Title: TruthOverComfort
Show: TruthOverComfort
Date: 2025-03-26
URL: https://youtu.be/E6hUaGpckB0
Duration: 48:00

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[00:00] Welcome to the Truth Over Comfort Show. Today's returning guest is John Kiryaku, who was in the CIA for many years and eventually went on to blow the whistle on the CI CIA torture program. I previously had him on the show to discuss that. Um, the types of techniques the CIA would use, the black sites and everything in between. Um, I thought this time we could just have more of a general chat, as I was saying before, you know, these subjects you've spoken about over and over and over. And so I thought it just be a good idea to

[00:30] to speak about stuff going on in the world, but other general topics too, just to see your personal insight being within the CIA and the government for that many years and just yourself as well. Um, but it's great to have you on again, John. How you doing? Thanks for uh thanks for the invitation, Louie. My pleasure. Yeah. No, I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man going around doing the podcast as hopefully everyone's been watching. recommend uh all of the recent um long form podcast. You've done a lot of good uh information in there. So, just um to to jump into

[01:03] one subject actually just touching on within your career in the CIA uh and working in counter terrorism. Um, you know, the war on terror is still fluctuating on and off and there's still a lot of fear um about the risks of terrorism and it going on in the Middle East and just generally in America and and the UK. Um, people have a lot of different ideas about the causes of terrorism. You know, the classic kind of cliche joke line of George Bush about

[01:34] they hate us for our freedoms, which I don't know how many people really believe that. Um, and then you have people who believe, you know, it's an issue not just with radical Islam, but just Muslims in general, they're a violent um, religion. And then there's a lot of other ideas and stuff that gets left out, but within the CIA and with the intel reports you get, what are the causes of terrorism? Um, do they expel a different view when they speak to the public to the information you get for

[02:05] the reasons for certain attacks? What what is some of the causes of terrorism in your professional view? I I think that I've nailed this down, at least in my own mind. Um um number one, lack of access to education. Number two is lack of economic development. And I'll tell you, I got that straight from the horse's mouth when I was the

[02:35] the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan. Um, we captured so many al-Qaeda fighters. I say fighters like low-level grunts, 18, 19, 20 years old, and they all told exactly the same story. They said that they were some from some isolated village in their home country. They had um uh they didn't know how to read and write. They had no uh job skills and they wanted to get married.

[03:08] But what man would want his daughter to marry a young man who can't read and can't write and doesn't have any skills and has no prospects for employment? So the local imam went up to them and said, "You don't want to stay in this this isolated village. you should go to Afghanistan and make jihad against the Americans. And if you do that, we'll pay you $300 a month. And if you're martyed, we'll give your parents a $500 martyrdom bonus. Well, they had nothing else to

[03:39] lose. They couldn't find the United States on a map. They didn't know anything about American foreign policy. They were just poor and and and uneducated and unskilled. So, for the most part, I'm going to say, you know, 80% would never have turned to terrorism. Probably didn't even realize they were involved in terrorism. Um, they wouldn't have turned to terrorism had they had educations and job opportunities. The for the other

[04:10] 20%, I really believe that their decision to turn to terrorism was a response to US foreign policy. You know, several several al-Qaeda fighters, mid-level al-Qaeda fighters, said that they had no problem with the United States until they saw video of Israeli soldiers with their boots on the necks of Palestinian women and they blamed the United States for its blind support of Israel. So, it was our foreign policy. I really believe

[04:42] that if we had a more balanced foreign policy and we really did make use of foreign aid to encourage economic development with no strings attached, we wouldn't have these problems that we have. Yeah. Know, I think, you know, I didn't mention it before, but foreign policy is definitely, you know, got to be a motivating factor. you hear it time and time again after the attack a little bit later normally, you know, there it was a response to the Iraq war, Afghanistan or or Israel. Um, so just, you know, put

[05:15] out you don't think there's anything to do with particularly Muslims in their religion. It's more, you know, those seem to be the groups of people constantly attacked in the Middle East. It's not that Muslims are a violent religion. It happens that these people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Oh, no, no. I've I've studied Islam. I have a degree in in uh Middle Eastern studies with a focus on Islamic theology. I studied under some of the most important uh Muslim scholars in the West and uh and

