Title: John Kiriakou on Jeffrey Epstein: Was He a Spy, and Did He Really Die by Suicide
Show: The Carlos Watson Podcast
Date: 2026-02-17
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdbi6wUsDV4
Duration: 36:46

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[00:00] Well, the truth is [music] that the CIA has the highest divorce rate in all of government because you are trained to lie and you lie all day every day and a lot of guys can't [music] turn it off when they go home at night. Well, I was one of 14 people asked if I wanted to be trained in the use of what they called enhanced interrogation techniques. I was the only one of the 14

[00:30] who said [music] no. Besides being immoral and unethical, I thought it was illegal. It was illegal. Bush is saying, "No, we don't torture." He looks in the camera, "We do not torture." It's all a [music] lie. Well, I I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official policy, and that the policy had been personally approved by the president [music] himself. The president was a bald-faced liar. One of my former bosses called me and said, "You know the shit's going to hit the

[01:00] fan now, [music] right?" And I said, "I know. I'm ready for it." Yeah, everybody comes out of prison with PTSD, everybody. I believe very strongly that he was an an Israeli access agent. Did you work for the CIA? No way. You were a good liar? I think I am a good liar, yeah. Hey guys, it's Carlos Watson. I've come to Washington, D.C. to have one of the most important conversations I've ever had. It's with former top spy John

[01:30] Kiriakou and he dishes on everything. Who actually killed President Kennedy, whether or not torture's still going on, and whether Jeffrey Epstein was a spy. You don't want to miss this. He [snorts] is back. Emmy award-winning journalist. [music] He's interviewed presidents, rebels, icons, thinkers. He is Carlos Watson. Take or so take me all the way back. So, you grew up where? I grew up in New Castle, Pennsylvania. Outside of Pittsburgh? Yeah, it's about 45 minutes

[02:00] north of Pittsburgh. Little quiet town? Very quiet, dying, dead now. Coal mine. And that was pretty much it. When I was nine, I told my parents that I wanted to be a spy when I grew up. And they thought that was kind of cute. They bought me walkie-talkies and disappearing ink, you know, little kid stuff. But then when I was 16, and I remember this very specifically, my dad and I were driving down Old Plank Road past Fraser's Pond. And I said, "Dad, I've been thinking

[02:30] about it a lot and I decided I want to be a spy in the Middle East." And he's like, "Ah, still with the spy? Can't you be like a dentist or something?" And I said, "I I want to be a spy and I want to I want to live in the Middle East." He's like, "Why? Have you ever been to the Middle East?" And I said, "I love their culture and their heritage and and their poetry and their food and the sound of their language. I I just want to immerse

[03:00] myself in it." So, I only applied to George Washington University um because they were one of three schools in the country that had a Middle Eastern Studies program. And so, um my dad got an application to Pitt, University of Pittsburgh, where he got his Ph.D. and he said, "They have a terrific Soviet Studies program and and you can learn to speak Russian." I said, "I don't want to learn to speak Russian. I don't care about Russia." I said, "I I want to I want to go to

[03:30] like Egypt and Saudi Arabia and Oman, you know?" So, I never sent in the Pitt application. I only applied to GW and he said, "What if you don't get in?" I said, "Oh, I'm going to get in." And I did. And then I got my bachelor's degree in Middle Eastern Studies, but my specific concentration was Islamic theology. I studied I I hit the sweet spot at GW because But you went into all this you're telling me knowing you were going to be

[04:00] a spy. You're you're saying it the way that kids know they want to be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer from when you were not and because of a movie or TV show or like what happened? &gt;&gt; No. Um I don't know. My brother and I used to go around the neighborhood with the walkie-talkies like reporting on what the neighbors were doing, right? And then we would write notes to ourselves. But I do remember we went to my grandparents' house for Christmas 1975, so I was 11. And when we got there, my dad said, "Did you see or my grandfather says, "Did you

[04:30] see the news?" My dad says, "What?" He said, "They killed a CIA man in Athens." And my dad said, "No, I didn't see that." And I immediately perked up and I said, "What do you mean? What happened?" And he said, "There's some some group, they killed the CIA man in Athens." And my grandfather said, "He must have been spying on Greece." And my dad said, and I even today I think, "How did my dad know that?" But my dad said, "Oh, no, Dad, we have CIA people all around the world and

[05:00] they work with those governments. He probably wasn't spying on Greece." And he wasn't. Um but I was like, I was so excited like, "That's what I want to do." And then 30 years later, I'm in Greece working on the 17 November Task Force to try to find the killers of Station Chief Richard Welch. And here's where the dream becomes real. The boy gets his shot. But dreams in the intelligence world come with a price.

