Title: Skinwalker Ranch, UFOs, USOs and Secret Projects
Show: Elizabeth Lane TV
Date: 2026-02-18
URL: https://youtu.be/AqY21KZDOzg
Duration: 53:00

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[00:00] I have two amazing guests and I think you're going to love both of them. You know Brendan from our previous projects and you definitely know John from CIA Declassified. So today we're going to talk about um some weird phenomenas, anomalies, technology, all of the best stuff that you asked for will be discussed today. So let me introduce Brandon Fugal, an author of the whole show or you produce it? >> Yes. So, I'm not only the owner of Skinwalker Ranch and have owned it since

[00:30] April of 2016. >> That's right. when I acquired it from the elusive billionaire Robert Bigalow. But uh I'm also the executive producer and creator of the hit uh docue series The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch as well as the spin-off series which is called Beyond Skinwalker Ranch which is currently airing episodes every Tuesday night uh 8 um uh 7 central on History and all of the the other platforms, Amazon, uh Hulu,

[01:02] >> Apple TV. So, we have been excited to unveil to the public the progress of our ongoing scientific investigation of what many regard as the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot on the planet. It was part of a Pentagon-f funded black budget program for a number of years with the federal government as a result of reports and evidence that there was a high frequency of UFO sightings, bizarre cattle mutilations, electromagnetic anomalies, and other

[01:34] phenomena. you know, they locked the the property down and and as of today, almost 30 years later, uh it remains under armed surveillance 24/7, 365 days a year. And I have the privilege of being the steward and the owner of this very unique piece of property. I am also the chairman of Collier's International's Inner Mountain region which is the largest commercial real estate operating company in the market and uh am involved in a number of other

[02:05] ventures and projects that have absolutely nothing to do with the >> ranch >> with the paranormal [laughter] and these topics but it's a thrill to be with you. >> Thank you so much. Yeah, most people don't know that you are actually a very accomplished businessman. They know you from the Skinwalker range but not that and you had the empire before, right? real estate empire way before you acquired the ranch. >> Yeah. I had no desire to ever reveal my identity to the public as the owner of this property. I represent hundreds of prominent commercial real estate

[02:35] projects in the inner mountain region. Um own projects myself and I frankly did not want my identity or my reputation associated with these topics to be candid. But uh you know four years into owning it secretly and funding it with millions of dollars out of my own pocket, I was essentially Jedi mind tricked by the History Channel and producers to um go public and to allow a docu series for the first time ever uh ever uh to allow a docuer effort to come

[03:07] in behind the gates and to document the very real ongoing investigation that continues to build momentum to this Okay. >> Crazy. >> Wow. >> John, you are a former CIA agent, officer, I should say. And uh you know, the CIA never gets involved with these cases, right? Rarely. >> Rarely. Rarely. And the involvement has been historical. >> All right. Well, first I want to start with our personal experiences before we dive into actual like, okay, what's going on here? Right. So, you had a good

[03:39] story and I want Brendan to hear because [laughter] >> I like to think I'm I'm the one of the most rational people that I know. Right. [laughter] >> Same. I'm with you. >> Yeah. Right. We're just >> just two guys. >> We're just trying to conduct business and [laughter] operate within a world that seems to have physical laws that are easily understood. >> That's right. >> That's right. And uh >> every 10 years or so, scientists say, you know what, Einstein was right about and then they tell us one of Einstein's theories. >> Right. >> Well, when I was 17 years old, my my mom and dad bought a restaurant in a

[04:11] neighboring town in western Pennsylvania in Amish country, western Pennsylvania. And so my dad and I used to work midnight shift on the weekends and uh we would drive from our home in Newcastle, Pennsylvania through Amish country to Sharon, Pennsylvania. It was about 20 miles and it's very very dark in Amish country. They don't use electricity. And so one Friday night at 10:30, I'm talking about 1981, I was 17 years old, and we're driving up

[04:43] Route 60 north, and we see a brilliant flash of white light. And we both look up in the sky. There's a second flash and then a third flash and then this orange trapezoid just lit up in the shape that you would say, you know, is stereotypical of a report of some kind of flying disc. >> Yeah. A UFO. >> A UFO. We pulled over to the side of the road. I said to my dad, "What is that?" He said, "I don't know." So, we got out

