Title: Why CIA Torture Was Illegal and Ineffective
Show: The Kiriakou Report
Date: 2026-06-26
URL: https://youtu.be/lQYGh8EnFag
Duration: 9:00

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[00:00] door [music] the West Wing. He escorts us in straight into the Oval Office. >> [music] >> There's the president, the vice president, the national security advisor, the CIA director, and then my boss and me. >> [music] >> The president says, "Gentlemen, please sit." So, we all sit, and I'm looking around, and I remember [music] saying to myself, "My friends would never believe me if I told them where I was right now. >> [music] >> Never believe me." So, the president says, "Well, now what do we [music] do?" And then everybody turns and looks at

[00:31] me. And it took [music] me a second, and I said, "Oh, um Mr. President, as you know, [music] Iraqi troops I have chills right now thinking of it, just remembering it. I said Iraqi troops crossed the Kuwaiti border >> [music] >> uh at 2:00 in the morning. They seized the entirety of Kuwait. The royal family has fled to Saudi Arabia, you know, blah blah blah blah." >> [music] >> And he says, "Do we know who is in charge in Kuwait right now?" >> [music] >> I said, "Yes, sir, we do. The Iraqis made an announcement that Dr. Ahmed Khatib

[01:01] >> [music] >> uh is now the occupation governor of Iraq." "Do we know anything about him?" I said, "Yes, sir." I had actually written an article about him a month earlier just because he was interesting to me. I said, "Yes, sir, he's a medical doctor. He hates the royal family because his mother was a slave >> [music] >> uh in the household of the royal family. They had slavery until 1955 in the uh on the Arabian Peninsula. >> [music] >> So, I said she's a Sudan- she was a Sudanese slave um to sort of make up for

[01:32] it. When slavery ended, they [music] sent Ahmed to the American University of Beirut. He trained there as a doctor, >> [music] >> but his college roommate was George Habash, and together they founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." [music] And the vice president says, "Jesus Christ!" Like that. And the president just goes like this, and he says, "Gentlemen, [music] thank you. That'll be Fair I need to think about this. Well, later that afternoon, [music] Margaret Thatcher famously now called

[02:03] him. He genuinely didn't know what to do. >> And you're talking about Papa Bush. >> Papa Bush. >> Yeah. >> [music] >> And she said, "George, now's not the time to go wobbly." Next thing you know, [music] we have six aircraft carrier battle groups on on their way to the Gulf, >> [music] >> quarter of a million ground troops, and we liberated Kuwait >> [music] >> February 1991. >> Wow. Wow. And and you played a role in that at How were you 30 yet? >> I was 26.

[02:33] >> And and did you Was there any part of you that's like, "I shouldn't be here. I don't really know what I'm saying." >> Oh, everybody has imposter syndrome. All of us did. I remember thinking, you know, "Why me? Who am I? I'm just some guy from Pennsylvania. And here I am sitting with the president, telling the president what to do." But you know what? I I liked it. I enjoyed it. It was exciting. I was on a plane once from

[03:03] Milan to Sofia, Bulgaria. I never talk to people on planes. I just, you know, put in my earbuds, read a book, whatever. >> You did that purposely not to blow your >> Not to blow my cover. >> Okay. >> And there's this guy next to me, this Italian guy. He's the whole flight. And and I'm trying to give him one-word answers. And what they taught us in training is they ask you what you do for a living, just tell them something that's so boring that they don't ask follow-up questions. >> [laughter] >> Cuz usually I'd say, "Oh, I'm involved in training. We we

[03:35] train people, you know, who do international trade and import-export." And and people are like, "Oh, that sounds great." And that's the end of it. So this guy Finally I said, "Okay, look. I smuggle women and cigarettes from Eastern Europe. Are you happy now?" And he goes, "Well, I don't think I approve." I said, "I didn't ask your [ __ ] approval." And then he just kind of sat there like this the rest of the flight. And I thought to myself, "Finally. >> [laughter] >> At least I didn't blow my cover." >> Yeah, yeah. Hey guys, I think a bunch of

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[05:08] of the rising young superstars? >> No, that is a very, very political position. And there have only been three, I guess, directors over the years who were career CIA officers. Everybody else has been an outsider. A former FBI director, lots of generals, which I think is always like historically been a big mistake. >> And And why would they want generals? >> I don't know. You get four shiny stars on your shoulder and they think that you're Superman, you can do anything. And it was my experience that people became four-star generals by saying, "Yes, sir."

[05:40] You don't want somebody in that position to say, "Yes, sir." You want somebody in that position who can say, "Mr. President, let me tell you why that's a terrible idea. Right? You need somebody with the the wherewithal to stand up to the policy makers. >> So, it's so clear to me that you still love and revere the work that you did and that you were one of the fortunate people in this life who actually got to do something that they both dreamed of. >> I thoroughly enjoyed my career. >> Yeah, you you you enjoyed it. >> But after 9/11 everybody went nuts.

[06:11] They just went nuts. They acted like the law, whether domestic or or international, meant nothing to us. We were the good guys. We had been wronged. We were going to take revenge. And you're either with us or you're against us. And if you're against us, then get out. >> I know that torture and the question around torture ends up becoming a place where you you you raise your hand and where you object. And I know that that ultimately metastasized, but just give us a version of that for people who don't know the story. >> Well, I was one of 14 people asked if I

[06:43] wanted to be trained in the use of what they called enhanced interrogation techniques. I was the only one of the 14 who said no. I believed it was illegal. Besides being immoral and unethical, I thought it was illegal. It was illegal. It was clearly illegal. Any [ __ ] can read the law that we wrote, the the Federal Torture Act of 1946. Anybody can read the the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Cruel and Inhumane Treatment. And I mean, it it doesn't get any clearer clearer than that. >> Take me Take me through torture. So,

[07:14] you're one of 14 people who they ask they they ask, "Do you want to get trained in this?" And you're like, "No, it's illegal." Take Take me. >> Yeah. Buddy of mine in the Counterterrorism Center who happened to be a psychiatrist, MD, PhD, and a Brigadier General in the Army. And we go to the same church and we're in the same men's group. He said to me one day, "Buddy, you know, you know, they call you the human rights guy behind your back. And I said, "Yeah, I know."

[07:44] And he said, "You know that's not a compliment, right?" And I said, "Steve, I'm right and they're wrong. And I'm comfortable with my position." Well, that was not the popular position to take. And so, they kind of squeezed me out, but I had done so well in Pakistan that I became the executive assistant to the Deputy Director for Operations. So, um my career just continued

[08:15] to go straight up. >> So, that was a big deal though to raise your hand on a question of principle. >> one. >> And you and your career still keeps going well? >> Because I had a rabbi who >> My dad My dad always says that My dad always says, "You don't need a mentor, you need a rabbi or an angel." >> That's it. >> Yeah. >> He sat above the guys making these torture decisions. And he said, "Don't worry about it." And he said, "You did the right thing." He called it a slippery slope. He said, "You know how these guys are. Somebody's going to kill a prisoner and then

[08:45] they're going to go to they're going to go to prison." >> And what exactly were they doing? Like I've heard the word waterboarding, but like for someone who, again, has never been in the room. >> Okay, so let's say you are laying on this slab of of granite right here, but it's slightly elevated so your feet are a little bit higher than your than your head. They'll wrap your your face and head in material, a towel, you know, whatever, tie you down so you can't move, and then pour water on your face. So, water gets in your mouth, you start to

[09:16] drown. W- W- In the case of Abu Zubaydah, he actually did drown. He was
