Title: Ex-CIA John Kiriakou — War On Whistleblowers: The High C
Show: The Ripple Effect Podcast
Date: 2026-02-27
URL: https://youtu.be/OtvG1MS2pAQ
Duration: 57:00

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[00:11] [music] I believe in the ripple effect. Heat. Heat.

[00:56] >> [music] [music] >> What's up? What's up? Another episode of the Ripple Effect podcast. Of course, I'm your host, Rick the Apprentice, also known as Ricky Vance, and a great great episode for you today. Today we have returning guest, CIA whistleblower, author, researcher, podcaster, and sincerely one of the nicest people I've ever met, John Keryaku. If you're new to

[01:29] the Ripple Effect podcast, you definitely did not catch last time John was on the podcast because I think it was back in 2017, episode 129, which is crazy because I'm in the 500s. And since then, he's been on Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Danny Jones, Pierce Morgan, and many other large shows. And I couldn't be happier about his recent success. His new podcast, Deep Focus, is also killing it. And I have a soft spot for one, people who came on the show years ago

[02:02] before I really had a platform and a large audience, but also a soft spot for whistleblowers. Much like John, most of the time just for trying to expose something that you don't think is morally right or legally right, your whole life is ruined. And it takes courage to risk just about everything to expose some injustice. And I know many of us think that we would do the same thing if we're in the same position. But when you have a family, when you have bills, when you have people who depend on you, or maybe you just have a job,

[02:34] that everything is going well and you don't want to stir things up. A lot of people wouldn't risk all those things to become a whistleblower, especially when historically they have not been treated very well. As always, if you want to learn more about my guests, go in the show description, find links to their website, their Twitter, their podcasts, and much more. And because this is a show with a whistleblower, I wanted to highlight some other amazing shows I've done in the past with people who had the courage to speak out and put everything on the line to expose injustice.

[03:05] Recently on episode 504, I had Peter Facelli who was a whistleblower for the Operation Fast and Furious. During CO, I had Brooke Jackson on who is a Fizer whistleblower exposing the fraud in the Fizer studies for the CO shots. I had also Aaron Marie on episode 309 and she was a whistleblower from the New York hospitals. And if you go way back in the ripple effect podcast archives, you'll find a episode with Abraham Balden, episode 55. He was the first

[03:36] African-American Secret Service agent and a JFK assassination whistleblower. I've also had Thomas Drake on episode 145 and he was a NSA whistleblower. He was in a great frontline documentary called The United States of Secrets. I highly recommend you guys checking it out. Thomas Drake also inspired Edward Snowden. Edward Snowden had a famous quote where he said that if there was no Thomas Drake, there would be no Edward Snowden, highlighting how influential him speaking out was. I also had to

[04:07] Google whistleblower Zack Vory's on on episode 255. He was also on project Veritoss. And one of the most interesting stories in whistleblowers I ever had on, mostly because I wasn't too familiar with the story was Michael Susan. And he was the UN oil for food whistleblower. There was a great movie called Backstabbing for Beginners, which highlights his whole story. And I actually talked about Michael on my podcast with John Kiryaku, but I completely blanked and forgot his name,

[04:37] so my apologies for that. But I highly recommend you guys checking out the movie Backstabbing for Beginners. It's a great movie. You're going to have a hard time believing it's based on a true story. And according to what Michael says, the only thing that is fake in the movie was the fact that the actual story is even crazier than the movie, but they couldn't fit it all in the film. And if you want to check out that episode, that was episode 174. And the oil for food scandal was after 9/11 when we invaded Iraq. We were supposed to oversee the

[05:08] oil production and make sure that the profits from the selling of Iraqi oil was going back to the people of Iraq and it wasn't happening. So very unique and interesting story and before I get into this amazing conversation with John Kyaku and it is a amazing conversation. We get into a lot of rabbit holes that John typically isn't asked about. So, this is a fun discussion. But before we get into that, let me remind you this is a value for value show. As you guys heard in the intro, I've been doing this

[05:38] for a long time. I've interviewed what I think are many interesting and important historical figures and whistleblowers, and I've given them a platform to share their story. So, I hope that you guys think I have given some value back to the universe. And if you do think I've done that, please consider giving some value back. It doesn't have to be financial. Of course, you can rate, review, comment, do all those things to help the algorithms favor a show that it's typically suppressing due to the content and conversations we have. Of

[06:09] course, if you are in a good financial situation, feel free to send a onetime donation via Venmo or PayPal. You can support us monthly on Patreon. You can get some cool merch. We have cool logos, designs, kids clothes, hoodies, t-shirts, much more. Check out the ripple effect podcastmerch.com or go to my website the ripple effectpodcast.com to find a link to the merch store and also links to our sponsors. Opus Clips AI clip creator is one of our sponsors. So if you're a content creator, check out Opus Clips. Use the link in the show description. And if you're looking to

[06:40] learn some new stuff, network with a freedom-minded community. Check out my other two sponsors. One is Richard Groves a University of Reason and autonomy courses. And the other one is the Scott Horton Academy, who is one of the smartest geopolitical people out there. And that's about it besides remind you guys to check out Theory 6 Music, which is my solo music project. If you like the music you hear on the podcast, check out Theory 6 Music. You can find it on any of the platforms that you can stream music. And now off to the conversation. Enjoy my conversation with

