Title: DeProgram with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou: “Interview with Reality Winner”
Show: DeProgram Show with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas
Date: 2025-09-30
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=413mDuoRtiY
Duration: 1:20:02

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[00:56] Hi everyone, thanks for joining the DProgram show with Ted R and John Kuryaku. Uh it is a pleasure to be joined today by reality winner. reality winner is of course uh I would say an American hero. Uh she's the author of a new book called I Am Not Your Enemy. Um great read. Uh go out and get it. Uh she's also a former US uh Air Force uh senior airman as well as a former uh and

[01:27] also an NSA whistleblower who served time in federal prison for violating the Espionage Act. something that you and John have in common. Um, so, uh, let's just get to it. Um, and talk about, uh, you know, I'm I think, you know, I'm not going to go chronologically here. I'm going to I think it's start important to say, so let's get to the main event. we can work backwards to the chronological stuff, but I I'm super I wrote a book about Edward Snowden and um you know,

[01:58] one of the and my weighin for for that book and I'm really interested in I I'm so honored to be with really both of you here today um was the fact that you know hundreds of thousands of people had access to the same exact information as Edward Snowden and only he chose to step forward and I wanted to kind of know what was it about him, why him? Why not all these other people that caused him to see all these things that were plainly wrong, illegal, um violating the

[02:28] Constitution and our basic privacy rights of Americans and people around the world. Um why did he what was different about him? And so, you know, that that was the exploration that I was interested in and I think I'm interested in that with you as well. So, um, reality, if you can just sort of tell us, um, where you were working, uh, when the NSA document in question came into, you know, crossed your crossed your path and, uh, sort of what happened next.

[03:01] Well, I will say I have so much in common with Ed Snowden, and I'll get to that at the end of this answer. But to start off, I was working at Fort Gordon, Georgia. Um, it was what I considered a temporary position to uh renew my security clearance, which was going to expire um the January after I had gotten out of the Air Force. So they expire like every five years I think or something like that. I think I had started it in 20

[03:33] um whatever it was it was going to expire very soon and because I didn't have an active position at NSA. The job recruiters that I was talking to trying to get a position at Bram in Afghanistan weren't interested in hiring me until I had an active security clearance. And so I just took the next available position as a linguist. I didn't even know if it was going to be on Fort me or Fort Gordon. I just took it um and hoped for

[04:06] the best. >> Fort me is NSA headquarters. >> Yep. In Maryland. Yeah. >> Um I had rented a house in Georgia and so I had accepted a job and luckily that job happened to be in Georgia as well or else I would have panicked. Um, but they renewed my security clearance during that year and I was already at the time of my arrest um, talking to other recruiters trying to get a new contract in Afghanistan. >> And you were a translator in two of the

[04:37] well in three of the major languages spoken in Afghanistan, right? Pashto, Dari, which is Persian and Arabic. >> Not Arabic yet. It's always been something I've been trying to learn on and off again. Um, but like it's kind of like one of those things where if you read like a sign in Spanish and you're like, "Oh, I kind of like given the context, I know what they're saying. If I had like, you know, something in Arabic at like a restaurant or something, I I could figure it out." >> Okay.

[05:07] >> Yeah. So, one of the things that led me to be kind of vulnerable is that I was very disconnected from what I was doing because they gave me Farsy, which was an Iranian mission. which I was not interested in. And then also they had assigned me to this workshop and nobody really knew I was there. It was just one of those wonderful uses of our tax dollars where they were just giving people contracts and then putting them in offices and nobody knew what I was

[05:40] actually sent there to do. And my direct supervisor was overwhelmed and he was one of those guys that doesn't know how to delegate. M. >> So he was like, you know, just go do this, go do busy work because I don't have the emotional capacity right now to bring you on board to this mission. So that was my first three months of working at that contract when I saw the document. Um, >> so you're at you're at a p So this is not the you're not at NSA, you're at a

[06:12] private contracting company. Yeah. No, I am in NSA government contractors. I am in Fort Gordon in the giant shiny NSA building that was brand new at the time. >> Gotcha. Go ahead. Yeah. Um, but what I will say is when I read I read Edward Snowden's um, autobiography or his memoir in prison, someone sent it to me and I think what you touched on like why one individual saw it is that when he went over his childhood, we had

[06:43] played all the same video games, you know, being very similar in age. And the point of all of these video games, Kingdom Hearts, Legend of Zelda, um I think he listed a couple more, but he was really into Zelda. And it's just you're one person. >> He also liked Magic the Gathering, right? >> Yeah. And it's like it's very much one person in that universe. like we call it now like main character energy. But a lot of us millennials that grew up with these storylines, it's one person who

[07:16] wakes up and realizes they're special and they can do something that nobody else can. And I think we both kind of had that sort of like this is going to be really hard. There's going to be some really evil people, but it's going to be an adventure. >> I have a question for you. reality. One of the things that I learned very early on in my own whistleblowing experience is that almost no whistleblowers consider themselves to be

[07:47] whistleblowers. In fact, when I when I met with Jesseline Raak from the Government Accountability Project for the very first time, it was just a couple of days after my arrest. Um I was walking out of her office and I said, "Thank you so much for for helping me. I know that you help whistleblowers and I'm not a whistleblower. And she said, "You are a whistleblower." I said, "I'm not. I'm just a guy." And she said, I I remember her exact words. She said, "There's a legal definition of whistleblowing. It is

[08:18] bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety." She said, "Motivation is irrelevant." Mhm. >> Well, it was my experience after that that Ed didn't think he was a whistleblower. Uh, looking back at Tom Drake, Tom was adamant that he wasn't the whistleblower. And of course, in the end, we all were. We just didn't realize it. I remember in early comments that you made that you said you weren't the whistleblower. And it made me chuckle

[08:49] because we had all go gone through the same thing. Do you see now how important your whistleblowing was? Has it finally registered with you now that you you have the the benefit of a of a few years uh where you can look back and and see how you how you affected the the political debate on these issues? >> I don't simply because >> I knew you were going to say that. >> I think that part of like the the definition of whistleblower does not

[09:19] include sneaking documents out in your underwear. Um >> or how about on a thumb drive if you're Edward Snowden? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. Um, so for me, just because I know that even though it did affect public safety in a way, it wasn't necessarily something that the um it was not something that showed that

[09:50] our government was doing something wrong or malicious to the American people. And I did do the illegal thing of sending it to a journalist. And you know, I wish I And that was one of the things too of feeling so isolated was seeing that and just being so certain that every other individual that works for the federal government had also seen it. >> And that wasn't true. Like I should have

[10:21] taken that document straight to Congress. If I had driven that up and handed it to a senator that I had trusted, >> then I would say I'm a whistleblower, but instead I sent it to an online news agency. And it was outside of my power, it was completely ineffective because they had no interest in giving that document to the public. >> Right. >> Only until they found out that I had been arrested. >> Right. So, let's so let's continue with

[10:53] like the um and I mean Tom Drake and Ed Snowden both Tom Drake did go the cong the congressional route and was frustrated uh and it didn't work to say the least. >> Didn't work in that he it bought him seven counts of espionage and two counts of theft of government property which was the information that he walked out with in his head. Snowden took note of that and that's why he went the uh the uh the the the media route. So, okay.

