Title: Ο Τ.Κυριακού πρώην πράκτορας της CIA μιλά για όλα στον Αλ.Τσ
Show: Militaire News
Date: 2025-08-07
URL: https://youtu.be/gYIewDz5Q-c
Duration: 85:00

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[00:00] Heat.

[00:43] [Music] Now you must have indication that uh we recorded.

[01:14] >> Oh yes. and I I accept it >> that I have finished here at the American college anatia here in so I can say that we both have u an American I would say imprint in our side inside ourselves and um uh I have your book yeah >> ah thank you no I I didn't bought it these days I have bought it uh when I first find out about you

[01:50] well and um uh I heard that when you're entering the langly you say don't believe what you see. Is that true? >> When I enter langly >> yeah uh it says a sign don't believe what you see. No. >> Is that >> he says uh I only regret that I have but one life for my country.

[02:21] >> Well, okay. So, and um I have uh I have seen most of your interviews and your presentations. Uh I have seen your participation on democracy now and um I'm I'm following you all these two years or three maybe I don't know when we became friends uh it came up I didn't know the existence of you but I saw with Mr. the

[02:53] papological interview. And I said, >> I get >> that was years ago. >> Years ago. >> And I said, "Oh, I didn't know that we have a Greek guy working in things like that." And then I start to uh follow your uh your agony, I must say, uh in in various issues, not only on uh on things like moralities or your ex uh

[03:24] work or things like that, but also about democracy and about uh the dangers that we we face in in our times. And I I I'm I'm thinking that it is not only in the USA that democracy is is on crisis. It is also here in Greece and I do believe also in Europe in various ways. So uh please allow me. I have some uh have wrote few things and then um

[03:56] you can share your thoughts. One thing that is u in times of crisis it seems to be that is so thin the layer of democracy as it represents a system that creates in the international um uh labor uh international division of labor and uh that uh it seems that when the financial crisis is actually arriving here in the in

[04:28] various countries like uh USA like in Greece it seems that uh this worldwide in inequality that's creating start eating the democracy also inside of the of the original let's say he hemonic countries like USA like Britain like uh and um I was thinking that the crisis of 1928 1933 it was also a crisis of uh

[04:59] democratic institutions in USA. It was also almost a coup that was tried that time. It was also uh an attempt of assassination of President Roosevelt. And um I was wondering if really you think that uh democracy is facing serious problems in USA and also in countries that was uh uh adopted like

[05:30] Greece for example. Yeah, that's a good question and uh I think the answer is definitely yes. I think that democracy is is under threat in the United States. You know, one of the things that's that's always been a mystery to me here is how few Americans realize how right-wing the country uh for example, our Supreme Court is very conservative and we've just uh we've just banned for all intents and purposes, we've banned abortion across

[06:02] most of the country. Um now we're taking uh books school system. uh because they mentioned things like slavery uh for example slavery is a fact American history till 185 uh people own human beings here this is something we can't just never happen uh but in many uh state in the s United States uh they ban any mention of

[06:34] slavery they b any mention of of being gay Okay. They ban me, right? We had protests just yesterday because one of our large military bases, Fort Bragg, uh changed its name to Fort Liberty. >> Uh now, Fort Bragg was named after a general Bragg who was a southern general in so he was a troop and he was a slave owner and he's a racist. So why are we

[07:05] honoring him by naming the largest uh the largest military base in America after him? And people protested because they wanted to keep the name. You know, we saw what happened on January 6th. And uh the people who participated in January 6 uh riots >> are no less energized now. They really believe that the election was stolen from Donald Trump. they really wanted to kill uh Nancy Pelosi uh and they would

[07:38] do it again if they had the opportunity. So I I believe that democracy is under threat in the United States. It's under threat from the right wing and it's something that we have to all be attuned to and aware of and to protect against. >> Okay. Uh well I don't know it is one of of my questions. Do you really think that Donald Trump was so great danger

[08:09] about uh United States um uh citizeny or um it was um maybe a way to create um a division inside of the country. Why why I'm saying that I I was thinking about the division in uh in in United States for example it is uh that I was hearing for example in the

[08:41] uh world economic forum various uh participators during the Trump presidency that was saying that USA will stop to be uh I the country that used to be as a power as international power as the top power in the world and uh we see on these years that they have passed in the last three years for example that uh for example US dollars

[09:14] has stopped or not stopped but has limited as a currency. >> Yes. first of all on um I think it's now it's 47% 47 from 82 that was 60s for example on the other hand it um it seems that um uh is it has gone in a war that um

[09:46] I don't know if we're going to live again uh period as the second world war here in Europe. But um uh I was thinking that all these um for example the green the green energy uh the the price the cost of having green energy that is um huge comparing to conventional um like oil or like petrol or like and that um also um

[10:18] creates a huge uh um uh I don't know If it is really uh it is a reality or not, you will tell me. For the middle class and for the poor people, life is seems to be even more uh unbearable for going forward. It looks like to me there is middle class that is been destroyed slowly if um especially after the period of uh corona virus and um

[10:49] always a democracy stands on the middle class I mean as far as I know and um this is the things that I'm seeing and I'm saying well it is really They're trying to place United States from the top most powerful country in the whole world with its mistakes or with its goods because nothing comes straight good. But it really um it the

[11:23] division that you are describing me is helping because if United States get out of the way it it would create a vacuum phenomenon. Someone has to fill it >> and honestly I wouldn't like for me personally to be the Chinese. >> Yes. >> I think you understand what I mean. >> Yes. >> So your thoughts on that? >> Yes. I think that you've raised an important point here and and this is in

[11:54] part due to the shortsightedness of US policy. Um you know an African diplomat told me once when I was I was in Africa still with the CIA. I I was just visiting Africa and um he said you know uh you Americans come here and you promise us democracy but the Chinese come here and they promise us food. which one would you take? And it was to me it was a way of really encapsulating

