Title: The Defecting Sleeper KGB Spy - Jack Barsky | DEEP FOCUS with John Kiriakou
Show: The Deep Focus Show
Date: 2025-12-11
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJiQayzsB6Y
Duration: 45:00

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[00:00] One of the agents uh whispered into my ears when he caught up with me while I was waiting for the subway for for the A train from Queens to uh Manhattan. So it it was dark and cold in a de December morning and he whispered to me they already had given me signals and [music] so I had not responded to the signals and he whispered to me he says

[00:30] you know you got to come home or else you're dead. Hi I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. When I was working at the CIA in the counterterrorism center, I had a friend there who uh was not a very good case officer. He was a lovely guy, but the work just wasn't really for him. His name was Joe Weissberg. One day I went into the office and he walked up to me and he said, "Hey, I quit today." I

[01:00] said, "You quit? What are you going to do?" He said, "Well, I'm not married. I don't have any kids, so I think I'm going to go to Hollywood and find my fortune." He wrote a novel that was pretty pretty good. It was redacted by the CIA in parts, but it was pretty good. And then I saw him in the New York Times as the creator of the hottest new TV show in America. It was called The Americans. And it went for seven seasons. It made

[01:30] him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But this show was about something called KGB illegals. They were people who live in the United States. all across the country and present as Americans. But in fact, they're working secretly for the KGB. It was a fantastic idea for a TV series. Well, today I am delighted to speak with somebody who actually was a KGB illegal. Jack Barski spent a decade

[02:00] spying in the United States under a false identity before ultimately severing his ties with Soviet intelligence and building a new life as an American citizen. His story combines cold war intrigue with a striking personal transformation from from a committed communist to an outspoken critic of the system that once employed him. He was born in East Germany. He was a gifted student who became a chemistry lecturer before being secretly recruited

[02:30] by the KGB in the 1970s. Selected for this elite illegals program because of his intelligence and his aptitude for foreign languages which is very important in that world. He underwent years of intensive training in tradecraftraft in surveillance in clandestine communications in East Germany. In 1979, he entered the United States under the stolen identity Jack Phillip Barski based on the birth certificate of

[03:00] a deceased American child. And he quietly began his new existence as a sleeper agent. Jack settled in New York. He obtained legitimate employment eventually in the insurance and IT industries and focused on building his new American cover while carrying out relatively low-level intelligence tasks like profiling potential recruits and reporting on US public opinion during key Cold War crisis. Over time, he got married, he started a family, and he

[03:30] found himself increasingly drawn to ordinary American life, which gradually eroded his ideological commitment to communism. In the late 1980s, after ignoring an urgent KGB recall order, he cut himself off from Moscow, using a fabricated story about having contracted HIV, betting that the Soviets would not then come after him. He was right. Years later though, the FBI confronted him and he cooperated fully, becoming a valuable

[04:00] source of information on KGB methods and ultimately avoiding any prosecution. Today, Jack is a US citizen. He's a corporate IT professional and he's a public speaker known for his memoir, Deep Undercover, in which he reflects on identity, loyalty, and redemption. So, I am just tickled pink to be able to welcome Jack Barski to the show. Jack, thank you for joining us. We're so glad to have you. &gt;&gt; Delighted. And this was the the best

[04:30] introduction I've ever heard. So, so that summary with that summary, we can maybe conclude the the session here, [laughter] &gt;&gt; right? We'll just call it a day. &gt;&gt; So, but you said ordinary American life. I will want to change this to extraordinary. the the life that I created here for myself was phenomenal. And I'm not a corporate individual anymore. Now I'm an entrepreneur, which is not quite as phenomenal, but more

[05:00] interesting. &gt;&gt; There you go. There you go. I wasn't kidding when I said that Joe Weisberg created something in the Americans that was just captivating. Yeah. &gt;&gt; And I can't tell you how many people over the years asked me, "Is that true? Did the did the KGB really do something like that? And the answer is, oh yes. And not only did they do it, but they did it quite successfully. It was as recently as three or four years ago that a a group of illegals was outed right

