Title: John Kiriakou CIA Whistleblower Exposes the Deep State
Show: Eric Hunley
Date: 2025-08-21
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wMIWv7STA
Duration: 1:04:02

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[00:01] The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. And the CIA literally in in the span of a day transformed from an organization whose mission was to recruit spies to steal secrets to a paramilitary organization. When the values that define our nation are intentionally disregarded by our

[00:31] security policies, even those policies that are conducted in secret. >> If Russia had joined NATO, do you think we'd be in the same mess we're in now? >> No. >> And that pendulum has not swung back yet. I I'm not sure that it will. He was going to pardon me and Assange and Snowden. But then, [Music]

[01:04] all right, we're joined today by John Kiryaku. How are you doing today, John? >> Very well, thanks. How are you? >> I'm doing well and I'm really glad to get a chance to meet you. I've interviewed different CIA officers and yes, I've learned it's officers, not agents. That's right. And um it's a pet peeve of ours. >> Oh yeah, that that's been made clear. Even though I also interviewed um an SACE from the FBI and he made it clear that you never call them a sack. >> That's funny.

[01:35] >> So they have their own pet peeves, too. >> It's like why? Well, you don't want to be called a sack. Why? What could that mean? But um you um were in the CIA for a while near a whistleblower and I know you've probably repeated it 5,000 times, but can you give a thumbnail sketch about what happened that made you decide you maybe you quit in 2004 and then I believe you did an interview in 2007, but you didn't get any trouble

[02:06] about that. >> Oh, I got lots of trouble. >> Okay. I got yeah I I gave an interview to ABC News in 2007 in which I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official US government policy and that the policy had been personally approved by the president. The white the the CIA within 24 hours of that interview uh reported me to the FBI saying that I had revealed not just classified information to the media but top secret information in the media. The

[02:37] FBI investigated me for a year from December of 2007 until December of 2008. But they determined that I had not committed a crime because it is illegal to classify a criminal act for the purpose of keeping the information from the American people. And so they declined to prosecute me. Three weeks later, Barack Obama becomes president and he names John Brennan as the uh deputy national security adviser for

[03:08] counterterrorism. John asked Eric Holder, the new attorney general, to secretly reopen the case against me. They investigated me for three more years and then in January of 2012 charged me with five felonies, including three counts of espionage coming out of that ABC News interview. This, however, was not a case about leaking. This was a case about torture. And I believe I'm going to prison because I blew the whistle on torture. I've been a thorn in the CIA's side since that interview in

[03:39] 2007 in which I said that waterboarding was torture and that it was official US government policy. And I think finally the Justice Department caught up with me. So this would be John Brennan um communist John Brennan literally who voted for the Communist uh party of America I believe twice. Yeah. He uh and he treated it as a big joke like like the the franchise is is worthy of just throwing it away by

[04:10] making a joke and voting for Gus Hall, the Communist Party USA nominee for president. >> Okay. So, I I just wanted to throw that out there because >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. >> Always been disturbed. Um I am admittedly not a fan of Brennan. I'm not a fan of Clapper. >> Um Clapper, I feel committed perjury in front of Congress. >> Most most clearly. Yes. >> And has never apologized. >> No. And I you know that's funny because

[04:41] people have gone to prison for contempt of Congress, I believe, and for perjury. So, it's very confusing. >> Those are two those are two crimes that that Democrats made great use of in the first Trump administration. They sent a lot of people to the dock for contempt of Congress and for perjury. Yeah. But but you're right, Brennan and Clapper never went to prison for for either of those crimes. Now, one thing, maybe you can help me clear it up because there does seem to be a bit of a discrepancy. Uh if I recall, Obama was

[05:12] one of the only senators who voted against the Iraq war. He >> Okay. >> He voted >> he was elected to the Senate after the Iraq war uh had begun. >> Okay. >> But he voted repeatedly to fund the Iraq war. >> I see. So he ran being against it. Yeah. >> But then he voted for it. >> Correct. >> And then he peed on the same people. >> Correct. >> Um like Gates, I believe, you know, when he came over. So he was all for the Iraq

[05:44] war then in the end. >> Mhm. He was sure >> you know >> John Kerry who you worked for who threw his medals during Vietnam. >> Well there's a story there. >> Oh please tell me in in December of 2008. Carrie called me and said that well we we had a mutual friend and he said that he was going to become the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. he was going to reconstitute the committee's um investigative function and would I be

[06:15] interested in taking a job as the senior investigator on the on the foreign relations committee. I said I'd be interested in the conversation. I went up to his office to speak to him. So I go into the office. It was in the Russell Senate office building, which is the original Senate Office Building. It's very historic, high ceilings. That's where everybody wants to be. You go into Car's office at the time and literally from the floor to the 15 foot

[06:45] ceiling of the room, there are framed pictures of Carrie with every world leader you can imagine. From Gorbachav to the Pope to the Daly Lama and everybody in between. It's kind of cool, but it's sort of an altar to himself. When you first walk in, there's a credenza on the left. And the credenza had three things on it. it on the left was a picture of Carrie in an embrace with John Lennon and they're like giving each other nookies. Very cool picture. Who wouldn't want to have his picture

[07:16] joking around with John Lennon like that? On the other side of the credenza was a a picture of Carrie with Peter Paul and Mary the folk group. He was friendly with all of them. He gave the eulogy at Mary Travers funeral. Very close. In the middle was a shadow box with his medals in it. And when the meeting ended, I went out. I left the office and uh and the chief of staff said, "Well, how did it go?" And I said, "Oh, it was great. He offered me the job. I told him I'd take it, but I got a question." I said, "The

[07:48] shadow box with the medals." I said, "What's up with that?" He threw the medals over the White House. Everybody in America knew that he had thrown the medals over the White House fence to protest the Vietnam War. and he laughed and he said, "Those medals are the most important things in his life." That morning he went to the PX and bought copies of the medals and threw the copies over the White House fence. I said, "So it's all these years,

