Title: John Kiriakou - Ex-CIA Officer Warns America Is Repeating Its War Mistakes
Show: National Security Files
Date: 2026-07-17
URL: https://youtu.be/cfhsmSzQs-4
Duration: 63:00

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[00:00] This is why now, you're going to get me started now here. We need to operate utterly independently of the Israelis. I've said a million times, I'm going to repeat it. Starting in the mid-1980s when Ronald Reagan was president, every single Israeli prime minister, no matter who it was, when they came to the United States and they come all the time, they would say, "Please attack Iran. Please attack Iran. Please attack Iran." And every single president said, "I'm not going to do it." Obama said, what, 2 weeks ago, that

[00:30] Netanyahu came and said, "If you don't attack Iran, we're going to use nuclear weapons." And Obama said, "Go ahead. Go ahead, use them." He called the bluff and they didn't use them. Since 1986, the Iranians have been 6 months away from a nuclear weapon. Well, guess what? No, they're not. That's a lie. There've been two, count them, two national intelligence estimates. What a national intelligence estimate is is it's a sense of the community of the intelligence community, formal paper.

[01:02] And this is important. If the CIA writes a paper, uh, okay, congratulations. This is the CIA believes this or DIA believes that or State Department believes this other thing. An NIE, national intelligence estimate, is you have all 18 intelligence agencies sitting around a giant table in the offices of the National Intelligence Council and they're going sentence by sentence. Okay, the first sentence is and the the National Intelligence Officer reads it.

[01:32] "Anybody have any objections?" And all 18 people get to weigh in. It takes weeks normally to coordinate a paper like this. All 18 intelligence agencies concluded decisively twice that the Iranians did not have a nuclear weapons program. How recent were these? The first one was 2003 and the other one was like 2009, something like that. And in addition, Ayatollah Khamenei issued a fatwa saying

[02:03] that it was a sin to develop a nuclear weapon, and that's why they were not enriching to weapons-grade levels. >> Yeah. >> And the Israelis said they didn't give a [ __ ] They want us to bomb, bomb, bomb. So then finally we did. >> The meeting that you're talking about, where they're First off, I'm surprised that any You fill a room with 18 different agencies, I'm actually surprised anything ever in the world gets accomplished. >> when I tell you I'd never hated anything in my entire career as much as coordinating an NIE. I was the Deputy

[02:34] National Intelligence Officer for a while. Um, and then to get promoted to GS-14, I had to write an NIE. So I wrote this NIE in 19 97, and it was called Iraq {colon} Saddam's Next 12 Months. And we coordinated it in 8 hours. And the National Intelligence Officer, Ben Bonk, God rest his soul, terrific guy, he came to me afterwards and he

[03:05] said, "That was the fastest coordination session for an NIE that I've seen in 25 years." And I said, "This one was actually pretty easy, Ben. Saddam could threaten Kuwait. Saddam could threaten the Kurds. Saddam could threaten the Shiites. Saddam will probably try to violate sanctions." >> Yeah. >> Big deal. >> So are those NIEs, in layman's terms, are they a way to assess risk and then you can brief the policy makers? >> exactly what they're for. >> And so the reason I asked this is it's listening to Tulsi Gabbard

[03:37] testify, >> Mhm. >> and she said essentially, I'm paraphrasing, Michael, if you could pull it up, that Trump is the single or sole individual that determines the immediacy of the threat. >> Mhm. >> I feel like that premise is incredibly dangerous. >> It is dangerous. But >> And I also don't know is that is that a real assessment? Because wouldn't an organization or organizations create something like an NIE and he would be able to I'm assuming that that is the role of

[04:08] intelligence organizations. And and and maybe this is a gross misunderstanding of what she was saying. But if that's the case, what if one day after we're done with Iran he goes Mexico is an imminent threat. Like is it really like that? Like the guy sitting in the chair with the Diet Coke button gets to just determine it like that? >> This The The The answer to the question is very complicated. So the CIA, really any intelligence service, no I should say the individual authorized to determine what constitutes an imminent threat. I thought that that was the role of the intelligence apparatus.

[04:39] >> So the CIA, really any intelligence service, I should say >> So the individual authorized to determine what constitutes an imminent threat. I thought that that was the role of the intelligence apparatus. >> The intelligence apparatus will say the intelligence community does not believe that Iran is an imminent threat. The president can elect to ignore that. So technically, sure, he's the decision maker, he's the one that's going to make the final call. Any other president in modern American history has been surrounded by, you know, the

[05:11] best and the brightest. And this guy was a professor to Harvard and this guy was the deputy assistant secretary of whatever and this guy, you know, whatever. You you surround yourself with people who know these things. The Henry Kissingers of their day. Although I hate to use that example, but you know what I mean. Um So technically, the president is the final authority on these issues. But any other president will ask the Secretary of State, "What do you think?" Secretary of Defense, "What do you think?" National Security Adviser, "What do you think?" CIA Director, "What do you think?" And everybody's going to weigh

[05:42] in. And then [clears throat] these are his top people. He's going to in concert with them come to a policy decision. Collaborative effort. Collaborative effort. And remember that the CIA is not a policy organization. It is a policy support organization. George W. Bush did something that was very, very controversial just as I was leaving the agency. In the president's daily brief, which is, you know, six days a week, 16 pages, the first article is a full page. After that, there are a couple of articles of

[06:13] a paragraph of fact and a paragraph of analysis. Um he ordered the CIA to put a paragraph of fact, a paragraph of analysis, and a paragraph entitled policy recommendation. Well, that flies in the face of everything that the CIA is. You're supposed to be the one that makes the policy, not the CIA. The CIA can tell you what the facts are and what the facts likely mean, but then you make a decision. That only

[06:44] lasted for George W. Bush's second term. And then it went back to its normal state of equilibrium. My point being sure. Donald Trump is the last person. But then, Trump told 60 Minutes not most in the most most recent interview, the one before, when asked "Who are your closest advisers?" He said, "I don't have any. I just go with my gut." And we've not had a president like that before.