[12:25] this whole issue in one sentence. >> Mhm. >> Um, one of the things that the United States has has made serious mistakes about is our reliance on the military. We have a military budget of more than $800 billion. Mhm. >> That's more than the next nine largest countries in the world combined. >> Yep. >> Well, as a result, uh we don't give the kind a that the

[12:58] Chinese Bel program uh calls for gives the kind of that uh the provides. For example, it's building the water system in Yemen. uh we collect and we don't even really do it cleanly giving just the weapons we give credit American defense contractors and that recipient country uses those credits to buy that but really we're just

[13:30] subsidizing Mexican uh arms industry. So that's point number one. Number two is I mentioned a minute of how conservative this country is. One of the one of the issues that comes out of that is that so many Americans are against any form of printing. They hate the idea of giving away American taxpayer money to foreign countries. Now without foreign aid,

[14:02] why would any country want to do anything to the United States? So when we go to these countries and we say we want you to vote this way in the United Nations or we want you to join us in Afghanistan or we want you to support us in Libya. Why would they if we refuse to give them anything? Now if we're not giving them anything and the Chinese are, who are they going to side with? They're going to side with the Chinese. You mentioned a moment ago how um how many fewer international

[14:34] transactions are using the dollar as the uh as the international currency. That's true. Uh just this year Saudi Arabia and China made a bill for oil to be paid in yuan. >> The Kuwaitis made the same deal with China to pay in yuan. uh where the money pay in a basket of currencies that does not include the dollar and includes all the other major currencies. The Russians since since uh the sanctions imposed on

[15:05] the Russians following the invasion of Ukraine, the Russians have been insisting that everything u all all their business deals be carried out in equals and that's work. Now we have the uh Brazilians, the Argent, the Uruguay, possibly the Chileans uh talking about uh uh a South American euro for example. >> Mhm. >> Where they wouldn't need dollar anymore.

[15:36] This to me is the is the the result of poor planning when managing an empire. All empires have an arc. The United States is on the back end of that arc. It's going down. And it's like we just as a government, we just don't see it. We don't see how we're denying ourselves things. For example, I don't know if you've ever been to the United States, uh, Alexandre, but, uh, we have a we

[16:07] have a a train system that we should be embarrassed about. >> We have second and third world airports that that we should be embarrassed by our airports. Our roads are a wreck. Our bridges are falling into the rivers below them because we spend all of our money on wetlands. All of it. Yes. But >> almost half of the entire budget is spent on weapons. >> Yes. But uh excuse me to interrupt you. Um but after the second world war, the

[16:38] the army industry was the base of uh the development. I mean um that was the reality uh that the arm industry became the base of the American economy development and things like that. And um >> yes >> and I don't know it got even worse with the the war in Ukraine and I was wondering who wanted that war because it will

[17:08] deepen the division inside the United States. Let me ask you something. Sometimes I think that let's say the deep state or whoever is that is the carrying the water for China in this >> because Russia and China was never I mean occasionally were in friendly relationship during the history wiping out Russia from the map or divided in four pieces. Who is going to uh guarantee that these four pieces will

[17:39] not fail one after the other on the Chinese regime influence? I mean, you understand what I mean? >> Yes. Yes. You're exactly right. You know, it's it's funny because much of the world for for exactly that reason, I think much of the world feels alone right now. Who do you trust? Who do you rely with? is that the United States, which as I said is on the back side of that arc, you can't join with the Russians. They have serious problems of their own right now. And the Chinese,

[18:10] the deal that the Chinese have been giving everybody all these years with aid is not as good a deal as everybody thought it was. you know, the Africans. We we had the um the president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo here a few a few months ago and uh and several of us met this thing and he was that they just don't they thought they Chinese and now they trust the Chinese because the Chinese came in with all

[18:40] these ideas of of aid these very generous ideas of aid and as it turns out the Chinese have to take ownership of everything and they he said Chinese never meant to pay for ship with offering the money >> but they control >> actually but they control most very serious um economic problem that lasts many years and one of the things that they were forced to do was to sell ownership of several of the major ports like in Pa for example

[19:12] >> and now you have the Chinese that are playing and I said you know that was supposed to have been attemp were very thick. It was supposed to have been to help the Greek economy and it was an improvement of relations between Greece and China. The Chinese intend to stay there forever. >> Of course, >> maybe not militarily, but economically >> and he said yes, but that's been >> most of the rare earth mines are being exploited by the Chinese by the Chinese in Africa.

[19:44] that is I mean uh has to do with semi control with all these advanced technology and things like that. It is a it is under the Chinese how you say operational apparatus and that it is >> you're exactly right >> and >> and they're smarter than the Americans are. >> I don't know if they're smarter. they're more methodical and also no one can deny that uh unfortunately for the United

[20:14] States it was um the the the way that have been treated sometimes the third world it is a shameful way and um I believe that that is one problem the issue today something like we're going to take a revenge of what uh you have done both also the European uh north countries that they used to be excolonial

[20:44] and now maybe it is the time they take their revenge but you see United States like it or not there was the guarant the guaranter of uh democratic institutions and that it is in a period of jeopardizing everything Maybe it is not only I mean sometimes when I see I will tell you exactly how I see things and so um maybe I will be more understandable to you.

