Title: S1E13 Hostages
Show: John Kiriakou's Dead Drop
Date: 2026-02-02
URL: https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68e695c6d798804c9e4bbd13/e/697663926c5100c2bb472a09/media.mp3
Duration: 0:25:33

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[00:00] This podcast is a casted in touchstone production. Hi, I'm John Kiriakuri and welcome to Dead Drop. What makes a spy tick? This is another episode in the series What Makes This Spy Tick. Before we get down to it though, I want to thank you. That's a very, very big thank you, seriously, for listening to this story. As I record this, we just got a surge of new listeners.

[00:32] I'm glad you're here. Your likes, your kind reviews, ratings, and recommendations have all helped more and more people find us, and I'm really deeply appreciative. I'd say we were doing this on a shoestring, but shoestrings cost money. We're doing it for less than that. As I've said from the start, this began and remains a labor of absolute love, of storytelling above all. And thank you for being a part of it. Please keep it up, especially since the best parts of this story are still ahead of us.

[01:02] This episode is called Hostages. It starts exactly where the last episode left off. The divorce decree between Joanne and me stipulated that we each got six weeks with our two sons during the summer. Though I was obligated to give Joanne a week's notice if I wanted to take the boys out of Virginia where I lived, I had told her a month in advance that my parents and I planned to take the boys to Disney World. Apparently me getting to parent our sons, even just for a few weeks, triggered her.

[01:32] As I set out from DC after work on Friday afternoon driving west toward my parents' home in western Pennsylvania, fully expecting that we'd all be heading south the next morning bound for Florida, I got a call from my mom telling me that the boys were, well, they were missing. So was Joanne. I actually was so upset on that long drive home that I had to pull over twice to throw up from the stress. But instead of going to Ohio to see if there was anybody home or not, I took my mom's word

[02:04] for it and I went to my folks house in Pennsylvania instead. So I got there, my parents were waiting up for me and they were full of good advice. I mean, the good advice was I do tend to be a hothead and they wanted me just to relax, take it easy. It's 10 o'clock at night. There's nothing you can do. I'm really not sure what I would have done if left to my own devices. I probably would have tried to break the door down and search the house myself, which would have only gotten me arrested. What I ended up doing was something I probably shouldn't have done.

[02:36] I laid in bed tossing and turning for a couple of hours and then around midnight, I just got into the car and drove to the house in Warren, Ohio and I just sat down the street from it doing my own surveillance. It was clear there was nobody in the house. It was clear. I started the car and drove 36 miles back to my mom and dad's house. It was another 40 minutes to think about what I wanted to do next. There was a quirk in Joanne's personality. Joanne absolutely hated being told what to do.

[03:08] Oftentimes, she would just respond to things in ways that were very difficult to understand and that ended up biting her in the future. That's what happened in this case. The judge had said, you get six weeks with the kids. He gets six weeks with the kids. She said, no. I don't care if you're the judge. I'm not doing that. In fact, she was even reprimanded in court one day because she would always say, my children when speaking about the kids. She would never say our children.

[03:38] She would only say my children. Finally the judge said to her at one point, if you keep saying my children, I'm going to hold you in contempt and I'm going to find you $100. Then she backed off, but she hated being told what to do. She didn't care if it was a family court judge saying, you have to let him have his time with the kids. Saturday morning, the first thing I did when I woke up was I called Mary Jane Stevens to tell her and she says, oh my God, don't fly off the handle and do something crazy.

[04:10] I said, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to do that. I'm relying on your legal advice. I called my boss and I said, I've got this situation. I explained what had happened. I said, I need a week off. He said, okay, go for it. Do what you need. Come back when you're ready. I had more vacation saved than I could use in a lifetime. I decided that I would use my CIA training to try and track them down. And I said to myself, if I were Joanne and I wanted to hide from me, where would

[04:41] I hide? I came up with a list of four or five different people. Relatives, semi-distant relatives, family friends. Every day of that next week, I did surveillance on each one of those sites. On the fifth day, I saw her car at the house of her mother's best friend. She lived in a house that was too big for an 80-something-year-old woman. And I knew that she had an apartment in the basement. And I thought, oh, well, there they are. She's in the basement apartment with the kids.

[05:13] I went home. I called Mary Jane Stevens. I said, I think I located them. She said, okay, we'll go to court on Monday. We'll get this taken care of. Well, I was a hothead. And I didn't want to wait to go to court until Monday. I thought to myself, you know, there's one thing about Joanne. She's irrationally religious. And hiding or not hiding, I bet you any money, she's going to go to church on Sunday. Church started at 9 o'clock. I waited until 10 o'clock. And then I went in and sat in the very last pew.

[05:45] Now, this is the church where my mom and dad were married. My mom was baptized. My kids were baptized. Joanne and I were married. I knew everybody in that church. I sit in the very back pew and I look around. There they are. I saw them. It was Joanne, her mother, her father, and the older of our two kids, Chris, sitting in the very first pew. Chris was eight years old at the time. Constantine, our second son, was five. And he was a little fidgety, I learned later.