[11:25] So, you're you're So, okay, go on. You're you're back at NSA and I mean I'm interested in the in the document and like you know what it was and you know why you thought it was important and needed to come to public attention. Honestly, it was just like the most read report at the time. And everybody was like maybe not the document itself, but um this information is going to be leaked either by Congress or it's going to be like it's going to be in the news

[11:57] by this weekend. And it wasn't. >> So if you thought it was going to be leaked, why did you leak it? >> Because it wasn't. So tell us what was in it for people who don't know. >> I can't say. >> Okay. All right. So I can say um so uh according to news reports um this was a document that uh that that basically it's a report about uh Russian attempts to hack into um election um into

[12:29] election counting mechanisms during the 2016 election and using uh fish spearing attacks which is basically uh sending an email for example or a text and saying like please click here um in order to try to gain access to uh information and uh voter registration, voter info, etc. Uh and so basically this was evidence, possible evidence of Russian, let's just say maybe not interference in an election, but certainly an attempt to

[13:00] gain access to private information that should not be available to anyone but the board of elections, I think is fair to say. Okay. So, you see the document in question and um you and you thought it needed to come to the attention the public needed to know. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why? Because in 2017 that was there was one question that was being asked every single day

[13:31] and it was not something that we had as a nation really um had faced before like people it was just one debate that was going on and I honestly felt like it was the NSA's job or at least it was someone in government's job to lay bare the actual facts for everybody. I get just felt like that was their responsibility instead of letting it

[14:02] fment to such a toxic level that you know things weren't getting done you know but obviously that government administration wasn't going to do it. >> Um and it just frustrated me so much. Um your mom and stepfather were very very active around your um your trial and your incarceration. Uh they did

[14:33] literally everything they could think of to uh to draw friendly uh support to your cause. And at the end of the first Trump administration, they were actively seeking a pardon or a commutation for you. Did you make any headway in that first time around and would you consider applying for a pardon the second time around? >> Um, so right now the office of the pardon is not available and I think just

[15:04] based off of like a general moral decency this time around. I'm not really interested in having things in common with like January 6 insurrectionists, >> right? Um, at the time at the end of the first Trump presidency, uh, we were absolutely languishing in federal prison due to the COVID pandemic. >> And my whole story, it's kind of like a slapstick comedy because it's like, you

[15:34] know, one scene it's uh, Comey and Trump in, you know, in the Oval Office and and in their respective government agencies saying the next person that leaks is going to die. And then you have me mailing the document out because like doo I had no idea that was being said. >> Yeah. >> Um we had somebody in our team get a memo about my pardon in the White House on its way to the Oval Office. Like it was right there

[16:06] outside of the door and the news broke about the call with Zalinski getting leaked. So obviously no sympathy for leaker. Like the person with the memo just turned around and walked away. >> Timing is a [ __ ] >> It is. I can tell you in my own case too. Um and I I got this from someone with direct like regular access to the president. He told me that on the last

[16:37] day of the Trump presidency, January 19th of 2017, that he was preparing to pardon Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, and me, and got a call from Mitch McConnell. Um, now Mitch McConnell has never heard of me, but Mitch McConnell told Donald Trump, "If you pardon Assange and Snowden, I will release Republican senators to vote their conscience on whether or not to convict you on the charges that had

[17:09] been referred to the House." And so Trump canled the pardons. There was that kind of pressure from Republican senators and he he caved. He did pardon Lil Wayne though. >> You know what? And that was the nature of the call that I got from my friend. He says, "Are you sitting down?" And I said, "Yeah, what's going on?" And he said, "He's pardoning little Wayne." And I said, "Little Wayne." And he says, "Little [ __ ] Wayne is getting a pardon today." I was like, "Oh my god."

[17:41] I said, "The world's upside down. I don't know what I'm going to do." >> It's very [ __ ] up. Um, okay. So, I I want to get back to the leak, though. So, uh, you you you get this document, you you print it out at work. Correct me if I if I'm wrong about any of these details. You you you you and you sent it off to The Intercept, which is, of course, uh, the progressive uh, formed by uh, founded by Pier Odiar, uh, media organization that was, uh, where

[18:11] Glenn Greenwald was working at the time as a as an editor. Um, and you were obviously hoping that they would publish some an article about it and uh bring it to the attention of the American people. Um, in terms of spy craft or trade craft, um, did you I mean did what steps were you concerned about being caught and uh, so what what steps did you take? Like for example, did you avoid putting fingerprints on the package? Did you mail it from far away? Did you know I

[18:43] know you got caught because of the printer but and also because the intercept [ __ ] up but uh they were really incredibly um careless to say the least. Shoddy journalism to say the least. Um >> but anyway so what steps did you take? Did you handr write did you handw write the label? Did you print out the label? You know what I mean? >> Um so it was just um how to get the document out the building. Um, so don't carry it out.

[19:13] Um, uh, like I said, I I did hand write the label. I did put to the intercept on it, right? Um, I just put like a generic name and then sent it to their secure mailing address. I did not mail it right away. I just sent it from a USPS box that was most convenient for me, like a day later. uh the one that was nearest to the yoga studio where I just happened to be subbing that night. Um

[19:44] other than that, I just knew that the envelope being nondescript and getting to the intercept. Um they would see it, realize it was important, I guess, verify it. I don't know. It had the logo. Like what more was there to verify? um and that information would be released to the people and >> and you thought this was going to a journalistic organization so you didn't have to worry about you know the FBI

[20:14] crawling all over uh you know searching for fingerprints and uh you know you're basically sending it to Bob Woodward in 1972. Right. >> Right. >> Exactly. And I had thought too is like everything was so high-tech. They're looking for thumb drives. They're not going to be like, "Oh, they got this information from a piece of paper sent in the mail." Like, they were going to be looking for or if they had not just like thrown the document out there in the public,

[20:46] they would be like, "Okay, well, who in Congress is calling the press?" You know, like they would have thought it would be given like orally over the phone or by WhatsApp or something secure, not like the lowest possible technical means. >> This is like when they mailed the pope the hope diamond. Um, >> exactly. >> What did Why did you choose the intercept? >> Because >> they sent it to me. I wouldn't have turned that wouldn't have happened to you if you'd sent it to me. >> Um, because they said if you see something, leak something. Um, they did