[07:10] John Kiryaku and I'll talk to you guys on the next one. Peace. >> [music] [music] >> What's up, John? [music] Sorry about the the weight. >> No, no, that's okay. That's okay. I had computer problems last week myself. [music] Very, very frustrating. >> Yeah, it's it seems to be I I don't know. Maybe the more [music] interesting the guess, the more more likely I seem

[07:41] to have them. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's what I'm going to go with. Uh, but thank you so much for for coming back on. It's been a long time since last time we spoke and since we spoke, you have done tons of interviews and I love the fact that your story is getting out there for people who might not be familiar with your story. Has been a few years since last time you've been on. Could you give them just a rough background? >> Sure. So, I was born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. Grew up in Newcastle, Pennsylvania, about an hour north of Pittsburgh. went to school at the George Washington University for

[08:13] both undergraduate and graduate and was recruited into the CIA by my graduate school adviser who was an undercover CIA officer. Um, spent the first half of my career at the CIA as an analyst working on Iraq. Then made what at the time was a very unusual move to counterterrorism operations. Uh for the second half of my career, I served in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Athens, Pakistan, and New York at the United Nations.

[08:44] Um I was the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after 9/11, led a series of raids that resulted in the capture of Zan Abadin Muhammad Hussein, known as Abu Zubeda, who we believed at the time was the number three in al-Qaeda. He was tortured mercilessly. I was asked if I wanted to be trained in the torture techniques. I was the only one of 14 people asked who declined. And in 2007, I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program. In an interview with

[09:15] ABC News, um the Bush administration decided that I had not committed a crime. uh the Obama administration uh in the form of John Brennan asked the Justice Department to secretly reopen the case against me in 2012. Then the Obama Justice Department prosecuted me and uh I ended up going to prison for 23 months, something that I would do again today if I had the opportunity uh because it was the right thing to do. And um I got out of prison 11 years ago

[09:48] and I've become a journalist, author, commentator, columnist, podcaster, whatever. Um professor at the end of the day, this was the right thing to do uh for a whole bunch of different reasons, not just for me, but for the country as well. And uh and I'm glad I did it. And I make no apologies or excuses. The world needs heroes like you who are willing to kind of expose what's going on. Too often we

[10:19] don't see that happen. And some of my most heart-wrenching podcasts have been with like Thomas Drake from the NSA and just hearing his story. >> Yeah. >> Tom Drake, Jeffrey Sterling. I mean, uh, Daniel Hail. I mean, sometimes I sit around feeling sorry for myself, but those guys really really took it on the chin as well. Especially, uh, Daniel Hail and Jeffrey Sterling. Yeah, it's not. Well, so I guess we we'll uh we'll quickly fast forward to uh some current events. Do you think

[10:49] that the fear of whistleblowing is the reason why certain things, even something like the Epstein files, like obviously there's all these people that are connected, linked, they're around these circles. I have a hard time believing that there's not even if you're not directly involved, that there's not whispers of like, hey, do you know what these guys are doing or do you know what this guy's up to? It seems like every time a story becomes public, all of a sudden when it's safe to say that you kind of knew, that's what

[11:19] happens is all of a sudden everybody comes out of the woodwork and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, well, I I did know about this or I did hear what like do you think the fear of what could happen to them is what suppresses these stories for so long?" >> I do. Uh, one of my lead attorneys said to me one time, um, "This case is so much bigger than just John Kuryaku." He said, "This the case really isn't about you. It's about frightening every other would-be whistleblower in the entire

[11:51] intelligence community so that they can say, "You see what happened to Kiryaku? He lost everything. You want that to happen to you, then keep your mouth shut." And that's why there are so few whistleblowers. You know, we've got a we've got a whistleblower protection law in this country, the Federal Whistleblower Protection Act, but intelligence community whistleblowers are not protected by its tenants. And so, I say this all the time. If you work for the Department of Labor or the Department of Agriculture,

[12:23] go blow the whistle. Best of luck. You're going to be fine. If you work for the CIA, FBI, NSA, DoD, you're going to go to prison and perhaps for a long time. So, you really have to give things serious consideration. >> Yeah, I had the uh I forget his name, but he was the UN oil for food whistleblower. The movie back >> uh No, I think it was >> No, not Scott Ritter.

[12:54] >> It was Michael. >> I know who you're talking about. Hunts. Um, >> no, his name was I think it was Michael. So, the movie Backstabbing for Beginners was about his story and when he got the position, he asked his higher-ups like what happened to the last guy before he had the position and he had like a mysterious death and you know, which obviously after what happened to him, he realized like, okay, you know, like there's something he was exposing something too. But those are the type of stories you you hear. I had Abraham Bald on. He was the first African-American

[13:24] Secret Service agent on a presidential detail. I mean, this guy was >> he was he was seriously wronged himself. >> Yeah. He's supposed to be a historic figure and instead, you know, his his stories >> Go ahead. >> He quite literally saved John F. Kennedy's life in Chicago in October of 1963. >> Yeah. I actually wonder if Abraham's still alive because when I had him on years ago, he was he is Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, >> he is. He's he's represented by uh by Tyler Nixon, a constitutional attorney who's a friend of mine. And Tyler is

[13:55] working very hard to try to get um Mr. Balden uh pardoned so that, you know, before he passes away, he's well into his 90s before he passes away, you know, to finally be vindicated. There was a lot of racism involved in the case against him as well. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he he talked about even back then how the Secret Service agents would talk about how if something happened to Kennedy, they wouldn't protect him because he was an N-word lover and they were saying this to him in front of him. So, I mean, he