[05:14] of the car. We're standing there just staring at it. It's hovering, not making any sound at all. A guy pulls up behind us. He gets out of his car and says, 'What is that? >> Yeah. >> My dad said, 'I don't know. And then it just went at this fantastic speed. >> Yeah. >> Unlike anything I had ever seen before and it just vanished just like that. We stood there for a while thinking, is it going to come back? >> You know, is it going to do something, >> right? >> And then finally, we got in the car and

[05:44] drove away. And I said to my father, should we call somebody? Should we like call the cops or something? >> Yeah. >> And he said to say what? We saw a flying saucer and it flew away. >> Yeah. >> They'll think we're nuts. So, we didn't tell anybody until we told my mom the next day. But I I'll never forget it as long as I live. >> Oh my goodness. So, you're you're uh not just uh someone who has been brave enough to address these topics. You are an experiencer yourself. You've

[06:14] experienced it. >> Yeah. I hear some other people's u uh stories and experiences and I think, "Oh my goodness." No, mine's nothing like like theirs. Mine's not as exciting or as revoly, but it was enough to burn a place in my memory, >> you know, for good. >> Well, I'd have to disagree. The fact that it wasn't just you that you had you had witnessed, was it multiple witnesses? >> Yeah, there were three of us. >> Um, it's very similar to my own experience. You know, I bought the ranch, Skinwalker Ranch, as a skeptic.

[06:48] >> I had gone through a faith crisis of sorts in my life, and I had grown very skeptical of any claims dealing with the paranormal >> or the fringe. And I believed at that point in time that there was a natural prosaic explanation for for anything that was supposedly strange. And when the opportunity to buy the ranch was presented to me, I uh was very transparent with those who u who introduced the opportunity to me and even Mr. Bigalow and let them know I I

[07:18] fully believed that there was a natural explanation and that I was going to quickly debunk >> the claims with my own team of scientists. And for 6 months I owned the property and I myself flying in every month in my helicopter didn't see or feel anything unusual. >> Interesting. It just seemed like a strikingly beautiful diverse backdrop in the middle of this Uenta basin that is surrounded by thousands of acres of Indian tribal land. But 6 months into it, I had an experience much like you. I

[14:02] casually, and this had to be 197, I'm going to say six or 77. He said that as an F-18 pilot, they see these things all the time. He said there's a standard operating procedure where they document the sighting. >> It's classified and then they send it into the Pentagon where it just sits in some database somewhere. And he said you get used to it except when you see them come out of the water.

[14:33] >> He said that that would always panic him because he didn't know if it had spotted him and was coming out of the water. It went down to take a sample of the water. It's living underneath the water, >> right? >> He said, but he and the every other pilot would document every single one of these sightings. And we now know thanks to these wellplaced Pentagon leaks from what, two, three years ago. >> Y >> that they were all seeing these things and they were all documented. Absolutely. >> Why weren't it why weren't they coming

[15:05] out though? This is where people I'm a skeptic still despite all I believe you all. I understand. You know what I mean? >> I was a skeptic too. I thought it was all baloney myself. That's the problem with me. I I It's my problem. >> But okay, all these pilots, right? Come out. You blew the whistle on Bush and torture techniques of the CIA. By the way, he is brave when as you said. >> Yeah. It takes courageous individuals to to come forward >> at the risk of their reputations, their careers.

[15:35] >> Why do they do it? That's my question. All of them see it. >> Because it comes down to integrity. Either you're going to acknowledge and you're going to >> to be honest >> in what you know, what you have witnessed to be true or you simply are going to >> essentially be asked to be public plugged back into the matrix. It's kind of like that that movie The Matrix, which I love, which has become a key part of pop culture history, where people,

[16:05] >> you know, there's a certain individual cipher who ended up >> in the middle of the show. um betraying his his associates, including Keanu Reeves character, you know, Neo, where he he basically said, "Look, I just plug me back in. >> I I don't want to know reality. I don't care. Plug me back in. Make me make me someone famous, like an actor or something." Yeah. And and it was a really it was a I'm wildly paraphrasing, but I think most of the general public when it comes down to it, as much as

[16:36] they may be curious about these topics >> and they might may find them entertaining in the same way that we go to the megaplex to see a movie on the weekend and we like to be entertained, the reality is people do not feel comfortable with with really addressing topics that challenge their worldview or their paradigm. >> I think that's exactly right. At the end of the day, if anything, and that includes military personnel, that includes um our most decorated pilots,