[21:17] For example, it is like we've been forced here in Europe to change all the prospect all the way that we see human being. transhumanism, biomutation [Music] that it is something that they're trying to force in every and no matter what kind of culture you have, no matter what kind of historical uh background you

[21:49] have and it is it is I'm think Darwinism for example as a platform applied to socialist applied to neol liberals applied to the communist applied to the Chinese mauist and right now it is like that it is not a matter of humanity of democracy that the two or three systems are fighting each other each other. It is who will control this

[22:20] kind of power or like technocracy power with all these u or whatever Mr. Har is mentioning and who is going to control it and that I that is the the kind of the two forces or the three forces and right now in my views I believe maybe because the historical background of Russia. Russia was not only a Soviet uh power. It also was a terrorist power. It has a long uh

[22:52] background in the history. It has definitely a kind of culture that this kind of movements need to eradicate this kind of culture. And that is maybe the reason that we have the war here in Ukraine. I don't know. I'm sharing you my thoughts because whatever happens here with uh censoring for example censoring is a huge problem no matter if I'm speaking about Trump or if I'm speaking about vaccine vaccinations or

[23:22] whe I'm speaking about for example agriculture production here in Europe they are closing 3,000 farms in Holland and they're forbid they pay of course this this closing I mean uh these farms and the farmers, but also they sign a contract. They will never go again and um be farmer here in Europe or here in or there in Holland. Some things are changing forcibly

[23:53] and really honestly because I'm a deeply democratic. I believe that everyone should have his opinion. Everybody I don't I don't mind if you're gay or not. It is not a matter of doesn't have to do with me. It is up to your freedom. Whatever you want to do. You understand what I mean? And something is chasing in huge force. And that change comes for for example from the United States embassy. It comes in from NATO. It comes

[24:24] all these all these change are coming not from uh someone behind the scenes. you see it for example and that is worrying me and this is how I think about how I see the things maybe I'm wrong one of the things that people forget or ignore and you you've made a a a good point here is how many moving parts are involved in

[24:56] carrying out a foreign policy uh because Nothing really is bilateral. Everything is multilateral. And this is something that often times even at the very high highest levels of government, we don't recognize and we don't plan for. Uh we lament the fact here in the United States that it's harder for us now to maintain an empire

[25:29] uh than it has been at at points in the past. Uh that shouldn't be what the conversation is. the convers the conversations how to the bar uh how promotes American um manufacturing and business abroad and that's just not it's just not what we're focused on and it's it's to the detriment over the of of the United

[26:00] States we're seeing it everywhere we're seeing it with with countries for example like or countries that are friendly with us like Mexico for example or Brazil telling us we don't want any part of Ukraine more this is your problem it's not our problem uh we're seeing it through for example when we vote and we we complain about their human rights practices then they respond to us by saying what about what you're doing in Yemen

[26:31] you know you're the ones that sell the Saudis and the Amiratis all the weapons and the and the jet fighters that are killing women and children. We're not doing that. You're doing it. And then we the third part of that, at least in my view, is we also have um in many cases poor leadership. Um I know I know Tony Blinken. I worked with Tony Blink on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He's a very nice man, but he owes his entire adult life to Joe

[27:03] Biden. every job he's ever had in his life has been working for Joe Biden. So, he's not the Secretary of State because he's the smartest, most forwardthinking >> strategist that the United States could identify. And he's the Secretary of State because he's been friends with Joe Biden for the past 30 years and he's worked for him. That's it. You know, I had I had dinner with the Russian not dinner, I had lunch with the

[27:33] Russian ambassador a week ago yesterday and we were talking about the foreign minister Lavrov. >> Mhm. >> And I said, you know, when I was assigned to the United Nations, uh, Lavrov was the Russian ambassador to the United Nations. And I said, uh, all of us admired him because he was such a good diplomat and he was working with so much less than what the what the other major western uh ambassadors were working with, you know, the the the

[28:06] ambassador Negroanti when I was there and he had a a billion dollars budget and the the might of the United States behind him. You look at the British ambassador, the French, the Chinese, all of them had more than what Lapov had. Yet he was seen as the the most powerful, the most important, the most strategic ambassador at the United Nations. Well, why wasn't it the American ambassador? Because the American ambassador wasn't focused on

[28:37] diplomacy. the the American ambassador was focused on on America's many wars uh around the world and that catches up with us after a while. After a while, other countries begin to overtake us economically. The Chinese, this belt and road thing has been going on for decades. The Chinese have been very deliberate and very quiet about it. >> Yeah. >> They don't hold it in our faces uh like we do military sales. everybody

[29:08] else and look what's happened. They've overtaked us. So they were able to to work better than we were. >> Do you think that have influenced the inside policy of United States because I mean after uh especially during Clinton and after the Clinton presidency the the relationship with China, United States became so close. I mean on not

[29:38] only culturally but uh only technological advantages or uh things like that. I mean all this breakup came suddenly for example 2 years ago. Uh you understand what I mean especially during the presidential last presidential uh elections of the United States. Suddenly it appeared to be something hostile a thing or a relationship that used to be so sweet and cooperative.

[30:09] >> Yes. Yes. And and let me add something to that. There are, no matter how bad things get between the United States and China or the United States and Russia, they can still co-op on in different areas. And I mentioned this to the Russian ambassador. I don't care how hot the war gets, we can still cooperate on counterterrorism, counter narcotics,

[30:40] and counter proliferation. We should be able to set aside other differences in order to cooperate on these issues that are important not just for us but for everybody in the world. And I said when I was stationed in Afghanistan, one of the things that I learned very very early on was that Afghanistan produces 93% of the world's heroin >> and almost all of that heroin Yes. >> almost all of that heroin goes to Russia and Iran. They have the highest heroin addiction rates in the world.

