Title: John Kiriakou: The Truth About America's Prison System
Show: The Deep Focus Show
Date: 2026-07-04
URL: https://youtu.be/djGUiuyziYE
Duration: 30:00

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[00:00] because I have a federal felony conviction, I lost my gun rights for life. Well, the governor of Virginia, when I got out of prison, uh Governor Terry McAuliffe, God bless this man, I had not even applied for a state pardon because I hadn't committed a state crime, but he followed my case, he thought I'd been wronged, and he issued me a pardon. It was symbolic, but it technically reinstated my state gun rights, but I still don't have my federal gun rights. So, if I go out to the Dulles Expo

[00:30] Center on Saturday to the gun show, which is there every weekend, >> Yeah. >> and I buy [clears throat] a gun, I'm perfectly within my rights, according to the state of Virginia. But, at the federal level, a felon with a gun is a mandatory minimum 5-year sentence. I could get 8 years >> Wow. >> just for being in possession of a gun. >> Do you think you're still watched now, waiting for you to trip up so that they so that I I probably didn't want to I do want to ask this. Do you think you're still getting watched now and waiting

[01:01] for you to do anything, to slip up, anything? Or have you got to such a point now where they're worried about maybe the influence that you have, and also the intelligence that you have, because you clearly won a lot of case, you know, won a lot of stuff from the prison, well letters from Loretta. >> I did. You know, I I'm very proud to say that a few weeks ago the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons called me and asked me if I would serve on an informal advisory council to advise him on how to reform the

[01:32] Bureau of Prisons. >> Wow. >> I said, "Absolutely yes." I said, "But I don't think you're going to succeed." I said, "Your problem is corruption. You guys are corrupt from the very top to the very bottom and everybody in between, and the first thing you're going to have to do, and I'm saying this as a lifelong union member and pro-union activist, the first thing you're going to have to do is to break that union." >> Wow. >> Cuz all it does is support corruption. And you'll never get it done, let alone done in the next 2 and 1/2 years. >> What did he say? >> He said, "You're probably right, but let's meet and talk about it."

[02:04] >> Yeah. >> He started off the conversation by saying, "You've been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for the last 10 years." I said, "Correction, I've been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for the last 13 years." >> to say, "And rightly so." I said, >> And I said, "Because the whole system is corrupt and broken." >> Do you know what? There was There's times we were driving down the roads and there were some of them had happened and then the Bureau of Prisons would screw you over and you didn't get your You didn't get out and my wife would go, "Those bastards! I can't believe they did that." She never swears or anything, you know. She's like, "Oh my god, that's

[02:35] horrible." You know, she'd go nuts. >> They're horrible. They really are. >> Believe it. And And this And this is the problem and I think, you know, where does this start? And here's the thing that I want to do is is not I mean just what we can do even we have lawyer with different, you know, hundreds of lawyers that are that are maybe listening to this listen to this podcast in our network. Maybe something's going to tweak that they can start to look at this change, but you're saying there's probably not going to be change. >> No. I don't think they'll there will be change. >> What would you like to see in What would be an ideal situation for you, John, for

[03:07] the transformation of the prison reform? What would you think would What's the minimal thing you're saying would change the direction of it? >> Of the Bureau of Prisons? I If If you could handle corruption, if you could address corruption, it would change everything. But there are so many different moving parts involved in addressing corruption. >> Uh >> First of all, the only qualifications to be a a prison guard in the United States prison guard now >> correctional officer >> A prison guard? >> is you have to be

[03:38] at least working on a GED. You don't even need a high school education, just working on a GED and no felony convictions. That's it. Um there's a rule in the Bureau of Prisons that prisoners may not hand out the mail. But the prisoners always hand out the mail. Do you know why? >> No, why? Cuz they don't >> Cuz the guards can't read. >> Come on. >> The guards can't read. >> Serious. >> And so they can't hand out the mail. So the prisoners do it. It's that bad. >> It's that bad.

