Title: Ep 4510 — CIA Torture Network & Whistleblowing
Show: Scott Horton
Date: 2018-02-06
URL: https://youtu.be/v8zrgfI0QvU
Duration: 36:00

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[00:00] hey guys I finally did it I published the book it came out fool's errand time to end the war in Afghanistan it's at fool's errand dot u.s. fool's errand dot u.s. it's on Amazon and paperback and in Kindle and check it out last night I got a brand new blurb from Colonel Douglas McGregor he says he recommended it to be part of the coursework at the army command and General Staff College that's how much he liked it great read vitally important brilliant achievement he said so check

[00:30] that out fool's errand dot u.s. whoa is the improvement of investment climates by other means clouds of its for dummies [Music] the Scott Horton show taking out Saddam Hussein turned out to be a pretty good deal they hate our freedoms we're dealing with Hitler revisited we couldn't wait for that cold war to be over quickly because we can go and play with our toys in the sand go and play with our toys in the sand

[01:02] no nation could preserve freedom in the myths of continual warfare today I authorized the Armed Forces United States in military action in Libya that action has now begun when the president desert that means that it is not only all right you guys Scott Horton

[01:34] Show check out the full archives at Scott Horton org 4500 something of them there for you going back to 2003 the book is fool's errand time to end the war in Afghanistan you find that at fool's errand dot us and follow me on Twitter at Scott Wharton Show all right introducing John Kiriakou he was CIA during the torture era and did 30 months in prison but not for torturing anybody but for verifying the names of CIA torturers to a reporter

[02:05] he's the only CIA officer held accountable during that entire thing and it was for telling the truth about it not for participating in it and check this out I'm so excited about this I mean obviously I haven't had a chance to read it yet but I just saw this headline last week it's Joseph Hickman and John Kiriakou together the convenient terrorist Abu Zubaydah this is so important you guys you know of course in

[02:37] this audience are familiar Joseph Hickman is the Guantanamo guard who blew the whistle about the murder of three men at the CIA secret camp no or Penny Lane sight down there at Guantanamo Bay back in 2006 and the other Scott Horton the international human rights lawyer from Harper's and Columbia has written a lot of great stories about that and then so now these two together Kiriakou and Hickman together with a book all about Abu Zubaydah and Abu Zubaydah we all

[03:09] remember was the poster boy for of course we torture people we love torturing people we gotta torture people we don't torture people though but yeah we do and when we do we do it because of guys like Abu Zubaydah and then according to Ron Suskind when CIA director George Tenet told George W Bush that actually yet turns out this guy's not really al-qaeda and it's not really that big of a deal that Bush said I said he was important you're not going

[03:39] to make me lose face on this are you George and so that was why they continued to pretend that Abu Zubaydah deserved to be tortured needed to be tortured that good information was gained from his torture not just lies about Saddam Hussein welcome to the show John Kiriakou how are you doing thank you Scott I'm very happy to be with you again tell me how many different lies about Saddam Hussein did Abu Zubaydah tell under torture oh my gosh you know this is really the this is really the crux of the whole matter isn't it the Abu Zubaydah was not the

[04:10] number three in al-qaeda not only that Abu Zubaydah never even joined al-qaeda and the CIA in the White House were trumpeting the notion that not only was he the number three in al-qaeda but that he was instrumental in the planning of the September 11th attacks that was just simply a lie and then when we were looking for justification for the Iraq war the administration pointed at Abu Zubaydah and at Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and said that they were the ones who who

[04:40] arranged or organized the contact between al-qaeda and and Saddam Hussein absolutely preposterous on its face al-qaeda hated Saddam Hussein as much as they hated us Saddam Hussein was a secular leader whether we liked his politics or not there was nothing Muslim about him he was hated by al-qaeda and vice versa as much as we were and so really if you look back to that period from September 11th 2001 until the end of the Bush administration everything

[05:12] was based on a line yeah you know let me ask you this I mean this is just sort of an opinion speculation question not really a factual or a yes/no type question but why do you think that they bothered really torturing lies out of zubeida and out of shake all Libya and there may have been others I don't know off the top my head of others who were made to implicate Saddam Hussein why was that better than just making up lies like an example the the lies that al-libi told that saddam had trained

[05:44] them how to make chemical weapons and had trained them how to hijack airplanes and all these things I mean why not just pretend he said that or that somebody did you know that's a great question and I'm not even sure I have an answer for you I think and this is gonna be this is gonna sound very sad but I think that there was a group during the Bush administration a group made up of neoconservatives and I mean Democrats as well as Republicans remember Richard Perle is still a registered Democrat that's right who just loved the idea of

