Title: Former CIA officer John Kiriakou on the Obama administrations war on whistleblowers
Show: Citizen Radio
Date: 2013-01-23
URL: https://archive.org/details/citizenradio_2013-01-23
Duration: 60:00

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[00:00] Our goal is to bring you the news, talk about stories that the mainstream media isn't covering. You guys are insurrections. Yeah! On par with the badness of yesteryears. That dude loves to kill people. Loves it! Genocide! We're very pro-catching bad guys, which is why we wish you fucking idiots weren't so distracted with a fake war to get oil. Easy, okay then?

[00:30] Four times. I'm trapped in this hypothetical and I can't get out. We need a sound effect after we do something ironic. I'm something to think the media is a bit of a sham as well. Jamie has a hunch. We'd go to jail for it. Da-da-da-da-da. Crack. Photo protest. Let's go, you guys. I apologize for 80% of the show. Right. I apologize for the other 20. Papa, don't sing that tune. Just try to take a stand. I mean, try to stand for something. Why not to be a fucking coward?

[01:00] Citizen Radio. We are CitizenRadio.com. What's up everybody? Welcome to Citizen Radio. DIY Radio, broadcasting from the People's Republic of the Internet. It is Wednesday, January 23rd. I'm one of your hosts, Jamie Kilstein. I'm Alison Kilkenning. You can find us at WeAreCitizenRadio.com. Subscribe to the show for free at WeAreCitizenRadio.com.

[01:32] And find us on Facebook and Twitter. What's up, Papa? What's the matter? I was going to say what's up Allison and Maniacs, and I tried to say them at the same time. Whenever I know we have a good guest, I assume that guest is listening. Yeah. And then I get nervous. You guys, we have a hell of an episode for you guys. Oh my god, I can't talk either. Oh my god, I'm nervous as well. I'm not as nervous because I'm not telling like dad jokes yet. Right. That's when, that's when you know we're in trouble.

[02:02] Yeah. Right. Yo, who else was in trouble? Bill Clinton when he can't keep it in his, something, the penis. Boo. That happened. Boo. So we have a really, really awesome interview for you guys today. John Kiriakou, he's a former CIA officer. You've probably seen his name a bunch in the news. Well, not the establishment media news. More like, We've talked about it. Maybe Fire Dog Lake and Democracy Now and Glenn Greenwald and us.

[02:33] We've talked about it. All of our friends have talked about it. He's the sixth whistleblower. The Obama administration has indicted under the espionage act. I'm sorry. You probably mean the George W. Bush administration. Nope. The Obama administration. I'm sorry. You probably mean the Ronald Reagan administration. The Obama administration. I'm sorry. You probably, what was Taft? Was he a Republican? Whatever. So in fact, Obama has gone after whistleblowers more than all of his, the people who serve before him combined.

[03:04] You pronounced Ronald Reagan as Obama. Who is it? Will I am? I want my tears back. I want my tears back from your goddamn propaganda video. Now listen and fall for it. Stupid old Jamie. Jamie really liked that video. He sent it to everybody. I voted for Nader after I sent it to everybody. I voted for Nader. So not only do we have this awesome interview, a little bit of breaking news in it as well.

[03:36] Which means we're going to play the interview first. Yes. Since we are on a dumb ass day delay, we're just hoping he doesn't tell anybody what he told us by the time you hear this. Actually, I'm not sure even that we're the first media outlet that he did tell it to. It just sounded as though he was telling this bit of news for the first time. Therefore, I'm going for it and just saying it's breaking on a citizen radio. Am I a liar? Maybe. You decide. So you can follow John.

[04:06] He's on Twitter. And it's just his name. John J-O-H-N. And then his last name is spelled K-I-R-I-A-K-O-U. And there's a change.org petition that I'm going to link to in the episode recap and also tweet from the citizen radio account. And I highly recommend everyone signs it. Notable people such as, you know, Madeline Albright, Ralph Nader, Oliver Stone. You guys, when Ralph Nader. You have all signed it as well.

[04:37] When Ralph Nader and Madeline, I've killed so many children Albright can come together. Exactly. Daniel Ellsberg. I mean, really notable people have signed it. They only need 600 more signatures. That is completely doable. So please head over there. Share it on Facebook, on Twitter. And yes, I think that's all I wanted to plug for that. Yeah. So Allison did this interview solo because since John has

[05:10] been under such scrutiny, I was outside the apartment doing counter surveillance and making sure we weren't being monitored and definitely not doing jujitsu and was late. Jamie just had a pair of binoculars and he was looking for drones. That's true. There were no drones. Good news. That's the good news. But a lot of bad news in the interview. Also, some people didn't understand that I was looking for drones. So look, was I running from the police because people thought I was a creepy pervert?

[05:41] I don't know. Did you try to shout and explain to them what you were actually doing? Yeah, of course. Yeah, it didn't work though, right? Well, no, I was shouting. I was shouting in my pervert voice. I do that when I'm nervous too. I don't want to hear the pervert voice until after the interview because I don't want to scare off new people. Right. Immediately we'll scare them off once they start to listen to the show regularly and they realize what kind of show it is. But until then, here's our very responsible interview with John. Penis. So just for our audience members who maybe aren't

[06:14] familiar with your case, you're a former CIA officer who blew the whistle on waterboarding and exposed torture policy. And in October of last year, you were convicted of passing along classified information to a reporter, correct? That's correct. Now, you struck up a plea deal 30 months in prison. Sentencing is coming up January 25th, right? Right, day after tomorrow. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about your

[06:46] evolution from a CIA officer to becoming a whistleblower. When did you decide you would become a whistleblower or was he even a conscious decision for you or did you think you were just, you know, commenting on illegal torture and not really taking a political stance? You know, I've learned so much about the psychology of whistleblowing since this started. This is kind of a new world for me. I did not set out to be a whistleblower. And in fact, I've learned that no whistleblower

[07:17] ever sets out to be a whistleblower. But there were two things that were sort of milestones in my decision to go public. The first was early. I was still inside the CIA and I had just come back to headquarters from Pakistan where I had been the chief of counterterrorism operations. And I led this raid in Faisalabad, Pakistan, in which we captured Abu Zubaydah, who we thought at the time was the number three in al-Qaeda. That turned out to not be true.