[04:08] >> There there was something that happened when I was at Loretto, FCI Loretto, where um the there's a minimum security camp across the street, and you're sort of on your honor not to run away, and you have to follow the rules. Well, some of these prisoners, against the rules, got some money, you're not allowed to have cash, and they ordered a pizza. And um when the pizza man came to drop off the pizza, he knows that there were other prisoners who were in the woods walking away from the prison. So he went across the street to the actual prison and said, "Listen, I'm the

[04:39] pizza delivery guy, and not only did your prisoners order pizzas, but there were a couple of other prisoners who um were walking away. They're walking down the highway." And the guards ran down there and caught them. They almost instantly hired the pizza delivery man to be a guard. His only qualification was that he had two eyes, and they both worked. And he could read, apparently. And so he's the new prison guard. >> So do you think that that there should

[05:09] be changed to how prison guards are hired and and trained? >> Oh, yeah, I do. I think there should be there should be huge changes. Uh for example, uh they're they're grotesquely underpaid. >> Mhm. >> I I was being taken out to um to a um an orthopedist. I had broken my pinky finger. So uh >> Oh, yeah, I remember you saying that in the book. >> Yeah, actually it was this pinky finger.

[05:40] Yeah, I broke my pinky finger. There So they they chained me, shackled me, my ankles, around my waist, my wrists, everything. I'm shackled. I can take a little baby step at a time. And um And uh they put me in the van and one of them they were two two in the in the front, a driver and passenger. And one of them said, "I got passed over for a promotion again." And the other one said, "You still haven't gotten that four?" And like it's any of my business, I said, "You're a GS4?" He said, "No, I got a I got passed over

[06:12] for a four. I'm a three." I said, "How do you feed yourself?" And he said, "Why?" He's making at the time, this is 10 years ago, he's probably making 20 or 22,000 dollars a year. >> Oh, jeez. >> And I He said, "Why? What were you?" I said, "I was a 15 and so was my wife. And we still had trouble making ends meet." >> What the hell? >> A three. It's no wonder they all live in this trailer park up the road from the from the prison and then they're bragging, "Well, I have a double wide. You only have a single wide."

[06:42] Yeah, I mean, this is how bad it is. >> I don't understand. >> But getting back to the issue of corruption, um and this is something that I told the the BOP uh director was, you know, when when the commissary gets a shipment of Pop-Tarts, like an entire pallet of Pop-Tarts, we're talking about 5,000 dollars worth of Pop-Tarts. >> Yeah. >> And then the guard backs up his Ford F-150 pickup truck and loads the entire pallet onto the pickup truck and takes it back to his double wide and sells it on Facebook Marketplace or on eBay.

[07:13] That's unacceptable. >> That is unacceptable. >> with 10,000 dollars worth of batteries. Or with, you know, extension cords or, you know, bags of tuna or whatever. They steal everything. >> Because they're because they're untrained and they're undisciplined and they don't have any >> And and they're underpaid. >> And they're underpaid because they need to survive. >> Yeah. That was it. >> That's crazy. Do you So you mentioned as well in your book that there's a big problem in the in in health.

[07:44] >> Huge. >> Right? And I think that's another thing that the the beauty of prisons need to look at because that was a few other you know shocking moments that you know made my wife scream. Um >> Yeah. >> The way you were treated with just even your your own your your pink key and other people were treated people and I have to say as well John I mean it was quite shocking. People dying that didn't need to die. >> Yeah. It happened all the time. >> They they don't not treated like human beings and this

[08:14] is a big issue in the prisons. >> And then you have the warden going to a terminally ill patient and saying if you sign a document promising not to sue us, we'll let you go and die at home. And he said no and he died in in a steel bunk all alone. >> Do you feel that Did you get any backlash about your book from the prison service when I got I had to ask this because you didn't hold back like you freaking let them rip. >> And I told them bring it because I'm not afraid of you. >> Wow.

