Title: John Kiriakou about what can go wrong with spy agencies
Show: Splendour in the Grass
Date: 2015-07-25
URL: https://youtu.be/CXpClkw38CY
Duration: 1:14:00

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[00:04] Um you wouldn't have been able to see John for about 2 years because John just got out of federal prison in the United States. John has a fascinating story which he will share with us. He is actually joining us from Athens. And shortly we will see the sunrise in the background cuz it is 5:00 a.m. in Athens. Thank you, John. Here it is. My pleasure. And when it rises it will be rising over the

[00:35] What's it called? The Areopagus. That is the the ancient the little dot that you see behind me is the ancient court of Athens. It was used from 500 to 200 BC. Very good. Very appropriate. So John formerly worked for the CIA and he was an agent. He was first he was a desk jockey and he did analysis things then he moved on to more exciting things which we'll we'll talk about but if I

[01:07] can start with you John and then we'll come to you Bernard. Can you tell us a little bit about you know how do you become a a spy like you know you're studying Middle Eastern languages at university and suddenly your professor comes up and goes hey do you want to join the CIA? Right. Well when when I joined the CIA in late 1989 I was recruited by a professor who was my graduate school advisor. You could do things like that back in 1989 in the United States. He asked me

[01:37] simply to stay after class one night and asked if I had a job. I said not only do I not have a job I don't even have any prospects for a job and I'm getting married 2 weeks after graduation. And he said well have you ever thought of working for the CIA? I said no I had never really given it any thought. He made a couple of calls. The rest was up to me. I had to to pass a lot of tests. I had to go through a polygraph exam and a background investigation but about 9 months later I found myself at

[02:07] CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. And so you were a desk jockey analyst there for a little while, yeah? Yeah I was I was the CIA's back in the days when the CIA only needed one needed one of these. I was the CIA's analyst for Iraq and Kuwait. I was told to start on Iraq because nothing ever happened there. Nothing ever changed there. It was the same cabinet since 1968. It was a good place to learn tradecraft and and the CIA's writing style and then

[02:40] if I worked hard and things went well I could move on to something exciting like Romania. So I assume when you're an analyst of the CIA on a desk you get to sit around and just read the foreign newspapers all day or what? Well that's a part of it. You sit around and read the foreign newspapers but you're also reading cables from CIA officers in the field from the State Department from foreign embassies from the the Pentagon and NSA intercepts and you're trying to to collate all this

[03:12] information put it all together figure out what it means and then you literally spend your days writing papers for the president the secretaries of state and defense the national security advisor and help them to inform policy. In quiet places like Iraq. So so then eventually the CIA comes to you and says hey John you're really good we might want to bump up your skills. Do you want to do something more exciting? And what is Yeah I had been I'd been an analyst for about 7 and 1/2 years and I really got bored because it was all Iraq all the time and Saddam

[03:44] Hussein wasn't going anywhere and I had just had enough. So I decided I wanted to move into something exciting like counterterrorism operations and the CIA had an opening for someone who spoke either Greek or Arabic and it turned out that I was the only person in in the CIA who spoke both Greek and Arabic. And so I was able to make that very unusual transition into operations. So so they trained you in things like how to use guns and anti-terrorist training and how

[04:16] to drive crash cars that sort of thing. I think we might have a little bit of footage which we can show of the kind of things that John did. Do we have this up here? Yeah there we go. There there must be John there just under the singer MIA cruising down the road in Morocco. Oh. Um no Actually actually our counterterrorism driving course was in the sand dunes of Las Vegas, Nevada rather than Morocco. Right right. And so you had a particular

[04:47] experience where just to give you an idea of how well suited John was for this interesting task where you had to crash a car into a barricade. Right we we had to crash cars through road blocks and the road blocks were made up of other cars and so I was in line waiting for my turn to to crash and there were a couple of women officers ahead of me and they would crash and then they would start crying and glass was flying everywhere and people were being shaken up and and I thought wow

[05:18] this this you know the violence of crashing like this this is terrible. So I got in the car and I I crashed through the road block and my windscreen went flying in a million pieces and I THOUGHT THIS IS AWESOME. I loved it. I had a knack for it. And so they taught you to do the you know James Bond jump out of airplanes all that stuff as well. Yeah we jumped out of airplanes. We came up from the ocean depths in mini subs and did all that kind of stuff. And then

[05:48] you were stationed in Greece for a while where people tried to assassinate you. Yeah that's one of the downsides of the job actually is people are constantly trying to kill you. Yeah there was a group in Greece called Revolutionary Organization 17 November and I I thought I was very careful. I tried hard to do surveillance detection routes to and from work every day. I left at different times. I I took different roads and and then one day my next door neighbor

[06:19] the British defense attache was assassinated in central Athens and what 17 November would do whenever they would do an assassination is they would toss a manifesto either at the site of the hit or in a nearby garbage can and when they killed Stephen Saunders in 2000 they threw their their manifesto and it said "Ida megas ton megalo kataskopos." We we saw the big spy but he was in an armored car and we knew he was armed so we elected to carry out the revolutionary sentence on

[06:51] the war criminal Saunders. So I mean that was me. How they found me I have no idea because I was always so careful. I think probably they saw me in the neighborhood they would looking at him but I had to leave Athens that that same day as my own safety. I bet. I bet. So then you went to do on a much more mild-mannered job in Pakistan. Yeah after September 11th like everybody else in the CIA I volunteered to go to Afghanistan to do

[07:21] whatever was needed to try to bring Osama bin Laden to justice and then finally I was sent to Pakistan as the chief of counterterrorism operations there. I got there in January of 2002 and served out most of the rest of the year. So when you eventually left just before actually I should say back up for a little bit. At some point along the way you were offered some further special training. Yeah in March of 2002 I led a series of

[07:52] raids in Faisalabad, Pakistan that resulted in the capture of Abu Zubaydah. At the time we believed that Abu Zubaydah was the number three in Al-Qaeda. That turned out to not be true. Abu Zubaydah was never a member of Al-Qaeda. Certainly he was training Al-Qaeda members. He was he was assisting the organization in its logistics but he had never pledged loyalty or fealty to Osama bin Laden so our information was incorrect. So we captured Abu Zubaydah. I sat with him in his hospital room for

[08:23] the first 56 hours of of his custody. We we talked at length. Uh He he had been very severely wounded during the raid. He was shot by a Pakistani policeman with an AK-47 no less in the in the thigh the groin and the stomach. And the doctor told me he had never seen wounds so severe where the patient had lived. So I thought well I'm going to talk to him and see if maybe he's willing to talk to me. He wasn't willing to talk to me about anything substantive other than to say that he had opposed the September 11th

[08:54] attacks. He wanted to attack Israel but bin Laden had insisted that the attacks be in the United States. Other than that we talked about our families. We talked about poetry. He had been keeping a journal. He wanted to talk about that. He cried at the idea of not ever he said knowing the touch of a woman not ever knowing the joy of of fatherhood. So I said look I'm going to offer you some advice. My colleagues are not as nice as I am.

