Title: CIA and the Vatican, Christian Zionism, and Living the Faith
Show: The Third Way (Orthodox Thought)
Date: 2026-06-16
URL: https://youtu.be/99-EzDMH7ck
Duration: 1:04:00

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[00:00] US government and the CIA were instrumental in pressuring the College of Cardinals to choose John Paul as the Pope. >> to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind. Benjamin Netanyahu. Welcome back to the third way. We have a special episode today with a very very special guest. John Kiriakou. >> Good to see you. >> John, you've been everywhere recently. You've been on Theo Von last week I believe, right? Matone was a special one and Patrick Bet-David was about a month

[00:30] ago, right? And then the list goes on. You're one of the most popular men on the internet right now I'd say. >> Crazy. >> How does it feel? >> It's surreal. The funny thing is I've been telling most of these stories for 19 years. And nobody paid any attention. I've written 10 books. And nobody paid any attention. I mean for the most part. And then for whatever reason, and and I know the date it happened, February 28th, uh 2026, it hit the YouTube algorithm sweet spot and went crazy. >> Yeah.

[01:01] Well, you're well-known as uh an ex-CIA agent, whistleblower, and a political commentator now. Um but there's one aspect of your life that's I find is really touched on in your podcasts and your episodes, and it's your faith. >> Mhm. >> Um would you like to tell us a little bit about that? >> Sure. I was raised cradle Greek Orthodox. My uh grandparents, all four of my grandparents, immigrated to the US from Greece. Orthodoxy has always been not just important, it is to every Orthodox family, but it was like the central

[01:31] tenant of our community. Our friends were all from church. We went to church every Sunday. We went to Greek school Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5:45 to 7:00, which seemed like an eternity when you're a little kid. Um but everything really was centered around uh around church. >> So it's it's actually quite funny because we were both watching a clip of you uh talking like you got a question about the faith on a show. And we seen you light up, you got super super excited by it. And we're like, you know what? Let's just get him and let's do a whole entire show about it. And that's

[02:03] what we're here doing today, so. >> I'm very glad. It is important to me. Important enough that um that I went to Mount Athos in 2006, made the pilgrimage there, stayed at three monasteries, which you're you're allowed to stay 4 days and three three nights on a on a pilgrim's visa. Uh I I wear a crucifix that I I never take off. I've had it on for 26 years now but not having taken it off. But um on my first night at the first monastery, the Xenophontos,

[02:35] the abbot asked me, he saw the chain and he asked, "Are you wearing a crucifix?" I said I was. He said, "Give it to me." So I took it off and he put it on the on the skull of um Saint Basil the Great and blessed it. And then he put it on the right arm of John the Baptist. And um you know, it's funny. It It was very cool to me at the time, but it didn't fully register until he said, "Assuming that John, like most people, was right-handed, this was the hand and the arm with which he baptized Christ

[03:06] himself." And it was just so incredibly powerful. I went to um Jerusalem in 2022. Went twice in 2022. And as soon as I arrived, like you arrive at like 4:00 in the morning and um went through customs and immigration, got a an Uber to Jerusalem and I went straight to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre at 6:00 a.m. It was just opening at 6:00 a.m. There's a uh

[03:37] there's a really mean Greek Orthodox priest that stands right at the entrance to the Aedicule, the entrance to to the building that covers Christ's tomb. And his job is just to stand there and say, "No photo. No video. No photo. No video." And like, okay, I heard the first 100 times you said it. Anyway, just as I'm going inside the tomb, this woman says, "Excuse me, Father, I have a question." And he turns, and I went click click click click click click click as fast as I could, got great pictures of the actual tomb, and then

[04:09] went outside, I waited for the top of the hour for the bells to ring, recorded it, and was able to use that as my as my ringer. >> That's amazing. It's funny you mentioned St. John the Baptist actually, because we'd like to just first acknowledge the church we're in, St. John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Cathedral here in Washington, D.C. We'd like to thank Father Victor and Father Alexander and Father David for allowing us to use the space. To >> It's a gorgeous church. It's at the intersection of 17th Street and Shepherd Street

[04:39] Northwest. Just a stunning church. >> And it's the only church in North America that was founded by an Orthodox saint, St. John of Shanghai in San Francisco. >> Wonderful. Beautiful. >> Which we learned very late in the parking lot. >> Yeah. All right. So, you've been in the CIA. You've seen things other people probably couldn't imagine realistically. And you've been in jail for doing something righteous, right? How did the faith help you through these struggles? >> Oh, the faith got me through. Um one of the things that I haven't

[05:10] talked about very much, just because nobody's asked me, was the role of Orthodoxy in my life in prison. So, I'm going to just come right out with it. I I copped an attitude in prison. I figured, you know, what? I did something that was right. I'm being punished for political reasons. I'm not apologizing to anybody. So, I had an attitude. I'm the first one to admit it. I um I did not fit in in the library. The

[05:41] guards there hated me and hated my attitude and told me to get out and never never come back. Which was great, cuz it was all full of pedophiles anyway. So, I went down to the chapel. And I told the chaplain I'd really like to work in the chapel. You have to have a job in prison. You have to. Even if it's kind of a no-show job or no-work job, you have to have something. So, uh the chaplain liked me and hired me. I was the only Orthodox uh Christian in the chapel. There was only one other Orthodox Christian in the

[06:11] uh prison. He was a Ukrainian American, but he was a pedophile, so I didn't have anything to do with him. When I got to the chapel, my job was to um just give out books or videos for any prisoner that would come to the window and say, "Hey, can I take such and such a book?" or "Can I watch this video?" They had their own video library there. And I said to the chaplain, "Why no Orthodox books? You got a whole wall for the Catholics, a whole wall for the Protestants, a whole wall for the Mormons and the

[06:43] Muslims and the Jews and the Native Americans and the Wiccans and this one and that one, religions I never even heard of." And he said, "We either never had an Orthodox or never had an Orthodox who cared." Well, um Metropolitan Savvas of Pittsburgh has always been a big supporter of mine and he would come to the prison to visit, just like a normal visitor, but he would come with his big hat and his staff and everything. It was great. So, he asked me, um "What can What can I