[31:12] Well, the United States has a heroin problem, too. And this is an area where we can we can cooperate that has nothing to do with politics and it has nothing to do with fighting a hot war. >> Now, let me make like make a question now. >> Mhm. >> Before uh before Taliban take the power 20 years ago, they have eradicated. No, after the Taliban took power, they have eradicated

[31:43] >> Afghanistan used to be the producer of uh popay and urine of 80% of the world production. They diminished to 5% as far as I remember and then suddenly a war begins in Afghanistan and then I'm seeing photos and I don't know if the photos are real or not. I see British and American soldiers guarding the pop uh the popey fields and I say >> yes >> well this war was happen did happen to

[32:15] protect the production or you understand what I mean I mean you know that uh >> and and I'll I'll add something to that I went to Afghanistan in 2011 when I was with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. John Kerry was the chairman and I went to do a study on heroin uh production. So I flew to Bram Air Base and they make

[32:47] a helicopter to the village of Lashbar in Telman. And so I said, I I want to talk to a um a puppy farmer. Her poppy. Oh, that's a very bad idea. I said, no, no, it's important for my study. I have to do this. So we drove out to Lasha and we see a farmer out in the field

[33:18] taking care of his puppy and we got out. It was Jeeps, four or five jeeps, and I had a translator with me. So, we were talking and I said to him, and it it's funny in retrospect. It wasn't funny at the time, but now it's funny. I said, "Why don't you grow things that have two growing seasons like onions or pomegranates or tomatoes >> to eat?" >> It goes like this.

[33:50] He said, "The Americans told me in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were hiding, I could grow all the poppy I wanted. And now you come here and you tell me I can't grow poppy." >> You're pulling my leg. And >> I said, I said, "What American told you you could grow poppy?" And my military handler said, "That's it. We have to go. It's too dangerous here. We have to go. Everybody in the jeeps." So I put in my report I believe the

[34:21] American military is protecting the puppy farmers. I don't know why, >> you know, >> but they're doing >> I will tell you something. Taking in account for example on World War II uh CIA or OSS at that time. >> Yes. >> Uh it was it has a close relationship with the Italian mafia. So Oh yeah. >> They could help them and did help them to make um uh the take the taking of

[34:52] Sicily. >> Yes. And then after the after after OSS turned to CIA, we see that uh the American mafia because it didn't have the ability to rebuild its empire >> in United States, it built it to Kuba. >> Yeah. And we see that on the background mafia and CIA cooperating helping Sam

[35:23] samosa I think was the >> years >> and now you know it was also with Oliver North the Iran Iraq gate contrast uh scandal. It seems to be that we see something but also underneath or maybe on the black oper black operations, not all the CIA maybe a part of it but a very strong one is going along with the international drug cartel or you know

[35:56] uh it puzzles me many times when I I read this contradictions between war against drugs and the other hand. I mean it was something very serious concerning Mexico or Escobar and then I'm finding out the following thing that Escobar was keeping so much real money 32 billion US in various areas when United States had printed $200 billion I

[36:26] mean he was keeping real money you understand about money fragmentation and that was a huge problem I I mean he was creating let's say inflation in the United States because you don't print the money that is circulating you're printing only part of it a fragment much and and then of course you're going to take out Escobar you know because he has literally one one tenth or whatever it was this 33 billion that time I mean was huge real

[36:59] money and he said >> the actual actual cash >> the actual cash and I it. Okay. Did was I mean was this the reason that they took out Escobar and they brought uh on the front the Cali cartel gentlemen of Kali. >> Yes. When you are you know this is the way that I'm reading history and this is why I enjoy so much that I'm now I'm talking with you and this is it's getting possible. I mean what is real and what is not real? What is true and

[37:31] what is not true. So what your thoughts are on that? >> Well, people have asked me that question many times over the years, and there's a there's an easy answer, but it's a little bit cynical. Um, the United The CIA has never cared about drugs. They don't care at all. They don't care if everybody in the world is addicted to drugs. For most of their existence, they

[38:02] cared about communism. They wanted to stop communism. And if they could if they could convince the communist rebels in Colombia or Venezuela to help them, >> then >> cultivate as much cocaine you want. We don't mind. What the hell? They don't there there's a there's a television series here in the United States on Netflix. Maybe you saw it. It's called Nars. >> Yeah, of course I saw it. Yeah.

[38:33] >> Well, you know, it it's written from DA perspective. And China says they're going to go catch Pablo Escob just as they're going to catch the Ki cartel. the station is chief is there and he up the whole >> freeze it. Yeah. >> Those those were his troops and it's because this guy this cartel to communist rebel

[39:06] they don't care that that's the EA. >> Okay, listen. Let me ask something now. What is the Okay, you're not cynical. You are immoral. It's not just totally different because when you fight communism for example like what I mean is the strangulation or the how you say whatever is strangling human liberty you are standing from a high moral point. >> Yes. >> Okay. And so you you should serve this

[39:39] kind of values and morality. If you are uh sabotaging these things and then it is it is logical that it's going to okay it's going to influence you is what will corrupt you eventually I think >> yes yes and you have to ask what kind of country do you want to be do you want to be the shining beacon of hope for democracy and civil rights and civil liberties and human rights or do you

[40:12] not? Do you want to be the arms dealer that allows for trafficking in trafficking because of your obsession with communism? You have to ask what kind of country because you can't be both. It has to be one. The United States has never made that that choice. They want to be both. They want to go embassy to embassy and tell people you need to respect human

[40:42] rights and you need to respect the rights of the minorities and you need to respect religious tolerance and then at the same time we have secret prisons and torture programs and assassination squad kidnapping teams. >> You're talking about which you're talking about um the secret services of in the United States. I don't know if it's about C or CIA or about FBI. You're talking about that kind of operators existing. >> No, I'm talking I'm talking about things

[41:14] that the CIA does where another example there's a life example. >> Um I was working in a Middle Eastern country and um I was a human rights officer. >> Human human. Human. You were human. uh >> rights officer. >> Ah human rights officer. Okay. >> So it was my job at the embassy to monitor human rights of that country and I had to write reports for 30 years.

