Title: John Kiriakou on Chelsea Manning’s ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ Mom
Show: Scott Horton
Date: 2019-04-18
URL: https://youtu.be/ahlUdUoayOc
Duration: 42:00

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[00:00] sorry I'm late I had to stop by the lights Museum again did the finger that FBR we know al-qaida Zawahiri is supporting the Opposition in Syria are we supporting al-qaeda in Syria it's a proud day for America and I got you kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all Thank you very [Music]

[00:33] these witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accept as fact the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world then that's going to be an invasion aren't you guys introducing John Kiriakou he's former CIA but he seems all right mostly he wrote the accidental

[01:06] spy and now his latest is the convenient terrorist about Abu Zubaydah co-written with Joseph Hickman who is also a whistleblower he of Guantanamo Bay and the other Scott Hortons great journalism about the Guantanamo murders there in 2006 don't confuse me for him different stuff same topic welcome to show how are you doing John very happy to have you

[01:38] here and happy to see you sticking up for Chelsea Manning I tried to invite a couple other people who'd written Chelsea Manning things and I guess I didn't hear back and so I really needed somebody to come on and talk about Chelsea Manning and you did it and you got a great one it's not the American Conservative magazine today the American Conservative calm Chelsea Manning's don't tread on me moment so what moment is that exactly John you know Chelsea was subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury

[02:09] apparently against Julian Assange that's what we all expect and I think that's that's exactly what the request was and she was offered immunity but she just refused to rat out Julian and so she was prepared not to take the fifth but to take the first the first fourth and sixth amendments now this is very unusual and I mentioned in the article that it reminded me very much of something that Pete Seeger the the famous activist and folk singer did in

[02:39] the 1950s when called to appear before the house on American Activities Committee all of his friends and colleagues took the fifth and he challenged the very veracity of the of the panel saying that he had a First Amendment right to Association and he wasn't answering any questions from anybody Chelsea Manning did essentially the same thing and then so but you're saying I think in here there's kind of two courses on that on one hand it's a principled stand but it's also a legal

[03:09] strategy as well so can you please explain both angles there it is actually a legal strategy as well because what the what the prosecutors were looking for was for Chelsea to repeat testimony that she gave in her own case back in 2012 at Fort Meade that was in a military court the problem there is that if you try to recount earlier testimony something that was that was on the record that was given under oath and you

[03:40] make a mistake maybe your memory isn't what it used to be maybe you just forget a key detail they can charge you with making a false statement which is a felony they can also charge you with perjury which is a more serious felony and I think Chelsea just didn't want to take that chance and then but so now why not just say hey I plead the fifth what's the difference there well like Pete Seeger she's challenging the entire system the entire grand jury system it's

[04:10] being held in secret which is normal for grand juries but beyond the grand jury being secret the charges are secret we don't even know what Julian Assange has been charged with and the only reason we know that he's been charged with anything is because a knucklehead at the Department of Justice accidentally released it in an unrelated case in the Eastern District of Virginia and then so this is I understand what you're saying about the false statement thing because

[04:41] they'll get anybody on that and they'll get you as hard as they want to - right look what they did to the people around Donald Trump you know so many people are saying oh 31 felony charges and 13 people well they're all nonsensical what are called processed felonies what some of us call throwaway felonies so that otherwise would never have occurred had the investigation not been commenced in the first place for example Michael Flynn Mike Flynn one day when he was the national security adviser took a call

[05:12] from rod Rosenstein the number two at the Justice Department saying I'm gonna send a couple of my boys over to talk to you just a friendly chat you don't have to have an attorney present well that was a setup and so when the two FBI agents went to see Flynn they knew exactly what the answers to their questions were Flynn said something that was different than what he had said previously and they charged him with a felony count of making a false statement now they do that not to put you in prison because the federal guidelines for

[12:01] crime that was never committed so it's nothing more than a setup and even the Brits will kind of smile at you when you when you tell them that it's just a setup a setup for the Brits to arrest him and hold him just long enough for the FBI to land a plane in London and and hustle him onboard and bring him back to the States everybody knows that everybody knows now that he's gonna be charged in the Eastern District of Virginia everybody knows that he's gonna get judge brinkema just like I did and Jeffrey sterling did