[06:18] And so he was sitting with another relative up in the choir loft. There's a point in the Greek Orthodox Liturgy where everybody kneels. You kneel during the consecration of the holy gifts, the communion. And as soon as everybody knelt, I walked right up that center aisle. I said, Chris, come with me. I picked him up and carried him. And I walked very quickly. I didn't run, but I walked right out the door. A friend of mine was waiting outside.

[06:50] I put Chris in the car. I jumped in the car and I told him, take off. It was the only time I had ever seen what I later described to my parents as terror, panic in Joanne's eyes. She ran out. She almost got to the car as we took off. Her mother was about 30 feet behind her. Her father, for whatever reason, never came out of the church. I figured she would call the chief of police personally. He was a family friend. He was Greek American. He was probably in the church too at the time.

[07:22] I told my friend to take back roads back to my parents' house, because I figured they would call the state police out and they would be on the interstate, which is the fastest way home. Chris panicked. He was staring at me like he had seen a ghost. And later, he told me that his mother had told him and his brother that they wouldn't see me anymore, that I had been killed in a car accident. And so when he turned around and looked at me as I was walking up that center aisle, he thought I was a ghost.

[07:53] And that's why he panicked. I'm in the car for five minutes and the police chief calls. And very calmly, he says, bring the boy back to the church. Not a chance, chief. I know you're friends with her. I've heard you're dating her, which ended up being true. I know that this is a setup and that you're going to arrest me as soon as I get back to the church. And I haven't broken the law. This is my custody time and I don't see you arresting her. This local Yoko police officer gets on the phone and he says he's going to be the good cop. Hey buddy, bring the child back to the church

[08:25] and we can talk this out. I said, I have nothing to say to you. You're going to cop spleen to me the way this is going to go? I'm telling you, this is my time with the kids. I have a message for you to pass to the chief and to my ex-wife. I want my second son delivered to my parents' house in the next hour. And I hung up on him. As soon as we crossed the state line into Pennsylvania, I breathed more easily. I called Mary Jane Stevens and I said, Mary Jane, don't yell at me, but here's what I just did.

[08:56] And I told her and she's like, oh man, I told you. And I said, I'm so angry about all this, I just couldn't help myself. She says, okay, well, certainly we're going to be in court on Monday. You might get arrested there. Sure enough, they file a felony charge of aggravated menacing. Her mother said that I grabbed Chris and then I stopped and shouted to the entire congregation. If anybody tries to stop me, it's going to be a blood bath in here. Yeah, that literally never happened.

[09:27] The only words I spoke were, Chris, come with me. Of course, that charge ended up being dropped even before we got to court. Sure enough, on Monday, they moved for an emergency hearing. I called Mary Jane. I said, I'm going to be arrested as soon as I crossed the state line. So what do I do? And she said that she had spoken to the chief and the chief gave her his personal assurance that I would not be arrested and that they would let me go to the hearing. So I said, okay, I'm going to take him at his word. If he's lying, I'm going to trash him in the Greek community and I'm going to be relentless about it.

[09:58] So I went to court. I showed up at court and everything was fine. The judge, who I really liked and respected, the judge said, I can't believe you two would end up like this. Did I just not say a week and a half ago, six weeks for the father, six weeks for the mother? And I said, it is my six weeks, your honor. And I'm out 4,000 non-refundable dollars for a trip to Disney. And she said, that's a civil matter. But just in the interest of getting both sides to calm down

[10:28] and back off, she's not going to hold anybody in contempt. She's not going to point the finger at anybody. But she said, listen to my words as if they are written in stone, six weeks for the father, six weeks for the mother. What I will do, she said, is I'm deducting a week from the mother's time and giving it to the father. And I said, thank you, your honor. And that's how we left it. We never went to Disney that summer. We went the following summer. The rest of that summer, I just tried to patch something together that was going to keep the kids engaged.

[11:00] Later on the day of court, my father drove to a diner called Stateline Diner. It's right on the Pennsylvania Ohio State Line. And that's where Joanne's father turned over Constantine. And so we were reunited there. It was a hostage exchange. It was like the Bridge of Spies. Summertime and the living is easy, am I right, John? That is one of the best parts of Summer Allen. Living really does feel easier. You're about to travel. Good thing you've got a couple of quince pieces going with you. They are as relaxed and comfortable as I want to feel.

[11:32] That's why, whether I'm traveling or staying at home, I reach for the same quince go anywhere pieces again and again. Quince focuses on well made essential. They're the t-shirt I reach for first every time. In all seriousness, I just bought another one today. They're my favorite t-shirts too. And when the ocean breeze kicks in at night, as it does here in LA, a quince lightweight cotton sweater is sublime. And perfect for travel too, which these days has all kinds of new challenges that impact how you pack. So versatility really matters.