[41:44] >> Okay. >> So uh there was a pro-democracy demonstration. The police arrested a 15year-old boy and they took him to the police station and they beat him to death. They killed him. And then they called his father and said to the police station and pick up the bot. >> Okay. >> So I went to see the minister of of interior and I said, "Your highness, you cannot you cannot beat a 15-year-old to death for participating in a

[42:16] pro-democracy march, a peaceful demonstration." I said, "I I have to report this to Congress, and this may your your arms purchases from us." They were buying F-16s at the time. 15 minutes later, I leave and the CIA station chief come for a meeting and he says, "Don't listen to what the human sky is telling you. We want you to open a prison for us so we can torture people

[42:48] here. or better, you torture me and then you give us a report of that they say and we'll give you $100 million. So who is he going to listen to? Is he going to listen to me or is he going to listen to the station? >> Were you always a ramblefist? >> Say that again. >> Were you were always a ramblefist or it came as you were growing up? >> You know what? Really? I mean, that's a good question.

[43:20] >> No, it was not not when I was growing up. I was always I was always the good boy. I was always the one who want to be adults and do the right thing and get good grades and go to good school and get a good job happily ever after. >> Mhm. And then I got to the point where, you know, I got to the CIA and I started to see things that were happening and I thought to myself, this is wrong, wrong, wrong. This is against the law. It's a

[43:52] violation of human rights. Somebody has to say something. So I waited. Who's going to say something? And then nobody says anything. I'll give you another example. The night that we captured Abu Buba in Farabad Pakistan. >> Mhm. >> We caught dozens dozens. >> It was 14 houses different attack as I remember. Yeah. >> There were so many al-Qaeda be caught

[44:22] like we put keep them all in the safe house. So we put them all in the jail in fab and we were bringing them to the safe house 10 at a time for interrogation. Well, the first group of 10 came in and one of my colleagues brought them in and they all had hoods on. Their heads were covered and I said,"Wh do they have hoods on?" And he said, "We don't want them to see our face." I said, "Are you seriously telling me that you have never read the Geneva

[44:53] Convention? You can't put hoods on them. It's a war crime. Take those hoods off." And he said, "If you take those hoods off, I'm going to report you to headquarters." And I said, "Oh, I'm going to report you to headquarters for committing a war crime. Take those hoods off." And I pulled the hoods up. We reported each other to headquarters. And I got in trouble. >> Of course you got to get in trouble. Are

[45:23] you serious? Of course you will be the one going to be man. No. really I mean okay I I I I don't I I see that no I know I have sense that you're a really smart person I don't I don't believe that you are naive and uh I believe that also the training that you get when you're working for such huge um so famous um company or whatever how you going to call it it's a it's something really

[45:56] beyond the limits of of an average person I'm not I'm not saying that everyone has to be genius but you have to be above average in many ways to handle things on uh on a field. Okay, maybe on as an analyst just need your brain. You don't need the the other things. But anyway, so it is it is surprising me that I mean really surprised me because first of all the Geneva Convention is about uh how you

[46:29] say recognized uh combat combatant. It's not about that kind of prisoners. So and uh also uh you know I have I have found out the manual of enhaggation and I you know I read it all. It was surprising me. Uh you do that uh water broading for example, how you call it? Water

[47:01] >> water boarding. >> Yeah. 10 seconds and then 20 seconds you leave it and then you can do it twice a week for example and you can do it I mean you're going to keep a guy in a cold water so this minutes this and this is how many times you can do it that and you can do it no not the next week the week after I mean it was huge sophisticated scientific analysis on the ability of the human body to take to the

[47:32] limit and and break it. Amazing. It's amazing. I don't know. Um maybe I don't know maybe when you're fighting u terrorists that you have created I mean taking advantage taking in account that al-Qaeda was created by the United States. Maybe you have to this kind of methods. >> Um >> uh I don't know. Do you think that they are they keep working and and using this

[48:04] uh manual? >> I I think probably no. Uh only because the the the real answer is we don't know. Nobody knows. >> Nobody knows. I think probably no because at the very end of the Obama administration, President Obama ordered that the CIA respect the rules that were laid out in the Army Field Manual. >> Mhm. >> And the Army Field Manual says he do

[48:35] >> and what you can't do and this is how you have to do it. That's that's great. But the Army Field Manual is an executive branch document. And so the executive branch, the office of the president, they can change the rules anytime they want. >> Mhm. >> And they can classify the change so that >> so that the rest of us don't know it's been changed. So I like to think that

[49:06] that we're not pushing people more like we do but I I don't know that that's the case >> because this I think this is what you have paid I mean on your 23 months it was 23 months finally I mean it is fun it is a funny book in many ways yeah a really good one I didn't read the other I didn't read the other one that you had right the reluctant uh spy.

[49:37] >> No, I didn't read. I mean, why you read it? I have it here with me. Spies like us. So, can I ask you a few questions about uh 17th of November? >> Sure. >> Okay. Now few days ago I don't know if you it came to your attention uh was uh a guy that he was working with um Richard WS at that time that he wrote a

[50:09] book about uh the assassination. >> Yes. And yeah. >> Yeah. And uh because of my nature, I was always reading and analyzing anything that had to do with 17th of November. And um so let me see the question how have uh how I have write it because it

[50:42] has to be in a way that you can probably answer it. There is an extensive um extensive number of books and articles that connect for example Brigati Rosi with uh with secret services especially because of the assassination of Aldor.

[51:13] So I um I I sometimes I have asked myself and I will give you the reasons that I am asking um that probably a part of 17th of November was actually working knowing or not knowing for um um for secret services. Why I say that? There are some assassinations that actually looks like clean some uh uh competition. For example,

[51:44] we are cleaning an old card of people like in the press or on the arm dealing and creating a vacuum that will be fulfilled later by new incomers of that. and uh all that contracts under the I say let's say we do it because we are anti-Americans we are anti- capitalist and we are doing what our moral Yeah.

[52:15] Okay. Now as I was reading the murder the assassination of Mr. with Richard Wells. When I read the unauthorized biography of George Bush, it was for surprise for me that in a period of month, first of all, George Bush became uh director of Central Agency. >> Yes. uh breaking the what the Democrats wanted didn't want

[52:47] him because I think there were some checks that were being found on the hands of those the burglars of the Watergate that were coming from a Bush company and also dissolve the the two uh Pike and Church Commission that not only were looking about uh the whereabouts of CIA but also they were on the procedure to impeach Mr. Kiser. >> Yeah.

