Title: Former CIA Officer: Here's What's Wrong With Prison
Show: The Legal Owl
Date: 2026-07-01
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8zAmQT7Daw
Duration: 1:03:00

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[00:00] Welcome to Legal. My guest today is John Kiryaku, intelligence officer, former intelligence officer with the Central Intelligence Agency. And today he's coming on to Legal Oil. We're going to talk about the prison system and where he sees the problems that exist from the Bureau of Prisons down to the prisoners and also those in the prison system.

[00:30] What are the weaknesses? And why are the prisons not educating prisoners? What did he experience when he went to prison? What was his mental and emotional mindset before he did his time? Enjoy this conversation on legal because this is probably the start of a wider and a greater look at the

[01:01] prison system in the legal industry. And if you are a lawyer, if you're a criminal lawyer, then we want to hear from you. What problems do you see in the justice system and the prison system? My guest today is John Keryaku. Enjoy. very very little. Very little. Honestly, it's it's every man for himself. I remember one of the guards overhearing one of the guards telling another prisoner, screaming at another prisoner, "Nobody gives a [ __ ] about you. Nobody gives a [ __ ] if you live or

[01:34] die." You've entered Legal L, where sharp legal minds meet the power of strategic intuitive intelligence and inner awareness. hosted by someone that is a veteran, an author, and is an individual experienced in specialist security operations, strategic intuitive intelligence, and transformational psychology. This is not your typical legal podcast. We explore what most lawyers never say out loud. Burnout, grief, inner dissonance, and what it really takes to sustain a legal career

[02:04] with clarity, purpose, and personal alignment. Alongside powerful solo insights, you'll hear thought-provoking conversations with members of the Help Lawyer Network, lawyers, legal support professionals, and expert witnesses sharing real stories from the front lines. This is the space where law meets what's rarely talked about. Welcome to Legal Al where wisdom meets the law and strategic intuitive intelligence guides the way. John Kyaku, welcome to Legal, my friend.

[02:37] How are you? >> I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me. >> I I'm absolutely it's a pleasure to have you on, John, and I'm really excited about this conversation. And as as you know, we're going to talk about something different. Uh anybody who's out there, you've listened to my introduction, but John, just uh give everybody a little bit of background on who you are and then we're going to jump right into John the Man and not John the Spy. >> Sure. Yeah. I I spent 15 years with the CIA from uh 1990 to well halfway through 1994. My

[03:09] resignation was effective 1995. Um I went from there into the private sector to Deote heading their uh competitive intelligence program. Then I went to the uh I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program in 2007 while I was at Deote. went to the uh Senate Foreign Relations Committee as the senior investigator and then the Obama administration fell on my head, prosecuted me for um for blowing the whistle on the torture program and uh I

[03:40] was facing 45 years in prison. I ended up taking a plea to a lesser charge to make the thing go away. I was sentenced to 30 months in prison. I did 23 months, which was a lot better than 45 years. and then uh went home to my five kids. But I'll tell you, and I'm going to preempt a question that I know you're going to ask, I would absolutely, positively do it all over again. It was worth it. The only thing I might do differently is to hire an attorney before blowing the whistle, which I recommend other, you know, would be

[04:12] whistleblowers do, but otherwise, no apologies and and no second thoughts. >> Joy, I can't believe you said that. We'll need to get you back on help legal so you can actually we can do another episode on on the whistleblower things. I'm sure there's there's tons of lawyers out there want to want to kind of jump on that. If I may, I want to kind of talk a little bit about your uh your thought process as you were coming up to this inevitable time. How how were you what was going through your mind? How were you coping with the the

[04:44] you know how your life is just going to change and that you're you're going to go to prison? your first thought is to commit suicide, >> right? >> You know, when when you're 48 years old and you're facing 45 years in prison, it's a it's a death sentence anyway. Um, once you get past that and you're fortunate enough, as I was fortunate enough to hire the best lawyers in Washington, whom the Washington Post called legal titans, giants,

[05:19] half of whom did it for free. >> Um, then you realize that you can you can put up a fight. And you know, I had something I had something that the government really hadn't planned on. As simple as it might sound, I had the truth on my side and they wanted to frighten me to the point where I didn't dare get on the stand to tell the truth. And I was absolutely willing to get on the stand

[05:49] and tell the truth. And so rather than me than than risk me going up on the stand and saying something that they didn't want the American people to know or to hear, they offered me this deal. They were furious about it. And you know what, John? When when my when I was getting ready to leave, my lead attorney pulled me aside and he said, "Listen, the CIA is furious that you got such a short sentence and they're going to try

[06:20] to set you up once you get there." And I was there about 6 weeks and sure enough, that's exactly what they did. They tried to set me up. I didn't take the bait and eventually they stopped. >> They tried to set you up when you went in? >> Yeah. Um, I had been in six weeks and uh there was an Afghan-American pharmacist who had an unfortunate oxycottton problem who lived on my housing unit >> and uh he came up to me, really good

[06:51] guy. He came up to me one day and he said, "Hey, John. Um, the spokesman for the Taliban just got transferred here and he wants to meet you." I said, "The spokesman for the Taliban?" I said, "Are you talking about that case in New Jersey?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "No, I don't want to meet that guy. I don't have anything to say to that guy." He said, 'Oh, okay. Couple of days pass. I'm out in the yard exercising, walking around the track, and this guy with a beard down to his waist is walking right toward me with

[07:21] his hand out like to shake my hand. I put my hands up. I said, "Don't you dare [ __ ] touch me." And he said, "Come on, man." He's got his hand out. "Come on, man. I just want to say hi." I said, "Don't touch me." And I happened to look past him and there was a guard in the woods outside the fence with a camera with a telephoto lens going tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick. I said so help me God. I'll punch you in the throat if you try to touch me. And he said he said we have a lot in common.