[07:16] >> That is a bold mission statement. Yeah. >> It is. It's very, very bold, very gutsy. Yeah. >> Another thing I'd like to see >> Do you Do you mind searching to see when those NIEs were NIE on Iran the Iran nuclear program? >> I'll tell you what I would like to have looked at very deeply, perhaps rewritten, is the authorized use of military force. >> That's a tall order. >> It's a tall order? >> here again, you've got these cowards >> and bent by every president since its

[07:47] inception? >> Yes, and you've got these cowards on Capitol Hill. >> We got 2007 >> 2007 and 2003. I thought it was 3 and 9. 3 and 7. >> Yeah, the AUMF provides some immense latitude. It's uh Sometimes I'll get online and people think I'm arguing or What was the term somebody used? They called me pedantic. So I had to look that one up. I had to look that one up. Cuz they're like, "We're at war." I'm like, "No, we're not." >> No, we're not. >> And and the point is isn't that [ __ ]

[08:19] ridiculous? >> Yes. >> That we can do this. They What they think is again, I had to look up the word pedantic and now I try to use it every day cuz it's really good. But [laughter] somebody called me mercurial the other day. >> That's a good one, too. >> I had to look it up. >> Yeah. >> But it's it baffles me that we can do every action that looks exactly like warfare. >> Yeah. >> But not as a country declared as war. And >> [clears throat] >> again, it's it's a way where actions can be taken without the oversight that I

[08:50] want to see in place. >> But and then people are like, "Oh, it's a political issue." I'm like, "Guess what? Your team captain did the He bent the [ __ ] out of this, too." >> That's right. >> Blue and red. They manipulated the [ __ ] out of this. >> have not declared war on on anybody since Vietnam. No, we never declared war >> No, I'm sorry, but since before Vietnam. >> Yeah, yeah. It was World War II. >> Yeah. >> On December 8th, we declared war on Japan and the next day we declared war on Germany. And that's it. That was the last time. Even Korea wasn't a war. It was a police action.

[09:21] >> What do you think it would take to change that thing? I don't think Well, first of all, I don't think people realize the powers that it provides and the off-ramp at least in the short term to oversight that our foundational documents were written upon. >> Mhm. Why would we want that? >> I know, right? The Constitution is so crystal clear on these issues. It It makes the executive, the legislative, and the judicial branches of government co-equal branches. Co-equal. And then you have

[09:53] these clowns like Lindsey Graham saying, "I want to make Congress weaker." It's like, are you out of your mind? >> An argument could be made. Yes. >> [laughter] >> There's a lot of stuff that we could say about Lindsey Graham. >> For clarity, an argument could be made about as well on that. It's you know, you know, [laughter] >> Strong arguments and weaker arguments, but I don't Yeah. I And people >> National security. >> Mhm. >> Safety. >> Mhm. >> What's the saying? Somebody willing to

[10:24] sacrifice liberty for security is >> is it >> Yeah. >> worthy deserves neither. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I've never seen the government give the power back. >> No. >> Ever. Ever. It We have to come to some catastrophe like that which resulted in the in the uh Church Committee before there's any real change, like structural change. >> Yeah. And then is the system so far outgrown or so far outside of the lines that they're supposed to color in, could it even be put back in or

[10:55] reoriented back in? I don't know the answer to that. >> You know, it's different now, too, than it was in 1975 just because of the state of technology. Like the How do you put that genie back in the bottle? >> I love the shorts of you on the Diary of the CEO just blowing people's minds with what the agency can do. >> I mean, Vault 7. >> God. >> All of that's public. How is it that nobody paid any attention to that? It's all public. >> think that they're doing it to our enemies. >> Yeah. >> And then the reality is that's not true.

[11:28] >> No. They can do it to all of us. >> How do I Okay. How does somebody survive in an electronic world? Like what How does >> You know, we got to all turn into Ted Kaczynski. Is what it [laughter] is what it comes down to. You live in a shack in Idaho. >> Yeah, no, I think it was Montana. >> Montana. >> Yeah. Somebody bought his shack. They have it I think as their like lawnmower storage. >> Oh my god. Can you imagine? >> Yeah, I can't get behind the bombing campaign, but under like going on like a little tech break, I totally understand. >> Yeah, I get it. But even then, in a world where everybody is defined by

[11:59] their technological usage, just like my wife doing accidental SDRs, you might end up on their radar because like this guy has got some amazing fieldcraft. He's a ghost. Like no, he just hates >> Yeah, [laughter] he's a Luddite. That That's all. He's a Luddite. >> Uh but I mean how do how do you operate in a world where they can reach into basically anything that is powered >> Mhm. >> and take it over remotely? I mean, is it just forced acceptance? I mean, it's not

[12:30] like you and I can stop it. You can tell as many people that it has happened as possible. >> on my cell phone right now, and I know you are, too. >> and NSA is with us, right? Hello, NSA. I You guys should get a budget increase. Good job. >> Yeah, I there are a couple of little things that I've done. Like uh you know, Tucker Carlson's got this uh or he advertises this uh cell phone like encrypted cell phone. >> Yeah, but I could point you back to the agency making a cell phone for the specific usage of invading drug cartels.

[13:00] >> [laughter] >> I don't have I don't have one of these cell phones. You're exactly right. I don't want to have have a cell phones, but it got me to thinking. And so, um I went I I went to an electronic store in Europe, and I just bought a cell phone, and I was able to register it in in another name. And I have a spare SIM card. I can pop out my SIM card, pop this one in, and this is registered in a Middle Eastern country. So, wherever I happen to be, I'll just go into the local version of Radio Shack or or Best

[13:31] Buy or whatever. >> Yeah. >> And I'll buy a I'll buy a burner phone or I'll buy a SIM card and swap them out. But even that's not going to >> Yeah. >> really protect me in the long run. >> give you that'd give you a little bit of a head start. >> Mhm. >> They're going to find you. >> A little bit. Oh, they'll find you. >> Yeah, yeah. Especially with the computing power. >> That that's another one like I mean 25 years ago that's how we got I was a beta. >> Yeah. >> He he made one single mistake. He he accessed his emails with a landline. >> That was it. >> I was killing people because of their SIM cards.

[14:01] >> See? >> 2005. >> Mhm. >> I mean >> Mhm. >> They learned though. They learned quick. >> Yeah, they did. >> And we adapted, but yeah, it's you know, these NSA databases and and just data farms that are showing up in odd locations and he's like, "Every single electric like we're not looking through it though. We're just storing it." >> Right. Yeah, you're not looking through it. >> Right now. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, then why do you need this gigantic facility in Utah that you've built? >> Because we might need to look at it

[14:32] later. >> Yeah. >> And then depending on who's throwing the >> Without a warrant, by the way. >> That's the biggest thing that bugs me. That I Either the Constitution matters or it doesn't. Either it means something to be an American and I truly still believe that we can be a beacon to the world. But we don't do that by hiding our missteps. We have to be honest about where we have fallen short and we have to learn from our mistakes. >> Mhm. >> And that last one right there, I'm not so sure that we're actually doing. >> I have to agree. I have to agree. >> It's like we reinvent the wheel every time we elect a new president.

[15:03] Yeah, and that's where I landed. I don't think this is a top-down fix. I think it's a bottom-up fix. It's going to be generational. >> Mhm. >> And and I I have three children. I have a my daughter I'm getting ready to get into birthday season, so I'll have 18, 21, and 23. >> Wonderful. >> They're fantastic. I'm loving their skepticism. >> And good. >> Yeah, it's it's healthy. I don't I don't like throw fire on it and like fashion them like uh tin foil berets or anything like that. But I I like it. Michael's an example, too. I mean, he's 23 years old. He's, you know, his views of the world and the way he thinks about things and

[15:35] his response to what he is seeing being put out nationally and globally, I ask him about it all the time. Because he also has a different optic than you and I have had based off of our previous careers and the answers are very informative. The pendulum I don't know if we have like bounced off of where it's swinging to, but it is going to come back. >> It has to. >> And I think the country will survive. I'm not saying a tire or two might not go off the track, but >> Right. >> [laughter] >> I think we're going to be okay. >> Right. >> Because of what I see from the younger generation. >> Good. >> I'm hopeful. >> I am, too.