[53:17] >> So and that happened in a month and also I read that he was buried in the Arlington cemetery something that has to do with the military not with officers of um no matter who we were. And then and then I I really asked myself is something that we can see as quibono that it means that did they use create did you know cooperation with gates you know I mean I

[53:49] have read few uh for example how huch took out from uh Soviet Union it was a cooperation between uh the United States secret service KGB because KGB gave the the memor the memor of uh and then they were printed here in uh in the west and then uh they they imported back to so so the Russian people to know what is styism stalinism is about. So I so I said brutally I said

[54:22] to myself and uh really thought did they been used by the secret services also is the way how they how they were caught up and >> yeah this is my first question if you can answer answer I don't know >> I'm sorry >> you probably saw in the book that the night that uh that Welch was killed,

[54:54] one of the CIA officers had to be physically restrained, held back because he wanted to go to the Russian embassy and kill the KGB residant. >> Mhm. >> Um so in the in the beginning in when I say beginning, I mean just those first few days after Welch was killed, >> Mhm. >> there was a school of thought. This was the KTB, the headsets. The Russians reached out to us and they said,

[55:24] "Listen, promise it us." Now, in Sikko that night, there just happened to be a man walking his dog when Welch was killed. I found in 1998. He was the Bulgarian. >> He was the Bulgarian. Okay. >> The Bulgarian and I went to knew him

[55:57] and he said he heard the shot but he didn't know him from and then he thought oh it must he said but I can hear you. It was >> it was not us. And then I went to Romania other CIA officers. The Romanians, the Bulgarians, um, both opened us, just open them, come look at anything we want. So we took some translation from CIA headquarters.

[56:29] We looked at everything they had. There was no involvement of secret services. And then of course you know in the days after both killing >> you know the whole story with uh Jean Partra and and >> yeah it's a famous story now and that's when you started looking you know I I'll tell you that from 1975 from December 23rd 1975 until

[57:02] until 1999, >> we had probably 5,000 names in our CIA databases >> of possible vehicity members because we didn't we didn't know who was in this group. >> Their security was so good. They were so secretive in their position. So out of all the names, we had like three of them right and the

[57:33] others were mystery to us. >> Okay. >> But even with the ones that we had, right, just didn't know where they were. I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself. The bottom line is it was a only a very short period of time that we thought secret services were involved in Welch's killing. We believed the Russians when when they told us they had nothing to do with it. You see, because we had an agreement with the Russians, you don't understandable. >> Yeah. You don't kill our people, we

[58:05] won't kill your people. It was as simple as that. >> And that's why we were able to to operate in the same city at the same time for all those decades because we had agreed like gentlemen that we would not kill each other. So they came to us immediately and said, "We promise it was not us." >> And then, you know, as we did the investigation, um, there was no evidence that the Russians were involved. >> Just nothing. >> I didn't mean that the Russians were involved. I I I meant if it was an

[58:36] inside job because >> Oh, no. No. The CIA doesn't do that. We We hear that a lot. You know, the the inside job. >> Question. the uh you know you kill your own people to to what's the French word for it? It's a provocator. >> Oh yeah. All right. >> Um now we don't do it >> because >> we would rather kill somebody else. >> Of course. >> I know you have to kill me after we finish that conversation.

[59:07] Well, uh because I I mean the first question that came in my mind it was the how did they know who was the CIA controller in >> oh no that's the easy one >> I mean how do you know the face I mean what he's saying because this is not a kind of a a tip or information you can find it you don't you don't know now I mean how about >> no it was different then the CIA had an officer who got broke. His name was

[59:38] Philip Ag. >> Philip Ag, >> right? So, Philip AG published uh a Clipper Action newsletter it called and he listed the names of all of the >> He was also Richard Welsho that he worked with. That's right. >> Okay. >> And um Welch's name was there. Welch's name was up by a Greek newspaper that published it. M this paper no longer exists and I can't remember the name of it. Um but anyway they published the

[1:00:09] name and they published the address and uh when Welch first moved he came from Chile and when he first moved to Gree >> Chile or Peru Chile or Peru? >> Uh Peru. Peru. Thank >> you. And uh they asked him if he wanted to move to to France. >> He said no. This was a beautiful house. The embassy had owned it for many years. He's just going to move into that house. So, it was the information was easy to

[1:00:40] find. People knew where the CIA station chief lived. It was the information was up there. And I'll tell you the crazy thing is the American embassy still owns that house that the Marines the Marine offices who work in the embassy all live in that house. Oh, >> and on the day that I moved to Athens, they said, "We're going to put you in Nordine's house in >> Kician." >> I said, "Absolutely not."

[1:01:14] Beautiful house and we own it. They said they found his head on the roof of house next door. And you want me to move into that house? >> It's a haunted house. Absolutely not. >> But you don't think that uh well, okay, it was not uh of foreigner secret services. I don't know. But it it looks like they were making contracts. And I will tell you something someone told me here in Greece.

[1:01:44] Okay, maybe it's true, maybe it's not true. I believe that there was no reason to lie to me. But he told me the day that we killed Baguyanis, assassinate Baguyanis, Bakuanis uh gave a phone call to his secretary to her secretary that he going to pass by office instead of go straight to Bullin to take an envelope.

