Title: Kiriakou & Gerald Horne on the Indictment of \"Russian Agents\"
Show: Katie Halper
Date: 2023-04-26
URL: https://youtu.be/7SObrtWSxO4
Duration: 57:00

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[00:03] Okay, calm down. You got nervous, man. Okay, calm down. Hello everyone and welcome to the Katie Halper Show. So excited to be here with you. We have an amazing show for you today. Uh just going to get started with it, but I have some important announcements. But first, who are we talking to on today's show? We will be talking to esteemed, prolific, unstoppable historian Gerald Horn. And

[00:35] then we'll be talking to CIA whistleblower John Kuryaku. But first, again, some announcements. Uh please subscribe to this channel. It's a great way to help uh grow the show and bring more people to the show. We've passed 90,000 subscribers, which is great, and we couldn't have done that without you. But let's get to 100,000. Let's get past 100,000. So again, to do that, you just hit subscribe and then you hit the bell. And then that way you also uh don't miss any of our streams or any of our clips. And what else can you do? You can also

[01:05] like the video. Please do like this video right now. Just hit the like. That's another way to help the algorithm so we can fight against the corporate overlords who try to control us through uh suppress algorithmic suppression. Uh like any of the videos that you watch, like it right now. Like videos that you watch uh after the fact. Also, you can become YouTube members and that way you get access to uh cute badges and emojis. So, make sure you consider that and become Patreon supporters for just $1 a month. That's $12 a year. You help make

[01:37] the show happen. It really couldn't have happened without your support. And if you can afford to become Patreon supporters at the $5 a month level, you get amazing extended interviews and bonus interviews. So, for instance, on tonight's show, uh if you're watching live, you're in luck. you'll be able to see the full interview with John Kuryaku. But if you're watching later in order to see the full interview with John Kuryaku, then you'll have to go to patreon.com/thekatyhelper show. Again, that's patreon.com/thekatyhelper show. And there are other interviews that we don't play at all during the

[02:07] live streams. And uh you have access to that again at patreon.com/thekatyateler show at the $5 level. And thank you so much to everyone who already is a Patreon member at either level. Um, I'll be speaking to Michael Hudson and Richard Wolf, and those will be mostly Patreon only, so it's definitely worth uh your while. Now, another announcement. We have some great news. So, as people probably know, I started a petition for Roger Waters right to perform in Frankfurt. Uh, Frankfurt had

[02:39] uh cancelled one of his concerts, a May 28th concert, because they smeared him as an anti-semite uh over his support of Palestinian human rights and over his criticism of Israel. So, we launched a petition demanding they reverse their decision. A lot of you signed it. Over 35,000 people signed it. Also, uh Roger Waters challenged them in court. And an amazing news guys read uh quoting Deutsche, an administrative court in the German city of Frankfurt on Monday found that

[03:10] neither the city nor the state of Hess had the right to cancel a Roger Waters concert at the Frankfurt Fest Hall as it had previously sought to do. The court said that as the owners of concert organizer Messi Frankfurt, the state and city were obliged to quote make it possible for Waters to stage the concert end quote as contractually agreed. So, yay, good news. And more good news uh about another guest of the show and friend of the show, Laura Shehy, who I had on a couple months ago. She's the assistant professor of clinical

[03:40] psychology at George Washington who had been smeared as an anti-semite by uh the right-wing pro-Israel group Stand with Us. And she's been fully exonerated by a third party investigation. So, we got two victories that we can be excited about. Um, so I think that's all the announcements I'm going to make. I'm just going to get the show rolling because I know you guys are very excited about tonight's guests. Uh, we're going to bring on the extremely prolific historian Gerald Horn, who holds the Moors Professorship of History and African-American Studies at the

[04:12] University of Houston. His research has addressed issues of race in a variety of relations involving labor, politics, civil rights, and war. He is the author of over 40 books, the latest of which is the counterrevolution of 1836, Texas, Slavery, and Jim Crow, and the roots of US fascism. So, welcome, Dr. Horn. Thank you for inviting me. of course. So excited to have you back on the show. Always learn so much from talking to you. We're going to be talking about this uh very scary indictment of four US

[04:42] citizens who are accused of being uh illegal agents of the Russian government. But before we get to that, I want to talk to you about what is happening in Sudan. Um as people probably know, um 459 civilians at least have died since fighting uh broke out on April 15th. But what is happening there? Why is it happening there? And what is the role of the West in this conflict? Well, as you may know, in the 1980s, in a previous career as a left-wing lawyer,

[05:13] I was brought by the Union of Arab Jurists to engage in shuttle diplomacy with regard to the then percolating civil war between Sudan and what became South Sudan about a decade ago when it successfully declared independence. But in order to understand what's happening in Sudan, you have to go back to independence in the mid 1950s when Sudan had an exceedingly strong communist party, perhaps the second strongest on the continent behind South Africa that was enmical to US cold war interests