[16:05] >> Maybe I'm being too incredibly optimistic. Dude, on that note, I mean, there's such a difference between the price and the cost. I mean, when you signed up to serve at the agency, you paid that price. And it's the same thing as military service. You know how long you're going to enlist for and you know that there's a risk associated with that. The cost though is everything you can never calculate. The strain on family, the the time away. How has everything that has happened to you like and I'm sure it's changed over time, but

[16:36] like with your children, how how did it impact them or your relationship with them? >> It was devastating. >> Yeah. >> I have five children. I have four boys and a girl. Boy, boy, boy, girl, boy. Um four of them don't speak to me. >> Still to this day? Mhm. >> One I'm very close to. We speak almost every day. Um and then >> started at the time where you uh I mean >> Yeah, I was still in. >> Well, and the reason I I mean, you have talked on so many large platforms about a lot of the things that you did in the agency, so I'd rather just talk to you as a person. You know what I mean? And

[17:07] so people can go and go watch Diary of a CEO. Just watch it. When you talked to him about how they can turn the speaker on a TV into a microphone, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, they definitely can do that." And he's just like, >> [laughter] >> "What?" I'm like, "Yeah, dude, they got you." I thought everybody knew that. You and I knew that. A lot of people don't want to believe they have those abilities. So, people can go reference that, but you know, to me, I had a time period when I was going through my divorce where I lost 18 months with my oldest son. Very close now. I think our relationship is better.

[17:37] Well, and I hope that that can be the case for you with your other kids. >> I'm optimistic. >> Did the relationship break when things started becoming public about what had happened with you at the agency? Yes. >> God damn. >> Yes. Yeah. >> I'll get there. I'm optimistic. People often accuse me of being irrationally optimistic, overly optimistic, but I prefer to live my life like that. And I'm I'm hopeful and relatively confident that things are going to work out. >> How old are they? >> Uh

[18:07] 33, 30, 21, 19, and 14. >> I think sometimes they have to get their own laps around the sun. It's uh >> Agreed. >> I know there are I understand yet don't agree with the criticism of what you did by coming forward. I understand the people that say that. In my opinion, I wish there were more people who were like you who were serving in the agency. >> Thank you very much. >> Because I saw it firsthand, you know,

[18:38] and we were oftentimes the action arm of the intelligence in air quotes. >> Very much so. >> And >> You were. >> And it's not perfect and everybody's doing the best that they can, but to me it's it's a rare thing to be issued the flag of your country and not rent it, you know, or go buy it on a t-shirt, which everybody can do what they want to, but it has to mean something to me. And and I from people on the outside they can criticize what you did because they don't have an understanding of it and more importantly they don't have a skin in the game. >> No, they don't. And you know, I say I'm not I'm not trying to [ __ ] on people,

[19:10] but any slob can roll out of bed and write a nasty comment on a YouTube page. >> Yeah. >> So, I I try hard just to ignore all that noise. Remember this, Joe has said this many times. >> He's never encountered somebody in life who is living an enriching successful, joy-filled life that spends their time being an [ __ ] on the internet. >> Uh that's that's great. >> I mean >> I like that. >> It really helps you recenter. >> Yeah. >> And often times now, I will respond to people

[19:41] and just say, "Listen, I don't know what's going on in your life, but I truly hope that whatever it is that you're dealing with gets better. Because people who are doing well, they don't act like this. Most of the time you'll get a middle finger, a motorcon. >> [laughter] >> But I hope that it I hope that it sticks with them and it goes to the point >> Yeah. >> about the kids more laps and more context. It's if you can keep showing them who you are, I think you're going to be okay. >> you're right. And and I'm very hopeful in that respect, and I've I've also

[20:14] made very clear to every one of them that I'm a phone call away. >> Mhm. >> That's all they have to do. >> I did the same thing with my son, too. And one day the phone rang. And it changed everything. >> That's that's what I'm hoping for. >> That 18 months felt like about 18 decades. >> Yes. >> For clarity. >> Yes. >> Um and it was it was all tied around that time period of that divorce, but and I get it, he was the oldest, probably the most impacted by it, had a bad processing ability that probably let him go down in just a mental rabbit holes of

[20:44] the whys and the hows, that's just the five Ws, you know? >> Mhm. >> Um Good. >> I'm glad that happened for for both of you. >> All you can do, and the only thing I could do, was consistently be the best version of try to be the man that I wanted to be, which I still fall short every day. But to show >> Me, too. >> that example, >> Mhm. >> they'll come back around, man. They'll come back around. >> God willing. I'm hopeful. >> Families are a bastard. >> You know, I wonder, too,

[21:15] if if it's something about this generation specifically. I've I've tried to do as much reading about family estrangement as I can. There are a lot of really good books out there right now. >> It's a really common issue, actually. >> And that's exactly what I was going to say. I I saw something on the news just yesterday saying that 25% of all American families are experiencing some level or form of family estrangement. And it's easy to think you're alone. I have a I have a friend. She used to

[21:46] write to me when I was in prison. She was a Broadway star from the '60s. And now she's almost 90 years old, and we call each other every few weeks. Her son, she has one child, her son, who's now well into his 50s, just cut her off. Like 10 years ago, 12 years ago now. Just cold turkey cut her off. >> Mhm. >> She doesn't have any idea why. She called me one day, and she asked me if I knew of a good private investigator. I

[22:17] said, "Oh, yeah. I know a very good private investigator." And I connected them. And she hired him. I didn't ask her why she wanted him. It was her business. But he told me all she wanted was a picture of her granddaughter. Mhm. She had never met her granddaughter. And so he kind of, you know, he parked across the street from the school, and um and figured out who her granddaughter was and took a picture. But not a, you know, a minute goes by that she's not thinking about

[22:47] >> Yeah. >> the son that she doesn't understand how she lost or why she lost, and the granddaughter that she's never met. She doesn't have very much more time left on on Earth. >> Part of the harder realization is in that, too, is that the situation may not change. It may never change. >> suspect >> it hasn't by now. Her husband died, the guy's father, and and the guy never reacted or responded in any way. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a real shame, but it's not uncommon is the point I wanted to make. It's not uncommon. So, I hope for