[08:45] >> The warden repeatedly threatened me with solitary. Repeatedly. And I laughed at him once. We were standing in the hall right by the the mail room and he told me if you don't stop writing this book, I'm going to put you in solitary and I'm not going to let you out. And I said, "Oh please." I told him. I said, "Warden I've gone nose to nose with Al-Qaeda, with Hezbollah, with the Iranians and I'm supposed to be afraid of you?" >> I just >> [laughter] >> yeah. >> Please. I said, "Give me a little credit." I said, "I lived in Yemen

[09:16] >> Yeah. >> Pakistan, Afghanistan. I'm not afraid of Loretto, Pennsylvania." >> Wow. Do you think that it was Do you think they were frightened of you then? >> Yeah. Well I I'll tell you why. So my best friend was an Italian, Mark. And >> didn't have a lot of yeah you didn't have a lot >> I just talked to him yesterday. He's He's like a brother like a brother to me. And so um So Mark was talking to the one guard that everybody hated the most. Not me, I

[09:46] never had any interaction with this guy. He stayed on his side of the fence and I stayed on mine. But um he went by the by the nickname Blue. He was the only person that covered up his name tag with with masking tape. He didn't want anybody to know his name. He was also the only guard that wore a stab vest because he was so cruel, he was afraid somebody was going to legitimately take a shot at him and stabbing him. >> So Mark was talking to Blue one day and he said, "Blue, where are you going to be for the next uh quarter?" And he said, "Oh, I'm going to be over in Central 1 unit." And Mark said, "My

[10:16] friend John is in Central 1." And Blue said, "The CIA guy? I never mess with that guy." And Mark said, "Really? Why?" And he said, "That's all I need. I work 8 hours here and then I go out to my car and CNN standing next to it? No, thanks." >> Jeez. >> So what I did is I filed a Freedom of Information Act request on myself. Much to my surprise, I got it 6 weeks later. It was mostly garbage. It was 250 pages. About 20 pages were important. And there was one from several days

[10:47] before I arrived in the prison. It was a memo from the warden to all employees and it said subject arriving inmate John Kiriakou. And then in these giant block letters, it just says caution inmate has access to the media. >> I think though that was a blessing for you. I mean, I'm listening and I'm like you if he didn't have that access, if he wasn't in the media, his life would have been worse. He would have been They would It would have been like a Russian gulag. >> Without a without a doubt. Without a doubt. >> would have disappeared essentially,

[11:19] gone. >> Yep. >> So I think I think your media presence was the the And who knows? Maybe it is going to be the thing that that will help to change, especially now that you're talking with uh, the director of prisons. What do you think the the What do you think lawyers need to try and understand from your case and from your history? Your experiences there because it seems to me that the lawyers really don't understand that they don't know enough of what's going on. >> They don't. >> there to fight a case and that's it. But should they be getting more involved? >> Oh, I think they should. I'll give you

[11:49] another example, a very recent example. Um, about 3 weeks ago, Senator Mike Lee went on to X, Twitter. And he said that a constituent of his in Utah called his office in a panic because they had a son in the Bureau of Prisons and the son all of a sudden just dropped out of contact. Uh, emails aren't being answered. Nobody at the prison will give any information. So, Senator Lee picked up the phone and called the

[12:20] prison and said, "I'm Senator Mike Lee of Utah. I'm calling about my constituent so-and-so." >> Yeah. >> And the voice on the other end at the prison says, "You have a lot of [ __ ] nerve calling here." and hung up on him. A sitting US Senator. >> That's crazy. >> So, I tweeted at him and I said, "Senator, I think I can help you on this." I got a call minutes later from his chief of staff. And I said, "I think the constituent is in something called diesel therapy."