[09:25] If I can offer you one piece of advice it's you have to cooperate. If you don't cooperate God knows what's going to happen. Just answer their questions. And he said to me you seem like a nice guy but you're the enemy and I'll never cooperate. So a few days later he was flown to a a secret prison which I didn't know existed. I I was not read into the program. I didn't have a need to know. It was fewer than two dozen people in the world knew that we had these secret prisons.

[09:56] And once he recovered from his his wounds, things got rough, so to speak. So, I had gone back to headquarters by then, and a senior member of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center pulled me aside and said, "Hey, we wanted to ask you if you wanted to be certified in what he called enhanced interrogation techniques." I said, "Well, what's that mean?" And he said, "Well, we're going to start getting rough with these guys." And he explained to me what these torture techniques were. And I said, "Oh, man,

[10:27] that that sounds like torture." I said, "I I have a moral problem with that. I don't want any part of it." But then just to make sure I wasn't, you know, losing my mind or being too liberal for my own good, I went to see a very senior CIA officer who I'd known for many years, and I asked for his advice. And he said, "Look, first, let's call it what it is. It's torture. They can call it enhanced interrogation techniques or whatever else they want. It's torture. And torture is a slippery slope, and somebody's going to die.

[10:57] And when somebody dies, there's going to be a congressional investigation, then the Justice Department's going to be involved, and then someone's going to prison. Do you want to go to prison?" I said, "No." Ironically, I'm the only one who who did go to prison. The torturers didn't go to prison. The people who came up with the torture policy didn't go to prison. The guy who destroyed evidence of the torture didn't go to prison. I went to prison. Um that was much later, of course. So, anyway, I went back down to the Counterterrorism Center, and I said, "I don't want any part of this." And I just walked away from it. And you at the time and understood that

[11:30] they were doing this enhanced interrogation, but you didn't understand the depths of the torture until all the information came out much later. no. In fact, I think almost none of us knew how much torture was taking place at the hands of the CIA. You see, the again, the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques were only about a dozen techniques, and most of them weren't really torture-related. A A smack in the face is assault, but I don't think it's

[12:01] torture. Or grabbing someone by the lapels certainly isn't very nice, but it's not torture. We didn't know at the time that the CIA was um sexually abusing prisoners, for example. We didn't know about this this anal rehydration using hummus. We didn't know that people like Abu Zubaydah, who had a terrible fear of bugs, was put into a a dog cage uh with cockroaches just to make him lose his

[12:31] mind. We didn't know any of those things until the frankly, until the Senate torture report was released. And And then before that, we sort of had an inkling that something was afoot when the CIA Inspector General's report was released in 2009. But between 2002 and 2009, 99.9% of CIA officers had no idea that these things were taking place. And And so, at some stage, you reached a kind of a tipping point where you decided to tell the public on national television that the CIA was actually

[13:04] torturing its prisoners. What was that tipping point for you? How did that happen? Well, in 2005, Human Rights Watch came out with a report saying that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. And they went into some some real um detail about what that torture entailed. In 2006, Amnesty International published a similar report. And in 2007, the International Committee of the Red Cross wrote a report that was not made public, but portions were leaked saying again

[13:35] that the CIA was torturing prisoners. In the meantime, an American news network uh representative called me and said that he had information from a source saying that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah. I said, "Absolutely untrue. I was the only person who was kind to Abu Zubaydah. I oppose torture. Uh I've always opposed torture, and I never laid a hand on Abu Zubaydah or on anyone else." Does torture work? Torture does not work. This is a proven

[14:06] medical and psychological fact that torture does not work under any circumstances, and that the information gathered through the use of torture is unreliable. The person being tortured will tell his torturer anything that he thinks that person wants to hear just to get the torture to stop. And so, none of that information is actionable. So, you went to the national news broadcaster, and you Yeah. Well, the the week that I went on the national news, President George W. Bush

[14:37] uh gave a statement saying, in as a point of fact, we do not torture. And I knew that that was a lie. And then he said a couple of days later, "If there is torture, it's the result of a rogue CIA officer." And I knew that that was a lie. That torture was official government policy. And I thought, "Oh my god, they're going to try to pin this on me." The one who didn't torture anybody. So, I elected to go on ABC News in the United States. Brian Ross was the

[15:08] interviewer. And he asked me point-blank, "Was Abu Zubaydah tortured?" And I said, "Yes, he was." And what did that torture entail uh entail, excuse me?" And I said, "It entailed, to the best of my understanding, waterboarding." And I explained what waterboarding was. Um sleep deprivation, and a couple of other less significant techniques, but but he was tortured. And immediately, the FBI began an investigation of me that lasted for the

[15:38] next 4 years. And then I should also point out to you that that that really I I said I said three things that were important and and that sort of put me out there in the torture debate. I said that we were torturing. I was the first former or current CIA officer to confirm the use of torture. I said that torture was official US government policy. And I said that that policy had been approved of and signed by the president himself. So, pretty pretty groundbreaking whistleblowing there. Oh, with within

[16:10] within weeks, the Internal Revenue Service began auditing my income taxes, and I've been audited every year since 2007. And that was the least of my problems. And so then one day you wake up, and uh and the FBI's at your door. You're not there, though. Yeah. I I frankly uh put this whole incident behind me. And then in in 2012, I got a call from the FBI asking if I could help them on a case. Well, I had spent 20 years of my adult

[16:43] life cooperating in one way or the other with the FBI, which I'm going to say, don't ever do. Don't ever cooperate with the FBI. They're liars, and they'll implicate you in something you'll your life will never be the same. So, I went down to the FBI's field office, and I said, "Hey, fellas, what can I do to help you?" And it was an hour and 20 minutes into this interview that I finally realized that they were investigating me. That I wasn't there to help them