[12:33] and Ed Snowden is scheduled to have so the fix is in the the plan the the US UK plan is already pretty well known yeah well listen I I don't want to take their side at all but I do want I guess AI can understand their side of the story about how just absolutely terrified of WikiLeaks they are not that that justifies anything that they've done here but you know there was this huge

[13:03] story that I don't know if we ever had a chance to cover on the show here you may you bet understanding and remember the details of this better than I do but there was an important story that said that Julian Assange was negotiating with the CIA about he would withhold the vault seven documents and not published them and then the negotiations were leads I think by his lawyer or something

[13:36] to John Warner in the Senate who then spilled the whole beans and ruined the whole negotiation or something kind of thing like that can he tell us about that you know I only saw that as a rumor like you did and who knows I it's entirely plausible I know that right after ed Snowden went went public with his revelations I was in touch with him and I made a recommendation as to attorneys and he

[14:06] engaged them immediately and then they engaged the Justice Department in negotiation to bring him home edie said that he was willing to do time if he were allowed to to say in open court why he did what he did and the Justice Department refused to agree to that and so the negotiations fell apart I think negotiations are probably a normal part of all of this God knows my lawyers spent hundreds of hours negotiating with the Justice Department if Julian's attorneys were you know

[14:39] worth their salt I I would expect them to try to do the same yeah well and essentially again there is no underlying crime here there's only a thing that really frustrated and angered government employees who have prosecutorial power and so might as well have that that's exactly what has happened okay and so now let's go back to Manning and you know WikiLeaks had been around and so it had published all kinds of great stuff

[15:10] already but Manning you know everybody agrees I don't know if she has ever had to say absolutely I'll guess yeah at the elocution of course did sit you know take responsibility for the leak tried to deny it for longest time for defense strategy purposes but so we all know did the leak of the Iran and Iraq war law I'm part me that the Iraq and Afghan war logs the Iraq war logs including the Collateral Murder video as well as the Guantanamo files not Annie Worthington's book but some

[15:42] other Guantanamo files and also of course the State Department cables that were turned up through 2009 and had contained all of these documents together as released by WikiLeaks and as covered by global newspapers have either been at the core of or at least you know the documents corroborated certain details or upheld certain major portions of probably you know more than 10,000

[16:14] important newspaper stories or you know journalistic endeavors that have been published since and this is it's on such a regular basis we see it all the time and don't even think about it that oh yeah based on the WikiLeaks State Department cables say this said the other thing that 100% of the time that's Chelsea Manning did that we finally got even the State Department version of April glass B's briefing with Saddam Hussein on July 25th 1991 she told them that we don't care if he invades Kuwait or not and and everything so this is

[16:47] someone as you say you know the headline here Chelsea Manning Chelsea Manning's don't tread on me moment this is another don't tread on me moment where this is someone who has sacrificed everything already was facing and was sentenced to a chart a tournament 35 years in prison and knew good and well that it could have been a lot worse than that going into it who is now again saying sorry Iran or do your worse because I'm not giving in and I mean this is really huge

[17:20] and and I you know what I think you even say in the article John like yeah you know Chelsea might annoy you and I think yeah I did quit following her on Twitter cuz I think you know what I wish you just stick to talking about Iraq war logs and stuff that's their area expertise anyway but but so what right it's sort of like what you're saying here is the the over personalities aside overall description of job performance in heroically liberating documents and then standing up for truth and and standing up for

[17:51] sons with this kind of integrity that that says everything and nothing else matters compared to that yeah I did say in the piece you don't have to like Chelsea you don't have to want to go out and have a beer with Chelsea to know that Chelsea's right and another thing Scott you look at Chelsea Manning we all agree fewer emojis Chelsea fewer emojis but anyway no I'm sorry go ahead do we do agree yes please cut the emojis can't handle it anymore although I did I

[18:23] did very much enjoy her feud with what's that idiot actor James Woods that was a lot of fun I had missed that one I quit Twitter in time thankfully but anyway go ahead ended up blocking her but anyway what is Chelsea Manning 5'4 55 maybe 120 pounds and she is tougher than 99% of the men that I know she just will not back down in the face of a government that's that's potent enough to to do