[12:50] "What is that?" >> Yeah, I never >> the guy asks. And I said, "Whenever a prisoner is deemed to be a problem, like me, I was a problem, and they threatened me with diesel therapy. >> Right. >> do I'll I'll give you a a a made-up example starting at FCI Loretto where I was. >> Yeah. >> They'll take you to Loretto from Loretto and they put you on the prison bus. And the prison bus goes to a prison in a maximum security prison in northeastern Pennsylvania where you just sit and wait for the next transfer. And then from

[13:21] there, they take you to Harrisburg. From Harrisburg, they put you on Conair. You know, the the BOP >> move >> around. So, you're you're literally you're not traceable. You're just >> Because when you're in what's called transportation status, you're not permitted access to a phone, >> Or to >> or to even a pen and paper. And literally no one has any idea where you are. And they can keep you in transportation status for years. Transfer you to Atlanta, from Atlanta to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City to Yankton, South Dakota, South Dakota to Las Vegas,

[13:53] Las Vegas to Lompoc. They'll they'll just transfer you every couple of days, every couple of weeks, for the rest of your sentence. And nobody has any idea where you are. >> Wow. >> Because they know they can get away with it. And so, we need lawyers to like step up, file injunctions, flood the courts, make the BOP respond. They have to put an end to it. >> I've noticed that. They I don't seem to do it. I've got a friend of mine who's a criminal lawyer. And >> Because there's no money involved. >> Huh?

[14:23] >> There's no money involved. Poor people can't pay legal bills. >> See, that's the problem. And again, it boils down to this it boils down to money. >> Yeah. >> It boils down to business, and they can't defend themselves. >> I you know what? I I think the same. >> A lot of people go that are Yeah, I might get it. Look, prisons are there for a reason. If you're a really bad guy and you [ __ ] up, you're going to go in and you're going to be right. >> There are some people who go society needs to be protected. >> Yeah. >> Pedophiles, the murderers, the violent people, the rapists, the drug traffickers. Yeah. We need to be protected from those people. Sure. >> Absolutely. I would agree with that. But

[14:53] there's a lot of people that don't. >> That's right. >> A lot. And they don't get any reform. And I don't see the law the lawyers need to make more of a noise >> Yes. >> about it. And that doesn't seem to be that doesn't seem to be happening. What was it? Your your law firm or your lawyers? You mean you obviously have a great respect for them. >> I was blessed. They were giants. They really were. >> helping I mean, I don't always say Are they still helping you now or or >> No, I mean, thank God, knock on wood. I don't I don't need any help. We're still in touch. We get together periodically

[15:24] for lunch. I lecture at their law school classes. One teaches at Georgetown and other at American University School of Law. Um so yeah, we're and I've referred a half a dozen cases to them. They're they're giants. One has passed away. Two of the others are semi-retired, nearing retirement. Um but but we're still in touch. These guys were were giants in my life. >> Did they recognize the same problems in the industry in in in the legal in

[15:54] Yes, and they never did they ever voice it to you during like look look what this is screwed up. This is this is bad, but there's nothing you can do. >> Constantly, yes. Constantly. And and because they recognized the problems, that's why they were criminal defense attorneys. They took this all very very seriously. >> Yeah. But how did you cope mentally with your mental health? >> You know, it's funny. I I thought I was going to >> to a minimum security work camp. That's what the judge said. >> told me that at the beginning, yeah. And actually we were told

[16:25] >> Yeah. >> I thought I'm just going to, you know, keep my mouth shut, do my time, go home. And then they put me in the actual prison to to further punish me. And so I I hadn't really prepared to protect myself mentally. I was just kind of thrown in it. >> Yeah. >> On the very first day that I was in the prison, I'd only been in the prison for about 5 hours, and there was mail call. And a lady had sent me a postcard with a rose on it. Um a lady from Ringgold, Georgia who had followed my case. And um and I thought, what a thoughtful

[16:56] thing to do. I don't even know this woman. And she took time out of her day to send me this postcard. And I made a decision that very first day that I was going to respond to every letter that I received. Not realizing I was going to end up answering 7,000 letters to 675 different people. But I did. So there were two things that passed the time for me and it was writing letters, lots and lots of letters. And writing Doing Time Like a Spy.

