Title: CIA Spy: French Intelligence Was Basically Serial Killers
Show: Julian Dorey Podcast
Date: 2026-01-16
URL: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hxndFp3NmTM
Duration: 1:00:28

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[00:01] You know, the French, we had >> we had a little kurfuffle in the early 90s with the French. >> Oh, yeah. >> And they were very angry with us >> about what? >> Deservedly so. One of our young junior first tour guys got caught just going pushing a little too far. So, they expelled him, they expelled the chief, and they expelled a whole bunch of people. And so, for three, four years, we had a tough time. But the French were just such dicks about it that we ended up um getting orders that we weren't

[00:33] even allowed to transit de Gaul airport. And that was the only reason I was ever in France was just to catch a connecting flight at De Gaul to go here or there wherever in the Middle East. Uh but a buddy of mine was I I forget where he was going somewhere in the Middle East and he he went no it was in Africa. He was going to Africa and the only way to get to Africa was through Paris at the time. Now you can just go directly to uh Morocco and then onward from there. But they took his laptop. He had a he had a

[01:05] secure laptop. So they're like, "Turn it on." So he turns it on. Open it up. He's like, "I'm not going to open it up. I have a diplomatic passport. I'm on the diplomatic business of the United States. This is the the possess the uh the property rather of the US Department of State. I'm not opening it up." So they took it in a back room. He said they had a railroad spike fastened to a table and they just slammed it down on the railroad spike, went all the way through the laptop and then they pulled it off and gave him his laptop back. So headquarters was like, "Okay, nobody can transit air uh de Gaul airport anymore."

[01:38] >> Wow. >> Yeah. They're just jerks about it. >> I've heard that they are incredibly talented in >> They're very talented. When I was overseas in uh Pakistan, my boss asked me if I would uh meet with a French intelligence officer. I said, "Sure." I was meeting with foreign intelligence officers almost every day and you just trade, you know, hey, I heard there's a safe house over here. I heard, hey, we they give me al-Qaeda safe house over there. And we just trade some information. So, uh, this French guy calls me and he says,

[02:08] "Meet me at the corner of, you know, A and B." I'm like, "Okay, you don't just want to meet at a restaurant or something?" "No, no, meet me at this corner." So, I go to this corner. It's in a residential neighborhood. I'm like, "What? Does he live here?" Like, "Why would he want me to come here?" And I'm standing on the corner and he comes peeling down the street, makes a quick right, reaches over and opens my door, and he's like, "Get in." And I said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no." [laughter] I said, "I don't work for

[02:38] you, and you're not using tradecraft on me." I said, "I parked right over here. I'll meet you at the Pearl Hotel restaurant coffee bar. not going to [ __ ] let you do a there's a term of art for the for the kind that kind of a pickup. No, no, no, no. You're not recruiting me. [clears throat] >> Yeah. We're going to have a cup of coffee and that's it. And then I never saw them again after the coffee. >> So, they're tough. >> Yeah. And they're murderous, too. You know, >> they're murderous.

[03:09] >> Oh, yeah. If you're a member of, for example, of Greenpeace, they're going to blow your brains out if you try to, you know, take over a ship or throw paint on a ship or whatever. They kill a lot of Greenpeace activists. >> The French intelligence does. >> Yeah. >> Like not the paramilitary. >> No, no, no, no, no. They're happy to go out and kill people. And that's why that's one of the reasons why we're not we don't have more of a presence in the Sahel right now in Africa >> because it's all French. They were all French colonies and the French are there just killing all kinds of al-Qaeda

[03:39] people. Yeah, sure. >> Oh, so they're killing al-Qaeda people. >> Yeah, that's fine. I have no problem, right? >> Mhm. >> So, they're like the French Head squad's nice. I mentioned in a podcast the other day that um I was giving a series of speeches all around the UK at the beginning of the year and um [clears throat] I had five speeches with my conversant being a a professor of English literature. I had

[04:10] five speeches with a uh kind of a belist actor and then five speeches with a retired MI6 officer. And um one of the things he said unprompted by me was [snorts] um you know we we really loved working with you guys until 9/11. And they said you all became serial killers after 9/11. And I said, "Yeah, unfortunately that's true. A lot of guys just went out to just kill as many

[04:42] al-Qaeda people as they could find. Nobody was charged with a crime or I mean none of the al-Qaeda people were ever charged with a crime. They were just taken care of. And then he says, "Yeah, you and the French, my god, the French love killing people." And I said, "That was that was kind of my understanding as well." >> It can it it obviously is a slippery slope because then you start cuz remember you're the good guy, >> right? >> And you're thinking, "I'm the good guy. God and country. I'm going to protect my country from the terrible Muslim

[05:13] terrorists. And you go blowing brains out and here you end up killing women and children and taking out the whole village. And >> that's the problem. Like I like >> as a taxpaying citizen that pays into these organizations, I will admit I wouldn't have a problem with, >> you know, very tactical strike killings of very well >> clear and present danger. >> Yes, >> is the criterion. But when you're blowing up a [ __ ] wedding >> cuz maybe two people are there, that's where I go.