[07:53] I said we don't have anything in common other than I tried to kill people like you. So get lost. And he walked away and then they transferred him out. He was in my prison for 5 days. >> So he was he was definitely there for a sale. >> Oh yes. Oh yes. >> You know the the what you actually did and as everybody knows that the whistleblower I mean there's a lot of people call you whatever they want to call you but I find it interesting as well that that even back in the UK and

[08:26] other circles and other intelligence circles the jungle drums were beating and they had the same feeling. It seemed to like to me from investigations that they all had the same feeling. So was everybody waiting for you to be an example that would ripple through the whole IC community in the world? >> That is exactly what it was. One of the attorneys said to me, >> "This case is so much bigger than John Kiryaku. >> It's not about you. It's about frightening anybody else in the entire

[08:59] in the intelligence community who might be thinking of going public with evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. It's way bigger than you. And I I came to believe that that that was true. >> Yeah. Cuz everybody was watching all over the world. >> Uhhuh. >> Waiting on this, >> including Ed Snowden. >> Yes. Ed Ed Snowden told the New York Times that Tom Drake from NSA and I inspired him to do what he did.

[09:29] >> Wow. >> Do you think there's I mean I'm probably jumping ahead again, but you think there's a lot more to come? >> I do. >> In the future, >> I do. I do because the government is so corrupt. >> The signs are there. >> Oh yeah, the signs are there. Whether it's on Iran or the American relationship with Israel or again torture, section 702, rendition, assassination, secret prisons, whatever it is, spying on American citizens,

[10:01] whatever people are going to come out. >> What was it like for you, you know, as you were getting into that in the first week? Because the way that I see it is you essentially have in my mind you've been two prisons. You got the prison this material and then you got the prison of the mind because obviously you went through a really bad time with divorce and the family and everything else. >> How did you cope with the the fallout mentally from you going in there in the first week and then your family dealing with everything that they had to

[10:32] deal with cuz you were all over the news. This was big news. The world was watching. the intelligence community and every country going was watching. >> What about your family? Because everybody seems to forget your family. >> Yeah, my marriage didn't survive it. Um, which was a shock. I I I actually I'm prohibited by court order from giving the details. Um, not that I have anything to hide. >> No. No. >> Which I don't. Uh, but I I can't go into

[11:04] the details. Needless to say, my marriage didn't survive. Um, it's a situation like this, John, where where you really get to see who's with you and who's not. >> Mhm. >> And sometimes the ones who are not are the ones that are the most shocking. >> You never expected it. >> No. >> I think I've heard you saying that before and I think you mentioned you mentioned that in your book as well. Doing time like you know doing time like a spy which is anybody's list is an awesome book to go and listen to. Thank you.

[11:34] >> My my my wife absolutely loves it. >> Thank you. Much to my shock. It's in its third printing. >> I know. Honestly, it's a really It is a really good book. I I listened to that and I listened to your We went straight from your first one to your next one. My wife was absolutely enthralled with it, you know. >> Thank you very much. It's g I said she's a frustrated intelligent. Um, now obviously you're you when you went into prison, you mentioned in your book that you I kind

[12:04] of want to get into the humanity things cuz it seems to me listening to you >> in the book and going through it, >> a lot of people will say people in prison, they deserve to be in prison, but there there seems to be like striking elements where there's very little humanity there. >> Very very little. Very little. Honestly, it's it's every man for himself. I remember one of the guards overhearing one of the guards telling another prisoner, screaming at another prisoner, "Nobody gives a [ __ ] about you. Nobody gives a [ __ ] if you live or die."

[12:38] >> And that's true. >> That's that's daily life. Prison in the United States is about punishment, not about reform or education or preventing recidivism or teaching life skills. It's about punishment. We have draconian laws with draconian sentences. I know you know this statistic as well as anybody, but we have 5% of the world's population in the United States, but we have 25% of

[13:09] the world's prison population. >> I know it's crazy. You did me. >> Unacceptable. >> I've heard you mention that before. It is. But and I think the problem is is as you mentioned as well as you just mentioned there, you don't have any education. You don't have any rehabilitation. Not that I've ever been in prison, but I do know that back in the UK, and I'm not in the UK, I live in North Carolina now, but um back in the UK and other countries, they do have reform, they do have education, they do have resettlement, they do try to to

[13:41] change, help them to transform and change. I think in Germany and Sweden and different places. Why do you think America is the way it is? Why is it so draconian as you mentioned? >> Because this is what the American people demand. >> The American people, >> every American politician, everybody wants to appear to be tough on crime, but that is so shortsighted and so stupid because it encourages recidivism. We have a 50% recidivism rate. If you're a

[14:11] drug dealer and you get arrested and sentenced to to five years in prison, seven, eight years, whatever in prison, and you go to prison, and you can't learn plumbing or electrical work or small motor repair or even landscaping, you can't learn anything because you're locked up. Well, you get out at the end of your sentence and what's the only thing you know how to do? Sell drugs. And so that's what you're gonna go do again.

[14:44] >> Do you know that makes sense? You're just you're brings me back to a memory of my father. My father wasn't the cleanest guy in the world, but um there's a there's a prison in Scotland in Glasgow called Berlin and I remember back in the days my my dad came back home. I was a young kid and he came back home and he had these beautiful golf shoes and they were made by prisoners in the Berlin prison or there was and so and I've never seen anything like I mean, you see the chain gangs and thing here, but there seems to me from what you're saying, there's there's nothing like that. And there's maybe an

[15:14] opportunity there where it could add to society rather than taken away. >> Look at the look at the Scandinavian countries. I'm talking about about Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark specifically. Um, most of their prisons, most of them, not all, but most aren't even actual prisons by the US term, they are apartments where you've got bedrooms and a kitchen and then you have to take

[15:46] classes on life skills. You have classes on on uh vocational uh vocational technologies, vocational rehabilitation. You can learn how to fix motors and how to be a plumber and how to be an electrician and and how to do medical coding or I mean you can pick a half a dozen different careers and be trained. If you already have a career, you can continue on in your studies and then when you get out, you're

[16:17] automatically a productive member of society. And we have no such thing in the United States. And worse than that is there's no national will to even bother to develop something like that. It's all about the punishment. You know, I I find it really shocking because being an immigrant coming here and meeting the American people, I think, and I keep politics out of it, but and I think that's what we should keep politics out of these things obviously because I think we'd have a a bit more uh understanding. But I find in the UK,