[07:14] do to help Man, excuse me. What can I do to help you?" And I said, "Well, to tell you the truth, Your Eminence, there's really nothing anybody can do to help me, but what would be helpful to people after me is if you could uh get some books on Orthodoxy and send them in and I'll make sure that they become part of the library." So, he sent Father Michael Kallaur of suburban Pittsburgh from a Greek Orthodox church there. Father Michael used to come all the time to see me. He's a great guy. He's a uh uh friend of my sisters and um

[07:46] these books just started arriving. And then there was a Russian Orthodox priest from Altoona, Pennsylvania who used to come not as often as the other two, but he would come regularly and he would always bring books. And so by the time I left we had a full-fledged Orthodox library at the prison. I know that's a small point, but it's something that I'm proud of. And another thing too Orthodox Christian Ministries which you can find on Facebook and Twitter and you know, Instagram and all that stuff. They were incredibly

[08:17] generous. Um I don't even know. I I mean one of my priest friends must have told them about me because as soon as I arrived they started sending me paper icons and you know, flyers, sermons, holy days, stuff like that. It was incredibly helpful. So it all kind of came together. >> Is it tough to follow the fast in the feast in prison? >> It's impossible. >> Yeah, I would assume so. >> Unless you have outside money

[08:47] allowing you to buy things in the in the commissary. One thing I did and I wish it had been my idea cuz it was a great idea but I didn't think of it. There was an Iraqi Kurdish prisoner that I was friendly with. Um and uh he was kind of wandering around the prison yard one day and it was just as Lent was starting. And I said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "I'm picking uh dandelion leaves." And I said, "Horta, it never even occurred to me."

[09:17] So I said, "Do you mind if I pick some too? I don't want to take your dandelions. I'll go to the other side of the of the yard." He said, "No, no, no." He said, "Pick. Nobody knows what they are around here. Pick whatever you want." So I picked a huge bag of of wild uh dandelions and then went to the commissary and got olive oil. And to tell you the truth, that kind of got me through Lent. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> So, you did fully follow the feast almost? Like you stuck to it? >> There were some days they wouldn't let you out cuz it's, you know, raining all day.

[09:49] Or um there were some days where there was just nothing Lenten. And you either had to violate it or or go uh go hungry. So, I tried to buy things in the commissary as best I could. Um they sell tuna in bags, like foil bags. So, I went through a lot of tuna. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But then it's, you know, rice with no stock or, you know, whatever you can find. >> So, I have this personal question that's I I've been sitting on for months and

[10:20] months and months. I need to ask this. So, you talk a lot about the Abu Zubaydah thing, right? You talk about debating Christianity and Islam with him. What kind of things were you debating about with him? >> You know, it was more that we were agreeing than debating. Um of course, the Muslims believe that Christ was not just a prophet, but he was one of the greatest prophets. Muhammad, of course, being the greatest. Jesus is right up there, like almost as an equal, almost. They don't believe

[10:51] that he was crucified. They have this kind of odd belief that it was somebody who looked like Jesus who was crucified and that Jesus escaped. So, we kind of debated that and he said, you know, we both acknowledge that that the Jews were wrong at the time of of Christ. And I said, yes, of course, we both acknowledge. And the And the Jewish belief of Jesus, you know, in burning in excrement in hell is just not something that uh any Christian is or should be willing to entertain.

[11:21] And um so, it at least gave us something on which we could agree and carry on a civilized conversation as two adults. And he wasn't the only one who was like that. Um, the very first prisoner I captured was was a Jordanian. It was funny. I I wish every prisoner had been like him. Because they brought him in, the Pakistanis brought him into this interrogation room that we had, and they chained him to an eye bolt in the table. And I was thinking in advance, should I be the good cop? Should I be the bad

[11:53] cop? Should I be like mean to him? And then I thought, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to sit and have a conversation with this guy. So I said, "What's your name?" And boom, he told me his name. Like the tribal name and the whole thing. "When were you born?" And he told me. And you know, it sounded right. And I said, uh, "What were you doing in Afghanistan?" And he said, "Well, I went to Afghanistan 3 years ago to volunteer to build an orphanage. I worked at an orphanage in Jordan." And he went into this long story. Like with every prisoner, I laid out a

[12:24] map of the Afghan-Pakistan border area, and I told him, "Tell me exactly how you got from Afghanistan to Pakistan." We knew how they all got through the pass, but he told me the truth. And every question that I asked him, he told me the truth. So, I said, "Okay. Well, thank you." And he said, [snorts] uh, "What's going to happen to me?" And I said, "To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. You're Jordanian. We're very close to the Jordanians. We'll probably just send

[12:55] you back to Jordan, and then you can just deal with your own government." We hadn't yet opened Guantanamo. And, um, he said, "Now may I ask you a question?" And I said, "Oh, sure." He said, "I would like to invite you into the embrace of Islam, and I would like to be your godfather." >> Wow. >> And I said, "Well, thank you. I have a faith. I'm I'm an Orthodox Christian, but, uh, but I appreciate you thinking about me. Thank you for that." And he

[13:25] said, "Well, good luck to you." I said, "No, good luck to you." And then he kind of we had him chained, but he put his hand out to shake my hand. And I thought, "Well, I wish everybody was was like him." They weren't. But he and I was a better wanted to have this conversation. >> Do you think like part of their demeanor towards you was because they were the ones locked up in chains and >> I asked him that. >> Okay. >> And I said, "Why would you Why would you answer all my questions truthfully? I know you were telling the truth." And he said, "What good would it do me to lie? I'm your prisoner.

[13:55] Lying doesn't help me in any way." And I said, "True enough. I appreciate it." >> Wow. So, it would you have any other stories about kind of dealing with uh specifically like Muslims during your time in CIA and how you kind of debated Christianity and like what arguments do you usually use when you're debating with the a terrorist or even if it's a civilian person? >> the terrorists aside, I never really did any debates >> Okay. >> uh specifically. They were conversations.

[14:27] Um in Bahrain, Bahrain to me was one of the most interesting because there were churches in Bahrain, just no Orthodox churches. Well, there was one Malayalam Orthodox, but we're not in communion with the Malayalam Orthodox Eastern >> Is that the Indian >> The Indian the South Indian Orthodox Church of uh St. Thomas. So, um I went there once uh with my wife. Our son was 16 months old and we we came out and my wife goes, "What do you think?" And men were on one side, women were veiled, and on the other side

[14:58] she says, "What do you think?" And I said, "Honestly, I was waiting for them to sacrifice a chicken or something. I don't know what the heck was going on in there." And everybody like spent half the liturgy just turned and looked at me looking at me like, "Who's this white guy, you know, in our church?" So, it was weird. So, we ended up going on Sundays to the um to the Anglican Cathedral just cuz it was closer. There was a Catholic church that we never went to. I I wasn't I had no interest in going to the Catholic church.