[08:18] decades, it was all based on a lie. That's John Ky. That's the real John Ky. That's a perfect character statement rolled up in the thumbnail, which is really damning >> in my opinion. It It reminds me of Lyndon Baines Johnson and his Silver Star. >> Oh boy, we could tell stories about Johnson for the next hour. >> Well, actually, I have. I have another show called America's Untold Stories. My partner has dug deep into that and um yes, there's loads about LBJ

[08:51] similar. >> You've heard the story about LBJ's first congressional race 1946. He was an internal poll show or 40 >> six or 48. >> Well, there was Fox 13 if that's where you're going. >> No, it was the uh an internal poll showed him showed him uh trailing uh his opponent and he told the campaign manager, "Let's let's start a rumor that he had sex with a pig." And and the the uh campaign manager said, "But he hasn't

[09:22] had sex with a pig." And Johnson said, "I know he hasn't, but let's make the son of a [ __ ] deny it." And he ended up winning the race. >> Well, he did. Okay. And then more famously later on, he became Lanclide Lynon with the box 13 and running the Mexicans, which by the way, uh, in odd fairness to him, he got burned the election before that. So, he learned, oh, we've got to make sure to keep counting the votes until they square up for us. Always have a few out there. So,

[09:54] >> and I think that one's been pretty well proven. >> Yeah. >> But yeah. Okay. So, um you've been in the thick of all the shenanigans. I've been just kind of on the side reading and researching and things like that, but I wanted to share um an interview that I did three years ago with a another CIA officer and I believe you've debated him. I haven't seen the full debate. I just know that you debated him. Andrew Bamanti. Mhm. >> And I kind of had a little disagreement with him. And you may completely agree

[10:26] with him, you may agree with me, but I wanted to see if I could just play the clip and and see what you think because I think it may represent some views inside the CIA. >> And once you make something subjective, now all of a sudden you make it a battle of wills and morals. Wills and morals should not exist in the world of national security. >> Right? Again, who are you protecting? The citizens, right? >> Okay. >> I mean, the country is made up by citizens. Technically, everybody in the government works for the people. The

[10:57] citizens, the people, >> that's not that's actually not true. The people in government do not work for the citizens. Citizens can't vote on their government employees. >> That gets into a deep state, but that's bureaucratic element of it that they can't vote on it, but they can't vote on who's appointing the people and who is running the agency. So technically we're on steps that are removed but ultimately the government is supposedly working for the taxpayer >> and we get into the details of the deep state and the bureaucratical element of it and >> none of that has to do with the deep state man. None of that has to do with the deep >> well deep state is just another term for

[11:29] a bureaucracy just for the people who have been there for 20 years and they're there through every politician coming and going. It's just it sounds really creepy. So, I'm not I'm not saying deep state in that sense, but um >> now I may have been meandering a bit there. Um and what I probably forgot to express is that I I was a soldier at one point. I didn't, you know, go around like Pete Turner or whatever, but I swore an oath to the Constitution as a soldier. >> Absolutely. >> And that oath to the Constitution I in my personal view is a an oath to the American people ultimately.

[12:00] >> You swore to uphold the Constitution and to protect it against all enemies, domestic and foreign. It's the same oath that I took. And Andrew Bamante is wrong, wrong, wrong in that position. He used that same position in the debate that I had with him on the Danny Jones podcast. And the thing about Andrew, he's very, very bright, but he puts himself into into a a a box or a corner that he can't get out of. He's just wrong in that position. We

[12:31] are public employees. We answer to the American people and you know when you enter the federal bureaucracy and like you the I I believe that the federal bureaucracy is the deep state. You can call it the state, you can call it the bureaucracy, you can call it the deep state. It's all the same thing. But we are a a nation of laws and we are a nation that has a living and breathing constitution that we have to defend and protect. And we cannot and should not violate the law

[13:02] and pretend as Andrew says that we don't have any moral component to the work that we do. Of course we do. We're not authoritarians. Well, and that's what I wanted to express because I I, you know, talked to different people and I've watched it and I've debated around and I haven't changed my mind on it. It's kind of a I I feel like that was a an important moment that I fear, I could be wrong, um, illustrates the culture that I think

[13:33] may be within the CIA or maybe was within the CIA. Is that fair? Yes, that was the culture in the CIA beginning on 911 and going all the way well, I'm going to say even even today, it's it's still a part of the culture because we've got organizations like the Special Activities Division or Global Resources uh uh group or special activities group in counterterrorism

[14:04] whose job it is to fly around the world and kill people. So, yes, everything changed on 911. >> Now, while everything is changing because I' I've done a lot of stuff with the CIA. You got MK Ultra. You got other things where the CIA's hands haven't always been clean or they maybe never been clean. I don't know. And I understand that it's kind of a dirty business. So there may have to be issues going here and there, but

[14:34] it seems like the CIA has in fact done a bit of drug running. >> I've interviewed um DEA people. I don't know if you've ever seen this show Narcos. >> Oh, loved it. Never missed an episode. >> Uh I interviewed both Javier and >> Oh, great. >> Um and Steve, um his name slipp my mind. I interviewed both of them and one thing Javier especially said is there was nobody more hated by the DEA than the CIA. >> CIA because those scenes in Narcos where

[15:07] the DEA is right on the brink of of getting you know the big guy whether it's Pablo Escobar or the gentleman of Cali or whomever and the CIA steps in just screws the pooch that was in Narcos because that's what really happened. The CIA doesn't give a [ __ ] about drugs. The CIA at the time cared about communism. Drugs were somebody else's problem. DEA, maybe FBI, but communism is all that the CIA cared about at the

[15:37] time. >> Well, that was kind of his founding um doctrine, right? That's right. >> That's cold. >> Uhhuh. >> And um I and I'll also say that he personally held a grudge because of Kiki Kamarana. Mhm. >> Uh who >> and and he had every rightly. >> Yes. >> Okay. So there there are real questions about the CIA involvement in the death of Kiki Kamarana. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I I don't know the inside story, but I've heard the same rumors that you