[05:30] And and so and so how good a spy were you? I'll tell you my station chief's words rather than my own. I'm very proud of this. He pulled me aside one day and he said, "I've been the agency for 25 years and I've made nine quality recruitments. I remember every single one of them." He said, "You've been here for 2 years and you've recruited five people. Badasses. Terrorists. He said, "You have a knack for this."

[06:00] And I told him, "I have never in my life been so happy and fulfilled in a job as I am here." Really? And why? What What about it was fulfilling? I don't know. A &gt;&gt; [clears throat] &gt;&gt; A couple of little things. Every single day it was something different. I remember telling my then girlfriend, who became my second wife, I remember telling her, "I can't wait to get to work in the

[06:30] morning. I can't wait to see what I've missed from overnight." Um I remember How long did that last for? Because that is a very special thing and I've I think I've only had that like once or twice in life and it wasn't actually work. It was summer school in third grade when I had two great friends and I couldn't wait to get to summer school because I thought that with Peter and Daniel something magical could happen that day. But I haven't had that very often. I don't think most

[07:00] people have. &gt;&gt; No, I think most people have. &gt;&gt; long did you have that? &gt;&gt; That lasted for 15 years for me. So So, for 15 years you were fired up to go to work. &gt;&gt; Yeah, I remember I remember I was at the agency 8 months and it's August 2nd, 1990. The Iraqis have just invaded Kuwait 4 hours earlier. I get to the office early and my boss says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to go to the White House." I said, "Cool. I've never been to the White House." I mean, as a tourist I had, but

[07:30] I'd never been there like for business. We get in a car. It's about 7:00 in the morning. Drive to the White House. This Marine is there at the door, the West Wing. He escorts us in straight into the Oval Office. There's the president, the vice president, the national security adviser, the CIA director, and then my boss and me. The president says, "Gentlemen, please sit." So, we all sit. President and the vice president are in these really comfortable like wingback chairs. The national security adviser and and

[08:00] the CIA director are in these like less comfortable-looking like dining room chairs. And my boss and I are on the couch. So, we're sitting there and I'm looking around and I remember saying to myself, "My friends would never believe me if I told them where I was right now. Never believe me." So, the president says, "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at me. And it took me a second and I said,

[08:30] "Oh, um Mr. President, as you know, Iraqi troops I have chills right now thinking of it, just remembering it. I said, "Iraqi troops crossed the Kuwaiti border uh at 2:00 in the morning. They seized the entirety of Kuwait. The royal family has fled to Saudi Arabia, you know, blah blah blah blah." And he says, "Do we know who is in charge in Kuwait right now?" I said, "Yes, sir, we do. The Iraqis made an announcement that Dr. Ahmed Khatib uh is now the occupation

[09:00] governor of Iraq." "Do we know anything about him?" I said, "Yes, sir." I had actually written an article about him a month earlier just because he was interesting to me. I said, "Yes, sir. He's a medical doctor. He hates the royal family because his mother was a slave uh in the household of the royal family. They had slavery until 1955 in the uh on the Arabian Peninsula. So, I said, "She's a Sudanese slave. Uh to

[09:30] sort of make up for it. Once slavery ended, they sent Ahmed to the American University of Beirut. He trained there as a doctor. But his college roommate was George Habash. And together they founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." And the vice president says, "Jesus Christ!" Like that. And the president just goes like this and he says, "Gentlemen, thank you. That'll be enough. I need to think about this. Well, later that afternoon, Margaret

