Title: Ex-CIA, John Kiriakou Opens Up About the CIA's Deep State Ties and Political Influence
Show: The Carlos Watson Podcast
Date: 2026-03-02
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGfCnX_ZpQ8
Duration: 34:45

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[00:00] I thought when I met my first wife in Greek wedding in Warren, Ohio, that would be good luck. Hey, right? And it wasn't. It was a curse that's lasted all these years. &gt;&gt; Oh, no. My oldest son was 6 years old at the time. He's sitting on the floor next to me watching me shave. And then he says to me, "I told [music] Mommy she shouldn't kiss Uncle Stelios on the lips. She should only kiss you on the lips, and she told me to mind my own business." I felt like I had been electrocuted, and I kicked the bed.

[00:30] And she says, "What?" I said, "Who the is Stelios?" [music] And I said, "I'm going to leave before I do something that I'm [music] going to regret for the rest of my life." Physically seeing red, like everything momentarily was a shade of red, and I thought, "I'm I'm going [music] to lose control of myself." The only fight I've ever been in in my entire life. CIA actively [music] seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies after 9/11.

[01:00] Everybody went nuts. We were the good guys. We had been wronged. We were going to take revenge. And you're either with [music] us or you're against us. And if you're against us, then get out. Do you think that the CIA at any point was trying to take out Trump? Not physically, no. I don't. Hey guys, it's Carlos Watson. Hey, my sisters and my friends and I are starting a wonderful new company. It's called Rose [music] Rose Media, but it's not just about podcasts. It's about community. It's about starting something big which

[01:30] includes a conversation. And you know we need help. And if you're open to it today, I'd be enormously grateful if you'd support us on Patreon. Whether you do 10 bucks, 25, or 1,000, [music] whatever you can do, we appreciate it. But we want to bring you magic, and we want to do it every single day. So support us today. Don't wait. Don't tell me that you're going to do it next week. [music] Do it today. Do it right now. Show us a little bit of love, and I thank you. He is back. Emmy Award winning journalist. He's interviewed presidents, rebels, [music] icons,

[02:00] thinkers. He is Carlos Watson. So you guys grew up in Pittsburgh, is that right? &gt;&gt; Yeah, just north of Pittsburgh. Okay, where? Uh it's called New Castle. Okay. Kind of Amish country. Okay. And Just made high school even worse. &gt;&gt; Really? So was it quiet? Was it &gt;&gt; It was very quiet. And how did they meet? Mom and dad. How did they meet? At a Greek wedding in in Warren, Ohio, which is why I thought when I met my first wife in Greek wedding in Warren, Ohio, that would be good luck. Hey, right? And it wasn't. It

[02:30] was a curse that's lasted all these years. &gt;&gt; Oh, no. Wait. And And so I was watching another conversation you were having. If you don't mind me asking, how did that end? How did the first marriage end? Um in April of 2000, we were living in Athens. Tough tough assignment for me because we were critical threat for for terrorism. Athens, Greece to be clear, not cuz there is an Athens, Ohio. &gt;&gt; Athens, Ohio, yeah. &gt;&gt; that's where your boy Joey Burrow's from. &gt;&gt; Yeah. Okay. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So

[03:00] um I'm shaving, getting ready for work. And my oldest son was 6 years old at the time. He's sitting on the floor next to me watching me shave. And I'm asking him, "So what are you going to do today? What are you going to learn today? You know, what what are you going to play at the at recess?" And then he says to me, "I told Mommy she shouldn't kiss Uncle Stelios on the lips. She should only kiss you on the lips, and she told me to mind my own business." I felt like I had been electrocuted.

[03:30] So I wiped the shaving cream off my face. I went into the bedroom. She was sleeping, and I kicked the bed. And she says, "What?" I said, "Who the is Stelios?" She said, "Where did you hear that name?" I said, "Who is he?" And then she said, "Don't believe everything a 6-year-old says." And I said, "I'm going to leave before I do something that I'm going to regret for the rest of my life." And so I got in the car, and I went to work. And um

[04:00] that afternoon, she started calling me, like calling me every 5 seconds. And I just would let it go to voicemail. Finally, the secretary came into my office, and she said, um "John, your wife's on the phone, and she's crying." I said, "Yeah, she she should be crying." And she said, "No, no, she was in a car accident, and she's injured." I was like, "For God's sake." So I She was calling my phone again, so I picked it up, and I said, "What?" And she said, "I had gotten in accident, and I'm injured, and the kids are

[04:30] crying, and so I drove up to the accident scene. And the car was She was first in in a left-hand turn lane to make a left. There was a guy five cars back. Greeks are very impatient drivers. She went to make the left. He came from the back and just T-boned her. And pushed the car up onto the sidewalk and demolished it, and she broke her wrist, and it was a big mess. So I go up there,

[05:00] and uh get out of my car, my fully armored, you know, BMW 540 with, you know, my two guns. And uh and I said to him, "What happened here? What What happened here?" And he gets all excited. He says, "Your Your Your wife, you know, she's a She's a whore." I said, "My wife is a whore?" And then he was in a coma for quite a while. 3 days. Oh, you had that that built up.