[14:25] he dealt with a lot of stuff and his book, The Echoes from Daily Plaza, I think Mark Lane might have helped him write that or or he had some connection with Mark Lane. But yeah, he's when I had him on, this was during the Obama administration, he was trying to do the same thing. He was trying to get the word out there trying to get Obama cuz who else than another black historical figure to pardon him. But as you know, presidents don't typically uh help out. >> No, they don't. And Obama was particularly bad too about things like that. You know, I'll say Donald Trump, for all

[14:57] his faults, I've done a lot of research into this. Um most of the time presidents will issue pardons and commutations in this very brief period between elections and the inauguration. Right? So right after an election, especially a midterm election and before the inauguration when where there's no political fallout that can do damage to a president, that's when most of the the pardons and commutations take place. Donald Trump, and we can have a whole separate

[15:27] conversation if you want about the propriety of some of his pardons and commutations, but Donald Trump pardons people all the time. You know, there are old stories that historians have have written about where Abraham Lincoln would stay awake at night and pardon people by candlelight, especially uh deserters from the Union Army because he said that that no one should be executed for cowardice. And so he would stay up into the night just signing pardons.

[15:58] Donald Trump pardons people all the time like that. So I'm I'm [clears throat] kind of hopeful that you know the right thing happens eventually. >> And then there's also a lot of pardons that make you kind of scratch your head >> a lot. >> Why? Like is there some just some connection to family members or donors or what do you think it is? >> Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes I Yeah. family members, donors, uh, businessmen. With that said, Donald Trump Donald

[16:30] Trump has pardoned an inordinate number of African-Americans on draconian drug sentences. And it's because he genuinely believes that the drug laws of the 80s, the '9s, the early 2000s were racist in their construct and that people deserve relief. uh Kim Kardashian has gotten to him and she has convinced him that this is an ongoing problem across administrations

[17:03] in the Republican >> and um and he has acted based on her recommendations. He's also named a woman named Alice Johnson as what he calls the pardon zar. She's not the US pardon attorney. It's actually a very sweet appointment. Alan Johnson had a minor role in a minor uh drug conspiracy and because she elected to go to trial, she was punished and she

[17:34] was given 30 years in prison. This was a terrible miscarriage of justice. And so Donald Trump not only pardoned her, but he invited her to the White House. And then as soon as he won his second term, he appointed her as the pardon Zar. I've spoken with her daughter a number of times. And her mom does not have a government office. She does not have a government telephone, but she does have access to the White House. And so she's able to make recommendations as to

[18:06] people that she believes should be pardoned or should have their their sentences commuted. And I think it's kind of a a sweet thing that he did. There are a lot of stories like that of of people that he's pardoned that who's the um Oh my god, I'm forgetting his name. He he was trying to get pardoned for years. He was a part of the the deep web or the dark web. >> Oh, uh Ross Albrech. >> Yes, Ross Albrech. Yeah, he was another one. >> That was a very generous thing that Trump did. You know, it's funny. Two weeks before Ross was pardoned, I met with his mom and his sister and um and I

[18:39] said, "I've got to have you on my podcast because this this entire story is so sickening and it's such a miscarriage of justice." He got like life plus 75 years, some draconian sentence. And you know, they're wearing pardon Ross t-shirts and they've got hashtags and they've got literature and all kinds of stuff. They're trying to hit as many podcasts as they can and then boom, Trump pardons him. And I was like, "Wow, there's there's hope for me too then."

[19:11] >> Yeah. I I met his mom at the Red Pill Expo, I think in 2019 in Harford, Connecticut. And uh she was good friends with Richard Grove from Tragedy and Hope and from the Grand Theft World podcast. And Richard's a friend of mine. So I got to meet her, talk to her for a long time. I mean, she was super sweet. And >> Oh, well, they they all are. or they're really sweet and and their hearts were really in it. >> Yeah. And being a parent myself, having two kids, like I couldn't imagine being out free, knowing my child is rotting

[19:44] away in a prison cell somewhere. And there's nothing worse than feeling like you can't help your child. Like that's kind of your one job is protecting your children. And when you can't do it, you know, like it's happened where like my kids have gotten hurt, right? And I'm like, "Fuck, I should have should have been there. I should have done something. I should have, you know, been more careful or whatever." And when they're in pain and you can't help them, it it's the worst feeling ever. And so, I couldn't even imagine the day-to-day pain she had and then fighting the government on on a day-to-day and trying

[20:16] to stay active and trying to make your pain important to them because a lot of times, you know, like we're just pawns in a bigger game. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think you're exactly right. And you know, this really points to a bigger problem in the pardon process. It's funny to me that Joe Biden's US pardon attorney is out there on TV just bitching all the time about, oh, pardons. He's just giving pardons to everybody. Yeah, maybe that's a good

[20:47] thing. You know, I'm going to throw some statistics at you because I feel very strongly about this. The US has 5% of the [clears throat] world's population. It has 25% of the world's prison population. Over the last 20 years, Congress has created 50 new crimes, not laws, crimes every year. For the last 20 years, that is a thousand new felonies. things that

[21:19] a year ago were perfectly legal that today get you into prison for 5 years at least. Are we really better off as a country by criminalizing everything? Dr. Harvey Silvergate, a professor of law at Harvard University, has a book that came out like 20 years ago that's still in print and still very relevant called Three Felonies a Day. And he argues that we are so overcriminalized in this country that the average