[05:45] which then began to destabilize the country and like a seessaw that led to the rise of military forces ruling in cartoon not to mention religious zealots the latter of whom included the notorious Osama bin Laden. who was housed there in the 1990s according to the US CIA at least and Mr. Clinton then fighting sex scandals lob cruise missiles at cartoon supposedly to destroy Mr. bin Laden and his forces but actually destroying manufacturing facilities. But in terms of the present

[06:16] crisis, it stems from an intercent conflict within the military. That is to say, as many of your audience may know, the Sudin military versus a wing of the Sudin military. It would be as if the Pentagon was fighting the Navy Seals and the Green Berets. But there are economic issues as well. The Sudin military no doubt would like to ape the military in neighboring Egypt which controls a good deal of the economy uh in Cairo. Uh the

[06:46] so-called rapid support forces which are fighting the Sudin military are backed by the Gulf Arabs, United Arab Emirates. The rapid support forces have sent young men to their deaths in the losing war in Yemen uh which is backed as you know by the Saudis. The Sudin military is backed by the Egyptian military. The United States is very upset because uh the Vagner group of Russia has established close ties to Sudan's neighbor. Speaking of the Central African Republic, the

[07:19] Russians, we are told, are establishing a military base in Port Sudan on the Red Sea due south of that major choke point that is the Suez Canal. And we know that the United States supposedly is withdrawing a number of its diplomats and US nationals from its base in Djibouti due east. But there is concern that that might lead to a disguised intervention of sorts by Uncle Sam. Wow. Okay. Um what do you think is uh

[07:52] concerning the United States in this conflict? Well, they're concerned about Russia. It also they're also concerned that France cannot keep a lid on its neoc colonial empire. That's been the de facto arrangement between Paris and Washington going back to the Suez debacle of 1956 when you'll recall that Britain, France, and Israel attacked Egypt for control of the Suez Canal. After that fiasco, London decided to tie its apron strings closer to Uncle Sam. Uh France went in a

[08:23] different direction. Washington said, "Fine, but you ought to be able to keep a lid on this neoc colonial empire." That is not happening. You know that the French have been ousted from Mali. They're in bad odor in Borina Faso. That is having knock-on effects with regard to the European Union and neighboring Chad due west of Sudan. You see that relations are broken down between Berlin and and Jamaa. So Washington is probably concerned that it needs to elbow France aside since it can no longer play its

[08:55] neoc colonial role. That is not necessarily winning friends and influencing people in France. Recall that Mr. Mcronone just a few days ago raised questions about whether France and the European Union would be on board with this new cold war against China. So this is a very complicated situation in Sudan that has repercussions both uh continentally in Africa and globally. Uh Vice President Kla Harris recently went to Africa and she was asked a lot

[09:25] by the media about what uh the United States was going to do to stop China from interfering in Africa. Uh what are your thoughts on this framing? Well, what's curious about Vice President Harris's trip to the continent is that every airport she landed in Acra Ghana, Lusaka, Zambia, Dar Salam, Tanzania, the airports were either partially or wholly funded and or designed by Chinese interests. And so the Africans listened

[09:56] politely and courteously, but it would not be in their best interest to tag along after Uncle Sam with regard to this latest escapade. a new cold war that can only be to the detriment of African interests. And what is your what are your thoughts on the role of China in Africa? Well, it's complicated. I think the question is what do Africans think? They're they're mostly in favor because if China was not there, that would give France and Uncle Sam and London and the

[10:28] traditional powers more leeway to force unwanted proposals down Africans throats. The Africans want a counterveilling force and China plays that role. Not to mention helping to build infrastructure. Be it a a railway from Nairobi, Kenya, the capital, to the Indian Ocean coast city of Mombasa, or a railway from Adis Ababa, Ethiopia, the second most populous nation on the African continent due east to Djibouti, which is now the major port for Adis

[11:00] Ababa for Ethiopia since the country is virtually landlocked and not to mention the African Union headquarters itself in Adis Ababa, Ethiopia. So uh generally speaking the Africans say thumbs up with regard to China because the alternative would be uh the European powers and North Atlantic uh nations generally running roughshot over their sovereign interests. Um and what do you think of this? It seems like there is perhaps consideration uh of a more multi-olar

[11:32] world. Uh you I heard during an interview refer to this you mentioned Macron sounding somewhat interested in this. Uh what are your what are your predictions? Well I think it's already in motion. Uh you need only look at the hysteria in Washington. Bipartisan hysteria by the way concerning China. It's very dangerous. You know that US military forces just engaged in major military maneuvers off the coast of South China with their Filipino comrades. Imagine if China had been engaged in

