Title: S2E5 The Abyss
Show: John Kiriakou's Dead Drop
Date: 2026-06-15
URL: https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/68e695c6d798804c9e4bbd13/e/6a29d3734df224c1a48bf864/media.mp3
Duration: 0:53:00

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[06:20] and smart drones and pinpoint accuracy on targeting. We came up with this plan. We would wait until one member of this terrorist group traveled to a country that we had access to. And sure enough, everybody travels. Sure enough, he did travel to Western Europe and we approached him. We did it this way. Very gently, the case officer said, oh, Mohammed, I'm so glad I ran into you. I'm from the CIA in Washington.

[06:52] We were talking to your colleague Abdullah, the other member of your terrorist group. We've been working with Abdullah for years. He told us that you would be a good guy to talk to. And he told us that you were coming here. So we thought we would just kind of bend you and have a conversation. Let us take you to dinner. Of course, he runs screaming from the room. What he does also is he goes back home and he murders Abdullah. And then we wait until Rashid comes out and we say Rashid. We were talking to Mohammed the last time he was here in Vienna, London, wherever.

[07:26] He told us about Abdullah. Abdullah was a true believer, but he works with us and he thought it would be good if you would work with us. So then Rashid goes back and kills Mohammed. We got to the point where literally all of them had murdered one another. And the only one that was left was the founder of the group. He came under suspicion by the leader of the country that he was in. Why are all his people dying? They're all killing each other. Something's up. He probably means me harm and the leader of the country killed the final guy.

[07:59] And that group no longer exists. See, I didn't have to kill anybody. See, I didn't even have access to anybody. We got them to kill each other. With that in mind, I encountered a problem in prison that in real life probably would not have bothered me. In prison, it bothered me greatly. There was a prisoner whom I will call Wallace. Wallace was the biggest cry baby I ever met in my life. He would cry if his team would win at basketball.

[14:49] and his prisoner number. And then I asked one of the guys in the laundry if he would steal me a laundry bag and I gave him a couple of Macs. So he steals me a laundry bag. I wait until five o'clock on Friday afternoon and I put the laundry bag and the merry go round on Wallace's bed. So I'm sitting there with one of the Italians. Five thirty Wallace comes in. He was whistling, hey, guys, hey, Wallace, how are you doing? He walks over to his bed and he gasps.

[15:21] What? And he holds up the merry go round and the laundry bag and he says, I'm going home. What? What do you mean? I'm going home. I won my appeal. Oh, my God, Wallace, nobody ever wins their appeals. I won. I knew I was innocent. I won my appeal. I'm going home. I have to call my lawyer. He runs to the phone bank. Well, even fancy New York lawyers go home by five thirty or six on a Friday night. He goes to the unit manager's office. He left at three.

[15:52] The counselor left before that. It comes back. His mind is racing. And the Italian says, Wallace, we got to have a dinner for you. Sunday night, let's get everybody together. We're going to celebrate your victory. He's like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. He starts crying. Then he starts going up and down the halls, telling everybody he won his appeal. He's going home on Saturday. He gave away all of his possessions. Everything just gave it away to indigent prisoners. On Sunday, we had a huge going away dinner for him.

[16:26] Pasta and chicken breast and the whole nine yards. The Italians really did it. Monday morning, we began walking with him to R&D, receiving and discharge, intake and out processing. Now, I got the rest of the story from the cop in R&D. He was one of the two or three friendly cops toward me in the entire prison. He said that Wallace went in and handed him the merry-go-round. The cop said, who are you?

[16:56] I'm Wallace. What are you doing here? I'm going home. The cop looks at the merry-go-round. He tells him, turn around. You're under arrest for what? Attempted escape and cuffs him. He bursts into tears. They take him to solitary. He's in solitary for six weeks, and then they transfer him to another prison, one in New Jersey. I said to the Italians, I thought he would never shut his fucking mouth. One of the Italians, a made man from New York, he said to me,

[17:29] that was cold even by our standards. I said to him, sometimes it's best to use dirty tricks, especially when it's to save your own sanity. Rule number six is the human body can endure much more than the brain says it can. Now, at the CIA, that rule was actually that the human body can endure much more punishment than the brain says it can. I adapted it to prison life.

[17:59] At the CIA, what this meant was once, twice, maybe more than twice. Over the course of your career, you're going to get into a fistfight and you're going to get hurt. Most of us worry unnecessarily about fistfights. Getting punched in the face hurts, but it only hurts for a minute and then it doesn't hurt anymore. The worry about being punched in the face is far more difficult than the actual punch. I've been punched in the face. This was when I was at the agency and to tell you the truth

[18:31] with the chemical dump that your body initiates when a fight starts. You don't even feel it. I noticed later in the evening that my cheek was a little bit sore. No big deal. I took a Tylenol. That was the day that the guy called my wife a whore and I beat him into a coma. He got one punch in and he got me in the cheek. No big deal. I didn't even feel it. Broke my hand on his face. That hurt more. I still don't have full use of my hand. But in prison, I adapted this rule.

