Title: John Kiriakou Answers the Questions Everyone Wants to Ask
Show: The Jason Jones Show
Date: 2026-07-06
URL: https://youtu.be/CmH5nEr0MkI
Duration: 1:15:00

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[00:05] Aloha everybody and welcome to the Jason Jones show. I am your host Jason Jones broadcasting from the beautiful hill country of Texas and there is no place on earth more fun than the hill country of Texas in the summer and I'm taking a little summer break, a little summer vacation. What does that mean? I mean I'm still working at least eight hours a day. Uh, it just means I'm not going to shave and I'm wearing a hat that says summer fun. And this week, instead of recording a show, we're going to do

[00:35] something very special for you. A couple of weeks ago, I interviewed the great John Keryaku, CIA officer, whistleblower, went to prison because of his integrity, and uh it was a privilege to interview him. And if you haven't listened to that show, listen to that show first. Um, but today at the end of the show, we did Q&A. The audience was mostly Gen Z. And I worked very hard to come up with brilliant, thought-provoking questions that nobody

[01:07] ever asked. Thought I did a good job. And then these young people got to the mic and they began to ask questions. And I'm like, "Wow, those questions are so much better than my questions." And that's what you're going to get to see today. This is the Q&A. It's over an hour long of young people asking John Keryaku questions. Now, we're going to talk about aliens. We're going to talk about the Kennedy assassination. It's going to be wide ranging. And if you don't know this about John, um, in early February, he went viral. And, and in

[07:50] >> Oh, it's real. >> It's real. Oh, listen to how bad it is. Ronda Santis, the governor of uh Florida, pushed legislation through the Florida legislature this year making it a criminal offense to criticize Israel. Patently unconstitutional. Like, there's no there's not even room for debate. It's unconstitutional. And so while I happen to be in Miami, a woman in Miami Beach posted on Facebook,

[08:22] "Free Palestine." And next thing you know, Miami uh beach police, "Did you put this on Facebook?" She said, "Yes, arrest me." >> Yeah. >> That's US policy, by the way. Two-state solution is our official position. She's just stating our position as a country. >> Our position. You're exactly right. So, not only did Ronda Santis push this through the Florida legislature, he actually didn't sign it as soon as it

[08:52] was passed. Instead, he took it. He flew to Israel. He signed it in the presence of Benjamin Netanyahu and gave him the pen as a souvenir. So, does he work for the people of Florida or does he work for Benjamin Netanyahu? >> That's scary. >> Can you imagine? >> Yeah. So the things we're seeing are true. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. I have a friend, you know, there are 30 there are 32 states in the country that have anti-BDS

[09:22] legislation. Uh boycott, devest, and sanction. So I have a friend who uh got hired to give a speech at Georgia State University. No big deal. And she goes, they send her they send her in advance the the contract. you know, we're going to give you $500 to do the speech and you have to pledge allegiance to Israel. She's like, what the what are you talking about? I have to pledge allegiance to I'm not going to pledge allegiance to Israel. I don't have allegiance to Israel. Well, you can't

[09:53] you can't be a contractor in the state of Georgia and giving the speech and taking state money would make her a contractor unless you pledge feelalty to Israel. And she said no. And they canled her speech. So she sued and she lost. She lost in the Supreme Court of Georgia. >> That's not good at all. I just learned this week that in addition to the billions of dollars that we give to Israel in American taxpayers money, the

[10:23] states all give money to Israel as well. It's a line item in in the budgets of all 50 states. Didn't Trump also tell them all that they need to continue giving them money and if they don't, he's not going to support their state? >> That's exactly right. And he threatened to cut off highway funds, >> John. It's worse. Even cities and counties. >> This is insane. >> San Marcos, they found out in Texas, was sending millions of dollars, this county, to Israel. >> It's not believed. This is insane. >> It can't be legal. But I think nobody's

[10:54] challenged it. >> Yeah. And if you do challenge it, of course, you're a notorious anti-semite. So that's all. There you go. >> Uh, hi Jason. Hi John. Thank you for the podcast. It was it was great. Um, this is kind of a selfish selfish question. So my name is Victor. I'm Ukrainian Catholic. And so we use the Byzantine right as well. And I was wondering if you ever think the divine liturgy is going to be celebrated in Hagio Sophia like ever again. Ah,

[11:26] >> you should have been here yesterday. I was wearing a t-shirt that said free Constantinople. >> Uhhuh. I found it on eBay. I wear it all the time just to provoke people. Uh what a what a wonderful question. Well, it's been almost 600 years. Call me a fool, but I think that someday Yes. Someday it's going to happen. Yes. I have to believe that it's going to happen.

[11:56] Yeah. I I mean to believe otherwise would almost it would feel like a denial of my faith, you know. In 1453, what was it? May 29th, 1453. May. Yeah, I think it was the 29th, 1453 in the midst of divine liturgy in the Sophia Cathedral. Um, Ottoman forces finally broke through the door. They killed the uh the emperor and um

[12:31] and the the legend is that the the priest vanished. He just disappeared into the air. and that when Constantinople is liberated and Ayas Sophia is free, the priest will reappear and complete the divine liturgy. I I want to believe that that's exactly what's going to happen. >> Yeah. Someday. >> I just want to add a Slava Ukrainian and I love Ukraine. I spent a lot of time there, but I had the privilege of being on the TV. It's it's the Game of Thrones of Turkey. It's on the conquest from the Turkish point of view of Constantinople.