[23:18] the best. >> Yeah. So, my advice I'm not I'm not somebody to give advice, but it's the only advice I can give based on my own experience is just keep being you. I'm glad that it worked out for you. It doesn't work out for everybody, for sure. But that [clears throat] was you want to talk about a humbling experience that makes you question who you are as a human being. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, people think BUD/S is hard. I'm like, "So, here's what you want to do. You want to be tougher than a SEAL? Go through a contentious divorce." >> Right. >> [laughter] >> Seriously. Oh my god. >> Like, stop researching these selection courses to go through. Just get a

[23:50] divorce. It's way harder. Not actual advice that I'm giving to anybody. This is completely sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek, but God, it will destroy you. It's truly the hardest thing I've ever done, though. >> Oh my god, me too. Yeah. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. >> I would agree with that. I would agree with that. It's a man. There's not a the hard drive long enough or big enough to encapsulate my thoughts on that process, but >> And I'll tell you another thing, Andy, is you know, when you go some through something like this, you really get to see who your friends

[24:20] are. >> Yes. >> Including people that you share blood with, you know? Including people that you may be married to or otherwise, you know, engaged to in some way. I had I had one I have one cousin. He's he's a good 10 years older than I am. And when I was a little kid, I always looked up to him. He was like, you know, the the big kid, good-looking, Navy pilot. And um when I got arrested, uh he called me and he said, "Listen, I

[24:50] got to cut you off." I was like, "What? What are you talking about?" He said, "You brought shame to our family." And I said, "You think I didn't read about you in the Washington Post that you were the mayor of Alexandria, Virginia's coke dealer? You think I didn't know that you and your guys are standing on the beach in Florida waiting for the Colombians to drop the bales of of of weed out of the plane? I know all about you. And I brought shame to our family? I said, [ __ ] you."

[25:21] And I've cut him off. Well, now he's like sending me Facebook friend requests. "Hey cuz, you're really famous now." Yeah, [ __ ] you. I haven't forgotten about 2012. >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] >> I have shifted years ago. Family actually to me is nothing to do with DNA. It's how they treat you. >> You got that right. >> Plus, if you go deep enough and people are like, "Oh, our family's perfect." I'm like, "Tell me about your grandparents." >> Yeah, exactly. >> in every family they're like, "Ooh, we don't really talk about Uncle Bob that

[25:52] much cuz he's [ __ ] crazy." I'm like, "We all got crazy." >> I had an uncle like that, my grandmother's brother. I I remember meeting him. I must have been like 12 the first time I met him and I was like, "How come I never heard of Uncle Bill?" Like I said this to my mother, "How come How come I never heard of Uncle Bill? How is he my uncle?" "Oh, he's your grandmother's brother." "How come I've never met him? He lives here in the same town. How come I never met him?" And she said, "When you get a little older, I'll explain it to you." Well, I'm like 15 and she finally explains to me, he he was one of the American soldiers who

[26:23] liberated Dachau concentration camp at the end of the Second World War and it made him nuts. >> I see how it could. >> So, yeah, seriously. So, he came back with what today we know as PTSD. Back then they called it shell shock and all different kinds of things. In 1953, he had been home for 8 years. He somehow got it into his head that Richard Nixon, who had just been uh elected vice president, promised him a job at the post office in

[26:55] Steubenville, Ohio. >> Sounds reasonable. >> Yeah. So, he puts on his suit. Monday morning, he goes to the post office. He's here for his job. >> [laughter] >> It's very sad. I mean, I laugh, but it's sad. >> I'm laughing with him, not at him, sort of. >> [laughter] >> And they're like, "Who are you?" He said, "I'm I'm Bill. I'm here for my job." They're like, "We don't know what you're talking about." And he said, "That damn Nixon, I'm going to get him." Six months later, Nixon comes to Steubenville to give a speech. Complete serendipity.

[27:27] And Uncle Bill tries to get into the civic center with a.45. >> Oh, no. >> And they get him. And my mom said, I'll never forget these words. She said, "There, but for the grace of God, our name could have been Oswald." And then, how did Uncle Bill die? He got hit by a train. And I said to my mom, I was in college at the time. It was on the front page of the paper. I was like, "How do you not hear a train coming?" And she's like, "You know, this is one of those things that's better just left un- un-

[27:57] unresolved." >> Yeah, trains are really deadly, but also, if you don't go on the tracks, you have a real good chance of >> Yeah, maybe stay off the tracks, especially when those arms come down and the red lights are flashing. You might want to stay off the tracks. >> Indeed. >> Have you heard the latest narrative around the ex-CIA I don't know what they call officers, agents. Uh, this is a new one I heard. You guys, at first, the CIA was like, "Oh, no.

[28:29] They're telling all the secrets." But now, people think, some people think that the CIA is actually trying to help you get on shows >> Oh, we're friends again. Are we? >> you can sow misinformation. So, now, you're not a whistleblower anymore. Now, you're a knowing and willing mouthpiece of the agency. >> Wow. And they came up with that all by themselves? >> Somebody did on the internet. Bustamante's name was in there as well and some a couple of other people I didn't recognize their names as much. But that's an interesting shift in thought process. >> I'll tell you there is literally nothing

[29:00] that I hate more than when people say once CIA, always CIA. Okay, >> It's very movie based. >> Yeah, I'm going to call Ed Snowden and the sons of Philip Agee and Ray McGovern and tell them that you think because of your incredible [ __ ] intellect that they're still in the CIA and I'm in the CIA. Well, that was that prison sentence, that was cover. They That was [laughter] That was so you could establish cover. It's like that is just great.

[29:30] >> And then go on a podcast circuit so you can just be the mouthpiece for the agency. >> Right. >> Do you think the agency would get the [ __ ] >> No, not anymore. >> Do you think that they have people who pay attention or Sean Ryan posted a picture that he got they he got an advertising request for the agency. They wanted >> kidding me? >> I swear it was on his social media. It was an ad by request from the agency. I'm like, you should definitely take that money. >> Yeah. >> And do the shittiest read. >> It's terrible. I'll [laughter] tell you just in the last 8 weeks, I mean on my

[30:02] own podcast I've been doing a lot of, you know, do you have gold in your IRA? Go to johnlovesgold.com or um running low on Ivermectin? All Family Pharmacy/John you get 10% off. And what are you going to do? >> So, lights don't pay for themselves. >> Exactly. So, 8 weeks ago when things started going nuts for me, all of a sudden I'm getting calls from, you know, Tom Ford eyeglasses and, you know, this company and that company and a vineyard in Napa. It's very cool. There was one I

[30:34] turned down out of hand. It was for a generic maker of Viagra. >> Mhm. >> Okay, no big deal. People take Viagra. I don't, but maybe some people do. But they wanted me to do this commercial with an OnlyFans model. And they wanted >> more. >> They wanted me to say, "Being with her is not torture." And I said, >> Hold on, how much were they offering? >> [laughter] >> Don't actually say, I'm joking. >> I SAID, I SAID, "Am I a clown for you? That's