[21:19] have their history with Snowden. They were all former government veterans. >> They really cared about national security. >> Um, I mean, they were talking about Yemen in 2015. Nobody was talking about Yemen in 2015. These guys were so connected and queued in and talking about the things that mattered because I felt like they were like me. They were seeing the bigger picture. And I thought, of course, these people are going to know exactly

[21:50] how to give this information out to have the best effect possible. >> Did you consider Wikileaks? >> Um, I didn't really know how to use the dark web, so no, that wasn't really an option. I'm not good with computers. I'm good at breaking computers. >> Okay, so the intercept, so the intercept receives it. um from what we know um they they get the package and they first of all we don't know that they're interested in even doing an

[22:22] article they don't seem to find it interesting and we I want to get to that but someone from the intercept the rep reporter who's assigned to it or who's dealing with it then takes it to his buddy at the NSA and basically says hey will you verify this and hands not like a photo of it or image of it, but like the actual physical envelope and paper. I mean, I'm sorry. He went full [ __ ] Yeah. >> And and he handed it over to the NSA,

[22:54] who of course >> went to work doing what the NSA does >> and in probably five seconds, right, they had like the everything that people don't know. I didn't know this until I read about your case that like everything that's printed out of from a from a printer like I have one right behind me here has a little uh invisible dot kind of like an old fax machine like identifying piece uh image but you can't it's a it's a watermark and uh you can ex you can get to it if you know what to do. NSA knew what to do. So they were

[23:25] able to be like, "Oh, this this machine is at this office at at NSA." And so at that point, your arrest is becomes inevitable. >> Is that basically right? >> It is. Um he didn't give them the envelope at first. This is how freaking stupid it was. His friend was like, "Wow, that's really interesting. Can I see the envelope where it came from?" And then he's like, "Sure. I mean, it's just an Augusta, Georgia area code

[23:57] stamped on the envelope. What What harm could come from that? >> I'll tell you, >> you should never work in journalism again. Sorry. >> Well, you know what? Let me let me add to that. Uh because that's an important statement you just made, Ted. The the two the two Intercept journalists that were responsible for sending you to prison were the two Intercept journalists responsible for sending me to prison. >> No way. And oh, the same guys. The two same guys. >> And Daniel Hail and Terry Aubry.

[24:28] >> Thank you for saying that. You're exactly right. I tweeted after your arrest. I tweeted serious I tweeted at the Intercept. I said serious question at Intercept. Are you guys just [ __ ] stupid or are you working for the FBI? >> It's a good [ __ ] question. And of course they never responded but it was a serious question. If you are a national security journalist then you know and have known since you became a

[25:00] national security journalist that identifying information is embedded in the in the documents. It can be in the dot of an eye. It can be in a period. The the naked eye can't see it. That's why they wanted an actual copy of the document. >> Of course >> that they could see where it came from. But if you're a national security journalist, one who who you know has a website about himself and about what a great and important national security journalist he is that he's either a [ __ ] or he's working for the

[25:32] government. One >> John any any journalist. You don't have to be a national security journalist. Any journalist. I mean you don't burn a source. I mean you know you go to you go to prison for the rest of your life rather than burn. >> Look at poor Daniel Hail. Poor Daniel Hail. He he gives uh his information to the intercept and then they put him on a three-member panel to repeat the information that he gave them. It was it was a matter of hours. >> I mean, John, you bring up an important point. I mean, if if in terms of the intercept guys, right? I mean, like if

[26:04] if they're not going to run an article and there's no Oh, kitty. Um if there's if if you're not going to run the piece, you don't need to authenticate it. >> No. >> Right. You don't need to authenticate the material at all. >> No. Yeah, exactly. They they were taking themselves way too seriously. Um >> Matt Cole is just messy. It's by design so that they can be like, "Oh, well, we stand with the martyrs of free speech or the martyrs of whistleblowing." Like, you can't really have a whistleblower without somebody getting caught, right?

[26:35] >> And be like an anonymous whistleblower. Nobody likes that story. >> And >> so he's doing it by design. I've got a monkey on my back. Oh my gosh. >> Dad usually does too. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But um it's completely on purpose. Um and my goal moving forward is to make sure that everybody knows that. They will purposefully screw you over so they have something to write about. >> Yeah. >> That's all they do. >> You're really convinced of that.

[27:05] >> Fully convinced that all they do is cause chaos. And that's why um Laura Press isn't there anymore. there were some people that cared and it's like even at the point to where I know that Glenn was the number one voice that did not want to publish the document. >> Why? um certain countries that um he's interested in, stuff like that. But he didn't >> You think it was political like

[27:36] basically because of the narrative uh that was contained in there like like went counter to his personal politics? >> Exactly. Yeah. It went counter to his own personal interest, so he didn't want to publish it. And I I felt some type of way about that at first, but then I realized like he wasn't even there. Like he just said, "We're not going to publish it. If they never published it, then I don't go to prison." It was Matthew Cole being messy like, "Oh, we're not going to publish this,

[28:08] but I want to give it to my buddy because now I want to find out where it came from." >> Like, why would you verify something if Glenn said don't publish it? >> So, like, >> he should he should have set it on fire. Exactly. They should have disposed of it. Just let it go. And that's honestly what I did. That's I think one of the reasons why I don't remember why I walked out with that document because for three weeks afterwards I was like, "Oh, like they're not going to publish it." Like let me just pretend like this

[28:40] never happened. So wait, so for a couple of days, were you expecting to turn on the even to see a news a news alert on your phone like breaking and it was going to be like, "Oh my god, that's me." >> I think I was shaking for six straight days. Like I was like giving myself ulcers over it. >> Yeah. >> And then by like day 10, I was like, "Okay, it's lost in the mail. Let's just never do this again." >> I threw it into a hole. >> Yeah. I just like locked that away. I just compartmentalized it and moved on. >> [ __ ] I'm so sorry. Um, God, I mean, I'm

[29:14] so ashamed for my profession, really. Um, and I have all every time I've thought about that, I've always been like, these [ __ ] [ __ ] Okay, so all right, so what happens next? >> Um, well, and that's why people are like, why did you go to Bise and come back? Right? Because I had just like thrown away the memory that I had done something terrible. Um, and then >> the timing there. So like you So you after how long after you mailed did you

[29:45] >> two weeks probably about two weeks. I mailed the document like on a Tuesday and then a couple >> by the way I stayed at the same at one of the same hotels as you did. They told me they were there. It's pretty funny. >> The monkey resort. >> Yes. Amazing. >> My favorite place in the world. Oh my gosh. >> Beautiful. Yeah. >> Um wonderful family too. Yes. really like those people. Um, >> so yeah, it's just like then they had showed up and obviously now we know with

[30:16] the Broadway play and the the movie um just how violating that uh completely consensual interview was, right? Um I was free to walk away at any time. >> So So wait, so let's go back to that. So let's set the stage. Sorry, reality. So, you're home when they show up or you come home and they're already there. What happens? >> I had just come home and then that was another thing too like one of the ways