[21:50] American on the average day going about his or her normal business commits three felonies every single day. So if they want to get you, they're going to get you. And there's really nothing you can do to protect yourself. That's not normal. Other countries aren't like that. And so if Congress is unwilling to rectify their own errors, then maybe we need a president who's willing to pardon hundreds or thousands of people. I see

[22:22] that as a good thing. >> Well, one of my best friends, he's a retired detective now, but he I remember talking to him once about how would you rather let somebody go who's guilty or arrest somebody who's innocent? And he's like, I'd rather let somebody uh go who's guilty. And I'm like, why? And it he's like, well, because the guilty person will do it again and they'll get in trouble. But he's like, there's nothing worse than locking up somebody who's innocent. >> And Dick Cheney said on the record

[22:53] exactly the opposite, that he would rather lock up a hundred innocent men than to let one guilty man go when he was confronted about Guantanamo. But you're right. As a nation, the consensus among us should be that it's better to let a guilty man go than to incarcerate an innocent man. >> And I remember when I had Jessie Ventur on years ago, he talked about when he was a governor. >> He's wonderful. >> Yeah. He he he's awesome. And I had his son on Tyrell and But he he talked about how when he was governor, that was one

[23:25] of the things that he talked about was just like there's too many freaking laws, right? and he was trying to remove them or get rid of some old ones or or whatever. And his team's like, "By the time you actually make any progress in this," he's like, "You'll be out of office." He's like, "There's no changing this." You know, it's much easier to get a new law than remove a old law. And I mean, is that by design? Because you kind of highlighted a little bit, you can manipulate the system the more complex it is. It doesn't help the average person like you and I. It helps the the government. It helps the

[23:56] attorneys who know all the details and all the ways to manipulate the language and all that stuff. >> Yeah. Um, you know, let's let's simplify it down to its bare elements. What district are you running in if you think you can get elected by going out on the campaign trail and saying, "I want to make it harder to prosecute people." Come on. you know, we're a law and order country, whatever that means to any

[24:26] individual American. And so, we get wrapped around the axle that we have to be, you know, tough on crime. In fact, we're just tough on ourselves. I have a friend long time like 40 plus year professor whose wife um had a medical condition and they lost their health insurance at one point. There was there was like a strike at the university. The the payments

[24:56] weren't made. They lost their health insurance. She needed her medication. So she actually arranged for a friend of hers to get the medication and just give it to her and they got caught and she got prosecuted. Now this is like a 62year-old professor's wife and they prosecuted her. Now she ended up with 6 months of house arrest and humiliation. But did you really need to prosecute the 62year-old professor's wife because of

[25:28] a, you know, prescription fraud? Really? Are we a safer place because she's locked up in her living room for 6 months? Part of the problem, I think, is, and I say this all the time. I don't mean to be cynical, but I think it's it's really the truth. Prosecutors don't get promoted by not prosecuting you. FBI agents don't get promoted by not investigating you. And if they're going to investigate you, it by God, it

[26:01] better result in in charges because otherwise they're going to be reprimanded for wasting the government's time and money. And every US attorney and every assistant US attorney that I've ever met, and I lived in a neighborhood with five of them immediately around my house, they eventually saw themselves as congressional candidates, maybe a gubanatorial candidate, maybe a future US attorney, maybe, you know, an A-list law firm, you know, corner office

[26:32] partner. So, they're going to get there on your back whether you like it or not. And you're not going to be able to protect yourself. >> That's why I have no faith in the system when it's just I I have there's too many horror stories of people who just at the wrong place at the wrong time or pissed off the right person and then their whole lives are ruined. And >> everybody talks about now the government overreach with Trump and ICE and and all that stuff. But even some of the stuff,

[27:02] I mean, people just are so inconsistent with their views. It's like nobody had a problem with him basically trying to get locked up for felonies that were ridiculous, trying to get him in trouble for like some property value estimate that was, you know, all these ridiculous things. I'm like, >> dumb. >> I'm like, where where was the outrage when people were calling him a felon? Not because they actually believed he was a felon. He's no more a felon than any other past president, but because they just didn't like him. And the system >> Exactly. And the system's designed where if you don't like somebody, you can find

[27:34] something to get them in trouble for. >> That's exactly right. That is exactly right. And you know, while we're talking, I'm going to look for something that I wrote um that um that goes right to that to that idea. There's kind of a famous statement by by um the former attorney general under Franklin Roosevelt. His name was uh Robert Jackson. He later he later became

[28:05] a uh a Nuremberg judge and then an associate justice on the Supreme Court. Here's what he said. While the prosecutor at his best is one of the most beneficent forces in our society, when he acts from malice or other base motives, he's one of the worst. A sensitiveness to fair play and sportsmanship is perhaps the best protection against the abuse of power. And the citizen's safety lies in the prosecutor who tempers his zeal with human kindness, who seeks truth and not

[28:38] victims, who serves the law and not factional purposes, and who approaches his task with humility. Those are the words that we should live by. >> Yeah, without a doubt. And so to go back to obviously you got an inside look and behind the curtain look of like some of the the torture programs that were going on behind the scenes. When you hear about the Epstein thing, like how different is that than kind of what you saw, the fact that there are things going on behind the scenes in regards to