[05:30] here in my own neighborhood in Arlington, uh, Virginia. So, let's let's start with with the beginning. Tell us how you fell into this. How did they come to approach you? and um and and how did they pitch it to you that made you think that this is something you might like to be involved in? I can only with certainty only uh tell you what I personally experienced because the KGB gave me next to no background

[06:00] information this and that makes a lot of sense because if you send an illegal uh to to another country and they're supposed to be you know mergent into into the population and and and become like I I was I was impersonating a born American. If you're really successful, you're much more likely to defect. And so that's why they didn't give me any information other than and what I I will

[06:30] tell you some things that I found out afterwards, but I tell you how I was I this is a guess how I came to the uh uh attention of the KGB. I'm pretty sure that they had access to the files of top universities just like the CIA and other intelligence services. They were looking for candidates in in top universities and particularly for candidates of a certain age where they already were

[07:00] mature enough to know who they are and but most likely not yet settled. So when I was approached, I was uh in my early 20s and I didn't have a steady girlfriend at the time, but I in the in the in the files under Alri, that was my German name. Uh it was clear that I was a an outstanding student. I had received

[07:30] a a scholarship national scholarship that was limited to only 100 concurrent holders in the entire country. So that meant I als not not only did I have good grades and the best grades uh but I also was active I was a a party member. I was active in the communist youth movement. And you to round it all out, I also was in the starting lineup of the college basketball team. So we have an interesting candidate that we need to,

[08:00] you know, talk to. Uh this and so the first meeting I had was not a recruitment whatsoever. It was just getting to know you because what they knew was I that I was smart and I was a communist and probably some other things about my personal life. What they didn't know was did I have what it takes to to [snorts] uh function in what I consider from an intellectual point of view and the

[08:30] overall behavioral point of view the the toughest job in intelligence because it's a lone wolf undercover illegal where you have to make all your decisions by yourself. There's no boss. There's no no colleagues. You by yourself. And so they I found out what they were looking for and they they actually studied me for 18 months before they made made the offer. But they were looking for among others like quick decision- making. Uh they were looking

[09:00] for uh lack of fear, bravery. They were looking for uh the ability to just say goodbye to uh the current situation and have no problem with uh you know changing everything in life. And they [clears throat] were looking for did I have the ability to uh reach out to uh strange strange individuals introduce myself befriend them and find information from them. It's elicitation.

[09:30] They gave me some tasks to do. They were really uncomfortable, but you know, I couldn't fail. Failure was was for me. Okay, that was never an option. Uh and u and and my my favorite is uh inclination uh uh wellont controlled inclination for adventure. So, [laughter] and I I I had this I my my inclination for adventure was really in childhood

[10:00] not not very well controlled because I I did a lot of things that I shouldn't have done as a child like climb trees that that couldn't hold me and I would fall down and I break something and run around barefoot and uh playing soccer and and step onto uh glass shards and on and on. So I I I wasn't a very high-risk individual. And uh that one one more I want to uh mention is uh um the ability to come up

[10:30] with a clever lie on the spot to get you out of a tough situation. Uh so that's a quick response to fluid situations. That's what &gt;&gt; that was code for lying. &gt;&gt; Allow me to ask you about that because that's a theme that comes up in the Americans over and over and over again. You have to be able to think very

[11:00] quickly on your feet and it has to be not just a lie but a clever lie as you just said. &gt;&gt; Yes. &gt;&gt; Was that hard? Was that hard to do or did it come naturally to you? &gt;&gt; It did came naturally to me. I I I you know, most people when they lie, they the lie is very often worse than than what they're trying to cover up because because it gives them away. I I could project forward how this might play if

[11:30] it's being investigated. So I I I had I was blessed with a with a very fast uh fast brain, very very fast brain. And the speed of a brain, I don't think it has been measured, but it's not as fast as it used to be. But, uh, for my age, it's pretty darn good still. &gt;&gt; Oh, God bless. I wanted to ask you, too, what what was the or was there a a single decisive moment when your loyalty