[16:08] have. >> Wasn't until you a year later that I recruit the third guy that was there, Ramol, who who we all know about now. And I brought him in and I said, "Okay, tell me who interrogated Kiki." And he starts running me to everybody that interrogated Kiki and how they tortured him and everything else. And then he says, "And there was a Cuban guy that interrogated Kiki and his name was Ismael Phelis Rodriguez." I says, "Who's he?" He's a CIA operative. He interrogated Kiki. >> Okay. Well, I've also interviewed um another DEA agent um Mike Lavine, and he

[16:42] talked about a a DIA operative who was arrested ultimately and then he died and they sensed cyanide on him when they first did the necropsy or whatever. >> And then later on they said, "Oh, no, no, no, no. It was it was an allergy, a a a peanut butter allergy because he he died of a peanut butter sandwich. And and the where I'm going with this is he

[17:12] was on Phil Donahue with um uh another individual, Gary Webb, I think you might have heard of. >> Yeah, I was the uh script adviser on the film uh Kill the Messenger about Gary Webb. >> Oh, wow. Okay. Well, Mike Lavine was on Phil Donghue with Gary Webb and apparently he got a phone call in the green room right before going on and um they essentially sold him be careful

[17:44] or you may have a peanut butter sandwich and that was some dark and scary thing. So I I guess where I'm going is that did the CIA because you kind of over overlapped. You were in the CIA for uh 11 years before 911. >> Almost. Yeah. 11 years before 911. That's right. Yeah. >> So the majority of your CIA career could actually be seen as pre 911. >> Yes. >> Was it changing? >> Oh,

[18:14] there there were real eras that we can we can point to with definitive beginnings and ends. Um I I entered the CIA at the tail end of the cold war where we were talking about the peace dividend. We started liazing with Warsaw packed countries and you know exchanging intelligence. We're talking about the Russians maybe joining

[18:45] NATO back then and everybody was all, you know, milk and honey. And then and then 9/11 came and the CIA literally in in the span of a day transformed from an organization whose mission was to recruit spies to steal secrets and then to analyze those secrets to allow the policy makers the best to make the best informed policy

[19:17] to a paramilitary organization that had created created a torture program, a secret prison program, a rendition, an extraordinary rendition program, kill lists, assassination squads, literally overnight and with an unlimited budget to back it all up. And that pendulum has not swung back yet. I I'm not sure that it will. There there's been this fundamental change within the CIA.

[19:48] So yeah, most of my career, twothirds of my career was was before 911. You made me think of a off-the-wall question, but it does make me wonder because the state of the world at this point or 2025 or we're dealing with Russia, Ukraine, if Russia had joined NATO, do you think we'd be in the same mess we're in now? >> No. And the Russians asked to join NATO

[20:18] three separate times under three presidents. And three times we said, "Yeah, we we don't think that's a very good idea." But it actually was a good idea. The the whole world would look differently today. Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not deep into NATO, but I believe the NATO rules are obviously if you attack a NATO country, then all of NATO attacks you. But that would include any country within NATO attacking another country. NATO turned on them. Correctly.

[20:50] >> That's that's the big question because Greece and Turkey Turkey are always at odds. So what happens if Turkey attacks Greece? And we've come, you know, within hours a couple of times of Turkey attacking Greece. Remember, like you say in the charter, it's like section 40 says an attack on one is an attack on all. The only time that has ever ever been implemented was on 911 and so NATO had to come to the assistance of the United States because the United States had been attacked.

[21:22] But yeah, then what would have happened if if Russia is in NATO? >> Well, and the reason why I'm asking is I kind of feel like NATO was created as a bull work against Warsaw Pact, you know, like is >> well well it was created first before the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact was was in response to NATO. And most of those Warsaw packed countries didn't have popular support. I mean, among their own citizens. >> It didn't matter because they were all totalitarian, you know, communist

[21:52] governments. Um, and that's why it fell apart so quickly. That's why every Warsaw packed country except Russia, um, is a member of NATO today >> and Ukraine. >> Yeah. But it was part of the Soviet Union. I mean, yeah. >> Right. Oh, okay. Fair enough. Just saying. But, um, okay. Well, I it was just something I wanted to run by because I just sort of feel like because >> we never let them join or whatever, then it was just kind of like a a permanent

[22:22] belligerance because the whole point of NATO was to go against what >> Russia formerly was. >> Mhm. >> And imagine the trillions of dollars that we've spent unnecessarily uh in opposition to to the Russians. money that could have been spent on our own infrastructure, on medical care, on education. It's the the whole world would be a different place. Well, hopefully we can uh get to that at

[22:53] some point. It's um kind of a frustrating thing. Now, I wanted to ask another question. I get weird, you know, like I get sidetracked on different things because I was, you know, looking up. I saw New Yorker article on you and it was saying that you retired from the CIA in 2004 and I was like, >> how's that possible? >> I resigned. >> Okay. >> I don't know why so many journalists have said that I retired in 2004. I mean, I was 40 years old in 2004. I didn't retire.

[23:23] >> That That's what I thought to because >> I don't know why they do that. They always do that. Right. Well, and I I went, you know, I was looking it up and everything else. Well, but part of the reason is because, you know, Pete instructed me and he said, "I need to talk to you about um pardons and something that went down with you and I read a little bit and obviously an important factor of a pardon would be a obviously being able to carry a weapon, being able to vote, um but also being able to collect a pension. And I'm assuming that with your time with John

[23:55] Kerry, your time with the CIA, you and >> you you're collecting enough over the government area to to get a a pensionw worthy career. Can you tell me what went down with um this whole pardon situation? >> Well, there are several iterations. So, I had applied uh under the Obama administration. I knew I wasn't going to get it, but I have very, very strong

[24:26] support within the Greek American community. And there were three very important Greek Americans, two businessmen and an elected official. The two businessmen, well, one's passed away now, but are billionaires, were billionaires, and very close to uh to Joe Biden. So, I applied for the pardon at their recommendation and they said, "Let's go talk to Joe Biden."