[19:02] The human body can endure much more than the brain says it can. And I included in that not just the punch in the face, but depression. Everybody is depressed in prison. I remember walking out to the yard with Dave and there was an African-American prisoner walking a few feet in front of me. I heard him say to the guy that he was walking with, I have been sleeping in the same bunk every night for the last 10 years. And I'm going to stay in that same bunk every night for the next 10 years.

[19:36] And I remember thinking, my God, there, but for the grace of God, go I. I have no right to complain about my lousy, measly 23 months. I have no idea what this guy did. It was probably a drug charge. We have draconian sentences in this country for drug charges, but 20 years in the same steel bunk with a mattress that is as thin as a bath towel. But we take it. We get depressed and we take it.

[20:08] What you do to fight it is you try to eat right. You exercise every day and you try to distract yourself. For me, that began as reading books. I'm a voracious reader anyway. In that short 23 months, I read well over 100 books. And for me also, it was writing. I made a promise that very first day in prison that I would respond to everybody who wrote to me. I wrote 7000 letters to 675 different people.

[20:38] And then I got it into my head that maybe I'll write a book. It started off as a joke. It became doing time like a spy. How the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison. And it won two literary awards. I wrote that book in longhand on legal pads. One word at a time. Summertime and the living is easy. Am I right, John? That is one of the best parts of Summer Allen. Living really does feel easier. You're about to travel. Good thing you've got a couple of quince pieces going with you.

[21:09] They are as relaxed and comfortable as I want to feel. That's why whether I'm traveling or staying at home, I reach for the same quince go anywhere pieces again and again. Quince focuses on well made essential. They're the t-shirt I reach for first every time. In all seriousness, I just bought another one today. They're my favorite t-shirts too. And when the ocean breeze kicks in at night, as it does here in LA, a quince lightweight cotton sweater is sublime. And perfect for travel too, which these days has all kinds of new challenges that impact how you pack.

[21:42] So versatility really matters. You got to pack smart like a spy. That's why a pair of quince is 100 percent European linen pants and a couple of linen shirts are coming with me. They're breathable and easy to throw on. Sometimes I add a t-shirt underneath for a whole other look. They're the summer upgrade anyone's rotation needs. Starting at just $34. That's not a typo. No, it's not. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman.

[28:43] He's not going to even ask for the same movies. You're going to ask for. He's probably never heard of the same movies you're going to ask for. But Dave wanted to go to the mat over this and kept telling him back off, back off. And finally the guy sets a stance. And as soon as he set his stance and bawled up his fists, I was like, well, Dave's not listening to me. And then Dave took one right to the face. Hard enough that it knocked him down. I put out my hand. I pulled him up and the guy's like, fuck you.

[29:13] Fuck you, motherfucker. I told Dave, just stop. You're going to end up in solitary. Finally, one of the cops comes out of the library. What the fuck's going on out here? Nothing. Somebody told a joke. Everybody got loud for a second. The cop just goes back in the library. Dave bitched about it for the entire day. And I said, Dave, does your face hurt? Not really. Then shut the fuck up. Stop worrying about it. It's over. Did the guy take your movies? No, he didn't take your movies.

[36:13] was 12 for the last six years. She says, you should sue him. They have a lot of money and you should sue him and you can start a new life in the United States. The kid finds a lawyer who's willing to take the case on contingency. They file a lawsuit in the Eastern district of Pennsylvania. The court clerk sees this and says, why is this a civil suit? This is a criminal case. He's been raping this little boy for six years.

[36:44] The court clerk calls the FBI. They grab Ken. Ken's parents have the whatever it is, $250,000 for bail. Ken happens to be Jewish. As soon as he gets out of jail, straight to Israel because Israel doesn't extradite Jews and it doesn't matter what they're accused of doing. Ken is living fat and happy in Israel. The parents are sending money so he lacks for nothing. And the FBI has to try to figure out a way to get him because the

[37:17] Israelis are not going to turn him over. They came up with an ingenious plan. They took out an ad in all the Israeli newspapers, English language newspapers, saying that there was going to be a once in a lifetime ballet extravaganza of all children in Cyprus. One night only. It's never going to happen again. The greatest child ballerinas and ballet dancers in the world are

[37:47] all gathering in Lima, Seoul on this one night. Ken is so fucking arrogant that he buys a ticket figuring, I'll just slip into Cyprus for a few hours and then fly right back out. There's no ballet extravaganza. It's all made up and interpoles wait and form at the airport. And they grabbed him and they extradited him from Cyprus. He's extradited back to the United States. He's denied bail. The kid hires an attorney from Eastern Pennsylvania. The attorney came to the prison to interview me.