[05:44] >> Or because there's a tall guy wearing white and then you blow up the funeral. >> Yeah. >> The next day just to make sure you got everybody. >> See, that's that's what I'm saying. It human nature >> every time. Doesn't matter who you are. Leads to strange slippery slopes. >> You hindsight 2020 at every time. >> That's right. >> And people die. And then you create propaganda. Then you become the bad guy. And then there's situations where >> there it is. >> Yeah. >> Right there. >> You now you were in

[06:14] trying to remember your exact timeline because you were working at Langley. You were the the chief historian for Saddam Hussein leading into leading into my first my first assignment. Yeah. In the director of intelligence. >> And then you were still there for a few years. And then what year again did you hit the farm? Oh, I didn't go to the farm until 1997. >> Okay, that's what I was going to say. >> I was halfway through my career. >> And they did they send you to Greece first? >> Yes. >> Okay. When did you get to Greece in 97

[06:45] as well? >> 98. >> Mhm. >> Okay. All right. So, that kind of takes away the Cuz what I'm what I'm interested in is like the French intelligence is You're not the first guy to say that. Like so many people are like, "Yo, look out for them. They're [ __ ] good." But like first question, how well do they get along with MI6? There's always been a strange rivalry between France and England. How well did those intelligence? >> It extends it extends to the uh to the organizations themselves. Um

[07:15] everybody knows by now what the five eyes countries are. US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. >> We have given each other literally cart blanch to do anything, to see anything, to go anywhere. We don't spy on each other. We literally had people sitting next to us from other intelligence services, foreign intelligence services from those countries. So, that's a very special relationship and it's even more important at some place like NSA than it

[07:45] is at CIA or FBI. Um, but there are no other countries like that. You know, the French France is a NATO country. It's in the European Union. There's close cooperation. We're good friends, but we don't give them everything like we do with the Five Eyes. So, you weren't on the ground in Europe till '98. >> Correct. >> But when you look at an event like Princess Diana's death in on August 31st, 1997. It happened in Paris. It

[08:18] happened in France. >> Is there any way the French intelligence doesn't know what happened there? I'm not saying they did it. I'm just [clears throat] saying like, do they they got to know? I would say they probably do. >> Yeah. >> What do you think happened there? >> You know, I really I really believe it was a series of of fuckups. >> The driver was drunk, being chased by the paparazzi. The paparazzi were overly aggressive. One thing led to the other. I don't remember if she was wearing a seat belt or not. She had a crushed chest. I think she wasn't.

[08:48] >> Um, yeah. I think it was just a one mistake after another. It's possible, >> but I don't think the royal family assassinated her. >> I agree. >> Yeah. I just I never saw the >> I I never saw that either. And also like I I don't I don't think Prince now King Charles is that good of an actor. Like I mean, you know, that was very >> No way. >> When you look at that, >> obviously they had their differences for

[09:20] sure, but as a mother of his kids and everything and there was definitely >> Mhm. some human [ __ ] going on there. >> I think so. >> Believe it or not, I know it's very easy to like dehumanize the royal family just because, you know, [ __ ] royal family, but >> they are humans. So, >> yeah, >> they are. >> But what's the, you know, we're talking about nuclear war. If you mentioned the Indian Pakistan example where maybe that would just be isolated which you know be for the best for everyone else but if there was something where it wasn't

[09:51] something like that and the US got involved what is the protocol in a situation like that? We all see the guy with the football carrying around the nuclear codes with with the president. Obviously the president has the say he makes the decision and then it's done. But is this something that that happens in 60 seconds if it needs to? Yeah, it is. It's this is a much easier uh question to answer if if you're asking about a situation in which the United States is not directly involved.

[10:21] >> So, yeah, we've got underground facilities like there's one um called Mount Weather that is uh that's on the Virginia West Virginia line. There's another one in Colorado where the president, the vice president, their families, the cabinet, congressional leadership, their families can be whisked away. Uh, everybody else, it's every man for himself >> for the rest of us. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. I live three miles from the White House, so I I don't think I'm going to

[10:52] make it out. What are you going to do? >> You won't feel anything. >> No. No. It'll be fast. um if there's a threat to the United States like we believed there could be on 9/11. >> Yeah, they'll implement that plan where >> the nuclear football goes with the president just in case we have to launch something, the codes are in there and uh and he can launch from Mount Weather or from Colorado, wherever he happens to be. Air Force One just flying in circles

[11:24] someplace. >> The thing that I wonder in the event of like mass nuclear strikes around the world happening is if the story of society completely breaks down and none of this stuff happens. Meaning >> right >> it starts and there's such chaos that people are like there is no president including the people around him I'm like [ __ ] you. Who are you? >> You have to expect that that would be a real possibility. Yeah, I I would think so. I mean, look, we've all we've all seen these post-apocalyptic

[11:55] movies or read the books. What was the uh the Irish uh the the long road? The something road. The road. That's what it was called. The [clears throat] road. Yeah. There's been a nuclear conflict. It's every man for himself. And it's just a story of this man and his son just walking down this road. You don't know where it goes, where they came from. Is that what it is? The road. >> Cormarmac. >> Cormarmac McCarthy. That's right. Um, they stumble on an underground bunker

[12:25] and they find a bunch of canned soup >> and then the dad dies and then the kid just keeps walking. That's how the book ends. >> Huh. >> Yeah. >> Very Irish. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like the good guy always loses and the moral of the story is there's no hope for anybody. [laughter] >> Irish. >> We got a pub right down the street if you >> There you go. >> Want to go live that out? >> Yeah. I I I I hate that, like I said earlier, I hate that we even have to think about that. >> Yeah. >> But it does feel like, you know, you

[12:56] look at these different conflicts around the world, including the ones people don't talk about, by the way. >> Do you ever see the episode of the original Star Trek where No, where Kirk and Spock, they beam down to this planet and this planet, the planet's leaders are yelling because the next door planet, they're having a war with them. And there's this announcement that everybody in group A has to go to the incinerator, right? So you go to the incinerator and you get incinerated. And

[13:27] Kirk is like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" And they said, "Oh, we came up with this uh treaty with the next door planet that since we hate each other, we're always fighting wars. There's no sense in blowing up all the buildings." So we have computer models that tell us how many people would have died if we launch you know XYZ uh weapon and so then we just summon that number of people to the incinerator and then they get incinerated so at least we don't mess up our our our