[05:45] served most of my adult life in the Middle East. Uh I've read the Quran. This is not a religion of of hate or a religion of violence any more than Christianity is a religion of hate or a religion of violence. Of course, there are going to be extremists on all sides. There are. We see them every day in the news. But, uh, no. In terms of of Islam being a violent religion, no, I've never believed that. Yeah. I mean, you've got what, over two

[06:16] billion Muslims around the world, mostly peaceful. You take that number, there's not too many attacks. I mean, you have, say, you know, a Christian American who goes to the war in the Middle East in Iraq. No one's necessarily saying it because he's a Christian. You know, it's just the rules aren't really played for both sides, right? You know, people like, oh, why don't Jews or Hindus, why are they not, you know, doing terrorist attacks? It's normally because we're not attacking those people, you know, I mean, why would why would they attack us? There's no reason to. So within the

[06:48] CIA in your position knowing some of the motivation is foreign policy specifically you know US NATO Israeli foreign policy what what do the kind of the people the the higherups in in the chain at the CIA and government think about that? Do they know that and they're like it's just blowback like that's just the price to pay because when it gets put out to the public it's it's you always push it away from foreign policy. It's never about that. It's never about the war in Libya. This is the problem with the CIA being

[07:21] um not being a policy um agency. The the CIA is tasked with um well the the the job of a CIA officer is very simple. It is to recruit spies to steal secrets and then to analyze those secrets to provide the policy makers with the best information to make policy. Foreign policy is made at the White House essentially. It's carried out by the State Department, but it's made at the White House. And the White House is always a political entity. As a

[07:53] political entity, it is it is subject to outside pressure. Outside pressure by the best funded organizations. And arguably the best funded organization is going to be Apac, the Israel lobby, and supporters of Apac and and supporters of of uh think tanks that are supportive of Israel. And so the Israelis have a a greatly outsized influence on American foreign

[08:23] policy. They spend their money very smartly. they spend it uh or Apac spends it supporting pro-Israel congressional candidates to the point where not only will you be accused of being anti-semitic if you're not Zionist, you're now accused of being anti-Semitic if you're not a supporter of Benjamin Netanyahu as a person. That is so outrageous that I can't even believe

[08:54] we've gotten to this point. But this is indeed the point we've gotten to. It's funny too because when you look back in modern American history, um that wasn't the case until 1969. In 1969, Richard Nixon made a major policy decision and that was to protect Israel no matter what. No questions asked. And that's when Apac Apac became a a political force to be

[09:25] reckoned with in the United States. It wasn't always this way. It's been this way since 1969. Yeah. know just to for people I'd recommend watching some of the recent podcasts you did um as I know you go into about um kind of the CIA's view about Israel and you tell that story about um kind of diplomats who went there and Israel kind of messed with them and their house and breakin to know like we you know we're messing with you we can end up chopping off was it the

[09:56] dog's tail so the dog's tail yeah I won't make you go into that because I know you told it many times I recommend people go into that I'll put it up on the on the screen how this is behind the scenes with, you know, the f the frenemies kind of thing that's going on. You already started to say there were red lights. You know, you're told that day one. It's like you see China, you see Russia, you see Israel as like spy threats or whatever. That's right. So people at CIA, I would imagine have a lovehate relationship here. Is that fair to say? Uh, it's mostly just a hate relationship.

[10:30] I never met anybody at the CIA who was pro-Israel. Never. Not one. Not a single person. No. No. Not a single person. And it's because they make it so hard to like them. You know, if we're supposed to be their best friends, we have this special relationship. Well, I I'll tell you the same the same story I told Danny Jones. I worked with this guy for years and he married a woman in the office. Really terrific people. Both of them. Terrific people. And when I was going out to

[11:02] Bahrain uh on my rotation to the state department, the wife was going out to Jerusalem because she got the same rotation to the state department. So because she had worked with the Israelis for many years, uh the station decided to declare the two of them to the Israelis. So they they land and they go straight to Mossad and the chief said, "These are my officers. She's on rotation to the State Department and he's just going to study Arabic at the University of Tel Aviv." Yeah. Right. No harm. Uhhuh. So, they're there for a

[11:34] little while. They go to a party at the ambassador's residence and they come home and all of their living room furniture had been rearranged. And they're like, you know, not cool. But this is what the Israelis do. They break in the house. They rearrange all your furniture just to say, "Ha, [ __ ] you. We can do anything we want." So, they're there working. Months pass. They're having a good time. They go to uh the ambassador's Christmas party. Now they're living in Jerusalem. The embassy at the time was in Tel Aviv and so it's