[17:14] on a case. I was there to implicate myself in a case. And finally, one of the FBI agents leaned across the table and said in a very quiet voice, "You should know that as we speak, we're raiding your house, and we're taking all of your electronics." I said, "Am I under arrest?" He said, "Not yet." I said, "I want to see my attorney." And that was the only thing that got me out of being arrested that day is because I said I wanted to see my attorney. So, the house is being raided, and can

[17:45] you just describe a little bit about what that experience is like? Yeah, I I was thankful that they didn't break down the door with a battering ram at 6:00 a.m., which is the way they usually do it. Just like the Stasi used to do in East in East Germany, just like the the KGB used to do in the Soviet Union, the FBI will break down your door with a battering ram at 6:00 in the morning. What they did is they rang the doorbell. And my my wife was home with our then 3-month-old son. And uh 12 FBI agents came in. They told

[18:17] her to sit on the couch and not get up. And they went room to room putting putting papers on each wall, wall one, wall two, wall three, wall four. They went through the closets. They went through the drawers. They went through everything, and they took absolutely all of our electronics. And with took odd things. Like I had a I had a thick leather binder full of business cards. They took those. They took 5,000 pictures of my children, which I I didn't understand, and didn't give them

[18:47] back to me for 2 and 1/2 years. Uh they just took anything that they randomly thought would be interesting. They took all of my movies on DVD. Like I had maybe 100 movies I had purchased on DVD. They took all of those. They took They took my entire um iTunes uh catalog I had on a Yeah, you have good taste in music, John. Yeah, and you know what? Another thing that I resented, they took my iPad. And then in in the 2 years that they had my iPad, they played the games.

[19:21] And did they beat your score? So, eventually, you face charges from them. They actually come and say they're laying charges against you. Right. I for the for the interview with ABC News, I was charged with three counts of espionage. Uh I was also charged with that one count of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, and I'll get to that a minute. And I was charged with one count of making a false statement. I I'm still not exactly clear on what the false statement was that I

[19:53] was supposed to have made. Um that charge was dropped and the three espionage charges were dropped, but I took a plea to to a reduced charge of violating the intelligence identities protection act. Now, what happened there is a journalist had uh emailed me and said he was writing a book on the CIA's rendition, detention, and interrogation center and he wanted to know if I knew any of the following 12 names and he wrote this list of 12 names. I said, "I don't know anybody."

[20:24] And then a few uh weeks later he sent me another two dozen names. I said, "Nope, I don't know any of those people." And he said, "Well, what about the person I'm going to call him John. What about John that you wrote about in your book? Uh can you put me in touch with him?" And I said, "Oh, that's John Doe. I I don't know where he is. He's probably retired and living in Virginia somewhere." That conversation got me a felony conviction and 2 and 1/2 years in prison. But the truth you think is that actually they were coming after you for revealing the torture to the world.

[20:54] Oh. Oh, there's there's no question about it. Um in in discovery, which is where the government has to turn over all the information it has against you as you prepare for trial, um it was very clear that they were going after me for for what I'd said about torture. In fact, the the Justice Department at one point told the CIA, "We don't see any wrongdoing here. I mean, he probably shouldn't have confirmed the name, but but that kind of thing happens in Washington almost every single day." Indeed, the last three CIA directors have done exactly the same thing. And

[21:27] David Petraeus did it for sex. Um so the Justice Department said, "We're not really seeing a crime here." And a senior CIA officer responded, "I don't care. Charge him anyway." And so they charged me with these five felony counts. I ended up not just serving 2 years uh in prison, but I lost my my federal pension after 20 years of service, which means I'm going to have to work until the day I die. I still owe my attorneys $880,000

[21:57] and I'm utterly ruined financially. And and you've got five children to take care of. Yeah, I have a wife and five children. And my my wife uh was working for the CIA at the time of my arrest. And then the afternoon of my arrest, uh she was fired from the CIA just because she was married to me. Um so Things got so bad, actually, uh a couple of months later uh on a Friday night uh she was going through the checkbook and she said, "I'm not sure how we're going to buy food

[22:27] next week." And I said, "Are we in that bad of shape already? We can't afford food." And she said, "Yeah, it's that bad." So the following Monday we went to the uh local welfare office and we qualified for everything. We qualified for food stamps, we qualified for free milk, uh for a a cash payment of $90 a month. Um they even gave her um an extra uh amount of money because she was a nursing mother and she needed to have calcium. Uh we went on Medicaid, which is the the welfare program for medical care. Uh

[23:00] things really got bad quickly. Um and then you ended up going to um a prison uh in Loretto, Pennsylvania, which I think we've got a shot of the front door of that um charming establishment, which we'll just put up. We can see you guys can see the extensive barbed wire, the uh uh the grooming at the front probably doesn't reflect grooming inside, I'm assuming. Indeed, it does not. And and you spent 2 years inside the prison housed in very

[23:30] grossly overcrowded and pretty miserable circumstances. Grossly overcrowded, um 39% overcrowded, uh to the point where rooms for four have eight uh bunk beds everywhere, bunk beds in the hall, bunk beds in the game room, in the TV room. Um and and fully a third of those prisoners were convicted child molesters. So it's not, you know, the greatest class of people that you're in there with. And you wrote a fantastic series um of articles from inside prison

[24:03] called Letters from Loretto, um which are still available online if you guys are interested in reading it. It's a fascinating insight into being inside an American prison. Um It was it was those Letters from Loretto that actually kept me in prison 6 months longer than I otherwise would have been. Um listen, I feel very very strongly about Americans' constitutional rights to freedom of speech. And when I got to prison, I was actually recommended by the judge and by the prosecution to go into a

[24:34] minimum security prison camp, which would have allowed me to work in town. Uh there are no fences, no locked gates, and the Bureau of Prisons said, "No way. He's going in the actual prison, in the real prison across the street." So I went into the prison that you showed in in that photo a minute ago. And I decided Americans really don't know what life is like inside prisons except for what they see on late-night television. So I'm going to start writing a blog. And that blog ended up

[25:06] resulting in threats of solitary confinement, threats of what uh they call diesel therapy, where they put you in transit for the entire length of your sentence because in transit you're not allowed access to um email or to pens and paper. Uh nobody knows where you are. So your family can't find you or No. And they just ship you from one prison to another. That's right. Yeah, they'll just put you on a on a prison bus or on a prison plane called Conair and just fly you all over the country for 2 years. You're