[10:00] Thatcher famously now called him. He genuinely didn't know what to do. And you're talking about Papa Bush? Papa Bush. Yeah. And she said, "George, now's not the time to go wobbly." Next thing you know, we have six aircraft carrier battle groups on on their way to the Gulf, quarter of a million ground troops, and we liberated Kuwait February 1991. Wow. Wow. And and you played a role in

[10:30] that at How were you 30 yet? &gt;&gt; I was 26. And and did you Was there any part of you that's like, I shouldn't be here. I don't really know &gt;&gt; my god. &gt;&gt; what I'm saying. &gt;&gt; Oh, everybody has imposter syndrome. All of us did. I remember thinking, you know, why me? Who am I? I'm just some guy from Pennsylvania. And here I am sitting with the president, telling the president what to do? So so so so so why you? I mean I mean

[11:00] like if real talk, like like like like why at 26 were you sitting in there talking about war? I am the luckiest guy in the agency. Seriously, people tell me all the time, "Oh my god, you're such a great storyteller." Thank you. Yes, maybe I am, but I'm also incredibly lucky. I found myself in these historic situations over the years. Historic.

[11:30] And uh I've been able to vocalize them. For 15 years, [music] John Kiriakou loved his work, but then came the day that changed his life, 9/11. Like I know that torture and the question around torture ends up becoming a place where you you you raise your hand and where you object. And I know that that ultimately metastasized, but just give us a version of that for people who don't know the story. Well, I was one of 14 people asked if I wanted to be trained in the use of what they called

[12:00] enhanced interrogation techniques. I was the only one of the 14 who said no. I believed it was illegal. Besides being immoral and unethical, I thought it was illegal. It was illegal. It was clearly illegal. Any can read the law that we wrote, the the Federal Torture Act of 1946. Anybody can read the the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Cruel and Inhumane Treatment. And I mean it it doesn't get any clearer clearer than that. Take me Take me

[12:30] through torture. So you're one of 14 people who they ask they they ask, "Do you want to get trained in this?" And you're like, "No, it's illegal." Take Take me. Yeah. Buddy of mine in the Counterterrorism Center who happened to be a psychiatrist, MD, PhD, and a Brigadier General in the Army. And we go to the same church, we're in the same men's group. He said to me one day, "Buddy, you know You know they call you the human rights

[13:00] guy behind your back." And I said, "Yeah, I know." And he said, "You know that's not a compliment, right?" And I said, "Steve, I'm right and they're wrong. And I'm comfortable with my position." Well, that was not the popular position to take. And so they kind of squeezed me out, but I had done so well in Pakistan that I became the executive assistant to the Deputy

[13:30] Director for Operations. So um my career just continued to go straight up. So that was a big deal though to raise your hand on a question of principle. &gt;&gt; was the only one. And you And your career still keeps going well? Because I had a rabbi who My dad My dad always says that My dad always says you don't need a mentor, you need a rabbi or an angel. That's it. Yeah. He sat above the guys making these torture decisions.

[14:00] And he said, "Don't worry about it." He said, "You did the right thing." He called it a slippery slope. He said, "You know how these guys are. Somebody's going to kill a prisoner and then they're going to go to they're going to go to prison." And what exactly were they doing? Like I've heard the word waterboarding, but like for someone who again has never been in the room. Okay, so let's say you are laying on this slab of of granite right here, but it's slightly elevated so your feet are a little bit higher than your than your head. Um they'll wrap your your face and head

[14:30] in material, a towel, you know, whatever. Tie you down so you can't move, and then pour water on your face. So water gets in your mouth, you start to drown. W- With In the case of Abu Zubaydah, he actually did drown. His heart stopped. He had to be revived so they can torture him more. What is that? That's who we want to be. Right? Ronald Reagan said we're a shining city on a hill.

[15:00] We're this shining beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. Are we really? But I know some people and I'm assuming Dick Cheney types came to you and said, "Come on, John. Cut the shit." And I said I said, "If you want to be for torture, knock yourself out, but you have to change the law because the law is clear. We executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American POWs in the Second World War.