[12:06] about a 30 or 40 minute drive to get from one city to the other. They come home at the end of the party and people had taken shits in all of their toilets in their house. Every toilet had had [ __ ] in it. You know, not cool. They're not doing anything. They're not working against the Israelis. They're just doing normal stuff. He's studying Arabic. she's just in the the embassy's uh you know economic section or whatever. And um and then when their tour was over,

[12:36] two-year tour, the ambassador threw a going away party for them, which is a normal thing. And they get back to the house, and the dog is under the dining room table whimpering because somebody had cut the dog's tail off and they wrapped it with gauze and with medical tape. Now, why why would you do something like that? What do you hope to gain except to make us hate you? You know, if you're trying to win friends and influence people, that's really not the way you you're going to want to go.

[13:06] So, now here are these people who, if anything, were, you know, moderately supportive of the Israelis who came home only with bitterness and hatred toward the Israelis for this harassment that lasted for two years. Why? Why would you do that? What do you hope to accomplish? Do you ever think that some of that is people who want you to think it's them? I'm steel manning it, but in a place like Israel though, there's nobody else sophisticated enough to do something like that. Um, so just going back to

[13:37] what you said there about Israel. Um, people probably don't really associate it with causing terror. Can you just explain what you mean by the blowback of our support for Israel? Uh do you have any examples within your time or or beyond because you know the support was always strong there but now you know we have the internet and the current war. Sure. You know we the United States purports to be uh not just a country that supports human rights but the

[14:08] greatest supporter of human rights in the world. That's just simply not true. Uh we completely turn a blind eye to human rights in Israel. Um, I was speaking just recently in the last couple of weeks with a with a an Israeli human rights attorney, an Israeli human rights attorney who told me that since uh the conflict in Gaza began, um, thousands and thousands of Palestinians have been scooped up and placed in Israeli prisons without being charged

[14:38] with a crime. Okay, that's a human rights violation. But even worse, they're not permitted to speak. And I mean like at all for any reason. They're not permitted to speak. And over the last six months or so, they're not permitted to walk inside prisons. They have to go from point A to point B on their hands and knees. Now we're seeing prisoners, Palestinian prisoners, being released from Israeli prisons, and they look like death camp survivors, gaunt, underfed,

[15:11] malnourished. This this is it's a clear human rights violation and Israel is a first world country. It's not like they don't have enough food to go around. This was a policy decision to not provide prisoners with food. So you're This is a thing that I hate about the American media too is they always talk about um Israeli hostages and Palestinian detaininees. What's the difference between the two? the the Palestinians

[15:43] are as much hostages as the Israelis being held by Hamas are hostages. And believe me, I'm anti-Hamas. I believe Hamas is a terrorist organization. But I like to think that I understand why it has come to the four as a group. You can only suppress or oppress a people for so long before they're finally going to react. And we saw the reaction. Why is it do you think Israel treats the

[16:16] the prisoners so badly and you know because people would argue you know these people are terrorists or you know similar to the US where they think someone's a terrorist or they think they're going to stop terrorist acts and these people kind of get caught up in it or is it something different to the US because there is the element of kind of the dehumanization of of Palestinians to Israelis where Muslims were dehumanized in the war on terror but not it's not the same because they're neighbors or within each other. So why do you think they do treat them so poorly? I think that it's because official Israeli

[16:47] policy is to is to encourage all Palestinians to leave Palestine. You know, Donald Trump was not joking when he said he wanted to develop Gaza into beachfront, you know, resort real estate that would be better than Monte Carlo. He said, "You can only do that if there are no Palestinians living there." And I really believe that that's the goal. You know, we're seeing we're seeing unprecedented Israeli settlements in uh in the West Bank right now. And it's

[17:19] because the world's attention is diverted. It's on it's on Gaza. Well, people are dying every day in the West Bank, and more and more Palestinian land is being stolen in the West Bank. And it's because official Israeli policy is to throw everybody out. The ones that you kill, you kill. The ones that you don't kill, get them to leave. And so we know, for example, that the United States, the Trump administration has spoken to the governments of Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Albania, Indonesia

[17:52] about just taking all Palestinians and and resettling them in their countries. Of course, that's that's it actually meets the legal definition of of a genocide. Uh but nobody seems to really care very much about that. And here in the United States, in in um well, not just in the United States, also in Canada, in synagogues around both countries, they're having what they call um real estate seminars following Shabbat