[17:09] >> law enforcement. When when these people are faced with the reality of whether they are willing to go public with what they know to be true or whether they want to simp essentially be plugged back into the matrix >> and make sure that they get their 401k that they they have enough to take their families to Disneyland once a year >> and to be able to retire with their with their gold watch and be able to have time with their grandkids. Most people do not want to put their reality in

[17:41] jeopardy over acknowledging these topics. And I don't know that I blame them. I can't blame them because these these topics are sobering. uh the reality that we aren't alone in the universe, that there may be not only worlds of that number, but we may live in a cosmic zoo >> and be part of a very complex >> experiment >> is understandably terrifying to most people and most people can't handle it.

[18:11] >> They can't handle the truth. kind of like Jack Nicholson's iconic character as Colonel Jessup in a few good men where he where you know Tom Cruz's grandstanding is lieutenant caff [laughter] >> and and Jessup you know played masterfully by um Jack Nicholson says you can't handle the truth that the reality is I don't believe most of the public >> can handle the truth >> and that's why there is so much disinformation that's why there is an active effort

[18:44] to to discredit these topics >> and and that's been the rumored uh position of the Pentagon for many many decades >> that the public can't handle the truth. >> No, it's destabilizing. >> It's destabilizing. It would lead to panic >> and so it's best not to allow the truth. >> In a way, they are right. Look what happened during COVID. I mean, we were out of freaking toilet paper. >> Yeah. >> And people were storing milk. Milk. Milk. It's going to go bad.

[19:14] >> Well, what are you doing? >> Everyone was hiding in their basements hoarding water, toilet paper, and watching Tiger King >> and not questioning the science. We all essentially were just >> trying to get through >> that period of time, which was really um tumultuous. >> Can you imagine >> for some people the reality that we're not alone could perhaps I think have a destabilizing impact? I don't know. Well, I I've had my own experiences, but I remember thinking that exact thing

[19:45] when everything was happening to me >> and thinking, "Oh my god, oh my god, they're always here. They've seen everything. They're they're with us." And just that thought alone >> was like shattering to me. I panicked. >> Yeah. >> But Yeah. >> And that we're not in control. I I'll tell you the most sobering thing, >> the most humbling realization with owning Skinwalker Ranch is learning that we're not in control. >> See, that really bothers me because I'm

[20:17] a control freak. I Everything in my life should be controlled by me. So, you know what I mean? Like, how >> I'm not okay with that. >> We got to We got to send them to Lizzy, [laughter] >> right? I'm not okay with that at all. So okay well um let's for people who you know have ton of questions I think we owe them to to discuss everything. So you kind of answered the question already about the government but I was going to say you know you worked for like how many years now um before you

[20:47] retired and do you think that there could be a slight chance slight chance that uh we are seeing our own technologies just I mean we talked about DARPA you you probably know DARPA absolutely >> yeah like I mean they are 30 years ahead >> well Lockheed skunk works Northrup it's a fact that there are advanced aerospace programs that have been in existence for shady years give or take >> and those programs are in many cases they're what they call special compartmented access programs.

[21:18] >> Um there is a national security imperative associated with our defense and with protecting advanced technologies and and making sure that our way of life, our democracy is kept safe. And I understand the need for secrecy. Um the challenge is when when you see things that are so far beyond >> our capabilities or our current understanding of physics. Mhm. >> And even though President Eisenhower warned of a

[21:50] military-industrial complex and the rise of that military-industrial complex and and secrecy involved with that, um I I happen to believe in my interactions with high ranking officials that these topics even today remain a great mystery. and disturbing to many people because I don't believe that even the government has all the answers relative to the

[22:21] origin or the agenda associated with what we're seeing. You'd mentioned USOs, unidentified submerged objects. You look at, you know, objects and phenomena, aerial phenomena of unknown origin that are that are in, you know, that are having encounters with our most celebrated >> sophisticated. Yeah, that's right. And and how do we account for sightings that go back literally to the 4th century? There are ancient writings that that

[22:53] describe these things. You know, a ship crossing uh the sky in ancient Egypt, >> chariots of the fire, >> right? Chariots of fire. >> That one was on iaska. I don't know. [laughter] >> Maybe. Maybe. Although, you know, even with the ranch. >> Yeah. One of the surprising aspects of our investigation was was really documenting incidents that go back to the 1930s relative to bizarre cattle mutilations. I mean, even the original homesteaders