[31:06] what you think this all boils down to. I'm here for your amusement." Yeah. >> To them it was a joke. >> Yeah, it's all a big joke. >> The moral stand that you took to them. >> Yeah. >> For clarity, I did do some funny ads for Blue Chew dick pills because they gave me full creative license and I did like a 13-minute ad read one time. I wove it into a story. >> 13 minutes every >> It was like the end of it was. It was like, "Oh, and then an Amazon guy rung the doorbell. He's like, 'Ding dong.' I'm like, 'If your dong isn't being the ding that you want it to be.'" It was like, >> [laughter] >> That's awesome. >> based in real life. It was the opening

[31:37] of it. I just completely lost myself in the story and I just left it in there. That's a gift. >> [laughter] >> That's a gift. I will say, this cashmere sweater is by Quince. >> Yeah. >> And Quince is one of my sponsors on John Kiriakou's Dead Drop, which you can find on Apple Podcasts. I'm proud to say, I am in the top 1/10 of 1% of all of the 2 million podcasts on Apple Podcasts. >> That's amazing. >> It's fantastic. I don't know how it happened. Um, in fact, >> this this >> getting your message out there and you

[32:07] kept being yourself. >> Thank you for that. >> I mean, honestly, that's the answer to it. >> So, Quince reached out to me and said, you know, we we want to give you $150 to buy whatever you want on the Quince uh webpage and then just be honest and just talk for 60 seconds about about what uh what you think about the product. So, I go online. I I didn't have this color of olive green. This is the nicest cashmere anything that I've ever owned. Sometimes cashmere is very thin. There's

[32:38] not much to it cuz it's so soft. This is substantial. It's thick and it's the softest thing I've ever owned. I wear it all the time. And now I've gone back to the Quince website with my own money and spent another thousand bucks just because I can't believe how high quality this these clothes are. >> Plus, when you think cashmere, you think CIA officer. >> Well, I'll tell you what. >> You got to You need to have some other little >> patches. >> That's only if you're an analyst. >> A lot of cashmere around the world comes

[33:09] from Pakistan. And so, when I was in Pakistan, I'm getting, you know, emails from everybody in my family. Like, "Can you get me a cashmere sweater? Can you get me a cashmere scarf?" So, I come home with a suitcase full of just cashmere to give away to people. Well, I can't go to Pakistan and buy cashmere. I got to pay, you know, US prices. I'm happy to pay it if it's this kind of quality. >> Yeah. When brands reach out to me like that, what I always do is I never take their 150 or whatever it is. If it's a brand that I'm interested in, I'll make

[33:41] my initial purchase with my card. Just cuz I want to be clean. And then I can actually give them legit feedback. And later on, if they want to enter into an advertising relationship, I'll take your money. >> That is a very good idea. >> It's like, "I'll take your money, but I I'm going to enter into this like let me let me be a paying customer first. Let me get that experience." How is the last eight weeks been when it just like Did you just wake up one morning and you're like, "I somehow I'm sitting on a rocket ship"? >> Quite literally. I happened to be in Dubai and and my niece called me from New Hampshire and she says, "Uncle John,

[34:12] you're blowing up on TikTok." I said, "Why?" And she said, "I don't know." And then one day later, I get a call from a major global talent agency. And the guy says, "Tell me you're not represented." And I said, "I'm not represented, but I don't understand why this is happening." >> Mhm. >> And then, a couple days after that, I get a call from a reporter at Wired magazine, and she wants to interview me

[34:43] about my new new found Tik Tok fame. I said, "How did this start? I don't really understand why it's happening." >> upstream and actually figure out that origin as well, too. >> Well, she figured it out. It was Diary of a CEO. Which is funny, because >> Well, first off, they could make his facial expressions to some of your answers are memes in and of themselves. It's like, Steven, pick it pick the job, just a little bit. >> [laughter] >> He was so much fun. First of all, he is

[35:13] he's so incredibly bright and had such insightful questions. It wasn't just John telling stories. He had he he posed questions that I had never been asked to answer >> Mhm. >> before. It was much more philosophical than a normal, you know, John telling stories kind of podcast. Um but there was a kid, there's a sophomore at the University of Texas who took that interview and chopped it up into shorts, so that each short was a story. He gave

[35:44] me an Alvin and the Chipmunks voice, and then the punchline would be in this ogre's voice, you know, "And then I killed the janitor." That kind of thing. And then laser beams are shooting out of my eyes. And, you know, for a second, I thought, "Should I be offended? Offended that they're like they're turning this into something so lighthearted? I was talking about serious issues here, torture." This whole thing about hummus, this was about a torture technique. And then I thought, "No, I've got a sense of humor, too. I'm going with it."

[36:15] >> It'll lead more people to your actual message, anyway. >> And that's exactly what has happened. >> Yeah. >> And then I I was approached literally the next day by Cameo. Um it's an app where, you know, you can commission D-list celebrities like me uh to say happy birthday or, you know, I have endorsed more kids for 11th grade class president than you can shake a stick at. >> Do you have Do you end everyone with remember the agency is always watching? >> Sometimes I just go >> [laughter]

[36:45] >> If they only knew the truth. >> But I got to say, it has been so much fun. It has opened up doors for me that I never imagined would ever open. And I you know, I like to write books. I I my ninth book is coming out in uh in uh June. And >> How do you enjoy the I just had a book come out April 14th. >> Congratulations. It's hard work. >> I was going to say, how did you possibly enjoy that process enough to do it nine times? >> what it is? I stopped writing for other

[37:17] people and started writing for myself. >> That makes a lot of sense. >> My first seven books were about the CIA. And a whole bunch of them were commissioned. >> I read the first two. The first two was Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror. Did really well, made number five on the New York Times bestseller's list. The second one was Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. And that one two literary awards. I wrote it in longhand on on legal pads at prison. And at the end of each day of writing, because the guards

[37:47] would tear them up and throw them in my face, I would mail them back to my attorney and mark them legal mail so they couldn't intercept them. >> yeah. >> Um >> The agency was definitely reading them before you got them. >> 100% 100%. >> It would look like a It would look like a clean envelope by the time it got to your attorney, but they >> Well, you know >> There's going to be some eyes on those things. >> of people wrote back to me and said, "Hey, your last letter was discreetly slit on the side of the envelope." So, I went down to the lieutenant's office one guy one day and I said, "You guys, you act like you're [ __ ] geniuses and you're not. You're dopes." I said, "Listen, if you want to read what I have

[38:18] to say, you don't have to slit the the of the envelope open and then tape it up like nobody's going to notice that. What you do is you unfold a paperclip, you put it in the top of the envelope so that it hooks the paper, and then you just turn the paperclip so that it's a nice tight roll, and then you pull it out, then you can read it, and then you roll it back up and put it back in the envelope. I said, "Seriously, I have to explain it to you?" >> Yeah. These These are rookie techniques. You guys are trash. Rookie. >> Day one [ __ ] >> But you know what? That reminds me of