[1:02:15] Uh so the next day from the send from the Greek intelligence services they heard the phone call. So they thought how who could know that he will pass from his office and not go straight to the bullying? who had the ability to hear him in the same time

[1:02:48] I mean you know real time because at that time they they didn't have the ability to um to intercept the call in real time they was taking the tapes in there and and um you know I mean you thinking all right how did they know and the place who was I don't know this is >> but don't forget get too that that one of the things that was very very good at

[1:03:18] was long-term surveillance. They would follow people for a month or longer. >> But this means an organization with 100 people. I mean, it's not a matter of one or two. >> Oh, no. I I know. I I get it. But they were they were very good at being able to change their plans quickly. um and to and to and to drug plans. We got a call when I was in Greece in 1999. Uh the the American ambassador was uh

[1:03:52] Nicholas Burns. >> Yeah. >> Um Bert got a call from uh one of the shipping families and um and he said uh I love and I I want your help. So several of us met with him in his uh golden and uh I'm I'm deep followed. I see the same man watching my apartment. I followed my car. So we took all the

[1:04:23] information and we said you should be you should be greed and and stay with me for four, five or six weeks. So we took the information, we gave it to AP and we gave it to the uh the and he left for Switzerland. He stayed Switzerland um for 6 weeks. >> The license plates that he got were all stolen. All of them. Mhm. And we were

[1:04:54] never able to find people that were doing this. But we were convinced that this was that they were going to kill him. He was just alert to it. >> Yeah, of course. I understand. >> And um and it saved him. Now, what they did with Bakuani um you know, they hit him in the lofty the apartment building >> and then they went over the hill into there's such there's such chaos at the time. Even though he wasn't supposed to

[1:05:24] be there at that time, he normally wouldn't be there at that time. >> They were used to people being aware of their aware of their surroundings and changing their plans and then adjusting to the changes. >> Isn't Isn't that uh John isn't that huge? I mean, it is not a matter of five, six, seven people. It is something that has a whole organization being expertise, being trained. I mean, >> oh no, no, no. You'd be surprised. When I was when I was surveillance at the

[1:05:54] CIA, we never had missions, Steve. Never. It's It's too alerting. I will tell you one story that I think you'll like. >> I was talking once to a French intelligence officer. >> Mhm. >> And he told me that he was doing surveillance on an Iranian nuclear scientist. >> Okay. and he said this nuclear scientist was very well trained by the Iranian intelligence services. >> So all day long as he's walking around

[1:06:27] Paris, he's going like this to look behind him. He said that the French had 50 people all walking towards him and then they would boop around >> and come again. But he's so worried about who's behind him. >> He didn't see who is in front of him. >> He never looked to see who's in front of him. He said they followed him everywhere. Everywhere. So there are ways to do it with a lot of people. There are ways to do it just a few

[1:06:58] people. It's much easier if you only have four. >> Of course, the whole I mean the whole story of the Gan is very impressing impressive impressive. I mean all these years been not uh in the dark doing all these uh different kind of assassination. I mean they have killed any kind of people. They have killed military officers. They have been diplomatic officers. They have killed political opponents. They have killed press

[1:07:30] owners. I mean it is not they have killed anything that they were targeting. I don't know. So I thought that uh so you don't think that there were a contract between uh them and someone that was u benefit from this kind of uh >> no but there were contracts between them and other groups. Uh there was cooperation with Ella and of course the uh the connection between Deafa Nobody

[1:08:03] and Ella was Christo >> he was the only person that we were able to identify who moved from >> Mhm. >> Um so Tutu was was a bad guy but there was cooperation with Carlos the Jack >> with >> uh the Carlos the Jacko >> Carlos the Jacko. Yeah. >> Yeah. There was cooperation with Carlos. There was cooperation with the Irish Republican Army. There was cooperation with the Libyan government, with the

[1:08:35] Palestinian factions, >> PLO, the Palestinian factions, but but not much. We saw much more of that with Ella was very happy to reach out to different groups and do training together and cooperate. And >> they were more open. I mean, after all, they were more >> Yeah. uh more in activism as I must say. >> Yes. >> Do they have any political affiliations? We always believed that they did and in

[1:09:08] the end we never find any but we always believed that there that there was some sort of we just could never vanish many things in the hales. >> It's a fascinating is it? >> Yeah of course it is fascinating. It's a fascinating because also Islams let's say we have um for example till that time till the trial of the gan

[1:09:40] uh we could understand what means political activism of course you don't go and kill someone >> uh but uh it took also inside like a 2000 patriot 2001 uh your patriotic uh how you call it uh patriot act. >> Yeah. >> So it took inside things that could do without harming others. You understand what I mean? Patriotic act was very

[1:10:10] tight. I mean you what you want freedom or security whatever. So after the trial of uh and during the trial of the of 17th November things on on political perspective have been start been getting tired and uh very easy stigmatizing you. >> Mhm. Mhm. And uh this is going even worse and our time

[1:10:41] uh as a as a seed and this is the reason that I I mean I wanted to ask you if from your experience >> well who you should talk to. Have you ever spoken to Brady Keley? >> I have been exchanged emails with him about two years ago. one year ago we have exchange emails because I wanted uh he he has a huge archive of >> that's huge you know I was saying I was

[1:11:11] going to I wanted to write a book about that >> so I happened to be in Athens I don't remember why I was in Athens it was like 2017 I took my children or something and I had lunch with Brady and uh he gave give me a copy of his book. He said, "Oh, I heard you're going to write a book about 17 November." I said, "I'd like to. I've been thinking about it and I' I've been accumulating a lot of information." But my problem is the CIA, they don't want me to say anything. I think he's

[1:11:42] blacking everything out. >> So then I read his book >> and I wrote him a No. And I said, "Picky, I can't I can't write a book now." >> You have read everything. You would >> you my >> your hook is so good I can't keep >> well okay you you have so many I mean I believe you have so so many things that you have done so far and uh all this experience accumulated uh

[1:12:14] although that you are very young >> thank you I will I think I'm probably >> don't worry you're still young and I think it is a how do you say a future in front of you do you think that we are in um changing the subject that two things more that I want to ask you if you have time do you think that uh we are in the edge of a nuclear war >> I don't this is a question that comes up