[18:23] services. They're not real estate seminars. their um their seminars on how to get your name on a on a list to take possession of stolen Palestinian land if you want to be a settler in the West Bank or Gaza. That's that's a war crime. You can't do that. But the Israelis are doing it and the American and Canadian governments are allowing them to do it. Yeah, I think they also speaking to Somalia and Sudan as well or Somalia land as well. Um, and yeah, I mean

[18:56] there's that clip that went around a while back um of that American, he's speaking American and he's in the West Bank and he goes to that house and he's like, you know, give me a house. They're like, no, no, like we're not giving. He's like, you know, if I don't take it, someone else will. It's not my fault. Just, you know, it's not my fault I didn't do it. And they're like, no, but you're trying to sell my house. He's like, well, if I don't, someone else someone else will. You know, if me being in England, if I was Jewish, I'm not. I could literally just fly, you know, go over to Israel, go to the West Bank and steal someone's house and probably be supported by the army and and no

[19:28] consequence. It's crazy. And and if they put up a a fight, um then they're shot or their their olive trees are bulldozed, their homes are bulldozed, and they end up living in tents or in caves, and the Israelis hope that eventually they'll just get tired and leave. Yeah. And it's crazy like you was speaking before about anti-semitism. If you say, you know, I don't think Israelis should steal Palestinian hand houses in the West Bank, no one would

[19:58] go, oh, that's anti anti-semitic. But, you know, now it is. And and even going back to the anti-semitism there. Even if you're I've heard, you know, like Jewish people at crowds at rallies where they're, you know, Jews for Palestine. Um, they're called like self-hating Jews. Um, they're called traitors. people like threatening them and screaming at them. And there's articles of people writing this like this self-paying Jew thing and just, you know, like you don't have to be for Israel if you're a Jew and because you and you don't have to be um Jewish to be

[20:31] a Zionist. As we can see, many people support the the existence of Israel. But um yeah, it's a a bizarre um situation. just going just over uh the border to Syria within the discussion of terrorism. What do you make of HCS? Because, you know, before I'd have people on and speak about Syria and you talk about, you know, did we purposely, you know, um was we directly arming al-Qaeda and ISIS or was it indirectly or did arms fall into them or was it

[21:03] through now with HTS it's it's like I don't know now you know the UK have visited there the EU Germany you know they just he just they went to the world economic forum um so it went from like was it direct to now like was it um David Miller? He's a he was a university professor who was fired um for being anti-Zionist. Um and he put out a tweet and he was like, "I wonder how long until um Syria HTS regime is at the World Economic Forum." It was like a

[21:35] month. Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, this is a this is a an American foreign policy with which I have a very serious problem. Uh, al-Qaeda attacked the United States on September 11th, 2001 and killed 3,000 people in one morning. 3,000 people. I was one of many, many people who dedicated my life to working against al-Qaeda to to locating al-Qaeda leaders

[22:07] and killing them. ISIS was formed by a faction of al-Qaeda that believed that al-Qaeda wasn't radical enough and and it slaughtered civilians in Iraq and Syria and elsewhere. And that's who the US decided to throw its lot in with. So they changed their names, al-Qaeda, the Nusra front, whatever it is, they're terrorists who

[22:39] meant us harm. But we convinced ourselves that Bashar al-Assad was so evil that he had to be overthrown at all costs. My po my position all along was that whether you like Bashar al-Assad or not, he was the only thing standing between the Christian community in Syria and utter annihilation. And so that's now what we're seeing. We've gotten into bed with

[23:09] al-Qaeda, regardless of what name they happen to be using today. We worked with Israel and Turkey to overthrow the Assad government. And now we've installed the next generation Osama bin Laden uh as the leader of this country. So what do we do? How do how do we answer, you know, the Antiochian Orthodox of America when we say, "Sorry, uh we installed a country or we

[23:41] installed a government in in the country and it's going to slaughter your relatives. It's going to wipe out the Christian community. It's going to wipe out the Alawites. We don't really seem to care. The Israelis like it, which I don't understand at all because I always believe that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. The Israelis jumped in with both feet to overthrow Assad and have taken what can only be described now as a buffer zone. It's an illegal buffer zone. The Syrians