[12:05] maneuvers off the coast of Los Angeles or San Francisco, let us say with the Cuban forces, for example, uh you would have people in Washington running around with their hair on fire. So multipolarizing and a multipolar world is I think already in motion. The only question is to what extent will it go? Will it lead to ddollarization? that is to say the increasing uh lack of use of the dollar and international trade. You already see that with regard to China and Saudi

[18:49] to torch the White House, sending James Madison, the president, and his geralous spouse, Dolly, fleeing into the streets, one step ahead of the Posi, with the black people then fleeing on British ships to Trinidad and Tobago, where their descendants continued to reside. In the 20th century, you saw black people at the time when Whitro Wilson, the then US president in the first uh two decades of the 20th century, uh he sent US troops into Mexico in order to try to ensnare Ponchovilla. At that

[19:20] time, you had black people in solidarity with Ponchovilla. And so, this has been a repetitive pattern. And I think that there's a certain kind of paranoia about the black community. There's the fear that because we are so maltreated and mistreated that our ears will perk up whenever a foreign p policy excuse me whenever a foreign power uh beckons in our direction. And I think that that is the underlying force if you like behind the indictment of the African people's

[19:52] socialist party. Yeah. And it seems like uh it's extremely infantilizing also, right? Because it's the the idea is that uh these people like Omali Yeshella who's been involved in activism for decades. Uh he's 80 I believe 80 or 81 years old. Uh the idea that he can't have his own political ideas that he has to be doing this at the behest of a foreign government. uh like his own critique of NATO can't be something that he comes up

[20:23] with on his own is very offensive. Well, if you'll recall during the cold war, if Moscow took a certain position and you had a similar position, uh ipso facto that meant that you were an agent of Moscow. It it got to the level absurdity. I'm saying this in order to illustrate the absurdity. That is to say that if Moscow was in favor of fighting tooth decay and you were in favor of fighting tooth decay, that might mean that you're an agent of Moscow. And that, as I said, I think to to

[20:54] understand this strange phenomenon, you really have to understand a the historic mil malreatment and mistreatment of black people, which then leads to paranoia that we will then ally with foreign power powers. And of course we have allied powers. But it seems to me the answer is to reduce if not eliminate the maltreatment and mistreatment. And then you don't have to be tossing out uh indictments against black organizations like you're tossing out confetti for example.

[21:27] Right. Um and can you talk a bit about this tradition of black uh inter internationalism? Well, certainly uh if I'm not mistaken, uh Chairman Omali himself was involved in the San Francisco Bay area with the Black Panther Party and they are usually exhibit A when it comes to internationalism. Recall that they established a legation, a diplomatic mission in North Africa and Algeria. At a time when Congo Brazville was known

[22:00] as the People's Republic of the Congo and was ruled by pro-socialist elements, they sent delegations there. The Black Panther Party sent delegations to North Korea uh to Vietnam when the United States was involved in a shooting war with Vietnam. And in fact, the Black Panthers offered to organize battalions to go fight alongside the the Vietnamese. And indeed uh this too got them into quite a bit of hot water helping to explain why they were

[22:30] pulverized so severely up to and including uh leaders such as Mark Clark and Fred Hampton being shot in their beds in December 1969 by officers of the state. So this question of black alignment on with the real or imagined antagonist in the United States it's a very serious issue. It's really one of the most powerful tools that the black community has. But alas, because you tend to be se severely punished if you

[23:01] use that tool, most decide to stay away from that tool. Um, I wanted to share some clips of uh modern day because it's of course not just a historical phenomenon. we're seeing this indictment today, but also some other examples of uh people suggesting that projects of black liberation are actually Russian ops. So, uh let's take a look at what Kla Harris had to say uh and the Breakfast Club about Colin Kaepernick's uh protest.

[23:35] So, that's what they start to do, right? That's what they start to do. They did it then, they will do it now. You know, people have said if you look at, for example, the whole remember the whole the heat that ended up around the bend the knee and Colin Kaepernick, many smart people have said it actually was not a thing. Mhm. The Russian bots started taking that on. Really? Yes. You feel like you're being targeted by Russian bots now? Well, we already know we are. Yeah.