[29:10] blackmail or torture programs that could be suppressed from the public that the intelligence organizations could be involved in. And maybe there's more links to MSAD and CIA than we're even being seen. And then what's a likelihood that the majority of what we are being exposed to barely scratched to surface? Because I have a hunch that most of it's been destroyed or is not going to be released if there's any real evidence of

[29:40] of linking anybody highly ranked or exposing anybody in a powerful position. What what's your thoughts on all that? >> I I believe very strongly that nobody's going to prison over the Epstein uh revelations. Nobody. You know, we have these idiotic statutes of limitations of 5 years for felonies against children, sexual felonies against children. And if you can go 5 years without being indicted, you're off scot-free. There's nothing anybody can do to you. Um that

[30:12] is scandalous. I will say that I never saw anything like what we're seeing with Epstein when I was at the CIA. And in fact, in training very early on in my career, we were told that sexual exploitation just simply doesn't work. If you want to recruit a source and you want that source to be productive, the source has to like and trust you. You can't threaten someone or coers them. It's just simply not going to work. And in fact, in many cases, it spurred

[30:44] potential sources on to becoming double agents just to get back at you. Uh, with that said, terrible crimes were committed by Jeffrey Epstein and very powerful and important people around him and they're going to get away with it. The only place where they're not going to get away with it is the UK. You know, God bless the UK government in this case because they're investigating criminally uh Lord Mandlesson, Peter Mandlesson,

[31:15] the former uh British ambassador to the United States, former member of the House of Lords, former senior Labor Party official, Minister of Business Affairs, and uh the former Prince Andrew, now Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. Why? Not because they had sex with children, but because in this latest trunch of Epstein documents, it shows that they gave Epstein classified British government documents. In one case

[31:47] related to uh secret u economic negotiations, that's Mandel and in another case um documents from the department, I'm sorry, from the ministry of defense. Why in the world would Epstein have cared about receiving classified documents unless he was working for the Israelis? >> Yeah, I saw an interview with Alan Dersuitz on Pierce Morgan recently. >> I know he's the worst. And it's funny cuz he just kept saying he's like, "Oh,

[32:19] I want everybody to get in trouble if there's evidence. We just can't talk about people without any evidence." I'm like, >> as the guy who admitted to getting a a a massage while he's in his underwear from a 16-year-old girl, >> it's it's insane. And and the fact that >> needs to shut the [ __ ] up's problem. >> Well, it it just it's so amazing cuz he's like he kept saying, "Oh, I would have known if this stuff was going on because I kept telling him, "If you're working with intelligence, tell me cuz I'll get you the best deal this and

[32:49] that." But >> he told me that he and I debated. I'm sorry to interrupt you. debated each other on the Pierce Morgan show several months ago and that's exactly what he said and I laughed at him and I said are you seriously saying that if you had gone to the White House and said listen he's spying for a foreign country so you should give him a lighter sentence I said I would have I would have been prepared to see him hanging from a tree after being convicted on espionage

[33:20] charges you going to the White House and saying go easy on him because he's a spy for the Israelis. That's not a thing. >> Well, it's not a thing. And it doesn't logically make any sense cuz And then in the other hand, like soon in the same conversation. That's right. I do I do remember that video with you and uh Alan Dowitz and Pierce Morgan. He he uh >> we went headtohead. It was a smackdown is what Pierce called it. It's it's amazing that he still does these debates during co he had a a debate with uh on Patrick Bet David's show with RFK and

[33:51] got smoked and he's just >> People have to understand there's a difference between making points and being right >> and then just being good at debating. Being good at debating is he's good at debating. So he can come up if to a average person who's just casually listening, he might sound like he's he's one to debate or he's making valid points, but if you dissect what he's actually saying, he's just deflecting and really not giving you any real answers. >> That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. I was on Pierce

[34:23] again yesterday and um and David Boyce was one of the guests. and David Boyce and also an elderly guy but arguably one of the greatest criminal defense attorneys ever in modern times in America. And um he made a couple of points. First of all, he had a good laugh at Durowitz's uh continuing comments that uh he could have somehow gotten Epstein a better deal if he actually had been a Mossad agent. Of course, he was a Mossad

[34:54] agent and you're talking out of your ass. number one. Number two, um he said that Dersuitz's problem is that when it came to Epstein, he was far more than just Epstein's lawyer. He wants people to believe he was just Epstein's lawyer, but he was also Epstein's publicist, and he was Epstein's friend, and he was Epstein's guest in his underwear with a 16-year-old girl on Epstein's island. He was in over his head, and if he had any idea what was good for him, he would just stop talking.

[35:27] Well, that's the thing. And Pierce actually said it, and I'm glad he did because it's what I was thinking. He's like, "Well, you're so confident that he would just tell you everything, but yet when we're talking about all the underage girl stuff, >> you you claimed that he didn't tell you anything. He didn't you didn't know anything. So, it can't be both. It can't be he would have told you everything, but you know, he didn't tell you any of this other life that he was living, even though there's tons of evidence. whistleblowers to free who uh who passed away. Again, I'm not speculating, but

[35:58] it's not out of the realm of possibility that there's more to that story than meets the eye. Throughout history, everything from like JFK to 9/11 to OKC to you name it. Every historical event, there's been Yeah. Las Vegas, there's been some mysterious deaths and some some people who spoke out who were silenced. So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that's what happened. his infatuation with eugenics. He was impregnating kids and you look at the eugenics movement. I think it still exists. I think Bill Gates