[18:53] their worst like they did last time I mean she never blinked at 35 years in prison and here she is again taking them on I have great respect for that because most people would have just caved most people would have said my job is too important my family is too important my kids my this my bat she didn't care she stood right up yep and so importantly again again going back to those were logs I mean the and the State Department cables this is what touched off the Arab

[19:24] Spring revolt in Tunisia was this was the background those State Department cables describing Ben Ali's corruption were all the rage in the media for three weeks leading up to the suicide by self-immolation of that poor guy ba zeusie I always say his name wrong that started off that revolution that then led to all kinds of chaos for good and frill across the Middle East I guess mostly frill but still hugely important

[19:55] in every way and of course the Iraq war logs helped to defeat Obama's attempt to negotiate for the American presence to stay in Iraq passed the sofa which I think the Iraqi government was gonna stick with that anyway but certainly said hey look these atrocities being revealed in these war logs that you denied all along they're a deal breaker there's nothing we can do now so this is all very very important at the time yes very important another important point is that is that everything that Chelsea

[20:27] released was true Chelsea released information as you rightly pointed out that war crimes possibly crimes against humanity another important point is that is that everything WikiLeaks has released has been true everything and WikiLeaks has never blow the source so if you want to leak something and you want to be confident that your identity will be predicted protected its WikiLeaks that's the only place you can go without Chelsea Manning again you don't have to

[20:57] like Chelsea you don't want to have to have a beer with her but without tell sue Manning we would not have known that our soldiers in Iraq were committing war crimes we may have suspected yeah we already knew but it was a lot of cooperation yes no there was a lot of documented already really she she changed contemporary history absolutely absolutely no question and then and now here's the other thing too is they had such a propaganda campaign back in 2010 and 2011 about this Oh blood on your

[21:28] hands blood on your hands when all that happened of course was the DoD the CIA the State Department had blood on their hands and Chelsea Manning was letting us know about the blood on their hands so all they could do is just try to turn that around and and try to accuse Manning and Assange both of some kind of Trees and when Assange is Australian anyway he doesn't owe us any Allegiance but but when the whole thing that is the the rat Adrian lamo that turned Manning over to the FBI in the first place also try to entrap than him Bradley Manning

[22:01] into making it that much worse and tried to tempt him and say listen you could be selling all these documents to the Russians of the Chinese and make a fortune you know and all of this kind of thing and Manning responds it no you stupid this isn't about that at all I want the American people especially in the people the world to know the truth so they can use democracy to make reforms with free information and all this stuff just like we all learn in sixth grade civics how it's supposed to be you know if the American people knew

[22:33] the truth they would object we have to tell them that's all and of course not money of course not turn it over to China are you kidding and then but that was what the the US government I think had told the you know to try to do that to try to pull that kind of scam and it went nowhere of course that's right it was like pure Thomas Jeffersonian free market of ideas type argument about perfectly in line with what we all understand the First Amendment to be

[23:03] about in the first place that is it I agree hey you guys here's how to support this show first of all buy my book fool's errand time to end the war in Afghanistan it's available in audiobook read by me check out all of that at fool's errand dot u.s. of course subscribe to the podcast feed at scott warren org or at libertarian institute.org and all the archives are also on youtube youtube.com slash scott horton show support me at patreon anybody who supports at patreon or at PayPal com for

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[24:07] course I take Bitcoin and every other innovation of that kind of thing that's all at Scott Horton org slash donate also shop amazon.com leave the link at the top right hand side of my page at scott worden org and hey give me a good review for the show on iTunes or stitcher or Google whatever the hell it is and amazon.com if you read the book and liked it and thank you for your support hey listen I think it's great that you wrote this thing now well Jesus I don't know I mean I guess things can only get worse here there's

[24:39] no indication that they're calling off this grand jury and of course Manning's not going to give in here so at this point she really is looking at an extended period of time and we really are looking at some sort of trumped-up Cage against the songs going forward it seems like here let me add something from my own personal experience about that issue when I was when I was a poaching trial back in 2012 I hired Oh J Simpson's jury consultant he had also been the jury consultant for for george