[25:37] never in any one place for more than 6 weeks. That's a a pretty appalling um outcome. Um but you have finally been um uh released from prison um with a um I I think something that most Australians would find an unbelievably heavy-handed uh sword hanging over your head for the next 2 years and uh about working. Do you want to tell them about that? Yeah, for the next 3 years 3 years. um I have to maintain a 40-hour

[26:11] per week job. If I lose that job, which which I have right now. I have a job at a think tank in Washington. If I lose that job, I go back to prison. If um I can't get if I can't find funding for the job, which is sort of what I'm working on now and that's part of this Athens trip, I go back to prison. If I leave the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area without um without permission from the judge, I go back to prison. Uh and this this is for 3 years. This is something that I have

[26:42] to live with for 3 years. In addition, I have to submit um financial disclosure reports uh every month. I have to explain all uh financial transactions. If I buy a newspaper, I have to document it. If I take my family out to dinner, I have to document it. And if I don't and there's a discrepancy, I go back to prison. So one final thing before we jump to you, Bernard. Um your whistleblowing and and the revelation of the torture that the CIA was conducting has really been

[27:14] vindicated by the recent um congressional report. Can you just give us a quick summary of that? Yeah, the the day that the Senate torture report uh was released, I called my wife. I was still in prison, of course. I called my wife and she said to me, "I am so happy today." And I said, "Really? Why?" And she said, "Because the Senate torture report came out today and it proved that everything you said was true." And you know, that that really made it all worthwhile. That and the fact that Senator John McCain and Senator uh

[27:45] Dianne Feinstein, the the chairman of the Armed Services Committee and the former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, uh were able to pass a bill into law signed by the president finally that formally, officially, and permanently bans the use of torture. And I like to think that I played at least some role in that. That made it all worthwhile. That is a real achievement, a real achievement. Um

[28:16] uh but you paid obviously a pretty high high price for it along the way and we don't want to I I did, but you know what, Sulette? I would do it all over again. Because, you know, interestingly, since 2007, nobody else has ever come forward. Nobody else has said, "I was an interrogator. I tortured so-and-so." Nobody else has come forward. You know, we've we've had these reports released like the like the Inspector General's report, but my god, no one has opened his mouth. And and by the end of this torture program, there were hundreds of people who knew that it was taking place, hundreds of people who

[28:47] were involved in in some way, whether it was opening these secret prisons or actually carrying out the torture, and nobody said a word. And I find that to be appalling. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's a real shock revelation about your fellow humans uh when they won't speak up about that kind of wrongdoing. Um uh turning to a a different but uh also important type of wrongdoing. Um uh Bernard here uh represents Witness K um in a different sort of wrongdoing behind

[29:18] the veil of secrecy in our spy organizations closer to home in Australia. Just before we um uh get a bit of a description from you, I think one that thing that's important for the audience, if you can put up that other slide, uh is probably most people in the audience have heard of ASIO, yeah? Hands up who's heard of ASIO? Good. Hands up who's heard of ASIS? Bit smaller. Who knows the difference between them? Ooh, three, four people. Excellent. Bernard, can you just give us a little background on This is uh the

[29:51] incredibly bland, bureaucratic frontage of ASIS here. We got an image along with the office of national assessment who works with them. Can you just give us a 2-minute overview before we talk about Witness K? Am I unplugged in? Yes. That's the entrance or the soon-to-be former entrance of ASIO. ASIS is located somewhere else. Yep. ASIO is the internal

[30:22] counterespionage service and ASIS is the external espionage service. I think that just puts it simply. In Britain, the two MI5 and MI6. So, ASIS is the equivalent of the CIA sort of. And ASIO is the equivalent and moving more like the FBI. Okay. Now, can you tell us about Witness K and the wrongdoing inside ASIS that he

[30:52] or she will will call him a he for the sake of argument, but we don't know whether it's a he or she actually saw and wanted to have in some way rectified. John mentioned that in the in the United States there was an Inspector General and that office that Inspectorate office investigated questions of torture. Australia doesn't have an Australian intelligence personnel don't have any access to

[31:23] an inspector. There is a person called an Inspector General in the Department of Prime Minister, but that office currently vacant is a public servant answerable to the Prime Minister. And in K's case, K's complaint concerned the conduct of the ministry. The Foreign Minister and probably the Prime Minister. So,

[31:55] at least in the United States, there can be an investigation. In Australia, there is no way for a person to go to to report misconduct or unlawful behavior. So, so the the Witness K case kind of reads like a a cross between Person of Interest, Suits, and and maybe The Dismissal. You've got a larger-than-life

[32:25] drama, a bit like an ABC mini-series. You've got the Australian Attorney General George Brandis tied up in it, ex-Foreign Minister Alexander Downer. You've got an international treaty, an evil oil company, digital bugging of the East Timorese cabinet's offices, the International Court of Arbitration in The Hague, and an ASIO raid of your home and office. Look, the experience of K and myself parallels that of John, but I knew about what had

[32:57] happened to John and I knew that the equivalent provision that John was charged under John was charged among others under the Intelligence Identities Act 19 19 whatever it was 2002. There's a similar legislation in Australia, so I had to find as K's lawyer how we could not turn him into a perceived whistleblower like John. And so, we reported the misconduct or we

[33:31] went and got permission from the Inspector General. And I was the approved lawyer as I have been in the past for intelligence personnel. I was the approved lawyer and then, of course, if you lodged an application in any court or tribunal in Australia, you would commit an offense. It sounds really weird, but you commit a crime to report a crime if you are an intelligence officer in Australia. You commit a crime to report a crime.

[34:02] One way out of it, of course, was available to K. K was extraordinarily lucky because I was the personal lawyer for the Prime Minister of and President of East Timor and I've been involved with them. And since the immoral conduct reported unlawful criminal conduct reported was bugging the Timorese cabinet to get more money for the oil and petroleum companies,

[34:33] uh we couldn't start an action in an Australian court because we'd have to put down K's name. But we started a confidential international arbitration in The Hague. And at the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague, you're given immunity from prosecution. So, we outsmarted and got past the law that got John.

[35:03] We filed it in camera in secret in The Hague and started an arbitration where both Witness K and Timor Leste were the contestants. Were the were the plaintiffs. So, that meant nothing could happen. But then, on the I left it one day on the 2nd of December I left Melbourne and they seemed to be very funny about my passport.