[24:08] So, any thoughts on that? I have another clip, too. But I'm not sure I heard correctly. Was Vice President Harris suggesting that Russian bots were promoting Colin Kaepernick, the former San Francisco 49ers quarterback who a few years ago began to protest police terror against black people by kneeling on the grid iron, which to this very day has led to

[24:39] his being quote black ballalled unquote by the National Football League. Was that the import of what she was seeing? Yeah. Well, I'm sure Vice President Harris is sufficiently intelligent to know better. After all, she was in the San Francisco Bay area when these protests erupted. I assume she was reading the newspapers. As a matter of fact, as district attorney of San Francisco, she was involved in a number of controversial cases where the San Francisco Police

[25:09] Department should have been brought to account uh with regard to uh mistreatment and maltreatment of black citizens and were not. In fact, she's probably familiar with the uh Oakland based attorney uh John Barers who's made a pretty penny uh suing the San Francisco Police Department, including uh during her administration. So, it's disappointing if that is the import of what Vice President Harris was saying then.

[25:39] Well, yes, and and it's uh certainly a trendy thing to say because here's Susan Rice. Uh we have a clip of Susan Rice talking to Wolf Blitzer. Uh people probably know although this is uh there's some uh breaking news. She is stepping down uh from her role as a uh domestic policy adviser for Biden, but she of course was before that national security adviser and ambassador to the United Nations under President Barack Obama. And here she is talking about the George Floyd protests.

[26:11] Uh and they probably also bet based on my experience, I'm not reading the intelligence uh today uh or these days, but based on my experience, this is right out of the Russian playbook as well. The Russian playbook as well. But we can't allow the extremists, the foreign actors to distract from the real problems we have in this country that are longstanding, centuries old, and need to be addressed responsibly by new leadership.

[26:42] You're you're absolutely right. on the uh foreign interference because we know for decades the Russians uh when it was the Soviet Union, the communists, they've often often tied tried to embarrass the United States by promoting the the racial divide in our country. But what you're suggesting, ambassador, is that they're still trying to do that. Is that what you're saying? Well, we see it all the time. We've seen it for years and and frankly every day on social media where they take uh any divisive, painful issue, whether it's

[27:12] immigration, whether it's gay rights, whether it's gun violence, and always racism, and they play on both sides. Their aim is not simply to embarrass the United States Wolf. Their aim is to divide us, to cause us to come into combat with each other, to disintegrate from within. And I would not be surprised to learn that they have fuamented some of these extremists on both sides using social media. I wouldn't be surprised to learn uh that they're funding it in some way, shape, or form.

[27:47] Well, all I can say is physician hill thyself. As you know more than most, the United States has this National Endowment for Democracy so-called which interferes in the internal affairs of over 190 different countries oftentimes trying to stir unrest. And so obviously Susan Rice knows about that particular tool since I'm sure as US ambassador to United Nations she was receiving briefings about it. But as you also

[28:18] probably know, this idea of blaming Moscow, I think has in a sense come into a roadblock. You may know that the former acting director of the Central Intelligence Agency, um, Mr. Morell has said that when during the 2020 campaign there was this controversy involving the laptop of Hunter Biden, the vice president's the then vice president or excuse me the then presidential nominee

[28:49] Mr. Biden's troublesome that they put out this story with four dozen plus intelligence agents saying that it was probably not uh an accurate story that it was result of Russians agents disinformation etc. He threw Anthony Blinkin the current secretary of state under the bus by saying that it was Anthony Blinkin's idea. I don't think we've heard the last of of this story. And I think that this question of pointing the finger at Moscow whenever there is an issue domestically, uh, the

[29:21] chickens might be in the process of coming home to roost. How so? Well, I don't think that we've heard the last of this Hunter Biden laptop story. Mr. Biden has just announced for reelection. Uh, I'm sure that not only will Fox media seek to recuperate after sacking Tucker Carlson by outstripping Newsmax, Newsmax and One America News in terms of promoting this story. The Wall

[29:52] Street Journal, I'm sure, will pick it up. They've already had columns about it for for example. So maybe that'll cause many in the US electorate to rethink this idea that whenever there is a domestic issue that Moscow is responsible and in any case as you suggested a moment or two ago. Uh it reminds us of what happened during the anti-Jim Crow era whenever there was unrest in the black community. Outside agitators were blamed. Oftentimes the outside agitators were traced to

[30:24] connections in Moscow. In fact, Dr. King himself was accused of being an agent of Moscow. Uh, so I'm surprised that that tactic is still being used because you would think it's terribly moaten by now. Yeah. Sadly, sadly, I guess it's still it's it's motheaten and used at the same time. Well, yes, it must be effective. Uh, otherwise it would not be used. But a as I was suggesting a moment or two ago,

[30:56] this indictment against the African People's Socialist Party has to be taken quite seriously. I've been urging in other uh media appearances that the NAACP and the NAACP legal defense fund, not to mention the American Civil Liberties Union and of course the National Lawyers Guild leaked to their defense. I know that any organization that has socialists in its name will not necessarily be embraced by many liberal forces and many centrist forces. But