[24:12] don't seem to mind. Uh, and the the Israelis love the fact that the Syrians are now at war with Lebanon and Hezbollah rather than being the conduit between Iran and Lebanon and Hezbollah. So, I I just I'm not seeing any good news at all coming out of Syria. Nothing. Yeah. As we just saw, we just saw um the HTS um men on the ground go after the Alawites and kill them. And then a week

[24:44] a week later, HCS's foreign minister, Syria's foreign minister, uh is um at an EU conference and they're putting up money for them and it's like that's that's interesting. Um I actually uh spoke to Carl Anslon about this when everything was going on with HCS and maybe you'll be to put the the question to. How do you think Golani went from this person who went to fight in Iraq and he was within ISIS rank and then gets sent to Syria and you know the goal

[25:15] is you know the long-term goal was the kind of the to destroy the you know American Empire and kill Americans to now being you know at the World Economic Forum and taking money from the West and turning a blind eye to Syria to Israel letting them take land you know channel 4 asked um the Syrian one the Syrian spokesman, you know, uh, Israel did 500 strikes today. You know, is that is that an issue? And he's like, we, you know, basically didn't want to speak. Can I get your reaction to these Israeli air

[25:46] strikes? We've had over 300 now. Our priority is to restore security and services, to revive civilian life in institutions, and care for newly liberated cities. There are many urgent parts of day-to-day life to restore. bakeries, electricity, water, communications. So, our priority is to provide those services to the people. I understand it's not your priority, but are you honestly telling me that you have nothing to say about Israel

[26:17] striking 300 sites in this country? Have no doubt. We want everyone to respect the sovereignty of the new Syria. This point is very important to us. So, do you think there's a chance that Jolani or could be an asset now, like a western asset? Like, how how did he go from that to this? Or is it he just wants power and that's the way to get power? I I think he's a very savvy businessman and I think that he came to

[26:47] the conclusion early on that it's better to be friendly with the West than to be the enemy of the West. And so the very first thing he did was to invite the American assistant secretary of state Barbara Leaf and uh the uh the assistant secretary of state for hostage affairs to go to Syria. And this is like days after he took power. um in exchange for recognition, the $10 million bounty that

[27:19] the US had on him was lifted and now we're all friends. And so you have the US carrying his water in places like the the World Economic Forum or the European Union, you know, where the US whispers to the EU leadership, Galani is okay. You can deal with him. And so now we don't have to worry about weapons making their way from Iran through Syria. It's just not a problem anymore.

[27:51] And we don't have to worry about a Russian presence in Syria anymore. You know, when the when the Russians when the Russians have to issue a public statement saying, "We would really appreciate it if you would respect our military bases, you know, they've lost." And that's exactly what happened. Do you think that the Trump administration will change course at because obviously this happened under the Biden administration. They facilitate facilitated HS's rise as in um on on the march when they overthrew

[28:23] the government. They provided intelligence. They got the other rebel groups to um uh to to work with them and they coordinated for them. Do you think Trump will change at all? I mean, JD Vance put out a few statements where he was like, you know, how we let these terrorists take over and going to kill Christians and and such, but they're so close to Israel. I mean, see, and that's the key right there. Even if Donald Trump cared about Syria, and I think he doesn't, I would expect, fully expect

[28:55] the Israelis to pick up the phone and say, "Hey, listen. This Syria thing, back off. We're okay with it." And I think that's exactly what's happened. Yeah. I mean, he hasn't really commented on it at all really. And it's already done. I mean, and it's only going to uh help with, you know, with the world moving more towards China and Russia. This is a pretty massive win, especially as you said with the uh you know, Iran Iranian weapons through Syria into Lebanon Hezbollah. Um it's it's a huge

[29:27] win and very unexpected. Um so what what do you So we start well we started off kind of the conversation about the causes of terrorism and that terrorist group al-Qaeda you know has roots back to Mujadin against the Soviets in the 80s bin Laden being a financeier there and he was on I think the independent newspaper he's a freedom fighter we then go fight them we talk about all these different causes um you know does this just not shine a light on you know I don't know how people get so freaked out

[29:57] about you know the the reason for terrorism they're like it must be this and then HCS is right there and people just they don't get the story on it. You know what what does this mean for terrorism? You know, well, you know, in in one respect, it sort of proves that terrorism works, right? I mean, you can be a member of al-Qaeda and then further radicalize and be a member of ISIS and dedicate your life to killing Americans

[30:28] or Brits or other Westerners. and then take over a country and say, "Oh, all that stuff I said about terrorism, I was just being facitious. We should work together. Hey, can I have 10 billion dollars and some weapons?" And then that's where we find ourselves. You know, honestly though, Louie, to me, this goes to the this goes to the failure of American policy. Um, and this goes to the success of of Turkish foreign policy. The Turks and the Israelis could not possibly have

[31:00] played this any better than they did. And I don't know how it was that the US was either not paying attention or just didn't have a policy ready to go where the Turks moved in and were able to effect the overthrow of the Assad government over the course of two weeks with Israeli pressure in the south. And the Americans the Americans response was wait a minute what just happened?