[17:28] Longhand, which won two literary awards, crazy enough. >> honestly I you you did that longhand actually. You wrote that longhand. >> And you know what? I had to do it twice. Because the guards seized the manuscripts. They said it was a threat to the public safety and they destroyed it. >> yeah you said that in the book actually. Your manuscript had disappeared. >> Yeah. They destroyed it. >> Do you think you'll do a follow-up with the book? >> Pardon? >> Do you think you'll do a follow-up with that book? >> No. And I'll tell you why. I would I I've written in 10 books now. That was my second.

[17:58] But I've recently been signed by the Creative Artists Agency, CAA. >> Yeah. >> And they told me in very clear English, you're going to write fiction from now on. >> Oh dude, you definitely >> [laughter] >> Yes. Right. Okay. I get it. That And that's probably that's straight up your alley actually. >> I'm a little intimidated by it but I I I've got 10,000 words done and >> look if John le Carré can do it let's face it. >> I'm going to give it a shot. >> He had the he had the history. He was with the service.

[18:29] >> Yep. >> And and did the same thing as you know many other people do. Yeah I think that would be probably brilliant actually for >> to try. I'm going to try. I think I can do it. My goal My goal is to have 100,000 words by the end of the year but it it's hard. I'm going to try. >> Dude, that's awesome. Yeah I've written books myself actually and so I know how hard it is and I lost two manuscripts as I was writing them. I was [snorts] writing it I was writing a book and I was tied to Simon & Schuster and another one and Atria Books and and I was writing two

[18:59] manuscripts at the same time. Don't ever freaking do that. Especially when you get the blue screen of death and then you lose a manuscript. That's >> Oh my god. >> And then I sent I sent I sent the manuscript in for one and I sent another one in and then they ended up coming back saying I "I don't think this chapter should be in this book." I'd mixed up the chapters from each book and put them in sent them in. So, I was a total freaking screw up. So, I get it, but I think it was freaking awesome that you're doing that. >> I'm trying. It's hard work. >> So, did you do any legal stuff from you I mean when you were in in prison you had time? It seemed to me

[19:29] that you were studying a lot as well. >> I was. I did I did two things. Um there was a Mexican drug cartel member in my cell who asked me if I was educated when I first arrived and I said, "Yes." And he said, "Um would you write my appeal?" I said, "Well, I'm not a lawyer." "Well, yeah, but you're educated." I said, "Yeah, you know what? You're right. How hard could it be to write an appeal?" So, he gave me his case papers. He was completely totally utterly guilty. Plus, you know, when you get into a gun fight with the DEA and they catch you in

[20:01] the cocaine warehouse and you're bleeding out there. Yeah, you're guilty. >> You're guilty. You can't you can't you know, you can't get away with that. You can't lie your way out of that. >> No. So, I I wrote the appeal. It was all based on technicalities. The the appellate court acknowledged the technicalities, but they weren't they weren't important enough to have changed the outcome of the case. So, so we lost. But, he told the other cartel members that I was a good guy, that I did his appeal and that I didn't charge him anything. He offered me He offered me money in the form of of you know, bagged fish, which is currency.

[20:32] I said, "No, no, no. I I have people on the outside. They they put money in my commissary account. I'm good." And so, he told everybody that I was a good guy and I didn't charge him. And then near the very end of my um I'm very proud of this. Near the very end of my uh sentence I happen to be in Mark's cell. We would We would have dinner and we would hang out until it was uh recall where everybody's got to got to go back to their own cells. And um so, I'm reading the USA Today and there was an article about the the Second Chance Act. It It had just been signed

[21:04] into law and I said, "Buddy, did you read this article?" And he said, "Nah, not really." I said, "This article's about you." "What do you mean?" He says. And I said, "If you have a draconian sentence and if you if you had committed the same crime today and you would have gotten a lighter sentence, you can appeal." And I said he said, "I I don't even know how I would do that." I said, "I'll do it." So, I wrote the appeal and I sent it to the Justice Department and um

[21:35] you have to send it to Justice and then Justice would submit it uh to the courts and then I was released in February. In August, his mother called me and she was crying. And I answered the phone and I said, "Oh my god, what happened to him?" I thought something terrible had happened. And she said, "They're letting him go. You won that appeal." >> Wow, I think you mentioned it in your book, didn't you? At the end of it. >> I couldn't believe it. And they let him go. >> You either mentioned that in your book or you mentioned a podcast that I listened to. Yeah, one or the other.