[07:47] But we believed at the time that he was the number three. And when I got back to headquarters, a senior officer pulled me aside and said, listen, we came up with these techniques. We're calling them enhanced interrogation techniques and we want to know if you want to be trained in them. And I said, well, what's an enhanced interrogation technique? And he laid it out for me that this included waterboarding, putting people in dog cages and all these different things. Fleet deprivation. And I said, oh, wow.

[08:17] I said, I have a moral problem with that and I don't want to be involved. No. And I turned it down. It turned out that they had asked 14 people if they wanted to do it. Two of us turned it down and then one of the two changed his mind later and got certified in it. But I had a problem with it and I was uncomfortable with it as a policy. And then in December of 2007, news broke that the agency had videotaped instances of waterboarding and had destroyed the tapes.

[08:49] So a journalist called me and said, we have evidence or not evidence, we have a source. He said, who says that you tortured Abuzabeta. And I said, that is absolutely untrue. I never laid a hand on Abuzabeta. We're on any other prisoner. In fact, I was the only person who was kind to Abuzabeta. And he said, well, you can come on the show and defend yourself, which I later learned, of course, was an old reporter's trick. So I went on ABC News and defended myself.

[09:20] And it turned out that I did two things in that interview that were sort of groundbreaking. First, I was the first former or current CIA officer to confirm that the CIA was torturing prisoners. And second, I said that that torture was not the product of rogue officers but was a policy, an official U.S. government policy that went all the way up to the president. And from that date forward, the FBI

[09:53] never stopped investigating me. And it resulted in felony charges a year ago. that was one of the questions i had for you you know i very few people know what it's like to be targeted by the fb i and the justice department in the way that you have been so i just wanted to ask you what if the effects in your everyday life then since you were singled out in this way it's been devastating you know i worked with the fb i'm most of my adult life and i had a lot of respect for some of the fb agents that i work with and

[10:26] no respect for others but to be on the receiving end of an fb i investigation is devastating that the twenty four-hour a day surveillance like heavy in your face surveillance they follow you you know when you go grocery shopping with your family they follow you to uh... to restaurant they follow you to doctor's point they've been followed me into church one sunday and sent two agents in in the church to fit in the queue behind me and just stare at me out for the church service so that that kind of get you down it makes you paranoid and then you end up being

[10:59] surveillance where you might not have it and it's just very uh... it's it's a very uh... emotional psychological tool that you think they use against you uh... but even more importantly uh... you you lose friends uh... you lose your natural support group not because they think you're a bad guy but because they don't want to get involved they don't want to make the fb i angry at them uh... they may have doubts about what you did

[11:30] and that's not even to pay the the legal fees that you rack up life i've racked up legal fees approaching now a million dollars and it would take the multiple lifetimes to pay off a million dollar legal bill well this is all the more extraordinary because no one has gone to jail for actually torturing or or forming the policies that allowed torture are you actually the first cia officer to receive any jail time uh... now there's other cia officers in the past who received

[12:02] jel time for you know committing real crime to embezzling money or uh... uh... the uh... the former executive director of the cia was uh... was an illegal war profit here or or spying for the soviet let's say but i don't know of the torture are you the friend i don't know no i'm the only i'm the only person nobody nobody else has even been charged with a crime in fact the president said when he when he took office in two thousand nine that we're gonna look forward not backward and these people just following orders and

[12:35] and so uh... no there are no charges against anybody but me well that was my next question i wanted to get your opinion on president obama's whole philosophy that we have to look forward and not backward when it comes to torture i used to think that that was a good idea because i thought that the only people who would really take it on the chin in a federal investigation with the people the working level and the big marketing box would get off scot-free like they always seem to do but now that we know more

[13:06] about who was involved and how many people were involved it just it makes me sick to my stomach that that this was a this is a program in a policy that really was on quite a large scale uh... with people at every single level of the cia and the national security council and in some cases the justice department and nobody is facing them in the music for committing serious crimes i mean we that we didn't have al-qaeda prisoners or alleged al-qaeda prisoners

[13:37] who were killed during their interrogation and and nobody nobody face charges for that well i think a lot of people may not understand the the full extent of the obama administration's war on on whistleblowers you're actually that the sixth whistleblower uh... indicted under the espionage act for allegedly mishandling of classified information yes that's that's true there's actually been a seven person charged uh... it's a uh... a man who uh... was a translator at the american air american

[14:09] navy base rather in Bahrain uh... the guy in the entire history united states until brock obama was elected president there only three people charged with espionage and uh... and just since obama was elected president there have been seven people charged with espionage so the justice department can deny all at once that they're targeting whistle blowers i think the evidence is quite clear that they are targeting whistleblowers going back to you know the act of torture itself we've been discussing the film zero dark thirty a lot on our show

[14:41] so i wanted to get your thoughts on first of all that film which leads its audience to believe torture led to the capture of osama bin laden but also torture you know in general do you believe torture works uh... no i'm i made a terrible error in in two thousand seven when i said that i thought in the isolated case of i was a beta torture may have worked and the reason i said that is because inside the cia we had been told that i was a bit of his water boarded and he provided actionable intelligence

[15:14] well we know now from the inspector general's report that was released in two thousand nine that that was just simply a lie and i think what happened was the cia it was torturing out of the data before they had the legal authority to do so and they covered up that torture by reporting it as a one-time incident we know now that i was a bit of a torture something like eighty seven times and the college shake mohammed a hundred and eighty three times or whatever it was and you know if you if you want to go