[05:30] All Any other day, I would have let it go. &gt;&gt; Yeah. Any other day. So I got arrested. Right. Oh, you did? Oh, yeah. And I How do you arrest a CIA station chief? No, no, I wasn't the chief. Um I I uh I said, "Look, I have diplomatic immunity." Yeah. So, you know, I'm sorry. I'm wrong. I admit I'm wrong, but I have diplomatic immunity. And they're like, "Okay, just sit in the cell." They left the cell door open, and they let me keep my gun, which was nuts.

[06:00] But then um they brought me in, and um the guy He was clearly concussed. He hadn't yet kind of, you know, faded out. That was at the hospital later, but uh he was sitting there in a chair, and he's just like You could see like the the birds tweeting, you know, the from the cartoons. And uh he says to me, "So what happened?" So I told the story. And then This is the police captain for

[06:30] the whole station. And he says to the to the guy, "Is that true? You called his wife a whore?" And he said, "I Yes. We got in an accident. She She yelled at me. I called her a whore." I did not know that it is a crime to call a man's wife a in Greece. And so they charged him. Wow. And I said, "Listen, I'm I I can't get charged cuz I have diplomatic immunity, but but in good

[07:00] conscience, you know, please don't charge him. I I beat him like almost to death." Um so they ended up dropping the charge. He filed a lawsuit against me later, but because I had immunity, it was just thrown out. And uh the only fight I've ever been in in my entire life. Wow. What do you think would have What do you think would have happened if you hadn't left the house that morning? Cuz remember the moment you said, "I'm going to leave here before I do something I regret." Yeah, so many

[07:30] different places where you could ask yourself what you would do in a certain circumstance. Was that a moment for you? Like like if you had stayed there, do you think you could have crossed to the other side? &gt;&gt; I think it was possible on that day. I was so I remember like physically seeing red, like everything momentarily was a shade of red, and I thought, "I'm I'm going to lose control of myself. I better leave."

[08:00] I remember my first operational boss telling me, "As a general rule," he said, "never lie to medical, finance, or security. They'll put you in prison. Never lie to me. I'll put you in the hospital." &gt;&gt; [laughter] &gt;&gt; Wait. Wait. Wait. Medical, finance, and security. So So medical because you could have something serious wrong.

[08:30] Because maybe you've got a drinking problem or you're snorting lines on the side to keep the hours going or, you know, yeah, you've got you're going down some kind of spiral, and you don't want anybody to know. Interesting. And then finance? Yeah, you know, every 6 months or so, we would get this all hands email from the director, whoever happened to be director, saying, "One of your colleagues was arrested this morning by the FBI for misusing his CIA credit card. Let this be a warning

[09:00] to all of us, you know, blah blah blah. Never charge a prostitute to your CIA credit card." And if you're going to steal from the CIA, steal millions. Don't steal $200, and then you get 6 months in in jail? So that's what security will do to you. And then finance or finance is the same thing. The security is worried that you're going to go to the Russian embassy and say, "Hey, listen, I have a gambling problem. I need 50 grand right now, and I can make it right for you."

[09:30] Peop- Peop- People would sell for that little? That's what Aldrich Ames sold for. His first meeting with the Russians, he needed to pay off a $50,000 credit card debt. And so he gave up the identities of two of our agents, and they were both immediately executed. $50,000. But you assume if you're a CIA officer, official, analyst, spy, That seems too little.

[10:00] It It seems like you if to your point, if you were going to steal, you would you'd steal more. Or if you were going to negotiate with the Russians, you would get I I don't know what you would He ended up uh $2 million wealthier. 12 people were executed because of his information. He ratted them all out. And then um was so careless. He bought a $2 million house in Arlington, Virginia. He drove a Jaguar to work. Guy's making $70,000 a year

[10:30] with a $2 million house and a Jaguar. And then he was bragging in the office that he put an in-ground pool with a gazebo that he built. And everybody who worked in the knew he was drunk all day long. Like, "Where Where's this money coming from?" So, somebody reported him to security. The problem then was that security uh sent a file to this 27-year-old kid who sat on it for 18 months while Ames continued to spy for the Soviets.