[16:49] you know, it can be quite tough. It can be quite hard. people in general can not have the same kindness if you like in certain places where I find coming here and I came to America and I thought my everybody is they're really kind they're really and so for you to say that they just want to punish people that makes me sad because I look at I look at American society and and and I see young kids now and you know back back home you know you wouldn't have young kids saying oh yes sir no sir or yeah mom you know and

[17:19] being respectful you know, back home in Glasgow and as you probably know all, they can be quite rough and they have no respect. And so I find it quite sad that that's what is the perception now in American society cuz I never saw that. I I I love America and I love the people and I find them very supportive and very where they're not so much in the UK. And to say that kind of it does make me feel a bit kind of sad that that that's that's the that's what happened. And couple that with this. Over the last 20

[17:52] years, Congress has created 50 new crimes on average every year. Not 50 new laws, 50 new crimes >> every year. Things that a year ago were legal that today are felonies. Um, again, it's draconian. And so, I'll give you an example. This is one of my favorite examples because it's outrageous and it's common. So, there was a woman in Honolulu, Hawaii. She was a mid-level GS12 employee of the

[18:26] National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which is a part of the Department of Commerce. >> Yeah. >> And because she's a GS12, she's not making any money. Honolulu is very expensive. And so, she and a friend go into business together. They buy a boat. And on the weekends they take tourists out to the boat on the boat to go whale watching. So one day they're out there and they come across a pod of orcas feeding on a seal carcass. And so everybody runs to the uh side of the boat and they're

[18:57] taking pictures and videos and um somebody whistles at the whale to sort of keep it I guess on the surface, you know, better picture, whatever whatever reason. Not like the whale's going to do anything about it, but whistle at the whale. Okay. Few days later, there's a knock on the door. FBI. She answers the door. Uh, do you uh you have this boat? Yes. You take tourists out on the boat? Yes. Did you go last

[19:29] weekend? Yes. Did you see a pot of orcas? Yes. Did you whistle at the whale? She said, "No." Somebody did, but I didn't. But you know what she said? I videotape all of these outings and I sell the DVDs to the to the tourists. If you want, I can give you a copy of the DVD. They come back with a search warrant. They take all the DVDs. They take her phone. They take her computer. They seize the boat. They take everything.

[20:02] and they charge her with a felony count of interfering with the feeding of a wild animal, which is a felony under the Endangered Species Act. She fought that case >> for six years. >> She fought the case for 6 years. >> She didn't whistle at the whale. She ended up taking a guilty plea to a reduced charge just because it bankrupted her. And she ended up getting probation. She lost her boat. She lost her job. She

[20:34] lost her pension. She lost her friend. She lost every cent she ever earned. >> And you have to ask yourself, is the country better off because she was prosecuted? >> Are we safer? Are we stronger because she was prosecuted? But this is America today. This is what we do. I'm sure I mean I I've I've heard so many different silly laws and legal law because I I deal with lawyers all the time and when some of the cases they

[21:05] talk about that I that we have a chat about I'm like what are you >> may I add one and this is one that I was just told of recently. So I used to be an adjunct professor at Liberty University. Don't judge me. Lovely people. Even if we disagree they're lovely people. >> So don't judge anybody. So, one of them, one of the professors lives in a townhouse development, right? And one of his neighbors was burglarized. So, the police began going doortodoor.

[21:36] Did you hear anything? Did you see anything? My friend, you know, PhD political scientist, law-abiding citizen, he wants to help the cops. They they knock on the door. He invites them into the house, which you don't ever ever ever do. Don't ever invite a cop into your house. Don't speak to cops. >> Period. >> It's a mistake. So, he invites the cop into the house. >> Did you see anything? No, I didn't. Did you hear anything? No. You know, there was a car in the driveway a couple of days ago, but I don't really know

[22:07] anything. I But I I hope you guys catch them. Whatever I can do, let me know. As the cop is walking out, he sees one of those pill containers, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, where you put your pills in. And he says, "Ah, you got a pill container?" I do too. He goes, "High blood pressure? How about you?" He said, "Oh, that's that's my wife's." Uh, yeah, high blood pressure, diabetes, but she was in a car accident and um and so she's she's got to take these uh painkillers, you know, at a

[22:39] certain time. >> Yeah. The cop says, "May I see that?" Sure. He's got nothing to hide. He's a law-abiding citizen. He's there to help. He shows the cop the pill container. He opens it up. There are percoetses, one in the morning, one in the evening. May I see your wife? Sure. The wife comes out, you're under arrest. Why? Why? Because it is illegal to have controlled substances outside of their issuing containers.

[23:10] It's a felony. So, it was legal for her to have the percoetses in the little bottle that says Percoet subs prescribed to her. As soon as she took it out and put it in that pill container, that became a felony. >> That is absolutely crazy. And if guys, if you're listening to this on the podcast, then you you just can't see my face. I'm sure and and they're in their 60s. These aren't young kids we're talking about. They're in their 60s. But I said to him, they they fought this for a year. I

[23:41] talked to him a couple of nights ago. They fought it for a year. It was knocked down to a misdemeanor. They had to pay a fine and she had one year of probation. No big deal. But it's on her record for the rest of her life that she is convicted of a drug offense. This 65year-old woman convicted of a of a drug offense. Now, I said to him, I said, "Listen, I don't mean to be cynical, but this has become the truth for me. The cops don't

[24:13] get promoted by not arresting you. The the the prosecutors don't get promoted by not prosecuting you, right? So, everybody is a target. Everybody >> talk to cops." >> So, it's a business. >> Sure it is. I mean, half of our prisons are private prisons. Just look up the Geo Corporation. The way they make their money is to make sure every one of those beds is full and that they're feeding you animal grade food instead of human

[24:44] grade food and they're not giving you your medication. >> Yeah, you mentioned that in your letters from Lorettto, which I I listen to. >> Excuse me. >> You but you mentioned that, John. You mentioned that when that building initially I think when Lorettto it had it it housed I can't remember what it was maybe it was a hospital. But it it had there was space. But then >> when there was one, you had then eight people to a room where it would only be one or two. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The rooms for two had four. The