[38:48] something I wanted to tell you. >> [laughter] >> Something I wanted to tell you. >> [snorts] >> Saturday. I'm driving. It's early in the morning. I'm driving to George Washington University. It was a day of TED Talks. And I love TED Talks. I did one there years ago. It was so much fun. So, I'm going to the TED Talk. My phone rings. And it's kind of early. It's like 8:00 or just before 9:00. And it's a It's a number I didn't recognize. So, I answer it. And the guy says, um He gives me his name, and he is a

[39:20] He's the head of a Okay, I'll just say it. So, he's the He's the director of the Bureau of Prisons. And I said, "Oh." I said, "To what do I owe the pleasure of a call from the director of the Bureau of Prisons?" He says, "You have been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for 10 years." And I go, "Correction, I've been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for 13 years. Get your number straight." I know, buddy. >> Yeah. >> And he says, "Thus the reason for my call." He said, "When you talk [ __ ] you always follow it up with a proposed

[39:53] solution." And I said, "Yeah." I said, "You're corrupt, and your people are stupid, and your entire uh bureau is broken." And he says, "The president has mandated that I completely uh recreate the Bureau of Prisons. I want to reorganize it. I want to revamp it. And I want to know if you would be willing to be a uh a member of an advisory committee. >> I think we call that coming full circle.

[40:24] >> I think so, too. I jumped at it. I said, "Absolutely yes. When do you want to see me?" He says, "Wednesday." I said, "Done. I'll be there." And then he says, "Can you recommend somebody who would be really good?" And I said, "Absolutely yes." I said, "He's got an Italian last name that is going to be easily recognizable, but he did 17 years and he shouldn't have done 17 days. And how he's been able to maintain his humanity, I have no idea. I said, "He'll He'll set you straight." >> Yeah. Man.

[40:54] What do you want to do with the notoriety as it builds? Like what what are you looking at in your runway in front of you? What do you want to do with the attention? Having a platform is an amazing thing. >> It's amazing. I can't believe it. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for that question. Um a couple of things. Number one, I've been talking about these same issues since 2007. >> Yeah. >> They're really, really important to me. Human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, transparency in government. >> Do you think they're gaining traction?

[41:25] >> I think so, too. So, number one, I want to keep talking to to increasingly large audiences. Um I really love writing. I I love it. And I love that people enjoy my books. I I love that people enjoy hearing the stories. The stories are all true, which is why they've gained traction, I think. So, I want to continue writing for bigger and bigger audiences. Since 2007, I've had a hobby where I

[41:56] write television pilots. It's fun. And I've been blessed since 2007 to have sold eight of them in Hollywood. Yeah. >> And so, now I've got I've got meetings scheduled over the next two two three weeks with household names. >> Well, now that you have representation >> And now I have representation. >> [laughter] >> I mean, these are like multiple Oscar winners. >> Oh, that's amazing. >> Reaching out, exchanging ideas, I'm all in. I love it. Uh and

[42:28] you know, I'm not ashamed to finally, for the first time in my life, make a couple of bucks. I I I'm tired of being poor. I'm tired of renting. It's it's time to it's time to ramp up my my level of existence. >> I don't think anybody out there is not involved in that struggle, too. >> Mhm. >> Some of them talk about it a little bit more than others, but yeah, everybody is trying to make as much as they can in a world that seems where the scarcity model is approaching for everyone.

[42:59] >> Yes. Yeah, I'm tired of it. >> Yeah, it's man. People think Yeah, let's just say don't join the military. I mean, financial stability, yes, for the 1st and the 15th, like your check is going to come even if the government shuts down. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> check may not be as big as you want it to be. >> Exactly. And you know, these [ __ ] Obama people, they confiscated my pension in 2012. So, I I've got nothing. I have literally nothing. >> Yeah. >> And so, I've got to make that up now. >> I think you're on a trajectory though where you might look back at the number

[43:29] of that pension. >> Yeah. >> And even if they offered to you, >> Yeah, maybe it's better that I don't take it. >> If you're in a If you're in a place where it was offered to you, I think the more powerful move is to say [ __ ] you. >> Mhm. And your measly $3,000 a month. >> You get I mean, it's one of the misconceptions or the things that I maybe not a misconception, but people don't realize, especially coming out of the world that I was in in the military, this is all

[44:00] I'm going to do, this is all that I can do. And that's a very self-limiting ideology. >> Oh, you're exactly right. And then you get out and if you can break yourself from that ideology, the opportunities that present themselves to you, you would Of all the things I do now, literally, people don't believe me. If if you had given me an unlimited amount of time in the years before I exited the military, not a single thing that I do now, the coffee shop, what? I didn't even drink coffee till I was 27 years old. That was seriously the best mocha I've ever had in my life. When I took the first sip, I was like, "Oh my god,

[44:32] this is fantastic." It's Montana's, we do a sprinkle of nothing there just to get you coming back for the second one. No, it wouldn't have been on there. Hosting a podcast in the world I came from, just like the world you came from, they're like, "I'm sorry, I'm going to willingly put myself on camera and put my thoughts out on the internet to be destroyed by by >> See, you you are exactly like I was where at the agency, they a part of the culture is that they convince you that your skills are so specific that you can't do anything else. For us, you move from the

[45:02] agency into a defense contractor. For you, you move into, you know, Blackwater or some kind of contracting. And that's just simply not true. You and I, when we were walking over here, I mentioned that first of all, God bless Cameo. Seriously, I I actually, this is how nuts it is. For the last 8 weeks, I have set my alarm every morning for 4:00 a.m. >> [laughter] >> Take it easy, >> And I I answer Cameos from 7:00 and then starting at 7:00, I do my normal day because otherwise I can't catch up. >> Yeah. >> And I'm afraid of, you know, this all

[45:34] just going away one day overnight, like flipping a switch, like somebody flipped a switch to start it in the first place. So, my sister and I bought a laundromat. And now I won't be completely, you know, poor. >> Even if it does go away, this is what I've realized in my life through the technical term would be excessive amount of failures that I have stumbled my way through, >> [laughter] >> voluminous, if you will. You figure out a way. >> Yeah. >> You do. >> I I have I am finally at a place in my life where I worry less about the

[46:05] opportunities that are going to come because I know that they will and I find that I'm more receptive to them by just kind of letting go of the reins a little bit and playing the field as it presents itself to me instead of trying to mold the chessboard into the which I've been wrong I've been wrong every time I've tried to force the world into the chess moves that I think are right. >> Yeah, I mean it took me 48 years to figure this out and for clarity I haven't figured it out completely. Maybe I'm just learning a little bit more from my mistakes, but dude you're going to figure it out. Even if it turns off tomorrow you're still going to figure it out cuz

[46:37] you've put the volume of work in and that I think is that's the difference between people who are truly suc- there are of course blacks one events where somebody will become instantaneously famous for something. Good luck scaling that across any generational level. >> Look look at this a Huckleberry girl. Like >> Yeah, it didn't go too great for her. >> No. She was a giant for like 2 weeks and then go on. >> I don't know why anybody would take advice from her financially. Like the meme coin thing you didn't you really thought that one was going to be like a