[23:23] >> in interviewing their families have come forward finally >> with the reality that they were experiencing strange phenomena and their own cattle were were being surgically mutilated, dissected, drained of their blood. And this goes back to the 30s. You can't tell me that the government had a sophisticated covert program >> to cover. I mean, we're talking about, you know, one of the most, if not the most >> disturbing unsolved crime spree in the

[23:55] United States history. Over 10,000 incidents. >> It was not just the US, as I understand, right? It was outside of the US. But at least in the United States, we keep records and we >> we have law enforcement that come forward. But even in the last week, >> we've seen signs posted by officials across the basin offering a $20,000 reward to anyone who has information leading to the apprehension of whoever is behind these

[24:26] very disturbing events that continue to take place. It's not only surrounding and involving Skinwalker Ranch, >> but it's the entire submarket area. >> You know, I wondered too when the first when I first heard about Skinwalker Ranch years ago, I wondered, well, I maybe it's it's some kind of weird electromagnetic, you know, something that's phenomenon that's close to the surface. That's that's great. >> Geology, there's got to be a natural explanation. >> But electromagnetic fields don't dissect

[24:59] cattle. No. And and they don't they don't render um equipment completely worthless or malfunctioning, >> right? >> Put people into catatonic states. and and frankly um the diversity of phenomena and the credibility of the witnesses and the data >> the hard data derived from the research activities and investigation under my watch over the last 8 n years is it's unimpeachable. I mean, anyone who

[25:31] does their due diligence has to stand back and acknowledge that >> there there's not only unidentified arrow phenomena that defies any national explanation, but there are these other there are these other events, some of which people would characterize as poltergeist like events, >> right? >> You we have this thing called the hitchhiker effect. I don't know if you've heard of this. >> Oh, yeah. The one that you walk away with some dark entity. Uh like it's weird. >> Yeah. Not only have we had members of our team and visitors, visiting

[26:02] scientists and officials that have ended up in the hospital with mysterious illnesses and injuries. But we've also had individuals leave the ranch and upon leaving the ranch experience in their own homes disturbing phenomena. Some of them call it demonic. Some of them have no other way to describe it other than poltergeistike activity. but strange phenomena, dark forces in many cases that follow them home. They call the hitchhiker effect that um that is

[26:35] another element to the phenomena >> and what we are documenting with a datadriven approach. >> Uh my principal investigator and chief scientist Eric Bard often says we are not led by an inherited narrative or anecdotal accounts. We're led by the data with respect to our investigation. And I think taking a datadriven approach with a diversity of professionals >> from all sorts of different disciplines and backgrounds is going to help us get to the bottom of it. >> Are there any other hot spots like what

[27:08] you see at Skinwalker Ranch elsewhere around the world? >> Absolutely there are. There are other places of uh of interest. In fact, we've been investigating it in my spin-off series Beyond Skinwalker Ranch, which is also a hit on history that is airing on Tuesday nights as well, where we've gone nationwide and even started um documenting incidents in places globally that are exhibiting similar phenomena that have similar claims. >> Could you name a few? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you have uh Bradshaw

[27:39] Ranch, uh Mount Wilson Ranch in Nevada, which was also owned by Robert Bigalow. this seriously. >> What was wrong with Beagle going after the '90s >> and you you take um Mount Wilson and all of the reports very similar to Skinwalker Ranch and as we've gone in to investigate whether there is any validity to strange phenomena, electromagnetic anomalies, >> we've unearthed a whole underground system structures that have been buried.

[28:10] >> What? >> Underground [clears throat] structures. a rail system >> where whereabouts. Um, this isn't Mount Wilson in Nevada. >> Is it from some kind of maybe like old like either war? >> Yeah, >> it is definitely a what I believe to be a covert military op that was shut down. We've found completely incinerated hard drives buried deep beneath the earth as well as entire vehicles that were buried and then covered over >> What kind of vehicles? um

[28:40] government issue vehicles um uh trucks and and why the the big question is why would there be such a cover up? Why are we finding this evidence buried? What what what would be so important as to incinerate hard drives and then proceed to bury them underground and then leave the area uh without any further documentation. So to to answer your question, yes, there

