Title: The Legal Power Hour - with Guest: John Kiriakou
Show: Stack The Legal Odds In Your Favor
Date: 2017-09-05
URL: https://youtu.be/t87STIG3TpY
Duration: 39:00

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[00:10] hello everyone and welcome to the legal power hour where we Jam 60 Minutes of thought provoking discussion into a 30- minute show designed to inform awaken and protect our fellow American citizens H Tom Scott and Sarah aiti and today it is in Absolut pleasure to have with us is our guest Arlington Virginia former C CIA officer and New York Times bestselling

[00:42] author Kaku Welcome to our show John thanks thanks good to be with you absolutely um a pleasure to have you on if you could um viewers can we get the cliff version summary of your life of um viewers who haven't heard about you can you tell us how you went from your life sure uh it's a long story and I'll make it very very short uh I joined the

[01:13] CIA in January of 1990 as an analyst working in the director of intelligence uh I worked on Iraq for about seven and a half years got bored and um switch to um operations to counterterrorism operations specifically it was a very unusual switch at the time um served several more than several overseas tours after September 11th I became the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan and in that role uh led a

[01:44] series of raids that resulted in the capture of Abu zubeda who the CIA believed at the time was the number three in al-Qaeda I returned to headquarters then to become the executive assistant to the cia's deputy director for operations and I left the CIA in mid 2004 to go into the private sector now AB was a Beta had been uh tortured uh in a secret CIA facility I was asked before that

[02:14] torture began if I wanted to be trained in what the CIA was calling the use of enhanced interrogation techniques I said that I had an ethical and legal problem with that I thought that it was a torture program I thought that it was illegal it was certainly unethical and immoral and I declined as it turned out I was the only one of 14 people approached who declined to be trained uh but I kept the secret to myself for many years actually and then finally after I left the CIA in December of 2007 Brian Ross of ABC News asked if um I would

[02:48] come on his show he said that he had a source who said that I had tortured abuaba I said that was absolutely untrue I was the only person who was kind to Abu Zeda I never touched AA or any other prisoner and he said well you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself well President Bush in the meantime was lying directly to the American people by looking in the camera and saying we do not torture I knew that that was a lie and then finally he said

[03:18] that if there was torture it was the result of a rogue CIA officer and I knew that was a lie and I thought well by God they're going to try to pin this on me I'm going to just come clean and I'm going to tell the truth and I called Brian Ross and I said I'll do your interview and I decided that no matter what he asked me I would tell the truth and so I did and I said three things in that interview I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners I said that torture was official US government policy it was not the result of a rogue

[03:50] and I said that the policy had been personally approved by the president of the United States So within 24 hours the FBI began investigating me uh they investigated me for one whole year from December 2007 to December 2008 and then in December 2008 They concluded that I had not committed a crime and they closed the case against me a month later January 2009 Barack Obama is inaugurated Barack Obama the most

[04:21] transparent president in history I might add what I did not know was that the CIA had secretly asked Obama to reopen the case against me and so for the next three years the FBI was uh in my emails they were tapping my phones I was under FBI surveillance and then in January of 2012 I was charged with five felonies coming out of that original interview including three counts of Espionage the the gravest crime with which an American can

[04:52] be charged and which in many cases carries with it the death penalty so I fought those charges for uh for 10 months I was facing 45 years in prison which essentially is a death sentence I'm I'm 53 years old and so um eventually the government came back when they finally understood that I was willing to go to trial and I was willing to testify on my own behalf and talk about some of the Hideous things that I had witnessed in my 15 years at the CIA

[05:23] they came back with an offer of 30 months of which I would serve 23 um I actually turned that offer down and then one of my 11 lawyers pulled me aside and said listen this can be a blip in your life or it can be the defining event of your life I urge you to make it the blip he said if you were my brother I would beg you to take this deal and then another one of my attorneys said you seem to think that this is about right or wrong innocence or guilt it's

[05:54] not it's about cutting your losses the government doesn't lose its cases it's not going to get any better than this and so I took the deal and then I got out after 23 months and um and I've tried to move on since then John that's that's unbelievable I mean I'm still floored at what you've been through I mean I wouldn't wish it on anybody not my worst enemy I can only imagine um can you tell our viewers what