[15:30] That was a death penalty crime. In January of 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photograph of an American soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner. Uh Robert S. McNamara was the Secretary of Defense. He ordered an investigation. That soldier was arrested. He was convicted of torture and sent to Leavenworth for 20 years. But then in 2002, nah nah, it's fine. It's all legal. But but but but but but but but but help people who are at home

[16:00] cuz here's what they're hearing. They're hearing we got bombed in multiple places. Um they could do it again and they want to do it again. Um they've got all sorts of weaponry that we don't know about and it could happen at an airport, it could happen at a school, could happen anywhere. And so if these guys over here have to do whatever they have to do in order to get the information to stop more people from getting hurt, let them do it and let's not pretend that the world is a fair or easy place. They got to do whatever they've got to

[16:30] do. And And so what do you say to that? Like in communist China, you mean? Or in the Soviet Union? I don't want to live in that society. We're a nation of laws, and if you don't like the law, we have constitutional mechanisms by which to change it. You know, don't just don't don't hide. Be proud that you like torture and you want to torture people. Be proud that you're one of the fathers of a torture program because it's going to be in their obituaries. Does torture work? No.

[17:00] See, and that's the biggest thing. Even if you think, "Well, you know, these guys are really bad. They mean us harm. They're murderers, mass murderers." Okay, fine. It doesn't work. That's why, you know, after I left the agency, I went to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I was the senior investigator there. And I w- I was working for John Kerry, and his office in the Russell Senate Office Building was directly next to John McCain's. And every single time McCain would see me, he would go out of

[17:30] his way to come and shake my hand and say, "Hi, John. How are you?" I'd say, "I'm great, Senator. How are you doing? Good to see you again." And finally Kerry said to me one day, "Why don't you and McCain get a room or something?" And I said, "No." I said, "We have a connection over torture because he knows that I'm right. He knows because he lived it. They tortured him and he gave them all They said, "Who are the people in your, you know, battalion or platoon or whatever?" And then he just named the, you know, offensive line of the 1964

[18:00] Green Bay Packers. So then, you know, when people that we're torturing give us this meaningless information, we bog down analysts for months trying to get through it, what's nonsense, what's real, you know, what's a half-truth because they're going to tell you anything they think you want to hear just to get you to stop torturing them. So when people tell us that they did get real stuff for some of these top guys, you're saying that that's

[18:30] &gt;&gt; It's &gt;&gt; That they did not get actionable FBI got the actionable intelligence, and the way they did it was by saying, "Would you like a cup of coffee? If you're really good, you tell me what I want to know, I'll let you write a letter to your mom and dad. Would you like a cigarette or an orange?" And you establish a rapport with people and treat them with respect, and the next thing you know, you can't shut them up. Even seasoned hardcore Especially seasoned hardcore terrorists because

[19:00] they know that the gig is up. So they're I I said this to Abu Zubaydah. I said, "Listen, I am the nicest guy that you're going to meet in this experience. My colleagues are not nice like I am. You know that your life is over. So what's left of it, it can be easy or it can be terrible. It's up to you." What do you think about [music] torture? Should that be used

[19:30] at all? How do you feel about that? I mean it depends on the severity of what they've done. Um are you talking about like torture to get information out? Torture to get information out. I mean oh yeah, I mean if they have some valuable information that, you know, Yeah, it depends on the cruciality of the information that might be needed. &gt;&gt; Now if they like, you know, when they like, I don't know, take something like take something and steal something, now I don't think someone should be tortured but I mean if they're a a high value you know high value person they have a lot of information that we need to take down a terrorist or

[20:00] something like that I think that yeah it would actually be you know like it just depends on how far they're willing to go. I mean broadly I would say no but I'm sure there's a [music] case I could think of where a form of torture would fit this certain crime or whatever but overall I think we should steer away from it. Yeah. So how do you end up in jail? How do you cuz we're not talking about 30 40 years ago we're talking about you know post Martin Luther King Jr. and I have a dream you're talking about