[25:15] rooms for four had eight. If you were lucky, you were in a room for four that had six. >> And sorry, allergy season is really killing me. >> Listen, it's killing me up here as well. I never had allergies until I came to the United States. Seriously, give me one second. >> Go for it. >> Yeah. So, this is something, like I said, I hate to be cynical, but this is something that you have to worry about. Of course, you've done nothing. Of

[25:46] course, you're innocent. Of course, you're a patriotic American and you want to be helpful to the to the authorities, especially where a crime has been committed, but that doesn't mean that they are your friends. >> No. >> And that doesn't mean that they're not going to target you. >> No. I think I've seen I've seen enough since being here where I I I have admittedly been shocked at why someone be arrested for this or why why it would be as bad as it is. And and I think listening to you talk, which is why I

[26:18] wanted to bring you on and talk about this is listen to you talk in your book about it. Um I find it absolutely fascinating. Well, it's not fascinating, it's sad as well how we treat even though Yeah. people, the bad guys go to prison. Absolutely. And they deserve to be punished. But I think there's people like in yourself and your case and other cases that don't need to get treated the way they get treated. And then where is the where is the problem? Is it at a government level? Is it a legal level? Is is it legal? Is there laws that need

[26:48] to be changed? And here's the other thing. I mean I because help lawyer we we work in all different states. Every state has got a different law. >> Yeah. Every state has a different law. That's right. >> That to me is I just wanted to >> I'll give you another example, too. Um because I have a federal felony conviction. I lost my gun rights for life. Well, the governor of Virginia, when I got out of prison, uh Governor Terry McCulliff, God bless this man, I had not even

[27:19] applied for a state pardon because I hadn't committed a state crime, but he followed my case. He thought I had been wronged and he issued me a pardon. It was symbolic, but it technically reinstated my state gun rights, but I still don't have my federal gun rights. So, if I go out to the Dallas Expo Center on Saturday to the gun show, which is there every weekend, >> Yeah. >> and I buy a gun, I'm perfectly within my rights according to the state of Virginia. But at the federal level, a felon with a

[27:53] gun is a mandatory minimum 5-year sentence. I could get eight years. >> Wow. >> Just for being in possession of a gun. >> Do you think you're still watched now waiting for you to trip up so that they so that I I probably didn't want to I do want to ask this. Do you think you're still getting watched now and waiting for you to do anything to slip up anything? Or have you got to such a point now where they're worried about maybe the influence that you have and also the

[28:24] intelligence that you have? cuz you clearly >> won a lot of case, you know, won a lot of stuff >> from the prison letters from Lorettto. >> I did. You know, I'm I'm very proud to say that a few weeks ago, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons called me and asked me if I would serve on an informal advisory council to advise him on how to reform the Bureau of Prisons. Wow. I said, "Absolutely, yes." I said, "But I don't think you're going to succeed." I said, 'Your problem is

[28:54] corruption. You guys are corrupt from the very top to the very bottom and everybody in between. And the first thing you're going to have to do, and I'm saying this as a lifelong union member and pro-UN activist, the first thing you're going to have to do is to break that union. >> Wow. >> Cuz all it does is support corruption and you'll never get it done, let alone done in the next two and a half years. >> What'd he say? >> He said, "You're probably right, but let's meet and talk about it." >> Yeah. He started off the conversation by saying, "You've been talking [ __ ] about

[29:25] the Bureau of Prisons for the last 10 years." I said, "Correction. I've been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for the last 13 years." >> I was going to say, and rightly so. >> And I said, "Because the whole system is corrupt and broken." >> Do you know what? There was there's times we were driving down the road and there would something would happen and the Bureau of Prisons would screw you over and you didn't get your you didn't get out and my wife would go that bastards. I can't believe they did that. She never swears or anything. You know, oh my god, that's horrible. You

[29:56] know, she's going nuts. >> They're horrible. They really are. >> Can you believe it? And and this and this is the problem. And I think, you know, where does this start? And here's the thing that I want to do is is not I mean just what we can do even we help lawyer with different you know hundreds of lawyers that are that are maybe listening to this listen this podcast in our network >> maybe something's going to tweak that they can start to look at this change but you're saying there's probably not going to be change. >> No I don't think they'll there will be change.

[30:26] >> What would you like to see in what would be an ideal situation for you John for the transformation of the prison reform? What would you think would what's the minimal thing that you're saying would change the direction of it >> of the Bureau of Prisons? I if if you could handle corruption, if you could address corruption, it would change everything. But there are so many different moving parts involved in addressing corruption. Uh >> first of all, the only qualifications to be a a prison guard in the United

[30:57] States, correctional officer, a prison guard is you have to be at least working on a GED. You don't even need a high school education, just working on a GED and no felony convictions. That's it. Um, there's a rule in the Bureau of Prisons that prisoners may not hand out the mail, but the prisoners always hand out the mail. Do you know why? >> No. Why? >> Because the guards can't read. >> The guards can't read.

[31:29] >> See, it is. >> And so they can't hand out the mail, so the prisoners do it. >> It's that bad. >> It's not bind. There there was something that happened when I was at Lorettto, FCI Lorettto, where um the there's a minimum security camp across the street and you're sort of on your honor not to run away and you have to follow the rules. Well, some of these prisoners against the rules got some money. You're not allowed to have cash and they ordered a pizza. And um when the pizza man came to drop

[32:01] off the pizza, he knows that there were other prisoners who were in the woods walking away from the prison. So, he went across the street to the actual prison and said, "Listen, I'm the pizza delivery guy." And not only did your prisoners order pizzas, but there were a couple of other prisoners who um were walking away. They're walking down the highway and the guards ran down there and caught them. They almost instantly hired the pizza delivery man to be a guard. His only

[32:34] qualification was that he had two eyes and they both worked and he could read apparently and so he's the new prison guard. >> So do you think that that there should be change to how prison guards are hired and and trained? >> Oh yeah, I do. I think there should be there should be huge changes. Uh, for example, uh, they're they're grotesqually underpaid. >> I I was being taken out to um