[11:00] And then drove over to his house and said, "Wow, that's a really nice house." And then that was it. Finally, there He He That means he let multiple people get executed. Mhm. Yes, he did. It was on his watch. Mhm. And then there was a woman named Sandy Grimes who said, "This is ridiculous. Either we're going to do an investigation or we're not going to do an investigation." So, she did an investigation. And she found that he was making trips to Mexico City. And every

[11:30] time he would come back to Mexico City, he would make an enormous bank deposit. 100,000, 150,000. Remember, this is before 9/11. So, there there's no anti-money laundering law that you have to report it to the IRS if it's more than 10 grand. So, she said, "He goes to Mexico City. He comes back. And then within days, he puts $100,000 in the bank. He's got to be spying for the Russians." She's the one who caught him. And then

[12:00] in what's called the hot wash, where they they go over like lessons learned, what did Where did we fall asleep at the switch here? Um she did that investigation. And she sent a paper to the director recommending that 27 people be reprimanded. Right? All through the chain of command. He had been a drunk for 20 years. And they just kept promoting him and promoting him and promoting him. So, he would be somebody else's problem. Well, then they made him the chief of counterintelligence

[12:30] for the Soviet branch. Oh, he He was a senior guy. &gt;&gt; was a senior guy. He was a GS-15. I thought he was a regular dude. &gt;&gt; a GS-15. So, he had the actual names of all of the sources that we had recruited that were penetrations of the Kremlin or penetrations of the KGB. And so the director, John Deutsch, decided that "No, he's not going to He's not going to

[13:00] reprimand or discipline these people. There's seven who he's going to put a very strongly worded letter in their files." And she's like, "You know what? This isn't for me." And she quit. 1993. So, so Deutsch, why do you think he did that? What Why do you really think he did that? Why do you really think he walked away from playing cuz when I hear you describe that, if you were at like a regular company, Yeah. Everybody would have been fired. &gt;&gt; Every Not everyone would have been fired, but but you would have acted on Aldrich Ames within

[13:30] like I'm thinking about now, me. Like if I had someone like that and it was that obvious, you You're too small. Like you There's too much that matters. And someone could really mess something up for you. So, you would I don't think you'd I don't think you'd let that go for a month. &gt;&gt; Well, and think of it this way. If you're a counterintelligence officer, let's say maybe you're even working in his branch. And you're like, "Hmm, our last 12 sources have been executed.

[14:00] There may be a problem here." Like, come on, people. What are you doing all day long? You know? When Robert Hanssen, the FBI traitor, who was also the chief of counterintelligence in the FBI, when he started ratting out sources and they started getting executed, as the chief of counterintelligence, he said, "It's that CIA guy, Brian Kelly." Brian Kelly being the chief of counterintelligence at the CIA. So, poor Brian,

[14:30] they put him on a leave without pay. They surround his house 24 hours a day with FBI agents. Other FBI agents go to Oregon where his daughter was working in a nursing home to tell her, "You have to get your father to confess because if we arrest him without a confession, we're going to ask for the death penalty." And Brian's like, "I don't know what's happening here. It's not me." And then it turned out it was Hanssen. How long did it take for that to get

[15:00] unraveled? A year and a half. Wow. So, what What is it about the director of counterintelligence role that makes a person particularly susceptible to flip? You have to be like so clean in your personal life that it it has to be you like epic, noteworthy. No drinking, no drugs, no gambling, no no speeding, no cheating on your wife. Literally nothing that can be used against you.

[15:30] Did you Did anyone ever try to flip you? No. And you know, you're trained to expect it to come. It turned out when when I was in the interview process, they asked me if I had ever had contact with somebody that I believed was a foreign intelligence officer. And I said, "I don't have any idea. I will say that I won a scholarship junior year to study in the UK. Um and I went to this um dinner party

[16:00] for all the people who had won the scholarship. And there was this young This was during communism. This There was this young like educational attaché from the Hungarian embassy. And the guy would not leave me alone. And I thought, "I must be You must be gay or something." But he gave me his his business card. And I said, "I think I still have that business card." So, this was like 3 years between when I met him and when I was going through the interview process. So, I gave it to security.