[31:31] Have you have you not seen there was an article I think it was in in the Telegraph I was referring to earlier so that the US knew about the rebellion in in advance and I can't remember the exact name of the group but they said this is your moment it's either you know your dream or die basically and they got them to work with HTS and they had communication so obviously they was involved that was the Kurds the the US has has spawn sponsored over the last 10

[32:02] or 10 years or so an indep quote unquote independent um Syrian opposition group, but most of the money and the material went to the Kurds and they were working together, the Kurds and this independent group. And so when the Turks when the Americans either were told or realized that the Turks were moving forward and they were going to open the the roads to Damascus, the US jumped in and said, "Wait, we want a part of this, too." And I think that's what happened. that that piece in the independent I think was 100%

[32:35] correct. Or the Telegraph, not the Independent. It was in the Telegraph. Yeah, I have a subscription to the Telegraph. That's where I saw it. Yeah. Know, it was an interesting piece because it was a little bit after because everyone heard about Turkey greenlighting it. Um, and I mean this happened just like days after the ceasefire between Israel and Hezblah. Um, which is interesting timing obviously. But yeah, I just it's just crazy you have, you know, we we invade Afghanistan and and Iraq and the rest of

[33:06] because of 911 and we talk about a safe haven, right? The safe haven in Afghanistan, which is why we have to go after the Taliban. And then instead of just a pocket of a um a safe haven in a country, we're like, let's just give this group a whole country. like, hey, went from a safe even to, yeah, here's the government and yeah, come to come to the World Economic Forum and yeah, the British, the Germans, the French, we'll give you some money. And yeah, it's great. And it shows you how much we hate Iran and Russia that we would jump into bed with

[33:36] al-Qaeda and not just jump into bed with them, but open doors to the West. because you know if if they are attending the World Economic Forum and opening relations with Western European or European Union uh countries and eventually with the United States and you know by the end of the year we're going to have an open and operating embassy into Damascus again. Um, the idea is going to be to try to develop the the Syrian economy enough

[34:08] and westernize them enough so they're not a threat to Israel. They do what the Turks tell them to do and not be a problem for the United States. All the while keeping the Iranians and the Russians at bay. Yeah. I mean, the Russian side of it interesting. I mean, they've I mean, they say, "Can we keep our bases?" It looks like they think they maybe are. I'm not really sure. I haven't kept dates. It looks like they're keeping

[34:39] Latakia, but the other one's closed. Yeah. And it kind of I mean, there's a lot of speculation about deals and all these things. I don't know exactly what happened, but they seem to kind of just get on get on with it. And they even put out, you know, we we need to build relations with this group because it's it's happened. So, who who knows what really happened there, but um just just Sorry, was you going to say something? Yeah, I was going to say something. One of the things that kind of surprised me and disappointed me was you remember exactly one week before Assad was

[35:11] overthrown. It was a Saturday. He and his family went to Russia and the plane returned the next day, but only Assad was on it. His family remained in Russia. A week later, he went again to Russia and and never left. Well, in the week between the first trip and the second trip, that plane made three more trips to Russia, and it was just laden down with cash and artworks and everything Assad could pack onto the

[35:41] plane to take with him into exile. And you would think that in that week, the Russians would have done something to try to solidify their presence in the country, and they didn't do anything at all. Yeah, who knows? Maybe maybe some information will come out. I mean, I know the UAE would leaning on um Syria to not be as close with Iran and the US apparently involved in that. So, I mean, who knows what goes on behind the scenes because the UAE had normalized ties with

[36:14] Assad and they You took the words right out of my mouth. Yes. Yes. I was gonna say the exactly the same thing just now. Yes. Yeah. This was a this was kind of a well-coordinated uh event. The pressure got to be so bad that Assad just couldn't do anything to save himself. Yeah, it was because I thought, I wonder what Saudi Arabia and stuff think because they spent all this money trying to overthrow him, gave up, normalized ties, brought him back to the Arab League, and then he gets overthrown and then I'm like, I wonder like how they're