[47:07] solid 401k investment strategy? >> that's where you want to put your hard-earned dollars. >> Yeah. I mean life is self-critiquing in many ways. It's like numchucks. If you're not ready for them they're going to break your nose. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. >> You're going to it's you're going to figure it out, man. The more work you have put in it's the overnight 10-year success. You're going to start getting people now like oh must be nice, John. Must be nice and it's like first off A if you really want to piss them off say it's actually nicer than you think it could be. >> [laughter] >> And then it'd be

[47:37] that twists them off a little bit. Like you actually don't even have the imagination to understand how nice it is, but they're never going to see the hard work. They're just going to see that you have arrived at a place where they want to be and they want to knock it down a little bit. >> Several friends of mine have told me that that they've never met anybody who works as hard as I do. And >> it's actually the key to success. >> It is? The hack culture that we live in, you can hack a lot of things, but you can't hack hard work. >> You can't. >> And I I don't sleep very much. I don't

[48:07] really have any hobbies. All I do is work. >> Mhm. >> Uh and it it this started off during COVID. Well, I mean, I've always worked hard, but especially during COVID, I had a lot of trouble sleeping. And I thought, well, I can lay here in bed and stare at the ceiling, or I can go downstairs and write an op-ed and make $400. And so I started with the op-eds. And then, oh, I started saying most of my books, my first seven books were about the CIA or something having to do with the CIA. And then during COVID, um

[48:38] I thought, "No, you know what? I've ever since I was a little boy, I've loved cemeteries, exploring cemeteries. I love the architecture. I love the symbolism of the stones or what's on the stones, but I especially love the fact that literally everybody has a story. So, I'm not talking about the most famous people. I'm talking about interesting people. Um I was 9 years old. I told my mom one day, we lived about a mile from the cemetery, and I said, "I'm going to go down to the cemetery and look for salamanders." So, I took a an empty shoe box. I went

[49:08] down to the cemetery. I found a salamander under a rock. I put him in the box with some grass. And when I got home, she said, "Did you find any salamanders?" And I said, "Yeah, I found one under a rock. It was next to a gravestone that had a badge on it." And she said, "What kind of badge?" And I said, "It said Congressional Medal of Honor." And she said, "Oh, that's a hero. We should go to the library and see what he did." So, we went to the library, and we we were regulars at the library anyway, but we found that he was a farmer from my hometown, and in the Battle of uh

[49:43] Oh, shoot. Battle of the Wilderness, was it? Battle of Petersburg. He captured the Confederate battle flag. >> Damn. >> And got the Congressional Medal of Honor, came back home, farmed until 1878 and died. And she said to me, I'll never forget it. She said, you see everybody has a story. You don't have to be famous to have a story. So, I've been to 73 countries and probably 70 of those countries I've been to a cemetery.

[50:13] And I decided to write a cemetery book about the cemeteries of Washington D.C. So, I go online during COVID and I'm looking and it's there were like two dozen books about Arlington National Cemetery. And I learned that nobody had ever written a book about the cemeteries of Washington D.C. >> Mhm. >> There are fascinating people buried in Washington. >> Yeah. >> So, I wrote the first book. And it comes out in June and then I followed it up. A funny thing is I sent it to my publisher. It's Simon &

[50:45] Schuster. And I said, look, I know you guys don't normally publish books like this, but this was important to me. Could you take a look at it? And I told him what it was, the editor. And he's like, yeah, we don't really do books like this, but all right, I'll pass it around. He calls me 2 weeks later and he says, this is the best book you've ever written. And they want to commission four more. I said, oh, what do they want? So, I finished, it's in editing now, um, Whispers in the Dirt, The Mafia Graves of New York City. >> Oh, damn. >> I think that's going to be a good one.

[51:16] And they want one on America's most notorious serial killers, one on the historic cemeteries of Chicago, and one on the country western graves of Nashville. >> That's a real broad spectrum there. >> Mhm. >> I like the serial killers one. >> I think so, too. >> My wife is slightly disturbed by the number of documentaries that I'll watch about serial killers. >> I'm addicted. >> And she's like, what is it that you >> I'm addicted. >> She's like, what is it that you get out of these? And I'm like, I'm not sure, but I really can't turn it off. >> Buddy, there was a serial killer in my housing unit

[51:47] uh, when I was in prison. We called him Truck. He was a long-distance truck driver. And in the days before DNA testing, he would pick up prostitutes at truck stops and have sex with them and then strangle them, drive another hour, and then just throw their bodies out of the out of the truck. So, he strangled a 16-year-old prostitute and she survived. And she identified him and the truck, and he was arrested. He got 40 years. For reasons that will never be clear to me, he constantly sought my approval.

[52:18] He started off like, "So, you were CIA?" And I said, "Yeah." He goes, "I was CIA, too. I was I used a shrimp boat to smuggle >> [laughter] >> a shrimp" He specifically said a shrimp boat to smuggle weapons to the Angolan rebels. I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here. A shrimp boat." >> Forest Gump. >> Yeah, exactly. A shrimp boat. >> [laughter] >> I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here." And that just made him like seek my approval more. He had these rotten nubs for teeth. >> Yeah. >> So, he would say stuff like, "Hey John, I

[52:49] know that you like the Steelers and the Steelers are are on TV this Sunday. I saved you a seat in the in the TV room." I'm like, "Okay, thanks, Truck." "Hey John, I I know you like classic rock. There's a new classic rock station, 1600 AM." I'm like, "Thanks, Truck." So, there was this other guy at the same time we called Cat in the Hat cuz he had this oddly elongated head. It was like a birth defect. This crazy like you could project a film on his on his forehead, you know? And um

[53:20] I had an empty bunk in my cell and you have to get everybody's agreement to move into somebody's cell. And we had a rule in my cell, no pedophiles. Pedophiles are banned. So, I said to him, he wanted to move into the bunk. I said, "You a pedophile?" And he said, "No, I'm not a pedophile." I said, "What's your What's your crime?" And he says, "Murder for hire." I said, "I don't think I like that any more than I like the pedophiles." I said, "What were the circumstances of that crime?" And he said, "I owed the mob a hundred grand. I couldn't pay it, so I took out

[53:50] a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitman to kill him and I got caught." And I said, "Let me guess, you ratted out the hitman." He goes, "Well, it was either life [laughter] in prison or 20 years." I said, "No pedophiles, no rats." So, we wouldn't let him in. Well, he was mad. One day I hear my name on the on the PA. Kyriacou, lieutenant's office. Usually, that means you're going to solitary. They didn't have the balls

[54:20] to send me to solitary. So, it turned out Jake Tapper wanted to interview me and he had come up to the prison and I had to sign a waiver and sit for the interview. So, I'm sitting next to Truck later that afternoon in the TV room. I am two feet away from Cat in the Hat. He does not seem to be sitting immediately directly behind him. He's standing at the computer. There's an internal email system. I'm sitting there. Truck is here. I'm here. Cat in the Hat's here.