[13:57] planets and he's like no that's not a good idea [laughter] you have to negotiate peace and then he of course he ends up negotiating peace but it's like we're headed there this This is all predicted in 1968. >> Yeah. Art following life following art. >> Something I think about a lot. It does h it's just human nature like that imagination comes from something that's based in reality of how we think. >> Yes. >> You know. >> Exactly right. >> I was talking with someone recently. I I

[14:29] think it was Mike Rland about like seeing the Nolan Batman series recently. I hadn't watched it in years. >> But the things that Christopher Nolan in a [ __ ] superhero series, it's like supposed to be very fake and not of this world. >> The the pulse that he had his finger on >> with society. Think about the years he filmed those movies, 04, 07, and 2011. They came out in '05, '08, and 2012. the themes, elites versus the everyman,

[14:59] social chaos, people out for themselves, Gotham falling, falling from the inside. >> Tell me that you've seen Soilent Green. >> Soilent Green. No, >> Soilent Green is People. >> Soilent Green is People. So, Soilent Green >> came out in the early 1970s. It's one of the great >> science fiction films of all time. >> Um, stars Charlton H. Oh, I love Charlton. >> He's a cop in the megalopouloolis. We've had such a an explosion in

[15:30] population that from Boston to DC, it's just all one giant city. It's just all connected. So, he's a cop in what used to be called Philadelphia. And eggs are 100 bucks a piece. A jar of jelly is 150 bucks. There's one tree left in New York City and they had to build a fort around it so it could be protected. It was the only tree that's left on the east coast. And um like I say, he's a cop and he lives with this

[16:00] old man who uh was a professor, so nobody can afford to eat. So the government provides these little nutritional chips. There's Soylent Green, which is colored green, soilent red, soilent yellow, and it's like a $1.98 a pound. So that's what everybody eats, what everybody lives lives on. In the meantime, they're are such huge riots of hungry people that they have these big earth movers that just go scoop people up during demonstrations and it it throws them

[16:32] into the back of a dump truck and then they just disappear. You don't know what happened to them. So Charlton H um he's barely able to make a living at least you know he's got soil and green he can eat and the professor decides he's 70 years old he's sick they have these suicide centers that you can just go >> you lay in a bed and um they show you a film of just nature deer running around and butterflies and birds tweeting.

[17:03] You've never seen anything like this before. So, as they give you the lethal injection, that's what you get to see. And there's classical music playing, so it's all very nice. He runs to the Charlton Aston runs to the suicide center to stop his friend from committing suicide. And he has to break into the place. He's too late to save him, but he follows the trail that they've taken the body to. They take the body to a processing center where they're making Soilent green out of all these people

[17:35] that are scooping up at the demonstrations. And he's as they're arresting him and beating him, he shouts, "Soilent green is people." >> Oh my god. >> We used to do this thing at the CIA. We used to do this thing at the CIA just for fun. Like every every time you have an operational meeting, you have to write a very detailed like blowby-blow, minute-by-minute account of the meeting. And CIA cables by nature are written only in capital letters. It's like some thing from the 50s. They just never changed it. [snorts] So what people

[18:05] would do was they would make these random lowercase letters, >> but they did it so it would spell out soilent green as people in the cable. We would always get such a kick out of it because it was all it would always make its way through the system. Nobody would pay any attention until like the one guy is reading it and he's like, "Oh, they did it again." [laughter] That the scary part about that is >> I'm going to look forward. >> It reminds me of it. That kind of story

[18:39] >> doesn't seem far it seems farfetched for tomorrow, but it doesn't seem far-fetched for somewhere in the future. Well, this um Soilent Green, it's 1973. I said ' 72. It's 73. >> Lot of '7s was unbelievable. >> It is on Amazon Prime right now for 3.99. >> Okay, I'm definitely watching that. >> Don't miss it. It's one of the great one of the greatest science fiction movies. >> I can't believe I haven't seen that. >> I'm surprised. >> I've watched a lot. >> He did another one at the same time called The Omega Man

[19:09] >> where he was the last man on Earth. there was some kind of pandemic and a handful of people survived but as like monsters >> like uh Walking Dead kind of people >> like I am Legend almost. >> In fact, I am Legend was the reboot of uh the Omega Man. Yes. Yes. Exactly. >> Yeah. Awesome. Love Charl H. Met him once on the street in London. [laughter] >> Couldn't have been nicer.

[19:40] Is there [laughter] anyone you don't know or you haven't bumped into at some point? >> I was with my girlfriend. We were spending junior year abroad and uh and I took her to see a play called The Cane Mutiny Court Marshall and it starred Charlton H. And he was brilliant in this play. And she says, "Let's go around to the stage door and see if we can meet him." I said, "No, that's it's such a cliche. No, I don't want to bother the man. He's not going to want to be bothered after working for two hours on stage like that." She's like, "Please, I love Charlton." So we ran around back and it was I don't know half a dozen

[20:10] other people back there and he came out and could not have been any nicer, more cordial, just a a lovely guy. >> [ __ ] Moses right there. >> I know, right? That's Moses. And that voice like who in America doesn't know that voice? >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Pretty cool. >> Yeah. Again, can't believe I I have watched a [ __ ] ton of movies from the 70s. The 70s was an unbsole. >> Oh yes. My kids even got me a a coffee table book called

[20:41] >> called The Stewartist is Flying the Plane: Movies of the 1970s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's loved it. >> It's It's awesome stuff. Real quick, John, I just got to use the bathroom, of course. >> So, we'll be right back. >> All right, we're back. I haven't gotten your thoughts on your very good friend John Brennan now being in the crosshairs of >> He is, that's the way to say it. He's in the crosshairs of the Trump Justice Department. A couple things I've noticed about John Brennan over the last couple of weeks. So, he was challenged at

[21:13] George Mason University in Arlington, Virginia by a Republican congressional candidate who I had never heard of and who didn't come close to winning anything. But the guy legitimately challenged him over, you know, his role in the memo on a couple things. the the memo on the Hunter Biden laptop or the letter I guess it is and um and on the CIA's analysis that Russia was behind the Trump election

[21:46] in the video that was shared widely on Twitter. Brennan actually pokes the guy in the chest several times. Besides that being assault, that was the first time in the 35 years that I've known John Brennan that I ever saw him lose his composure >> ever. >> It's getting to him. >> It's getting to him. He went on MSNBC that night looking exhausted and old beyond his years.