[29:12] are other sites of interest, but for whatever reason, Skinwalker Ranch seems to be uh one that exhibits the highest degree, the highest frequency of strange phenomena. And because it has been under armed guarded surveillance since 1996, it's been locked down. >> It it's kind of the private Area 51 equivalent. It has become over nearly 30 years a living laboratory >> involving decades of scientific investigation and

[29:44] study that is unrivaled and I think gives us a glimpse into not only the nature of our world but also whether consciousness plays a role in some of this as well. >> Right. >> Why did Bigalow sell it? Because he was very much into this phenomena. If there was something to it then why did he decide to sell it? >> That's a good question. I asked myself the same question I asked Mr. Bigalow. Why would you sell him? >> The answer that I was given at the time, which was actually very legitimate, was that he has invested hundreds of millions of dollars out of his own pocket into

[30:15] >> much like you the well, but in his case, the private space race instead of real estate and expanding his real estate empire because he made his money in hospitality and in developing the budget suites of America, extended hotel chain. He has diversified into the private space race, bought NASA's space habitats program, the inflatables program, and has been positioning himself as the real estate developer of space. >> I flew out to Las Vegas and had the privilege of of uh touring his space

[30:46] compound. >> Wow. uh 500,000 square feet >> of secure buildings that house fullsize space stations and space habitats that are being designed and tested for life safety and for deployment in space. And at that time when I was looking at acquiring the ranch, he was working with Elon Musk and SpaceX >> on getting his habitats up into orbit to not only replace the International Space Station potentially, but establish a

[31:17] lunar and even a Mars >> colony. I think that may still be a reality in the future. So that was the official the official account and the official feedback that I received was that he was he his attention had turned to other topics and uh but I think in reality and this is all public domain. Mr. Bigalow had many, many negative things happen >> to him and his family. Uh things that followed him home to Las Vegas. Um

[31:49] dark disturbing things um that um occurred and it's not my place to go into that detail. Um George Knap and others have reported on it, but I believe that he wanted to distance himself from the ranch and blame the ranch for a lot of very disturbing negativity that had occurred in his personal life. And um as I've tried to bring him back, you know, the most recent time several years ago, we hosted Mr. Bigalow and his uh team of

[32:21] scientists that had served on the ranch. I invited them to fly out in my helicopter or my jet and host them. I was so >> excited. >> Excited and anxious to show what I had done. >> Oh, sure. >> I wanted to show Mr. Bigalow, who I consider a giant. I consider him a a courageous individual, an entrepreneur who really was a trailblazer >> and and when it comes to these topics, I mean, there was no one like him that was willing to engage these topics in the

[32:52] private sector >> and I was anxious to show him that I've created my own NASA mission control equivalent. I mean, we've instrumented that property. >> Well, I've seen your hangers research. We have a very sophisticated program out there and Mr. Bigalow had not only zero interest >> Oh my gosh. >> in visiting the ranch ever again, but was violently opposed. >> Wow. >> And I respect that. There are certain individuals that served under his ownership that refused to ever set foot on the ranch ever again.

[33:23] >> Wow. >> And in full transparency, I'll never allow my own children to set foot on the property. Uh, Bigalow sold the property to me both out of um an e effort to be able to focus all of his time and attention >> to the private space race, but also because I think he had experienced so much negativity >> in his personal life and his family had had such tragedy occur that was in his view attributed to his ownership of the

[33:55] ranch that it was time to close that chapter. I was a skeptic. So I I I told everyone upfront that I not only never wanted to to reveal my identity as the owner. I never wanted my identity to be involved with these topics, but I also believe that there was a natural explanation and that I would ultimately debunk it. At the time I was on the board of the National Parks Council of the Boy Scouts of America. I'm a I'm an Eagle Scout, have a couple of palms and was Order of the Arrow if for anyone who's familiar.