[31:27] what needs to be understood and recognized is that just as Dr. Dubo's indictment in 1951 was just a president that helped to give fuel to an overall McCarthyism and overall red scare that eventually ins snared many in Hollywood and snared many in the academy. I would hope that what's happening right now as we speak to the African people's socialist party does not have a similar president that's in

[31:58] the process of being established. Right. I mean, liberals won't say anything because uh they for a couple of reasons, but one is that I think they probably uh just believe whatever they hear about Russia and Russians. Uh they also uh I think if Trump did something like this to his enemies, people would accuse him of fascism, but because it's Biden doing something like this, they won't. And what's really pathetic is that the only remotely corporate or

[32:30] mainstream media that has covered this story was uh Tucker Carlson because Glenn Greenwald brought it up on his show. Obviously, leftist outlets have been, but it hasn't penetrated, you know, MSNBC hasn't talked about it. CNN hasn't talked about I'm sure if they did talk about it, they'd talk about it from the same perspective as the Justice Department. In other words, it would be a story about um catching bad guys as opposed to a story about the criminalization of disscent and speech. Well, fortunately, we have the Katie

[33:00] Halper show which is giving this story ventilation. And that's one of the reasons why I would urge and encourage your audience to give this show a like, to go on Patreon and make a contribution. Uh because right now we're in very desperate straits in in this country with a new cold war brewing with China with forces on the left like the African People's Socialist Party being indicted. Uh if we do not speak up now,

[33:32] I'm afraid to imagine where we will be this time next year. Are you surprised by this division over Russia and China? I mean, I I've brought this up with a bunch of guests, but I feel like a lot of people who I usually agree with on politics. Um, when it comes to this issue of the uh proxy war in Ukraine, there's uh more people, I would say, are susceptible to this kind of cold war 2.0 than I would

[34:04] have expected. Well, let me add a footnote. I think that in the wake of the Putin Xi summit, in the wake of the Xi Mcronone summit, in the wake of the Xi Lula of Brazil summit, I've detected that certain forces on the left, which before all of these summits were supportive of the NATO escapade in Ukraine, either are silent or are rethinking because I think

[34:35] that they've come to realize that Ukraine is chapter one. Taiwan is chapter two and the overall question is maintaining US hedgeimonyy in the face of a stiff challenge from the people's republic of China which is a juggernaut in the passing lane. And I think that many forces on the left have enough good sense and common sense not to go along with that kind of new cold war, which is why they're either a being silent or b

[35:08] rethinking their position. I hope so. Uh tell us about your latest book, Dr. Horn, which I highly recommend. Well, my latest book is on Texas and the roots of US fascism because Texas right now, which is where I'm speaking from. I don't think many in your audience would believe some of the things that are happening here. I mean, countless numbers dying along the border, uh, counties considering shutting down public libraries because they don't feel that they're able to

[35:39] withdraw books they object to from the public libraries. So, they're thinking about shutting down the public libraries. a throwback to what happened during the Jim Crow era where rather than go through desegregation, you had counties shutting down swimming pools or in Virginia, you had in certain counties shutting down public schools and then subsidizing white kids going to privatemies through taxpayers money. Uh this is the sort of thing that's unfolding in the second most populous

[36:10] state in the United States of America. In some ways, Texas makes Florida under Governor DeSantis seem progressive. And so, what I'm trying to do in this book is give the historical background that has led up to this point. And if if I may, in a few days, my next book will drop a revolting capital, racism and radicalism in Washington DC, 1900 to 2000. It's ironic that the capital of a state that for the longest was an aparate state had a black majority. And

[36:41] so I'm trying to explain that uh the ramifications of it particularly since black people were more susceptible to being influenced by people like Paul Robson and Web Dubo and people of the left. the kind of contradictions that created particularly when African and Caribbean diplomats started streaming into Washington the 1950s and 1960s and were mistaken quote unquote for black Americans which was not winning United States many friends and the international community and how then that created pressure for the overall retreat of Jim Crow.

[37:13] Wow. And that's coming out when? In a few days. Wow. Do you ever do anything besides write and reads I guess? Yeah, of course. Of as a matter of fact, I'm mourning. I'm in serious mourning about the fact that uh Netflix is stopping its DVD mail service because people think everything is streaming. That's false. There are all sorts of movies and documentaries. I'm not sure what's going to happen to them quite frankly. And uh I spent a lot of time actually watching

[37:44] this kind of documentaries and other movies from all over the world through the DVD service which is disappearing on September 30th. Wow. What's some recent ones that you recommend? Well, I just saw this I just saw this doc I can only talk about what I've seen recently because I see so many they're difficult to distinguish. I just saw this 4-hour documentary on an US aircraft carrier, the Nem. It's like a fly onthe-wall documentary dealing with these 5,000 plus US sailors living in