[24:57] So, I had a package prepared. I have a letter signed by 70 former CIA officers asking Obama to pardon me. I had a letter written by the man who wrote the law that I was convicted of violating saying I should never have been charged with a crime in the first place. that this was not why he wrote the law. Um, a statement from my congressman asking for a pardon on the floor of the house and

[25:27] an op-ed from the Christian Science Monitor written by one senator Joseph R. Biden saying this law was unconstitutional and should never have been passed. So, I take the train to Wilmington. The Greeks drive down from New York and we meet with Biden and I give him the package and I said, "Mr. Vice President, if you could just weigh in with the president." This is like 4 days before the end of the Obama administration, right? So, it's uh it's January of 2017

[26:02] and he's like, "Well, you're so controversial and I'm not sure and you know the CIA hates you." And finally, one of the Greeks says, "Joe, we've been supporting you since 1972, and we've never asked for anything. This is not just for him. This is for the entire Greek American community." He says, "All right, I'll do it." I get on the train. I go back home. They go to the White House with Biden for dinner that night. I'm a nervous wreck. I stay up late. Finally, at midnight, they call

[26:34] me and they said, "You would have been so proud of Joe Biden tonight. He went to the mat for you." But halfway through his pitch, Obama put up his hands and said, "Guys, I'm just not going to do this. It's either him or it's Manning." And Manning got 35 years. And then that was it. So four days later, Trump becomes president. I had great support from the likes of of

[27:04] Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, Brian Kilme, all the usual people on on Fox News because remember it was it was Obama and Holder and Brennan that went after me. Peter Stro at the FBI put the cuffs on me. So all of their enemies are the ones that targeted me. The ones that targeted me targeted them later on. And so I applied for a pardon under Trump. The last day of Trump's first term,

[27:36] Tucker calls Tucker Carlson calls me and he said, "You got to come on the show again tonight. He's going to pardon Lil Wayne." I said, "Little Wayne?" This rapper, he pardons Little Wayne. I said, "Tucker, he's got to pardon me today. It's the last day." As it turned out, and I got this from a very reliable source, he was going to pardon me and Assange and Snowden. But then Mitch McConnell called and said, "If you pardon and Mitch McConnell

[28:07] doesn't know me, but he said, "If you pardon Snowden and Assange," he said, "I will not be able to control Senate Republicans, and they will vote to convict you because remember, the Democrats had impeached him on the House side." And so they dropped me. I went through the whole pardon thing over again with Biden, saying, "Remember me? You supported a pardon four years ago, but by then Biden was so demented that I couldn't even really get to him

[28:37] and they just passed me over. Now here I am for the fourth time with the same solid Republican support and I don't know if it's going anywhere. >> Wow. Um I was told that you might have been named a price by representatives of uh Rudy Giuliani. >> I had a friend who was close to Giuliani. >> What happened? >> And I I called him one day and I said I said, "Can you get to Giuliani for me? I

[29:08] want to ask for his help to get a pardon. He said, "Yeah, I can I can set up a a call." So, he sets up a call. I talked to to Giuliani's Major Domo and he says, "Well, as it so happens, we're going to be in Washington next week. Why don't we meet up at the at the Trump Hotel?" I said, "Great." I said, "I get off work at 2. What do you say 2:30?" He said, "No, Rudy's not really in good functioning shape by 2:30. We're going to have to do it earlier in the day. I said, "Fine." I took the day off. We

[29:40] met at noon. We we were sitting in in the lounge area at the Trump Hotel. And um it's Giuliani and two of his people and my attorney and me. My attorney is a serious guy. He used to be the deputy attorney general under Reagan. So, we sit there, shake hands with everybody. Nice to meet you. And Giuliani says, "Um, hey, you follow uh you follow uh football? How about the uh how about

[30:10] those uh those Jets?" I said, "Yeah, I follow football. I'm a Steelers fan. I'm from Pittsburgh originally near Pittsburgh. So, yeah, I love the Steelers, but yeah, the Jets are looking good this year." Ah, he says, "I'm a baseball fan, too. You like the Mets?" I said, "I like the Pirates as bad as they are, but yeah, I follow the Mets. We used to have a really good rivalry." thinking, "What is he talking about?" So, finally, I said, "Mr. Mayor, there's this issue of a pardon I wanted to talk to you about." And he goes, "Anybody know where the pisser is?" And he stands up and walks

[30:41] away. I said to his aid, "What just happened?" And he said, "You never talked to Rudy about a pardon. You talked to me about a pardon." And I talked to Rudy. I said, "All right, whatever." He says, "Rudy's going to ask you for $2 million." And I laughed. I said, ' 2 million? Why in the world? I said, 'First of all, I don't have $2 million. I'll never have $2 million, but secondly, why would I spend $2 million to recover a $700,000 pension?

[31:15] Does that make any kind of sense? And I said, look, I'm sorry to waste your time, but that's what that's what we're doing here. I looked at my attorney, he looked at me, we stood up, we left. That evening, I went to a book launch event at the Republican National Committee. A buddy of mine's a Republican and he wrote this book and whatever. So, I went up there and I ran into another whistleblower, a friend of mine who blew the whistle at TSA and he very innocently said to me, "How was your day today?" And I said, "Oh, listen

[31:46] to this. I'll tell you how my day was." So, I told him what I just told you. And he says, "That's a felony." And I said, "Oh, I know. I know." He's trying to sell pardons and he said, "Did you call the FBI?" I said, "The FBI doesn't give a [ __ ] about stuff like this." No, I didn't call the FBI. So, a couple of days pass and I get a call from Mike Schmidt at the New York Times. And I happened to be in my lawyer's office when he called and Schmidt says, "A little bird told me that uh Rudy Giuliani tried to extort $2

[32:19] million from you for a pardon." And I said, "Oh, that Robert." He was so upset when I told him. And Mike Schmidt says, "Um, have you spoken to the FBI?" And I said, "No, the FBI hasn't called me." And he said, "Well, your friend called the FBI and reported it as a crime." And I said, "I haven't gotten any call from the FBI." Mike says, "Would you be willing to go on the record?" And I said to my lawyer, "Am I willing to go on the record?" And he said, "Go on the record. You don't owe these people anything." So

[32:49] I said, "Sure, I'll go on the record." Well, it turns out Giuliani had asked four or five different people who were seeking pardons for $2 million each. So, the article ran front page above the fold on the following Sunday. I learned later from Giuliani's former assistant, Noel Duny, that when the story broke, Giuliani said that [ __ ] Kuryaku went public.