[25:10] zimmerman in the trayvon martin case he had he had done William Kennedy Smith in his rape case this guy is a major player and so he came up here we got him a security clearance so he could go through my files and in the end we were all sitting around this enormous conference room table I had 11 attorneys at the time and he said to me and I'll never forget it he said if we were in any other district in America I'd say let's go for it we're gonna win it but

[25:43] the Eastern District of Virginia you don't have a chance he said look at who your jury is going to be made up of either employees of or relatives of employees of the CIA the FBI the Defense Department the Department of Homeland Security and intelligence community contractors you don't have a prayer yeah and that's it he was right and anywhere else you'd be up against a bunch of cops wives anyway all right but this is way worse this is way way worse and that's

[26:16] why no national security defendant has ever won a case in the Eastern District of Virginia and then couple that with the fact that Judge judge brinkema is a a hanging judge and just simply won't allow you to mount a defense you don't have a chance if the government is not willing to deal with you you're gonna go to prison for a very very long time hmm you know this is a real thing man we're gonna have to figure something out because there's been a few great articles but somebody has to do

[26:47] something to intervene here to get to get the judge to just intervene and just say Manning you're off the hook for this trial you're not gonna squeak you know your school you're not gonna squeal something because I don't know I'm really worried about this person and man just think how I'm being selfish on behalf of AUSA for all future history here just think of how ugly America's gonna look if Bradley Chelsea Manning kills herself in prison or shortly after getting out or something from breaking

[27:19] under this kind of pressure you know just think I mean this is just crazy that this is going on especially when you know what rush or not and I think not Trump does owe WikiLeaks the election you know what they've really helped out and that might be you know Hillary shouldn't have threatened to kill a songs and maybe she would have not found herself in that position maybe she would have anyway but I agree with that but you know trunk of all people and you

[27:51] know Pompeo as you mentioned he was head of CIA before his Secretary of State and he was campaigning for Trump and praised WikiLeaks for you know their efforts in the campaign exact words were god bless WikiLeaks it doesn't be more clear than that and seriously and you know okay so now listen I don't know how much time you got actually I have almost no time let's talk about Russia gate for just a second here and I'm just gonna have to be late for my next thing I want to know whether you think that the Russian GRU

[28:22] was really behind this hack at all or what no I don't bill Binney who's the former number four at NSA and as a member of veteran intelligence professionals for sanity it's a group that I'm also a member of retired CIA NSA FBI military people bill Binney has released a definitive study saying that the information that was downloaded from the DNC server was downloaded at a speed that could not possibly have been done

[28:53] remotely it could only have been done in person onto a thumb drive because it downloaded it something like 20 times the speed that it would have downloaded had it been remote and so that tells me that there was a whistleblower inside the DNC probably pissed off because Hillary had stolen the election from from Bernie Sanders and then that person whoever it was decided to give the information to WikiLeaks I do not think that this was a Russian intelligence operation you know cuz this is the thing and it was I mentioned this on another

[29:26] interview I spaced out who as I was talking about is Danny sure since new one that's coming out tomorrow something like that was talking about of course the most important part of all of this is never mind how they gave Donald Trump the Saddam Hussein treatment it's how they what they've done to Vladimir Putin and to Russia in terms of what they have changed these words into to mean in the minds of the American people where the polls say I think it was you know one a few weeks ago 73% of Americans consider Russia to be this

[29:56] major threat that I mean how many times they've heard for three years straight they've attacked our democracy it was compared to 9/11 and Pearl Harbor and even Kristallnacht I mean she's what this is and there they will stop at nothing to disrupt us to divide us to destabilize us to discredit our constitutional system it's like a war going on and now how do you climb down from that how did in fact if you bought into that how do you stop being

[30:28] wound up about that either how do you ever forget how mad you are at those guys for what they've done even though they never did do it right right and that's an ongoing problem I think in our relations with with with Russia the Russians are being accused of everything these days and the funny thing is is that they're being accused by Democrats it's like this weird role reversal now where the Democrats are trying to sabotage relations with Russia and the Republicans are trying to foster it I just don't get it well that's just

[31:00] simple partisanship but boy just has such disastrous consequences when you have so many people I mean you know the basic mindset before that was like I don't know Russia we're essentially friends with them right that's what anybody would have told you right that you know what I don't know but now they would not say that now they're going oh my god yeah what are we going to do about them yeah yeah exactly and then we're gonna we're gonna convince ourselves that we're gonna have to do something and that's where it gets really dangerous yeah well you know what