[36:45] going to play it. And then like within a month uh HTS is foreign ministers getting a nice warm welcome in Saudi Arabia in the kingdom. So there you have your answer. I mean whether they was like you know we're getting on board with this. I mean we we tried for years and someone else did the job for us and we're reap the fruits of it. That is it. I I I see it exactly the same way. And just going to I guess another general thing within the CIA and government, you know, we're constantly told about democracy and we care about

[37:17] democracy, which is why we care so much about Ukraine and all these other places. Um but you know, we see from World War II onwards constant coups, constant meddling in governments, friendly governments, elections, everything. Um I mean what was the view inside the CIA about this sort of thing? I mean, I guess also just on a personal level, you know, I mean, did you know this stuff had happened before with these coups? Did you put it into of the Cold War? Like, what was your kind of view then? Oh, sure. Well, what what you're led to believe when you're a young recruit

[37:49] um was, yeah, that stuff all happened, but it happened before 1975. 1975 was the Church Committee and the Pike Committee and the exposure of the family jewels. We don't do that anymore. Well, we do do it still, but only when we really really have to. Only when it's it's to protect Americans. Okay. Yeah, we do it all the time. So, it's it's on a much grander scale post 1975. it's, you know, invade

[38:22] Afghanistan, overthrow the Taliban, which was never a threat to the United States, by the way, uh, and install a democracy in a country that has no history of democracy and has no idea how to make one work. Um, invade Iraq and when somebody asks you why you invaded Iraq, just say something about weapons of mass destruction and terrorism and and they'll just forget about it after a while. uh we we we tend to still do it, but rather than

[38:54] just encouraging a military coup like we did in Greece, in Dominican Republic, in Guatemala and El Salvador, and you know, some in in Chile, and so many other places. Now, it's supporting the fullscale invasion and occupation of a country, which just simply doesn't work. And you know, another thing too, and I've been kind of consistent about this, is there's always blowback. Always. And it's like nobody thinks

[39:27] about the blowback and how damaging this is going to be. Yeah. I I've told the story many many times, but the day before we crossed the border and and invaded Iraq, uh I was a notetaker in a principal committee meeting that was chaired by the vice president. It was Dick Cheney at the time. And one of the senior directors from the National Security Council said, "When we cross that border tomorrow, they're going to throw flowers at us." And I said to

[39:58] George after I said to George Tennant, the CIA director afterwards, do they do these people know nothing about the Middle East? Do they know nothing about history? And he said, "No, they don't." But the CIA's job is to implement the policy, not to make it. Do you think they actually believe Do you think they is that something they even say to them? Did they actually believe that? Because you know from the outside it's always hard not to be more conspiratorial. Well, but it's group

[40:28] think. It's group think where everybody is saying every day Saddam Hussein is so bad. Saddam Hussein is so evil. Look what he did. He just he just issued a presidential proclamation saying that if you criticize him, you have to have your tongue cut out and have it nailed to the front door of your house, which is true. He did issue a proclamation, but nobody ever had their tongue cut out. Uh, oh, he murders everybody he doesn't like. Uh, he murdered his own brother. He murdered his own two

[40:59] sons-in-law. We have to overthrow him. They're going to throw flowers at us because we're going to liberate them from this evil, demonic uh leader. It's like, actually, no. They're going to rally against a foreign invader and occupier and it's because you guys don't understand the Arab mindset and you don't understand the history of the Middle East.

[41:30] But people like Donald Rumsfeld was in he shook his hand. You know, everyone everyone famous shakes his hand and we knew they was using chemical weapons on the Kurds and the Iranians in the Iran Iraq war. There's documents that explicitly say we knew and then we even found out they was coming from Western Europe and some of them were subsidiaries of American companies. I mean, and we backed it and backed it and backed it and then, you know, we turned on him when he invades Kuwait. I mean, it's just so strange, you know, like Donald Ram shakes his hand, they have

[42:00] this policy and they're like, "This guy's evil." And they could have gone like, "Well, we was using him against Iran then." But it's like, right. Yeah. And and the policy at the time, you're talking about the Reagan administration during the 1980s. The policy was to support both Iran and Iraq because we hated them both and we wanted that war to last as long as possible so that they would destroy one another. It it's it's scandalous. And that's why when he's when he's dropping chemical weapons on