[13:02] But I asked the director if I could address the Christian soldiers. This was two years ago. I was on set in Turkey, so I I asked them to ignore the script and win this time. But unfortunately, they they they stuck to the script. But it was a real privilege to kind of witness the reenactment of those battles. >> Thank you. >> Hi Jason. Hi John. Um thank you so much for for the podcast and thank you for your courage in speaking up about this consistently. I think that uh you know this as someone who's uh been very

[13:33] passionate about about this about Israeli influence in the United States politics for quite some time uh it's it's really encouraging to see the the increasing uh awareness that the American people and especially the American right is coming to about this about this issue and I think that voices like yours are critical in achieving that and so my my question is this a couple times uh you referred to a kind of coming political reckoning and that's definitely something that that I've witnessed just in the kids that I've taught right and and uh you know the guys that I know right uh in my current job at the Wisconsin State Legislature

[14:03] or you know my incoming class in law school um and as that as we kind of anticipate that reckoning and we're in the midst of that what do you think in practical terms uh like political organizing and and getting on the ground and actually affecting that change affecting that reckoning looks like in the kind of short and middle term that is one of the toughest questions that I Yet, you know, [snorts] my my canned answer used to always be our elected officials work for us. We

[14:35] have to ride them. We have to write to them and email and call and march and, you know, speak and and that's all fine and good, but it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I think the only alternative is we have to take it to the streets. We're not there yet. It's not 1968 yet, but I think we're gonna get there because we're approaching this tipping point. You know, you look at the polls, the most recent polls where where 80% of

[15:05] Gen Zers support Palestinian human rights, 80%. And now 50% of all Republicans. Oh, these are numbers that we've never seen before. I think we're right on the on the cusp of of a major change. We're not sure yet what it's going to look like, but but we're coming to something big. And I think what it will look like is that we're going to end up in the streets. I really believe it. >> And could I add something? I'd say and

[15:36] flood the institutions. They're they're so horrified at Gen Z flooding institutions. There have been countless news stories about the dangerous impact of the Gen Z and I would and I'd follow up with saying I have no clue. You guys have a dragon to fight and from my perspective I don't know how you fight the dragon of technological change. But but but from where I am sitting, someone who runs an organization for almost 25 years serving vulnerable communities facing ethnic cleansing and genocide and war, it's very important and it I'm so

[16:08] excited to see that the return of Gen Z to the Catholic Church. For the first time in American history, there are more Catholics under 18 than Protestants. Um a former intern of mine called me and asked me uh if I would be her sponsor. She's entering the Catholic church. She's in medical school at Liberty. And I said, 'How are your classmates taking? And she said, 'About 50% of my friends at Liberty are discerning becoming whether to become Catholic or Orthodox. So I would say ground your your your political activism in your

[16:39] faith in the Christian understanding of the human person. And what is our vocation? It's to love God and love for his sake and to love our neighbor for the sake of God. your the real gener challenge to your generation is do not be swept away by enthusiasms of hatred and bigotry not to Muslims not to Jews. We are one people. We are one country. [clears throat] We have foreign governments fermenting anti-Islamic hate in this country. This is repulsive.

[17:09] Fermenting Jew hatred is repulsive. St. Maximillian Kobe and you can order the complete translated uh collection of his writings on Kindle right now. To get the bound books, it's like $2,000, but on Kindle you can get it for 60 bucks. He wrote a lot about Zionism and Zionism's impact on Europe in the 20s and 30s. He wrote prolifically on this, but he always grounded his response in love, and conversion and charity. And so that's would be my warning to your generation. You are a grieved. you have

[17:40] been brutalized and abandoned. But it's I don't blame us. No one is prepared. We weren't prepared for the apps. We weren't, you know, our my pornography was the Sears catalog, >> right? The underwear section, three pages, >> right? That was it. And maybe someone found a Playboy in their their uncle's garage, you know, and then how that was like the whole neighborhood was riding their Huffy bikes to that house. Your generation has been brutalized. Your moral imagination has been brutalized.

[18:10] Um, your dreams appear to be erased, but they're not. It's But see, like, like you said, grab that bull by the horns. GK Chesterton said, "A dragon is no longer scary when you look it in the eyes." And so, there's the dragons lurking. Just look them in the eyes. Be grounded in your faith. Treat people with respect and dignity. As a man, never say something that would scare a child. Never about their ethnicity. never about their religion, never about their race. Um, it's not campy or cute. It's it's goes against

[18:42] our faith. And so that would be the warning I would give to your generation. But I'm also extremely hopeful. Like I say, your generation gives me hope because you love Theo, Tim Dylan, and John Keryaku. Three totally different guys that are beautiful. And that's your generation adors. And so that's what gives me hope. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Thank Thank you so much. And I and I I really appreciate that that fighting the dragon um analogy and I really think that the first dragon to be fought is the dragon of of disillusionment, right? And I think so just voices that are hopeful and

[19:13] encouraging are just so important right now. And so again, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for doing this. Thanks for speaking to us. >> Um real quick, you've been well traveled and in, you know, the midst of military conflicts. Did you ever see any mysterious craft? Uh, since UFOs are pretty relevant right now. >> Craft? >> Yeah. >> Like like craft? >> UAPs. >> Well, uh, >> oh,

[19:47] >> well, no, listen. When I was when I was a senior in high school, my mom and dad bought a restaurant in the neighboring town. I don't know what it is about Greeks and diners. It's just this thing. My dad didn't know anything about the restaurant business. And all of his life, he wanted a restaurant. So, he and my mom buy this diner in Sharon, Pennsylvania. And my dad and I always worked the midnight shift together on Fridays and Saturday nights, 11 to 7. So, we would leave home at 10:00. It was

[20:17] only 20-minute drive, but we lived in Amish country. And so, it's very, very dark, right? So we we get on State Route 60 going through Amish country one Friday night 10:15 and we see this brilliant flash of white light like blinding white light and it's about I don't know 12 or 1500 feet off the ground and we both look up in the sky and there's a second flash and then a third flash. I mean it's like the sun.

[20:48] It's so blinding. And then this orange saucer just lights up and it's just hovering there. And I said, "What in the world is that?" My dad pulls the car over. We get out of the car. We're standing there staring at this thing. It's not making any sound at all. A guy pulls up behind us. He gets out of his car. He says, "What is that?" And my dad says, "I don't know." And then it just goes at this fantastic speed that defies the

[21:21] laws of physics. So, we're standing there like, is it going to come back or what just happened? Finally, I don't know, maybe a minute passes. We get back in the car. We start driving to the restaurant [cough] and cuz I was just a kid, I said to my dad, "So, should we like call somebody? Should we call the cops or something?" And he says, "And say what? We saw a flying saucer and it flew away.