[30:46] that they kind of especially for women that they try to put you off guard >> is that on Saturday mornings like I get up and I was out the door by 6:30 to the gym. >> Um I was at the gym for maybe four hours. um went out to lunch with a boy and then was supposed to go back to his place that night to watch a movie, but I needed groceries and stuff like that cuz I meal prep on Sundays. So, I went to like the

[31:18] nearest Kroger and my whole thing was I was not drinking alcohol at the time, but I was like, I kind of want to bring like one of the larger 22 ounce craft beer bottles over. And so, I had picked one up. I had put it in the dairy, gone back and gotten it, walked around a bit, gone and grabbed a different one, walked around a bit, gotten a six-pack, walked around a bit, and then went back for another bottle and then put the bottle like it was for me. I like obviously I

[31:50] didn't know the FBI was following me. >> So, I didn't get back to my house till like 2:30, 3:00 in the afternoon. And so I pull up and I park and I'm like grabbing like my freaking giant bag of kale and ice cream from my car and they pull in behind me and they're like, "Hey, you've been gone a while." And I'm like, "Okay, I'm sorry." Like I was just like so embarrassed because like you realize, "Oh my gosh, they're

[32:21] following me. They're probably thinking I am an evil genius trying to lose them on my trail and I just can't decide. >> You knew you knew immediately when you saw them who it was. >> No, >> no, >> no. Because they had no identification. They just looked like they were there for Masters the golf tournament because they were wearing like pastel polo shirts. >> Yeah, I've seen them. >> And I think Garrick was wearing like Yeah, he was wearing like sky blue and Taylor was wearing like literally like Pepto-Bismol pink. And they didn't they didn't present IDs or

[32:53] >> they did and then they said um we do have a warrant. We're looking for some documents and that's when I was like okay well I don't have any documents anymore. They're going to search and I'm going to figure this out later. Mhm. >> Um, >> were you hoping at that point that you might be able that this might still all go away, that you'd might be able to satisfy their answers and just be like, I don't know anything about it >> and uh they don't they search the house, they don't find anything. Maybe they're

[33:23] like, >> right. Um, and it's one of those things that it's a legal technicality that I didn't pick up on the time, but one of the reasons why we went to court and we argued that I was not free to walk away is they had a warrant to search my physical person. >> And so until they executed the physical body search, no, I was not free to leave. And so the interrogation happened

[33:55] between the time they searched the house and the time they brought a female officer because they never sent the FBI did not send a single woman to my house. They sent 11 men and they needed a woman to put hands on me to search my body. But by that time, I had already confessed because of our completely air quotes consensual interview. >> Why didn't you just uh roll John Kuryaku

[34:26] style and say I am represented by council and I don't talk to cops? >> Well, I made them the same mistake that that reality made because up until that point, anytime the FBI ever asked me anything, I would say, "Hey, anything for the FBI? Anything I can do to be helpful? I'm a patriot, right? Just like reality. So, it never occurred to me when they started asking me questions and they tricked me, of course, just like they tricked her. Um, they said, "Hey, remember that case you helped us out with two years ago?" And there was

[34:57] this case. I said, "Sure." They said, "We need your help again." And I said, "Anything for the FBI." And then they >> famous last words. reality. I mean, surely it must have occurred to you that, you know, maybe I should shut up now. >> No, because they looked like all the guys in my office and I worked for the NSA. They're the FBI in and being a white woman from a middle

[35:29] class background where my mom worked with uniformed police officers as a child protective service investigator. For me also just like with the intercept kind of listening to them so much I don't or I didn't view the FBI as law enforcement. I viewed them as more of a government agency. And so I did was not in any way, shape, or form thinking about like, oh, I'm talking to cops. These are the same

[36:01] uniform cops that murder Freddy Gay in Baltimore. I wasn't. That wasn't my thing. >> Or the Black Panthers in Chicago, >> you know. And that was the thing, too, is I never had that education. I was just in that era of learning about um the prison industrial system, >> you know, six month if you had given me six months of going down that rabbit hole and learning about things in the country. Like I didn't even know about

[36:31] like Coen Intel Pearl. >> I didn't know any of that stuff. I didn't know. You could have asked me who Jay Edgar Hoover was and I would have thought he invented a vacuum cleaner because my whole life from the time I was 11 years old, all I cared about was Afghanistan, 9/11, and the Taliban and how to learn as many languages as possible. >> Really? Any Do you mind if I ask you how old you are? >> I am 33. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, you're so young to have

[37:01] gone through all this, just like Ed. Um, so all right. So obviously you talk to them. I've seen the I I mean I have seen I've seen the movie, but for those who haven't um they talked to you for hours, right? And then >> like an hour like two hours and then arrested you? >> Yes. >> Okay. So um at that point I mean are you thinking I need an attorney? I mean I'm

[37:31] in deep [ __ ] What are you thinking? >> So, this is where like the real trauma [ __ ] starts to happen because and I think John can kind of um give you a little bit more backup information because so remember how like Thomas Drake was arrested for like what was in his mind, right? It doesn't have to be a tangible physical piece of paper with a top secret label on it. Mhm.

[38:02] >> We had been told because I had actually worked for the NSA at the time of Snowden's leaks, at the time of Chelsea Manning, and we were not allowed to read news articles about them because those news articles, the way you introduced my case, somebody who has a current topsec clearance could not listen to this podcast if there's still classified information being played on their device, but they are now holding digital signatures of

[38:34] top secret information. >> Ridiculous. >> So, I didn't know what they had gone through and I didn't know if this was a process that an attorney could help with. >> All I had known is that when they first got Chelsea, she went and spent nine months in solitary confinement at Quantico. And so, Agent Garrick and Taylor did not say, "You are under arrest." They didn't read the Miranda rights that you see on Law and Order in CIS.