[15:28] But the Anglicans were very very warm and friendly. After I'd been there for a year and I was friends with all the Greeks and all the Cypriots on the island. They're all very successful bankers, investment advisors, construction big shots. And then the honorary Greek consul was a Greek-American woman from right here in in suburban Washington. So we were constantly inviting the whole group to lunch and dinner and parties and stuff like that. So she

[16:00] calls me one day and she said, "Hey, the the Archbishop of Cyprus wants to come." I said, "Hey, that's great." They used to joke and they even joked to the Emir, His Highness the Emir, that I loved Bahrain so much and I had so many visitors come to Bahrain that he should name me Minister of Tourism. So I said, I said, "If he's going to be here for more than a minute I'd love to show him the island, take him to the museums and and she said, "We have a whole plan

[16:30] worked out and he's going to come here to ask for a plot of land so we can build a church." I was like, "Oh my god." Well, the Emir liked me a lot. I think he especially liked my wife. The Emir had a a beach house, one of his many palaces. It was on the beach and on weekends Westerners or more specifically people from a culture that doesn't stare >> Okay. >> could go to the beach and wear bathing suits and go swimming. So my wife could wear a bikini and we

[17:02] would take our son and we'd go to the beach. Well, if the Emir were there for the weekend and he usually was he would send one of his lackeys over to us and invite my wife for tea and then an hour later the lackey would come back and say, "His Highness would like to see you now." So, he took a liking to me. And he knew that I loved Bahrain. The Archbishop comes and it's this big deal that all of the Orthodox on the island, and it had to be like 40 of us,

[17:34] uh go to the main palace to meet with His Highness. And uh and the two of them are sitting up at the front of the diwan, and the rest of us are sitting like facing them. And then they finish their meeting and they're whispering to one another. They finish the meeting and they stand up. So, we all stand up to follow them out and he points at me and he goes like this. So, I went and I said, "Yes, Your Highness." And he says, "I like your Imam."

[18:04] And I said, "I think he likes you, too." So, we all walked out. And then we got in the cars and went to the home of um this big property developer who was Cypriot. And when we got there, the Archbishop said, he gave us the land and he said we can start construction on a church immediately. >> Beautiful. >> And so, now there's an Orthodox church in Bahrain. >> And who's the bishop that it's under? >> Uh it's it's under the the uh Cypriot Archdiocese.

[18:35] >> Okay, wow. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Church of Cyprus. >> Very interesting. >> Yeah. >> Very interesting. You mentioned the Catholic Church in Bahrain a little bit. Um I guess that kind of takes us into our next question quite well. The Vatican and the CIA, there's obviously been interactions between the two parties in the past. >> decades. >> Starting after World War II, right? Um with like the Second Vatican Council, I would assume they had a hand in a lot of decisions that were made there. >> Oh, I think even before that. It was These These stories have been

[19:05] declassified now and they're making for, you know, great articles and movies, but it was the Vatican that worked with the CIA to translate a copy of Doctor Zhivago into Russian. It was written in English, translated into Russian, and then put it in the Vatican um tent at the International Book Fair in 1959. So that Russians who'd been approved to come outside of Russia to the Book Fair could

[19:36] see it, tear it into, you know, bunches of of pages, tape the pages to their legs, put their clothes back on, and smuggle them back into the Soviet Union. >> Okay. >> And that was all a joint CIA Vatican operation. >> So the CIA and the Vatican obviously are working together against Russia, it seems communism at the time, which is >> Oh, yeah. Um and the same kind of thing happened uh in 1978 with the the decision to elevate John Paul II to Pope.

[20:07] >> Okay. >> Uh he was most definitely certainly the CIA choice because he was Polish. There had never been a Polish Pope, and we really, really wanted to pressure the Soviet Union. Uh Solidarity, the the labor union in Poland, was rising up on strike at the Gdansk shipyards at the time, and we needed a Pole who was strong enough to face down, to stare down the Soviets. And John Paul was the only one. So, yeah, the US government and the CIA were instrumental in pressuring the

[20:39] College of Cardinals to choose John Paul as the Pope. >> How exactly do they pressure the College of Cardinals? Is it through bribery? Is it >> No, no, no, it's nothing so crude. Uh they're all they're all patriots for Catholicism and for the countries that they come from. And so, you know, to become a cardinal, you have to be pretty doggone smart to to begin with, and very, very political. And so, they're reading the papers every day. They know that the Soviet Union's on the brink of invading Poland and

[21:09] overthrowing the Jaruzelski government and you know, arresting Lech Walesa and you know, I mean they tried to shoot the Pope, didn't they? Or the Bulgarians did. We'll never really know what the true story was there. Um So we just go and we say, "Listen, if you want to help crash the Soviet Union, this is what you need to do." >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> Very interesting. There's also I heard you talk about in another show with um another popular Orthodox YouTuber, Operation Gladio. >> Yeah. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> Yeah, Operation Gladio, it's funny to

[21:40] me. Operation Gladio just seemed so basic and so, you know, entry-level. It I was always surprised that it took as long as it did to come out and to be declassified. But what it was was a decision by the US government to leave people behind in a lot of the countries that were liberated in the Second World War just in case somebody needed to start an uprising. Um against the Soviet Union is really what it came down to. And so there were CIA

[22:12] assets, in some cases CIA officers, who were left behind all over Europe, mostly Eastern Europe. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. And did that play any role in Italy specifically with >> Italy was the very first place that it played a role. >> Interesting. >> So in the election of 19, it was either 48 or 49. I I always I always get confused. 48 or 49 was the the CIA's very first covert action program. So they um they were authorized by Congress to

[22:43] spend $150,000 to steal the Italian election. The communists were leading in the polls. Now, it's not sophisticated, it's not sexy, it's not something special out of James Bond. All they did is they took the $150,000 and they bribed Italian reporters to to pro-conservative articles in the Italian media. >> Okay. >> And so the journalist did that and the conservative Christian Democratic Party just barely edged out the communists. The communists were more popular. The