[21:54] The only person we told was my mom. Okay. A year and a half later, I get to college. I have a cousin who had been an F-15 pilot. And I always looked up to this cousin. He was like 10 years older than I, more than 10, 15 years older than I. And I don't know how we got onto the subject, but I I said to him, you know, I saw the craziest thing a year and a half ago. my dad and I and I told him a story. He says, "We used to see those things all the time." He said, "There are hundreds of them off the coast of

[22:26] Norfol, Virginia." He said, "Every pilot every pilot in Norfol saw something." And I said, "What what' you do?" He said, "We fill out a classified form. We send it to the Pentagon and nobody ever said anything again." He said, "Sometimes we would see them come up out of the ocean." He said, 'We don't know what they are, but everybody has seen them. So, I don't know what the heck it was. I saw something that night and it was glowing bright orange and it was in the shape of

[22:56] a saucer and then it flew away at a speed that I can't even describe to you. I don't know what it was. Can I ask a follow-up on that? So, this is the week of Steven Spielberg. Is this this week? Stephen Spielberg's dis disclosure, by the way, looks like an amazing movie, but it looks more like Possession. It reminds me actually of of um Invasion of the Body Snatchers because those were >> another great movie, >> right? Those were aliens, but they kind of came into our bodies. >> And it kind of seems that's what from the trailer, disclosure day, it kind of

[23:26] looks like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. >> So, and so everyone's talking about are we being prepared for disclosure? 2027 is the year of disclosure, >> right? or or what they called in uh True Blood Revelation sounds to me like I it's out of the out of the book of revelations. But >> would it be CIA that's responsible for protecting these secrets or would it be another government agency? >> No. >> My very first day at the CIA, my new boss took me to lunch and I said, "I got to ask you." I said, "Where are the

[23:57] aliens?" And he laughed and he said, "That is the first question that every one of us asks when we get here." He said, "We don't have anything to do with that stuff. All of it's at the Pentagon." >> I want the next time I see Tulsi, I want to be like, I just want to go aliens and then see the look on her face. But she wouldn't know is what you're saying. Or would she? OD and I know >> probably not. >> I mean, listen, Tulsi, you know my feelings about Tulsi. I think she was awesome. >> Is awesome. But um really the DNI

[24:28] >> um just manages the intelligence community's budget. >> And they were probably blocking her at every turn. They'd cut her out. >> Yeah, they fought her from the very beginning. They were worried about her. >> So, I'm not going to get any she would actually try to >> try to reform things. Real quick, uh, did you ever have any crossover with Pete Blabber at Delta Force? >> No, I sure didn't. Sorry. >> Hi, guys. Thank you for the talk. Very fruitful conversation. Um, this might be kind of a dark question, but what do you

[24:59] know about Frazzled Drip and other instances of government ritual sacrifice? Are they just conspiracy theories or is there an element of truth to these? Honestly, only what I've read in the in the press, there was an investigation, an actual investigation in the late 80s because there was a senior a senior off relatively senior officer at NSA who came out as a member of the Church of Satan. And um and he was accused of having engaged in ritual sacrifice. And so the FBI and the

[25:30] Defense Department did an investigation and they couldn't find any evidence of it. I think it's probably an urban myth u because they've never been able to actually prove any of the allegations that have been made. But again, you know, like I say, we're lied to so routinely that I don't want to say definitively like, "No, of course not. That's ridiculous." I haven't seen anything,

[26:01] but I I don't know. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. How's it going? Thank you for the conversation. Um, >> how much do you know about Epstein being a CIA asset? >> Oh, that's a good question. >> So, I was on record from early on saying that I believed that Epstein was a was an Israeli access agent. An access agent.

[26:31] Well, if you're a foreign intelligence service and you want intelligence from the highest levels, you want intelligence from a former president, from the sixth in line to the British throne, from the founder of the, you know, biggest company in the world, you're not going to recruit that person. They're it's not possible. They're not recruitable. So, you do the next best thing. You recruit somebody who can get right up against them and report back to you what they're saying. especially if you can get them into a compromising

[27:02] position. And so I believe that the Israelis were able to utilize Jeffrey Epstein to get close to Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew and Bill Gates and all these other people that we've heard about. Get them into compromising positions because otherwise why would you put cameras and listening devices in the bathrooms in addition to every other room in the house? Normal people don't do things like that. Um, Alan Dersowitz and I went

[27:33] WWE Smackdown on each other on the Pierce Morgan show on this issue and I stand by every single word I said. Um, I believe that he was working primarily for the for the Mossad. However, in the last release, the 3 million 3 and a half million pages that we have seen most recently, it was crystal clear that he was also volunteering to the CIA, to the FBI, to the British MI5 and MI6, to the Germans,

[28:06] and he tried repeatedly to volunteer to the Russians. He asked on four different occasions for a one-on-one meeting with Vladimir Putin. the SVR would not allow him to meet privately with Putin. They countered several times with a proposal to meet with Putin and two security officials. And it was Epstein that said no. So, I've come to the conclusion that yes, he was an Israeli access agent, but he was also what we call an intelligence peddler, where he'll pick up

[28:38] intelligence from different places or different people and then pass it to other intelligence services to kind of bank the goodwill. It ended up not really working out very well for him, but I think that's what we saw. I talked to his brother a couple of weeks ago and his brother said he's dead. He the brother took the body to the crematorium and actually pressed the button that burned him up. Um the

[29:08] brother says the question is was he murdered? And who knows, [snorts] you know, I'm I'm biased because of my own time in prison. People are like, "Well, my god, the the guards didn't make their rounds." No, cuz they never make the rounds. Cuz they're stupid and lazy and they're sleeping in the guard booth. It wasn't a conspiracy. You put these two morons on the unit and they're both, you know, [snorts] like this in the guard booth and they're like, "Oh my god, it's a conspiracy. They didn't make the rounds." No. Oh my god, the cameras

[29:40] weren't working. News flash, none of the cameras are working anywhere. It's This is the curse of the Bureau of Prisons. Oh, they put him in with a murderer. Yeah, because they're stupid and they do things like that. So, was he murdered? Maybe he was. I doubt it, but maybe he was. >> Either way, we'll probably never know. >> Do you think Charlie Kirk was killed by the MSAD because he was turning on

[30:10] Israel and was against the war with Iran? I will say there are some very strange things that surrounded the the assassination of Charlie Kirk. I know a lot of people who were very personally close to Charlie and none of them believe what we have been told as the official story so far. None of them. And these are people whom I respect deeply. Um, and you know, you have to ask yourself,

[30:42] why would Benjamin Netanyahu come out and say, "We didn't do it." Well, nobody accused you of doing it. What are you talking about? What do you mean you didn't do it? Why would you say something like that? We're going to put up a statue of Charlie Kirk in Tel Aviv. Why? Why would you do that when he had just come out against Israel? So, me thinks Vald protests too much. Um, I mentioned earlier on a podcast, I did a podcast earlier today and I said, um, another thing that bothers me very much

[31:14] is why in the world is the FBI involved in this investigation. Charlie Kirk was killed in Utah. The shooter came from Utah. The crime was planned in Utah. After he allegedly did the crime, he went back to his home in Utah, confessed to his friends in Utah, confessed to his dad in Utah. Okay. So, where's the Utah State Police and the Utah Attorney General's Office? Why in the world is the FBI

[31:45] involved? Are they covering something up? Are they trying to hijack the investigation? And why haven't we heard anything? Like we've heard literally nothing about the direction of this investigation. Why? I don't I don't get it. But then it reminds me too of of Butler. >> What did Butler just never happen? Are we supposed to not be asking questions about what happened and why did it happen in Butler, Pennsylvania?