[06:25] you've been up to since you've gotten out of prison sure I um I'm trying to patch something together and I think I've I think I've succeeded I have two books that have come out since I got home one is called doing time like a spy how the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison and it's a collection of blogs that I wrote for prison which I got in serious trouble for but continued to do I wrote 19 of them um and and sort

[06:56] of a a howto book um the dirty tricks that the CIA taught me to use in training that I was able to use in prison to keep myself safe uh and the second one is the convenient terrorist it's a book I wrote with Joe Hickman a former Guantanamo guard when when the CIA turned over custody of abuaba to the military it was to Joe Hickman so I wrote half the book Joe wrote half the book and it came out last month I also have a a weekly syndicated column uh

[07:28] that runs on readers supported news.org and you know Washington has a reputation as being the city of Second Chances there's no second chance for me in Washington but there is a second chance for me in Los Angeles and since I've been home I've sold three different television shows to three different networks one with Oliver Stone um one with Alec Baldwin and one with uh the director Simon West who won an Academy Award for Blackhawk Down the show I sold with

[08:00] Simon has actually gone to Pilot and so I seem to find myself as a television writer now so you know little by little I've patched something together and it's turned out to be a decent living that's amazing it's certainly not CIA work I can tell you that you take an oath of office to defend and then you take an oath of office to defend um you know security and confidenti and everything else well when those two

[08:31] are in Conflict yeah right what if if the oath that you took to the US Constitution is in conflict and the oath that you took is in Conflict you have to defer to the higher authority absolutely which is the US contitution absolutely absolutely you defend the Constitution that's the that's the underlying fabric of our of our nation so I just don't you know I don't get it it's just in you know again the two sets of rules you know for for John kiraka

[09:03] there's one set of rules for Hillary Clinton there's another set of rules what's your feeling on that and how does I mean I'm upset just observing it never mind living it you know what I mean what what is what would you what do you have to say at that Hillary Clinton should have gone to prison for a very long time plain and simple uh but you're absolutely right Tom there are two completely separate sets of rules if you es especially under the Obama Administration I think Obama was probably the the wor worst offender of of of recent presidents although George HW Bush was pretty bad too um but if you

[09:36] were a friend of the president or you had four shiny stars on your shoulder you're gonna get away with murder you know General um General Campbell who leaked the fact that that the US intelligence Community had created the stuck net virus he leaked that to the New York Times because he was bragging about his own role in the creation of the stet virus he was a Ed he was charged with a felony a account of Espionage he was found guilty and before he was even sentenced President Obama

[10:09] pardoned him why because according to the New York Times he was quote the president's favorite General well if you're the president's favorite general or the president's favorite whatever or a friend of the president you're gonna get off now I was convicted I took a plea to confirming the name of a former CIA colleague to a journalist the journalist never revealed the name the name was never made public all right General Petraeus leaked the

[10:42] names of 10 covert operatives to his adulterous girlfriend but because he was a friend of the president he was charged only with one misdemeanor count of mishandling classified information he got 18 months of unsupervised probation and never served a single hour in jail not a single hour the day after his sentencing he went to Iraq on a mission for the White House he actually got to keep his security

[11:12] clearance so the the hypocrisy to me is utterly sickening you know I told Sarah earlier off camera before we started um recording the show that I try very hard to not be bitter to not be angry because it doesn't help me in any way to be to be angry but this makes me angry because the justice system is not just you know African-Americans often say that the justice system is exactly

[11:44] that it's just us well you know I feel the same way I feel like I got screwed by my government and Tom you make a very important Point here and that a point that point is when anything whether it's a law or a policy or a signed secrecy agreement is in conflict with the Constitution the Constitution wins out every time on my very first day at the CIA I put my right hand in the air and I swore to uphold and to protect the Constitution against all enemies

[12:17] domestic and foreign now I I can't believe that I was the only one of the 300 or 400 people in that Auditorium that day who took that oath seriously but I did I took it seriously without the Constitution we have nothing we have chaos it's the Constitution that makes this a great country it's the Constitution that allows us to believe in things like American exceptionalism well I took that very

[12:49] seriously y well like you just said it's not just uh threats abroad it's domestic I mean that's that's the whole when we get sworn in it's domestic and sometimes that's the greater threat you know um I think we should be policemen of the world and I don't think we should be doing all these things internationally that we are unless we're asked for help but you know certainly 100% the government starts and you know with the whole thing with these prosecutors and this is one of my cases that I have Going Back East right now