[35:33] The woman went away and brought it back, which doesn't happen to you guys. And then I went to sleep in The Hague and then one of my staff woke me up and said that ASIO had invaded K and me and were doing all the same things room by room that FBI did to K and his wife and child. And and so, everything that K that John had visited itself on myself and K, the Attorney General used parliamentary privilege to call me a criminal.

[36:05] He sent his Solicitor General to The Hague. And then, we realized that when warfare starts between two states, you can make a provisional measures application to the International Court to have provisional orders made by the International Court to stop warfare, for example, and there've been provisional orders of to stop fighting between Cambodia and Laos and between India and Pakistan. But the Australian lawyers didn't realize and we took them by surprise. We made a provisional orders

[36:37] application to the International Court. And that court ruled 15-1. The only one was the judge appointed by Australia. 15-1 that Australia had to return had to seal and not read all of the documents seized at in my law office and in my home. Do you suspect that those documents might have been read anyway? Well, what happened was I they knew they waited until I left Australia because, and this is what

[37:07] Australians don't know, there was no warrant issued by a a judge or a magistrate as is for all the rest of us in this country if you're going to be raided. George Brandis, the Attorney General, issued a personal warrant under the ASIO Act under the provision that was introduced after 9/11 for terrorists. How unusual is that? And so, and the man who asked for the warrant was the man who instructed K to do the bugging in Dili, who we said was a criminal.

[37:40] So, this what happened in Australia was that the Director General of ASIS, who by then was the Director General of ASIO, got a warrant off George Brandis, the Liberal Party colleague of Alexander Downer, who directed the bugging, to raid my office, seize all our papers for the maritime boundaries and the oil the oil dispute with East Timor, and to raid and intimidate K. They took everything out of K's house, his his laptops, his iPads,

[38:13] even his Monopoly. Because you know, that's obviously subversive activity, Monopoly. Monopoly was pretty bad. But more importantly, during the day they were in my chambers and office and during the day they were in K's house, technical teams came in and went up through manholes and were retrieving items. Out of the rooftop cavity. So, I'll never lie down with a ventilation thing looking down on my bed and think easy anymore because they had

[38:44] already been into our offices and homes and bugged it. If we can that's Australia. That's This is our country. That's what Putin does in Russia. And that happened here. Now, they're not game to prosecute. They're not game to do it because I think their criminal activity will come out, but they're they're intimidating K. They've taken K's passport. And um Does that mean he can't go to The Hague to give evidence? Well, that that it

[39:15] happened the day before we were due to appear in The Hague. They seized all our case. I mean, just imagine just imagine it. And what they were covering up was that they bugged the cabinet office in Dili during revenue negotiations, nothing to do with national security. And of course, as you know, Alexander Downer then retired and went to work for Woodside Petroleum. So, if I can just understand and give a bit of background to the audience. Australia and East Timor

[39:45] have overlapping access to a giant gas field under the sea between the two, and that gas field is worth a lot of money in in oil and gas revenues, yeah? Yes, there's billions at stake, but the point is that bugging didn't help Australia, it lost Australia money. The bugging advantaged an international consortium that didn't want to put a pipeline for the gas to Australia or East Timor. They wanted to take all the money offshore because American and

[40:15] Dutch and Australian oil companies get flown in labor on floating platforms. They didn't want to do anything, so this had no economic benefit for Australia. A lot of people think we were A ripping off East Timor, we weren't just ripping off East Timor, we were ripping off our own country because we set up a position such that it would be a floating platform in international waters and there'll be no economic benefit for Australia. So So no no job, you know,

[40:46] you wouldn't necessarily have Australians working on a pipeline as you might if it had come into Australia with Australian wages or or in fact taxes coming into Australia as well. So raises the real question as to whether a secret service becomes a proxy for a corporation. That's what it's really about and that's the that's the the mainstream issue at the moment I think in our society is where does all our information go? What's all

[41:17] this surveillance for and who is it benefiting? Can you just show the slide? We've got I took one image from the East Timor is women's association just to give you an idea. East Timor is a very very very poor country. Not only one of the world's newest countries, but also one of the world's poorest. And I think that the defense establishment in Australia has got some policies about the importance of Yeah, good point. of East Timor to Australia historically and today. Yeah.

[41:48] You guys know that in the Second World War the only population of an Asian country that as a population aided, protected, hid and fed the European army forces was the East Timor population. They assisted an entire Australian army that was cut off and isolated by the Japanese advance. So they did that for us and about 40,000 of them died as a result, but more importantly when

[42:19] when Xanana Gusmão, the resistance leader, was released from an Indonesian prison and got back to Timor, I joined him and we went round the island. There wasn't a village we didn't go to that wasn't burned out and we were constantly given babies. He would be shown a baby that was alive, but quite often there'd be a everything had been burnt, but they had little wicker baskets for babies. Still one in six infants dies within five years of birth in East Timor and we were there

[42:52] bugging their cabinet room to rip off their money. That's the sort of country we've turned into at at political party leadership level. And that's really what motivated K. K and the top brass involved thought as John did over torture this is a universal crime. This is sentencing more

[43:22] children to death in East Timor because Timor has been deprived of its gas and oil. Its gas and oil runs out in about 13 years time. It's a marine clay environment, it's infertile. It is very they've had successive famines during the Indonesian occupation, 200,000 of them died. And so we're pushing this country into further poverty and potential disorder, but it's our outpost. East Timor in World War II was

[43:55] a strategic place. It still is. It's very important for Australia's defense and the idea that we would bug their cabinet room, steal their money, runs counter to our own national security, our own interests because we need East Timor as an unsinkable aircraft carrier. We need to have our naval bases forward so that if we do have to defend our shipping and that, we've got deep water anchorages in East Timor and so forth, so on. So the defense area of Australia

[44:27] is appalled by this conduct. So you you said something in an earlier conversation with you, Bernard, I found really telling. You said these days payoffs never come in brown packages anymore. I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit about that. Well, you just got to look around um just look around former political leaderships in this country and look how many of them have got

[44:59] harborside homes and start with nothing in politics and the way it's done is you've given directorships. You're not bribed while you're in office. You move into these cozy positions and there's a an increasing elite level in our country that I've watched out in the 40 years I've been in legal practice where all sorts of elite elements who able to access power and you know, there's only about 80 real

[45:30] strong company directors in this country and they there's there's a nice elite level that's going to set a ceiling and I wonder how many of you guys will get into that ceiling because um it's a very compact top pyramid and that top pyramid is the one that doesn't seem to be concerned about the rule of law. So I can talk to you about the scandal of East Timor, but how many politicians have stood up for this? Who stood up