[34:25] >> That's a big deal. Yeah. And I I actually thought it would be an incredible scout camp. It would be perfect setting for boy scouts and girl scouts [laughter] >> and >> until they have their blood drain. >> Yeah. Until they end up in the hospital and you're sued by all of their parents. Um anyways, I'm sorry to command so much discussion. >> It's absolutely interesting. And uh Okay. Well, let's go into what do you think these these entities are? >> What do you think? >> Yeah. After

[34:57] seeing what the likes of the Hubble Space Telescope have shown us over the last few years where there are billions, trillions of of known galaxies, known galaxies, >> right? >> We can't possibly be the only intelligent life. We just can't be. >> It it defies logic. Now, that life may be a bacterium

[35:29] or it may be a race that is millions of years more advanced than we are. We just don't know. You know, I I'm also very interested in this uh uh Harvard University uh professor and >> Alvi Lo. >> Ali Lobe. I've had him on my own show a couple of times. God, >> this is a serious academic, a serious researcher, and he just lays out the data, including his take from this uh offshore

[36:02] uh experiment. not even an experiment. He he went offshore off the coast of Papa New Guinea >> and pulled remnants of something off the floor of the Pacific >> that is made up of a material not known to exist on Earth. Now, he said it could have been some sort of interstellar meteorite that we've just never seen before, or it could be an actual metal that has been fabricated by an intelligent being. We don't know.

[36:33] He said they're just the size of BB's. >> Yeah. >> And they bear additional um research and study. But I mean it it you have to conclude that there's got to be something out there. >> Well, the number of exoplanets or planets that have been identified that can support life now are so numerous. >> Oh yes. >> That [clears throat] it's becoming actually quite ignorant for anyone to believe that we're the only intelligent life in the universe. It's not a function of or a question of of of if

[37:06] >> you know there are other worlds that are populated by intelligence. It's it's when will we come into contact with them and do they have the physics >> the the propulsion capability if you will to talk in very rudimentary terms to be able to visit. I think that we've been visited since the beginning of time. I I think that the evidence going back and looking at the ancients and what they left us and and and a lot of the uh the accounts that have gone back thousands of years attest to the fact that we're not alone.

[37:38] When asked, you know, I've had a number of major [snorts] national publications that have asked me [clears throat] the the same question. You know, what is >> what is the origin? What is the origin, the agenda? And >> you know, is it beings from other worlds? Is it interplanetary? Is it multi-dimensional or interdimensional? Maybe even time travel or is it >> I think it's all of them. >> Angels and demons, right? Is it >> Do you think our world is kind of their world and we are the ones that maybe like >> that they were here first? >> Yeah. I mean,

[38:09] >> or they created >> I like that smile. What's [laughter] going on there? >> Like I said, one of the most humbling realizations, >> right? And this isn't just for me, but my entire team is the fact that not only are we not alone, but we're not in control, >> right? >> We're dealing with intelligence, with technology that has the ability to manipulate spaceime. >> It has the ability to manipulate closed systems and and even consciousness itself. There

[38:43] is something about Skinwalker Ranch that is also reflexive or it amplifies consciousness. What we found when people enter the property, if they enter with uh with a spirit of negativity or contention, we've found through the data, tracking these visits and these interactions that often those people that enter with with that kind of attitude end up experiencing negativity

[39:13] or malevolence. Uh >> so they attract it. >> Yeah. And and there's a reason why I ask everyone who enters the property, whether they're flying in with me via the helicopter or driving in through the security gates and being checked in at the guard shack, I ask everyone, regardless of their religious background or their belief system, please enter with prayer, with a spirit of reverence and humility, >> because we're dealing with forces >> that uh that are powerful.

[39:46] Okay. So, we are not in control. They are in control in a way, but they don't want to show themselves fully, right? Like they don't want to assimilate with us apparently like they are kind of getting us signals or whatever. But the problem I have with this, if they are so in control, we went through World War I, World War II, we are about to go in World War II. >> Oh, I hope not. >> What the heck are they doing then? Are they just not nice? Do they want to destroy ours? It's a constant conflict.

[40:17] >> There was the accounts of them stopping the um nuclear bombs. >> Oh, those are rumors. Like what nuclear bomb? >> Not really. Those aren't rumors. That those are documented incidents. And that is what is so disingenuous about the recent Wall Street Journal piece, which was nothing but a hatchet job. >> Uh that was not honest. Um, anyone who has done their due diligence on the the disruption that our military installations, specifically our nuclear >> Yeah. >> assets, our missile silos, have

[40:48] experienced that involve unidentified aerial phenomena and those silos being completely brought offline. Mhm. >> And the number of witnesses who have gone on record that have bravely come forward over decades relative to their accounts. This isn't about some military scop or hazing program. This is very real. This is a national security. >> I would agree with that. But the issue I have where were they during Hiroshima Nagasaki? I mean so many people died.