[13:20] against an attorney Joseph mot who's committed d a bunch of felonies in a particular case he's committed state and federal crimes perjury obstruction of Justice a conspiracy now I'm I'm trying to get the attention of the FBI and the doj which I don't know if that's going to happen or not but you know a prosecutor does not have to Pro I mean I could murder somebody and if they don't want to prosecute me they call it prosecutorial discretion yeah prosecutorial discretion absolutely absolutely absolutely and if they want

[13:51] to prosecute someone for spitting on the sidewalk or smoking in public someone like you you kind of just said with the general you know betray us you know 10 major instances of uh leaks of security and they turn a blind eye they have that prerogative so um one of thing I want to ask too is um the prison industrial complex which we write about in our book that's you know there's many many problems in the system no competition is probably number one but what do you think of the prison industrial complex

[14:22] the privatization of Prisons the police state that we're in right now wow I think this is one of the major problems facing our country today uh wow where do I even begin you know the United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison population now most of those prisoners something like 92% of them are in local and state jails and prisons so reform which is absolutely necessary it has to

[14:55] begin at the local and the state level um there's a wonderful book that came out in 2012 written by Dr Harvey silverglate who's a professor of law at Harvard University the book is called three felonies a day and silverglate argues that we are so over legislated in this country so over regulated and over criminalized that the average American on the average day going about his or her normal Daily Business commits three

[15:27] felonies so if they want to get you they're going to get you and there's nothing you can do about it I've I've written extensively about cases like a fisherman who caught a a hell it that was too small uh well instead of keeping it on board and letting it die and taking it into port to measure it to determine that it was too small he threw it back in the ocean well somebody

[15:57] saw him throw it back in the ocean do you know that that's a felony it's a felony and he was charged with a felony and had to go all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States now he eventually won but how many millions of dollars of the taxpayers money was wasted to prosecute this fisherman for throwing a fish back in the water there was a woman who worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in Hawaii who was charged with a felony count of interfering with the feeding of a wife

[16:28] wild animal for whistling at a whale she whistled at a whale as it was eating a seal and the FBI uh decided that it was necessary to break down the door of her house at six o'clock in the morning to haul her out and confiscate all of her electronics and all of her business records and she was utterly ruined she ended up taking a a plea to a misdemeanor a misdemeanor charge of violating The Endangered Species Act or some nonsensical thing

[16:59] uh but is this really the way that we need to to prosecute cases in this country do do these people really need to be in prison is society better off having the fisherman and and this woman from Noah in prison I think not now my experience uh was in the federal system it's my understanding that private prisons are far far worse than government uh prisons and it's because of the the profit motive the only way

[17:31] for private prison companies to make money is to um save money on food and on Medical Care I've written extensively about this so you have people dying literally dying in prison because they're they're not getting Medical Care uh well you know they are bad people in prison but most of them don't have a death uh death penalty uh case and whether the government likees it or not at whatever level local state or federal

[18:03] they have to take care of these people now I I personally believe that we made a a terrible mistake during the Reagan Administration and extending through the Clinton Administration Bill Clinton actually made it far worse um with this so-called War on Drugs what we did is we incarcerated an entire generation of people you know when when one out of every four black men in this country is either in prison in jail on probation or

[18:34] on parole there's a problem and in the meantime the government's done nothing to restrict the flow of drugs into this country so that coupled with the fact that they've phased out um educational programs they've phased out training programs they phased out counseling and therapy all you're doing is you're just incarcerating people and all that's going to do is piss them off and eventually they're going to get out and they're going to go back home and they're going to be angry and they're

[19:05] going to be broke and they can't read and they can't write and they have no job skills and what do you think they're going to do they're going to return to a life of crime so the money is better spent on education and on training and on drug and alcohol therapy than on incarcerating more and more and more people and hoping that you can just arrest and prosecute everybody who's broken a law the entire system is broken from the prosecutors to the judges to

[19:36] the prison administrators it's broken John what are some of your suggestions as to how to address our our broken legal system first I think we have to decriminalize and indeed I think we have to legalize marijuana you can't imagine the people who are doing hideous stretches of time on charges related to marijuana I'll give you an example and this is just an anecdote but this is something that that has really stuck with me there was a guy