[16:30] And they said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's an intelligence officer. He was trying to get close to you early while you were still in college. So, then when you graduated, he could say, 'Hey, do us a favor. We'll give you a lots of money if you join the CIA.'" Oh, interesting. So, they try to catch people early for and then get them to join. &gt;&gt; Yeah. So, so so go big picture for me for a second. What are the five things that would

[17:00] surprise someone to know, given all the experience you've had in in the CIA, intelligence, the rest? And given that most of us only know it through movies and TV and maybe a little other stuff, what are five things that would truly surprise us to find out um that you know as someone who actually's been in intelligence? I'll try and come up with five. Uh right off the bat, I'll tell you, most everybody at the working level at

[17:30] the CIA is really, really smart. They want nothing more than to serve the country and to protect Americans. God knows they don't do it for the money cuz we never got paid anything. Um number one. Number two. They're all humans at the same time. And so, there are a lot of people who have problems. I'll give you an example. I worked for many years in the Counterterrorism Center.

[18:00] Now it's called the Counterterrorist Center. And uh one of the one of the group chiefs came up to me one day and he said, "Hey, can you do me a favor?" I said, "Of course." He said, "Can you go to Beirut this weekend to uh to do a meeting?" I said, "Sure. Well, why don't you send Phil to Beirut? He covers Lebanon." He said, "Uh I can't. He was psychovac'd." Which means he went nuts. He had to be returned. He's not quite, you know, not nuts yet. And so, he's just not allowed

[18:30] to travel. He needs to sit at a desk for another 6 months and be evaluated by the shrinks. And then when he's not nuts, may- maybe they'll let him go back to Beirut. Number two. Number three. Our very first high-threat operation in Pakistan that I did when I was there. This would have been in like February of 2002. We're strapping on body armor. We're loading our guns, you know, getting everybody set to go. And I said to this one guy, "Hey, Dan, what are you doing?

[19:00] Come on. Get strapped up." He said, "I can't go." I said, "What do you mean you can't go? We're all going. We have doors to kick down." And he said, "Nah, I I beat my wife. I can't carry a gun." Oh. Okay. Don't beat your wife next time. And then we we went and did our operation. We have a rule. If you're if you've got a conviction for domestic violence, you can't carry a weapon. So, what good are you to me

[19:30] in Pakistan when we're busting down doors to grab Al-Qaeda if you're a wife beater so you can't carry a gun? And they And they And they stuck to that. Mhm. What What else would What else would surprise me? What else about the way the world works would surprise me? What What Even if I think I'm a relatively pay attention thoughtful person. But what's going to surprise me and and maybe I'll even frame it this way. And I know you you've got five kids, is

[20:00] that right? Five kids. So assume that I'm I'm one of your sons or assume that I'm a close brother of yours and we haven't seen each other for 20 years and for whatever reason you're going to go away so we're only having one conversation. What are you going to tell me about the way the world works that like because you know I'm not going to figure out on my own or it's going to take me 30 years to figure out what I'm going to do. That's okay. But I but I want I want to hear it because again, you have an experience set not

[20:30] only with the intelligence agencies but including with intelligence that very few of us will ever have. And I also have um for a variety of reasons including my mom's battle with cancer and a few other things, I've come to not um I've come to not believe conventional wisdom in the way that I once did. Oh, yeah. &gt;&gt; And I've come to appreciate that I may be A looking in the wrong direction and B even when I'm looking in the right direction seeing the wrong things,

[21:00] right? And so I'm definitely on a journey to learn a little bit more and to hear a little bit more of the truth than maybe I have in the past. So if you were going to make the rest of us or maybe just make me a little bit smarter. You were prepping me for the rest of my life, right? I'm your son. I'm 21. You're prepping me for the rest of my life. This may be the only conversation we're going to get to have. So whatever truths you have, you're not going to get to tell me 10 years from now, 20 years from

[21:30] now. Like give me give me the stuff now. I would tell you that again, this is going to sound cynical so I apologize in advance. Tell you that it's been my experience that the world is usually not what it seems. Right? You can never get inside the head of another human being. You just can't. We may think we really truly know somebody. We don't. We never know what's going on. We never know what's going on in people's private lives. Um and so you always have to be wary and

[22:00] you have to be self-protective. The CIA, [music] I've said this a thousand times in the podcast but I'm going to say it again. The CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies. People not sociopaths. Sociopaths have no conscience. People with sociopathic tendencies do have a conscience. They do react in a polygraph exam. But

[22:30] because we believe we're the good guys, we're happy to work in legal, moral and ethical gray areas. But sociopaths easily slip through the the process because you can't trip them up on a polygraph. They have no conscience. So they don't react. That's the problem. Sociopaths slip through. Now, you know as well as anybody that

[23:00] that sociopaths are common among C-suite officials in companies. That's how they got to be CEO, CFO, COO on the backs of the people around them. They're not the nicest people in the world but they're not criminals either because they can they can self-regulate. Some people can't self-regulate especially when you convince yourself that you have the power and authority of the CIA behind you. You think you can get away with anything.