[23:13] communists were likely going to win that election. And in the end the conservatives won it. >> Very interesting. And on this topic of the CIA influencing parties and groups within the United States, um how does the government influence or rather uh interact with other religious denominations and organizations such as >> good question. >> Yeah. >> That's kind of a tough question. There is this um oh, how should I say it? There's this uh

[23:45] there's this respect in the intelligence community for Mormons, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. >> Okay. >> Of course, as Orthodox we don't really consider them to be a Christian denomination, but God bless, whatever. The reason why there's such closeness is that most Mormons go on a mission for a year or 2 years around the time that they're 18 or 19 years old. And the Mormon Church is very, very good

[24:16] about sending them to intensive language training before they go. And they'll they'll teach you in the language of anywhere you're going. I worked with a guy in Bahrain. He was a he was the US Information Service Officer from the State Department. And um he was Mormon, but he did his mission in in Monte Carlo of all places. Monte Carlo, can you imagine? Uh but then what happens if you end up getting sent to Tajikistan

[24:48] >> Right. >> or Madagascar or, you know, Vietnam or whatever. They send you to learn the language of that country. And sometimes the language training is as long as the mission. It can even be longer than the mission. So, Mormons come out of their mission um already having these really difficult languages. And um and they don't do anything. They don't smoke, they don't drink, they don't gamble, they don't do drugs, they don't lie, they don't even eat chocolate or

[25:19] drink coffee. And so, they easily pass a polygraph and a background investigation. You don't have to train them in train them in the language because they already have it and they can just step right into the job. >> So, they become an asset instantly to the CIA. >> An officer, yeah. >> yeah, I see what you mean. >> Yeah, like an asset of the agency, yeah. >> Right, right. And would you say that the like the CIA or the government pays special interest to Orthodox groups in North America? Does that happen? >> [sighs]

[25:49] >> There are a lot of Orthodox in the intelligence community. >> Okay. >> I'm not sure why. Um maybe it's cuz we don't do anything bad. You know, who knows? I don't know. But, there was a gigantic group of Greek Americans at the at the CIA, which I was always very proud of. The US government does involve itself in Orthodox politics, which I think is absolutely horrid. >> Yeah. >> Um the State Department under Hillary Clinton was instrument instrumental in

[26:19] splitting off the Ukrainian Orthodox Church from the Russian Orthodox Church after a thousand years. >> Yeah. >> And so, now there's this I mean, for lack of a better term, there's a schism within the Orthodox Church that was created by the US government. That was a mistake. >> Mhm. Given that situation, do you think the government pays special attention to say the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia, the OCA, pro-Russian groups in general? >> There was a delegation of Ukrainian Orthodox who went to Capitol Hill a couple of months ago. And um after their visit

[26:52] some members of Congress, mostly very hardcore right-wing Republicans on Capitol Hill, made provocative statements against the Russian Orthodox Church, saying it was not a religion, it was a branch of the Russian military, that the patriarch was a criminal, just terrible things, terrible things. And they speak like they know, like with authority. But yeah, it's it was a mistake to be involved. >> On the on the topic of Orthodoxy in

[27:22] America and like Orthodoxy in the West in general, have you seen the growth of Orthodoxy in the West recently and what do you kind of think is fueling that? >> I have seen the growth of Orthodox recently and I think it's been quite dramatic, actually. There was there was a lot made in recent months about a New York Times article saying that more more um conservative Protestants are are converting to Orthodoxy than to any other faith. But the New York Times presented this in two ways. Number one, they presented

[27:53] it as if it was something new. It's not something new. It's been going on for 35 years. But number two, they presented it as if it were something bad because they said it was strengthening the manosphere because the Orthodox Church is very conservative and in some of the um in some of the the dioceses and archdioceses, women wear scarves and they have more traditional um view of marriage and and nonsense that I read as being an attempt

[28:25] to cause splits within the church. You know, saying things like, "Well, this is a church that Andrew Tate would feel comfortable in." W- W- How do you know? Did you go ask Andrew Tate if he would be comfortable in an Orthodox Church? It seemed to me to be a slap against the Orthodox Church. >> And there's this quote from St. Paisios actually where he says uh one day America will be holy. And there's this like influx of people I find the last three. It's like me and him personally, we just be we just became Orthodox like

[28:55] 2 and 1/2 years ago. >> Ah. >> And um like we're both converts. And uh we've seen plenty plenty people doing the exact same thing. A lot of parishes are growing. I feel like we're kind of in that zone that Saint Paisios was talking about. >> I think that's wonderful. I grew up in Western Pennsylvania in a small town in Western Pennsylvania called New Castle. And when I was growing up we had the Greek Orthodox Church which was the biggest. We had the Russian Orthodox Church which was second but pretty well populated. And the

[29:25] Antiochian Church that was at least as big as the Russians. But then we had the Serbo-Croatians, we had the Bulgarians, we had uh Albanians, we had all different There were like seven or eight different Orthodox churches. They're all closed now except the Greek Orthodox Church which only has 15 families left. And the Antiochian Church which probably has 30 or 40 families. Um so I I see the conversion of American Protestants

[29:57] to Orthodoxy as like the most wonderful thing for the church in America. It's wonderful. I do regret the fact that we still divide ourselves along ethnic grounds. I always believed that was a mistake. When in fact the only difference is the language in which the liturgy is is recited. So I don't know. My My mom My mom and dad were very ecumenical. And so we would all we went to all of those

[30:28] Orthodox churches. And then there was this period where we had a priest I I was a kid. I guess starting around when I was nine until I was 14, we had a priest who just was not in his right mind. And so we started going to the Antiochian church. They had not just church, but they had a school, St. Herman's school, named after St. Herman of of Alaska. And I'm still friends with those people. 50 years later. Uh so it was it was a big deal. There was no reason not to go from church to

[30:58] church. And then during Holy Week, I'm sorry, not during Holy Week, but during Lent, they would have pre-sanctified liturgy, each church taking a different turn. And then as they started to die off and close, the Russian church just closed last week. >> Wow. >> And there was a just an awful, terrible, sad front-page story um about St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church of New Castle, Pennsylvania and Father Richard Salley. Um Father Salley