[33:21] Well, Giuliani told the New York Times, "I don't know who this man is. I never met this man. He made the whole thing up." So, Mike Schmidt called me back to get a a comment, a response, and I said, "He forgot that we took a picture together. before the meeting started. So I emailed the picture to the New York Times and it said Giuliani denied, denied, denied, denied. The New York Times has seen documentary proof that the meeting took place. So now Giuliani's broke and he's an

[33:53] outcast and he's banned from Fox and he's banned from Mara Lago and he owes a billion dollars or whatever it is to these women that he defamed and and Noel Duny is suing him for sexual assault and a whole bunch of other stuff. She she never got paid all the time that that she worked for him. Uh Giuliani's a wreck. His life spun out of control. Um, we know from his fourth divorce, from from the the discovery that his ex-wife leaked to the New York Times that he was a member of 16 country clubs, that he

[34:24] spent $10,000 a month on cigars and brandy or whatever it was that he scotch, whatever it was he was drinking. And so he needed those $2 million influxes to keep his lifestyle going. And it just didn't happen for him. >> So, just to be clear, it's very possible that he was freelancing. Oh, I think I think >> not Trump at all. >> Oh, no. No. I don't think it was Trump at all. No, I think that he was telling people that he could guarantee a pardon because some of the money was going to Trump. He didn't tell me that, but that's what I've heard. But I don't

[34:56] think Trump had any idea that this was happening. I think Giuliani was just trying to boogart the money. >> Okay. Well, that's a very significant, you know, point if Trump was involved or not involved. >> Yeah. No, no, not at all. Not at all. Okay. Do you mind my asking what the procedure is for somebody to get a pardon? I mean, we always hear about this and that. It's like, and you said I put together a package and thing. Do you mind breaking that down? I don't know if you've ever done that before, but >> I've never I have not I have not done

[35:26] that, but it's a great question. It's an important question because there's the official way and then there's the unofficial way. So the official way is you go to the website of the US pardon attorney and it gives you an option to click to click on for a commutation of sentence or a pardon. Now to apply for a pardon you have to be 5 years past the not just the end of your sentence but the end of whatever paper you have probation or parole or whatever it is 5

[35:58] years after the fact. All right. And you have to have shown remorse for whatever crime you committed. And you have to show that you're a a contributing functioning member of society. So then you can apply. Before we go too far, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but already little niggles are coming off of my head. Um, >> how would a preemptive pardon work on that? And then how am pardon like Jimmy

[36:29] Carter? That's the unofficial way. >> Well, I was going to say because Jimmy Carter also pardoned all the draft dodgers. And uh by the way, I think that that was within 5 years. >> Oh, yeah. >> Of there committing a crime. So >> that's right. >> Oh, okay. So, please continue. I just was pointing out a discrepancy. >> The bottom line there is the president can do anything he wants. >> Anything at all. He has constitutional authority to pardon anybody, anytime, anywhere for any crime, federal crime. So, the the official way is you go to the website, you fill out the form, the

[37:00] FBI does a background investigation, says, "Yeah, this is all true." And then the FBI um meets with your prosecutor and with your sentencing judge to get their opinion. They always say no. No pardon. >> Always. Just as a matter of of practice. And then they make >> So, you know what? They're like YouTube when they uh when they demonetize a video. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Say, "I appeal." Denied. >> Denied. That's it. And that's why, you know, there are thousands of pardon applications and commutation

[37:30] applications every year and almost nobody gets pardoned. Nobody who goes through the actual process gets pardoned because everybody always says, "No, no, no, no." You know, danger to society, whatever. Um, the US pardon attorney then makes the recommendation to the president. So, out of these 3,000 applicants, we recommend that these four, five people get pardoned. and then the president makes the final determination. That's the official way. The unofficial way is you fill out the form so you get a case number, but then you hire a lobbyist or

[38:03] you get yourself on the news all the time or you have some advocate who's close to the president or to the first lady or you get some powerful senator pick up the phone and call the president or the president, you know, reads in the paper, "Oh, this guy got screwed. I'm going to pardon him." or he issues a blanket pardon like Jimmy Carter did with the the Vietnam War draft dodgers or like Trump did with the January 6th protesters. So So >> or Biden did with the mass commutation

[38:34] >> of marijuana um convictions. >> Well, no death row. He mass commuted the death row to >> Yeah. Yeah. It was a mass commutation except for >> except for the Boston three the bos Yeah. Zarnv and and the kid that that went in and shot up the black church. Okay. >> South Carolina. >> Yeah, South Carolina. Right. >> I I forget his name. >> So, it's a very messy, ugly, secretive process. You never know where you stand. You just never know. >> So, you have to do it the right way just

[39:04] so you can get that number. So, >> you have to have the case number. Yes. >> Okay. >> You have to. >> Yeah. >> Prepare to be disappointed. Well, I mean, being in the government, the CIA, and working in the different areas, you probably expected that to a degree because >> my time in the military and whatever else, and you know, being around government contractors, I'm used to messy. >> I'm used to nothing being a direct path and the rules for the but not me and that kind of thing.

[39:34] >> Exactly. There's no fairness in this whole process. Not at all. There never has been. I mean, I shouldn't say there never has been. There are stories about Abraham Lincoln, for example, staying up late at night by candle light and and uh issuing pardons and commutations mostly of of soldiers uh Union soldiers who had gone awall because he he said that no one should be executed for cowardice.