[12:00] shifted from the Soviet cause to the life that you had built in America? And and why do you think it shifted? &gt;&gt; Okay. Now, if you're talking about uh the loyalty to uh say communism and this the country I was born in [clears throat] to becoming a loyal American, that was a very lengthy process, very lengthy process. And I tell you uh it was good that it was a lengthy process because the decontamination

[12:30] that uh I it pretty much was engaged in myself by finding out more and more information about how we were lied to and how things were not the way we thought they were and and I also how we were lied to how bad capitalism is. you know, I experienced this slowly and by comparison, you know, people that my my age, you know, fellow classmates, fellow students, when Germany uh was reunified,

[13:00] it hit them like a 2x4 over the head. They they they did not have the luxury of time and all of a sudden everything changed. And it's for some of them, and I met some uh it it felt like they like a a long-term prisoner who's been in prison for 10 years and is being led out into society and is not functional. I had a friend uh who was a who was had

[13:30] pretty high chess ranking. He played Karpov to a draw one time in a simultaneous match. I I still have the the record of that. And when when the wall came down, he couldn't find another job. He could not find a job. He because he was used to being taken care of and he was like so miserable. So you know again I that the shift in loyalty was a very slow one. It started initially with

[14:00] understanding that the lies about what America was all about uh was just uh they were just lies. When I had my first corporate job in in an insurance company, I was looking for the evil capitalists and I couldn't find any because it felt more like in insurance in those days were very paternalistic. They took care of their employees and it felt like okay it's just like I'm

[14:30] employed in East Germany again. It was you know we got free lunch and and people were very nice. There were some idiot bosses like the you find them everywhere. But uh [clears throat] point being that was a that was the first lie. But the the the worst lies that I had to find out after the war came down. I was so surprised like everybody else. The CIA was surprised, the KGB was surprised. Nobody predicted that spontaneously the East German

[15:00] nation would rise up and and and succeed in breaking down that wall. uh but so I was surprised and at that point I didn't have to go to the library because the internet was available already and I could do a lot of research in my spare time and of course I did the research and I found out for instance I found unredacted works of Vladimir Lenin and Lenin was a hero to us in East Germany.

[15:30] He was the founder of the uh of communist Russia and then founded the Soviet Union and u he died because he took such sacrifices with his life and he was also injured in a assassination attempt and he was a smart guy and he implemented Marxism Leninism which to us was taught like a like a science.

[16:00] Marxism, Leninism predicted that the there would it was inevitable that uh the future of mankind would be in a communist paradise where there would everybody uh that was the the motto everybody according to their ability and to from everybody and to everybody uh according to their needs. That sounded really romantic and it was sold as a science and Lenin implemented something like that. Well, when you when I had

[16:30] access to unredacted writings of Vladimir Lenon, I very quickly found out that he was just as murderous a bastard bastard as Stalin was, possibly even more evil. except he didn't have as many tools to kill as many people because when Stalin Stalin had the forerunners of the KGB and he used that group to do the killing for him and and populate the gulachs for him but Lenon was just I mean he seated the

[17:00] nonsense. So, um, at that point, uh, I already had the person in my life that made me stay in the United States when they called me back, as you uh, as you pointed out, and that was um, an 18-month-old daughter, a child who who I had unexpectedly, first of

[17:30] all, she was born because mom uh decided to it was a good idea to keep me as a dad around because I told her I I wasn't you know I I married she she was illegal in the country and I married her to get get her a green card and that worked and I told her that once you got your green card uh we're going to get divorced again and uh she didn't quite follow that rule. she stopped

[18:00] taking the pill and got pregnant on purpose and all of a sudden the the illegal KGB agent became an American dad holding a baby. So, and and I don't know [clears throat] uh I've talked to many men who have uh girls as children, girls and boys. But when we men when when we first hold the girl is something happens to us and and this is this was unexpected. I wasn't even aware of it but I just fell in love