[20:30] you know post Vietnam moral conscience post Muhammad Ali so so how do you how do you end up in jail? How is that possible? Brian Ross of of ABC News called me and said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah. I said that was absolutely untrue. I was kind with Abu Zubaydah. I was the only person. Did he really have her you think he was bullshitting you? Abu Zubaydah. &gt;&gt; No he had a source. Okay. I ended up going to work for Brian at ABC. I was the counterterrorism consultant at ABC

[21:00] for 3 years. He was telling the truth. Okay. So he said well you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself. I had never spoken to a journalist before. I I didn't know that was an old trick that they use. So the Red Cross Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch had all come out with papers with studies saying the CIA's got a torture program. And they kept saying no no no there's no torture. Bush is saying no we don't torture. He looks in the camera we do not torture. It's all a lie.

[21:30] So I called Brian I said I'll give you your interview. And I decided whatever he asks me I'm going to tell the truth. Well I I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners that torture was official policy and that the policy had been personally approved by the president himself. The president was a bald-faced liar. You said that? &gt;&gt; Yeah. And the president said the next day it was kind of funny to me. He said I don't know this man. I've not met this man. I don't know why this man would

[22:00] throw me under the bus. And was it true did you know W? No I had never met him. But he was a war criminal. So the FBI began investigating me the very next day the day after the Did did you know that they were that by virtue of you saying that that that was going to happen? Like had you been in the apparatus long enough? And so why did you do it? Did you have a &gt;&gt; Because I was right. They were criminals. They were breaking the law. We are either going to be a

[22:30] nation of laws or we're not we're going to be a nation of chaos. And I don't want to be the citizen of a country that exists in a state of chaos. One of my former bosses called me and said you know the shit's going to hit the fan now right? And I said I know I'm ready for it. And then a retired deputy director of the CIA emailed me. I saved the email as a souvenir. And he said you've chosen a difficult road.

[23:00] I'm glad somebody did. I only wish I had had the courage to do it myself. So they investigated me for a year and the Justice Department determined that because we have a law in this country saying that it is illegal to classify a crime and torture is a crime that I hadn't committed any crime. Three weeks later Barack Obama becomes president and a couple of weeks after

[23:30] that John Brennan becomes the deputy national security adviser for counterterrorism. John and I always hated each other. And he was one of the fathers of the torture program. He was the executive director of the CIA when they came up with it. He was the number three in the CIA. He sent a memo to Eric Holder the new attorney general saying charge him with espionage. And Holder wrote back and said my people don't think he committed espionage. And Brennan wrote back and said charge him

[24:00] anyway and make him defend himself. They investigated me for 3 more years tapped my phones intercepted my emails followed me everywhere I went for 3 years. &gt;&gt; You were aware of this? I was not. I thought it was over cuz we got a declination letter from DOJ saying we found no crime you're free to go. &gt;&gt; But hold on you're a super sophisticated guy you followed people yourself. &gt;&gt; I was an instructor in surveillance. And you weren't aware that they were following you for 3 years? They were that good? Not around my own house. It's just I wasn't looking for it. Overseas I

[24:30] was constantly looking in my side view mirrors constantly not in Arlington Virginia. &gt;&gt; And you didn't have any friends whispering to you say hey John Nobody said a word. So they arrested me in January of 2012 charged me with five felonies including three counts of espionage which can carry the death penalty I might add. And um they waited until I went bankrupt from legal fees and then they dropped the espionage charges. I hadn't committed espionage.

[25:00] Telling a news that the CIA's committing crimes that's not espionage. So how do you end up inside though? How do you &gt;&gt; Because they told me that they had dropped the charges without prejudice and if I didn't take a plea they had to save face. If I didn't take a plea to a lesser charge they were going to recharge me with espionage. If I'm convicted of espionage what am I looking at? And they said 12 to 18 years. Take the deal. One of my

[25:30] a little angry with me and he right in my face and he said you know what your problem is? Your problem is you think this is about justice and it's not about justice it's about mitigating damage. Take the deal. So I took the deal. In retrospect did you do the right thing? &gt;&gt; Yeah. You should have taken the &gt;&gt; I had five kids. You should have taken the deal. &gt;&gt; Absolutely. Because You can't win. They have a literally unlimited budget. They charged me in a federal court where