[31:30] became the priest there when he was 38, I think, or 28. And now he's 83. And he's still there. He was the second priest. And now he closed it down. Sent all the icons to the um to the archdiocese. Very sad. >> Would you agree that with for Orthodoxy to survive and thrive in North America, we would need to kind of break down those barriers of jurisdictional >> 100% yes. >> cultural things, yeah. >> 100%. And and I'm saying as a Greek Orthodox, it's always been my experience

[32:01] that it was the it was the Greeks who were the most resistant to that. >> Yes. All right. Well, this was kind of um maybe a more light-hearted topic that we were just talking about, giving us hope for the future, but there's there is something right now going on in the Middle East. Obviously there's a war there. Um and it's it's politics are seeping into American foreign policy in the current American administration. And I mean specifically Zionism, that idea. And there are now Christian groups that are picking up this idea of Zionism and

[32:33] making it um trying to make it biblical and biblically sound. >> it's not. >> And it's not. >> There's literally nothing in scripture to support Zionism. Nothing. >> I would argue it's theology is anti-orthodox because it >> I would agree without any reservation. >> The way it negatively impacts the people in the Middle East, right? And how have you seen that really in your time there? >> You know, in the not-too-distant past, Palestine used to be 10% Christian. And now almost all of those Christians

[33:04] live in Michigan because they were forced out. >> Yeah. >> What the Israeli government has done in Palestine, not just to Christians, but to the Muslims as well, is literally the definition of ethnic cleansing. You force people out of their ancestral land and just take it by force. Uh we see it every day, literally every day in the West Bank. We see it in Gaza. But this conflict in Gaza has brought out the worst, I think, in the Israelis.

[33:35] You know, when 24 women and children take refuge in St. Porphyrios Church in Gaza, the oldest continuously operating church on the planet, and the Israelis then bomb it using fighter jets, killing all 24 women and children, we've got a problem. I don't understand how these poor, deluded, misguided American evangelicals think that supporting Zionism is somehow supporting Christ and

[34:07] Christianity. It's anti-Christian. I saw an Orthodox priest um on a podcast a couple of days ago saying that it is Israel that is the Antichrist. Right? Because what is an Antichrist? An Antichrist is someone who acts in opposition to the teachings of Christ. It's that simple. It's not a guy with horns and a 666 on his head. It's people acting in opposition to Christianity and the teachings of Christ. And we're seeing it every day in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

[34:39] >> Sure. On the kind of topic of the government kind of pushing stuff, um in a lot of our circles, we have a lot of people who are really interested in um kind of like Western propaganda in movies and things like that. So, in your time uh at the CIA, did you kind of see that propaganda machine at work actively? >> Every day. >> What kind of >> There's even a word for it. It's called active measures. Yeah. It can be something as stupid as a pirate radio station in Yemen playing jazz

[35:11] so that young Yemeni men will say, "Wow, what cool music. That makes me want to be pro-American." That was actually >> Wow. >> an operation. Yeah. Um so, yeah, you see it every single day. And 99 times out of 100, it's a stupid idea. >> Yeah. >> Do you see it in like CI like sorry, uh Hollywood movies that come out today? >> Oh my gosh, yes. This is something that the CIA was late to to the game with. Starting in the late 1930s, the FBI forged this uh

[35:42] relationship with Hollywood so that literally everything that came out of Hollywood having to do with the FBI was pro-FBI. Right? G Man and uh The Untouchables and you know, all these movies and and TV series, they were all over the top pro-FBI. The CIA didn't start doing that until relatively recently. Like around 9/11. They they had worked with studios in the past, but they set up a dedicated branch within the Office of Public Affairs

[36:13] just to liaise with Hollywood studios so that everything that comes out of Hollywood that is CIA related is pro-CIA. Like Zero Dark Thirty, for example. Zero Dark Thirty caused so many problems because it perpetuated the lie that torture led to the location of Osama bin Laden. It did not. Really great analysis led to the location of Osama bin Laden. Uh but

[36:45] Kathryn Bigelow, the the director and producer of uh Zero Dark Thirty, and Mark Boal, the writer and producer of Zero Dark Thirty, received classified briefings over a classified mock-up of the bin Laden compound. How is that not a violation of the Espionage Act? Providing national defense information to any person not entitled to receive it. It's as simple as that. And then in in repayment every CIA analyst or operations officer

[37:18] that worked with the writer and the director got an invitation to the to the premiere in Hollywood. And if they couldn't make it, they got a watch. Okay, that's also illegal. You can't do that. You can't accept any gift worth more than $25. And they did it anyway. And then Leon Panetta invited them to a classified speech that he gave in the CIA auditorium, the bubble, in which he outed the names of the six Navy SEALs

[37:50] that killed Osama bin Laden. Later saying, "Oh, my bad. I didn't know they were in the audience." You invited them to the audience. How is that not a violation of the Espionage Act? But there's this overwhelming desire to be made to look like the good guys that they just wantonly break the law to get there. >> Kind of to uh pivot a little bit. So, I had a personal question again. Um I've heard you be relatively I guess anti-monarchy, at least modern monarchies. Um I'm wondering how you

[38:20] square kind of being pro-democracy with like Byzantine symphonia and that kind of Orthodox idea of monarchy? >> Well, that's a great question. And I am a staunch like a militant supporter of the Byzantine Empire. >> [laughter] >> I admit it. I even own a Byzantine I own a 10th century Byzantine hand grenade. >> What? >> It's made out of mud in the shape of a fish with crosses on it. >> Wow. >> Uh-huh.

[38:51] Uh I bought it at a at an antiquities auction in London. >> That's interesting. >> Um back then people weren't educated, they weren't literate. They they couldn't you know lead themselves. There were you know parts of the world that tried and anarchy ensued and the church was really the guiding light back in those early centuries. And so yeah, I had no I had no problem with with Byzantium or with with royal Constantinople after that. But I'm also

[39:22] staunchly opposed to the to the Greek royal family which has not one drop of Greek blood. They're Bavarian and Danish. Thank you very much. >> Yeah. >> You're welcome to stay in Bavaria and Denmark. And um and yeah, I've been taking it on the chin lately for my opposition to the return of the Iranian so-called royal family. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I heard you talking about that specifically in in a podcast. Your

[39:53] opposition to it. Um where does that like opposition to monarchy stem from? I guess monarchy in the modern world. Are we too far advanced for maybe monarchy now and democracy is the best form of government? >> I think so. >> Okay. >> My my grandparents were all over the map politically when they were living in Greece. My my father's father was a Republican with a small R supporting Eleftherios Venizelos, the founder of modern Greece. >> Okay. >> And uh my grandmother was a royalist. She loved the royal family.