[12:04] You got to pack smart like a spy. That's why a pair of quince's 100% European linen pants and a couple of linen shirts are coming with me. They're breathable and easy to throw on. Sometimes I add a t-shirt underneath for a whole other look. They're the summer upgrade anyone's rotation needs. Starting at just $34. That's not a typo. No, it's not. Everything at quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not for brand markup.

[18:57] and they're crying and telling them, I'll see you in paradise. We're hearing talk using code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey. There's going to be a great football match. There's going to be an enormous wedding. These are all code words for a massive attack. We just don't know when and where. So I'm begging you, he says. If you have any sources inside al-Qaeda, please help us. And they just sat there and looked at him.

[19:30] And then he stood up. He shook their hands and he walked out. I was shaken by that briefing. At the end of the day, I sent them back to their hotel. I said, I'll pick you up at seven o'clock. We'll go to the steakhouse. But I went over to Kofir's office to thank him for taking the time to come and talk to us. I mean, this is a guy that is meeting with the president every day or every other day. And he's making time to come to John's little liaison class. I said, Kofir, I've got to ask you. I don't work on al-Qaeda. Did you say that just for their benefit? Or were you serious?

[20:00] And he said, oh, I was deadly serious. Something terrible is going to happen. Well, a couple of weeks later, I fly out to the Middle East and I'm there for six weeks, stop in Rome on the way back to do this thing that they wanted me to do. And I fly back. On the morning of September 11th, 2001, Kofir and I are scheduled to see Condoleezza Rice at the White House at nine o'clock. The reason that we were going to the White House is quaint at this point.

[20:30] There is a minor little-known government agency called the Government Printing Office, GPO. It's located on Capitol Hill. They were preparing to print a volume of declassified cables called Foreign Relations of the United States, Greece-Turkey Cyprus, 1949 to 1967. Now, they're probably only going to print five or 10 copies of this thing.

[21:01] Nobody's ever going to read it unless there's some PhD candidate who needs to examine one specific cable. But three of these old cables identified CIA sources who were still alive. And there is an obscure law in this country that if the US government outs the identity of a recruited CIA source, we have to offer that person citizenship and resettlement in the United States.

[21:31] These people are like 100 years old at this point. But we thought it would be easier and cheaper if we went to Condi and asked her to just pull these three cables out of the volume. Nobody would miss them. Nobody would know that they were supposed to be there in the first place. Just pull them. So at about 8.15, I get a call at my desk from the driver saying, I'm at the East entrance and I'm ready to take you to the White House. I walk over to Kofor's office to tell him that our car is ready to go to the White House.

[22:02] Now, these were the days before you could watch TV on your computer. So Kofor's secretary had a little tiny TV on her desk. And I walked over there. She's watching the TV and one of the towers of the World Trade Center is burning. I said, what happened to the World Trade Center? A plane flew into it. And because I'm an idiot sometimes, I said, you know what? That happened once before. In 1930 or 31, a bomber flew into the Empire State Building. But it was really foggy and heavy rain that day.

[22:34] It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center? And just as the words came out of my mouth, the second plane hit the second tower. Neither one of us reacted. And she finally turned to me and said, did you see that? Or did I imagine it? And I ran back to my office and shouted, guys, two planes just hit both towers of the World Trade Center. I think we're under attack. We all ran back up to Kofor's office. There were televisions hanging from the ceiling.

[23:08] And each one of them was tuned to a different network. We had CNN and MSNBC. I don't think there was a Fox yet. Maybe there was. I don't recall. But there was BBC and Canal Plus and the Russian Channel and channels from all over the place. Everybody gathers up there. I'm talking about maybe 150 people who all worked in this big bullpen. That was the Counterterrorism Center. There's complete silence. But all I could think of was, this is what Kofor was talking about. This was the attack that he was talking about.

[23:43] In the next episode of Dead Drop, what makes this spy tick? It's game on. Like the day after Pearl Harbor, everyone wanted to be a part of the war effort, especially me. But actual wars demand actual warriors. And alas, I wasn't the military guy. That would hinder me for a little while. But as you'll hear, eventually I found a way around that roadblock. For understandable reasons, 9-Eleven has become mythic in every one of our minds. We all remember exactly where we were when it began to unfold.

[24:14] But sometimes when we do that to moments as historical as 9-Eleven, we stop looking at them. In a way, we take them for granted. In doing that, we can forget why they matter to us. 9-Eleven really did matter to us. It really mattered to me. An awful lot of what happened to me afterward flowed directly from what happened, not just on that day, but in all the bits and pieces that led up to that day. The devil really is in the details, and I want to share with you as many of those details as I can.

[24:45] Well, as many as I'm allowed to, anyway. If you enjoyed this podcast, please check out my other podcasts and YouTube shows. There's Deep Program, Monday through Friday mornings at 9 o'clock Eastern, on Rumble and YouTube, and also on YouTube, Deep Focus. We drop those about twice a week. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, I'm John Kiriakou. Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz. Costard and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast,

[25:15] and John Kiriakou, Alan Katz, and Nick Mechanic are its executive producers. This podcast, it's a Costard and Touchstone production.