[46:01] when my law practice was invaded, when my staff had their mobile phones taken off them and held incommunicado for 60 hours in our democracy? Nothing different from what Putin is doing in Russia happened in Canberra in 2013 and is continuing, but who is standing up for us? No one at the top of the pyramid. None of the elite are doing anything about this position in society. And one reason why I was very happy to

[46:33] accept Sue Letts' invitation today is to talk to you because you guys are going to have the key to breaking through this misconduct. It's got to stop. It's unlawful, it's immoral. People like John shouldn't be sent to jail and my staff, even one of my young lawyers the police waited outside her exam room recently. They sought to interview my staff. They've sought to question me. They are

[47:03] harassing and trying to get prosecutions going against us. No one at any top level in our society is doing anything about this at the moment except some independent politicians like Andrew Wilkie, Nick Xenophon and the Greens have been great. But absent them, how many voices have you heard about this? And the media has recently been subjected to a to a provision 35p. If I said anything that John said today,

[47:36] for example, he said he did surveillance and roadblock training in the the sand dunes in Las Vegas. That would be a criminal offense for me to say in Australia. Now, it would be a criminal offense for Sue Letts to report it as a journalist. Australia passed the strictest laws outside Russia last year clamping down on the media. And as I talk to you today, I have to be so careful that I don't give them any

[48:08] ground to do what they did to John because the laws in Australia now are tougher than in the United States. There's a clamp down on the media. So I might just ask one final question of both you and John and then open the floor to questions you guys might want to to ask. And that is what do you think that the role of technology has been and will be in future for people in our most secret spy areas who need to tell the truth about really immoral or unethical behavior?

[48:39] Do you want to start, Bernard? Yeah, well you know, um there are there's two sort of streams for us in society. The first is that there's a state process, Tony Abbott especially, who want to keep you feeling insecure and under threat and therefore that you'll go easy on the encroachments on your own privacy your the electronic surveillance of you

[49:10] that's going on a pace and that you will somehow or other trade off to protect yourself and your families from terrorism, you allow that encroachment on your goodwill. That's just what Hitler did. He said the Jews were running the economy. He claimed that the the Jewish conspiracy was not going to allow Germany to get back its economic potential. It created that uncertainty that so many good Germans

[49:41] fell for. At the moment in this country, Tony Abbott and his bunch are telling you things are insecure for you. They're not sure for you and you are letting not you cuz you don't get a say in Canberra usually. Um our legislators are passing laws that give more and more power to the state. Mhm. Do do you have some thoughts on that, John, before we open the floor to questions? Yeah, I I would like to say something.

[50:12] We are told here in the United States that if you work in the intelligence community and you want to report wrongdoing that there's a chain of command. You go to your boss. If you don't get satisfaction from your boss, you go to the Inspector General, then to the General Counsel, and then to the oversight committees on Capitol Hill, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. We know, thanks to the Tom Drake case at at NSA and the Jeffrey Sterling case at CIA, that that simply does not work. And

[50:45] for example, I'll give I'll use myself as an example. My boss was in on the torture program. The the General Counsel had approved of the torture program. The Inspector General was not read into the torture program. He had no idea it was taking place. And the two oversight committees were also in on it. They had been briefed on it and they had approved of it. So, where do you go? The only place you can go is to the press. And if you elect to go to the press, you have to protect yourself. That's why technology is so important. That's why

[51:16] now so many people use encrypted chat rooms or encrypted email. That's what I would recommend that people do is encrypt their communications. Um I I excuse me, I'm going to close the blinds behind me because I think I'm going to behind you if you step over to the side? We might have a little look. Can we see the uh the uh former you know courts there? Is it just up on the hill there? Areopagus. Unfortunately, the building that you see right next to the Areopagus

[51:48] is blocking a straight-on gorgeous view of the Parthenon. There you go. All right. Well, we got a bit of a bit of an outline in Greece. Um all right, maybe close the blinds and open for questions. Does anyone have any questions? Yes, just down here in the front. Do we have a mic for you or I'll I'll repeat the question. With the laws that passed in Australia now, does the media still have a role in exposing these problems in our governments and in our society? So, the question is uh does the

[52:18] media still have a role in exposing these problems with the new laws uh that have been passed in Australia? I might toss that to you, Bernard. There's a famous famous saying and aphorism by Bentham, publicity is the soul of justice. Oh ho. And it it truly is. And uh it it requires a courageous and brave newsroom. It requires courageous and brave editors and subeditors. And I'll tell you, look, I've been We had to take all our work I had to move all our staff

[52:50] to England because it it's not safe to work in Australia anymore as a lawyer on civil liberty issues. Trust me. And many of my colleagues are moving out of this country because this is an as unsafe as Russia. Mhm. Now, what uh you you have to do is to have a newspaper I'm pumping them The Guardian. Alan Rusbridger has been fantastic. He's left the editorship, as you know, but The Guardian has been just right up there

[53:21] for years and years now. I worked for 5 years in France um in some associated areas. Um and I used to get the Manchester Guardian. It's just had such a long history of independent journalism. Things aren't so good in Australia at the moment. Not not not so good. Um you're you're going to learn as you leave this tent that the head of news and and uh what is it? Head of Kate Kate uh the head of news has has just resigned from the ABC this morning.

[53:52] Mhm. I mean, that there are difficulties in our country. We're going through a sort of McCarthy era of uh fascist government, probably. Um we've had uh we've had a situation arise where we've put people into power we should have thought twice about. And we're copping it. We're copping it. You're getting some enthusiastic nodding from the audience on that one. Do we have another question in the striped shirt just um just here? Oh, good, you got a mic. Excellent.