[23:30] And you can't. So there's a lot more criminality at the CIA than you might imagine. A lot more criminality. It's not just some idiot spending $200 on his CIA credit card to buy a prostitute. It's people carrying out real crimes. So so Tucker Carlson who I know you know, I know you're friendly with says that he's and I think his dad or someone was in in the intelligence said that he's come to believe that the intelligence community is actively

[24:00] undermining society. I've come to the same conclusion. Because now the CIA is weaponized against people that you know, don't fit the mold. Whether you're John who says, "Hey, wait a minute, you know, there's a law against torture and we probably shouldn't be doing this." Now prison for you. Or whether you're Donald Trump like, "Oh, we don't like this guy. We can't control him. Uh let's let's steal the election."

[24:30] What's happened? Do you think that the CIA at any point was trying to take out Trump? Not physically, no, I don't. &gt;&gt; Why why not physically? Have haven't we done it before? Well I've had a lot of conversations on this topic. But but let me ask you this because again, you are a super sophisticated guy.

[25:00] Like if I heard someone say that they released all the documents whether it's about Epstein whether it's about Kennedy whether it's about whatever. I don't really believe that they released all &gt;&gt; Just like I didn't believe it with Clinton, with Bush Bush two rather, with Obama. You know, Congress passed this law saying you have to release all the documents. Even Biden. But Trump was just so public about his

[25:30] desire to release the information. You know, like Hillary Clinton was with the UFO information. On my first day I'm going to sign executive order. We're going to know about the UFOs. I was like, "Okay, finally. Finally." Plus my God, 60 years had passed. And now after 60 years it's just too much. For people who don't know the story. Like give me give me whatever you want to call it the two-minute three-minute version and then let's dive into pieces of it. But so the kid from Pennsylvania comes to DC

[26:00] George Washington fulfilling kind of a kid's dream of being a spy. It sounds like he gets recruited to become a spy. Yes, in graduate school. He becomes a spy. Yeah, I got lucky. And so I remained in the Directorate of Intelligence which is the Analytic Directorate until August 1993. Then was given a legit State Department job because to make the senior intelligence service you have to do a rotation in the policy community which is either the White

[26:30] House, the State Department or the Defense Department. And you have to do a rotation in another directorate which is operations, science and technology or administration. So I did my rotation to state. I went to Arabic training for a year, mastered it because I always wanted to learn Arabic. In fact when I I finished Arabic and I went to Bahrain and the ambassador spoke Arabic. I I was so fortunate to work for this absolutely wonderful ambassador. This was David

[27:00] Ransom in Bahrain. Just loved the guy. And he said to me, "Hey, I've got a I've got a meeting with the Minister of Al-Qaf and Islamic Affairs. He doesn't speak a word of English. My Arabic's a little rusty." He says, "Can you come with me? Be my translator." I said, "Oh, I'd love to." So so we went together. And it was not a normal thing for the for an American ambassador to meet a Minister of Religious Affairs. But he just wanted to pay a courtesy call. How are you, Your Excellency? So nice to

[27:30] meet you. Your country's lovely. You know, we have good relations. That kind of thing. And so we went and I did the translation. And as we were leaving the Minister stops me and he said, "Your Arabic is excellent, young man." And I said, "Thank you, Excellency." And we got in the car and the ambassador said, "It it really is excellent." Yeah, and one time I I was in Yemen and and I flew back to DC and I thought, "Should I go to sleep? I'm just going to go home go to

[28:00] sleep." And I thought, "Nah, I'll go into headquarters and I'll just do my accounting." So I go in. It's like 10:00 in the morning and I kind of snuck in. So I'm in my cubicle. I'm just doing my accounting so I can get reimbursed and my boss sees me and he says, "Hey, I didn't know you were back." I said, "I'm actually not back. I just flew in. I just want to do my accounting and I'm going to go home and go to sleep." And he says, "Okay, well can you go to Sudan?"