[54:50] And he says, Cat in the Hat says to the guy next to him, "Did you hear that [ __ ] Kyriacou? He got caught called down to lieutenant's office. He goes, 'That guy's a [ __ ] rat. He went down there to rat us all out.'" And I just sat there. Listen, if you call somebody a rat, that's a big deal. >> Oh, blood's going to be spilled. >> Yeah. >> I I didn't react in any way and Truck says, "That [ __ ] guy just called you a rat." And I go, "An hour ago, I heard him call you a pedophile." Of course, he didn't. I just made it up.

[55:22] Without saying a single word, Truck got up and beat this guy almost to death. >> And this is why, John, you were an excellent case officer. >> [laughter] >> They had to land a helicopter in the yard to life flight him to Pittsburgh. Truck got 5 years added to his sentence. Cat in the Hat was in intensive care for like 6 weeks. He finally comes back to the prison. He's all [ __ ] up like, you know. >> Yeah. >> And somebody had told him what had happened. So, he comes up to me like

[55:53] this and he goes, "I I just wanted to say I'm sorry that I called you a rat. I should have never said that. I'll never do it again." And I go, "Hey, hey." I said, "Look at me." I said, "So help me God, if I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead and you're never going to see it coming." And nobody messed with me. >> I think we call those soft skills. >> [laughter] >> I got called down to the lieutenant's

[56:23] office cuz I just continued watching the Steelers game like this as as Truck is beating him to death. >> Yeah. >> So, I get called down. They were like, "What the [ __ ] were you doing at that fight?" I go, "What fight?" >> Checking the score. >> "The fight! You were sitting right next TO THESE GUYS. THE GUY'S BEATING THE OTHER GUY TO DEATH." I SAID, "I'm watching the Steelers game. What are you talking about?" "Oh, you're going to tell us that what we saw on four different cameras didn't happen." I go, "Yeah, maybe you were the ones fighting. Did you ever think of that?" Admit nothing.

[56:54] Deny everything. Counter accusations. >> He's like, "GET THE [ __ ] OUT OF MY OFFICE." SO. >> Do you ever miss your old job? >> Very much. >> Yeah. >> I can tell. >> [laughter] >> But so that's the thing though. Millions of dollars spent on people, you can't always put it all down. That stuff will be with you for the rest of your life. And again, they were looking for a particular type of person that they can hone and sharpen those skills in. I'll tell you man, the the Italians adopted me literally the day I arrived. And I mean Italians named Gambino, Lucchese,

[57:24] Genovese. These are serious guys. I I loved them all. I saw two of them last weekend. We had dinner together. They're awesome. And I said to one of them, I said, "This [ __ ] guy, Cat in the Hat, I said, I'm taking this guy down." And and a very senior guy in the Banana family, he said, "Are you crazy?" He said, "They're going to add years on your sentence. You're going to end up doing all of them solitary." And I said, "I would never be so crude as to do it with my own hands. >> [laughter] >> Who do you think I am?

[57:54] >> Do you not know where I come from? >> Oh my god, you think I don't think about this stuff in advance? >> Yeah. There's a difference between brute force >> That's right. >> and non-linear problem-solving. >> In my second book, Doing Time Like a Spy, I I start off with these 20 life lessons that I learned at the CIA. And one of them is let others do your dirty work. I would never do it myself. >> Yeah. >> Why would you? Why take the risk? >> It's a good question. There There was

[58:24] one uh >> Good. I got to get you to the airport here. >> Oh yeah, I got to get you to the airport. >> We got time. >> One of the Italian guys, he became my best friend and is still one of my best friends in the world. It's funny, you know, you don't go to prison to make friends. But I made a friend in prison that that he's like a brother, a brother to me. And um we were talking about, you know, having others do the dirty work. And he said, he said, "That's some [ __ ] up kind of sociopath stuff right there." And I said, "Yeah, okay, yes, you're

[58:57] right. But the thing is, if you want to stay safe and you don't want to stay safe in solitary, you have to have others do your dirty work." And uh it took him a little while, but he understood. He mentioned to one of the guards, he said to one of these guards, "This was the the only guard that was like universally reviled." He was the only guard that wore a stab vest because he was genuinely afraid somebody was was to stab him. >> Mhm. >> And he And my buddy said, uh "Where are

[59:28] you going to be?" uh They would do these 6-month rotations in different housing units. "Oh, I'm going to be in Central 1." He said, "Oh, my buddy John's in Central 1." And um the guard says, "The CIA guy, John?" And he said, "Yeah." And the guard says, "I never [ __ ] with that guy." And my friend says, "Yeah? Why not?" And he said, "That's all I need. I work 8 hours a day. I go out to my car and see an standing out there. No, thank you." >> [laughter] >> I said, "Exactly."

[1:00:00] >> Yeah, it's a deep pool. Uh last question for you. There are people out there who view your old job as their life's calling. >> Mhm. >> What would you say to a young person who wants to have an impact in the intelligence community given the landscape of where I think we both agree it is at right now. What would you tell them? >> I would give them the same advice that my first deputy office director gave me. He said, "You are going to see things

[1:00:32] during the course of your career that that's going to make your hair stand up. Things that you cannot abide. But understand that around year 10 of your career, you're going to realize that you're in a position of authority all of a sudden. You're a branch chief, a deputy group chief. If your career really takes off, you're going to be a group chief. And you can change those things." He said, "There's always going to be a CIA. There's nothing that anybody can do to make it so that there isn't a CIA anymore. And if you want to change it, you have to change it from

[1:01:02] the inside." He said, "Around year 10, you can change it from the inside." >> It's a bottoms-up approach as well. >> Mhm. >> I think that's the way. >> I think so, too. >> God, that's a tough journey, though. >> And there are a lot of very bad people in positions of authority right now. >> Yeah. I think there is more out there that are good though. >> That I agree with. >> Yes, and that's why I still have hope. There are good people out there.

[1:01:34] You know, it's funny, too. There are a lot of people that just want to go work their day and then go home, make dinner, and sit with their family. >> Yeah. >> They don't even realize that they're the kind of people that we need to affect those changes. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes an opportunity presents itself and you never saw it coming. >> Agreed. What do you want to leave people with? Final thoughts. >> You know, I've been the last eight or nine weeks I've been able to connect with Gen Z. And so my message is to Gen Z. It is to tell the truth.

[1:02:07] Because the truth really does set you free. There are some very contentious issues that they're going to experience, confront in their lifetimes. Be on the right side of those issues. In the long run, it's all worth it. >> Couldn't agree more. Hell yeah, John. Thank you for making the trip out. >> So good to see you. This is fun. Thanks for the invitation. >> Of course, man. My pleasure.