[15:46] waterboarding a hundred and whatever it is time you're going to admit to kidnapping the limbered baby by that point and so the answer is no it absolutely does not work it does not work and we shouldn't be doing it we i know that that the official policy now is that we don't waterboard uh... prisoners but there are other enhanced interrogation techniques that people have not focused on that i personally believe are worse than waterboarding and i frankly don't know if we stopped doing that and that's the that's the official line that we no longer torture but

[16:19] oftentimes we handoff detainees to other countries to do torture yes and that's called extraordinary rendition which i think is just such an obviously illegal act i don't understand why there's not international outrage over this and we we have we have uh... proven cases now cases like maharara for example in canada maharara was a canadian citizen uh... of syrian descent he was kidnapped by the cia and sent to syria

[16:49] where he was tortured despite the fact that he was carrying a canadian passport he was sent to syria he was tortured mercilessly and then the cia and the syrian said you know what we got the wrong guy and so he was let go after something like ten months or twelve months uh... living in some dungeon in damascus uh... we haven't even given maharara an apology let alone tried to make good on this awful experience that that we imposed on him is there any indication or protest effort to pressure the president to

[17:23] commute your sentence yeah um... thanks for asking that there are a couple of things ralph nader and uh... bruce fine who's an eminent uh... constitutional attorney uh... as well as jill cladeberg i'm sorry claybrook who uh... heads ralph nader some uh... organization public interest organization sent a letter to the president a week ago asking him to uh... to grant me a pardon uh... there's a change dot org petition uh... that had nearly two thousand signatures asking for a commutation

[17:57] and then the greek american community and i'm a greek american very proudly so the greek american community has come through in a big way with their own petition and letters from prominent uh... greek americans around the country and then finally there's a there's a letter that uh... has been signed by more than a dozen and a half cia officers fb i agent so i served in pakistan with and notable americans like pete seager and um... all over stone uh... and daniel ellsberg asking for the president to commute my my sentence

[18:30] what do you think is inspiring that this weird inverted justice system where whistleblowers like you who are actually trying to uphold the law are the ones being punished while the perpetrators of actual crimes like the architects of the iraq invasion and torture not only go free but are rewarded for their crimes i think a lot of whistleblowers myself included are seen by many as people with big mouth people who broke the code of silence and i think it's a natural

[19:00] human reaction wrongly of course but a natural human reaction try to cover up a crime before coming clean about it finally and the thing is that this program was just so widespread and so big it was going to get out it was going to be investigated by congress it was going to be hit the press it's a shame that the cia reaction to that was to deny and to cover up and then to come after me but that's what they chose to do

[19:31] we've just seen in tragic case of uh... hacker erin swartz how the justice department can oftentimes be guilty of prosecutorial overreach uh... especially if they're trying to send a message to other potential activists uh... do you feel like you were targeted uh... perhaps to intimidate others from coming forward and speaking out against torture oh i do indeed uh... the new york times has already reported that many of their national security sources have just completely dried up

[20:01] and i think that's exactly what the point of my prosecution was and i'm gonna tell you another thing and this is something that that hasn't gotten out yet though uh... but i'm gonna tell you anyway my attorney's just recently discovered a document showing that while i confirmed the name of one c i-office or involved in the torture regime there was a second c i-office or who provided the same reporter uh... the names of ten undercover uh... officers as well as information about uh... counter terrorist operations and flight plan plans for the black flight going to the secret prison

[20:33] but that c i-office or was not investigated and was not prosecuted and the only conclusion i can draw is that it's because he didn't blow the whistle on torture i think that the that the justice department made a decision in two thousand seven that they were going to come after me and they were very patient and they just waited until they could cobble some some charges together and that's what they ended up doing so i made this point during the interview oh thanks again to john uh... as i said please follow on twitter please sign that petition because to me

[21:03] what is so maddeningly horrible about this is that john is looking at serving thirty months in prison for not torturing anybody but blowing the whistle on torture and torture policy and not a single c i-o official who actually tortured who actually came up with uh... the policy of torture is looking at serving any time or is being investigated yeah um... it's so so that is

[21:33] i think the war against whistleblowers is right up there with the drone strikes and possibly expanding the war in afghanistan with uh... the obama administrations crimes not closing guantanamo look there's a lot we can get into the crimes of honey boo boo i mean what's what's the deal with that show all i can't stop it i can't stop you're still nervous this is yeah yes let it go oh my god all right um... so

[22:03] did you have anything you wanted to add about that before i get into i wrote a little something for the nation oh yeah this is big too yeah that i wanted to get to about the inauguration but specifically about the media's coverage of the inauguration we talked about it yesterday did you include in your piece because i haven't read a check the dancing oh no no i talked about what we talked about on the show just briefly how they were like so it was an all-day marathon of coverage on msnbc about this inauguration and there's only so much the pundits could actually say so they started to get into stuff like

[22:35] michelle obama's bangs and her outfits and yeah at one point they were like is can the president dance and that turned into like a 20 minute long thing where like chris mathews was like weighing in on if obama could dance and then eugene robinson came on and was like i know for a fact he can i was like what is going on and apparently cnn had the worst coverage that's what's even worse yeah we you know watched the so-called liberal msnbc coverage and it was you know terrible as well but at what point richel maddo i'm sorry i think he meant george bush

[23:06] richel maddo remarked that no protest permits had been requested and allison looks at me it was funny i didn't even know you were writing an article this morning because i was like gone all morning and uh and i see everybody i see glenn greenwald kevin gostola uh nima posting your article nima was the funniest because it was like the best article of the day allison colkeny takes down smug rachel maddo and i was like what the fuck is this about and then i flashed back to watching it with you and you very calmly being like