[40:06] And so he would he would issue these things, you know, even without applications. See, and this is another thing. The office of the US pardon attorney when it was established in the in the 20th century was supposed to be housed in the executive office of the president at the old executive office building. It was supposed to be a a Chinese wall between DOJ and the US pardon attorney. And it's not. it's how's that DOJ and so you have all that

[40:38] undue influence coming from from prosecutors, US attorneys, you know, people that have their own their own positions on whether or not you deserve a pardon. But I I'll add one other thing. In my own case, um I applied when I when I got home from prison, I applied to have my voting rights reinstated in in Virginia. I live in Virginia and so I went online. It's the governor's you go to the governor's website and I filled out the form and I

[41:09] sent it in and um I don't know 3, four or five weeks passed and uh I hadn't heard anything back. So I just called the toll-free number and this guy answered and he said uh well let me look up your uh your application. And he goes, "Oh, oh, okay. Uh yes, uh it's being processed. uh just be patient and we'll be in touch shortly. It was kind of a funny response. About a week later, two weeks later, my

[41:40] doorbell rings at 7:00 in the morning and I was already up and sitting at the table having a cup of coffee. So, I go to the door, I open the door, and it's a courier and he has this big envelope, like an 11 by14 envelope, and it says office of the governor. So, I open it up and it's this big certificate with the the gold seal of the state of V, the Commonwealth of Virginia, and it's a pardon from the governor. I hadn't applied for a pardon.

[42:11] >> Okay. So, >> yeah. >> Well, that doesn't work well in a federal case, but >> No, but it was a very generous It was a very generous action >> that the governor had taken, and I said, "Are you kidding me? I pull it out. It's like beautiful. Like >> which governor, by the way? >> Terry McCauliff. >> McCauliff. Okay. >> Yeah. So I was like, "Okay." So at 9:00 I I walked over to the courthouse with my pardon. And um and I said, "I'd

[42:42] like to register to vote." Oh, she says, "Yeah, fill out this form." Well, there's a little box and it says, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" And I said, "Yes." "Have you had your voting rights reinstated?" I clicked yes. or I checked. Yes. So, she pulls me over to the side so nobody could hear and she whispers to me, "I see that you've checked the boxes. There's a man who handles cases like yours, but he's off today." I said, "Oh, no. This is the last day to register to vote um because

[43:13] the election is Tuesday." And she said, "We'll take care of it. You can vote on Tuesday." So, I get a call from the guy Monday morning saying, "I've approved your application to vote, so come on in tomorrow and vote." Very generous. Um, so I called the toll-free number again and I said, "Listen, I I know I'm not going to be able to get to the governor, but I just wanted to say thank you for

[43:43] this very generous uh act." I said, "The governor doesn't know me." And he said, "No, listen. I know your case." case. He said the governor actually does know you and he thought you were treated poorly and so he just on his own valition decided to issue you a pardon and he says I know that doesn't really help but he said it gives you back your right to vote and it reinstates your state gun rights and I said well you know from his lips to God's ears I still don't have my federal gun rights and he said I know

[44:13] it's symbolic but he wanted to do it so I sent a thank you note I'm sure he never you saw it, but I sent a thank you note saying, you know, I hope you run for president because this is the most generous thing anybody's ever done for me. >> And symbolically, I think it's still important like you've resubmitted the paperwork now, right? And I'm sure you included that. Like, yes, look, even the state governor saying, "Hey, >> this guy got screwed." And you know, I'll tell you what, when I was in

[44:43] prison, it was six weeks before I was released. I was allowed to call my wife every other day for 15 minutes. And I called her one day in December. This is December of 2014. And I said, "How's your day?" She said, "Great." I said, "Really? Why was it great?" And she said, "Because the Senate torture report was released today and it proved that everything you said was true." And John McCain got up on the floor of the Senate and said that John Kuryaku had provided

[45:14] a great national service. he said because without his revelations, the American people would never have known what the CIA was doing in their name. And so I got out of prison and I was out for like a week and I got a call from McCain's office and the guy says, "Senator McCain says, "Welcome home." And he wants to know what he can do to be helpful. I said, "Oh my god, thank you. I need my pension back." They

[45:45] confiscated my pension and I'm going to have to work until the day I die if I don't get it back. So what we did was we met and my attorney and I met with McCain's staff and and I'll add before before my arrest when I was working for Carrie, Carrie's office was right next door to McCain's. So every time I'd run into McCain, he would go out of his way to come and shake my hand. How are you? I'd say how are you senator? So good to see you again. and always very generous, shaking hands, patting me on the back.

[46:17] Carrie even said to me one time, "Why don't you and the cane get a room or something?" And I said, "No, no, he's he's serious. It's about the torture thing." So, so my attorney, we decided to do this absent a pardon cuz the Obama people, we I knew the Obama people weren't going to >> Hold on. One of the Obama people was Secretary of State Kerry. >> Yeah. Well, >> and he didn't stand up for you. I emailed Carrie and I asked him for his help to his personal email and he wrote me back three days later, four days later and he says, it was a very short

[46:47] email. He said, "Please do not ever attempt to contact me again." That's John Kerry. So what we ended up doing was we wrote we wrote a one paragraph amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act of 20 16. And it said that every American convicted of violating the Intelligence

[47:17] Identities Pro uh Protection Act between October 1st and October 31st of 2012 shall hereby have his pension reinstated. Okay. So, I'm the only American that qualifies. And the idea was we're gonna stick it in like page 1,535. >> Yeah. >> And then McCain got brain cancer >> and he died and we couldn't get it into the bill

[47:49] and that was the end of it. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, you're still out there fighting. Now, I think you told Pete that you had three, it could have changed by now, but um three of the FBI people or or an FBI person and two other people. It may not be FBI. I don't know what I heard. >> Three FBI. >> They were and they these were people who actually worked your case who have contacted you and said, "Hey, uh >> yeah, >> sorry, bro." >> Mhm. three people, two called my lawyer