[32:16] It's the same thing. It's like why this rush to silence, this rush to what appears to me to be cover up? Who are we protecting? So, like I said, I'm normally the least conspiratorial guy out there, but I I'm having to recess reassess my position on these issues because everybody's lying. It's been my experience that everybody's lying. One of the first things I said on one of my first appearances on Tucker Carlson's show when he was telling Fox is, "I've

[32:46] had to learn the hard way that everybody is lying. The CIA told us there's no torture program." That was a lie. The CIA told us there's no kidnapping and rendition program. That's a lie. The CIA said there's no uh secret uh archipelago of prisons around the world. That's a lie. everything they tell us is a lie and then they come out and they say, "Well, no, we're telling you the truth about this. We're telling you the truth." Wh Why would we believe you when literally

[33:16] everything else that you have said has been a lie? So, I think we shouldn't reserve judgment on any of these things because it very well may be a conspiracy. >> Yes. >> All right. This question is for both of you guys. Is it true or do you guys know anything about the fact that 240 journalists were supposedly killed in Gaza over a course of 60 to 90 days? >> Yeah. >> Is that true? >> Yeah. And that's that's it's true. It's one of the most horrible statistics

[33:47] that's out there. And it's more than all of the journalists killed in all of the other countries of the world combined >> since World War I. >> Since World War I. No, no, no. This is unprecedented. The world's never seen a scale of killing uh of journalists like we've seen. >> How do you think they're able to hide it so well and us not see these videos? >> Oh, I've got a I've got a friend Oh my gosh. The Israelis have this very heavy

[34:18] ownorous military um censorship law. I've got a friend who uh an he's an American citizen. He's a uh he's a blogger and he was doing some photography for the Guardian newspaper in the UK. So he's in the West Bank and he u he takes a picture of a crater where an Iranian uh missile had landed and then just sent it to the Guardian

[34:48] and he's immediately arrested by the Israelis for violating the uh the censorship law. So they said uh they were charging him with espionage and this is a death penalty case. He's like I'm I'm an American citizen. He's Jewish on top of it. He said uh I'm a I'm a journalist and they said um you might be able to negotiate 20 years in prison. So he said he's freaking out. He's crying every day. He was in he was in jail two or three excuse me. He was

[35:20] in jail two or three weeks and they finally expelled him from Israel, told him he can never come back. But um but it's this crazy heavy uh military censorship. They can deem anything they want as a national security secret. It can be, you know, a a picture of a hole in the ground from some missile or some drone. It can be a building. It can be anything they want it to be. and they'll shoot you and call it uh you know self-defense in the national defense and

[35:52] what are you going to do about it? And here in the United States, we just accept it. Whether it's whether it's Congress or the State Department, the White House, the mainstream media, we just take it. Whatever the Israelis rules are, we just we just adapt them or adapt to them uh as as our own. And I want to add to that, there's an AI program, targeting program called uh Lavender. And Lavender sucks up everything about people in a given area.

[36:22] And so I think that Lavender potentially could be behind the intentional targeting of journalists. So to me, this is the best case scenario actually. So that maybe the IDF officers aren't targeting journalists. Maybe Lavender is putting them on a targeting list because they're sucking up their news reports and their news reports are critical of Israel for killing ch. There was one woman, she was constantly documenting the killing of infants and children. She gives birth to her child. She's in her apartment. Her husband goes to get the birth certificate and a a rocket goes

[36:54] right through her window into her apartment killing her with her baby as she's breastfeeding. It makes me think of something the great Catholic anthropologist Rene Gerard said. to become in solidarity with the vulnerable is to become indistinguishable from those you serve. So here was a Palestinian woman documenting the killing of children and women and babies and infants and she dies breastfeeding her child. Um so yeah, this is this is happening. It's real. And I think we've been so formed we're we're so bigoted towards

[37:27] West Bank today or this week. Four Palestinians were kidnapped in their out of their dorms by the IDF, including an American citizen and a Christian girl. We don't we we're just well because they're probably all dangerous bad people. So, we just look away. I think we have been so so prepared to ignore these crimes because I can't imagine if Hamas shot uh a Jewish infant in the face. Today, that would be ignored. or if Hamas raided a a college dormatory and kidnapped four Jewish students, we'd

[38:00] ignore it. Well, it's because I wrote an article after I think I mentioned this earlier after my first trip uh to Egypt as we were evacuating Christians from Gaza. I help I'm an anti-Palestinian bigot where I actually detailed how my bigotry has been formed over a lifetime and how it took actually meeting the people of Gaza and the West Bank for me to even come to grips with how deep how I had such deeply held prejudice against the Palestinian people. So I think a lot

[38:31] of it has to do with prejudice. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It feels like with them introducing AI at the same time of all this and all of the nasty things that we're able to see on Instagram and Facebook now where before it was super censored, it really feels like they're desensitizing our generation in a massive way so that we're not focused on all these nasty things going on in these other countries. >> It's possible. >> Yeah. Sorry, I answered a question to you. Thank you. >> Thank you.