[23:36] did people get protests and i was like i don't know and then you like squinted him and like yeah that's a really flashy way to say what i basically did which was a very boring thing i just found an article where it was like actually five groups did request permits and here they are uh that was the big smackdown it was just like actually that's not true and and i mean that is in addition to all of the non permitted actions that were going on because there were a bunch of them as well um there was a big you know drone protest and march and and there were hundreds of people you know people we agree with and people we really

[24:11] don't agree with like the west borough baptist church who are a bunch of crazy people um but regardless there were hundreds of dissidents protesting obama and you know um there were a bunch of like anti-poverty groups who had gathered and none of this was covered by the media i mean the media really dutifully pointed their cameras at the presidential parade the only kissing up that should have been done to that family was when i believe sasha photobomb melia trying to

[24:44] take a picture of michelle and obama i usually not a sucker for here's the the president being cute because i'm like you kill kids but i was like damn that was an awesome gift right um so what i thought was significant was rachel mato made this comment while they were covering the the you know president's parade where they're in the the limo and it's very slowly crawling down the road and if you looked at that crowd lining the street it looked like there was universal approval for the

[25:14] president right because he's an awesome guy and why would we ever protest him because we are a unified country and we support the president looking um and in fact there was a group called um answer which is um speaks out for the unemployed and demands jobs and justice they actually brought a legal challenge um to federal court because that route is reserved for um the presidential

[25:47] inaugural committee certain spaces along that route are reserved for the presidential inaugural committee and they had gotten a permit to protest and they wanted to protest there um so a us district senior judge paul freedman actually came down with a ruling where he agreed with answer he's like you know first amendment rights you should have the right to protest however the ruling came in and there wasn't like enough time for it actually to apply to answer so it didn't end up doing anything for them right and he also you know um didn't address the underlying allegations

[26:18] that the regulations uh represented a violation of the right to assemble um but it was interesting because when maddo was saying you know nobody submitted a request for a permit it has a really creepy chilling effect because that's basically saying you know no one has any grievances against the president and that's not how the country works that's not how activism works like oftentimes people don't even request a permit because it's so you know onerous like there's all of these

[26:52] like loopholes and you know like all these hurdles you have to jump out through and you know over and um can i can i just make two quick things um the thing that concerns me the most i agree with you 100 but the the the problem that like jumped jumped out of me right away was the fact that and we talk about this when it comes to the daily show and the way they treat activists so you have rachel maddo who was known um as you know one of the biggest liberals out there right i mean just

[27:24] say the words rachel maddo to your republican grandfather and watch his face just like contort right no yeah and conversely you have a bunch of liberals that rely on rachel maddo for the news right we've had rachel maddo on the show yep um what scares me is that someone who is so liberal someone who is so left of left who has done great things on certain issues who every time she's on meet the press it's like a different fucking show where you actually have someone

[27:55] pushing back right um when she just blows off protests like that so much it shows me that she doesn't care about protests because she is one of the smartest people on television whether you agree with everything she says or not she's one of the most intelligent people there is road scholar blah blah blah um so when she is so far fucking removed from activists and protests and stuff like that that's a really scary thing especially because you have 18 hours to fill

[28:28] that you're filling with can obama dance that's a good point you have time while chris mathews is going i don't think obama can dance to jump on your fucking blackberry or iphone and google well people get a couple things i mean i think you you highlight that to a certain extent even though someone like rachel maddo is um you know brilliant and aware of an activist community i think to a certain extent she relies on um the coverage establishment media coverage

[28:59] like many people do on on cable news where it's like unless because she's not a beat reporter right she's not on the ground interviewing people so to a certain extent she's just relying on the information that's being fed to her sure um and then also i think you bring up another point which is omissions and factual errors like the one rachel maddo made during the inauguration wouldn't be so catastrophic if rachel maddo wasn't as far left as you could get on mainstream news right if

[29:29] there was somebody like if amy goodman had a show on msnbc after rachel maddo and she was like well actually there there were protesters and we're going to interview them right now and you know here's me you know in the field with them it wouldn't be so catastrophic when rachel maddo makes perhaps like you know just an error you know like uh being fed the wrong information you know into her ear nobody uh requested a permit and she just repeats it you know oh man i just figured out what msnbc would name her

[30:00] And I'm disgusting Amy's answers Yeah, you almost bit that water So I got some stuff. Yeah. Oh, so if everybody could share my article on Twitter and Facebook Oh, yeah, yeah, it's getting a lot of play that would be awesome. I'm gonna read it when the show's over Are you maybe we should end the show early so I can go read it No, I trained you hard today and I have a headache. That's unfortunate because I have things to say tomorrow's my last day with Aniki. Oh No, do you have a an Aniki advent calendar? Countdown to my broken heart. Yeah, no, it was just awesome

[30:33] We just sparred for so long And then I had to go to my regular practice and pretend that I didn't work out before And I had to roll with Marcelo. Oh my God. I couldn't move. I couldn't move So I have a couple of questions announcements and a story or a thing to talk about The oh and then update so update Lloyd Irvin we've talked about the Lloyd Irvin rape case. We've talked about rape culture

[31:04] We've talked about people in the jiu-jitsu community fighting back, which is awesome. He finally put out a very long apology letter However as pretty as the letter is and you know He shows a lot of concern for the girl who was raped. It's not You know victim blaming which is all which is sad that that's refreshing to see right, you know Lloyd Irvin It was his for anyone who doesn't know It was Lloyd Irvin's two of his students raped another one of his students

[31:36] It's on camera, but then it came out that Lloyd Irvin the coach of the school Was also investigated for a gang rape 10 years ago Which he got off the hook because he said he couldn't get it up when it was his turn to do the raping So therefore he is just a witness to a terrible gang rape who was gonna rape if he got a boner So it's horrible and disgusting so, you know look he it's The bad news first. He's a businessman. The letter is very savvy