[22:18] And he disingenuously said, "I don't know why they're doing this to me. I don't understand. I didn't do anything wrong. I mean, even by MSNBC standards, it was not believable or credible. And then just a few days later, somebody some reporter shouted a question at him. It wasn't a reporter. It was in the metro. It was a guy who may have been a reporter now in retrospect. Anyway, whoever it was, it was a guy in the metro and Brennan like

[22:51] went after him. went up to him with his with his finger and raised voice. A buddy of mine called who's an attorney and said, "What do you make of, you know, the John Brennan of the last couple of weeks?" And I said, "He's scared." >> Yeah, >> that's what this is. He's scared because they're going to find something to charge him with. And not only will they charge him, they have moved the case to the southern district of Florida. Now remember, you have to

[23:23] charge the case in the federal district where the crime was allegedly committed. >> But what they did, I'll give you an example. In the case of Jeffrey Sterling, the CIA whistleblower, >> um they said that he had leaked classified information to James Ryzen of the New York Times. Ryzen then wrote a book. A CIA secretary bought the book in Virginia, so charged him in Virginia. Well, Jeffrey lived in St. Louis. Ryzen worked in Bethesda,

[23:57] Maryland, and the New York Times is in New York. They charged in Virginia. So, they play these little games all the time, >> right? >> Well, guess what? The game can be flipped. And so the US attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, whom Trump just fired recently, said, "Oh, I I'm not seeing a crime. I'm not seeing a case. The the investigation's not going anywhere. We're going to drop it." Okay, you're fired and we're transferring the case to Florida because all you have to do is say, "Yeah, John Brennan coordinated

[24:29] that Hunter Biden laptop memo. I was in Miami when I read the memo on the MSNBC website. So, it's that easy. >> It's that easy. But they never think about it coming back and biting them in the ass. >> And that's that's the thing, John. Like, I think it's well documented long before I ever knew you. like looking at John Brennan's career and the kinds of things he did to say nothing of the stuff that you've [snorts] illuminated for many of us since then there there's no doubt in

[25:00] my mind that he's not a good guy and that he has done a lot of things that could absolutely be taken into court and have a case made against it and the >> anger at some of the things that he's done of course makes me want that to happen. Mhm. >> What I worry about is all the cases that I think I righteously criticized that they were using with lawfare to make against Trump and people around him for years there strictly because they didn't

[25:31] like him. >> I now have to be consistent in my criticism of the lawfare because it feels like we have now >> the pendulum is swinging. >> The pendulum is swung and we are setting dangerous precedents of political retribution. So much so that you have guys like Steve Bannon Yeah. >> coming out and saying to people, if we don't win in 2028, people in this room are going to prison. And this is the same guy who's trying to go on there and talk about doing a third term for Trump, which is like against the whole [ __ ]

[26:02] constitution. >> Can't do it. I want to I want to read to you just a couple of sentences from former attorney general of the United States and associate justice of the Supreme Court, Robert Jackson. >> He said something that was very famous. >> Um he was also one of the judges at the Nuremberg trials. This is like one of the most important judges we've ever had,

[26:33] >> ever. Um, actually, let me find it. But he said something in um in a dinner at a dinner event for attorneys. His [clears throat] speech was called the federal prosecutor. And I [clears throat] think I found it. He said a couple things in this speech. He said it is not the function of government to keep the citizen from falling to error.

[27:03] >> It is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling to error. >> This and to me this is the most important thing he said. With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation of some act on the part of almost anyone. >> Yes. In such a case, it is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and then looking for the man who has committed it. It's a question of picking the man and then searching the law books or putting investigators to

[27:34] work to pin some offense on him. >> Oh, that's the Stalin bar. Show me the man, I'll show you the crime. >> And there it is. >> Oh my god. >> And here we are 85 years later still having the same debates. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. Now, let me make that personal for a minute. >> You [ __ ] hate that guy. >> I do. >> And righteously so. I hate him for you. John Brennan. He ruined your life. He I believe committed crimes, by the way, to to ruin your life. If you look at the

[28:04] emails with him and Eric Holder and just some of the stuff he did, >> it's a guy who runs out and says, "Yeah, we shouldn't torture people." When he wrote the [ __ ] torture, >> he was the godfather of the torture program. Yeah. [sighs] [gasps] Is there a part of you that would just love vengeance there? >> Oh, yeah. I would love love to see John Brennan go to prison, even if it was just for a day or a week, just to be dragged down into the muck like he did

[28:35] to me and to Jeffrey Sterling and to Ed Snowden and so many of the rest of us. On the other hand, I believe in Robert Jackson and what he said >> and I think that's what makes America great. Yes, that's what makes us the greatest country in the world is we're governed by the rule of law. If he has legitimately committed crimes, and I believe he has, >> he should be prosecuted. If there are others who are under investigation

[29:07] who are subject to prosecutors scouring the law books looking for a crime. I I would prefer not to see something like that happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It just it feels very scaring me a little bit >> the the vitriol and anger and it's it's human. I I asked a friend of mine. I have a friend at the Justice Department who's not working on the Brennan case, but who, you know, has friends and colleagues who are. And I said I said, "Why hasn't Brennan been charged yet? I mean, they charged Comey with some silly