[39:03] Um, so I just had a question kind of it's related to the Venezuela when we took Maduro. Um, so I'm sure probably like a week after the report came out of like the Venezuelan soldiers were reporting like a new weapon that we were using. >> Yeah. >> And it was like causing you know headaches or whatever discombobulation. Right. >> So, just kind of using that sort of like an example, when you and during your time in the CIA, were there any sort of either boweapons or sonic weapons that that kind of made deaths look like, you

[39:33] know, a heart attack or an accident? >> Oh, the CIA has been working on weapons like that for decades. They work very closely, the the Director of Science and Technology works very closely with DARPA to develop these advanced weapons. But I'll tell you, in the 90s when Bill Clinton was president, >> um, >> somebody, >> I don't know, in the CIA general counsel's office, the White House office of the general counsel, I don't know, somebody said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute.

[40:03] >> These are violations of international law. As odd as this sounds, international law says that on the battlefield you can shoot somebody and kill him, but you can't beam a weapon at him. It's illegal. Like, you can't We were developing this weapon. It was a laser that would blind soldiers on the battlefield. That way, you don't have to kill them. >> But it's illegal to blind them. >> You have to kill them

[40:35] >> or you have to change the law. And so they just backed off on the development of the weapon. >> But you know, now you hear about about uh Havana syndrome all the time, >> right? It's easy to uh it's easy to dismiss Havana syndrome as the complaints of a crank. And I'll tell you, right when I got out of right when I got out of prison, I was hired by the American Psychological Association, the APA, to help them write a a list of uh rules by

[41:07] which APA member psychologists could conduct um national security interrogations. It was called the Brookline Protocols. And I was the only one of 13 who was not a psychologist. So, we're all going to lunch together one day and I said, "Guys, I have a question. Literally every single day I get at least one email from somebody who says the CIA is beaming waves at their head or communicating with them through a filling in their tooth or put a chip in their brain while they were sleeping.

[41:39] And they started laughing. I said, "How do I respond to these people?" And one of them said, "This is an entrylevel form of mental illness. Sometimes when people feel overwhelmed just with life, their brain defaults to a point where it needs to blame someone for their problems and the easiest person or organization to blame is a secret one. It's one that you don't understand. And so people believe that the CIA is targeting them. It's it's

[42:10] usually not. Um but they believe it is because they're experiencing this stress that they can't understand or cope with. I said, "Okay, that makes sense to me." Then I started seeing reports of this Havana syndrome and I thought, "Oh, it's that, you know, it's that default to the CIA beam beaming waves uh at your head." Until Mark Polymoropolis came out. Mark Polymoropoulos is a friend of mine. We we got hired together and we're

[42:40] both Greeks and we used to, you know, talk about how great it was to be Greek and he went into operations a couple of years before I did. He rose up through the ranks and became the station chief in Moscow. >> Wow. >> Right. He's a serious guy. >> Senior level positions all around the world and he came out. He retired. >> Said he had this Havana syndrome, got an MRI and shows a traumatic brain injury. >> Well, if Mark Polyropolis says Havana

[43:12] syndrome is real, it's real. because he's as serious a guy as I know at the CIA. >> Is it the CIA's weapon? The Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis. >> I don't have any idea, but it's out there and it's being used. >> Um, >> yeah. So, I'm sure you've seen like recently there's a guy in Fox News who got caught wearing a mask. I was wondering about like how sophisticated and realistic the CIA disguises are.

[43:44] Oh, that's a great question. >> I saw that incredible I didn't know if that was real or not. That was real. That was a mask >> on another show and it it was the same guy. >> It was the same guy. I I don't know if that was real. It looked like right here. It looked like a mask, >> but that's not that's not how CIA masks are made. They're made more like prosthetics. >> You know what I mean? So, it it would have been glued. It wouldn't have been a mask that you pull on like you could buy on Amazon, even the expensive ones. It

[44:15] would have been glued like a prosthetic and it would have gone all the way down to his midchest. So, that made me think that it wasn't real or maybe there was some AI stuff going on. But with that said, my very first day at the CIA, I've I've said that half a dozen times so far today. I'm sitting next to a guy on my left, a woman on my right, and we're all so happy. It's our first day at the CIA. Hi, nice to meet you. I'm John. Nice to meet you. I said, "Where'd you guys go to school?" This guy went to college. I

[44:46] said, "What did they hire you to do?" He said, "Well, they hired me because I was the school cartoonist in the newspaper, right? They hired him to be a master forger." And they trained him to be a master forger. He and I did an operation together. I'm going to say 10, nine, 10 years later. You'd never know that this was a forgery. It was incredible. The woman had just finished a certificate at the false church Virginia School of Beauty. Seriously. And she became a master

[45:17] disguise maker. I did an [clears throat] sorry, I did an operation with her a decade later in which she came out to my station six weeks in advance and she said, "We're going to do an experiment with you. We're gonna make the first ever bald head with a comb over disguise. [laughter] She put those hairs in one hair at a time and it took the whole six weeks. She worked for days to get the color of

[45:49] the bald head exactly the same as the color of my skin. We finally went in to the station chief's office and he's like, "I can't believe it. I can't believe what a perfect disguise it is. He said, "We've got to fool the ambassador." So, the only seam was right here at the uh at the bridge of my nose, but I didn't wear glasses at the time. So, I put on glasses that had just clear frames. And we walked into the ambassador's office, and the station chief says, "Ambassador, I want to

[46:21] introduce you to um one of our experts from Washington. He's here to talk about the Middle East. I work for the ambassador every single day for 18 months. And he gets up and he says, "Hi, it's so nice to meet you. Welcome to Athens." And I said, "Thank you. It's nice to meet you, too." And then he's kind of smiling like, "Okay." And and I went like this. And I pulled the head off. And he goes, "Oh my god." I said, "It's great, right?" And he said, "You people, I don't even know what to say." So there

[46:53] are great mess. And that was a long time ago. >> Oh, I get a better story. That was that was 26 years ago. >> Yeah. >> Getting back to the idea of a of a uh one that comes all the way down the chest and is glued down. Um, I parked my car one morning in the parking lot at CIA headquarters and I'm walking toward the building and there's this guy walking toward me 7 o'clock in the morning and he's staring at me and I

[47:24] remember thinking, "Dad, these gay guys are always coming on to me, right? Cuz the guy's like looking at my my body, looking at me." So, I I stopped and I was like, "What?" And he's like, "I'm sorry. I don't mean to stare at you, but uh I'm involved in a covert action program and I can't tell you about it, but I really need to see you in room, you know, 1B 035 tomorrow at 6:30 in the morning. And I said, are you kidding me? He says, "No, please, please take my word for it." I was