[39:06] >> I've never had my Miranda rights read to me. Never. >> Did they handcuff you? >> So, that's it was the weirdest arrest ever. And it's either that's just they were awkward about it or, you know, white privilege comes into play. But Agent Garrick said, "Yeah, we're going to have to take you in." Is how he told me I was under arrest. He said, "We're going to go in this vehicle." And he gestured to one of the black unmarked

[39:37] government vehicles. He said, "I will be sitting next to you the whole time." He said that we will cuff your hands in the front so you won't be uncomfortable. The only thing I want to apologize for is that it's going to be a bit of a drive. And that's when I thought, "Holy [ __ ] [ __ ] we're going to Quantico." >> And you had animals at home, right? >> Yes. So that was when I was like, I'm going to Quantico. I don't know how to

[40:08] tell my parents that. And that was when he gave me my cell phone back to call somebody to come get the dogs. So I didn't call my parents because they're not in Georgia. Um I called the lady at the animal rescue. Um cuz I had she's like the last person I had spoken to that week. Like I came home from BISE, she dropped my dog off and then I went to work for 3 days, went to the gym and got arrested. Like that's what had happened. So, I had just seen

[40:40] her. She knew where the house was. I just said, "Hey, Kathy, I need you to come get my dog and my cat. I don't know what's going on, but um I am in a bit of trouble and I just need you to come get my animals sometime tomorrow. Uh I can't even take care of my cat right now." She said, "Okay." And I said, "I can't I can't talk any longer. Like, this is it." So, she got off the phone. I got off the phone. I handed my phone back to Garrick and he's like, "Why do you think you're

[41:12] in trouble?" >> I was like I was like, "You just like bas I'm like I'm going to Quantico. Like what do you mean? Like you just told me >> I have handcuffs on. It's kind of it's kind of a tell, >> right? Like like I had just confessed to you. Like we all like why are you doing this?" So anyway, then he's like, well, don't you want to call your family? I was like, I thought I got one phone call and these two living creatures in my

[41:43] house are important. Like, duh. Like, I like the whole thing was like, look at this [ __ ] sociopathic [ __ ] All she cares about is her dog and her cat. She's not going to even tell her family is how I felt. You know what I mean? Like, >> once they brought that up, did you say yes, I would like to call my parents? Yeah. And so he's like, "Okay." And then again, oh, so they said we're going to have to take you in. They never said you are charged with this law. I wasn't arraigned yet. It wasn't even like that

[42:14] yet. It was just like at no point. Nobody said the word espionage. So I still didn't even know exactly uh the technicalities of what I had done wrong. Right. Like we just had we had an action and a result. I didn't know where I was going. Okay. So, I called my dad because, you know, I never tell my mom when I'm in trouble. I always tell my dad. And um I was just like, "Hey, like again, I was like, I'm in trouble. I don't know where I'm going, but the FBI

[42:47] is here and um I guess I'm going with them. Um I I don't have any information." Like, I didn't have any information. >> Mhm. Like I was like, I didn't even know these guys were cops. Like what do you think? Like it was so crazy. And then agent Garrick's just like just give me the phone. Give me the phone. And he grabs the phone and like my heart rate is so high at that time. Like he walks away from me and I don't hear what he's telling my dad.

[43:18] So basically he they already had me on the schedule to be arraigned that t that Monday or Tuesday. >> Ah let me interrupt you. They do that on purpose. They like to make their arrests on Thursdays >> because there are no arraignments on Fridays and so you have to spend Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night in in the local jail, which in DC is a very dangerous place and then they reign you on Monday after you've been beaten up a couple of times and softened up and are much more

[43:50] willing than you were on Thursday to take a plea. >> Yeah. So, you know, luckily I was arrested on a Saturday afternoon, >> right? >> Um, but yeah, so he was the one that How the [ __ ] would I have that information? Like, hey, meet me at the federal courthouse in Augusta, Georgia at 9:00 a.m. on Monday. You know what I mean? Like, that's what he told my dad apparently. I never heard that conversation. And then he takes my phone and then we had that very dangerous conversation about how to turn my phone

[44:20] on because I didn't know how. And I was like, "Well, you press the button on the side and you like you swipe up." And they were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't do that." And I was like, "But that's how you unlock it." And they were like, "Well, what's the passcode?" And I'm like, "I don't lock my phone." Like online and mobile banking was like just invented. >> Uhhuh. >> Like even if it was, like I wouldn't have a lock on my phone. I never had a lock on my phone. Um, so they were just

[44:50] like, "Wow, why would you have a lock in your phone?" I was like, "Can you'all just stop [ __ ] with me." So then that was when these stupid idiots realized that they had to search me um before in order to, you know, satisfy the warrant and none of them could touch me. So they called somebody from the Richmond County Sheriff's Office. A woman showed up. She went and patted me down. There wasn't much. I was not wearing much that day. And then she comes back out and then pulls Garrick and Taylor aside and she's

[45:22] talking to them and I don't know what happened. Maybe that I mean she could have hated me for all I know. But after that conversation all plans changed and another sheriff's vehicle came and another woman came out and then that's when um Garrick said, "Hey, you're going to go with her." >> And you're in Richmond, Virginia at this point. Um I'm still in Augusta, Georgia, but we're in Richmond County. >> Gotcha. Okay. Right. >> Yeah. So that's the county that I was technically in.

[45:52] >> Okay. >> And so she came up to me and she's like, "Hey, like I guess I'm arresting you. Um why don't you come with me to the vehicle?" We walk to the vehicle. She opens the door and she's like, "Sorry, it's policy. I've got to have you in cuffs." So then she cuffs me behind my back and then I get into the vehicle and then she closed the door and then that was the first time like as she drove away from those FBI agents that was the first time I realized that

[46:24] I had just survived my own arrest. Yeah. So I guess this brings up the point the always important point that when you're dealing with the cops u to ask them am I under arrest? Am I free to go? Am I being detained? Uh, and just keep insisting on that. Okay. So, they took you to the lockup. >> Yeah, they took me to um the Lincoln County Jail. So, it wasn't the one directly by the courthouse. Um, I guess

[46:55] that county jail did have a federal contract. It was very small. It was very secluded. And I think that's kind of why they chose it. Um they booked me in and then they took me back to uh the woman's cell block was one cell and it used to be the disciplinary one for the men. So it was smaller, not quite as nice. They only had one place for the women to be. So if the women didn't get along, it was just playing like rotating chairs with the one

[47:27] isolation cell >> which was literally across the hall from us. So, like when women didn't get along, they were still arguing across the hallway. Um, or if somebody did get put over there for a fight and everybody was supporting the person that got pulled out, like we would just sit at the door and talk to them all day anyway. Like, nobody was ever truly like in isolation or completely alone.

[47:57] So you are I mean you know I'm like okay so where does an attorney enter the picture? >> My attorney showed up five minutes late to my arraignment. Um, I was downstairs in the holding cell and then they put me in a very small like the room where you get to talk to your attorney through like the great for the first time and >> court ordered attorney >> courtappointed attorney Titus. He said, "Hey, they told me 30 minutes ago that

[48:29] I'm on this case. I don't know what you're being charged with. I'm so sorry." He's like, "We are going to plead guilty and we're gonna I mean, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." He's like, "We're going to plead not guilty." >> Okay. >> Not guilty and then we'll have a conversation about this. >> He's like, "I have no idea what's going on. They just told me." >> Um, and then I said, "I don't care. Like, how do I get out on bond?" >> Like, everybody gets out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, when do I get out? >> I got out on my own recgnizance. So did

[49:01] Jeffrey Sterling. >> Yes. But I'm a terrorist. Come on. >> Apparently, >> obviously. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just look at >> dangerous to society needs to be protected from you. >> Pull that. They're going to pull that out of context. It's going to be saying, "I'm a terrorist. I'm a terrorist over and over again." Um, >> don't be afraid of sarcasm. It's a humorous best friend. Anyway, >> yeah. So, and he was certain of that, too. He was like, "Okay, well, they will decide when we get there." He's like, "I'm not going to make this girl any promises,