[41:20] >> Some people say that they saw unidentified aerial phenomena during that event or preceding that event. Um, >> I think if they made themselves known, we'd go into panic, right? >> Well, and there may be a prime directive in place. It's so funny. I'm I'm more of a Star Wars guy than a Star Trek guy, but if you're familiar with the Star Trek universe >> Oh, yeah. >> Um, there is this thing called the Prime Directive where where, you know, they're not to meddle with or reveal themselves free, right? No interference with civilizations that have yet to to

[41:52] evolve. >> Well, let's turn this game. You you talked about Mars and you talked about Elon Musk. I'm a huge fan. Well, Elon is weird. >> Oh, I'm a huge fan. Talk about courageous. The greatest entre entrepreneur >> um of our time, >> hands down, perhaps of all time. No matter what your political >> positions are. No one can deny the fact that there has never been an entrepreneur before him that has has actually >> disrupted more sectors of the economy

[42:23] and brought forward more transformational approaches to everything from >> uh solar >> to space transit to um >> to payment processing. >> Yeah. To um payment process, PayPal. [laughter] Um you look at Neurolink. >> Yeah. >> Scares the daylights out of me. Me too. [snorts] I think it's crazy >> and and um I mean we live in incredible times. I mean I think the the rate of change that we are going to witness over

[42:53] the course of the next 5 years will outpace the decades preceding. There's a >> gentleman you probably have followed him a futurist named um Kerszswwell Kerszswwell who who has spoken and written about the singularity. The singularity is near and the you know the point in time that inflection point where it will be impossible to be able to distinguish between man or machine. We're there. >> You seem excited. I'm not like it scares

[43:24] me. Soulless machines. I know why you're excited because you are in this world, right? So for you it's like more of a disco. you're you're leading like with a mind like Elon Musk in a way that okay this is great for us but we are looking at it like you know coming from the government and an investigative journalist like okay how nefariously you going to use this because John knows what our government is capable of these are the same people that kill their own citizens when they need to for greater good so and you know like then

[43:55] but there's Elon Musk which you know I I trust Ian I think he means well >> power to the people I mean I I believe that disclosure, >> right, >> true disclosure is going to come through the private sector. And that's why I take my stewardship of Skinwalker Ranch in these topics very seriously >> because I don't think you can trust the the government and and and no offense because I actually think that there are incredibly good people, brilliant people that are involved with public service

[44:27] that have been involved with our our um with the CIA, with the FBI, with our Department of >> Exactly. my position >> and and thank goodness we've had those people that serve our country and protect democracy. And even though you have bad actors, and you do have bad actors, >> a lot of them, >> I think that there's reason to rejoice. You look at our quality of life today versus 100 years ago. 100 years ago, people were still making the transition

[44:57] from horse and buggy >> to the automobile. Mhm. >> Our our highway system was barely being built. I mean, we were just we were just decades uh from Promontory where they connected the uh intercontin continental rail line. >> That's right. >> Electricity was a new innovation electrifying our cities >> and not universally available. >> Yeah. You look at today though and you look at the fact that we all hold the Library of Alexandria in our pocket. We hold in our palms

[45:30] the power of information, of knowledge, of innovation that surpasses anything that even our own my own grandparents and great-grandparents would have ever imagined. the ability to transform our world for the better. >> For us to join as a as an interplanetary or or a a uh space fairing species to to reach beyond

[46:01] earth to to be able to explore the stars I think is within our grasp and what it does >> is it ensures the survival of humanity >> and the progression. Mhm. I >> I think to a degree if these things if these UFOs if the intelligence behind the UFO or UAP phenomena was all malevolent, if we were >> Oh yeah. >> If we were slaves, if we were being basically harvest if we were being harvested >> for our souls or for enslavement, I

[46:33] think there's a good chance we would have already experienced that. I mean, they they've already demonstrated that they have control beyond what we can imagine. Um I believe that we do live in a divinely constructed intelligently designed reality. I believe that there is a higher power that there is a there is a purpose >> God maybe. >> I absolutely believe it and I believe that that divinity that divine force >> that connects all of us that connects

[47:04] our collective consciousness to a degree has the good of humanity. >> Can I say something about Elon Musk very quickly? >> Yeah, absolutely. Forgive me if you've heard of this. >> Yeah, go for it. >> In 2009, I had an idea for a television uh a newsbased television series and I had a friend who was very active in that world and I I told him about it. He said, "Oh, we should pitch it. But you know what?" He said, "My best friend from high school was just named the president of