[22:06] >> I'm I'm very happy to say Mark is now literally the most successful real estate agent on the New Jersey Shore. >> Is he really? >> Yeah. >> Do you know what? He's a classic example of how someone can go into an incarcerated life and come out and actually come out the other side and be successful. >> He should have never been in prison in the first place. You know, this is something I also that I said in the book that there's this there's this joke that's ongoing joke that everybody in prison's innocent. Well, you know what? A lot of people in prison are innocent.

[22:37] >> No, I would I believe that. I believe there's a lot of people going unnecessarily. >> But if you've got 50 years hanging over your head and they're offering you two, you know, in the words of one of my attorneys, this can be the a blip in your life if or it can be the defining event in your life. Make it the blip. Take the deal. >> You think it was the it was probably it's a hard I know you I know you're going to say, but this was a blessing for you in the end. >> Well, my brother told me on the day of my arrest he said, "I know you can't possibly see this right now, but this is going to turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you."

[23:08] And it did sound insane when he said it, but it turned out to be true. >> Now, you mentioned a couple of times you were suicidal. Was that before you went in or when you were in there? >> Before. Yeah. >> How did you How How did that Is that because you were There's an element of grief I'm kind of well-known for dealing with and helping people cope with grief. So, what There's an element there obviously that I see that obviously you were grieving what was in the life that you had. >> It was it was the prospect of dying in prison.

[23:39] >> Really, yeah. >> 45 years. I mean, 45 We can't There's There's There's no wiggle room there. 45 >> anticipating that that was the end. >> That was it. >> Wow. >> 45 years. And they stuck with that for 10 months. 45 years. Take a plea, sure, 45 years. Don't take a plea, you're still getting 45 years. >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> How did you How did you get over that hump that I'm going to fight that >> My wife told me "They have consistently underestimated

[24:11] your resolve. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You're far tougher than they think you are and you can fight this." And my lawyers, they wanted to go to trial. We talked about it until literally the last minute. And uh I I was fully prepared to go to trial. And oh my god, I might have accidentally said some of the horrible crimes against humanity and war crimes that I witnessed in 15 years at the CIA while on the stand testifying on my own behalf. >> Mhm. They didn't want that. >> They didn't want that. >> No.

[24:41] I I I I I I know that other other agencies and other places of the world didn't think that was the right thing either. >> That's right. >> And And that was And that was a big >> You know what? I I just happened to to have this I was recently given the highest award that the Irish government bestows. They've given one gold medal per year since 1777. And of the last seven recipients, the last eight recipients, it's the

[25:13] president of Ireland, the president of Finland, five Nobel Peace Prize winners, >> Wow. >> The the government of Luxembourg gave me a medal for truth-telling. I'm I'm celebrated in Greece and in Iceland and and elsewhere. It's the It's the United States that's wrong on these issues. Other countries recognize it. >> John, why didn't you leave? Why did you stay in America? I suppose that's a a loaded question. >> Well, I've got five kids here and uh >> Well, that's obviously Yeah, that's

[25:43] true. >> Yeah, and my my wife is here. I'm I'm proud to say that I've become a dual US-Greek citizen. I vote I vote in Greece. >> Right. >> I hope to buy some property in Greece by the end of the year. And I'm going to split my time. But damn it, this is my country. I'm not going to let them force me out of it. >> You are very patriotic, contrary to what a lot of people say. You come across to me from from someone who's a Scotsman who's coming from the UK, I do see you as very patriotic. >> What do you mean contrary to what some people say? >> Well, a lot of people will What's that? Some people will say

[26:14] There's that whole idea he's a traitor he's a he's he's a he's a you know, he loves America. And I think that's unfair where people label you wrong cuz you're definitely a patriot. >> only morons >> Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah, say stupid things like that. You know, the it Treason I've I've actually written about this a couple of times because treason is specifically defined in the Constitution. It's providing aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war. Period. We throw around that word treason, traitor all the time. And it it's become meaningless.