[47:56] intrigued. So the next day, I go, it's 6:30 in the morning. They make me sign a secrecy agreement. I said, 'What's up?' He says, 'I didn't mean to stare at you like that yesterday, but you are exactly the same height, weight, and body shape as this world leader that we're going after. And uh we might need to work with you on this covert action program. I said, "Okay." I said, "I I can't. I'm leaving

[48:27] for Greece day after tomorrow. I'm going PCS, permanent change of station to Greece." He's like, "We'll be in touch." I forgot about it. Six months later, the station chief comes in. He says, "You're being summoned home for something that's so highly classified, I'm not allowed to know about it." And I said, "Oh, it's this this guy that I ran into in the parking lot. It's no big deal." He said, "Well, they're insisting that you go." So, I come back. They hired two Emmy

[48:57] award-winning Hollywood makeup artists to create the mask. And when they were done, it took six hours every day for me to put the mask on. I had to sit in this chair for six hours every day. And then we would get up and for the next couple of hours, I would do the thing that I was supposed to do. And when it was all done and they were able to degrade the film to make it look like it was coming from a foreign

[49:29] country, I was the guy. I got a medal for that. I can't even really tell you what it was. >> Yeah. >> But the the sophistication of the masks 26 years ago made me think that what we saw on Fox the other day was fake >> because you would never know. It would be way more sophisticated than than a mask hanging open here at the >> base of the throat like a costume. That's right.

[49:59] >> What about uh Biden doubles body doubles? >> You know, the only doubles that I ever knew conclusively were doubles uh were used by Saddam Hussein. He had a whole bunch of doubles and his son Uday had doubles, but everybody else is just like it it just doesn't happen in real life. But >> great. Hi, I was just wondering uh does the CIA pay any mind to like spiritual supernatural phenomenon? And if so, have they like tried to weaponize that or use

[50:31] that in any way? That was certainly a part of MK Ultra between 1952 and 1975, but it got so out there and and they weren't able to go to Congress with like concrete evidence that they were able to make inroads into into its usage that they just kind of walked away from it. So, in the end, it it didn't amount to anything. >> So, like apart from like N MK Ultra, there's like really no they don't really pay attention to anything spiritual at

[51:01] all. >> Mhm. All >> right. Thank you. You bet. >> Do you think the CIA or MSAD played any part or at least had prior knowledge to 9/11? >> Oh, that's a great question. Um, I you know what? Let me start on July the 6th, 2001. Normal day. Uh that day I was entertaining a group of mid-level Middle Eastern intelligence officers. This is

[51:33] something we did every single day. You give them a day of briefings. You take them upstairs to shake hands with the director, get their picture taken, we exchange gifts, and then we take them out to a fancy dinner at the end of the night. That day I had scheduled a briefing with a junior al-Qaeda analyst from the counterterrorism center at 10:00. So at 10:00 knock on the door. I open the door. It's not the junior 25-year-old

[52:03] al-Qaeda analyst. It's the director of counterterrorism for the entire CIA, Kofheer Black, and and the head of operations for the Assama bin Laden unit, a woman we used to call the red-headed devil. She's lucky we were that nice about it, too. So, Kofheer and the Redheaded Devil came in and I was shocked. I I stood up. I said, "Oh," I said, "Gentlemen, gentlemen, this is uh this is Kofheer Black. He's the director of the CIA's counterterrorism center. Ambassador

[52:35] Black, this is, you know, blah blah blah." >> And he sits down. >> I had no idea why he was there and why he had preempted this junior analyst. And he starts by saying something terrible is going to happen. >> We don't know exactly when or where, but we know it's going to be an attack on an unprecedented scale. We're picking up chatter from the al-Qaeda training camps. We're hearing camp commanders on the phone with their students and they're crying and telling them, "I'll

[53:07] see you in paradise." We're hearing code words for a massive attack. the honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey. >> There's going to be a huge wedding or a huge soccer game. And he said, "I'm begging you. If you have any sources inside al-Qaeda, please help us." And they just sat there and looked at him. >> And then he got up, he shook their hands, they walked out. At the end of the day, I sent them back to the hotel.

[53:38] I said, "I'll pick you up in 3 hours. We'll go to dinner." But I went back to Kofheer's office to thank him. And I said, "Kofheer, I have to ask you, I don't work on al-Qaeda daytoday." This was, like I say, two months before 911. I said, "Did you say that for their benefit or did you mean it?" And he said, "Oh, I meant it. Something terrible is going to happen." On the morning of September 11th, it's quaint now to say it, but Kofheer

[54:09] and I had a meeting with Condisa Rice, who was the national security adviser at the time, over the silliest issue. There's a there's a a small almost unknown little government agency called the GO, the government printing office, and they just print all the reports and books and declassified silliness that comes out of government. They were publishing a book called Foreign Affairs of the United States, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, 1949 to 1967.

[54:42] And it was just declassified cables. Nobody is ever going to read this book ever. I'd be surprised if they ever actually printed any copies. But in the 1,200 pages were the names of three CIA sources who were still alive. And we have an obscure law in this country that if the government outs a CIA source, the government has to offer the source American citizenship. Well,

[55:15] these guys are all a hundred years old. None of them are going to take the American citizenship. So, we were meeting with Connie Rice to say, just pull the pages out or black out the names or something. Nobody's ever going to look anyway. So, I get a call um from the driver saying he was ready to take us to the White House. So, I walk up to Kofheer's office and his secretary, her desk was right outside the office. These were the days before you could watch TV on your computer. So, she had a little tiny TV on her desk and one of the buildings,

[55:46] one of the towers of the World Trade Center was burning. I said, "What happened to the World Trade Center?" and she said, "U plane flew into it." And I always say, "Because I'm so smart." I said, "You know, that happened once before in 1930. A bomber flew into the Empire State Building, but it was really foggy and raining heavily that day. It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center?" And as soon as

[56:16] the words came out of my mouth, the second plane hit. And she turns to me and she says, "Did you see that or did I imagine it?" And I ran back to my office. I said, "Guys, two planes just hit both towers of the World Trade Center. I think we're under attack. I think this is what Kofheer was talking about in July." So, everybody runs back up to the to the front of the office and >> and it was all downhill from there. So

[56:47] >> I go to Pakistan a couple of months later and in March we capture Abu Zubeda. When we caught Abu Zuba we also captured his diary and in the diary it was a fascinating fascinating document. He was an accomplished artist. He would write poetry letters to himself as a young man like warning himself treat our mother with respect. don't whistle at that girl in the village, you know, stuff like that. But he also had the

[57:19] private cell phone numbers of three Saudi princes. >> So I wrote to headquarters. I said, "Be advised. I'm looking at Abu Zuba's, you know, whatever this is. It appears to be a diary." And he's got the private cell phone numbers of these three Saudi princes. So, we go to the Saudis and we said, "We want these guys or we're going to start killing people and some of them are going to be named Al Sah." Next thing you know, one of them goes in

[57:50] for beriatric surgery because they're all giant fat pigs. He goes into buriatric surgery and dies on the operating table. One is driving on the Riad to Jedha Highway and is killed in a onecar accident. And the third one goes camping in the desert and dies of thirst. So they said, "Sorry, we really wanted to turn them over to you, but we can't now."