[47:35] NBC, so let me call him first and we can pitch it to him." I said, "Great." My friend Rich calls his friend Ben and uh Ben says, "Oh, I'm going to be in Washington. There's a big fundraiser at the White House and why don't we meet at this restaurant bar across the street afterwards?" We said, "Great." He calls us at 9 to say he's going to be 15 minutes late and do we mind if he brings a friend? I said, "The more the marrier." Yeah. >> He comes at 9:15 and with this guy and uh Rich and Ben

[48:08] are hugging each other and patting each other in the back. And then Ben says, "Uh, this is my friend Elon." I said, "Hi, Elon. My name's John. Nice to meet you." We sit down. Rich and Ben are talking about high school and the girls they went out with and it was all, you know, memory lane. I got bored. So I turned I said, "So Elon, what do you do for a living?" And it was like he snapped into >> reality, >> a kid. >> Yeah. And he said, "Oh, I have this

[48:39] passion for technology and I created this company called PayPal. And then I sold it for like a billion dollars. And then I took the money and I made another company. I bought a company called Tesla. And then I made this space company. And we're going to go to Mars. And we're going to colonize Mars. and we're gonna put a bubble with oxygen in it and people are gonna settle Mars. I said, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you saying you're Elon Musk?" >> Yeah. >> And he says, "Yeah." And I said, "The Thomas Edison of our time." >> He said, "I guess so." But anyway,

[49:11] listen. [laughter] We're going to go to Mars and the first people that are up there, they're probably not going to make it, and then others will follow them, and eventually we're going to colonize Mars. All night long. That's all he talked about was Mars. And I thought, "This guy's somebody special. This wasn't just a normal guy and this is before anybody knew who Elon Musk was in tech. >> And but you even look at Jeff Bezos. Sure. >> Who has also put a large portion of his fortune into Blue Origin.

[49:42] >> That's right. >> In a race against Elon Musk and and also to enable space travel. >> And isn't that kind of competition wonderful? >> It's beautiful. >> It so advances us. >> It's freaking America at it. >> Exactly right. But Jeff Bezos in his he was high school validictorian and in his high school validator speech you can this is on the public domain. Guess what his speech was about and focused on? It was >> traveling to the stars. It was about space colonization.

[50:13] >> Wow. >> And moving beyond our current state into the next frontier. And you look at what Jeff Bezos is doing. So many others. I mean Paul Allen, the late Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft who who invested significant resources into this effort. Richard Branson. Yeah. >> You know, for all of his showmanship. >> Yeah. I mean, you look at what Virgin has done in order to at least electrify um uh imaginations and uh and you have

[50:45] an unmatched degree of private sector investment. If it wasn't for SpaceX and Elon Musk and his risktaking, we would still be dependent on the Russians, >> yes, >> to get to the International Space Station. Let everyone ponder that for a moment that the last 15 years since the space shuttle program was completely dismantled, we would have been completely 100% at the mercy of the Russians,

[51:17] >> who we should give a huge credit to. >> Yeah. because they actually pioneered pretty much everything when it gets to space. They were the ones to send first uh dog. >> Hey, quit it. >> No, [laughter] they sputnick. Well, you look at the space race. You look at >> human man, woman, like all of them. That That's Russia. >> Oh, Sputnik. Well, you look at what a fire it built. What a catalyst. >> And what a call to action. You look at President John F. Kennedy and uh and his

[51:48] imperative, his call to action >> the decade. >> Yeah. >> And but it takes it takes a diversity of individuals with resources and vision. Even Howard Hughes, you remember the late Howard Hughes? >> Sure. >> Who ended up kind of, you know, dying >> just in a dark dingy hotel room in Las Vegas. But that that individual Howard Hughes to a degree who is a precursor to Elon Musk >> indeed >> funded more innovation into everything from medical to our satellite our

[52:20] >> GPS aerospace still exists. >> Yeah. And >> what an incredible uh time to live in. What an incredible um momentum that we are witnessing. So I yes I choose to be optimistic about the future. I think that we have good people that want to see our world improved. Um that are trying to work together and even competitively against each other in order to push us push boundaries. And I

[52:52] choose that narrative over the Terminator that cyberdine systems is going to ultimately annihilate us and render human species >> completely u irrelevant. Move. Mhm.