[49:31] obviously. Um he's like, "But we will talk about that in the courtroom." He's like, "But just today you're going to say your name and you're not going to say anything else. That's how we're going to do today until I figure out what's going on." Um obviously that hearing didn't go well. They said, "Oh, well, we're not going to have a bond hearing until Thursday." Um I didn't obviously I couldn't talk to my family. Um, and then that was when Titus saw like what they were charging

[50:02] me with. And um, I pled not guilty. And then was it No, it was at the hearing on Thursday that they took away my courtappointed attorneys because they figured I could afford my own attorneys. Can I jump ahead just a little bit? >> Um, your mom posted something on Facebook

[50:34] um, just before your book came out, reality, and she said that your conviction precluded you from making money from the book. >> I found that to be outrageous. I've made a living from my conviction. Uh, I've written what, eight books and at least three of them have something to do with my conviction. Why was that restriction placed on you? It seems it

[51:06] seems like a violation of your constitutional rights. Patently unfair. Um, it hasn't been placed on the rest of us. Why you? >> I'm gonna I'm >> gonna say something that is just so funny, but it's because I'm a star obviously. >> Yeah. >> Yes. And that's it. >> Or you're like son of Sam. There's the son of Sam law, right? That >> that is I was going to get to that. um because

[51:39] they realized very early on in the case that instead of the document and national security, this case quickly became about who I am as a person. >> Y >> and that I was actually getting a lot more public support than they wanted. >> Yes. Um, their last ditch effort to embarrass me was to publish almost in full in the court record that conversation with the FBI. >> Within two months, it was turned into a Broadway play.

[52:09] >> Yes. >> Um, and so they're like, we tried to embarrass her and now it's on Broadway or off Broadway. >> Um, >> that's jiu-jitsu. >> Exactly. like they were every time they tried to humiliate me, we turned around and were like, "Actually, that's why I'm likable." Um, and so by the time of the conviction, they had added in there that no part from the moment I joined the Air Force really all the way through my time at the NSA through the conviction and even

[52:42] postconviction in prison. nothing associated with my clearance or my charge for me, for my associates, my acquaintances, for my current and they put in there current and future family members. Like it's like they knew my sister was pregnant with the child at that time and they were like that niece will not get anything. Like it was so petty and because they knew that these movies

[53:14] were coming out. They knew that people were more interested in who I was as a person >> than the felony, the conduct that resulted in a felony. >> Let's talk about that reality. I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm I never understood that the following aspect. John, I totally understand why they [ __ ] canned him. He exposed the fact that the US government was torturing people. In your case, you exposed the accusation, the allegation that Russia was spying on our elections.

[53:45] >> Um, why who why does anyone in the US government want to defend Russia or care what Russia is or is not doing? I mean, you didn't embarrass them, so why are they so upset? >> They have this really cool dance thing. Um, but but I did want to follow up on that. They also knew that the only other people who are prohibited from making money off of their conviction are serial killers,

[54:16] >> right? >> So, it was kind of like we double dog dare you to use legal precedents involving serial killers >> to justify making money off your story, right? Uh, so that was kind of like that was a further slap in the face like you know we dare you to use the same law that men who have murdered and raped women and are now popular in prison um to justify making money which is why

[54:47] we have never even considered appealing it. Like that would be so repulsive to me. Um, so I mean for me I'm just like my last laugh on that is I'm not making any money but I'm not seeing a single movie where Garrick and the lead prosecutor Jenna or even the judge I'm not seeing a single movie that makes them look like good people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You don't have to >> aren't stupid. >> I Let me ask you a followup about that

[55:18] too. I um I've had a strange thing happen to me now that my case is, you know, more than a decade in the past. Um three of the FBI agents that were involved in my arrest have reached out to me, one recently uh to apologize and two of them called my attorneys to apologize. one reached out to me directly, got my email address somehow, and said that he was sorry that he arrested me, that he's lost sleep over

[55:50] it over the last uh the last 13 years. And that he wanted me to know that um the orders to go after me came from the very top and that at the working level, they were simply following orders. Mhm. >> I always believed that that was the case and it was nice to hear the apology. It doesn't change anything, of course, but your case seems to be so much more clearcut than mine. Out of all the

[56:20] whistleblowers, and forgive me, but I consider you a major whistleblower. Out of all the whistleblowers, you're the one that violated the law the least in terms of the amount of of information that was that was revealed. It seems to me that these FBI agents, whether they were friendly or not, should have run to their computers to apologize to you. Has that happened? Have you heard from any of these people that were involved in your case?

[56:51] >> No. Well, one, I I'll talk about that at the very end. Um, they have not. Um, what I do know is that I have the satisfaction of knowing that un everybody wanted my case cuz it was like the first really scandalous like leak or whatever that they could prosecute under Trump. >> Yes. >> Everybody wanted this to be their career stepping stone. And then obviously the

[57:21] day I was convicted, Trump was like, "This is stupid. This is small potatoes. Like this is not a victory. Mhm. >> And in hindsight, what I was hearing once I had gotten out of prison and I was actually listening to Joe Rogan, he had some guy talking about it, his like CIA guy, but he basically said >> Mike Baker. >> Yeah, I think it was Mike Baker. >> He said during the Trump administration, there were little to no FBI and CIA

[57:52] promotions. like he like basically like kneecapped both of those agencies in that first term. And so I was like, "Okay, well good. Nobody got a promotion because of me." I know that the lead prosecutor, the mastermind behind my case, Julia Adelstein, was fired earlier this year because of her connections with the Marago case. And I know that Jenna's making a lot of money doing corporate law, but she's not like the hot shot

[58:24] national security prosecutor anymore. So, it seems like none of them are doing anything relevant anymore, you know? >> I found that to be the case in situations. Well, yeah. >> Yeah. Like, y'all aren't doing anything and I've got a memoir. >> Have you gotten any apologies from The Intercept or from Glenn Greenwald? >> Good question. I don't think Glenn likes me or takes me seriously. U >> doesn't like anybody. >> I the apology did come from the um the

[58:57] contribution to my legal team. Like finding the legal team, finding a group of Republicans that would defend me in court was very important. Um paying millions of dollars for it. Um Jim Ryson um personally came to see me at one point. Um and I do know that because of her convictions, Laura Press resigned because she was the only one willing to say that I got screwed over.

[59:28] >> Did you ever consider suing the Intercept? No, because I've always I have always just taken accountability for the fact that regardless of what they did, I broke the law. And I can't be like in court saying like, "You didn't help me break the law more effectively." You know, that would be like, you know, suing your partner in a bank robbery because they didn't grab enough cash on the way out.