[58:20] That led me to believe, and subsequent revelations led me to believe that the Saudis were involved. Plus the fact that the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan al-Soud, his wife wired $50,000 to the hijackers before the attacks. They've never answered for that. Number one. Number two, we've all heard the stories of the dancing Israelis and and the Israeli u whatever it is 18 36, however many it

[58:53] was, Israelis that were arrested after 9/11 and held for several weeks and then finally released obviously Mossad agents. I do not believe that the Mossad was involved in >> the 911 attacks. What I believe is that the Mossad had infiltrated al-Qaeda, knew that the attacks were coming, knew that they would likely be in New York, and purposely didn't tell us because they knew that our response would be that we would kill 2 million Muslims in

[59:27] the next 20 years, which is exactly what we did. And that benefited Israeli foreign policy. John, I've heard you give this answer before. The uh the first week of September that year, 2001, I was my first year in DC. I was invited to a retreat that included White House staff, Senate leadership, and I was invited to give a speech on pop pop culture and abortion. That's what my speech was on. Tony Blankley gave a speech who was the editor of the editorial page of the

[59:58] Washington Times. His speech said, this was 11 11 days before September 11th, September 1st, he said, "There's going to be a terrorist attack in this country that changes the trajectory of our nation. It's eminent. Be prepared." And 11 days later was September. I've always thought, what did Tony Blankley know? >> I I can tell you I can guess, okay, >> what he knew. George Tennant, who was the CIA director, and Dick Clark, who was the counterterrorism ZAR at the

[1:00:29] White House were screaming from the rooftops, "An attack is coming." And Condisa Rice, Dick Cheney, and George W. Bush says say, "You're wrong. The threat is from China. We have to prepare for war with China, not these Arabs who don't even have shoes. That's not where the danger is coming from. And they were wrong. >> So when you see that look on Bush's face when he's reading to the kids, that that

[1:01:00] look is so punctuated with meaning, you like, what is he think? What he was thinking is I was wrong. >> Oh boy, did I blow this one. >> That's a I mean that the look in his eyes. You remember in the days after 911, just for a minute, some of the White House people said, "This is Bill Clinton's fault. This all the all the planning was from Bill Clinton's time." And they're like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. This is an American failure." >> Yeah. >> Right. The State Department gave the hijackers visas. They were all here

[1:01:31] illegally. The CIA couldn't stop them. FAA, there was no such thing as T as TSA. The FAA contracted out airport security. They didn't stop them, right? The FBI knew they were in the country. They didn't stop them. It was a failure on all of our parts. Like truly an American failure. Congress didn't know what the heck was going on. >> We all failed. >> And so Tony Blankley was probably they were leaking to the Times and other

[1:02:01] folks >> like help us out here because the White House was reading the >> years at a retreat included White House staff senator leadership. And so he was saying wake up. >> That's exactly what that was. That was that was the CIA calling him and saying, "Look, the White House reads your paper. You've got to convey this message for us." >> Okay. >> Hey, John and Jason. Love you guys. Um, I have a question on Zionism and and how they got such a foothold in evangelicals, even the Catholic Church, Catholic schools to be specific. Um, a

[1:02:31] lot of them, I know you say Netanyahu doesn't do it for religious reasons, which I believe. I think it's for power, but what about these other people? How much of it is for money? How much is it for ideology? How much of it is religion? >> I think you're better equipped to answer that than I am. You travel in those circles much more than I do. >> Yeah. I think >> Yeah. I think there, you know, when when I was in um for the inauguration, I didn't want to be in Washington DC. I wanted to be in Gaza. So, I went to Jordan. Israel wouldn't

[1:03:02] let me into Gaza. So, I thought, well, my friends are going to be celebrating with the president. and I had friends in the administration and everyone was going to be there in their black ties and I thought no I just want to be with the persecuted church. So I actually was at the time I was in the West Bank and I was talking to Reverend Munther who you may know he's a Palestinian Christian leader an evangelical Lutheran pastor and so they were horrified at the prospects of you know Ambassador Huckabe

[1:03:33] becoming ambassador to Israel. And at the time I know Ambassador Huckabe I've known him since 2007. Um, I know his family and I'm, you know, I I I admired him. I I have always I'm an adult convert to Christianity and Catholicism. I say, you know, the parable of the the the seed that falls on rocky soil. I'm afraid I'm the rocky soil. And so when I look at someone like a Mike Huckabe, I saw someone that I thought of as very a kind godly man.

[1:04:05] And I think so many people that have absorbed Christian in fact I was executive producer on a film called Sing a Little Louder about a church. It's a true story of a church community in Germany when a train on its way I think to Saxonhous and broke down in front of the church during Sunday services. They were screaming for help and the pastor said sing a little louder. I worked on this film actually I wrote the ending of this film and Mike Cuckabby would use it on his tours of the Holy Land and Awitz on the tour buses. Um, I felt that although he his

[1:04:35] theology, this heresy, I think Christian Zionism is apostasy because if you don't see Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of all of the promises of Abraham, I don't see how you're a Christian and any orthodox understanding of what it means to be a Christian. But I felt that when Mike Huckabe had the intelligence reports, when he got to know the truth, um he would react to what he was was revealed to him. This Christmas, I was at I was at um the Church of the