[33:09] to a um an orthopedist. I had broken my pinky finger. So, uh >> Oh, yeah. I remember you saying that in the book. >> Actually, it was this pinky finger. Yeah, I had broken my pinky finger. They So, they they chained me, shackled me, my ankles around my waist, my wrists, everything. I'm shackled. I can take a little baby step at a time. And um and uh they put me in the van and one of them there were two two in the in the front, a driver and passenger and one of

[33:40] them said, "I got passed over for promotion again." And the other one said, "You still haven't gotten that four?" And like it's any of my business. I said, "You're a GS4?" He said, "No, I got a I got passed over for a four. I'm a three. I said, "How do you feed yourself?" And he said, "Why?" >> He's making at the time, this is 10 years ago, he's probably making 20 or $22,000 a year. >> Oh jeez. >> And I He said, "Why? What were you?" I

[34:10] said, "I was a 15 and so was my wife." And we still had trouble making ends meet. >> Bloody hell. >> A three. It's no wonder they all live in this trailer park up the road from the from the prison. And then they're bragging, "Oh, I have a double wide. you only have a single wide. It's Yeah. I mean, this is how bad it is. And when I getting back to the issue of corruption, um, and this is something that I told the the BOP uh director >> was, you know, when when the commissary gets a shipment of Pop-Tarts, like an

[34:42] entire pallet of Pop-Tarts, we're talking about $5,000 worth of Pop-Tarts. >> Yeah. And then the guard backs up his Ford F-150 pickup truck and loads the entire pallet onto the pickup truck and takes it back to his double wide and sells it on Facebook Marketplace or on eBay. >> That's unacceptable. >> That is unacceptable. >> Same thing with $10,000 worth of batteries or with, you know, extension cords or, you know, bags of tuna or

[35:12] whatever. They steal everything. everything >> because they're untrained and they're undisiplined and they don't have any >> and and they're underpaid >> and they're underpaid because they need to survive. >> Yep. That was it. >> That's crazy. Do So you mentioned as well in your book that >> there's a big problem in the in in health. >> Huge, >> right? And I think that's another thing that the the the Bureau of Prisons need to look at because that was a few other,

[35:43] you know, >> shocking moments that, you know, made my wife scream. >> Um, >> yeah, >> the way you were treated with just even your your own your your pinky and other people were treated and people and and I have to say as well, John, was quite shocking. People dying that didn't need to die. >> Yeah. >> It happened. They're not >> They don't They're not treated like human beings. And this is a big issue in the prisons. >> And then you have the warden going to a

[36:13] terminally ill patient and saying, "If you sign a document promising not to sue us, we'll let you go and die at home." >> And he said no. And he died in in a steel bunk all alone. Do you feel that did you get any backlash about your book from the prison serviceman? I had to ask this because you didn't hold back like you freaking let it rip. >> And I told them, "Bring it because I'm not afraid of you." >> Wow. >> The warden repeatedly threatened me with

[36:44] solitary. Repeatedly. >> And I laughed at him once. We were standing in the hall right by the uh the uh mail room and he told me, "If you don't stop writing this book, I'm going to put you in solitary and I'm not going to let you out." And I said, "Oh, please." I told him. I said, "Warden, I've gone nose tonose with al-Qaeda, with Hezbollah, with the Iranians, and I'm supposed to be afraid of you. >> Please." I said, "Give me a little credit." I said, "I lived in Yemen."

[37:16] >> Yeah. >> Pakistan, Afghanistan. I'm not afraid of Lorettto, Pennsylvania. >> Wow. Do you think it was >> You think they were frightened of you then? >> Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you why. So, my best friend was an Italian, Mark. And um >> you mentioned him a lot. Yeah. >> Yeah. Mark, I just talked to him yesterday. He's he's like a brother. Like a brother to me. And so, um so Mark was talking to the one guard

[37:46] that everybody hated the most. Not me. I never had any interaction with this guy. He stayed on his side of the fence and I stayed on mine. But, um he went by the by the nickname Blue. He was the only person that covered up his name tag with uh with masking tape. He didn't want anybody to know his name. He was also the only guard that wore a stab vest because he was so cruel. He was afraid somebody was going to legitimately take a shot at, you know, stabbing him. >> So Mark was talking to Blue one day and he said, "Blue, where are you going to

[38:17] be for the next uh quarter and he said, "Oh, I'm going to be over in Central One unit." And Mark said, "My friend John is in Central One." And Blue said, "The CIA guy, I never mess with that guy." And Mark said, "Really? Why?" And he said, "That's all I need. I work eight hours here and then I go out to my car and CNN's standing next to it. No thanks." >> Jeez. >> So what I did is I filed a Freedom of Information Act request on myself. Much to my surprise, I got it six weeks

[38:47] later. It was mostly garbage. 250 pages. About 20 pages were important and there was one from several days before I arrived in the prison. It was a memo from the warden to all employees and it said subject arriving inmate John Kuryaku and then in these giant block letters it just says caution inmate has access to the media. >> I think though that was a blessing for you. I as I'm listening I'm like if he

[39:20] didn't have that access if he wasn't in the media his life would have been worse. He would have been it would have been a a Russian gul >> without without a doubt. >> Without a doubt >> and you would have disappeared essentially would gone. >> Yep. >> So I think I think your media presence was the the and who knows maybe it is going to be the thing that that will help to change especially now that you're talking with uh the director of prisons. What do you think the the What do you think lawyers need to try and understand from your case and from your

[39:51] history, your experiences there? Because it seems to me that the lawyers really don't understand it. They don't know enough of what's going on. They're just there to fight a case and that's it. But should they be getting more involved? >> Oh, I think they should. I'll give you another example, a very recent example. Um about three weeks ago, Senator Mike Lee went on to X Twitter and he said that a constituent of his in Utah called his office in a panic because they had a

[40:21] son in the Bureau of Prisons and the son all of a sudden just dropped out of contact. Uh emails aren't being answered. Nobody at the prison will give any information. So, Senator Lee picked up the phone and called the prison and said, "I'm Senator Mike Lee of Utah. I'm calling about my constituent so and so." >> Yeah. >> And the voice on the other end at the prison says, "You have a lot of [ __ ]

[40:52] nerve calling here." And hung up on him, a sitting US senator. That's crazy. So, I tweeted at him and I said, "Senator, I think I can help you on this. I got a call minutes later from his chief of staff and I said,"I think the constituent is in something called diesel therapy. What is that?" >> Yeah. >> The guy asks and I said, "Whenever a prisoner is deemed to be a problem." Like me, I was a problem and they threatened me with diesel therapy.