[26:00] no national security defendant has ever won a case and overall the DOJ according to ProPublica wins 98.2% of its cases. Yeah. That's crazy and most Americans don't know that. &gt;&gt; Yeah. You don't have a chance. And so what was prison like for you for a for a former CIA officer? &gt;&gt; Groundhog Day. I was I was lucky in that I used my CIA training to stay safe. I made strategic alliances from the minute I walked

[26:30] through the door. Was there a chance you would not have been safe? Oh yeah. Really? People are generally pretty stupid in prison and CIA FBI you're all cops to them. And if you're a cop you're going to get a beat down. So you get out and you're a normal healthy person or No I you know this is the thing about being released from prison. You think you can step back into your life again and you can't. Your life is never going to be the same. Because because you're not the same.

[27:00] You know everybody comes out of prison with PTSD everybody. I can't tell you how many times I woke up in the middle of night having the same dream that it's count time and I find myself outside the prison and I have to figure out how to get back in to be in my bunk in time for count time or they're going to send me to solitary. And I can't figure out how to get back inside. I I dreamed for 2 years after I got out. But then you know it wears off and you start thinking about

[27:30] patching together a career and my marriage didn't survive it but um Sorry. Yeah yeah me too. Thank you. But uh Who are you to who are you today? You know I I like who I am. I'm I'm not perfect. Um I can be a a judgmental Um but on this one issue I was right and they were wrong. The the

[28:00] director of counterterrorism at the CIA then the night before I went to prison tweeted at me. And he said don't drop the soap haha with a laughing emoji. He he tweeted that? And I gave myself an hour or two to calm down and then I tweeted back at him and I said Jose I am on the right side of history and you are not. And then I went to prison the next morning. Is it the pressure of cuz people like me only get to see it on

[28:30] TV or in the movies. Is it is that job that pressurized meaning that if as a couple you hadn't had the kind of heavy duty job you had could you guys have worked through it or does that job do such damage to marriages and and then you also it shakes your emotions so that when you do come to a mountain like that you can't get over it? No that's that's a good question and I'll I'll answer it

[29:00] by telling you a story. So when I was in Pakistan I was the chief of counterterrorism operations. Extraordinarily high high stress high threat job. And the hours were ridiculous. Like if if you worked only 12 hours a day people would want to know you feeling okay? Like what's what's the problem right? So I would get in around 7:00 in the morning thinking I'm going to work until 8:00 or 9:00 anyway. So I'd get in at 7:00 in the morning. We had something

[29:30] called a trunk line where the unclassified phones in the office were connected to a Washington exchange. So even though I'm in Pakistan I've got a 202 number and I I can dial a 202 number like a local call. So, I would get in before everybody else and I would always call my then girlfriend, my post-divorce girlfriend, who became my second wife. She was a senior CIA officer. So, um

[30:00] I would always end our conversations by saying, "Okay, love you. Mwah." and hang up. And one of the old-timers, there were seven old men who worked for me. They were all like very senior senior intelligence service level officers. All of them had been at least director of Near Eastern Operations. One of them had been the deputy director of the CIA. And they all volunteered to come back as contractors after 9/11 just for patriotic reasons. But if you're a contractor, you can't have a management position. So, they worked for me, which

[30:30] is That must have been interesting. I learned more from those guys in 6 months than I learned in the rest of the entirety of my career. But anyway, one of them heard me finish the call and hang up. And he says, "So, are there wedding bells in the future?" And I said, "Oh, I don't know. I just got divorced and I'm kind of afraid of being a two-time loser." And he says, "Two-time loser?

[31:00] Jim, how many times have you been married?" He says, "Four for me." "Dave, how many times have you been married? I got five." "Bill, how many times you've been married? Three." And he says, "And I got four. Don't worry about being a two-time loser. It comes with the job. Well, the truth is that the CIA has the highest divorce rate in all of government because you are trained to lie and you lie all day every day and a lot of guys can't turn

[31:30] it off when they go home at night. &gt;&gt; [music] &gt;&gt; Bob Kennedy told me a story that just sticks right here in the front of my head. He said on November 22nd, 1963, that terrible day, his mother picked him up from school early. He was in sixth or seventh grade. She picked him up from school early and brought him back home. They lived in McLean, Virginia at a house that they called Hickory Hill.