[31:32] I'd like to think that with the the reported now yet of course and yet they've already folded up the operation without charging anyone with conspiracy and everyone who was charged as he said it was all lying the FBI I'm on minor and side issues none of which had to do with building a case toward a conspiracy of Trump working with the Russians at all and you know it's funny because it sounds so silly that we almost sounds silly repeating it right when they are the

[32:02] ones who were really saying that essentially that he was guilty of the highest treason that he was a spy that he was a compromised agent of Russia not just that they had intervened in the election and helped him to win but that now or maybe even before he owed them everything you know and this is I mean my god man you're gonna it's sort of like if he an accused of Sandy Hook mom of lying that she ever had a daughter you better really be sure you're right this is the same kind of thing like this gonna launch a whole you know FBI CIA

[32:34] push against the leader the elected chief executive you know based on this kind of thing you better really have something I know I'm gonna figure out a way to end this with a question what do you think about Robert Mueller dragging this thing out for two years because now the Trump side is saying vindicated by Mueller but they're not saying hey man how come he didn't vindicate Trump I don't know a year and a half ago if not two years ago right I want to know the answer to to the question of why the

[33:06] FISA warrants kept getting renewed like and where was the judge on this when the judge said to the FBI look there's no evidence here and then in the next breath says okay I approve a renewal of the FISA warrant and should have rolled we don't have any idea why that happened yeah it's really is you said I sound hyperbolic repeating it but we're talking about they launched this thing against first a major nominated

[33:37] candidate for the President of the United States of America right then and there you're talking about crossing major lines you better be sure you're right before you even start going down that road at right at that point and I think we already know their motive was to prevent him from being elected based on these rumors and these kind of trumped-up charges in the first place it was only after he won well they tried to throw it in the electoral college or they talked about trying to throw it in the electoral college they backed off of that plan then they recognized I guess

[34:08] he was has to be sworn in but so they released this intelligence report saying that he was only elected because of Russian intervention essentially without really proving it at all and then shortly after launched the real I guess counterintelligence and criminal investigations of his administration you know as Joann Leon was saying earlier today on the show was seem like that part was mostly the cya that was the part where geez he wasn't supposed to win and for them to be left you know

[34:38] blowing in the wind and in his crosshairs and so they better really double down on the thing and really make it seem like he's guilty of something and that's the only reason they investigated and that kind of deal only now here they are two years out they've dug themselves that much deeper of a pit it seems like yeah yeah I agree it just doesn't seem to get any better it only gets worse what a crazy story this is see I remember saying in July of 2016 that well this is never gonna take because even though the USSR is gone

[35:10] essentially the whole trope about your agent of the Kremlin is a throwback to old commie Red Scare stuff and this guy is a Republican real estate tycoon from Manhattan for God's sake it's not like he's even one of these like lincoln Chafee liberal Rockefeller Republicans he's not he's the kind of guy who certainly considers himself a patriot regardless of what the rest of us think of him you know how is this even never mind whether it's possible but how is it even possible that the American people

[35:41] would buy into this at all and just on the face of it seem so goofy to me I mean again I think that's why they really had to turn it into an investigation to give it that credibility itself you know that there must be something there or they wouldn't have taken it this far I agree and really in the end all it's done is served to to further balkanize the the American body politic you know the Kratts are more isolated on their side

[36:12] the Republicans are more isolated on the other side then there are those of us either in the middle or around the edges that are just shaking our heads not knowing where to go now yeah yeah I guess we'll see and you know I don't know I don't know what's gonna happen cuz they can't climb down we've already seen you know after the bar summary that in you know there go oh yeah well maybe obstruction then maybe firing Comey was obstruction and never mind the whole thing about the entire case for the Russia treason is over essentially and

[36:43] they all still assert that oh yeah will you have to admit that Russia did to hack and Russia attacked us in Russia there's still the reason he won whether he was in on it with them or not and this kind of thing even though that's still not proven at all the closest we've gotten to proven there is a lot of assertions with ashlee no real explanation nevermind solid proof to back up the claims in that indictment against the GRU guys and I guess I'm skipping around here but you already answered about how you agree with the Bene take there but so what do you make