[54:23] Hello. Hi. Um I just wanted to say to John I grew up in Bethesda and had a lot of friends that went to GW and I'm very proud of you. Very proud of you. I think you're amazing. Yes, and I it's very distressing. Uh thank you. Some of the happiest years of my life were at GW. Yeah, it's very distressing to hear all of the clamping down that happened to you and the the stress that your family's going through. That's very upsetting to hear that. You know, and as it's happening, you keep thinking to

[54:54] yourself, I feel like I'm in a nightmare. I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is the United States. And then, believe me, in in 2009, I was so excited about the the election of Barack Obama. I believed in the whole hope and change thing and that turned out to just be a myth. Uh Barack Obama is at least as bad as George W. Bush is in terms of protecting our civil liberties. This is really a terrible disappointment. And it's led me to to conclude that there's really no difference between the two major parties

[55:26] in the United States. This is an ongoing battle we're going to have to fight for our constitutional rights and for our civil liberties. And consistent, I think, with no difference between the parties in Australia. Um do did you have another question? Yeah, my question my question really goes back to the your formative years at GW. When you were there, was it really a career trajectory to the CIA? Was I mean, was it that clear? And also, what did your mom and dad have to say about you joining the CIA? I mean, were they for you or were they like, maybe you know, accountancy might be Hi, Mom. I come home tonight. I'm

[55:57] joining the CIA today. You know, when when I was when I was on my way to Pakistan, I remember my dad saying, "Now, don't do anything dangerous." And I said I said, "Dad, what do you think I do for a living? Like, honestly, what do you think I do for a living?" I felt sorry for my dad. But to answer your first question, um yeah, it it was actually a a pretty natural trajectory to go from GW to the CIA. I didn't know that at the time. I I learned that once I got to the CIA

[56:27] because all of this was done in in secrecy for the most part. Um this this professor that I had was acting as what used to be called a spotter. Uh that's a CIA officer undercover as a professor who looks for um graduate students, graduate school students who he thinks might be a good fit in the CIA's culture. Now, they don't do that anymore. They haven't done that since 1993 with the passage of the Equal Employment Opportunity Law. Uh but back in the '80s and the early '90s, that was

[56:59] pretty much the only way to get into the CIA. It's much less romantic now. You have to go to www.cia.gov and click apply now. And be sure to use Tor to anonymize your connection when you do it. Yes, we've got a question down here in the front, sir. I wonder if I could get a reflection from both of you um with regard to the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which is currently being looks like coming into law and and seems to subjugate

[57:30] Australian law to international corporate law and and how that is uh a part of, I guess, this whole picture that that you've been painting for us. Bernard, do you want to start and then John? Of course, there's some sort of contradictions here because Obama, who's been traveling really well in the last 6 months, is a major architect of this. And um there are sort of counter pulls going on. The the

[58:01] immunities and the cross international litigation rights for corporations that'll come out of this will mean that we can that there's an extraterritorial extraterritorial capacity to pursue us for civil remedies when we criticize uh and and uh uh criticize uh product safety uh criticize uh defective product uh things.

[58:32] There are uh provisions in the draft treaty that will give United States legislators capacity to effectively legislate our rights. And it it's all part of the erosion of the concept of sovereignty. But many people believe that globalization is better because the good aspects of rule of law and democracy will flow across the

[59:02] system. There's no sign that trade has made the the government in China more liberal with its citizens. Um there's a firm belief that um enterprise feeds democracy and is a step on the ladder to uh democracy, rule of law, and so forth. But the whole Trans-Pacific uh concept means that I think we'll be very largely a poorer cousin of the United States.

[59:34] We'll be locked in with them and we're part of a a global circumstance where we will be the the junior relative. So so just before I hand it to you John to answer, one thing to point out about the TPP if you guys are interested, you can see a draft chapters even though it's been kept secret if you go to the WikiLeaks site. There were some chapters leaked, but a really important element of it is that it will take away the power of things like the High Court of Australia to make a set of decisions

[1:00:05] and transfer it to besuited lawyers in New York or I guess London who will be arbitrators and they'll make the decisions instead based on a set of commercial considerations. John, did you have some thoughts on the TPP? I couldn't possibly say it any better than Bernard said it. I think this is a very dangerous development. It's a dangerous agreement. It's something that that the think tank for which I work, the Institute for Policy Studies, is very active in opposing.

[1:00:35] And um I don't I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this just seems to be another giant leap in the direction of corporate control of our our governments and our economies and I again I can't believe that this is my country. What's happened to my country over the last 20 years? It's I'm perplexed. I'm I'm just in the brown shirt and then in and then in front of that. Yep. Hi. In regards to laws like the the

[1:01:06] anti-leaking laws like we've seen the prosec- well, kind of prosecution of Julian Assange and things like that. And now more recently with I think it was 35 P with the media laws. What what's the way forward with holding states particularly in Australia accountable for what they're doing? In terms of what is your question around what people should do? doing behind closed doors. Yeah. What what can people do to make this stop? Good question. Good question. Bernard, John, Bernard, do you

[1:01:37] want to go first? Well, we've got to go to the International Court more often. We've got to take Australia before international tribunals. We we need more Witness K's. Witness K's an Australian hero. And the reality is we need to let the future Witness K's, we don't know yet, the future Johns, know that this time we'll protect them. We'll act for them. We'll fight for them. And we'll take the fight overseas. If it's not safe to to be in Australia, I'm

[1:02:09] going back in a few days. We'll fight it from a place where there is still rule of law. Britain strangely enough is still got a high measure of rule of law, right? I think the sister of the young lawyer who was in my office when we were raided is here today. She may be in the audience. I don't wish her to identify herself, but when young lawyers get pinned against a wall, asked if there any weapons in the house, in the office,

[1:02:41] have their phones taken, get stopped from going to the bathroom in the Australian democracy, you young guys will start to get your tails up and you'll start to see what John and I and others going through. And if George Brandis does unwisely prosecute K and myself, you're going to hear a lot about it because I'll go kicking. Make some noise if that happens, guys. John, did you have any advice on what people can do? Make some noise.

[1:03:12] Yeah. Make noise. Press your elected representatives. Write and publish in the press whether they're op-eds or letters to the editor. And and I will I will say if you make a decision to blow the whistle on on waste, fraud, abuse or illegality, my God, go ahead and do it. Hire an attorney before you do it to advise you, but do it. It's the only way we can affect change. There was just a lady in the front with an A on her shirt and then we'll do the one just behind with the braids. Yep,

[1:03:43] with your hand up. Hi. Just in light with the recent asylum seekers and doctor privacy laws that have been passed. In terms of making noise, how can we as students or health care professionals make noise when these our patients are being treated like this and not end up you know, in K's or in K's position or something like that and still be able to care for people? Well, the threat to prosecute you people

[1:04:15] working in detention centers should be tested in my view. I think courageous people should come forward as the doctors have as stated. They will reveal conditions. And we just You know, there were the suffragettes in in the early 20th century to get women women the vote in United Kingdom. There's always a band of people who come out there on it and you're seeing it from John and Witness