[1:00:01] respect reality. >> I don't know. Personally, I I would I want to sue on your behalf. >> I know, right? >> Wow. Okay. So, now let's get to if I can, if I may. Um, you know, I do want to know the, you know, sort of why do you think why you, you know, um why do you think you were the person who said, "Okay, no one else is going to release this. Uh, I I want the country to know and have this discussion

[1:00:32] and I'm not just gonna wait for someone else to do it. I'm just going to do I I'm dropping this sucker in the mail. >> I don't know if it's really because of like personal aspirations or hero complex. I think it and I don't play like being in a dark place like I don't blame that >> but I didn't have a family. Um I had this vague dream of going to Afghanistan

[1:01:04] and building a resume so I could work for a humanitarian aid organization down the line. But nothing in my future um was really like materializing. I did not feel like I had a bright future ahead. In my current life, I had a foster dog that hated everybody and a cat. Um, like I had just lost my father. I

[1:01:36] couldn't stand being home. And so like I really didn't have anything to hold on to. So when it was like, "Oh, you sacrificed everything." It was like I sacrificed the possibility of a career doing what I dreamed of doing, but even that wasn't tangible at the time. >> You know, >> so you did you feel like you didn't have much to lose? >> Exactly. I I didn't have anything to lose. >> And I thought that

[1:02:08] I kind of thought if the information got out first and everybody was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so important. Whoever gave this to us really did something great for the country. When they did catch me, it would, this is so dumb, but like my favorite movie growing up was Mulan, the cartoon one. And so at the very end, she's standing in front of the emperor. This is like such an Ed Snowden moment. Like I hope he hears this because he always talks about like Zelda and movies and stuff like that, but the emperor

[1:02:39] standing in front of her and he's like, "You disgraced your family. you illegally entered the army. You um you foiled this plan. You blew up the emperor's palace. You know, you did this, you did this, you did this. And he's like, "And you have saved us all." And that's what I want. I wanted my little Mulan moment. >> What would you do different? Would you do anything differently now? I have to assume so. If you had to if I could pop you, knowing what you know now, I pop

[1:03:09] you right back in front of that post office, that mailbox. >> Um, are you doing any are what would you change? >> Yeah. So, I'm not printing that document out. I'm quitting my job and going to Afghanistan and doing like a a Dan Terry moment. Um, if I'm going to lose everything, I'm going to lose it the way he lost it. or I'm taking that document, driving to Washington DC, and putting it in Bernie Sanders hands.

[1:03:40] >> Like, there's only two options. Don't do it or go to prison for giving a document to Bernie Sanders. >> What would you say to anyone who's thinking about leaking to the Intercept? >> Absolutely do not leak to the Intercept. Um there are more effective uh journalists. I don't know like the Washington Post is [ __ ] now. >> It is um a right-wing rag. True.

[1:04:11] >> New York Times is garbage because >> Ed Snowden called New York Times and left messages and they never called him back. >> Exactly. It's going to have to be something done like independently. like you are going to have to find a way to get that information out there independently and do it from a safe place or accept that your life is about to get very hard. And that's kind of like one of the things where it's like I'm not telling anybody to break the law, but I'm also telling people like me, like white

[1:04:43] people, you're not going to El Salvador. You're not getting sent to Sudan like at this point in time. But if you do not start coming forward and you do not stop putting your head down and following orders, we are going to get to that point, right? Like you need to start coming out. I think the entire NSA needs to come out starting with the director. I think that these agencies need to start standing up for something unless they've always wanted

[1:05:16] to be the ministry of war, the ministry of peace and truth or whatever. Like if that was their goal all along, then all hope is lost. But, you know, especially even like our active duty or National Guard, our service members in uniform in DC right now, like I hate using Hollywood and pop culture as a reference, but like everybody looks back and admires the conscientious objectors, >> admires the people who are willing to

[1:05:47] sit in the brig rather than go kill children abroad or march against their own people in the streets of BC. >> Well, reality, I'm twice your age and exactly and I remember the Vietnam War and people really did not respect or treat the conscientious objectors well. They were treat they were treated and insulted as cowards and uh made fun of and ridiculed, but they were heroes. >> Now they're heroes. But like and that's the thing too is people need to

[1:06:18] understand like people will remember in time and you have to understand that history is a process you know and it's just like also like just do the right [ __ ] thing. How can you put on a uniform knowing that you are being sent to march against the people of the United States of America? Like if you wanted to be a bully cop, you should have gone and been a cop. You're not. You're a soldier in the United States military. How dare you accept those orders?

[1:06:48] >> You're here. Um, can you do you um can we can you talk a little bit well talk as much as you want about the um about the uh your prison experience? U I mean I what I read was really interesting. >> Yeah. Um county jail was really hard. I mean it they make it hell for a reason. Um, yes, the kitty. Oh, I love the kitty. Um, County Joe was

[1:07:20] the lowest point of my life and then the transport process was even lower. Um, >> you know, never say rock bottom because rocks, >> huh? >> Did they force you to go through Oklahoma City? >> Yes. And I didn't even get the privilege of going to that transport center. I went to the overflow Grady County Jail. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. It was a filthy warehouse full of meth addicts and neo-Nazis. >> Yeah. >> Um >> awful.

[1:07:50] >> So, how long So, so you how many how many years was was it? >> It was exactly four years to the date and 15 months of it was in county jails before I had the privilege of going to federal prison. When I showed up at Carwell, I feel like I made it into Harvard. >> Yeah, I bet. >> The campus was beautiful. Like I called it a campus. It wasn't a compound. Um I just remember so many of us had been in county jails for so long. The housing unit was just one big room with cells

[1:08:23] lining the walls and then like we had a common bathroom at the end. And our ability to process like our sensory capacities had been so limited by that time by just living in one room for a year that like there was so many of us looking around like wow we're going to get lost in here every day and it's one room. Um, I mean just I remember getting lost on the compound and just like once I got my MP3 player, once

[1:08:55] I was able to run and exercise, you know, life was petty, life was hard, um, but I was going to be just fine until co >> Yeah. >> So, what happened? So, CO hits late February 2020. Um, I remember it really well. Uh we all do. So um what so you went into lockdown? >> Yes. So we were a little bit uh behind the curve just because they were actually doing like some common sense

[1:09:27] stuff like okay so like we're on a compound. None of y'all should spontaneously catch COVID. >> New people coming in. We're going to quarantine them for a couple weeks just to see. But y'all should be fine. um they started decreasing like the capacity of like the chapel and indoor spaces like y'all just can't gather like more than 30 people >> and then I had taught my last spin class on like March 14th

[1:09:59] and then on March 15th and 16th there were all these rumors and we had been in lockdown by the 17th. um you can't go outside anymore. And we thought it would just last a couple days and then it was a week and then it was two weeks and they were like, "Yeah, y'all aren't going outside." And then it was, "Y'all are only going outside as long as it takes to search the unit for drugs and to sanitize everything."