[18:30] with this child. And when she was 18 months old by the time the the KGB uh called me back. She was she wasn't really talking yet but she had the biggest wonderful pretty brown eyes and nice hair. And so every time I came home from work, she was just uh she was in a in a uh in a what's that called? &gt;&gt; Pen enclosure. So

[19:00] and she would just climb up and look look over the uh the great there and look at me and &gt;&gt; without saying it, the eyes just says, "I love you, Dad." And that was the first time in my life that I un that I didn't even understand it, but I experienced unconditional love. But up until that point, I was just in love with I wanted to have a girlfriend. I was in love with myself a lot because I was so damn good.

[19:30] Everything I touched, I I succeeded at and and I was praised by a lot of people. So, I was just an arrogant uh young man and and all of a sudden I was in love with this innocent being that couldn't even tell me anything yet. And that uh is that young young lady uh is responsible for me talking to you today.

[20:00] So when you're looking for a specific moment and I this moment I will never forget uh I um um I knew I would be called back eventually. The tour of duty typically was about 10 to 12 years. I was in my 11th year. Again they they didn't want to keep illegals around too long because the the risk of defection would grow the longer you keep them there in the

[20:30] country. &gt;&gt; [clears throat] &gt;&gt; So, I knew I would have to leave and I couldn't find a way to support her, this child by the name of Chelsea and her mother. I there was no way for me to support her from a from a distance and I couldn't ask anybody for help. So, so I I didn't know what to do. And uh I kicked the can down the road until they with in no uncertain terms told me, "You

[21:00] got to come home." And this literally I'm quoting a uh something that one of the agents uh whispered into my ears when he caught up with me while I was waiting for the subway for for the A train from Queens to uh Manhattan. So it it was dark and cold in a dece December morning and he whispered to me they already had given me signals and so

[21:30] I had not responded to the signals and he whispered to me he says you know you got to come home or else you're dead in a Russian accent. Now Russian accent or not maybe you was used awkward language but you had to take this seriously. So, and I now had to follow instructions. They asked me for to you know what a dead

[22:00] drop operation is? &gt;&gt; Oh, yes I do. &gt;&gt; Okay. Yes. So dead drop is when for for the listeners or the viewers is when you hand over something that has uh that has u size such as money, a passport, whatever else, objects rather than information. and they called me for a dead drop operation to get a passport and and money so I can uh make my way to

[22:30] Canada and eventually um go uh ring the bell at the Soviet uh embassy where they would uh then get me out of the country and get me back home. So, this was an interesting operation. Was the only operation that uh they scheduled for the dark at night [clears throat] uh on Staten Island. It was a spot that I couldn't miss because I found it myself and and it was so easy to find

[23:00] the and and so so easy to describe that there was no way that this operation would fail. And guess what? there. First of all, uh there there there's a signal that the person set who supposedly put a a crushed oil can uh at the bottom of a hollowed big tree and and I saw that signal, the chalk mark. It said, you know, it's there. Go

[23:30] get it. So, I'm going into the park and that tree was impossible to miss and there was no oil can. So, um that's a shock. And um I had a this was in again and it was dark and cold. There was nobody in the park. So, I turned the flashlight on and I walked around and walked around and walked around. Couldn't find anything. So, eventually after like 15 minutes, I gave up. That

[24:00] was the only oper drop operation that failed. Uh I'm thinking that was an intervention by God or whatever. So it was it was not it was not plausible. So and here's the moment that I remember as I'm walking out of this park and I s set foot on the sidewalk that is parallel to the park. I to there's three words that came to me

[24:30] from my subconscious. I am staying. That was from a rational perspective the dumbest decision I could have ever made because here's here's the reason rationally everything that was good for me was back in behind the iron curtain be behind the wall. The wall was still up in those days. Um and um everything everything that was threatening for me for my existence was in the United States because the the KGB told me

[25:00] through Morse code that most likely the FBI is investigating me. And if if I tell the KGB I'm not coming home, they could interpret this as a defection. So for me to stay all I would be able to stay with my girl for a while but then I could be arrested or worse yet uh assassinated by the KGB. That was not out of the question. I could have

[25:30] rationalized all of this, but my my instinct, my subconscious, my love overrode all of that and and I made that quote unquote dumb yet the very best decision in my entire life. I want to ask you too. I I in my own career I spent many many years not just overseas but overseas undercover and in some cases under pretty sophisticated deep cover.