[20:07] in my housing unit who who arrived about a year after I got there his family never missed a single weekend he had a lovely wife and three beautiful children and they visited him every single Saturday and I asked him one day what are you in for and he said I got caught trans uh transporting 12 pounds of marijuana and I said what did you get he said they gave me 12 and a half years and it wasn't even his he said he was he was

[20:38] being paid to Move It from point A to point B he was a mule and I said 12 years for Weed really and he said yeah 12 years he said to make matters worse he said I had a successful heating and air conditioning company and I employed 10 people so he said when I got arrested and prosecuted not only did it ruin my family and he said for that I take responsibility but I lost my business in this isolated rural area in Pennsylvania and 10 people

[21:10] were thrown out of work so is society really better off because this guy's locked up for 12 years for having marijuana in his car I think not the first thing we need to do is is end this ridiculous War on Drugs we need to legalize marijuana and treat it like alcohol sell it in liquor stores have the government tax it it's not addictive it causes less uh uh harm than cigarettes or than than alcohol it should be legal that's the first thing

[21:42] the second thing is we need very very serious sentencing reform now there has been a bipartisan Bill in Congress since 2015 it has passed committees in both the house and the Senate when the Democrats ran the Congress and when the Republicans ran the Congress But Eric Holder was against it and Jeff sessions is against it and so neither uh Harry Reid nor Mitch McConnell would allow it

[22:14] to come to the floor of the senate for a vote okay this has bipartisan support and it would be to reform the sentencing laws and to do away with most mandatory minimum sentences you know we've got the sentences now where you can be a firsttime non-violent drug offender first time nonviolent drug offender and get 10 years 20 years 30 years in prison first time there's no second chance now if you

[22:46] have attacked and raped a child yes you should die in prison if there's violence in your case definitely if there's a gun in your case sure you should be in prison but if you're out there smoking weed or maybe you get caught for the very first time you're manufacturing meth or something or you have a substance of abuse problem uh you shouldn't be in prison at least not for these ridiculous stretches of time now another thing that needs to be addressed right away at every level

[23:17] of the uh of the prison industrial system is that in our country for whatever reason we treat mental illness as a disciplinary problem rather than as a medical one and so the prisons are filled with with crazy people who should be in hospitals not in prisons and I'll give you another example one of my cellmates was a guy named James James um was on federal probation

[23:49] he was homeless he was living in a cardboard box under a bridge in Pittsburgh and he violated the terms of his probation just so that he could spend the winter indoors right you violate parole probation you do three maybe four months uh uh inside well he purposely violated in October so he could spend November December January and February indoors have three Square meals a day and maybe some medical care so he got to

[24:21] uh to the prison this is three months be uh three and a half months before I uh I went home he got to the prison he was assigned to myself and he came in his first day put out his hand introduced himself around hi guys I'm James this is what I'm in for and he said I'm gonna warn you about something he said I am certifiably insane he said I make no bones about it I'm insane but if I'm on my medication I'm okay if I'm off my medication I'm

[24:53] going to apologize to you guys right now I'm going to be nuts well sure enough they wouldn't give his give him his medication they saidwell you're only here for four months this medicine's expensive we don't want to spend you know a thousand dollars a week or whatever it was to give you your medication so he had no medication well guess what he went crazy and they ended up doing what they do with all crazy people they put him in solitary confinement which made him even crazier now the United Nations has declared the

[25:25] American form of solitary confinement to be a form of t torture which it is I'm telling you it's torture and he went even crazier in solitary so what did they do to address his craziness in solitary they stripped him naked they beat him to a bloody pulp and they threw him outside and I'm talking about in January they threw him outside now I had a friend who was in the cell next to him Jesus who was cellmate of of a friend of mine he told me later that for the first hour or

[25:56] so James cursed them from outside in the snow and then for the second hour he apologized he asked them to let him back in then he cried and begged them to let him back in and finally he curled up into a ball and he fainted and finally once he was unconscious that's when they brought him back in well guess what that's illegal that's a felony that's torture but that goes on in American prisons every single day and there's no recourse it's just like you see in

[26:27] Orange is the New Black who you going to believe a law enforcement officer or some convicted criminal that's that's chilling and um that the like you just said it you know who you going to believe the law enforcement or the convicted felon and that's that happens in court and you know we write about that as well they're going to certainly believe a law enforcement officer's word somehow a badge magically adds credibility to testimony right that's going on in prison right now is as far as the