[29:38] crime that's probably going to get thrown out. Why haven't they charged Brennan?" And he said, "Um, cuz they want to get that one right." >> Mhm. [clears throat] Yeah. They have an interesting perspective on Brennan. You know, most federal crimes have a five-year statute of limitations. Most um what we've heard Brennan would be charged with has either a 5-year or a one-year

[30:10] statute of limitations. I they're talking about contempt of Congress. Big deal. The federal sentencing guideline calls for no prison time, >> right? So, who cares if he if he was in contempt of Congress? I don't care. Um, lying to Congress. He probably has crossed the statute of limitations. They probably can't charge him. But what their idea is is that the Hunter Biden laptop memo, the Russia NIE, the Russia

[30:41] analysis was all part of an ongoing conspiracy to deny American voters their dulyeleed president. So, the statute of limitations keeps restarting itself every day so long as this this uh conspiracy continues. And honestly, I think they've got him on that. I That's the thing. I think they might, too. And this is where this is where it gets weird for me

[31:14] >> because no man's above the law, right? And it should it should be. >> We sent a vice president of the United States to prison. >> Yeah, that was Spiro. >> Spiro Agno, right? They they got the Greek guy. >> Yeah, but he wasn't Orthodox, so it doesn't count. >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah. >> But like I look at that and I go, >> is the slippery slope of letting a man like John Brennan be above the law >> worse than the slippery slope, >> right, >> of the precedents that we are setting

[31:45] across the board right now. >> And it's almost like, and people at home don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear this either, especially when it comes to a guy like John Brennan. But it's almost like somebody here, we used this example for something else earlier, but someone here has to be the Martin Luther King and just be like, >> we we're bigger than this. >> We're not doing this because it's making, you know, we're othering each other in this country. I I >> see. And that's exactly why Joe Biden

[32:17] should have pardoned Donald Trump. So many people believed he that's what he was going to do. Just like Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for the for the betterment of the country. Yes. >> Bring the American people back together again. Joe Biden should have pardoned all of those Republicans. >> I agree. >> And he didn't. >> I agree. I agree with you really very much on this issue that at the end of the day. What's more important is the the strength of the country and the unity of

[32:47] the country. It was a mistake to charge Donald Trump with 34 felonies for not filling out a freaking form for the, you know, state business commission or whatever the heck it was. That was dumb. Uh, it was a mistake to charge him. I don't even remember what the crime was alleged in Georgia. What was that? Oh, he called the sec Georgia secretary of state and said, "Find the votes." Okay. He was excitable that day. It was the election. That that's that's not a

[33:19] crime. That's just a guy having a bad day. [laughter] >> Um, Comey, I understand they hate Comey. Comey is an idiot, frankly, for being as smart as he is. He's really stupid at the same time. >> Yeah. like to take a picture of the shells 8647. What the [ __ ] are you thinking, you [ __ ] >> Brennan, however, is different in my mind. I believe Brennan was trying to enact a coup. I really believe it.

[33:50] I think there's evidence that, you know, even if even if you wanted to dress it up and call it like a shadow coup or something like that, however you want to say it, >> when you look at all the things that were disproven that were happening on his watch. >> Yeah. >> One plus one plus one plus one plus one. It's >> seriously. And look at it this way, too. There were a lot of bad guys at the CIA at the time that I was there in those circles, right? I mean, we can say terrible things about George Tennant and John McLaclin and Mike Morurell and Jose

[34:21] Rodriguez and Rick Praau and a lot of people. We can say a lot. There were a lot of crimes that were committed in the name of national security. Brennan's different. Brennan plotted against an elected president of the United States and he tried to use this, you know, the intelligence community and this lawfare against him and we can't risk that happening again. That that is when you put it like that, it's it's about as sinister as it gets.

[34:52] >> Yeah. Now, now here's the thing, John. I think about this a lot. We've been the power in the world for a long time. We have always had people in different parts of power be it government, bureaucracy, corporate which you know one feeds the other. >> There's a lot of crossover >> elites etc. where there are some awful people and people who do corrupt things people who get away with it sometimes because the issue becomes bigger than the person and they're connected [clears throat] enough so we slight we swipe it under sweep it under the rug.

[35:24] But I get this strange feeling that there is this deliberate movement now to paint everything that America has ever done >> as evil. It's all bad. Every single [ __ ] >> I hear that a lot. So, I say this to a guy who was legitimately [ __ ] over by the United States government and the worst types of people in it, who knows where evil happens and knows that we're

[35:54] not perfect and knows we've done evil [ __ ] around the world for sure. You know, do you have a problem with with that narrative? Oh my god, yes. You know, I I I go to bed at night watching Tik Tok videos. I'll watch a hundred of them before I finally fall asleep. And you know, they lead me to mostly First Amendment auditors who I just love. I I just love them. Uh and and um conservative um YouTubers who will go

[36:25] out on the street and say, you know, what's the best country in the world? And you know, do you believe the United States is the best country in the world? And they say, oh, you know, I would like to live in Denmark or this is the best country on earth. Period. I've been to 72 countries. I'm going to add another five more by the end of next year. This is the best country on earth. Of course, we have problems because we're human. But but the founding fathers gave us a system

[36:57] that is perfect for resolving those problems, right? The three co-equal branches of government. It's a little a skew right now, but it's going to return to where uh where it should be. It always does. >> You think so? >> I do. It always has through history. >> Um and it it will again, >> but um >> what has to happen for it to return there? >> Congress needs to find where what happened to its ball sack?