[41:24] >> What they do, >> I'll I'll give you a a madeup example. Starting at FCI Lorettto where I was, >> they'll take you to Lorettto from Lorettto and they put you on the prison bus >> and the prison bus goes to a prison in a maximum security prison in northeastern Pennsylvania where you just sit and wait for the next transfer. And then from there they take you to Harrisburg. From Harrisburg they put you on Conair, you know, the the B. >> Oh, yeah. They move you around. So you're you literally you're not

[41:55] traceable. Oh, you're just >> because when you're in what's called transportation status, you're not permitted access to a phone, to a computer, >> or to even a pen and paper, and literally no one has any idea where you are. And they can keep you in transportation status for years, transfer you to Atlanta, from Atlanta to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City to Yankton, South Dakota, South Dakota to Las Vegas, Las Vegas to Lampuk. Let's they'll just transfer you every couple of days, every

[42:27] couple of weeks for the rest of your sentence and nobody has any idea where you are. >> Wow. >> Because they know they can get away with it. And so we need lawyers to like step up, file injunctions, flood the courts, make the BOP respond. They have to put >> I've noticed that they don't seem to do it. I've got a friend of mine who's a criminal lawyer and >> it's because there's no money involved. >> Huh? >> There's no money involved. Poor people can't pay legal bills.

[42:57] >> See, that's the problem. And again, it boils down to this. It boils down to money. >> Yeah. >> It boils down to business and they can't defend themselves. >> I, you know, a lot of people go that Yeah. I get it. Look, prisons are there for a reason. If you're a really bad guy and you [ __ ] up, you're going to go in. You've done it, right? >> There are some people who society needs to be protected. Yeah, the >> pedophiles, the murderers, the violent people, the rapists, the drug uh traffickers. Yeah, we need to be protected from those people. >> Absolutely. I would agree with that. But

[43:27] there's a lot of people that don't. >> That's right. A lot. >> And they don't get any reform. And I don't see the law the lawyers need to make more of a noise. >> Yes. >> About it. And that doesn't seem to be that doesn't seem to be happen. >> What was it your your law firm or your lawyers? I mean, you're obviously have a great blessed >> for them. >> I was blessed. They were giants. They really were. >> Are they still helping? I mean, I don't obviously Are they still helping you now or or >> to I mean, thank God. Knock on wood. I don't I don't need any help. We're still

[43:59] in touch. We get together periodically for lunch. I lecture at their law school uh classes. One teaches at Georgetown, another at American University School of Law. Um, so yeah, we're and I've referred a half a dozen cases to them. They're they're giants. One has passed away. Two of the others are semi-retired, nearing retirement. Um, but but we're still in touch. These guys were were giants in my life.

[44:29] >> Did they recognize the same problems in the industry in in in the league? And >> yes, they did they ever voice it to you joining like look this is screwed up. This is this is bad, but there's nothing we can do. >> Constantly. Yes. Constantly. And And because they recognized the problems, that's why they were criminal defense attorneys. They took this all very, very seriously. >> Yeah. >> How did you cope mentally with your mental health? >> You know, it's funny. I I thought I was

[45:02] going to a minimum security work camp. That's what the judge said. >> You just made that at the beginning. Yeah. And actually, we were >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I thought I'm just going to, you know, keep my mouth shut, do my time, go home. And then they put me in the actual prison to to further punish me. And so I >> I hadn't really prepared to protect myself mentally. I was just kind of thrown in it. And on the very first day that I was in the prison, I'd only been in the prison for about 5 hours and there was mail call and a lady had sent

[45:33] me a postcard with a rose on it. um a lady from Ringold, Georgia who had followed my case and um and I thought, "What a thoughtful thing to do. I don't even know this woman." And she took time out of her day to send me this postcard. And I made a decision that very first day that I was going to respond to every letter that I received, not realizing I was going to end up answering 7,000 letters to 675 different people.

[46:05] But I did. So there were two things that passed the time for me and it was writing letters lots and lots of letters and writing doing time like a spy longhand which won two literary awards crazy enough. >> I know honestly you you did that long hand actually. You wrote that >> and you know what I had to do it twice >> because the guards seized the manuscript. They said it was a threat to the public safety and they disappeared. >> Oh. Yeah. You said that in the book actually. Your manuscript had disappeared. >> Yeah. They destroyed it.

[46:37] >> Do you think it >> pardon? >> Do you think you'll do a follow-up with that book? >> No. And I'll tell you why. I would I I've written 10 books now. That was my second. But I've recently been signed by the Creative Artists Agency, CAA. >> Yeah. >> And they told me in very clear English, you're going to write fiction from now on. >> Oh, dude. You definitely Yes. Yes. Right. Okay. I get it. That and

[47:09] that's probably that's right up your alley. Actually, >> I'm a little intimidated by it, but I I I've got 10,000 words done. And >> hey, look, if John McCari can do it, let's face it. >> I'm going to give it a shot. >> He had he had the history. He was with the service. >> Yep. >> And uh and did the same thing as, you know, many other people do. Yeah. I think that would be that'd be brilliant, actually. >> I'm going to try. I'm going to try. I think I can do it. My goal my goal is to have a hundred thousand words by the end of the year, but I it's hard. I'm gonna

[47:40] try. >> Dude, that's awesome. Yeah, I've written books myself actually and so I know how hard it is and I lost two manuscripts as I was writing them. >> I was writing it. I was writing a book and uh I was tied to uh Simon and Schustster and another one and Atria books and and I was writing two manuscripts at the same time. Don't ever freaking do that. Especially when you get the blue screen of death and then you lose a manuscript. Oh my god. And then I said I sent the manuscript in for one and I sent another one in and the