[1:05:06] Nativity with two of my sons and my director of Middle East operations and Mike Huckabe was right in front of us. I was I knew me many members of his team and we were talking and Mike turned to his daughter and said to Sarah, you know what's all that commotion? She goes, Jason Jones is here. And then they both roll their eyes. So we talked to one of his delegate, someone on his team who told us he was with them when they went into Gaza and

[1:05:36] witnessed starvation. He came back out and held a press conference saying he saw no evidence of hunger or starvation. So I I don't know if I had a wrong assessment of the man, but generally I think of that generation, the closer you are to the Holocaust and your fathers and uncles fought the Nazis that they look at the lens of suffering in Gaza or in Israel through their their generation's experience and it just

[1:06:08] becomes too complex. The head of the MSAD just wrote something very sorrowful. the former head from 2011 to 2017. He wrote that he was ashamed of being Jewish. When I read that, I thought of something. The greatest thinker of the 20th century in my opinion is the Jewish philosopher Hannah Irand. This woman is to all young people. You should study the life of Hannah Irand. She was a genius. She was a student of Haidiger. She was his lover. Then he joins the Nazi party. Then she's betrayed by her

[1:06:39] country Germany which she loved. She was betrayed by her lover Haidiger who was called the new Socrates. Then when she wrote a very nuanced and beautiful report on Ike Ikeman in Jerusalem, the MSAD had plans to kill her. So she's betrayed by everyone, everyone she loved. In 1952, she was speaking in Berlin to college students and one of the students said in a question and answer session like this, "I'm ashamed of being German." And Hannah said, "Um, that's really silly. You should be you shouldn't be ashamed of being German.

[1:07:09] you should be very ashamed of being a human being. What I think is so hard for the boomers, as your generation likes to call us, is to know that we're all human beings. Jews are human beings. Palestinians are human beings. And we're human beings. We're looking for white hats. The Israelis don't have a white hat. The Palestinians don't have a white hat. We don't have a white hat. The world is very complex. And um I just think it's this this fear of acknowledging the reality of what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank will

[1:07:40] ferment Jew hatred. And so they just can't bring themselves to acknowledge it. But I think it's the opposite. If we fail to acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinian people, this this this acceptance of collective punishment will eventually blow back on Israel. And so we have to resist collective punishment and collective guilt. And um so for these boomers it's heresy. I think it was a heresy cultivated by you know cultivated by design. If you go to the National Religious

[1:08:10] Broadcasters Conference you see more Israeli flags. You won't see an American flag but you see Israeli flags everywhere. And why is this at a religious broadcasters conference? Um I've asked my Christian Zionist friends, what do you hold to more strongly? Your commitment to Israel, your belief in the Trinity? and they will really quickly say their commitment to the state of Israel, which just strikes me as very odd. Um, but that's because they've been propagandized in supporting the state of Israel, whereas there's not a, you know what, there's a $750 million was just

[1:08:42] signed into a Hasbro operation to United States that Israel's committed. There's not a $750 million campaign to promote uh belief in the Trinity. Um, but I I do think and we're working on a documentary to look at the difference of these generations and I want to have empathy to the baby boomers. If you boil it down, I don't think there's really a difference. The baby boomers, they're looking at the horror of the Holocaust and your generation is looking at the horror of of Gaza. So, both generations have real

[1:09:16] commitment to a brutalized, helpless population. And maybe when we can acknowledge that, that can unite us as a country and we can see an end to the hell that the the people of Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza are suffering. >> I think the the censorship kind of creates anti-semitism as you were saying. And that, you know, it makes way for a lot of hatred. And I think what a lot of people lack is charity um on that side of it, the far rightwing, especially the younger guys. Um, so I wanted to give John an opportunity to talk about what you were telling me

[1:09:47] earlier about that in Greece that that story of the Zoki, what was it? The Zoki. >> Oh, Zakintos. >> Yes. Oh, yeah. >> Wonderful story. I think really helps that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Zakintos is a Greek island in the Ionian Sea. Um, and I'll preface it by saying that um that Greece lost a higher per capita percentage of its Jewish population than any other country in the world, even Poland uh during World War II. So

[1:10:18] when the Nazis took Greece in late 1940, they sent a a major to be the occupation governor of the island of Zakintos. And his very first action was to call in the mayor of Zakintos and the bishop, the Greek Orthodox bishop of Zakintos uh to his office. When they arrived, he said that he wanted in the next 24 hours a list of all Jews on the island and all of their addresses.

[1:10:50] The bishop and the mayor went back to the mayor's office to discuss what to do. And they decided 24 hours later to go back to the major's office and they gave him this list. And the list was only their two names and their two addresses. And they said, "We're the only Jews on this island." In the meantime, they had enlisted families all over the island to hide all of the Jews in caves, in

[1:11:20] stables, and barns, and anywhere they could hide people. They hid every Jew on the island. The major responded, "Stop and think what you're doing. I'm going to have to kill both of you." and they repeated, "There are no Jews on this island other than the two of us." There was evidence that I found at the Holocaust Museum in Washington that they had also written a letter addressed to Hitler that they gave to the major,

[1:11:52] but there's no evidence that the major ever sent it back to Berlin. The long and short of it is that the Germans withdrew in 1944 and Zakinthtos was literally the only place in Greece that didn't lose one single Jew. Not one. They saved every one of them. The reason I was telling you this story is that my great-grandfather, my father's mother's

[1:12:23] father, was a chauffeur for a wealthy Greek Jewish man on the island of Roads. And when the Nazis came, they rounded up all the Jews. There were about 2,000 Jewish Rhodians. They were brought together in the medieval city in what is today called the Square of the Jewish martyrs. The man that my great-grandfather worked for ran for his life and came to my great-grandparents house. They lived in a little three- room hut. They were very

[1:12:54] poor. And he asked if they would hide him. So they they hid him and they moved him from family member to family member to family member. And sometimes he would stay for weeks and you know where they kept the pigs and this little piece of land that they had halfway up the mountain. But he survived. And my grandmother always said that when she was growing up, you didn't have any idea who was Jewish and who was not Jewish. And everybody just lived as as

[1:13:27] brothers and sisters. It wasn't until the Germans came where they said, you know, these ones are okay. These ones are not okay. We're rounding all of these up. Of the 2,000 Rhodian Jews that were taken from the island that day, they made their way by boat to Athens, train to Thessaloni, and then another train took them directly to Avitz. So, of the 2,000 that were taken, 14 survived, and seven returned to the island,