[40:24] Even though they never learned how to speak Greek, which is so offensive. I can't even believe we have to talk about it. >> Yeah. >> Um on the other side, my um my mother's parents were anti-fascist activists. And so they hated everything about the monarchy. I will add one thing. It's something that I'm not certain of. I really want it to be true, and I'm going to engage a professional a professional to check it out. A couple

[40:54] of years ago, I took a 23andMe test. And um when I got my results back, I went on to look at it. It's what you might think, you know, the Greek islands, uh southern Greece, Cyprus, the Greek parts of Anatolia along the Black Sea, Pontos, and you know, it's all Greek. But it said that I was a cousin of Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh. >> Wow. >> So I emailed him through 23andMe. And he must have been like

[41:25] in 23andMe when I emailed him, cuz he answered me immediately. I said, "Your Eminence, do you have any idea how we might be uh related?" And he said, immediately, he said, "Let's see if we could figure this out." Um he said, "I'm from Chios, but my family was originally from Patmos." And I said, "Ah, my family's from Rhodes, but my grandmother says that on my grandfather's mother's That's not true. My grandfather's father's side, we were originally from Patmos." And he said,

[41:56] "Oh, that must be it. Do you know anything about your family in Patmos?" I said, "Yeah, actually, our our last name is not Kyriakou. Our last name was Christodoulou." And um You too? >> No, we There's a monk that You know Father Christodoulos from um Denver, Colorado. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a he's on uh YouTube all the time. >> [laughter] >> So, I said my great-great-grandfather was arrested for stealing a potato. He was starving and he stole a potato and

[42:26] he got caught. And when he went to court, they asked him his name and he said Marcos. Marcos what? Marcos Doukiriakou. Uh Mark, the son of Charles. And they wrote Mark Kiriakou and he just never fixed it and we became Kiriakou. So, I said, "The only thing that my grandmother used to talk about is that we were descended from a very wealthy man who was very religious and he was a landowner in Patmos and he traded his land in Patmos for the cave where Saint

[42:57] John received the revelation." And he said, "You're talking about Agios Christodoulos, Saint Christodoulos. So, you would be Doukristodoulou, the children of Christodoulos." And I said, "Hey, descended from a saint?" >> wow. >> I'd like to I'd like to try to prove that. So, he referred me to a guy named John Daskalakis. John and I became Facebook friends. He's a he's a full-time Greek-only

[43:28] genealogist. And I haven't had the money to hire him yet, but I'm getting there. And he has [snorts] access to the Ottoman tax cadastres going back to the 15th century. So, I'm going to ask if he can try to figure it out. >> You kind of touched on this in the beginning a little bit, but the idea that your spirituality played a big part in um your time at the CIA. And you mentioned something in your in a previous podcast. You said, "We thought we were the good guys." >> Yes. >> Right?

[43:58] Did did your faith play a role in that idea and like >> Absolutely, yes. >> Okay. >> Absolutely, positively, yes. >> Elaborate on that. >> Either we're to live according to the principles that we profess to live by, or we're not. I say this all the time. Ronald Reagan said in the 1984 Republican Convention that the United States was a shining city on a hill. We were a beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties.

[44:30] But we're not. >> Mhm. >> We like to tell people we are. We say it all the time. In 1977, Congress mandated that the State Department produce every year a human rights report for every country on Earth with which we have diplomatic relations. I was the human rights officer both in Kuwait and in Bahrain. I took it very seriously. And so, as an example, it's an example I use all the time. I once had to go to the Minister of Interior and say, "Your

[45:01] Highness, you cannot beat to death a 15-year-old child because he marched in a pro-democracy demonstration. I have to report that to Congress, and it's going to jeopardize your weapons purchases. You got to stop doing that. You can't just beat people to death because you don't like their politics." But then I say, "What happens then when hypothetically speaking, the CIA station chief goes in and says,

[45:31] 'Don't listen to the human rights guy. We'll give you $10 million if if you set up a torture chamber and you torture people for us, and then you just give us a transcript of what they say.' You know, are we going to be the good guys? Or are we not going to be the good Are we going to be the shining city on the hill? Or are we going to be the country that runs torture chambers and secret prisons and does international secret kidnappings and sends out

[46:03] assassination squads cuz we can't be both. >> You can't be both. You have You can't be lukewarm, right? You have to be hot or cold. Um choose one and I'm assuming that orthodoxy in the Orthodox faith played a huge role in your decision to whistle blow at the end of the day, right? >> It really, really did. >> Okay. >> I say all the time, too, that at the CIA the culture is such that they want you to think that everything is a shade of gray, right? And that's just not true. Some things are black and white. They're

[46:34] either right or wrong. And so we should do what's right. And if you don't like the law, let's say you and I disagree about torture and you want to torture. Okay, knock yourself out, but you have to change the law >> Mhm. >> because the law is clear. You can't just pretend that the law doesn't apply to you or pretend that the law doesn't exist or pretend that the law says exactly the opposite of what it actually says in black and white. That's just not real life. >> Now John, we have our final few segments

[47:07] here in the show. Thank you again for all your answers. They've been spectacular. >> My pleasure. >> Um I would say at the end of our show we we like to conclude with a quick fire segment. I think it gives us the opportunity gives you the opportunity to kind of just say the first thing that comes to your mind, right? So for the first question um I'm going to say a list of names and you're going to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind. Vladimir Putin.

[47:39] >> [laughter] >> Baptized. >> Okay. Donald Trump. >> Confused. >> George W. Bush. >> Clueless. >> Benjamin Netanyahu. >> The Antichrist. >> Tucker Carlson. >> One of the sweetest, most genuine men I've ever met in my life. >> And finally, Piers Morgan.

[48:11] >> Respect. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I like and respect Piers. >> Good. Who would you handpick as the next president if you could? >> Tucker Carlson. I really would. Tucker and I disagree on a lot of issues, but I've come to know the guy very well, and he is as honest as the day is long. >> In preparing for this interview, we actually were practicing this question, and he assumed you would say that, which was funny. Um >> I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago, and I said I said

[48:41] I always tell him he should run for president. And he's like, "No, no, no, no, I'm not interested." And then I went up there the other day, and I said I I'd spoken to a mutual friend, and I know that the mutual friend had told him, "You You have to run for president." So I said to him, "Listen, I know I say it all the time, and I know you heard it from our friend the other day, but you have to run for president." And much to my shock, he said, "I have no plans to run for president."