[36:29] >> I agree. >> Bill Gates is a perfect example of it. I mean in one interview he talks about the overpopulation and how that's a problem. And then in another interview he's like I want to vaccinate the world to save people. It's like well you can't do both. You know it's like exactly >> and it's funny because everything's out there in the open. You look at the world economic form. The weird thing is uh like I had James Corbett on recently. we were talking about everybody was kind of a little surprised about his connection to the Santa Fe Institute and the trilateral commission. From your perspective analyzing all this stuff, I mean, do you think it's as simple as

[37:00] like maybe like the torture program where it was just about getting intel or do you think something darker is going on? >> That's a tough one. Uh, my own gut tells me something darker was going on. That it wasn't just, you know, committed people doing terrible things, but for the, you know, for the right reasons. I I don't I don't believe that's the case. I think that I think that it was something far

[37:31] darker. And I think that what we have seen trickle out over the last several years um has confirmed that a lot of people, a lot of very important people, very wealthy people thought they could get away with something terrible and are now being outed. Again, I'm going to say the the shame is that there won't be justice for these victims. Uh

[38:01] the shame is that these important people aren't going to prison and many of them should be hanging. You know, Prince Andrew, what a monster. The guy's a monster in addition to being a pervert and he should pay a price for that. So many others should as well. Galain Maxwell is another one. You know, this is a complaint I've had in in the last over the last several months. There is an internal bureau of prisons

[38:31] regulation that forbids anybody convicted of a child sex crime from serving their sentence in a minimum security work camp. Galain Maxwell is in a minimum security work camp. And she was transferred there on Donald Trump's orders after she agreed to um meet with investigators. Uh he didn't have to do that. Now, the BOP can't put child sex uh convicts in

[39:02] maximum security penitentiies or medium security prisons because they'll be killed. But you also can't put them in minimum security work camps because at work camps there are no bars on the windows. The doors are unlocked. Prisoners are free to come and go as they please. They're just on their honor not to abscond, not to run away. Most of them work, you know, in town as janitors or gardeners or whatever, but that also gives them access to children. And that's the whole point. They're

[39:33] supposed to be punished. Society needs to be protected from them. And Galileain Maxwell is living an easy life in a minimum security camp. >> Yeah. It It's wild. And that's the way it's handled in every country. Jimmy Seville was covered up for a long time. You have >> a long time. >> The beast of Belgium is another crazy story in in my country in Portugal. Kazapia scandal. It was a orphanage similar to like the Franklin scandal. It

[40:04] was an orphanage that was used to traffic children that nobody would look for. I mean, it's like the saddest stories ever. And it's all covered up by the highest ranked politicians, by the elites, and it it just over and over again it's the same story. And then you see it everywhere. I think there's a attorney that went like missing before the Penn State scandal was publicly exposed that people think could have been some link to him investigating that. The Dennis Hasser story. I mean, you see in the with the Olympics, right? The gymnastics coach, right? The the

[40:35] gymnast coach, he was >> Larry Larry Nar, >> Peter Nygar in Canada, the fashion designer. A lot of people don't know about that story, but Peter Nygar, he was another guy very intrigued with like eugenics and like spreading his DNA and all all these weird things, impregnating young girls. It's wild. Alex Jones says it, Candace Owen says it, which seems to be true. And it's hard to believe when you watch movies like Eyes Wide Shut that behind the scenes, these secret societies of the Bilderbergs and Skull

[41:06] and Bones and Bohemian Grove and whatever secret society you can come up with that they're all sickos. There always seems to be a link between them and child trafficking or pedophilia. And I I don't know exactly why. I I know it's kind of a a dark question to ask, but like do you do you think it is like some occultism spiritual crazy worldview that there's trying to tap into something? Because I you look at Hitler, Hitler was into oultism. It seems to be

[41:39] like this recurring theme with the elites trying to tap into something trying to find some fountain of youth or something. But it seems to be consistent throughout history. >> You know, I'm I'm frequently asked that question. And it's a good question. It deserves it deserves research and an answer. I will say that it was not that was not my experience. Now with that said, in the 1980s and the 1990s, it was very well documented that there were a

[42:09] couple of senior officials at NSA and in the Pentagon who were members of the Church of Satan. One was a major who went on to, you know, go public and he wrote a book about it and he was interviewed in in articles and he was a bonafide member of the Church of Satan. But it was never my experience that that was more than just a couple of, you know, oddballs. I think what we're seeing is, you know, the the ultra elite, they're not like you or I.

[42:41] They really believe they can get away with anything until they can't. And I think this is one of those rare occasions where they got busted. Again, they're not going to get prosecuted. But now you've got a member of the vaunted Pritsker family resigning from his corporate CEO job in the hotel industry. You've got Mayor Bass of LA calling for the resignation of the chairman of the US Olympic Committee because he's been implicated. Just two

[43:12] days ago, uh Katherine Remler, the former Obama White House counsel and now the general counsel of of Goldman Sachs had to resign because she and Epstein exchanged, you know, 1,200 emails in which they were loveydovey and and she tried repeatedly to set up a lunch for Epstein with CIA director John Brennan. So yeah, they they finally got caught and even if they can't be prosecuted, I think the least we could do is make sure that their reputations are ruined