[26:00] It's not unusual to get confused sometimes by your own cover. Um, I once I once answered the phone using the wrong name, for example, and then I ended up just hanging up on the person. They called back and I made it seem as if, no, they must have dialed a wrong number. &gt;&gt; What was it like for you to to live every day with this deep cover? What

[26:30] aspect of maintaining a completely fabricated identity was the most difficult for you psychologically on a day-to-day basis? &gt;&gt; Right? I have to uh disappoint you. It didn't feel that difficult. Now, here's the thing. I did not operate in the same language. So, so I then there's no way that I could answer the phone and say, "Hey, this is Albert." And when I when I went back to Germany and people would say my name, I didn't even see him. I

[27:00] turned around. So, what happened was that I I had manufactured the dual personality for myself. And and there's there's pretty much proof that I have. So um when as [clears throat] I just told you when I'm I every two years I uh traveled back to Moscow for some debriefing and some more training if the training was necessary and then I spent time with my German family.

[27:30] And so again when somebody used my German first name I would respond. So now I go back to the United States and I I always traveled with a shortwave radio just in case I'm stuck someplace and I need to uh receive Morse code. But when I was in reach to uh get an American radio station, I was eager to find out how the Yankees were doing in the playoffs.

[28:00] So the American was back in business. So I I I in an interview with a with a German news magazine the Spiegel, I sort of compared this that that I had two compartments in here and and one was passive in the back and the other one was active. As soon as I I never had a problem uh impersonating Jack Barski in the United States. Okay. And it get it got a little more

[28:30] difficult to be the German. How did how did the KGB's vision of the United States differ from what you came to see the United States as being? Well, when you say the KGB, you need to uh differentiate between the ones who

[29:00] were subject to the propaganda and never &gt;&gt; good point. &gt;&gt; Never been to the United States and then the people that had been to the United States and they were all the when they operated in the US, they were all under the diplomatic cover. So what they knew and what they proudly displayed uh is the wealth in uh that was prevalent in the US and attainable to like middle class citizen uh people. So yeah, they it never failed that when

[29:30] when it was really cold outside in Moscow winter, uh my some of my uh teachers, trainers, coaches would show up in clothes that were were bought at Macy's or Saks Fifth Avenue and were proudly displaying the clothes that they had. You know, you didn't didn't I mean that was normal to them. So they they knew the standard of living was higher. They most likely knew that

[30:00] uh uh the overall the uh uh the there wasn't as much evil uh prevalent in the United States. Uh but I think they were still uh uh emotionally and intellectually um attached to the communist cause. I mean when you when you get that brain brainwashed from kindergarten on that is

[30:30] very very difficult to to uh to wipe out and so uh they rationalized. Okay. And uh and they they also they were very happy in the in and they and I actually w was looking forward to that too. they they were happy to serve a higher cause, right? Communism, worldwide communism, and yet have the cake and eat it too, you know? And so, uh, this this is, uh,

[31:00] what I noticed with those guys, but there's one thing that they didn't know and they didn't know what they didn't know. &gt;&gt; Right? So, and I and I give this an in an an example that uh uh will illustrate what I'm talking about. First of all, they spoke with an accent.