[26:58] torture and Isis I mean no that's no not at all yeah one thing one thing I want to ask you too John is from the Washingtonian and this might have to do with the what you just address somewhat it says everyone with authority in prison is lying can you elaborate on that a little bit is that kind of kind of what you were just talking about right now yes um in part that is what I'm uh talking about

[27:29] um I got in trouble one time because I was having a phone call with my wife and of course all calls are recorded and my calls in particular they would listen to Live just because I was a I was a high-profile troublemaker and so I told my wife that uh I said you know every Everybody I've met in here and I mean from the guards to the administrators to the warden himself they're all degenerate Liars well as soon as I hung up the phone I was called to the Lieutenant's office I was berated for for saying that they were all degenerate

[27:59] liars and I I looked at the guy said but you are you lie to us every single day every word that comes out of your mouth is a lie and I said you know I was eligible for for nine months of halfway house the warden told me that he would recommend me for nine months of halfway house he didn't he lied he recommended me for five months of halfway house well my unit manager told me that my five months was what I had coming to me it was mandatory that I got five months it

[28:30] was my minimum of of uh halfway house time which in my case would be converted into house arrest but that was a lie uh what happened was in the in the sentencing computation office in Texas they decided that I was so much of a pain in their ass that they weren't going to give me any halfway house time at all so I said you guys lied to me at every single level so the maximum amount of time that I could have spent in prison was 23 months and I spent 23

[29:03] months finally the warden approached me after lunch one time one day out outside the cafeteria am I allowed to swear on this uh show sure yeah I'm gonna recount the the conversation exactly as it took place the warden pulled me aside and he said hey I know that you called me a liar but uh I said yeah I did you know I I'm sorry if you're offended by that but but you did lie to me and everybody's lied to me and he says well you know why they you don't you because you keep

[29:33] writing that damn blog and I said Warden 23 months 20 months 18 months what's the difference I said I have gone NOS to nose with Al-Qaeda with Hezbollah with the Iranians with some stupid divorce attorney do you think I'm afraid of your prison to spend another two months here or another five months here I'm not not afraid of you guys you can't do anything to me that hasn't already been done and he just kind of harped and

[30:04] walked away and that's how we left it now let me add one more thing if you are the Crooked wife of the chairman of the house Judiciary Committee and you get sentenced to 22 months in a camp cupcake minimum security Camp you get 12 months of halfway house so you actually only do 10 months in Camp cupcake and the rest of the time you do it at home wow that's the way it

[30:36] works you know for a while there I I wish that I was married to uh the chairman of the house Judiciary Committee I mean it's unbelievable I mean has this whole experience just made you see our government and oh our legal system and a so so corrupt you know what I did I I'm third generation Democrat and uh and I ran screaming from the Democratic party when this all happened and I join the Libertarians and

[31:07] I'm under No Illusion that the Libertarians are going to win a presidential race I I know that the libertarian party is is a small party but the Libertarians are the only ones talking about these issues the Libertarians are the only ones who were talking about protecting and respecting the Constitution so I'll tell you another thing um I I the in in the last election that I was allowed to vote uh 2012 I voted for Gary Johnson for president Gary Johnson was the libertarian party's

[31:39] nominee for president and he's the former Republican governor of H New Mexico I really believed in what Gary Johnson was talking about well when I got to prison i' had been in prison about three weeks and lo and behold I get a letter from Gary Johnson and he says that he followed my case he thought i' had been screwed and he wished that there was some way that he could help me I immediately wrote back told him I was a big fan a supporter I had voted for him in 2012 and thank you so much for

[32:10] the kindness of paying attention to my case what I did not know was that he had also written a letter to Eric Holder saying what's wrong with you let this man go home so at least he can work and support his family it was a very generous thing to do and he didn't tell me that he had done it learned about it later through a Freedom of Information Act request well when I got home from prison two years later one of the first calls that I received was from Gary Johnson W and he said that uh he was running for president again and he hoped

[32:42] he could count on my support and I said Governor I said I am with you all the way and so I joined the board of the libertarian party and I traveled with Governor Johnson to 18 states uh on the campaign in the three weeks before the election we went to 18 states across the the west and the Midwest everywhere from kalamazo to Anchorage Alaska and um I was a proud libertarian I remain a proud libertarian you know