[49:12] And I was like, "Yes! The non-denial denial." >> [laughter] >> You've mentioned um you read Dostoevsky in prison. >> Yeah, I did. >> What's your favorite Dostoevsky book? >> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. >> And what saints do you have a close relationship with? >> My closest relationship is with Saint Nectarios. I keep him uh as close to me as possible. I I'll tell you something funny. Um

[49:43] When I first arrived in Greece in uh 1998, I had to do a joint thing with the Greek uh my Greek counterparts. And it happened to be on the island of Aegina. And so, they said, "Look, we don't know if the sea is going to be smooth that day or if it's going to be choppy, so we should go really early just in case it's choppy." I said, "Great." So, we went like 6 hours earlier than we needed to. And this the sea was like glass. So, we had 6 extra hours to kill. And one of the Greeks said, "Have you ever

[50:13] been to uh Saint Nectarios' house?" And I said, "Oh my gosh, I totally forgot Nectarios was from Aegina." So, he said, "Let's go up there." So, we went. I've since been at least 15 times since then, but this was my first time. And um I'm going to sound like like I'm crazy, but you know, his tomb is there, but most of his relics have been scattered. We have some of his relics in our own church in Falls Church, Virginia, Saint Catherine's.

[50:44] But, the legend is if you put your ear on the tomb, you can hear scratching coming from the inside. >> Right. >> You could hear the scratching. Like clear as day. I don't know what the heck it was. >> They say it's his cane, right? >> His cane? >> Yeah. >> That's that's right. So, anyway, um we went to to the the mother superior who runs the convent there. And they said, "We're from, you know, the the Greek intelligence service and we're here with uh Baligadi, Orthodox American, Greek

[51:17] American. Um can you give us a tour?" She was so kind. She took us into his house, which you're normally only allowed to go like into the dining room. >> Okay. >> And um there are pictures of his family all over the walls from the late 19th century. But, um but she let me sit on his bed. Like everything is just the way he left it when he died. She let me sit on his bed. And then, we go past the tomb, his crown is there in the little chapel and his

[51:48] staff. And then, you know, there are icons and you can light a candle. Oh, this is the funny part. So, so, everybody was pulling out a 100 drachma coin, which at the time was like 24 cents and you put in so you could light a candle. I didn't have any change. I only had a 5,000 drachma. So, what's 5,000? It was like 20 bucks. >> Okay. >> 20 something bucks. And I thought, ah,

[52:18] it's for the it's for the convent, right? Or for the church. So, I just put in the 5,000. One of the Greeks saw me. And um he told me later, he said, you know, we we knew about you from when you first arrived. When when we saw you, we you didn't know we were watching. We saw you put 5,000 drachmas in the tray at church. We knew you were one of us. And so, I have like the most glorious experience in in Greece working alongside the Greeks because they

[52:50] trusted me because I was Orthodox. >> Right. >> And uh and I made a $20 donation to the to Saint Nectarios's church. Um I've got a buddy who um he lives here in the Washington area, Greek Orthodox from Kalamata. And he asked me if I'd been to uh Ayion Oros to Mount Athos. I said, oh, yeah, it was amazing and and I can't wait to go back. in 2006. He said, oh, I went in He went in like 1982

[53:21] or something like that. And I said, that's cool. He said, no, this is cool. And he shows me a picture of himself with Saint Paisios. >> What? >> And Paisios is giving him his prayer rope. And I was like, are you kidding me? >> Does he still >> me He let me hold it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. >> Very interesting. It's a relic, then. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's is literally it's a relic. >> That's fascinating. What about other than St. Nectarios? Like, are there any other saints you just have a good attachment to? >> When I was born, my grandmother gave me

[53:52] her grandfather's um icon of St. John the Baptist, which I revere and have in my bedroom. And will give to my children and grandchildren. From I don't know. 1800, I guess it was painted. My great-grandfather had his name on the back. Uh so, John the Baptist was always important. And um you know, it's funny. I have all of the the like box sets of all the Orthodox saints. I love that stuff. I take strength from that. Or the teachings of the early church fathers.

[54:23] Um but I I really like reading about the obscure saints. I think there's so much we can learn from them. Everybody knows Basil the Great, you know, Gregory the Theologian, John the Baptist, John Chrysostom. We all know them. We hear them, you know, every Sunday in church. But what about Agia Markella? Uh from Chios. Uh she um she's the patron saint of Chios. And my first wife was from was

[54:55] a Chiotissa. And so, we went to the village of Agia Markella, which is like you can't get any farther away from civilization and still be on the island. And then there's this village with a church, and there's a pool of water where her father beheaded her. >> Whoa. Okay. >> Yeah. And every year on her saint's day, the water turns orange and bubbles spontaneously. >> Wow. >> You can actually see it happening. It's the craziest thing. So, I mean, how many non-Greek Orthodox, or really

[55:26] non-Chiotis, really know about the life of Agia Markella? I went to uh I went to Cairo with my wife and kids. We went to the Christian quarter uh to see the actual the actual wheel and spikes that St. Catherine the Great was uh was uh executed on. >> Yep. >> You can see the basement basement. It's just a dungeon, a hole in the ground

[55:56] where the Holy Family uh fled, according to one of the Gospels, uh to escape Herod's uh order to to kill all of the firstborn males. >> Mhm. >> There's just a lot out there. I went to Damascus with the CIA and was able to see the head of John the Baptist, which is in a in a silver coffin in the uh Umayyad Mosque. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> It's in a mosque? >> It's in a mosque. >> Cuz they revere him, too, right? >> Yeah, they revere him, too. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> Interesting. Out of all the podcasts you've been on,

[56:26] which one stands out as your favorite? >> You know, I always feel like I have the best most natural exchanges with Tucker Carlson. The one that really made me famous was Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett. That was a That was an unusually deep conversation. But the one that I've enjoyed the most, it's going to sound a little nutty, is with a guy named Jay Dyer. Uh Jay's a recent convert, relatively recent convert to Orthodoxy, and is