[43:43] because there has to be a cost that comes with committing violent and sexual crimes against children. I but I don't think anybody will ever get in trouble because I I think the problem with this topic and a lot of these topics is that it doesn't just expose one party, it exposes all the parties. It exposes everybody. And that's why these things can go under the radar for so long. And that's why there aren't more whistleblowers because they all have friends that would be linked to

[44:15] it. They all have donors, people that they're connected with that would be exposed. And that's the thing that's like the most intriguing is like Lex Wexner for example, >> multi-billionaire >> giving Epstein the power of attorney over like all his stuff, his finances, and yet this is a guy who never went to college, got some job at the bar family, got him a job at that that school in New York, had some a reputation of being a little too friendly and making the kids feel a little awkward. So, there's some

[44:47] some stuff going on there. and then out of nowhere becomes super rich, super influential, super in with all these and there's like a it's like there there's like a part it's almost like when they talk about like the story of Jesus like you go from like the baby to being the Messiah and there's like a little blurry part of his history. It's kind of like Epstein like there's a a part of his story that just seems like a giant leap >> and there's just a part missing. I mean, I'm sure you've thought about this and and you've looked into it a little bit.

[45:17] What do you think happened throughout that part? It's hard for me to understand. Is he the tail of the snake or is he the head of the snake? Is he just a piece to a bigger puzzle? Or is he actually the head of the snake that is connecting all these groups together and connecting all these people together? Or is he just a pawn and there's somebody higher than him? Because it does seem like at some point it it's starting to look more like he had more influence than the people he was linked to. >> Yeah. Right. How crazy is that? I I was

[45:48] just on a an Indian um news show an hour ago and we were talking out about this very issue when Les Wexner hired Les Wexner, the richest man in the state of Ohio who owned, you know, the limited and Victoria Secret and all these different women's clothing stores. uh when he hired Jeffrey Epstein to be his tax advisor,

[46:19] Epstein was a guy who had never graduated from college and was teaching seventh grade substitute math. That's the guy that the richest man in Ohio, a multi-billionaire, hires to advise him on taxes. Or they were sleeping together, which less Wexner has never answered. There was there was a long Vanity Fair expose about this a year or two ago.

[46:51] Um Epstein had this he had this hold over people. I mean even after his conviction you've got a pedophilia conviction and still you know you're being fedded by the most important most powerful most prominent people in the world. I mean, Steve Bannon right up until until Epstein's death, Alan Dersuitz, one of the most important

[47:23] influential constitutional scholars in American history, and still they just kind of throw themselves at the feet of Jeffrey Epstein. It doesn't make any sense to me. At the same time, I I wonder if I wonder if there's always somebody higher up the food chain. I believe in the Epstein case there was and I believe strongly that it was Mossad. But to what end?

[47:54] Like is is the intelligence that you're going to gather from Bill Gates and Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew and Peter Mandlesson, is it really that important in your ability to make policy and run your country that you're going to risk this? It must have been. You know the Danny Castillo story, right? I mean, it's just all these conspiracies. Are you know Danny Castellero? No. >> Oh, you never watch American what is it called? American Conspiracy. The octopus conspiracy.

[48:25] >> I've flipped through the channels and I've seen it a couple of times. >> Yeah. The the American uh what is it? The octopus murders. The I >> Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. The octopus. Danny, you know what? I I know a guy who whose story was told in one of those episodes and I know him to be a pathological liar. And that's why I kind of skipped all that because I thought, eh, if he didn't even do his due diligence, you know, for this clown serious. >> Well, you know, Gary Webb, right? Oh yeah. In fact, I was the script adviser

[48:55] on uh Kill the Messenger. >> Oh, that was a great movie. >> Yeah, it was well done. They did a fine job. >> Jeremy Rener, a lot of big actors and actresses on it. >> I was promoting the crap out of it because I'm like, "Finally, somebody's telling this story." Typically, you could find like YouTube little short documentaries, but I'm like, "This guy was a hero." But Danny, >> you know, let me interrupt you. Let me interrupt you really quickly. Um, when I was arrested in January of 2012, I was in the process of reviewing the

[49:26] script, like the second draft of the script, and the FBI seized all my electronics. When we finally got everything back in Discovery, they had taken the script and they stamped top secret at the top, the bottom, and both sides of every page. It was 120 page script. And I went back to the Justice Department and I said, 'You know, this is a Hollywood script, right? I didn't write this. It's not classified just cuz you say so. These people that

[49:57] wrote it didn't have access to classified information, unless you guys are trying to hide something, but they're not liable to to follow your arbitrary classification. And so I just went forward with the script. And you never got in trouble? >> No. >> Well, that's that's kind of what I tell people all the time. I'm like, a lot more conspiracy theorists, quote unquote, would be sued if what they're saying was incorrect. There'd be a lot

[50:28] more lawsuits. When you look at like the Clinton Chronicles, the Meta Connection, all these old documentaries that talked about the Clintons and Barry Seal flying into Arkansas, he's linked to the Freeway Ricky Ross story. Yeah. I >> I've had Freeway on years ago. But the Danny Castillo story is interesting because it's about the promise software and that whole story and he's the one who exposed that whole thing with the promise software. The US was selling it to their allies and then there's a back door where they were spying on the people they're selling it

[50:58] to. They kept the software and then didn't pay for what the guy is the guy's name who owned the company. The Octopus murders is a is a great documentary and it goes into Danny Castro's story much like all these other stories. He had a very mysterious death. He committed suicide of course cuz they always do just like all the guys who come up with alternative energy and the water powered car and and cancer cures and just go down the list of mysterious deaths. How many coincidences before you stop