[32:06] You know my teammate Ben Wrote essentially in quotes on my Facebook. I'm not gonna give you the sugar-coated version And then he gives the sugar-coated version right like there are no details and stuff like that, but Still more the Notre Dame and and this is what happens when pressures put on you where you had family members of teammates you had Stars in the jiu-jitsu community coming out calling for something statements disbanding the team all this stuff and

[32:38] It forced him to at least as crappy as the apology may have been or not even crappy as Insufficient as it may have been It does show what happens when you put enough pressure I think that might have something to do with the fact that Lloyd was more accessible than like Notre Dame's coach and like Administration, maybe I mean he like you have see champions like he's well the fact that he's around like fighters every day And these fighters have families and some of the families were putting, you know, like we're

[33:08] Outrage in the bottom line is like the thing he's been accused of forever is like he is a Businessman, yeah, and he's a marketing guy. So he knows for his business so many people are shit-talking you got to put something out Yeah, but if that was the extent of the reasoning that goes into something like this you would think Notre Dame would be like well, we really don't want to piss off our fans. Yeah, but I mean I feel like it's like Because like women watch football Right

[33:39] And who don't like rape watch football a lot of women football and Notre Dame I feel like are such institutions whereas Jiu Jitsu is very new to the you know what I mean? Like Notre Dame is not gonna get shut down like they know The people who go to that school and people will always want to go to that school Will support their team the people remember, you know Lord the difference between Notre Dame and Lloyd Irvin is you know where Notre Dame is that town Pretty much relies on them for money, you know what I mean? Whereas like Lloyd Irvin is in like an office building somewhere like he doesn't yeah

[34:13] That's true like Lloyd Irvin doesn't run Maryland doesn't have the cultural contribution Then not to say that, you know, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is lesser than football It's just Notre Dame is this huge institution as you said and as we see in things like the government and the Catholic Church It doesn't matter if there's a lot of corruption Yeah, I'm gonna get to the story tomorrow cuz I didn't read it yet But apparently another child fucking priest was like just let back into the parish. That's what they do But uh, but John might go to jail just yeah, sorry John

[34:45] Sorry, you tried to blow the whistle on torture should have had sex with a kid as a priest Well, don't do that either John John I know we don't have to tell you this but I've made a tactical error Has led you astray Look, okay, so a couple things You're you're you're you're wonderful maniac Wrangler Camille Because she cares about all of you more than me is

[35:17] Begging me to do this thing that could be a nightmare It's the veg the veg fest vegetarian festival in Worcester, Massachusetts Will any of you go? Because sometimes I do vegan shows for the Woodstock Farm Sanctuary and it's a bunch of fucking LGBT progressive tattooed awesome people and it's the greatest show of my life Sometimes I do a fucking raw food thing in the middle of the afternoon in New York my hometown where I don't have to drive to Worcester and

[35:52] And I'm depressed for two weeks. What time is the show? I don't know, but I don't know I don't know So, let me know if people who didn't make the Boston show live near there Maybe I'll do it Let me know I can't explain to you how vehemently Jamie rejected this just the other day So I'm pretty stunned that now he's considering it. I'm telling you he was like Camille He was like legit mad at you. Yeah, legit. I was like, oh, she thinks it'll be a fun road trip. All right

[36:26] Well, I'm like goddamn adult and I don't I literally said this I'm like, I'm an adult now I don't get excited for road trips Fucking Camille Camille Kerouac or whatever the fuck you think you are and then she wrote me again today And she's like it's an all-volunteer staff and like, I don't know it'd be really cool to see one of your shows and I was like Maybe That's how you get Jamie to do stuff you give him one freak out day and then you approach him again It's like so you'd be a bad person

[36:56] Why would you do? Sometimes I think I work for my assistant and it freaks me out All right, so and then the other thing is Because I am a professional I'm I have a fight in Montreal Two weeks and I was like well, maybe I shouldn't just go up to fight Can I be honest with you sometimes like what you just said? Like your life is so weird like my life is so what you have going on that. I'm like man. I'm glad that's not me

[37:28] Yeah, I Was just like ooh no, thank you. I have fun with Camille on your stupid road trip. Thanks. I'll be home with the cat Or you're gonna fight a man. Oh, maybe three if you maybe more if you make Thank you. Yeah, no, thanks. No, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be fighting I'm gonna be fighting my battle with all this delicious food that I have my warm apartment Have fun crossing into another country to have someone try to rip your arm off Jamie texted me today And he was like so cold because he was walking from one practice together and I was literally at the time

[38:02] Sitting on a heating pad wrapped in a blanket with the cat with a little cup of tea now and my little kitty cat Why did I have a gloves or hat or a scarf? Jamie had to get up at like four o'clock in the morning and didn't want to go rifling through the dresser and wake Me up, so I was just like this switcher. It'll do It was it was so cold. It was so cold in her So so I'm the best husband in the world. We got that out of the way. Oh, right. So when I fight in Montreal I

[38:32] Contacted the venue that I played Just for laughs when I when I did my one-man show it just for laughs in Montreal So February 10th at night. It's a Sunday. It's really last minute, but they really want me to do it It would be a 1030 show On a Sunday If there's enough people to go I'll do it

[39:02] so One of the maniacs already started a thread Which Camille will monitor on the Form if you go to we are citizen radio calm. There's a form you guys should also hang out in the form There's great vegan boards LGBT boards You can talk about the show It's a really cool place. Lots of you have made friends off of that. So let me know Montreal Worcester Fun Canadians love you and Canadians are cool. I know I didn't think I was gonna go for the year I got a bunch of awesome people who are like, I'm gonna road trip from Toronto and then people that were like come to

[39:39] Nova Moosehead there's a population of 10 people, but I think you'll really like it here Nova Moosehead and we don't have heat did you mean Nova Scotia and Nova Scotia because I think Nova Scotia is an actual city and I didn't want to seem ignorant Yeah, I gotcha. To mask my ignorance. Nice. So am I gonna come to your tiny town for no money to play in front of two people? No, I can't.