[1:04:46] K. And you know, I'm here today to tell you guys there isn't much going among the gray-haired group at the moment in this country. It's for you guys to do. In your professions, stand up on it. There are lots of international tribunals that can you can go to. There there are quite a few remedies if you get some lawyers with you and there's a great number There's a bit of a exodus of civil libert- civil libertarian lawyers and human

[1:05:17] rights lawyers from Australia at the moment. We're going through a bad patch, but they're there and a lot of them would like to work with you on these problems. So I really agree with John about getting an attorney. The difference between Witness K and John is that Witness K came and got an attorney and I knew how not to turn him loose on Channel 9 or the ABC. I went and took him to The Hague where there were immunities and where it created an

[1:05:48] international incident that made it hard for Australia to jail him. He's I hope going to make it hard for Australia to jail him. Sneaky and clever tactics. John, did you have any comment in relation to the question? Really, that was a that was a brilliant strategic move. I wish that I had thought to go to an attorney in advance. I made that mistake, but that was really brilliant. One thing I'd also add is I've seen a bunch of the online people are sometimes critical of clicktivists,

[1:06:18] but Open Media, GetUp, they've been pretty active on the TPP issue. And you know, even just 5 minutes now and then helping them on stuff can make a difference because lawmakers do worry when 20,000 emails descend into their inbox. There was just a question. Yes, there. Hi. I just like to thank both of you for talking to us about this issue today. Bernard, I had a question for you. You mentioned that

[1:06:50] I believe you mentioned that the previous Director General of ASIO was aware of this conduct. Do you believe that the current Director General of ASIO is continuing and endorsing this kind of behavior particularly against people like K? I'm glad you asked that question. I'm very pleased you asked that question. The first thing I want to tell you is that the Dilley cabinet bugging that was outside what ASIO should do

[1:07:20] and there'll be on the ANU web a paper I I've I've delivered on this on the 11th of June. The Australian National University web has a lengthy paper I've done on this explains it in detail, but um um there are lots and lots of good guys in the Australian intelligence services. Lots of them. Lots of them. I've been lawyer for 30 years for their widows, um their families, them.

[1:07:50] And they're hurting at the moment. I think John will agree. There are lots of good guys in the CIA probably. And they they are seeing things they don't like going home and thinking about, but they've got no remedy, no recourse. Now, the current head of ASIO, Nick Warner, was special adviser to Prime Minister Howard at the time of the Dilley Dilley bugging. What more do you want me to say to keep me out of jail?

[1:08:23] May I add to that, Sule? Yeah, yeah, jump in. I have counted the number of friends who have walked away from me since my legal troubles began on one hand. And to a man, every one of them was instrumental in the torture program. Some of my strongest supporters and most generous donors to my defense fund have been former CIA officers and indeed about a half a dozen former FBI officers. When I first went on television and said

[1:08:55] that torture was official US government policy, two former deputy directors of the CIA emailed me. One to say that he wished me luck, that I had taken a hard road, but he wished me luck. And the other to say, I wish I had had the balls to do it myself, but I'm glad someone did. Wow. So, I know that there are like-minded individuals out there. Yeah. Some of them some of them are cowed. Some of them are afraid, you know, for

[1:09:26] their own safety or their own financial well-being. But, we're not alone. Our supporters are out there. So, it's really the in in many sense the politicians and the very top echelon in these agencies who need to be called account and made more transparent rather than the work a day folks who are who are just going about their job. Well, I think if you let me cut in, Soulette, I don't say just to be made aware. I want to tell you that I believe that the former director general of ASIO,

[1:09:57] David Irvine, who ordered personally, face-to-face, ordered witness K to to get the teams to bug the cabinet room, then went to become director general of ASIO, then got a warrant from Brandis to raid us and intimidate us. He and Alexander Downer, presently high commissioner and his Rolls-Royce in in in London, should be brought to trial in Australia. They should be put to their criminal trial.

[1:10:27] And that's what should be done because that that conduct uh that the former director uh public prosecutions, Nick Cowdery, in um New South Wales, Nick Cowdery's got the papers. It's a clear prima facie conspiracy to defraud. Uh we prosecute company directors all the time. Why are politicians who commit the same misconduct, fraudulent criminal activity above the law? Just tell me, why? Um um

[1:10:57] And how come they can use the uh police and the rest as as as means and ASIO to intimidate people who reveal their criminal activity? That's what happens. I think we have time for a one or maybe two more questions. Maybe one last question down here in the front in polka dots. Oh, I So, this could be a double-edged question, but I guess is there a threat to warrant some level

[1:11:30] of secrecy and um perhaps not uh transparency to the public that they do need protection from to conduct, I guess, spying activities? Oh, John and I are going to agree with that. I mean, uh You've got uh you know, we lord our what is it, special air service, the SAS. We lord and we're patriotic about our army forces. You've got equally brave and equally dangerous activity going on in

[1:12:02] our intelligence services in many respects. And and that's what John and I were just referring to. Um the courage of people, some are coward, some follow orders, some object to orders. There's a lot of issues there. And I think the message is not not in any way to denigrate our intelligence service. Our message is we'll support you if you stick to the rule of law and report orders that breach the rule of law. Um John, did you have thoughts on

[1:12:34] that? Amen. I I cannot agree with that any more strongly. There are so many There are so many things that really ought to remain secret. For example, um people who are risking their lives to work with our services in order to to help ensure that our citizens are safe. So, certainly I believe in in secrecy of some things, but as Bernard says, waste, fraud, abuse, and illegality needs to see the light of day. And I mean, you know, at the CIA, Soulette, uh

[1:13:05] we're taught to believe as part of the CIA's culture, we're we're taught to believe that everything is a shade of gray. And that's just simply not true. Some things are black and white. Torture is black and white. Crimes against humanity are black and white. So, if you witness something like that, you have to come forward, whether it's through your chain of command or to the press or whatever it is. In the courts, great. Uh but sure, some things ought to remain secret while crimes ought not to remain secret. Um good point. All right. Well,

[1:13:35] I think we will um go to wrap up this session this afternoon, but I hope you guys have both learned something and got some insight, and I can see some of you still wearing your very dark sunglasses you've worn inside the tent here the entire session. Um but I would like you to please put your hands together and thank our very special guests today. Thank you. Fantastic. Good. Thank you so much for coming to Splendour Forum.

[1:14:07] Nice to see you.