[38:15] close quarters. The racial conflicts, the gender conflicts, the looming war that they're about to be embraced, excuse me, about to be involved in it. It was quite fascinating. It comes out of PBS. It's called Carrier. Wow. Okay. Carrier. Um, and someone in the comments asked about your another book of yours, one that I haven't read, but I actually really want to. um because he thought it was relevant to our discussion. Uh Class Struggle in Hollywood 1930 to 1950, Moguls, mobsters, stars, breads, and trade

[38:46] unionists. What uh can you tell us about that book? That book came out a few decades ago when I was living in Southern California, and uh it deals with labor history uh in the film industry. Uh it's no accident that Hollywood has produced some of the our most stalwart leftists. Recall that Paul Robson himself was an actor. Harry Bellafonte was an actor. If you look at screenwriters like Daltton Trumbo, who wrote the screenplay to Spartacus,

[39:17] one of the most powerful anti-slavery films ever produced, he was also a funer of the Black Panther Party, for example, and was also one of the celebrated Hollywood 10, that is to say, the screenwriters and directors who were quote blacklisted unquote because of their politics. And so this book, Class Struggle in Hollywood, deals with strikes and labor unrest in Hollywood by below the line workers, as they're called, painters, set decorators, uh, etc. And of course, as you know, the

[39:48] writers in Hollywood as we speak are about to be on the picket line because they're really being cheated royally by the studios and they're raising their voices and good for them. Well, I Well, I'm going to have to read that book. Um, and anything else that you want to tell us about that you're working on or any final thoughts because you've been so generous with your time. Well, you may have inferred reasonably that I'm working on a book on the Black Panther Party right now and I'm probably going to write it by the end of the year

[40:18] and it's it'll probably be be out next year. It's dealing with the Black Panther Party in Southern California. So therefore, I'm dealing with Dalton Trumbo. They got a lot of funding from Hollywood. Jane Fonda, for example, her then husband uh Tom Hayden for example, Bert Snder a who produced this powerful anti-war documentary about the Vietnam War was probably the major funer of the Black Panther Party for example. So that all that will be in this next book and of course it'll deal with the Angela Davis case since she comes out of

[40:50] UCLA as you know was fired because of being a member of the Communist Party and then is arrested was facing the death penalty for supposedly being implicated in a courthouse shootout about 50 odd years ago. So it's a large cast and I'm looking forward to writing it. Great. How do you uh what's your writing process? Like your work process, do you uh work during certain hours? Do you like do any methods like what the

[41:21] Pomodoro method where you work for half an hour and you take five minutes off or something? Well, when I'm in writing mode, and I'm really not in writing mode right now. I'm in research mode. But when I'm in writing mode, I'll usually write four or five days a week. I usually have music on. Um, I even even have uh Katie Halper on because it it tends to stimulate my brain to hear people talking. I know some people get distracted. Yeah, I can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, that's my usual mode. And

[41:51] a good day, I would say, is writing seven to 10 pages. Okay. Got it. Wow. That's so fascinating that you can listen to other people talking while you're writing. I can't at all. I can listen to music, but it has to be music I know so it's familiar. Mhm. So, well, not only do I listen to it, sometimes if you come up with a a nice metaphor, it'll go into my text. Oh, great. All right. I'm gonna have to be more poetic and inspire me. And I did not pay Dr. Horn to say any of this, by

[42:21] the way. Either this or or about why people should support my Patreon. Purely organic. Absolutely. So, don't indict him, anyone. Really, please don't put those bad vibes out here. Yeah. Yeah. I shouldn't. Yeah. Well, thank you so much and I'm really looking forward to your next book and of course we always love having you on. So looking forward to talking to you again. Thank you for inviting me. Of course. Thank you. Have a great night. And that was the prolific, legendary Dr. Gerald Horn. Everyone should get his books. I have one of them

[42:52] behind me. It's the big fat red one. That's his counterrevolution book uh about Texas. Uh he's written uh great books about the uh counterrevolution of 1776. That's a really great one. Uh a really great one about boxing that I really enjoyed. And you know, I'm not really into sports, so it's it's so fascinating. Thank you, Cloud, for that super chat. Um also, I forgot to announce in the opening that we're going to be doing a call-in right after the show. So, right after the show, come on

[43:23] over to the call-in and we'll have a fun chat. I'm going to bring on to the stage someone who's been on the show before and he's an amazing guest and amazing storyteller. Uh John Kuryaku is the only person to go to prison over the CIA torture program which he blew the whistle on. He's a former CIA analyst and case officer, a PENUSA award winner and best-selling author. And he's the host co-host of Political Misfits and writes at johncuryaku.substack.com. So welcome John. Oh, you're muted.