[56:56] deeply steeped in the faith. And we talked for 2 hours and never stopped talking about Orthodoxy. >> We honestly we can't even lie, we probably converted because of Jay. >> He's wonderful, and he's just a great human being on top of it. >> Absolutely. Your conversation with him was two It was two conversations, yeah. >> had two. Yeah, I interviewed him and he interviewed me. >> They were amazing. Great pod Honestly, helped us a lot with with this, I will say. >> Wow, great. >> So, it was Jay's uh we're big fans of Jay, absolutely. >> Um

[57:27] I have one final question for you, probably maybe in terms of quick fire. I think a lot of people are wondering this. Maybe, do you believe in aliens? >> [laughter] >> When I was 17 years old >> When you were 17? >> I I've I've told this story before. Well, when I was 17 years old, my mom and dad bought a restaurant in the next town north of us, Sharon, Pennsylvania. We lived in New Castle. It took about It

[57:57] was about 15 miles. And to go from New Castle to Sharon, you had to go through Amish country. And the Amish don't use electricity, so it's very very dark. My dad and I used to work midnight shift on Friday nights and Saturday nights from 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. And so, we would leave at 10:15, get there around 10:40, get situated, you know, have a Coke, and uh start working. So, one night, Friday night, we're we just get into Amish country,

[58:30] right outside of town, and we're on Pennsylvania Route 60, which is now Route 376, and we see this absolutely brilliant blinding flash of white light, blinding. Not high up off the ground, maybe I'd say 1,200 1,500 ft off the ground. And then there's a second flash, and then the third flash, and I said to him, "What is that?" And as soon as I said that, this orange saucer

[59:00] just lights up. It's got a bright round orange light in each of the four at each of the four angles. >> [laughter] >> And it's just hovering there. And he pulls the car over. We're not even saying anything. He pulls the car over, we get out, we're looking at this thing. And this guy pulls up behind us, gets out of his car, and he goes, "What is that?" And we said, "We don't know." And then it just goes at this fantastic speed that just defies the laws of physics.

[59:32] >> Wow. >> And we we're standing there waiting for it. Is it going to come back? We don't know. So, we get back in the car. We We stood there, I don't know, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. We get back in the car. And uh I said to him, "Should we like call somebody? Should we call the cops or something?" I was 17. >> Mhm. >> And he said, "And tell them what? We're driving down the road, we saw a flying saucer, and it flew away. They're going to think we're crazy people." >> Yeah. >> So, we didn't tell anybody. We told my mom the next day.

[1:00:04] We saw something that night. But then, you know, you look at some of these ancient icons, and they've got Have you ever seen the icon where the it looks like there's a man in a spaceship and he has his hand on a control? >> I have. >> I've seen that one. I've also seen it in a lot of the uh in a lot of the icons. You see like the when they're showing the power of the Holy Spirit come down, it looks similar to a saucer. >> Yes. >> Really does at the top. I thought >> that before, too. >> The The church hierarchs hate when people talk about that because they say, "No, it's not an alien or a flying saucer. It is a an early depiction of

[1:00:35] the sun with an angel." Like, okay, well, maybe. It looks like a guy operating a spaceship to me. I'm going to see if I can find one and show it to you. >> I think I've seen that one on the internet, too. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> Do you think in the meantime that the government plays a role in like technology like that? They have some kind of advanced form of technology >> That That's what DARPA's for. DARPA is the Defense Advanced Research Program. >> Mhm. >> Um and they're the ones that are supposed to be working on all the super futuristic technology. So, I mean, it

[1:01:06] could be that it could be that. It could be the Chinese, you know, with their own DARPA. It could be our scientists are so far advanced than what we know, it's highly classified, they don't want to tell us. Um who knows? I don't know. I To answer your question, do I believe in aliens? I honestly don't know. >> Okay. >> I saw something that night. I don't know. It maybe it was a balloon. I don't know. Didn't look like any balloon I've ever seen. >> So, next we ask the fans some questions. Reminder, when you hear one, we didn't write this ourselves. We just collected

[1:01:37] what people said. Okay. So, if you weren't a CIA agent before, of course, what career would you choose? >> Oh, you know, I I kind of semi joke a lot that, you know, oh, I should have just gone to film school. And I think maybe I should have gone to film school. Yeah. >> Do you think this is crazy? Do you think there are cases where the torture program was beneficial or worked at some point? >> No. No, and I'll I'll tell you why. >> I had that last question, too. >> The prisoner will tell you literally anything he thinks you want to know just

[1:02:09] to get you to stop torturing him. He'll tell you anything. You know, John McCain broke under torture. And you know, when asked who the members of his unit were, he named the starting offensive line of the Green Bay Packers. And they just wrote it all down. So. And then you've got to take all this garbage that the prisoner's given you and give it to your analyst to figure it out. It takes them 6 months to separate the the truth from the fiction. And by then, you know, the bomb's gone off and everybody's dead, so it didn't matter in

[1:02:39] the first place. >> Yeah. This one's big for people, you know, back in Canada. Does the CIA operate in Canada? And if yes, how so? >> No. Canada is one of the Five Eyes countries. It's the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. So, they do not spy on each other under any circumstances. And they share literally everything that they collect. >> Well, John, this has been an amazing interview. Um it's been an honor. Thank you for coming on the show, honestly. >> From the bottom of >> Sorry that you guys had a rough start

[1:03:10] out front. >> out out front, but we made it here, thank God. Um do you have any final word for the audience? >> Final word for the audience. You know, people are going to people are going to mock you and your beliefs over life over the course of your life. Uh I still am inexplicably compelled to read the comments uh on videos that are posted of interviews that I've done. I shouldn't. Uh people say horrible, terrible, cruel

[1:03:41] things. Don't let it wear you down. You know, believe what you believe and go with it and if it brings you peace, inner peace, and happiness, that's the way to live your life. >> And where can the viewers find you online? >> Oh, thanks. I'm starting a new uh podcast in the next couple weeks. If you go to YouTube, uh my my username is real John Kiriakou. The The new podcast is going to be called uh John Kiriakou's Briefing Room. I have one podcast that's been going now for two seasons called John Kiriakou's

[1:04:15] Dead Drop. That's on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and it's one of the I still can't believe it. It's one of the top 200 podcasts in the world. There are 6 million podcasts in the world and I'm in the top 200. So, it's really taken on a life of its own. It's really been great. >> Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've reached the end of the interview. We want to thank you for turning tuning into The Third Way and we'll see you next time.