[40:11] But am I gonna come to your fair country to play in Montreal City? I've been to, yes. And if you guys go road trip, if you can't road trip, whatever, I don't know. I completely, I was getting mad at some of the Facebook comments I had in my head. People were like angry at me for not going to their city that I've never heard of. No. It happens. Look, we love you guys. I try. Maybe they were just like projecting because there's no way they can travel and they were mad. Totally. When I'm famous enough that like actual venues

[40:42] offer me gigs in like funky cities and stuff, I have more fun in those small cities. I'm not like an elite piece of shit. Like some of my best shows were in like Iowa and like weird parts of Texas. And you know, I... Those other places that aren't New York or California. Your freak cities. Your mutant freak cities. Remember when you said Texas, like it was an exotic place? Yeah. I mean that place. I went to Texas. The place at the bottom of the country that... What do people want from me? Clearly had some sort of like a mutation sewage accident

[41:14] that is destroyed. All right. So yeah, I love doing those. Cause sometimes you do New York and everyone agrees with you. And you know, it's, it's all right. But when you go to kind of more conservative areas, you find all the outcasts in those areas. And they're so happy to see you. They're so much happier and it's so much more fun. So I really, one day you guys, I'll be able to pull that shit off. But right now I got to stick to my people. So yeah, so write me about that. And then do, do, do, do.

[41:47] Okay. So, Alison and I promised that we wouldn't talk about Twitter drama on the show. This is the second day in a row you've, you've said that. And then I got into Twitter drama. This is, but this is what happened. This is the equivalent of me being like, all right, I'm going to start eating healthy today. One more day. And then I start, I start fresh tomorrow. Okay, I'm sure. And then I'm like, I'm kind of carb crashing. So like, well, I got to fix that, obviously. So one more day. And then I'm, and then I'm robbing a bread factory. And that's why we're not allowed near bread anymore.

[42:23] So we got an email from John. The subject is, I'm sorry. So I'm already, From who? The guy named John. So I'm already mad. I love this podcast. I love you guys. I agree with you almost always. Almost, huh? All right, that's fine. I'm going to move on. I donated my Facebook account. I'm a member. I just went out to see Jamie show in Seattle. He could be making all this up.

[42:54] But anyway, that's my preamble to show you that I'm a fan and a supporter. Oh, he's so scared. But I would always feel afraid to criticize anything you said or even make a playful sarcastic comment on Twitter or elsewhere because you would instantly block me. Just wanted to let you know that as a supporter and fan, that's how I feel. Now, Camille wrote him back. And I actually really, Camille did an awesome job. Camille, I didn't know you responded to complaints. You were so much more professional than we are.

[43:24] All right. Hey, John, Camille here. I asked Camille if I could read this, by the way. Thanks for your note. Of course, we have no intention to make you or anyone else feel this way. And it makes me sad to hear that you do. I'd like to explain a few points that I think will make you more comfortable. But if they don't, please let me know and we'll keep this conversation going. First, intelligent criticism needs to happen. Always with everyone. And I want to make sure that you feel like you can disagree with us without being immediately banished. Because in actuality, it happens quite often. Yeah, trust me. You guys don't agree with everything we say.

[43:55] Yeah, I like these people who, not John, but like the people who are like, you have no idea. Like we get tons and tons of feedback and it's not all glowing praise. No, and a lot of times we get really good feedback and we've covered it on the show. What usually happens is someone goes, hey, you were a fucking real piece of shit we're talking about this vegan thing hippie. And then I'll go block and then I get a notification that's like, you know, that his next tweet is like, oh, so pussy, Jamie Kilstein can't handle the truth

[44:25] and blocked me. And it's like, right, I don't want to engage with a fucking asshole who's not gonna listen to me. Who's on my Twitter screaming. So, do, do, do. I have a good, I know I have like so many examples of. I mean, we've issued corrections on this show. Gay Allen has done that I think a few times where he will cover something. And yeah, there was a study about GMOs or something and he emailed me. Oh, yeah. And he was like, actually there's a ton of problems with this study and like sent me links to articles

[44:56] and like, but it wasn't an intelligent way. Like he wasn't blaming us. He was just contributing to the conversation. So yeah, we issued a correction. And we like read his letter on the show. We read a bunch of people. Yeah, it happens all the time. So, I'm gonna keep reading emails and then I'm gonna kind of explain why I felt the need to read this. What doesn't promote true discussion is a quick biting tweet with no citation. I'm sure we're not the only ones who hate that. If you disagree with something or think we've missed a point, by all means please send us an email. Well thought out discussions never happen on Twitter

[45:27] like ever. Second, I believe you're specifically referencing the guy Jamie and Allison talked about on Monday. I'm not sure if you've seen the tweet, but the exact tweet was at Citizen Radio. Okay, Jamie's cred is a sensitive dude as well established. Can we have less about Kim's sobbing and more alt media news please? Really problematic for a variety of reasons that Allison did a good job of communicating during that episode. Another person used that segment on the show without seeing the original tweet that set it off to say loudly and rudely and often each of us getting the tweet, I got a DM.

[45:58] So the dude just started DMing fucking Camille. It was a fucking barrage. The differing opinions were not accepted on Citizen Radio. So now we have a guy that's just straight up harassing Camille. We didn't stuff him out, but we did point out that he was missing the major part of the story, blah, blah, blah, having a different opinion and trying to shame someone for displaying emotions are very different. And something that both Jamie and Allison whole dear is having. It's not censorship if you are harassing someone and they block you. Correct. So anyway, so Camille goes on for like four other paragraphs, which like, you're a saint.

