah. They've already taken a look at you. a good hard look. >> Yeah. >> Before they even come and approach you. >> Yeah. Normally, yes. In my case, it was different because I had this professor who was actually a CIA officer undercover as a professor. I mean, he knew me. I had I had taken his class for a good six months already. And and um he was like, "Yeah, I think I think you'll be a good fit. What do you say?" And the truth was I was getting married six six weeks after graduation

[38:21] and I didn't have a job and so what am I going to do like get a PhD and how do I feed myself and my new wife you know so what do I do >> so I said sure >> when you were in the CIA was that something that they made you learn to analyze people their psych >> Oh yeah yeah yeah there's heavy um training and and then my first assignment was in the the psych the psychology office it was the office of leadership development Velment analysis. Yeah. The the the office at the CIA that my professor had founded was the office

[38:53] that hired me. >> You've known me only for 30 minutes. Can you analyze me >> a little bit? >> I want to hear it. >> Um, I think that you are patriotic both toward the United States and Armenia. I think your politics are slightly right of center. Um, and we haven't talked about politics. >> Oh, a little bit. I can feel it. >> I we we spoke about religion. That's where you that's where you're picking that up from. >> I think religion is important to you. Um

[39:24] and I think you're a true believer in the American dream. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. For a couple of reasons. Uh we met each other and within 15 seconds you told me that you owned this business. That's impressive. There are Americans that have been here for eight generations that don't own a business. You've been here for how long? uh in the US since 98 >> and you own a business >> and you own beautiful artworks on your walls. >> That's the American dream. That's the the American success story right there.

[39:55] >> The only reason I said that is because when you entered my business name and you were confused. >> I was confused. I know. But you see what I mean? >> People to think I'm snobby just >> No, no, no. Of course not. That he just announced it. Yeah. When I walked in. No, no, that wasn't the case at all. But just in the course of conversation, like you and I could be talking about baseball and you'll say something that I'm going to have to file, you know, and then when I get back to the office, I would type it up and say, "By the way, he mentioned, you know, this whatever it is." >> That's that's interesting because what

[40:26] you're doing is also very important in business. >> Yeah. You know in business in the business world we also analyze people we deal with especially when you meet them for the very first time >> and you make a lot of decisions based on the first time you meet an individual you know yes you can meet with them numerous times and that will also help you to make a better decision but that first impression that first you know instinct >> it is you know it's important let me let me tell you a story after I left the CIA I went to one of the big four uh

[40:57] professional services firms deote in now it's called Deote and um I made a friend there uh who was a a young partner she had come from Ernston Young they made her a partner immediately she was only there about four years and then she took a partnership at Price Waterhouse Coopers so we stayed in touch and when my first book came out she called me and said hey would you come to our partners offsite and give them a >> pep talk >> and I said sure But like what am I going

[41:30] to what am I going to tell 140 Price Waterhouse Cooper's partners that they don't already know. So I gave it real thought. So I told them this story. I said, uh, when I was serving in Pakistan, we got word that there was a group of mid-level al-Qaeda people who went to the same Arab coffee shop every single day at 10:00. They would go in, four of

[42:02] them, and they would just sit and have some coffee, sit there and talk, and then they'd leave by 11, 11:30. When I was in Pakistan, for operational reasons, I grew a long bushy beard and I wore shawwar kamis. So, right. So, I fit in and I had an an Arabic uh language newspaper and I went in. I knew they were coming at 10:00. So

[42:33] I'd go at 9:30, sit there by myself with my coffee reading the Arabic >> newspaper >> newspaper and I never said a word. So they would come in and I noticed that one of them kind of glanced at me. >> Didn't stare at me or anything. He just kind of glanced. Yeah. And I didn't react. I didn't nod. I didn't you nothing. >> The next day they came in and he looked at me and I'm sitting there reading the paper and drinking my coffee. That went for a week. The second week I'm sitting

[43:04] there and he comes in and he nods. So I nodded back. That went on for another week. The third week he says to me Salam. I said walaykum salam. And then finally one day he came in by himself and I told him have a seat please. Yeah have a seat. Sit with me. We start chatting. Where are you from? >> This is all in Arabic.

[43:35] >> Arabic. And he says, "I'm from Egypt." I said, "Oh, are you here with your family?" "No." He said, "Uh, my wife is in uh is in Cairo with our daughter." He said, "Our daughter is nine, and I have a 5-year-old son that I've never met." His wife was pregnant when he came to make jihad, he said. So, I asked him what his plans were and he said, "I'd like to go back." He said, "I'm tired of the fight. I just want to go back and just be with my family and

[44:08] live live a normal life." So, we talked about that for a little bit and then I invited him to lunch. We went to lunch and we're sitting talking about his family and we're talking about jihad and and finally I said, "I like you. You're a nice guy, but listen. I said, "Please forgive me. I wasn't completely honest with you. I'm actually not Lebanese." And he said, "You have an accent."

[44:38] >> Just the slightest accent. The truth was my Arabic teachers were Lebanese. >> So that's how I learned it. I said, "I'm actually American." And he looks at me and I said,"More than that? I'm an American CIA officer." And I said, ' And I noticed that you're not running screaming from the room. He said, "I'm willing to listen."