[32:00] So, the Kennedys were very very close to the CIA director and his wife, John McCone. And Mrs. McCone had died of breast cancer 6 months earlier. And the Kennedys were worried about Director McCone. They were worried that he was going to hurt harm himself. And so, they invited him to dinner every single night, 7 days a week. And after dinner, he and Bobby Kennedy Sr. would go for a swim.

[32:30] So, when Bob Jr. and his mom get to the house, he said he got out of the car. His dad and Director McCone were standing in the driveway. And when he walked past them, he heard his father say, "Tell me your people didn't do this." And McCone said, "I don't know who did it." He didn't say, "Of course my people didn't do it." He said, "I don't know who did it." And I think that what with what we know now, I think it's safe to assume that there were elements of the CIA. It was not an

[33:00] official formal CIA policy, you know, XV kill the president. I think that there there were elements of the CIA uh that were probably involved. And I'll add one other thing. When I was stationed in Pakistan, the oldest of the old-timers that I worked with was this legendary officer. To tell you the truth, when I got there, I didn't get his last name. So, I only called him Gene. Hi John, this is Gene. Gene, this is John. I said, "Hi Gene, nice to nice

[33:30] to know you. Good to work with you." And I was there for weeks until somebody said, I asked a question and somebody said, "Ask Gately." I said, "Who's Gately? Gene." I said, "Gene is Gene Gately?" He said, "Yeah, who did you think he was?" I said, "The commander of the Bay of Pigs operation is working for me." And he said, "Yeah." So, we all lived in the same guest house. It was a very small guest house. So, we would have breakfast together, go to the office, have dinner together.

[34:00] So, I went up to him and I said, "Gene, you're Gene Gately? You commanded the Bay of Pigs?" And he says to me, "Fucking Kennedy. We could have won that thing." And that was the very first time I ever saw that kind of that flash of anger. And I thought, "Oh, I I understand 1963." Do you think Jeffrey Epstein, he was a spy? Yes.

[34:30] Say more. I don't know. I think there's not a ton of evidence, obviously, but I know like he was close [music] with uh who Barack was visiting him a lot. Um you know, just Prince Andrew. Like he was involved with every country. Who would Why would he not be a spy? And like he was involved with just all the elites, politicians. He didn't even really have like qualifications [music] or anything for that really, you know? So, I think it was definitely some level spy and Ghislaine Maxwell's [music] father, you know, worked for the Mossad. So. Yep. There's that. Yep. All right. What about Epstein? What do you think about

[35:00] Epstein? I believe very strongly that he was an an Israeli access agent. Did he work for the No way. Why do you say no way? &gt;&gt; To who? To spy on whom? The CIA's job is to collect foreign intelligence. What foreign intelligence did he have? He's spying on Bill Clinton and Bill Gates and Prince Andrew? That's the Israelis. Did he commit suicide? I believe he did. You really believe he did? &gt;&gt; did. People don't realize that in the Bureau of Prisons,

[35:30] everybody has his head up his ass. The cameras never work. The guards are always sound asleep. This happens all the time. These suicides, they happen like literally every day in American prisons. Every day. You know, when the only qualifications to be a prison guard are you have to be working on a GED or better and no felony convictions, you know, you get what you pay for. Last question. Are you a good liar? I think I am a good liar. Yeah. Why?

[36:00] Why am I a good liar? Because deep down I believe we're the good guys. And lying in service of my country was something that I I became good at. Hey guys, it's Carlos Watson. Thank you so much for helping me build this new podcast. [music] I love what we're doing here. I'm so proud of the team. Um got to ask you for your support. Got to ask you to consider heading over to Patreon and helping us really move this forward. [music] Whether you can do $10, 25, 50, whatever

[36:30] you can do, please know that we'll always be grateful and we'll never let you down.