[46:33] But yeah, the reason I want to get this across, I mean, first of all, John, you're banished, obviously. Obviously. You can never listen to the show again. God help you if you try to see me in Seattle. No, he seemed really upset. I'm just kidding. You're not banished. Allison and I walk a fine line. And the fine line is being a political show, being a comedy show. The other fine line is we deal with bullies every day on this show, whether those bullies are in Washington, whether those bullies are misogynists, homophobes,

[47:03] whatever. Jamie and I both have to deal with this all the time. And that's not to complain. I just want to give some perspective about why people are like, why are you so mad? Why are you so sensitive? And it's like, well. Well, I've been getting threats all day. Yeah, like if occasionally we do seem like we're being harsh, it's because this is like the 100th week we've gotten. Right. And so, you know, and we understand like that's part of the, you know, whatever being in the public eye. Yeah, but it's not part of being in the public. You don't have the right to harass me and intimidate me

[47:35] and volume me. Right. You don't go on like your fucking face, your Facebook account. That's not feedback. That's not intelligent conversation. Like that we want, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, that's a really tough balancing act because we know that a lot of you, like us, are introverts and shy and sometimes awkward and timid. Like we're the same way, you know, Camille told me this great story about this, this sort of online group she belonged to. And the guy did a meetup and the meetup was great

[48:07] and like a ton of people came, but they were really clean and really whatever. And he had to put out a statement the next day on YouTube that was like, guys, I'm just like you. Like I'm shy like you. You know, so like kind of take it easy. And you know, when Allison and I are getting right-wingers, misogynists all day calling us fucking morons and then you think it's funny to ironically call me a homo. I don't have time to go to your profile

[48:37] to find out you're not a bigot and that you were being sarcastic. I just lump you in with all the fucking homophobes that constantly tweet me, you know what I mean? And I'm just like, all right, block. Somebody came up to me at a show and she had me sign her poster and then she goes, this is in Boston last week. She goes, also, can you unblock my friend? And I go, what did your friend do? And she goes, he didn't tell me. I go, well, your friend can email to Camille what he did, like a teacher. And if it's fine, I'll unblock him.

[49:08] But if you think it's funny to use hateful language, if you think it's funny to, you know, specifically like do something we ask you guys not to do. And like the problem with talking about this is A, unfunny people don't realize they're not funny. So us saying this, they don't think we're talking about that. Don't be mean. But then the people who are the most shy and the people who we actually want to hear from hear something like this. And they're like, oh my God, I'm so scared to tweet them now. And this is why, I mean, look, if you look at Allison on my Twitter, like most times that I get emails

[49:38] from the citizen radio thing, you see me literally right back. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Like you, like I have a, I enjoy talking to you guys. I enjoy hearing from you guys. The only time I angrily respond or block is if you're fucking hateful, if you're a homophobe. If you're rude, don't be rude. I mean, it's really easy. And I can guarantee you that the people who are scared to do it are. probably will never be the people we're talking about. And rude doesn't mean don't challenge. Challenging is fine, but just like in a respectful way. Like we want you guys to challenge us

[50:09] and to think critically and that's all great. And I wish I could just have Alan, Big A Alan like teach a class on how to do this because he does it all the time. He emails me constantly. He's one of our, you know. And I love Alan, yeah. And like, so I mean, but he's always respectful and he's a sweetheart and very funny. So be sweet, funny and engaging like Alan. Yeah, I mean, look, oh, actually Alan, Alan will, I bet you money. He will write a post on the forum about how to do it. But like Doug Stanhope,

[50:40] who's one of the most offensive edgy comments ever. Me and him after a show once sort of bonded over this, this hate mail and like the harassment, like on like a forum, for example, when you block someone on the forum. And you know, guys, if you think there's any comic who, I mean, Doug's gotten mad at me because I've said people shouldn't say other things. I mean, this dude is like free speech to the fucking max. Like we don't really talk anymore because of it. We were talking after a show and he goes, dude, I've done the same thing.

[51:10] And because we are either on the left or like pro free speech or whatever, the first people, you know, they always shoot back with like, I thought you believed in freedom of speech. And he's like, that's like walking into my house during a party and taking a shit on the floor of my house and being like, what, bro? I thought you said I could come over, you know what I mean? And it's like, you guys, I promise you, Allison and I, Jesus Christ, I did jujitsu with one of our listeners today. We're good people. We love you guys. We love hanging out with you guys.

[51:41] We love engaging with you guys. We love intelligent discussion. I am a 100% staunch vegan. I have argued with people online about veganism, but I'm not an asshole because if someone comes up to me at a show and says, hey, I'm just a vegetarian, like don't be mad at me. I'm like, that's awesome. You know, like I hope you can become vegan. I hope I can help you do that. But I'm not a dick. I'm not going to be like, what the fuck aren't you vegan? You know what I mean? Like we're- I mean, I'm always shocked that we have like Republicans and Christians and people in the army who listen to

[52:13] and like the Marines who listen to citizen radio. No one is forbidden from listening to citizen radio. In fact, like we think it's really cool that people who don't agree with everything, we believe in, listen to the show. I think it's amazing. You can get through the full hour, but we really, we like it. Yeah, kudos. Unless you're just sitting and using it to like fill your hate bubble. Right? In which case, stop. Stop, stop it. Guys, go listen to like fucking Rush or something. Oh, I kind of have a story, like a jujitsu story

[52:43] about- The maniac. Rolling with the maniac. Yeah. So one of our listeners, Rachel was visiting New York and no big deal because my coach is the best jujitsu guy in the world. She came to train and we rolled one of her rounds together and she's a purple belt from Delaware, I believe. And I was like, all right, time to go easy and flow roll with one of our fans. And I go for a choke and I am immediately in a triangle immediately.