[26:46] >> It has. >> And I'll put I'll put my record and reputation up against anybody's, anybody's in America. >> I think I I I've got to get you back on this cuz I'd love to dive into the whistleblower side of things for the legal industry cuz I think that's >> There's a lot to say. >> I have to get you back. If you will if you will come back on I'd love to talk about that and maybe even get get some lawyers on because I think that's a that's a big thing. Do you think I mean you have had now you're enjoying success and you may be a catalyst to potential change.

[27:17] >> I hope so. I hope. >> I hope. Do you think that Do you think you're going to have any any potential power to change anything because of your infamy now and and you know the way that you've >> If I do if there is going to be change it will be only because of this infamy that I've developed. I somebody told me the other day that they saw a marketing study saying that I am the most popular person in America among males

[27:47] between 15 and 30. >> Really? >> Yeah, like where did that come from? >> Do you think you're going to end up in GQ magazine at some point? >> I I did a thing for GQ three months ago. Yeah. Yeah, I'm embracing it. People listen to me because I tell the truth. And so I'm running with it. >> Josh what my wife said. My wife is no fool. And my wife said when she listened to she said he's speaking from the heart and he's telling the truth. >> I'm trying my best. >> And you can tell everybody else has got different agendas. And I think yeah you definitely

[28:17] you've definitely got a lot to say and I think your experiences John have been absolutely phenomenal. And um I do want to get you back on. There's a lot that we can talk about on on Help Lawyer and I think there's there's a lot of our lawyers will be really interested to see this. I think we've definitely got to do more about the whistleblower thing cuz I think there's going to be more of it. A lot more of it. >> There is a lot to say and I think there's a lot to say that lawyers especially would be interested in. >> Yeah, definitely. I think this is um this this has been awesome just having a

[28:48] general a chat to get to know you and uh let everybody know what you're up what you're up to and and and how they can read your books and stuff like >> Thank you for that. I've got a whole bunch of books uh out and coming out. There's one coming out next month, one coming out the month after. Uh they're all on Amazon. Just go to John Kiriakou books and it they'll all pop right up. But I'm also starting a new podcast in just the next 2 and 1/2 weeks on YouTube. It's called uh John Kiriakou's Briefing Room. And I'm really proud to say that I've got a podcast

[29:19] we're just finishing the third the second season. Uh it's on Apple Podcasts and Spotify called John Kiriakou's Dead Drop. >> I got We listened to it. >> It's crazy popular. I can't believe We get these numbers in the morning and I'm like, "You've got to be kidding me." >> just started I mean Joe and I we finished your book and we started another book and Joe was like, "Ah, this is a book but not one of your books." It was another book. She says, "This is boring. There's not something else." And we got another one and Joe was like, "Okay." I said, "Well, I've got Dead Drop. Let's get it." Uh so downloaded it and she loved the stories of you in Greece and your mother and all this

[29:50] stuff cuz she loves to hear about the stories. So so we've been listening to Dead Drop. >> Thank you. And Apple Podcasts likes it so much they asked me to do a different one in season 3. They wanted me to do they're calling it um Oh, um The Spy's Guide to So I'm going to I'm going to do The Spy's Guide to London, Paris, Vienna, Athens, Abu Dhabi, Tokyo, Bangkok. Go all over the world. Tourists see a city one way, spies see it in a completely different way. So we'll do

[30:20] each city from a spy's perspective.