[33:13] I've come to the conclusion and and I I I've been a lifelong political animal I've been in Washington since the week after I turned 18 years old I'm very very political I always have been but I've come to the conclusion that on these big thematic issues there's really very little difference between the Republicans and the Democrats you know there are little differences around the edges of these issues but in terms of the big themes the big policies they're essentially the same and they're both

[33:45] corrupt and the only party that's talking about freedom and liberty and the rule of law and respect for the Constitution and foreign entanglements is the Libertarians yeah yeah that's true I'm actually a Libertarian myself so and for the same reasons for the same reasons you know the the Constitution gets used as a dmat by the by the Republicans by the Democrats it really is no different you got big government for individuals or

[34:16] big government for corporations then you go all the way to the other end of the spectrum want basically no government right I cut this out of today's Wall Street Journal cops and robbers all rolled into one this is an oped on the use of um uh what do they call it civil uh civil forfeiture right you can be stopped uh for speeding let's say and uh you've got $10,000 in your pocket because you're going to go buy a used car and the cop says why do you have $110,000 you say I'm gonna go buy a used

[34:47] car cop says I think you're a drug Runner you've never been charged with any crime you're just a guy driving down the highway maybe you didn't even get a ticket for speeding but he can legally take your $10,000 that's called civil asset forfeiture and and this piece again this is in the Wall Street Journal which is no liberal newspaper it says that the federal government seized four and a half billion dollars from people who had never been charged with crimes versus $3.9 billion dollar that robbers stole from robbing people's homes and

[35:19] and businesses the federal government is actually responsible for stealing more money out of our pockets than burglars and robbers are responsible for and and a big happened during the Democrats too this is not just on Jeff sessions this happened during Eric Holder as well I wrote about it extensively and this is what I mean when I say on these big thematic issues there's no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans well as Americans we should be up in arms over this policy we should be in the streets over this policy and we're not it's

[35:51] horrible I mean I I've tweeted about it I'm totally against it I mean it's one thing if if you're convicted of a crime and then the government comes in and and takes your assets but now with the program they have you don't even have to be convicted no they just suspect it they look you don't have to be even formally accused gonna do a crime or might do a crime and they take it I mean that's a violation of your due process it really is it's a constitutional violation and it's it's appalling to me

[36:23] and somehow the Supreme Court has not found that and I don't know why I think it's a travesty well it might it might come up before The Supreme Court you never know I hope it does now does that article John mention the bill that's been recently introduced by Senator ran Paul no actually and I was disappointed that it didn't um it's it's long on numbers and um and a couple of examples but it does not mention Rand Paul's uh

[36:54] uh Bill no and it should it frankly it should have been based on Rand Paul's Bill like you to mention the books that you've written while in prison and the new one that you just launched and um Sarah if there's anything else that you'd like to ask John as well you know I I want to say thank you to you for for your honesty your integrity and for agreeing to be very much a guest on our show I mean your story is unbelievable but believable in an odyssey sadly um

[37:25] and it's just it's something that I think every everybody needs to know because like you said if somebody wants to go after you and get you for something they will they will people need know that that this can happen to anybody not to somebody who worked in the government you know it can happen to any normal average American and and that's a message that I think we should we should be um uh trying to explain trying to to pass to your your viewers that this can happen to anybody it's not

[37:56] just me because I was in the CIA or Ed Snowden because he was in NSA or whatever it is this can happen to absolutely any American if they don't like you they don't like your politics whatever the reason they don't like your attitude they can dig deep enough that they're going to find things to charge you with and there's almost nothing you can do about it so uh thank you both my my books are doing time like a spy how the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison and the convenient terrorist

[38:28] thanks for having me this was a lot of fun thank you again John thank you AB absolutely John and just to close for our viewers I'd like to mention that they can catch our show fresh every first M Monday of the month in time I'll you at any time afterward right here on our YouTube channel also be sure to subscribe to our blog where we discuss not only the material we've discussed in this show but other very very topics as well which you can see at

[38:59] www.st oi YF and if you want to protect yourself to the fullest extent possible against our wildly corrupt legal system of our book stack the legal odds in your favor and please use the link provided under this video as well as you will be help as you will help support our part partner Mr John kiraku as well out that he's just kindly so shared with us on this show so once again John

[39:32] thank you very much for being on our show it's been uh an exceptional and informative discussion thank you so much thanks for having me thank you John thank you