[1:12:46] in Washington every day people are genuinely worried about a nuclear war but I think So um we I talked to the Russian last week and he said that that uh the Russians are not fools. >> The Russians >> they know that the Russians are not fools. He said that they know they understand of using it. And he said I would remind you the only country on earth that has

[1:13:18] nuclear weapons is the United States. And I said, "No, I expect but we we've heard lessons from here and we we know not to ever do this again." But he says that the Russian government has a longstanding no policy and uh that they will not use nuclear weapons. Yes. >> And I said, "What about tactical nuclear weapons?" >> Yeah. For example, >> or depleted uranium weapons as it

[1:13:49] happened. >> Exactly. Exactly. And he said that the depleted growing weapons are American that we don't really >> Yeah. And the tactical nuclear weapons the only the only place that we're seeing Russian tactical nuclear weapons is in the American press. So I hope he's right. I I think he probably is. I don't see any benefit to be using nuclear weapons. >> Who's going to benefit from that? But you know when you have I'm not talking about the Russians right now. uh I'm not

[1:14:20] taking them out of the equation but I have okay I have a theory everyone has you know a theory but I see that the how do you call it uh the financial sector of the west is on crumble during the stock market bubble whole casino

[1:14:51] and all this is getting in a as you're failing and failing and everything is coming tight and you need something to escape. It happened on the first world war. The financial system wanted to escape. It happens also in the second world war. The financial system wanted to escape and keep of course all that inequality

[1:15:21] in a global on a global basis. And this is what the war it wore me because if people like have you you have described that naivity or not so bright or not so being able to look far forward and you understand seeing only what is in front of me and uh I do I I do u I do worry about that prospect I mean that these people that have I mean 1% has u I don't

[1:15:54] 3,000 people owns 13 billion trillion US and it's huge. It is it really huge. Vanguard and Black Row controls 23 trillion. Uh you know a huge assets that have been accumulated all these last 20 years, 30 years or more in very few hands and they're struggling the real economy

[1:16:25] and they're trying this is what how I say maybe I'm totally wrong. It is like they're trying to escape through the war through distraction is a very um it is not the first time that the things think things like that happening. It happens before it really gets wor because rich people don't have any kind. This is the I mean they are cynicals. They don't give a damn about anything else

[1:16:56] >> but to keep the riches. >> So this is why what is worrying me. I mean, you know, we have here in uh we're in uh in Europe, we are in a way of demonstr industrialization. We are in a a demographic crisis. USA also is in demographic crisis. >> Okay. Uh so I mean they are asking us uh for for example green energy when we are getting fewer

[1:17:27] and fewer and fewer and let's say for example in Greece if we're 11,000 11 million for example our depth for every head is less if we getting now 9 million it's double the depth on every head I mean it's coming even more difficult to get out of this spiral equation and for for example the the European economy is been based on Germany.

[1:17:59] Germany was the the heart the pump of everything when it collapsing it collapse also the the Greek economy whatever left from it. So this is the reason that I made this question and if you have something in your mind. >> Yeah, I it's a good point. It's I I don't disagree with you. I think this is uh it's a it's a problem that's not unique to the United States certainly or even

[1:18:31] to Europe. Um >> it is like someone is driving us to the bottom. >> Yes. And I see the forces that are huge. I I'm not a conspirator but I see really I see forces. I mean I see like the the World Economic Forum for example. It's a huge I mean >> who is going to ask the European the the World Economic Forum to say it is not an democratic institution. It is not be

[1:19:03] elected. there's uh 5,000 of most uh influenced people around the world. So this is some something like really I I I have that feeling that someone is is taken from here and is taken on the bottom of the maybe I don't know what is your feeling on that. >> No, I I think you've hit it on the head. I think that that's I think you're exactly right. I I'm not sure I could even add anything. >> Okay. And the last question for you.

[1:19:34] >> Mhm. >> It is well known that during the cold war CIA had created and fought also a cultural war. Popart a vanguard. She funded leftist newspapers, magazine, people from the socialist parties, socialist parties like uh Spain, Portugal, Italy, I mean whatever. >> Yes. Now

[1:20:05] I see that the war culture and forgive me is been promoted by the American embassy for example. >> Yeah. >> The gay parade uh pride parades or whatever. Um and I really all this cultural change on the prospect I have also mentioned before trans human the sexuality of the children sexualization of the children I

[1:20:36] don't know what is your opinion on this but it seems that comes from formal platforms I mean platforms of power and it is a it is um how in heaven civil how you say civil storm you know >> how I see it that it's taking everything under it you cannot I mean you cannot fight back so what's your >> yes yes you you are absolutely right

[1:21:09] about this this is a constant complaint from other uh countries uh about the United States forcing its own um moral and ethical standards on other countries. Uh you know, you know how hard it is if you're an American embassy officer and you're going you go to another government and you say, "Look, you know, we want you to to to uh vote uh yes on

[1:21:40] this United Nations Security Resolution." Okay, that's your job. But then you know how hard it is to go to that same government and say we want you to vote yes on gay marriage or we want you to vote yes on on trans uh medical care for trans children. >> Yeah that is that is not anybody should have medical uh uh care no matter if you are trans or not but when you are children I mean think yourself if you are 4 years old or 8 years old the world is a fantasy it's

[1:22:12] not a reality. Exactly. And and that's where we get into trouble pushing social to another country. >> Yes. >> So you agree that is a the same but it's a copy copy paste of uh the cold war era. >> Oh yes very much so. But then it's it's romantic now to think it is >> it's romantic to think back on the 1950s

[1:22:44] and the 1950s when we were taking Dr. and translating Russia and working with the smuggling into Russia. >> That's very romantic. They make these things. >> But no, if you don't think about things that it's deep is cutting edge culture issues. >> Yes. >> And we can get in trouble with this. Well, I I I I think from the bottom of my heart,

[1:23:15] please Heat. Heat.

[1:23:58] Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat. Heat.