[53:15] And I am choking. And here's what I visualized and here's the reason I didn't tap and here's the reason I just stayed there choking until she got tired enough for me to escape. In my head, all I pictured was choke the shit out of Jamie, hashtag citizen radio. Why would she even do that? I don't know. She wouldn't, she wouldn't. Yeah. But I fought through it and then I accidentally gave her a bloody lip. Accidentally gave her a bloody lip. Look, I'm pretty sure her knee hit her lip. I don't believe that.

[53:46] Rachel, I apologize on behalf of citizen radio. I did not abuse one of our listeners. 50% of citizen radio apologizes to you, Rachel. Look, look, she made, she corrected me on something I said in a prior episode and I need her in the fucking face. And John and John, I know you live in Seattle now. Rachel, I'm sorry. I'm sorry too. I didn't do it. I stayed light. Did you? Were you right into the show? Do it. Did you mean you did do it? No, I didn't do it. But you did do it.

[54:16] She came up to me afterwards and she said, I know you weren't going that hard. Rachel, I'm sorry. I had to have, she almost killed me. I don't understand. Yeah, really? How about you? How about you defend me? Were you guys rolling and she caught you in a triangle? It was a weird triangle. Really? Yeah, it was like an inverted triangle. Was it weird because? Because it worked. Because it worked, yeah. Well, it didn't because I fought it. By kneeing her in the face. I didn't even use my strength to put my massive 140 pound strength. I'm kidding. Well, that's cool that she didn't flip out.

[54:48] No, she was awesome. And then she got to roll Marcello. That's awesome. Yeah, which was awesome. Terrifying. Well, I'm glad you got to enjoy your visit, Rachel. Yep, and then one of our maniacs, Alex, from I think Upstate, who we got to start Jiu-Jitsu. I think he's gonna come down to the gym as well. Awesome. Yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna keep a list of all the maniacs I choke out. Nope. Rachel, number one, mounted choke, no big deal. You should just carve it into the wall. Of Marcello's gym. No, I was thinking here. So you can see it every day. I can do that.

[55:18] Let it fuel your age. So yeah, so I only keep track of maniacs that I choke out. So yeah, all right, Alex, I'm coming for you. Okay, so in the five or so minutes we have left, I want a TL at Ben Nelson. That guy. Former Senator Ben Nelson. Hey, fancy. So he has become a lobbyist. And this is very unsurprising because a lot of politicians do this, but who he is working for sort of stood out to me.

[55:49] So he's working with this group called Agenda, which I mean, they probably could have picked a better name, but what they essentially do is they lobby politicians. So they're clientless though. This was amazing. And I appreciate, you know, we don't often shout out Politico, but the way that they, the order of the client list was hilarious. So AT&T.

[56:21] They spy on all of you. Eli Lilly and Kid Rock. So I post this and the first comment on my Facebook wall, which is the correct question, is why does Kid Rock need a lobbyist? But then I was thinking about it and I'm like, how often are people requesting Kid Rock? He probably needs an entire lobbying firm to go into Washington on his behalf and say, listen, you should really hire Kid Rock.

[56:52] And here's why. Aggressive lobbying, aggressive lobbying, aggressive lobbying. Cause nobody's gonna think of that on their own. Nobody's like, you know what would really make this event? A rock. A drunk. A Kid Rock. Republican. Oh. That's all right. Are you nervous still? About that? Yes. Are you nervous because your husband was almost choked out by one of our fans? I'm nervous because you're walking around and meeting people in the face, apparently. Look, it was her own knee. I stayed light. Make a comment about Ben Nelson.

[57:25] Are you gonna knee him in the face? Ben Nelson. Don't say that. More like I'm gonna full Nelson him and then knee him in the face. I wouldn't have even brought up this last story if I thought it was gonna end in bad puns. Ben Nelson, more like bin lobbying. I'm gonna hit you in the face, get you in a triangle. Don't hit me in the face. Don't hit me in the triangle. I wonder if that's where my headache came from. Allison, look me in the eye. Is it the guilt? I should have tapped out five times. Yeah. It was so tight and then she goes,

[57:56] she goes, man, was that not on that tight? And I was like, oh no. Oh, that's totally where your headache's from, dummy. You mean getting the circulation cut off to my brain? Getting the oxygen cut off, yeah. Did I tell you that I choked her out afterwards? And then, and then I had the chance to choke her out again and she goes, thank you for not finishing that and for doing it very light. I'm not a spazzy partner. Rachel helped me. Oh, then, all right. So she gets me in the inverted triangle, right? So I'm like, I'm just gonna post my hand to help me get up. I swear to God, she grabs my arm

[58:28] and while I'm triangle, she starts comoring my other arm. Good for you. And I go, what the fuck has happened? This was within five seconds. We literally slap hands. I pass guard. I'm instantly being choked. And then she grabs my arm to the point where I had to hide my arm from one of our fans. I literally just put it behind my back. I was like, nope, nope. It was so horrible. It was the worst. Alex, I'm gonna take it all out on you. All right, we're out of time. I'm glad we ended on you threatening a maniac. You're going down. This completely just erased all of the good work we did

[59:00] saying, don't be afraid of us. Unless Jamie's looking at you in the face. In which case, fucking run. Alex. Run. Alex, I cannot stress it enough. When I pass guard, I literally just drop my knee onto your face once I pass. So enjoy that. Aggressively. All right, so, oh, and Rachel is actually very good at jiu-jitsu. It was fun rolling with you. Camille, thank you for responding to John. John, you are in no danger. And thank you for supporting Citizen Radio. Citizen Radio is predicated on the fact

[59:33] that we are a dysfunctional neighborhood of outcasts and we never want you guys to feel ashamed or afraid or anything. Just don't be a dick. Don't be a dick. It's really simple. Don't be a dick. All right, we'll see you guys tomorrow. My name is Jamie Kilsen. And I'm Allison Kilkenny. I'll turn off your radio and fuck shit up. You