[48:10] editor coming back saying I don't think this chapter should be in this book. I'd mixed up the chapters from each book and put them in sent them in. So I was a total freaking screw up. So I get it. But I think that's freaking awesome that you're doing that. >> I'm trying. It's hard work. >> So did you do any legal stuff when you I mean when you were in in prison you had time. It seemed to me that you were studying a lot as well. I was I did I did two things. Um there was a Mexican drug cartel member in my cell who asked

[48:41] me if I was educated when I first arrived and I said yes. And he said um would you write my appeal? I said well I'm not a lawyer. >> Well yeah but you're educated. I said yeah you know what you're right. How hard could it be to write an appeal? So he gave me his case papers. He was completely totally utterly guilty. Plus, you know, when you get into a gunfight with the DEA and they catch you in the cocaine warehouse and you're bleeding out there. Yeah. You're guilty. >> You're guilty. You can't you can't you

[49:11] know, you can't get out of that. You can't lie your way out of that. >> No. So, I I wrote the appeal. It was all based on technicalities. The the appellet court acknowledged the technicalities, but they weren't they weren't important enough to have changed the outcome of the case. So, so we lost. But he told the other cartel members that I was a good guy, that I did his appeal, and that I didn't charge him anything. He offered me he offered me money in the form of of, you know, bagged fish, which was currency. >> I said, "No, no, no. I I have people on

[49:42] the outside. They they put money in my commissary account. I I'm good." >> And so he told everybody that I was a good guy, and I didn't charge them. And then near the very end of my um I'm very proud of this. near the very end of my uh sentence, I happened to be in Mark's cell, we would we would have dinner and we would hang out until it was uh recall where everybody's got got to go back to their own cells. And um so I'm reading the USA Today and there was an article about the the Second Chance Act. It had

[50:14] just been signed into law and I said, "Buddy, did you read this article?" And he said, "Nah, not really." I said, "This article is about you. What do you mean? He says, and I said, if you have a draconian sentence and if you if you had committed the same crime today and you would have gotten a lighter sentence, you can appeal. And I said, he said, I I don't even know how I would do that. I said, I'll do it. So, I wrote the appeal and I sent it to

[50:45] the Justice Department. and um he had to send it to justice and then justice would submit it uh to the courts. And then I was released in February. In August, his mother called me and she was crying and I answered the phone and I said, "Oh my god, what happened to him?" I thought something terrible had happened and she said, "They're letting him go. You won that appeal." >> Wow. I think you mentioned it in your book, didn't you?

[51:16] I couldn't believe it and they let him go. >> You either mentioned that in your book or you mentioned a podcast I listen to. >> Yeah. One or the other. I'm I'm very happy to say Mark is now literally the most successful real estate agent on the New Jersey shore. >> Is he really? >> Yeah. Do you know what's an example of how someone can go into an incarcerated life and come out and actually come out the other side and be successful? >> He should have never been in prison in

[51:46] the first place. You know, this is something also that I said in the book that there's this there's this joke, this ongoing joke that everybody in prison's innocent. Well, you know what? A lot of people in prison are innocent. >> No, I would I believe that. I believe there's a lot of people going unnecessarily. But if you've got 50 years hanging over your head and they're offering you two, you know, in the words of one of my attorneys, this can be the a blip in your life or it can be the defining event in your life. Make it the blip. Take the deal. >> You think it was it was probably it's a

[52:19] hard I know I know you're going to say, but this was a blessing for you in the end. Well, my brother told me on the day of my arrest, he said, "I know you can't possibly see this right now, >> but this is going to turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you." >> And it did sound insane when he said it, >> but it turned out to be true. >> Now, you mentioned a couple of times you were suicidal. Was that before you went in or when you were in there? >> Before. >> Yeah. >> How did you How did that Is that because you were There's an element of grief.

[52:49] I'm kind of well known for dealing and helping people cope with grief. So there's an element there obviously that I see that obviously you were grieving what was and the life that you had. >> It it was it was the prospect of dying in prison. >> Really? Yeah. >> 45 years. I mean 45 we can't there's there's there's no wiggle room there. >> So you were anticipating that that was the end. >> That was it. >> Wow. >> 45 years and they stuck with that for 10 months. 45 years. Take a plea. Sure. 45

[53:20] years. Don't take a plea. You're still getting 45 years. >> Wow. >> How did you How did you get over that hump that I'm going to fight? That >> my wife told me they have consistently underestimated your resolve. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You're far tougher than they think you are and you can fight this. And my lawyers, they wanted to go to trial. We talked about it until literally the last

[53:51] minute. And uh I I was fully prepared to go to trial. And oh my god, I might have accidentally said some of the horrible crimes against humanity and war crimes that I witnessed in 15 years at the CIA while on the stand testifying on my own behalf. >> They didn't want that. >> No. I and I I I I know that other other agencies and other places of the world

[54:22] didn't think that was the right thing either. >> That's right. >> And and that was and that was a big >> I I just happened to to have this. I was recently given the highest award that the Irish government bestows. They've given one gold medal per year since 1777. And of the last seven recipients, the last eight recipients, it's the president of Ireland, the president of Finland, five Nobel Peace Prize winners,

[54:53] and me. >> The the government of Luxembourg gave me a medal for truthtelling. I'm I'm celebrated in Greece and in Iceland and and elsewhere. It's it's the United States that's wrong on these issues. Other countries recognize it. >> John, why didn't you leave? Why did you stay in America? I suppose that's a loaded question. >> Well, I've got five kids here and uh >> Well, that's obviously Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah. And my my wife is here. I'm I'm

[55:24] proud to say that I've become a dual US Greek citizen. >> I vote I vote in Greece. >> I hope to buy some property in Greece by the end of the year >> and I'm going to split my time. >> But damn it, this is my country and I'm not going to let them force me out of it. >> You are very patriotic. Contrary to what a lot of people say, you come across to me for from somebody who's a Scotsman who's coming from the UK, I do see you as very patriotic. >> What do you mean contrary to what some people say? >> Well, a lot of people Well, some people