[38:19] That's a different story. But he hires this attorney, a list attorney. The attorney happens to be an amateur astrophotographer. Right. He has a camera that he attaches to a very high power telescope. And he takes photos of Nebulae and planets and whatever galaxies. There happens to be a Jewish school across the street from his home in the Philly suburbs. There's a group of kids from the school who are on a day trip

[38:50] somewhere and the bus comes home late. It comes back to the school late. The attorney's in his front yard looking at the stars. The kids see him. They all run over there. Hey, can we look in your telescope, mister? Of course you can. He shows them whatever it is he's looking at. Jupiter with all of its moons. There is all very exciting. And the head of school says, please let us repay your kindness for showing the kids, you know, these planets. They're all so excited. They all want to be astronomers now.

[39:22] We're going on a trip to Israel. We would love it if you would join us on the trip to Israel. No, the lawyer also happens to be Jewish. And he says, oh my gosh, you know what? I've never been to Israel. They said all expenses paid. We'd love to take you. You can act as a chaperone. He goes to Israel. Next thing you know, he gets an invitation to meet with a minister of education. So he goes to the ministry of education in Jerusalem. This is a bizarre story, you know, he goes to the ministry of education

[39:53] and the minister says the head of the school told me about the kindness that you showed the students and you showed them the planets and your telescope and they're all excited. Could the state of Israel ask one favor of you? Make this case against Ken Schaefer go away. And he said, you lured me all the way to Israel. What kind of power does this man's family have? He said, I will die before I let this case go away. He's a monster and you should have recognized that he was a monster.

[40:29] He cut his trip short and went back to Philadelphia. And he said it energized him to just nail Ken to the wall. Ken was charged with two counts of violating the man act, which is transporting a person across state lines for the purpose of illicit sex. And he was charged with one count of whatever they're calling pederasty these days. Male on male sex with a child. One of the man act cases was thrown out. But in the end, he was convicted of the other two and he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

[41:03] So I confronted him and I said, you fucking monster. M&A irregularities? Seriously? You're smart enough to know that every fucking detail of your case is available to anybody who goes to the law library and types in your name. You're not getting anywhere near my room. No, you're not rooming with me. You need a room with the other pedophiles and you need to eat at the pedophile table. He took that as a direct challenge. Ken thought he was smarter than I was. He was book smarter than I am, certainly.

[41:33] But this wasn't books and he certainly didn't have the training that I had. He started his war against me by spreading rumors. But he underestimated how much I was liked by everybody in the prison. He must have known my story. But this was the thing about Ken. He was so arrogant. He thought that he was so smart that nobody could do anything to him. I realized I was going to have a problem with him when two black guys came up to me.

[42:04] And I vaguely knew who these guys were. I couldn't remember their names. I would always say, hey, buddy, how are you doing? Hey, big guy, how are you doing? Whenever I can't remember somebody's name. I vaguely remembered helping these guys out somehow. Like I wrote an appeal or I wrote a letter or I did something to help these guys. When I first arrived there and they were still very grateful. I didn't even remember them, but they were still grateful. So they came up to me and said, hey, John, there's this new guy. Shaefer. Yeah, he's a bad guy.

[42:36] Yeah, he offered us money to fuck you up to fuck me up. Yeah, but you've been good to us and we wanted to tell you what was going on. He's out there like soliciting for somebody to fuck you up. I said, I appreciate the heads up. Thank you. The same thing happened with Hispanics. One of the guys from the burachos came up to me, Mexican cartel guy. I had written his appeal and he said, hey, this chomo came up to me, offered me $500. I said, $500. He said he wanted me to lay you out.

[43:08] And I said, did he say why? He said, no, he said, he said you hate Jews and that you're anti-Semitic. I said, I hate Jews. What? Dude, I just wanted to give you heads up that there's a guy gunning for you. So I mentioned to Dave, I said, you know, much as I hate to do it, I'm going to have to be proactive about this. I'm going to have to get him before he gets me. I decided to use the light touch at first. Why go straight to the nuclear option? I thought if I could put the fear of God in this guy and I scare him enough that he backs off, that's a victory for me.

[50:02] They grab Art, they grab Dave, they grab Ken. They put all three of them in solitary. They're in there for about six weeks, which was sort of the standard. Art was sent to a prison in Illinois somewhere. Dave was sent to a prison in Ohio and Ken was sent to a prison in New Jersey. It broke up the group. And then, of course, they call me to the lieutenant's office. They get right in my face. One of them shouts, the only reason you weren't on that bus to another prison

[50:33] is because we didn't see you on the cameras going up to South 2. South 2, it's all pedophiles up there. I don't go to South 2. What are you out of your minds? And then that was it. They knew they couldn't touch me. But in the end, it got rid of Ken and that made the rest of my time at Loretto that much easier. In the next episode, the pen is mightier than the sword, mightier than a bunch of corrupt prison officials. Anyway, thanks as always for listening. And I really mean it. Every time you listen, you like, you review, you share, you comment.

[51:06] It helps us. It helps us with the algorithm and it makes us more and more popular and accessible to a broader audience. So thank you very much. Until next time, I'm John Kiriakou. Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz. Costart and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast. And John Kiriakou, Alan Katz and Nick Mechanic are its executive producers.