[1:10:32] So, like once a week at an unspecified time, like a fire drill, we would be ushered out and then they would go in and allegedly sanitize and look for drugs. >> Oh, for heaven's sake. >> Um, so it was like it was great if I was ready for it. Like everybody was like, "Winner, I think they're coming. I think they're coming." I'd grab my MP3 player, put my running shoes on, and go run for an hour while they did that. Um, but because it was so like sporadic and

[1:11:02] then they started like, "Okay, you guys get to go out an hour for exercise once a week." Um, things were just like it was just so bad. And then they put us on lockdown for George Floyd. >> Oh. >> And that was they just they came in like five officers deep and said, "Get in your cells." Like like literally like screaming at us. They were pointing tear gas guns at us. And like I said, our prison was unique. We didn't have

[1:11:32] toilets in our cells. We didn't have doors in our cells. We had a common bathroom at the end, which means in order for them to facilitate a lockdown, they had to have 24-hour manned positions to take bathroom requests. >> Yeah. Their their parents must have been so proud. >> Yeah. Every single day. They hated it. you and you know obviously like there were a lot of male officers so as women >> asking to go and it's like I had a

[1:12:03] miscarriage in my early 20s I have a lot of scar tissue in my abdomen you know what I mean I've got like an hour bladder on a good day like there's so many women there that also they had C-sections they had mult five six seven children like when it comes to female bodies in particular when you start talking about limiting their access to restroom facilities and to hygiene facilities. That's a human rights issue, you know, and that's something that our federal everything in federal prison is

[1:12:33] dictated by what the men's compounds needs >> because those are 85% of the inmates because those are the biggest security concerns. So, when it comes to the women's compounds, they're like, "Well, that's not policy. You don't have to have access to a toilet every hour." And we're like, "But we need it." Like when I'm telling you that women were going they were urinating in their trash cans and threatening to throw it out into the common area if they weren't allowed to

[1:13:04] go to the bathroom. >> Reasonable >> um things like that. I mean that's what we went through for a week and we didn't know why. >> Nobody told us why we were being treated that way. >> Were a lot of your fellow prisoners uh black? Is that why they were worried about George Floyd? It wasn't it had nothing to do with the prisons. It was that the the marches for justice on the streets were so were ramping up to the point to where the federal government decided to take the

[1:13:35] riot task forces out of the federal prisons to patrol the streets. that we went into critically low um status across the board in federal prisons which dictated a federal lockdown. It had nothing to do with our conduct or our expected >> So it's just their paranoia. >> Yeah. For nothing. And that was when I started using drugs for the first time because I couldn't I couldn't handle the injustice

[1:14:05] that we were the ones being punished because a cop committed a murder in front of the world. That was that's when I lost my mind. >> These drugs are smuggled in by the guards, I assume. >> Nope. They were sent in. So, you uh spray synthetic um synthetic THC on a piece of paper, like a letter, and then you send it in, and then they cut it up into pieces based on how much they want to charge for the piece,

[1:14:36] >> and you just put it under your tongue, and you just trip for a while. >> Oh, sort of like the way acid used to be. >> Exactly. It was like that. Um, somebody gave meth once and I told her like, "Not only am I not going to pay for this crap, but um, you're lucky I'm not going to hit you in the face cuz it was so bad. Meth was awful. Don't do it." >> So, were you addicted by the time you uh your your term you were released?

[1:15:08] >> No. Um, I was just like emotionally dependent on it. >> And the scary part was just like when I learned how to balance the use of it with continuing to work out cuz if I can like that was the whole thing. I was like, I'm not going to use this until I can work out again. Then I'm going to work out and then I started using it occasionally. And it wasn't like such a severe addiction. It was just like then all my f everybody around me started getting busted for it.

[1:15:38] and then I still wanted to buy it. So that was like the thing. It was like the I was starting to just not even care about the risks anymore. That was probably like the most concerning part. >> And so obviously you're not on it now. What happened? >> Um supply and demand like they really cracked down. It wasn't available anymore. Um, I hate like this is so stupid, but my girlfriend really didn't want me to use it. And then I found out like I was just

[1:16:10] using to piss her off. Like I didn't need anymore. I was just getting high to make her mad. Um, luckily this is not a substance that causes withdrawal or cravings. It's just literally like I like how this feels. I'm going to do it. So those are kind of like some of those things are a little bit easier habits to break, but also all the drug dealers got popped at that point in time. So it just wasn't available. Like I I got really lucky.

[1:16:41] And you're you're if one of the longest, if not the long the you had the longest or one of the longest whistleblower sentences in US history. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think for any one count, yes. I'm not really sure about the Jack Tosher case. I don't know if he's gonna beat me or not. >> Yeah, but he wasn't a whistleblower. >> No, >> he wasn't. And he had multiple like he had like hundreds of documents. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> He was trying to impress his friends. >> He was a braggard. >> Yeah. >> Um

[1:17:11] uh Okay. So ultimately, um you did your four years, you're you're out. You can't make money from writing books. You can write books, but you can't make money from >> I write books. Yeah, you could write as many as you want. Uh I mean I won't make any jokes about how, you know, writing isn't paying any anyone anymore anyway. Um but uh so okay, so what's your life been like since then? >> Um at this moment in time, I'm coaching CrossFit. It's just a massive privilege

[1:17:43] to get to coach my favorite sport. Um I would be competing, but I'm on book tour this fall, so kind of taking the fall off. I also tore my rotator cuff, so that's kind of been what I've been dealing with. >> And right now, I am in a bachelor's program for veterinary technology. >> Good for you. >> And I'm using my VA benefits for that. So, I still have some benefits. Um, and I rescue dogs. So, like right now, we have eight dogs. Um, >> wow. >> I'm busy from, you know, 6:00 a.m. to 10

[1:18:15] o'clock at night. I'm If I'm not podcasting, I'm in school coaching or chasing dogs. Great >> reality. Thank you so much for joining us here. It's uh honestly uh been really great. >> Thank you so much. This was fun. >> Very best of luck with all of it. >> Yes, you too. >> Thanks everyone for watching us here on Drogram with Ted Roll and John Kuryaku. We're here Monday through Friday at 5:00 p. p.m. Eastern time. Although uh this

[1:18:47] is going to air, we recorded this uh ahead of time last week. This is gonna air on Tuesday. Um I think October maybe maybe it's not quite October. >> September 30th. >> September 30th. Right. Yeah. And so this is gonna air September 30th. Um so it's not live but so this particular starting tomorrow will be on at 9:00 am Eastern time. Please like, follow, and share the show. Reality winner NSA whistleblower. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks guys. and buy the book.

[1:19:17] >> Yeah. >> I am not your enemy. >> All right. If and I will hit This