[28:30] And I said, "What? I was just 1 hour from Sudan." I said, "When?" He goes 3:00. I said, "Oh, come on, man." Why? He said "Well, there's a walk-in and nobody speaks Arabic there right now and you got to go to Sudan." I said, "God, all right." I said, "Let me go home and do a load of laundry." So I did and then I drove back to the airport and then flew back to Sudan

[29:00] again. But you know I I liked it. I enjoyed it. It was exciting. And so you're rising are you on your way to becoming the director of the CIA? I wish. I mean I mean were you on that trajectory? Like would would someone reviewing the the rising young superstars have have tabbed you as one of the rising young superstars? &gt;&gt; No, that is a very very political position and there have only been three I guess directors over the years

[29:30] who were career CIA officers. Everybody else has been an outsider. A former FBI director, lots of generals which I think is always like historically been a big mistake. &gt;&gt; And why would they want generals? I don't know. You get four shiny stars on your shoulder and they think that you're Superman, you can do anything. And it was my experience that people became four-star generals by saying, "Yes, sir." You don't want somebody in that position to say, "Yes, sir." You want somebody in that position who can say, "Mr. President, let me tell you why that's a

[30:00] terrible idea." Right? You need somebody with the the wherewithal to stand up to the policy makers. So, it's so clear to me that you still love and revere the work that you did and that you were one of the fortunate people in this life who actually got to do something that they both dreamed of. &gt;&gt; I thoroughly enjoyed my career. Yeah, you you you enjoyed it. &gt;&gt; But after 9/11, everybody went nuts. They just went nuts. They acted like

[30:30] the law, whether domestic or or international, meant nothing to us. We were the good guys. We had been wronged. We were going to take revenge. And you're either with us or you're against us. And if you're against us, then get out. I want to do one last thing, rapid fire. Maduro of Venezuela. You know, I'm of two minds of Maduro. First of all, it's very bad form to just invade a country and snatch its leader and then, you know, kill 80 people and leave.

[31:00] It's very bad form. It's a violation of international law. It is not a violation of US law. We've had a law in the United States since 1985 allowing us to do exactly that, thanks to the Kiki Camarena case. Um I I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it. Maduro's, you know, not a not a nice guy, but this whole drug thing is grossly overstated. You want to invade a country, invade Mexico. That's where the problem is. Gaza. Ah.

[31:30] I I stand wholeheartedly with the people of Gaza. Um the Israelis have murdered and starved as many people as they possibly could. Listen, October 7th was a terrible terrible event. It was a terrorist attack perpetrated by a terrorist group, but your response can't be to kill everybody. Right? At least 70,000 people, almost all of whom have been civilians, and

[32:00] then mostly women and children. Okay, that's not a policy. That's genocide. And it's a violation of international law. And who should know that better than the Israelis? And where do you think this ends? I think with continued ethnic cleansing of Gaza. The policy is to drive them out, make them emigrate, and they don't care to where, just get out and let Israeli settlers resettle Gaza. Last question, your favorite book.

[32:30] It's It's a book that nobody's ever heard of. It's called How Can I Keep From Singing? Uh it's it's the biography of Pete Seeger, the the folk singer. Pete became, you know, besides my dad and my grandfather, Pete was the most important man in my life. It's funny. We we exchanged Christmas cards for years. And then when I got in trouble, he rallied to my to my support. And

[33:00] he said to me one time, "You and I have the We have the greatest differences in our backgrounds. Like what why What is it about me that has attracted you?" And I said, "Pete, you stood up to them. In 1958, you stood up to them. All you had to say is, 'On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer your question, Senator.' And you didn't. You said, 'Based on the

[33:30] First Amendment, I don't have to tell you with whom I associate.' Everybody's pleading the Fifth, he pleaded the First, and they sent him to prison for it. The It was overturned on appeal, but he wasn't afraid of them. And so, I wanted to be like Pete." Hey guys, that was a hell of a conversation. I mean, John Kiriakou was being super modest. He clearly is a guy who was a star within the CIA, on his way to becoming director of the CIA one day, and ultimately ended up with a very

[34:00] different life, life in prison, life in infamy, life restarting in many ways, but an incredibly wise and insightful and clearly skillful guy. As I told him later on, maybe one of the best five or six storytellers I've ever met, and I've met some really [music] good storytellers. Hope you enjoyed this. Hit us in the comments. Tell me what you thought about this and whether or not we should have more comments like this. Up next in the future, I've got a former KGB spy who's going to stop by the

[34:30] Carlos podcast. You're not going to want to miss that. See you soon.