[45:08] So I said, "You seem like a nice guy that this jihad thing, it's not for you." He said he was in Tora Bora hiding in a cave and we fired a cruise missile into the cave. >> He was one of only two people who came out of it alive. He called it the most hideous explosion he had ever heard. Hideous was the word that he used. And when he came out, his ears were bleeding. That's how bad it was. He said he just wanted to go home. Did you open

[45:40] up because he spoke about his family and how he mentioned >> it was all about the family. >> As soon as he started talking about his family, >> you got him. >> I knew I had him. >> That's what at at the CIA we call the operational vulnerability. So I said to him, "You don't need to stay stay around here." He said, "Well, I I I have nothing. I have no money. I have no passport. I have no way to get home. I

[46:12] said, 'I can take care of all of that for you. He said, 'Well, what do you want from me? And I there was something very specific that I wanted from him, which he gave me. >> Mhm. >> So, I worked with our Egyptian embassy friends. They made a passport for him. I bought him the ticket home. I gave him a substantial amount of money. How much? >> No, they they wouldn't let me say. >> Okay. >> Six figures?

[46:42] >> No, but for an Egyptian with a sixth grade education, >> it was a lot of money. >> Enough money to live the rest of his life. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> But it was less than six figures. >> Yeah. Not much less. >> Got it. >> But less. So, I took him to the airport and I said, "Before you leave, I have to ask you one question. Why did you allow me to recruit you? And without missing a beat, he said, "Because I've been here five years and

[47:14] you're the only person who ever asked me about my family." >> Mhm. >> So, you touched his heart. >> That was it. I treated him with respect. >> Treated him like a human. >> Like a human. So I'm I'm telling the story to these 140 Price Waterhouse Coopers partners and I said now you may be wondering why is he telling us this story? It's because what I did and what you do every day really aren't so different because it's all about the relationship.

[47:47] And that's what your argument is all the time, Dad. >> And I said, "Is it hard to just say, "How was your kids's little league game last weekend? Is your husband recovering from that, you know, elbow surgery? Where'd you go on vacation this year?" Just have a little conversation. Just show people a little bit of interest in their mundane day-to-day lives. I said, "Listen, if I can get this guy to commit treason, against al-Qaeda.

[48:20] You can win that contract at the Department of Agriculture. How hard is it? And it it struck a chord. I have a question. Uh you worked with John Kerry, you said. >> Have you ever worked with Adam Schiff? >> No. >> Because he was also on the the >> he was on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. >> Committee. Yeah. >> One of the lead uh >> uh congressional members on that

[48:50] committee. >> You never never worked with him at all. >> I have a very strong dislike of Adam Schiff. >> Why? Because Adam Schiff is really the antithesis of what liberal democracy really is. Adam Schiff never saw a war that he didn't want to jump into with both feet. >> Really? >> Yeah. He's been pro-war all the time. >> All the time. He pretends to be this liberal. >> He's been in office since 2000. So

[49:22] >> So Afghanistan, Iraq. >> Mhm. That's right. Somalia, >> Tunisia. >> Sure. >> Libya. >> Yeah. Libya. Absolutely right. >> Speaking of those uh North African countries, can you pull up that video by Have you I'm sure you've seen this video by General Wesley Clark. >> Oh, this is a famous video. Listen, I love Wesley Clark. >> You know him personally. >> He's one of the very, very few people at that level. >> I said, "We're going to war with Iraq.

[49:53] Why?" He said, "I don't know." He said, "I guess they don't know what else to do." So, uh, I said, "Well, did they find some information collect connecting Saddam to Al Qaeda?" He said, "No, no." He says, "There's nothing new that way. They've just made the decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's like we don't know what to do about terrorists, but we've got a good military and we can take down governments." And um he said, "I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer,

[50:23] every problem has to look like a nail." So I came back to see him a few weeks later and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He said, he reached over on his desk, he picked up a piece of paper. He said, "I just" He said, "I just got this down from upstairs," meaning the Secretary of Defense's office today. And he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out >> seven countries." >> Every word that you said, >> I I'll tell you a story. I've told it before, but it it's important in this

[50:55] context. When I got back from from Pakistan, on the strength of the capture of Auzu Zubeda, I was promoted and named executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director for operations. In that position, the executive assistant positions, all the big monkeys have at least one. You have access to literally everything that the CIA is doing around the world. >> Wow. >> Everything. So on my very first day, I was so excited.

[51:26] I went up and I said, I go, "So what are we doing?" And he said, "Actually, I can't tell you until you go to security and sign your secrecy agreements." And I thought, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm at a higher level now. They must be doing some crazy stuff that, you know, they can't tell me until I sign." Did you have to take polygraph test >> after pre prehire after 3 years and then every 5 years for the rest of your career? >> You take a polygraph. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And background investigations.

[51:56] So I go to security. They had six secrecy agreements laid out on a table. They were waiting for me. So I signed each one of the six. And I said to the guy, I I knew the guy. We had served together. I said, "So what's up?" And he goes, "Well,