[43:56] Yep. Thank you so much. Good to be back. Thank you for coming. Everyone's very excited to have you on. Pleasure is mine. Thank you. Um, so much to talk about. Let's start off with that story that I talked about with Professor Horn, the um indictment of uh three Russian citizens and four US citizens who have been uh accused of uh and I I quote, weaponizing free speech. Russia's foreign intelligence service allegedly weaponize our First Amendment

[44:26] rights, freedoms Russia denies its own citizens to divide Americans and interfere in intellect in elections in the United States, said Assistant Attorney General Matthew G. Olsen of the Justice Department's National Security Division. So that's what apparently Russia is doing. They are weaponizing our First Amendment rights, right? which kind of sounds like uh you're uh criminalizing the First Amendment, United States Justice Department. Crazy. It says also in this indictment

[44:58] um today's announcement paints a harrowing picture of Russian government actions and the lengths to which the FSB will go to interfere with our elections, seow discord in our nation, and ultimately recruit US citizens to their efforts. Uh you know what? In the interest of transparency, um I have a I have a show every day from 12 to two on Sputnik Radio and I didn't approach uh the Russians to to work at Sputnik. They approached me and I turned them down.

[45:30] This was in uh oh very early 2017. And about six months later, they came back and they said, "We'd really like to give you your own show on Sputnik Radio." And I said, "Well, listen. If I do a show like this, I want I would want the freedom to say anything that I want and to criticize anybody that I want, including Vladimir Putin, if it were to come to that. And they said, "Done." And

[46:00] I said, "Really? You are you willing to put that in writing? Like put it in the contract? Done." And they did. And just as an example, on the day that Russian forces crossed the border into Ukraine, I said, "I unreservedly condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and I would hope that the Russians would withdraw their troops immediately." And then we got along with the show. So if if the FBI wants to talk about criminalizing free speech, maybe we

[46:30] should look instead at the Espionage Act and the way it's used as a cudgel to to beat people down who want to exercise free speech by calling out government waste, fraud, abuse, or illegalities, but they don't want to have that conversation. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just insane because it's basically the allegation is that um these people are uh

[47:01] doing these things, making the position, taking the positions that they're taking, making the speeches that they're taking, not because they believe in it, not because they have decadesl long histories of being radicals and uh pan-Africanists and internationalists, but because they're being paid by the Russians. Right. Right. And anything, the other thing that's so ridiculous about this is that anything that is critical of the US will definitionally be in the best interest of the Russian government, just like anything that's critical of the

[47:32] Russian government will definitionally be in the best interest of the US. So anyone who's critical of the United States by that definition is is a Russian asset. It's hilarious, isn't it? And it's ridiculous at the same time. And let's let's look at exactly what this uh this allegation is. This is this is what's called a process crime, right? It's an administrative felony. And if you look at the sentencing guidelines that are posted on the Justice Department's website, conviction for committing this

[48:03] crime, failure to register as a foreign agent, the recommended sentence is 0 to 6 months in a minimum security work camp. It's not even worth prosecuting. You know, you have to ask, is is our country going to be safer by prosecuting this crime? Is society going to be better? Are we going to be a better and stronger country by locking these people up because they they neglected to go to

[48:33] the Justice Department's website to fill out a form? That's what this crime is. The allegation is that these people didn't go to the Justice Department's website to fill out a form. You know, Katie, about 15 years ago, I was hired on a short-term contract by the US Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce. They hired me to write four op-eds. So, I wrote four op-eds, 700 words a piece, and I had to go to the Justice Department's website

[49:04] to the the Foreign uh Agents Registration Act, FAR, website, and I said, "My name's John Kiryaku, and here's my address, and here's my phone number, and I accepted X amount of money to write four op-eds." And then you attach the op-eds. Okay, that's it. Did it really matter? Did anybody I won't even ask if anybody ever read my opeds. Did anybody ever bother to read the form that I filled out? And and so you're going to tell us that

[49:35] these people endangered American society and endangered American politics because they had an opinion that didn't fit in nice and neatly with the with the Justice Department's opinion on whatever issue. And so we're going to prosecute them on felony charges. This is outrageous. It's a waste of resources. And Omali Yeshella is 81 years old, by the way. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's just so funny because it's they're they're trying to present Russia as

[50:07] authoritarian. And what are they doing here with literal speech and disscent? Well, you know, and I'll give you another example. uh Maria Bhina, who was in the news a couple of years ago, um she was convicted of violating this same law, failure to register as a foreign agent. And again, that uh that uh sentencing guideline is 0 to 6 months. Not only did she get 18 months for failing to register, but she spent