[42:31] the Kurds and and massacring thousands of innocent civilians and electrifying the uh the the swamps in southern Iraq outside Basra and electrocuting, you know, both fishermen and Iranian troops. We just said, "Ah, well, that's war. That's a shame." Yeah. Yeah. No, no, there definitely was that, you know, the whole Iran Contra scandal with playing them off each other. Whether we preferred Iraq or Iran, I'm not not particularly sure. But

[43:02] just just on that, actually, I know we've only got a few minutes left. Just I guess with the the war on drugs question, you know, the Contras, it was always alleged that um well, the Contras were using, you know, cocaine sales and things like that. But you know, how how involved or not at all do you think the US government, the CIA was with the contras and cocaine and and the speculation that you know, crack in the 80s in the inner city and then, you know, Ricky Ross, all all that type of

[43:33] thing. Um, you know, was that as bad as people think or was it, oh, we knew it was going on, but we turned a blind eye because we wanted the Contra to overthrow the Nicaraguan government and there was a ban on Congress to to fund them, which is why we was selling the weapons through Israel to to Iran. Um, what do you make of the speculation about the complicity in in the drug trade at at that time or beyond as well? I I think the latter is the truth, you know, and in in the interest of um

[44:04] transparency. I was I was the script adviser on the film Kill the Messenger, which was about CIA support for the importation of cocaine from Central America that found its way to Los Angeles and launched the crack epidemic. I believe that was the case. I've never believed and I don't think that there's direct evidence that the CIA um ran the program. I believe that the CIA facilitated the program, allowed it to happen, turned a blind eye, and just

[44:36] said, "Hey, drugs, that's DEA's problem. It's not our problem. Our problem is we need to defeat communism in Central America." So yeah, when you see when you see shows like Snowfall for example, which I think is absolutely brilliant, just about all of the storyline there is true. It Yeah, I think I've heard of the show. I have to give it a watch. And would you think it's the same again? Because we have in the 80s crack. Okay. And then in the early

[45:08] 2000s we have the opioid crisis and that and then you everyone's seen the graph in year 2000 Afghanistan opium's down down we invade go up up and up and up and again that can just be within the chaos and there's this guy uh who we need on our side so we turn a blind eye. Do you think similar situation again? No actually I think it's the Chinese that are pushing um opioids into the United States. Well it's also big pharma. We know what big pharma has done to this country, but uh it's it's the Chinese. And it's the same thing we did to the

[45:39] Iranians and the Russians with uh with heroin poppy from Afghanistan. 93% of the world's heroin was being produced in Afghanistan while the US occupied the country. But all of that heroin went to Iran and Russia. And we wanted them to be addicted to heroin because it weakened their societies. It weakened their cultures. Well, the Chinese aren't stupid. They see that our society is weakened uh with the importation of opioids and fentinyl and so it's in Chinese national interests to to push

[46:10] fentinel across the border. I think that's what we're seeing and a a lot of the heroine as well came from Afghanistan did go to Europe as well in that in that period. But um yeah you've given me uh plenty plenty of time here. I always appreciate speaking to you. My pleasure. Good to talk to you. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'd love to have you on again. Just general discussion. It's good to to get your get your thoughts. But um again, thanks for your time and I recommend people uh watch some of the recent podcasts you've done. Are you are you doing a show at the moment with

[46:41] Colonel um Douglas McGregor about the JFK files? I saw a clip come up. was is there something going on there or was that I I did a I did a an episode of Piers Morgan's show um on that issue and I've got a show on a platform called Unified Television. It's unifyd television and we we specialize in these CIA stories, these conspiracy stories and we try to prove or disprove

[47:11] um some of the stories and to tell historical stories based on declassified CIA documents. So, it's called CIA declassified and it's at unified TV unifiD. Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes in the screen. I know it's not really a CIA thing, but did um do you cover at all anything that's come out about Epste? I know you've discussed him, Jeffrey Epste, and your Yeah, we we did an episode on EP on on Epstein, and I I sort of laid out the evidence that shows that he was most likely a Mossad

[47:43] um a Mossad agent of access. Yeah. No, I s I saw that. Um okay. Yeah, I'll put that all in the show notes. Again, thank you for your time and uh have a rest rest of the day. It's nice and early for you still. Thanks. Nice and early. I have lots of work to do. Thanks. Good to talk to you. Thank you. See you later.