[37:14] of that indictment where they blame all these GRU guys does that just made up out of whole cloth or you what do you think that I think I think though that it's apples and oranges I think that the Russians and the Russians in air quotes who is this is it is it this I mean they claim it's from GRU headquarters and they you know had cameras in there something that seems like constantly constantly probing our network systems just like we're constantly probing there's the Israelis do it the Chinese

[37:45] do it the North Koreans do it the Iranians do it everybody does so we caught them and it's technically a violation but does it mean that that they were somehow conspiring to get Donald Trump elected president no no these are apples and oranges and and it's like the Democrats just want everybody to believe that it was a concerted effort it was it was an operation a pre-planned operation to get Donald Trump elected and to defeat Hillary Clinton and there's just no evidence of that so then do you think that the gusoff or two personality

[38:18] actually just works for the CIA and they went to go and pollute these WikiLeaks documents with these you know Cyrillic letters and iron Felix references and stuff just to sort of divert the issue and you know pollute it and and and make it look like Russian involvement then but it might not have been the CIA could have been the Israelis doing the same thing because who who had as much invested in getting Donald Trump elected as the Republican Party did it was the government of

[38:49] Israel and a little bit they got out of it we moved the embassy to tell affirm Tel Aviv to Jerusalem we recognized Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Bibi Netanyahu yesterday said that if he wins re-election tomorrow he's going to annex the settlements in the West Bank I mean a Donald Trump presidency where the US government is not going to make one word of complaint that's exactly what the Israelis wanted and what better way to divert attention than to put Cyrillic letters in in the programming code yeah well and I mean in

[39:23] fact we only have crowd strikes word for that even being the case right we don't even really know the vestra do we have they turned that over to any independent examiner yet no they just want us to take their word for it yeah well I set it all along and I actually ripped this off for my old friend Tim back in 2002 when he said you know when you go down the list weapons and relationships with Nidal Hasan and whatever this kind of it's sort of ten times zero there's a lot of claims about why we got to invade

[39:55] Iraq but none of them are good enough and so really if none of them are good enough even the ones that are true even if we say okay maybe he's got one warehouse full of mustard gas or something you know start a war with that so if you took all these things that are they first of all either true or you know good enough for war or not it's zero times ten that's zero not ten and it's the same kind of thing here we can tell all along is just claim after claim after claim like just like a bunch of Michael a Dean on TV in 2002 over just

[40:28] hears a bunch of stuff you can't sort through it all before we take action based on it essentially it and then so what's funny though is I guess at the end of the day they had to either put up or shut up and Muller didn't dare put up something that he wouldn't be able to actually make a case out of and so what a wimp kind of right after all of this after dragging this out and that does seem like the thing that's actually people aren't controversial izing enough is that he dragged us out so long and we're talking

[40:58] about not just Alger Hiss or some schmuck being accused he was guilty by the way but we're talking about the president is States under cloud of suspicion of treason and this former FBI director of all the statue order let this gone for two years you know in the Bob Woodward book I'm sure you know he talks about how Trump from the very beginning told his lawyer Dowd to give Mueller and his team everything I don't have a damn thing to hide this thing is not true at all I don't care give him everything you have a hundred percent cart blunt no invocation of executive

[41:29] privilege no hiding behind lawyer tricks here's everything because it's not true everybody knows that and that book came out at least what a year year-and-a-half ago something like that I mean so that's the part that really does need to be investigated mule Trump wants to cite Mueller now of course for his vindication which I guess is fair enough but he has a lot to answer for for even allowing this thing to continue it seems like indeed I'm sorry I kept you so long here thanks so much for doing the show and especially back to our original

[42:01] subject sticking up for the great Chelsea Manning who as you said has truly sacrificed so much for all of us she really has thanks so much for having me thank you John all right John Kerry Ock you guys The Accidental spy and then his latest is with Joseph Hickman the convenient terrorist about Abu Zubaydah alright y'all thanks find me at libertarian institute.org at Scott Horton org anti-war calm and reddit.com slash Scott

[42:33] Horton show oh yeah and read my book fool's errand time to end the war in Afghanistan at fool's errand dot us you