[48:21] and then one emailed me directly and said that he's actually lost sleep over this over the years that the orders came from the very top that at the working level they didn't want to do this but they had no choice and that he was sorry that he played a role in what happened to me. >> It was it was generous but I mean >> Yeah, but it's kind of like that. >> It's kind of Yeah. >> hollow in a way. >> Yeah. Do you mind? And other than those people, obviously they're going to want to remain anonymous. Sure. Do you want

[48:51] want to name names of people at the top who have screwed you? You mentioned Stro. I mean, that's a >> Oh, I'm happy to name the names. >> I mean, these guys are criminals. Brennan, number one, Jose Rodriguez, the former deputy director for operations at the CIA. Uh, Eric Holder. In fact, Trump's uh former US attorney in Utah, Brett Tilman, said, and this is this was his quote, "The Kuryaku case was the template for Democratic part for the

[49:22] Democratic Party's policy of Lafair." The template. I was the first one that they targeted to see, can we can we wrap this guy up using Lawfair? And they did. And when they saw that it worked against me, they went after Trump. >> Mhm. And not just Trump, these process crimes, they went after Mike Flynn and Steve Bannon and Paul Maniffort and all different kinds of people. >> Roger Stone. >> Roger Stone raid his house at 6:00 in

[49:54] the morning with very grave crime. No. >> No. >> Raided Mara Lago. >> Yeah, they raided Mara Lago. Yeah. See, but they never they never expected Trump to to come out on top here. >> And now they're beginning to panic. And then you've got documentary evidence that the likes of Clapper and Comey and Brennan actually did commit crimes. The only worry that I have is on some of these crimes, we're bumping up against the statute of limitations. And so if charges are going to be filed,

[50:25] they've got to be filed soon. There's a there's a grand jury that's convened currently in Washington. I kind of wish that the grand jury had been convened in the Eastern District of Virginia, the espionage court, because they would be far more likely to indict. But I I hope they do the right thing and wrap these guys up because look, essentially what they were what what the plan was was to effect a coup. They were trying to deny Donald Trump the presidency despite the fact that he had

[50:56] legitimately defeated Hillary Clinton. You know, to paint someone as a Russian agent, it's not just defamatory, it's dangerous and they were trying to affect a coup. I have something that I've been wanting to do. A lot of people think I'm just stupid for for wanting this. They're like, "Oh, Justice Department, Justice Department, that's all that matters. I want there to be congressional investigation." >> Yeah. Real one. >> And and and you know, like the church

[51:27] committee and I mean, >> exactly. Can Why can we not drag Clapper and Brennan and and you talk about the statute of limitations, but well, contempt of Congress, that's fresh. If uh if they perjure themselves, that's fresh. And even if no ne never any charge ever happens, putting some sunlight on this would seem like a possibly good idea. Totally agree. But

[51:58] the problem is that there's a gigantic difference between the church and pike committees of 1975 and the Congress that we have today. It is so much more partisan. I mean, look at the the special whatever it was called weaponization whatever committee where the only Republican or Republicans were Swallwell and uh and Cheney. I mean, Republicans just wouldn't even participate.

[52:29] If if the decision were to be made to go after Democrats, what Democrats would participate? We need Sam Irvin. We need Howard Baker. We need Frank Church and and Otis Pike. And these these giants, Daniel Patrick Moyahan, these giants that served in the 1970s, they just don't exist anymore on Capitol Hill. >> Good point. If you watched the JFK hearings, I don't know if you remember that type of thing, but um >> carrying the HCSA.

[53:00] >> Oh, yeah. >> Compared to the late the drop this year, right? forget almost. It's hilarious because you have one side of the aisle who's actually asking questions. Of course, um getting Oliver Stone confused with Roger Stone. >> Oh my god, I saw that. Oh. Oh my god. >> It's like, oh, that's not the best choice in the world. But anyway, um comparing that to the um HCSA where I

[53:31] mean it was packed house. This is like an empty conference room. They they don't even stage it to make it look like it's a little bit more crowded. It just looks, you know, like all the congress people are sitting way back in their seats. There's all this space. It just >> it feels really like amateur hour and they and a lot of the questions being asked I think are not >> the best I've ever heard. >> Yeah. We just don't have intellectual giants on Capitol Hill like we used to. intellectual giants who who who

[54:03] weren't afraid to lead, you know, they would lead and then bring their constituents along with them. Now it's the reverse. They just pander to to to the extremes of their constituencies. >> All right. Well, I want to go the other direction now because everything has been kind of dark that we've been talking about and all these bad operators, bad characters that are, you know, saturating the government and it is really hard for me

[54:33] because like I'll interview different people um you know, like some FBI agents who are pretty good people. I mean, they're they're busy. They're, you know, busting up bank robbers that, you know, they're they're doing real work and everybody's gotten so cynical because the James Comeies of the world and all of that. Maybe you can help me by pointing out who are some heroes. Well, I'll say Tucker Carlson's a hero of mine. um he was liberated

[55:05] when he was pushed out of Fox News and he's able to go deep on issues that he feels strongly about. And I find myself agreeing I listen I I consider myself a lifelong leftist but I also believe that the ideological spectrum is not a straight line from the left to the right. It's a circle. It's a circle. Yeah. Or I I think it's a circle because it meets at one point. >> Well, I was thinking of it like a U, like a magnet, and that the magnet

[55:35] points attract all the psychos. >> I used to I used to believe that, but I don't anymore. >> I don't anymore. No, because I find myself strongly agreeing with people on the right on issues of civil liberties. Strongly. And government overreach. I don't want NSA collecting my data. It's not just illegal. It's a part of NSA's charter that they may not collect on US persons. That's American citizens or anybody in the country in a green

[56:06] card. And that's practically all they do. >> Well, that's a libertarianist view, too. >> Yeah. Well, the libertarian is traditionally view because that's kind of the bottom. So I I I think of it as um I guess I'm at the compass where you have a authoritarian top, libertarian bottom and it's kind of like a you like everything goes to authoritarian over time and that's why I was saying the magnet with a freak. So I I just wanted to clarify because all these things when you design them it's helpful to have a good point.