[50:37] the entire 18 months in solitary confinement. And then we are outraged when the Republicans Republicans sorry Freudian when the Russians arrest an American citizen and hold them on similarly silly and often times trumped up charges which is what these are right. Um as someone who obviously served prison um time what what do you want people to know about that experience especially as we're talking

[51:08] about people who are facing prison time now? Wow. Where do you even begin? The the US uh prison system at every level, at the federal level, the state level, and local levels, is utterly and completely broken. I did a piece just a week ago for Consortium News in which I went over um just as a a random sampling um uh 15 or 20 prison guards that have been arrested in the last two years. About a third of them have been arrested for raping prisoners, both female and

[51:39] male. The other twothirds have been arrested for smuggling into prisons cell phones and drugs, in many cases hard drugs that ended up killing prisoners that they were selling the drugs too. Uh the system is completely broken. You know, there's a book that was written by Dr. Peter Moscows of um John J. College School of Criminal Justice. It's called In Defense of Flogging, which is kind of a tongue-in-cheek title, but he makes a

[52:10] conclusion that I think is very, very important in this book. He says that at the federal level, the Federal Bureau of Prisons really is nothing more than an employment agency for otherwise unemployable, undereducated rural white men. These are guys who couldn't make it in the military. These are guys who were flunkies from the local police academy and just couldn't make a career out of law enforcement. And in the United States, our prisons

[52:43] are almost entirely in rural areas and they serve as the only sources of um of jobs and thus of income for a lot of rural white men. Well, do you know what the qualifications are for a prison guard in America? And I mean this quite literally. You need a GED and no felony convictions and that's it. It's no wonder that they turn to corruption and drugs and smuggling and

[53:15] rape and end up committing suicide and and beating people and abusing people and standing by while they commit suicide. And again, the the entire the entire system is broken. It needs to be scrapped and rebuilt. Let me let me still standing on my soap box here. Until Ronald Reagan was elected president, you could go to prison in the United States and uh with good behavior, you

[53:46] could get out on federal parole. There is no federal parole anymore thanks to the so-called prison reform act of 1986. Now you get five years or you get 10 years, you're doing five years or 10 years. Uh time also used to be where you could go to prison and learn a skill. You could learn to be a plumber or an electrician or you could fix engines or you know whatever. Learn how to do whatever landscaping.

[54:18] Well, they don't do any of that anymore. So, let's say, as an example, you're doing five years or 10 years on a drug charge. They don't teach you how to read and write. They don't uh they don't give you classes so you can pass the time. They don't give you a skill that you can then adopt uh as a vocation when you get out. They send you straight back to the neighborhood that you came from. and you are not only no better off than you were when you went to prison, but now you

[54:50] have PTSD and you're pissed off, right? And so what are you going to do? You're going to do the only thing you know how to do, and that is to sell drugs again. When I was released, um I was released first to a a halfway house called Hope Village in Washington. It is now defunct for good reason. We used to call it abandon all hope village. There were 220 men in this uh in this facility. There was one, count it, there

[55:22] was one job that was posted on the bulletin board and it was to be a dishwasher at Fudruckers and there were 220 guys beating the hell out of each other to get that one dishwasher job because once you had the job, you could then transfer to your home and then have permission to leave home to go to the dishwasher job. broken with a capital B.

[55:52] That was the wonderful John Kuryaku. Always love talking to him. Uh and interesting anecdotes about Biden and about Tucker Carlson. And you know, I'll just say this about Tucker Carlson. I I'm not I was talking about this with Brad the other day. Uh I think that I'm not interested in rehabilitating Tucker Carlson who has said awful things. Again, for me, it's more it's a sad statement about the fact that you could only find certain voices that

[56:25] should have been on liberal media that you had to go to Tucker Carlson to find those voices or you had to find someone uh arguing to free Assange. You couldn't find that recently on MSNBC and that should be a mainstream position. Um, but uh guys, this has been a great show and uh we are going to keep going on the call-in. Make sure you become Patreon supporters because uh uh this whole uh chat is going to be

[56:59] available. If you're watching this live, you get to see this uh whole thing with John Kuryaku. If you're watching this later, then you can access the show at patreon.comthekatyhelper show. Again, that's patreon.comthekatyhelper show. And you're definitely going to want to because you'll get to hear um John Kuryaku talking about Joe Biden, about being on Tucker Carlson, uh about the leaked Pentagon documents about whether Jack Terara is a leaker or a whistleblower. So, uh do that at

[57:29] patreon.comthecatyhelper show. again, patreon.com/thekatyhelper show. Bye everyone. Thank you so much to Brad, Tyler, and Phantom for the clipping. And thank you to all of you for coming. Bye. Okay, calm down. You're getting nervous, man. Okay, calm down.