[31:30] They lived, some of them had their families in the United States. They lived in a in a compound up in in the north of Manhattan where they they were all and then they went to work at in New York that was all at the United Nations either in the as part of the Soviet contingent or employees of the UN. Um as such they didn't have a clue what it was like to live as an American. So, this is

[32:00] where I'm I'm using the example of a a big aquarium in in Atlanta, Georgia, where I lived for a while. They have this huge aquarium where you [clears throat] can stand in front of this thing and they have sharks in there, all kinds of living creatures that live in the water, and it's fascinating. [clears throat] Yeah. But me watching these fish, I didn't know what it's like to be a fish. And so the the diplomats never had to go

[32:30] uh find a job, never had to find an apartment. Uh you know, they they just did not know what it was like to be in be an American. And the instructions that they gave me were all false uh from A to Z. You know, they gave me all kinds of ideas. This is how how you go about getting a driver's license. This is how you go get get your social security card. This is this is uh where you where you should find a job such as a taxi driver or a steador. Uh by the

[33:00] way, this is uh I found out these jobs the steador is highly unionized. At least it was. So I couldn't get that taxi driver, forget it. So I started out as a messenger. I I had to figure this all out now. That's why they hired somebody like me. But these these you know the thing is that within the system of the Soviet Union and within the KGB the folks that had been under diplomatic cover uh in the United States were the

[33:30] ones that knew everything and everybody said, "Oh yeah, you've been there. You've seen it." No. And so the most dangerous thing in life is with regard to knowledge and ignorance not not to know what you don't know. &gt;&gt; That's right. &gt;&gt; Before &gt;&gt; go ahead. &gt;&gt; Before we get to the next question, I I want to read an ad from our sponsor. While many of us are distracted by headlines, a real transformation is

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[35:00] free. That's johnloves.com. Because if the dollar dollar is going digital, you'll need something real. Thanks for taking that pause, Jack. &gt;&gt; Can I add to this? &gt;&gt; Yes, please. &gt;&gt; If our currency goes digital, there goes the freedom. &gt;&gt; Mhm. &gt;&gt; There there goes the freedom because &gt;&gt; I agree completely. &gt;&gt; Human nature. If you are if you're near the top or or clo or wants to go to the top and you and uh people want to

[35:30] control other people and if you the these the financial tools are more dangerous than than any kind of weapon you can think of. &gt;&gt; No doubt. &gt;&gt; You can't run away from that. You you're enslaved. &gt;&gt; Jack, when the FBI finally approached you, well, first of all, do you know how it was that they figured it out? And secondly, what made you decide to cooperate with the FBI, especially to the extent that you did? &gt;&gt; Yeah. Well, that that was a no-brainer

[36:00] because I I had a family. I had a I had a house in the country. I had a good job. Uh I had a beautiful wife. I had two children. And and uh I had quit the KGB. So for me returning to Germany I could have possibly gone to Germany but I don't know whether I would have done what they would have done with me the the you know the United German country uh I certainly wouldn't have been very

[36:30] welcome [laughter] &gt;&gt; right &gt;&gt; so uh you know I I had become an American uh also that was um let me see I don't want to misstate this I when when did 9/11 happen? What year? &gt;&gt; 2001. &gt;&gt; 2001. So 9 911 had not happened yet. But you know I had so many friendships and relationships. You know I I I bought I had created uh my version of the

[37:00] American dream and it felt really good. So I didn't want to leave that. Uh so uh how they found out u there was a an archavist in in the first directorate of the KGB. First directorate was espionage. uh and he was the the lead archavist and he over oversaw the the movement uh of uh the the archives including that that was included in the move of the

[37:30] headquarters from uh uh Lubiana, you know, uh right there at the Red Square to Yasanovo where they the KGB had their new headquarters. And this guy had developed an a an incredible hatred for the Soviet system. He there was a there was a security uh breach here there. He had access to every little page that was written there and he copied some stuff

[38:00] handwritten and with uh you know small pieces of paper and smuggled them out every night. A few pieces of paper in his underwear and in his socks. again they let him go out there. Nobody ever uh patted him down or anything like that. And over time, it took years, he collect he transcribed what he what he wrote down on on the pieces of paper and uh m typed