[56:37] But yeah, I think that there's been a flip on that. >> I think Tucker is somebody we should take very seriously, very seriously. and he's talking about issues that that most in the mainstream just don't even want to approach. But he's getting the truth out there. You know, he's not afraid of them. A lot of other people are. Most people in the mainstream are. So I I like and trust Tucker very very much. And I find myself agreeing with other people. What

[57:08] about in the government though? I meant, you know, like it's like is every FBI agent you've come across bad or every CIA or were there, you know, that's I was kind of um going on that there's got to be some good operators. >> Yeah, I can't mention their names. >> Oh, yeah. No, no, I can't do that. But yes, there there are there are good people out there. In fact, the vast majority of people at the CIA are very bright, very patriotic people who want nothing more than to serve the country. But leadership, you know, where the

[57:39] decisions are made about who lives and who dies with no real oversight. There's there's literally nobody on the House or Senate intelligence oversight committees that I have any respect for at all. Nothing. Because they don't oversee. They just nod and say, "Okay, do anything you want." >> Wow. Interesting. Interesting. Well, I kind of figured that from what I've seen, you um started at the left or you were kind of left or

[58:10] whatever, which >> and I agree with you. I think that a lot of those labels are outdated and >> um you know, there's the whole quote southern strategy, >> right? >> Uh where this flipped, that flipped, it's um people who believe in the constitution or they don't believe in the constitution. There's a corporatist versus non-corporatist. I I'm I don't know. Maybe you see eye to eye with populism to a point. >> I do. >> I don't. >> To a point. >> Yeah. That's kind of I think I think that's where things line up because a

[58:41] lot a lot of this I think is really Trump. >> Trump brought a lot out in my opinion. >> Yes. >> With MAGA and and by then I'm not just saying no Trump is a cult or this and that. I mean a lot of people who are supposed Bernie bros, right, went to Trump. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the populism. Yeah, you know, I disagree with MAGA populists on some issues. I think I think healthcare is a human right. Everybody should have healthcare and it should be as close to free as possible,

[59:12] right? That should be from the taxes that we pay. We pay astronomical taxes. So rather than spend a trillion dollars on DoD, a lot of that money should go to healthcare. At the same time, Trump is right about the border. We we just can't just, you know, let everybody in and and say, "Well, we'll we'll deal with the fallout later." No, there are processes. Now, right before the 911 attacks, George W. Bush had negotiated a deal with the Mexicans where we would legalize many of the workers here and

[59:43] give them 9month work visas. So they would cross the border legally, they would work there nine months, they would pay federal and state taxes, and then go back to Mexico, have the visa renewed, and then repeat the same thing that the next year. That agreement was never implemented because 9/11 just threw a wrench into everything. But it was a great idea. >> Well, we kind of have that now. I've been in arguments. No, I No, I've been in arguments with people like if you go to Disney World,

[1:00:14] >> that's different. >> I I understand it's different program, but I'm using as a template. Yeah. You see, you know, badges from all around the world and these are legal employees and there are some degree of taxes paid. >> I think that that agreement a lot of people probably spiked it in the back end because the business owners often don't want to pay the federal taxes on the employee. It's cheaper to pay under the table essentially cash on the side. That's right. >> And I think that, >> you know, Mitt Romney, I'm not a big fan

[1:00:44] of, but I do agree with the idea of if you track it and you track the employer, you say, "Hey, >> um, if you hire somebody and we catch you, you're going to pay a penalty of like 25,000, 50,000, you know, a heavy enough penalty to where it's no longer cost effective. At the same time, maybe reduce the federal taxes on those visas, you know, so there could be kind of a little bit of a balance to where you're like, okay, we understand you want to pay as much taxes on them, but let's go somewhere in the middle. And I think

[1:01:16] something like that could work. Maybe Trump could do it. I don't know. I I I'm not sure. But that's a conversation. Trump's a dealmaker and so maybe maybe he can do it. >> It would be an interesting legacy. Definitely. Now, uh we're about out of time. I always like to ask one last question with you. It's like God only knows what I'm going to get. Um because it's you have such a buried career. And what I always like to ask is what is the one question I should have asked you and I neglected to.

[1:01:48] >> Wow. That's that's a tough one, man. >> I have an alternative. Well, you know, the the one question that people do ask me that I still cannot answer >> is how do we affect change and how do we solve some of these problems? And I I always give a lame response that, you know, we've got to take to the streets and we've got to write and we have to speak and we have to lobby and but we do all that >> and things just seem to get worse and

[1:02:19] more partisan. Have you ever heard of Daryl Davis? >> Sure. >> It's a hero of mine. >> Maybe he has the answer. >> I hope >> he talks to people. >> Just talks to people >> one-on-one. Yep. >> And goes to where they are. >> Mhm. >> And just keeps talking. And because he sets up a scenario where they hate all black people, >> but there's a problem. They like Daryl.

[1:02:51] >> Yeah. >> So they hate all black people except for Daryl. >> Except for Daryl. Now it breaks down >> the paradigm, right, >> of that. So I'm wondering if instead of marching and yelling and screaming, >> maybe everybody should have a coffee. >> See, that's a that's a lovely idea. Actually, I met Daryl in Berlin over coffee. >> Oh, wow. Yeah, we were both speakers at an event in Berlin back in like 2020,

[1:03:24] maybe 2021. It was co I remember. Um, and I was like, "Wow, this guy makes a lot of sense." Yeah, good guy. Yeah, he's kind of a hero of mine. Been trying to get him on forever, but we'll see if it'll ever happen. >> Good luck, >> John. Thank you so much. This has been really great. My pleasure. appreciate the information about things that I'd never know about. >> Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you.