[37:28] >> It vanished >> once upon a time. >> I remember Jimmy Carter complaining. I was a kid. I was in high school. Jimmy Carter complaining that uh he couldn't get anything done because Congress wouldn't do what he what he told him to do and the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and they were like, "We don't work for you. >> Co-equal branches of government." Well, we've forgotten that, right? >> And so the Democrats are in lock step with Joe Biden. The Republicans are in lock step with Donald Trump. That's not

[37:59] the way it's supposed to be. Yes, work together. But look look at the 80s under the Reagan uh presidency. Uh the Democrats controlled the House, the Republicans controlled the Senate for the first four years or six years of the either four or six, I can't remember anymore, of the uh Reagan presidency, but the speaker of the house was a Massachusetts liberal named Tip O'Neal. >> And what happened? The president would invite him over for breakfast and they would sit and hash things out because

[38:30] they were both gentlemen. And that's how you got business done in Washington. >> Let's make a deal. >> Exactly. Everything is open to negotiation. Everything. So, let's negotiate. >> And you think we can get back to that? >> I do. I think we can get back to that. >> Mhm. Besides, you know, the broad general point, which is appreciated if Congress has to find their balls again. >> Yeah. >> They're all bums. >> Yeah. So, how do you flush out the attitudes that have formed on both sides

[39:00] within Congress and and Senate at this point where they don't want to do that? >> I think that we need to elect more independent thinkers. Listen, I made fun, for example, I made awful fun of Marjorie Taylor Green when she was first elected. You know, the Jewish space lasers and cheating on her husband. And >> I find myself agreeing with Marjorie Taylor Green like 80% of the time now. >> Wow. >> It's nuts. I haven't changed. I see Marjorie Taylor Green as having matured

[39:31] in her role as a member of Congress. >> Yeah. Like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. This isn't how Congress is supposed to work. >> What do you like about what she says? Um, I see her as something of a of a very out there civil libertarian >> in the in the mold of uh of um Tom Massie, Thomas Massie, let's say. She's not as smart as Thomas Massie, of

[40:01] course, but they take a lot of similar positions like uh Rand Paul is another example. Bernie Sanders on the on the Democratic side is another one, but I think we need more people like that. There's a guy who's been running in the Democratic primary against Nancy Pelosi for years. I met him in like 2016. I don't remember his name. It's an Indian name and I I just don't recall what it is. The guy's an attorney. He's very smart, very bright guy. He's an activist.

[40:33] We need for him to run against people like Nancy Pelosi. I I think my lucky star is that Nancy Pelissi is not running for re-election. Of course, she's so young at 82, right? >> That's the guy. That's the guy. I met him at the uh San Francisco Film Festival when we we stopped and chatted. I had never heard of him before. >> How do you say that name? I just butchered that. >> Chakraarti. >> Chakraarti. I've got a friend um he's an originally Indian naturalized American,

[41:05] Bert Thacker. Shout out to Bert Thacker. >> Shout out Bert. >> Bert um [snorts] Bert's a two-time Jeopardy champion. Uh number one. Number two, he is a former Republican congressional candidate in Southern California, moved to Texas, got himself elected to the city council in the city he went to, and is already planning his congressional campaign. We need to have 435 people like Bert Thacker because then we would get stuff

[41:35] done in this country. Bert cares almost not at all about party affiliation. He happens to be a Republican, >> right? >> But he just wants to get stuff solved, >> get things done. I think a big difference today that's causing a huge problem which should be like the biggest benefit ever is the fact that all of us have a voice behind a keyboard >> online and we police each other for

[42:06] thought. Now where does that sound very familiar from? Online that then forces its way towards the ballot box and the people who get elected there who are from that same world and understand it or if they're not from that world understand that they have to live in it. So, for example, your Nancy Pelosi, you can't possibly make a deal with Donald Trump. That won't play well on TikTok. It won't No, you could. It won't play well on Instagram. It won't play well on Twitter. And you're going to be viewed as a traitor to your people for doing that. Whereas Nancy Pelosi could have

[42:36] tied one off, you know, [ __ ] 25 years ago if Donald Trump were president and, you know, come up with a deal at a [ __ ] K Street Steakhouse and [ __ ] could have actually happened, which is exactly how Washington used to work. Yes, you're exactly right. You knew that if you went to the Oval Room at 9:00 on on a Tuesday night, the entire Senate leadership was going to be there having stakes and trying to figure out what to do about the budget. >> Right. at the Trump hotel when it when

[43:07] there was a Trump hotel in Washington. I went with friends a couple of times, more than a couple of times, and we joked that like, my god, is there a single member of the Republican House leadership who's not at the bar right now? Like literally every single one of them, but that's how you get stuff done. >> Yes. When I was in college, um it was quite common for members of Congress to share group houses up on Capitol Hill. You'd pack six, seven,

[43:38] eight guys in a in a house because it's expensive in Washington. You have to maintain a house in your district, right? And your family's probably in the district. You still have to have somewhere to live in Washington. So, and they they don't really make any money. Well, they do now. >> Great stock pickers. >> 220. It's like a miracle. Like a miracle. >> They're incredible. the crystal ball. So, um, so it wasn't unusual to have, you know, three Dems and three Republicans in a house or four and four. They'd play poker on Fridays, they'd go to church

[44:09] together on Sundays, and then, you know, they would argue in committee, but they're all friends and they knew that at the end of the day, they could negotiate a deal. >> And that's just not the case anymore. >> Yeah. That's why that's where I'm having trouble seeing how that becomes the case again. >> Yeah. because of how people have just been so, you know, and I in this kind of job, I see it all the time. You know, how much people just jump to conclusions on the minute they hear an opinion they don't agree with, they're gone. >> Yeah. >> They're really not. But they say that.

[44:40] >> Oh, I get that all the time. Listen, I'm I'm going to say something that's going to cause me trouble. But I'm going to say it anyway. [sighs] >> I gave an interview to an Indian news outlet two weeks ago, and I didn't say anything that I haven't said a thousand times. for whatever reason and this is why as a matter of policy listen I'm serious no more interviews to any Indian or Pakistani news outlets ever again okay John's policy done

[45:11] >> because they just make [ __ ] up >> and put it in a banner headline with two exclamation points and say that the CIA this CIA officer finally reveals the truth behind you know like no I told you my information's 25 years old. Okay. So I said one thing. I said in a conventional conflict India would beat Pakistan because it has five times the people. [snorts] Yeah.