[38:30] the result into larger p pieces of paper and buried all that stuff in in a data. And it was in uh just about close to a year after the Soviet Union collapsed and the KGB ex ceased to exist. he uh decided to share what he had with initially he he approached the American embassy on a on a weekend and there was a junior officer as a guard and he told

[39:00] him that we are not interested in that this is old stuff that was a career limiting move because Vasilei Matroken that was the guy's name he uh then went to one of the Baltic republics and told MI6 what he had. And MI6 said, "Well, let's come on in. Let's have a a cup of tea." So, they had a cup of tea and they

[39:30] managed to smuggle several boxes worth of typewritten intelligence, the the most valuable intelligence in the history with one exception, and that's that was the atomic secret. But uh so and and then MI6 shared the relevant stuff with the FBI and amongst uh the the notes there was just a couple of words. It says there is an illegal

[40:00] who lives in the northeast of the United States and his last name is Barski. Well, if last name was Smith, I probably wouldn't be talking to you today. So, so the bars was relatively easy to find and and and there were some bars and this I I I was told by the the person who was in charge of the investigation, the lead agent who is now a good friend of mine. Uh another oddity in my life. So uh um they

[40:30] found out there there were like maybe a handful or half a dozen bars and the one that got his social security number at the age of 38 39 that must have been him because everybody else got it early. [clears throat] So, and they spent quite a I think it was altogether five year. No, it was I don't want to misspeak. It was at least two years to observe me from a distance

[41:00] because the other than the name and that I wasn't illegal. They didn't know anything. I could still be active and if I was still active and they get really close, they knew one thing. I had survived uh at that point uh like 14 years in the United States undetected. So I I was really well trained and I if I'm if I'm still looking for surveillance I'll I find it and so they watched me from a distance.

[41:30] One of the questions that I get very very frequently is because I underwent so much training over the years. Do I continue to look for surveillance? Do I continue to spot, assess, develop uh you know sources of information? And at least as far as the surveillance goes, I can't help myself. I'm constantly looking for surveillance. Are are you the same way or No, it's it's past. &gt;&gt; It's interesting. &gt;&gt; It's truly passed. What I There's one uh

[42:00] residue I can't get rid of. If somebody knocks at my door, I go like this. You can ring the bell, that's fine. But the knock. But other than that, surveillance. No. I stopped looking for surveillance. Once I decided when I told the the uh when I sent my goodbye letter to the KGB uh I spent another like six weeks counter surveillance and all kinds of measures

[42:30] to see even if the FBI is uh investigating me with one of the methods I'm sure you know that you write a letter to yourself &gt;&gt; and uh you don't do you don't glue the entire letter you keep an inch unglued Because the letters are people can't open the letters. They do damage. So they're opened by machines and glued back by machines and machine glues everything. Right. So So I know you're nodding and you know there there is some

[43:00] kind of an international standard how to how to operate in in secrecy. I have a I have a friend who uh um who is legend amongst the retired CIA and every time we meet when we exchange information but you did that too [laughter] &gt;&gt; you know one time &gt;&gt; the trade craft the trade craft doesn't change much from country to country. So, how did I got sidetracked here? Uh, so

[43:30] and how so so how they they found me, I told you. And and why I cooperated, that was a no-brainer. The one thing I just wanted to point out, the the um the producers of the Americans were like elated to find out that in my case the FBI bought the house next door because they had a they in in their uh series they had FBI living next door

[44:00] &gt;&gt; and I had FBI living next door for me next to me for a while. &gt;&gt; Unbelievable. Well, we will leave it there. Jack Barski again, such an incredible treat. Jack is a Fortune 500 and IT consultant, and he's the author of an absolutely wonderful book. It's been out for a little while, but you can still find it. It's called Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a [music] KGB Spy in America. Thanks again for joining us. And ladies and

[44:30] gentlemen, please help us bring you more conversations like this by liking, sharing, and subscribing. Please tell your friends and family. We're coming right up on a 100,000 subscribers. I can't tell you how much that means to all of us here. Thanks again for joining us. I'm John Kuryaku. This is Deep Focus.