[55:55] will say there's that whole idea he's a traitor. He's a he's he's a he's a you know, he loves America. And I think that's unfair where people label you wrong because you're definitely a patriot. >> Only morons >> Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah. say stupid things like that. You know, the treason, I've actually written about this a couple of times because treason is specifically defined in the Constitution. It's providing aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war. Period. >> We throw around that word treason,

[56:27] traitor, all the time. And it it's become meaningless. >> It has. >> And I'll put my record and reputation up against anybody's anybody's in America. I think I I I I've got to get you back on this because I'd love to dive into the whistleblower side of things for the legal industry because I think that's there's a lot to say. >> I have to get you back. If you will if you will come back on, I'd love to talk about that and maybe even get get some lawyers on because I think that's a that's a big thing. Do you think I mean you have had now you're enjoying success

[56:59] and you may be a catalyst to potential change? >> I hope possibly. >> I hope. Do you think that do you think you're going to have any any potential power to change anything because of your infamy now and and you know the way that you've if I do if there's going to be change it will be only because of this infamy that I've developed. I somebody told me the other day that they saw a

[57:30] marketing study saying that I am the most popular person in America among males between 15 and 30. >> Really? >> Yeah. Like where did that come from? >> Dude, I think you're going to end up in GQ magazine at some point. >> I I did a thing for GQ. >> Yeah. I'm embracing it. People listen to me because I tell the truth and so I'm running with it. >> Do you ask what my wife said? My wife is no fool. And my wife said when she listened to you, she said he's speaking

[58:02] from the heart and he's telling the truth. >> I'm trying my best. >> And you can tell everybody else has got different agendas >> and I think yeah, you definitely you've definitely got a lot to say and I think your experiences, John, have been absolutely phenomenal. And um I do want to get you back on. There's a lot that we can talk about on on help lawyer and I think there's there's a lot of our lawyers will be really interested to to see this. I think we've definitely got to do more about the whistleblower thing because I think there's going to be more

[58:32] of it >> a lot more of it. >> There's a lot to say and I think there's a lot to say that lawyers especially would be interested in. >> Yeah, definitely. I think this is um this this has been awesome just having a general a chat to get to know you and uh let everybody know what you're up what you're up to and and how they can read your books. >> Thank you. Thank you for that. I've got a whole bunch of books uh out and coming out. There's one coming out next month, one coming out the month after. Uh

[59:03] they're all on Amazon. Just go to John Kuryaku Books and it they'll all pop right up. But I'm also starting a new podcast in just the next two and a half weeks on YouTube. It's called John Kuryaku's Briefing Room. And I'm really proud to say that I've got a podcast. We're just finishing the third the second season. Uh it's on Apple Podcast and Spotify called John Kiryaku's Dead Drop. >> We listen to it. >> It's crazy popular. I can't believe we get these numbers in the morning and I'm

[59:34] like, you've got to be kidding. you started we Joe and I we finished your book and we started another book and Joe was like ah this is a bit but not one of your books it was another book says this is boring it's not something else you got another one of John's okay I said well I've got dead drop let's get that so downloaded it and she loved the stories of you in Greece and your mother and all this cuz she loves to hear about the stories so so we've been listening to dead >> thank you and Apple podcast likes it so much they asked me to do a different one in season 3 they wanted me to do they're

[1:00:05] calling it um oh um the spies guide too. So I'm going to I'm going to do the spies guide to London, Paris, Vienna, Athens, Abu Dhabi, Tokyo, Bangkok, >> go all over the world. Tourists see a city one way, spies see it in a completely different way. So we'll do each city from a spies perspective. >> I love that. I love that. Where's your favorite city then in Europe? in the UK. >> Well, you know, I'm I'm a sucker for

[1:00:36] London. I I >> You really I hate >> I am. I I spent the happiest year of my life in London, but I love love love Athens. >> I mean, I I love a lot of places in Europe, but I love Athens. I love Manama and Abu Dhabi. >> There are a lot of places that I would be perfectly happy. >> I was I was based in Kent. I was and I had to travel to HQ from Kent from Canterbury 4:00 in the morning up. I got a train two hours in the rat race then

[1:01:09] into Kings Road and in the barracks there and I hated but I at the time I was living in campus was married and I used to be based in in Kent and Sir John M of an ex-military obviously tell and um I hated it. I freaking hated London. And I remember when I came here and my wife had said, "Look, we've got to go to London and get our visa stamp." I'm like, "Oh god, are you kidding?" >> Hated it. But I love it from the the spies guide to Yeah. Vienna. I'd love to hear that because that I think that's

[1:01:40] the that's the seat of Trade Craft right there back. >> It really was. It was Vienna was the seat of Tradecraft. >> Guide to Vienna will be phenomenal. We do a podcast episode on that one. Well, we we'll have fun with that one. >> John, I I want to thank you. I know, you know, I could speak to you for hours and hours. There's so much to say, but I definitely want to get you back on and whatever we can do in our legal network to to support you and support the work we're doing. >> Um, let's do that. Anything you want any any listeners, any lawyers, anything you want any of the lawyers, guys,

[1:02:11] >> if you're running your law firm and you want John to come in and talk, please >> happy to talk. Happy to do it. >> Get in touch with them. We've got 800 law nearly 800 law firms in the network. So I'm sure somebody's going to hear this. So great. Get in touch with them. John Kyaku, thank you for being my guest. I'm glad we didn't speak about all the stuff that you've been speaking about. >> Oh, I'm so glad. This was refreshing. Thank you. >> I I really enjoyed it and I can't wait to have you back on. >> I look forward to it. Thanks for the invitation. >> You've been listening to the Legal L where law meets the unseen layers of

[1:02:43] clarity, leadership, and inner alignment. If this sparks something in you, trust that feeling. Let it lead you. For deeper insights, real conversation, and strategic guidance, connect through the Help Lawyer Network and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you prefer a more private connection, you'll find the path when you're ready. Until next time, stay present, think deeper, and lead wiser.