[45:41] The death threats. I've lost count [laughter] of how many death threats I received. And then the best of all like my my lawyer is like got to keep a low profile. Just be aware [laughter] aware of your surroundings. >> I know, right? >> John's like, "Fuck you." [laughter] >> So, I get a letter from the president of Imran Khan's political party, right? Whatever it's called, the Pakistan whatever party. >> You got [clears throat] a letter, >> a letter in the mail. you and he says

[46:13] that they condemn in uh in the strongest possible terms what I said to the Indians and they demand an immediate apology to his excellency the former prime minister to the members of the party and to the people of Pakistan >> for giving an opinion. >> Yeah. So my lawyer is like just throw it away just throw [laughter] it away. So I didn't throw it away. I sent him an email and I said, >> "Oh my god, in regards to your demand

[46:43] for an apology, I wiped my ass with your demands for an apology." [laughter] And I hit send and that's how I left it and I haven't heard back from them. So my my my lawyer is like, "Well, that speaking offer at the uh Pakistani military academy, yeah, you're not going to be doing that." And I said, "No, no, I'll never go back ever again." But they don't they don't treat me with with respect anyway. >> You could have just said, "Explain Bin

[47:13] Laden." >> Yeah. >> Exactly. >> I mean, yeah. Like it would appear mathematically India would >> Yeah. >> would body bag Pakistan. No, you know, no Pakistan. No disrespect. It's just, you know, >> and you know why they hate each other so much? Because they're exactly alike. That's why. It used to be one country, >> right? India, Pakistan and Bangladesh was one country called called the Indian subcontinent, right? And then in 1947,

[47:44] India and Pakistan had a brutal bloody war and they split off. >> So all the Muslims went west to Pakistan and all the Hindus went east to uh to India. But now there are more Muslims than there are you know pretty much anybody else in they have a higher birth rate in India. But anyway, and then by 1971, I think it was, Bangladesh is like, "Screw this. They're part of Pakistan." They were called East Pakistan. And they're like, "Pakistan's all the way over there. We disagree with

[48:16] everything. So, we're going to be independent, too." And they created Bangladesh. >> Okay. Well, India has five times more people than Pakistan does. And the Bangladeshies like the Indians, and the Afghans like the Indians and hate the Pakistanis. So if you're Pakistan and you're outmanned and surrounded by your enemies, you going to win that fight? >> Yeah. They don't seem to have like a lot of friends. >> No. >> Right. >> No. Cuz they write threatening letters and expect immediate action.

[48:46] >> I love [laughter] that they wanted a retraction. >> Yeah. A retraction. >> Last time I was in your country, I land I ran the greatest targeting mission in modern history. Don't [ __ ] with me. >> That's right. And he wants a he he neglected to say in the letter that his prime minister is in prison right now. >> Oh, he's in prison. Why is he in prison? >> Oh, for all kinds of reasons. Treason and >> he's still prime minister. >> No, no, they deposed him. >> So, he's not running it from the prison cell. >> No. Well, he's trying he's running the party from his prison cell. Got it. They got a new prime minister. >> Ah, it's so awkward. >> Yeah. And he wants an apology from me.

[49:18] Now I think you should apologize to all of the people of Pakistan for being a you know corrupt >> typical corrupt leader in Pakistan. They're all corrupt. Listen, one time I was with uh with a colleague, a more senior colleague. We went to see Benazir Bhau. We went to see Benazir Bhau. She was in exile in Dubai [snorts] and um her husband was this guy Zardari, I think his first name is Hussein, something like that. And uh

[49:49] so we're at the uh we're at her beachfront mansion, her $10 million beachfront mansion in Dubai. This is a woman who was making, you know, 60 grand a year as prime minister. >> Hey, listen. Good investor, >> right? So we hear a car pulling up outside and she said something off-handedly that has just been ingrained in my mind ever since. She says, "So [snorts] help me God. If he's pulling up in another Bentley, I'm going to lose my mind." [laughter]

[50:20] And my boss and I kind of look at each other like, "Corrupt a little bit?" >> Yeah. >> You make 60 grand a year. How many Bentleys do you have with your $10 million beachfront house in Dubai? And then she went back, became prime minister again, got shot in the head. Now he's the president of Pakistan. her husband, her corrupt husband. >> Funny how the world works. >> Yeah. >> You know, that is the thing. The patterns are the same everywhere in

[50:50] different different societies. Human nature. >> It's human nature. You get people that get into powerful positions that have connections to be able to do things that the average person can't. >> Whether it's legal or not, they do it. >> It's you're 100% it's it is human nature. And like now in the internet era, we can just see it more right in front. >> I think you're exactly right about that. Yeah, the the information is much more re readily available for us. It's just there almost instantaneously.

[51:21] How much in your career at CIA did you either see directly or get an inkling or a vibe of say elite forces that were not a part of CIA playing roles or having say or having some sort of influence over decisions that the agency was making. >> I didn't. >> Never. >> No. It was always the other way around. After 911, we were short on um special

[51:53] forces guys. You know, we had this thing called the special activities division and then within the counterterrorism center, there was the special activities group. Um but we needed operators like not the ones like John that were going to, you know, whine and dine the guy and recruit him. Exactly. And so we just borrowed people from the special forces. So all of a sudden, I mean, like in in the matter of a week or two after 911, >> we've got SEALs, we have Delta, we have

[52:25] Rangers, we have all these people, >> and they're all they're not what you might imagine. They're not they're not these buff, you know, hemen that stepped out of a magazine. They had five days beard, little bit of a gut. they could do some heavy drinking and then get up and run five miles, which I never understood. Um, but they they [clears throat] knew exactly what the mission was and by God, they were happy to get on a plane, jump out the back of it, and then do the mission and then figure out how to rescue them later.