[51:29] calling it a coincidence? It's kind of crazy. And then you look at like the elites. I mean, we talked about potentially Epstein and Lex Wesner. Edgar Hoover, he used to dress like like a woman. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was a drag queen. >> He's a drag queen. I'm convinced that Breijit Mcronone is probably a man. You [laughter] know, there's like I don't know, man. There's there's a lot of mystery there. And the thing is, where do you draw the line of like, no, that's going too far. I mean, we're literally exposing child trafficking, satanic stuff, satanic rituals. I don't know. I

[52:00] mean, I'm I'm one of those people. I'm like guilty until proven innocent. And from my perspective, it's like you've gone to the point where like I've seen so many crazy things become uncovered and having fire where there's smoke that I'm like I'm not going to discredit anything until I really do some serious research on it. But it seems like the people at the highest levels are all a little bit kooky, all a little bit crazy. You look at like P. Diddy and who was it that they think uh groomed him? H there was he had a groomer too, but really Yeah. Uh Clyde Davis, they you know

[52:31] Davis. >> Yeah. If you go down the P. Diddy rabbit hole, you see it in all these industries where there's like groomers. I mean, you look at Bieber. You look at how many of these child musicians that grew up with Diddy are mentally stable. They're all crazy. I mean, look at go down the list of like anybody who became a famous singer at a young age. They're all mentally messed up. You know, Britney Spears, whoever, you know, I can't even I'm having a brain fart right now, but there's just endless amounts of Bieber's a perfect example of it. The brother of um Was it Backstreet Boys or Ins Nick

[53:03] something like he >> Yeah. >> his uh his brother committed suicide. >> What about Manudo? You know, I mean, every one of those poor kids was abused. >> Yeah. And you look at the Nickelodeon documentary, you look at like >> Nickelodeon's another one. >> Yeah. Seems like it's wild, man. I know uh in the Jewish community, camps are a big thing, right? Like they send their kids off to a camp for like a month or whatever, weeks at a time. I could never do that. And you look at every story, it's always the person you least expect

[53:34] who's the predator, right? I'm Portuguese. I was raised Catholic, but like the stories of like taking these these monsters. I think it was the Catholic church that put one of them at a deaf school. So, and then the the kids couldn't basically turn them in. It's like who like how h how do you like how do you how do you hear these stories and not believe that evil exists? And that's the thing during co people were making eye contact with evil. I can't explain this by just saying they didn't know or

[54:07] it was accidental. Like people are purposely harming people and having zero remorse because of it. >> Yeah, I think that's right. We have a long way to go to make this right. >> Yeah, it it it is a long way to go. I know I've taken a lot of your time. You're a very busy man. For people who are listening to >> talk to you. >> Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to reconnect hopefully in the near future again. And for people listening and you have done some amazing interviews. You're on Rogan recently. You I know you've been on the Danny Jones podcast. I believe you've been on a bunch of big shows. You've

[54:38] become kind of a bit of a regular on Pierce Morgan, which is awesome. So, if people want to keep up with your work, you have a Substack, a podcast, a website, anything you want to promote, please do. >> Thank you. Thank you. I do have a Substack um John Kuryaku. I've also got uh three podcasts every day, Monday through Friday with Ted R. I do one called uh Deep Program on YouTube and Rumble. I've got one that drops twice a week on YouTube called Deep Focus. That's kind of my big one. Well, that's my most substantive one, but I've got one now called John Kuryaku's Dead Drop

[55:10] on Apple Podcast that much to my shock over the last four weeks has become the number eight podcast in the world. I'm not even really sure how that's happened. [laughter] >> That is awesome. [gasps] but it's happened. Um, so yeah, they're all out there. Thanks for asking. >> Yeah, I'll put all those links in the show description. I did just it was funny because I was just going to ask you about that one because I just saw it pop up just looking some stuff up on you and then I'm like, what is this podcast? I'm like I thought you already had a podcast. So that's that's cool. And is

[55:40] that >> Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, a buddy of mine who was the creator of Tales from the Crypt on HBO, he and I wanted to do something together and so we just came up with that. I just, you know, I'm telling stories and it's it's just taken off. I I happen to be in Dubai right now and I had a meeting this morning with a crown prince and the first thing he said to me was, "Love the podcast." I was like, "Oh, got to be kidding me." >> That is that I think he I I there's a little clip from like my first podcast from 2013 where I was telling my

[56:12] co-host, I'm like, "Podcasts are the future media." >> They are, man. >> Yeah. And he didn't get it. Well, I mean, think about it. Everything on TV, on newspaper, online is trying to sell you agenda. Well, you can only fake it for so long in a 1 hour, two hour conversation. You're hearing organic conversation and people they they have a desire for that. They have an appetite for that and they're not getting it anywhere else. So, I think that's why people are attracted to people like yourself who are very open and honest and have these amazing experiences they can share with the public. So, it it's

[56:43] awesome. Well, hey, >> I appreciate it. >> We'll keep in touch. I'll send you links to the show once it's up and live. Good luck with everything even though you apparently don't need it. You're doing quite well. Uh but uh and [music] safe travels. >> Thanks so much. Good to see you again. >> You too. Thanks, John. Take care. I believe in the ripoff.