[52:57] >> I've had a couple of those guys sitting here. >> Yeah, they're they're very very tough guys talking about. Yeah, >> they're built a little different. >> Yeah, they are. I've never understood how I've never understood how guys like that can negotiate the psychological weight of what comes with their jobs. It is a the fact that you haven't figured that out is not reassuring because I sit here and wonder

[53:28] the same thing sometimes. There is the only thing I can come up with is there's just a different gene. I think that's it. I've got two friends. One was a medic um on Seal Team 2. He's an older guy. He's about eight years older than I am. So, this is when the SEAL teams were first created out of what used to be called the underwater demolition teams. And I've got a buddy who's currently a SEAL. I won't say which team. He's the son-in-law of a very close friend of mine.

[54:01] He does struggle with these issues. My my older friend from Seal Team 2 >> sleeps like a baby every night. No problem. >> I think it's person to person. >> I think it is >> right. >> Yeah. >> But also they pick certain guys for certain teams or certain missions. >> That's right. >> Who maybe they've tested under scrutiny and stress. Not to say, by the way, that sometimes once the guys are done their career and come home, they don't bring it home with them. >> And they frequently do. >> Oh, yeah. They frequently do and it's

[54:32] it's a sad thing to see. >> Sad, but when when they're in there, there's something about like reach go >> mission >> and that's it. >> All about the mission. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> You know, glad they're on my side, though. >> Yeah, me too. >> Right. >> Yep. Got that right. >> So, they were just And I mean, I've talked with guys about this before. It was obviously like a [ __ ] show right after 9/11. All hands on deck. But >> basically a lot the way you're explaining it is a lot of these guys minus just some of the basic like on the ground forces we know from the

[55:02] paramilitary operation that happened right away in Afghanistan but a lot of these guys were literally like hey you're in you're right in you're in >> they just showed up one day I'm telling you at >> at at the counterterrorism center >> we we more than doubled in size within two three days. >> Wow. And then even after that all these all these special forces guys just arrived like okay where do we go and then they started doing their thing. >> And when how soon was it after the

[55:34] towers came down that you were first approached about with the enhanced interrogation? >> Oh it was quite some time. Towers came down in September 11th. We started bombing Afghanistan in early October. Um, it was in late October that Mitchell and Jessen were introduced to George Tennant at a at a cocktail party. They pitched the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. I think we signed the contract in January. Uh, and then we were just waiting to see who's the first guy we're going to

[56:05] catch. We caught up with a beta in March. >> Yeah, I was going to say we're going to Pakistan >> and then I was approached the first week of May >> of 2002. >> Okay. And then you were still in there for a few years afterwards. I mean, obviously that is the core part of your story. We've told that on episode 249 and 250 a bunch before. We don't have to go through all that. >> Sure. >> But >> that was a disturbing thing that you saw at CIA. >> Yeah. Are there other things now years later

[56:35] that you're willing to talk about that you came across that maybe didn't involve you directly like that where people were like, "Hey, we want to actually bring you in on this that you just found viciously disturbing that they were doing?" >> No. Um I all throughout my CIA career I I worked with people who were doing their jobs to the highest ethical standard. It was it was because it post 911. >> Mhm. >> And everybody just kind of went nuts

[57:05] because this was the greatest intelligence failure in the CIA's history and because it was specific to the counterterrorism center. I think that's why there was so much that was sort of revealed to me. But otherwise, no. In fact, one time one time I was the notetaker. I was I was living in Bahrain at the time and um and uh Ambassador David Ransom just an absolutely lovely guy, one of the just

[57:36] finest human beings I've ever worked for. He was a terrific ambassador and just a just a really great guy. Um he would frequently ask me to be the notetaker in his meetings with the uh Minister of Foreign Affairs. And the minister liked me and I liked him. His English was better than mine, crazy as that might sound. >> But um if there was something sensitive that the ambassador needed to raise, he would always mention it to me in the car on the way to the foreign ministry like, "Don't let me forget to say X." And I'd

[58:07] jot down a note. So we went to see the foreign minister one time and um and he did forget to say X. And so at the end of the meeting, these meetings would go two hours. He turned to me and he said, "Is there anything else? Is there anything that I'm forgetting?" And I said, "Yes, there's the issue with Ambassador soandso." And he said, "Oh, that's right." and he said uh he said to the foreign minister, "One of my predecessors here in Bahrain,

[58:39] it's come to my attention uh is now working for the Bob Dole campaign and we understand that he may come out here and ask you for money. It is illegal for a foreign national to contribute money to an American political campaign." So, I just wanted to give you a heads up. H. And the minister says, "Oh, he's already been here. We gave him $50,000. We didn't realize it was illegal, but he went to see the Amir." And the Amir gave him

[59:11] $50,000. [snorts] So, we get back in the car and the ambassador says, "Listen, that last part, don't put that in the cable." He said, "That's a hornet's nest that I don't think either one of us want to be involved involved in." So, I didn't put it in the cable. You break the cable out by issue like the ambassador's meeting with the foreign minister Middle East peace, the ambassador's meeting with foreign minister uh the military agreement with the United States, ambassadors meeting with the foreign

[59:42] minister Iran and the threat from you know whatever. He told me not to write that. This was like a month or two or three before I I left to go back to headquarters. And I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it and I thought, you know, for my own selfish reasons, what happens if I go for my next polygraph and they ask me if I'm aware of a crime that I didn't report. >> Then then it's me, then I get fired. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed,

[1:00:13] please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