[06:16] torture because they loved the idea of getting tough remember when I was first approached and asked if I wanted to be trained in these torture techniques well what it was was I was I was at the CIA and a senior a senior counterterrorism center officer approached me and said hey I'm glad I ran into you do you want to be trained in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques and I had never heard that term before so I said what's that mean and instead of explaining it directly he very excitedly said we're gonna start

[06:48] getting rough with these guys and so I think maybe that that was really a part of it it was it was that they wanted to they wanted to be Cowboys they wanted to be tough guys Trump said right Trump said look if it doesn't work they deserve it anyway it's their punishment it's that attitude that got us to the situation that we were in and then yeah so this is the thing too is what a red herring that it doesn't work it doesn't work sure it works it works great and it you know in fact well I mean I don't want to

[07:21] oversimplify I was reading this piece at salon.com where where you guys are kind of introducing your new book here the road to torture how the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques became legal after 9/11 and you guys really do a great job of explaining what the previous interrogation techniques were not just the FBI's options but the CIA's options and how they considered you know what they considered to be tried-and-true methods of interrogation but it seems like

[07:52] I mean maybe this is just hindsight you know kind of thing or or you know whatever mischaracterization but it sort of seems like when they're saying that torture doesn't work because it results in false information that what they were really saying is torture works great for getting false information and we need some and that maybe that was why they did it in the first place I mean I'm trying to picture a CIA guy torturing zubeida or a Libby or something and saying you know tell me about Saddam and

[08:22] then they go oh yes Saddam yeah he taught me how to make chemical weapons and I'm trying to picture a CIA guy believing this rather than smiling that he's succeeded in torturing the lies he needed out of this schmuck exactly exactly right I think that's exactly right I told ABC News way back when in 2007 when I first went public on this thing that if you torture a guy long enough he's gonna confess to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby I mean if that's your point if your point is to get him to

[08:52] just admit to something anything then sure sure torture works all right now so tell us a bunch of stories about how all this started cuz you were in on the nabbing of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Ramzi bin al-shibh and or all Zubaydah I get this all mixed up there in the early days of the terror war right yeah I'll correct you on that one yeah I was the chief of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan post 9/11 and so I led a series of raids in March of 2002 that resulted in the capture of a Zubaydah we caught

[09:23] him that night and I'm not allowed to say the exact number but many dozens of other al-qaeda fighters including some senior people I ran spurred to a different job inside the CIA when I got back that summer of 2002 so Remzi been a ship in Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happened oh six or eight weeks after I had switched over okay I wish I could take credit for those guys but no I'm sorry I got that wrong I was going from memory instead of rereading this morning make sure all right but now

[09:55] so well once you got back to the States then what was your job cuz I thought I had remembered that you were commenting pretty specifically about what had happened in Thailand with these guys right yeah my job was to be the executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director for operations and so I was his morning brief and the directors morning briefer for the following year and in that position because because you're the deputy directors right-hand guy on all the reporting worldwide I had access to

[10:26] literally everything that was coming in from every CIA station and base around the world and that's how I knew about all of it I see that's me that's quite a position I didn't realize that you were that higher rank you were telling the director of the CIA what the rest of the CIA wanted him to know that morning huh yeah hey well just on that point how much difference is there between the truth and what you guys tell the director what the truth is you know

[11:00] because everybody it seems like everybody out there wants their truth to be known and you've got to be able to read through the lines you've got to be or between the lines I should say you've got to be able to see what officer is out there trying to promote himself to get himself in front of the director and telling you something that's patently not true which happens every single day let me tell you and then you know people have a very short memory because I spent seven and a half years as an analyst in

[11:33] in the CIA's Directorate of intelligence I had a longer term view of things than than most operations people and so somebody would say something about Iraq for example you know with the Iraqis have a nuclear program actually the Iraqis don't have a nuclear program they dismantled it and it's been confirmed by the United Nations weapons inspectors well they've only been on their job the CIA people have only been on the job for six months or 12 months they don't know what the heck happened three years ago

[12:04] with the UN weapons inspectors so you need somebody who who's an institutional memory and in the Directorate of operations do you really don't have that we have guys just clawing to get ahead of each other to recruit somebody to get face time with the director so that they can get promoted and become a station chief so the truth the truth is the first casualty I could see that the economics of office politics but even worse in a government bureaucracy let me say this a

[12:39] CSCI a psychiatrist once told me that the CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies they don't seek to hire sociopaths because sociopaths have no conscience they easily pass a polygraph and they're impossible to control people who have sociopathic tendencies do have a conscience but at the same time they are comfortable working in moral or legal or ethical gray areas the problem is it's

[13:09] very easy for sociopaths to slip through the cracks through the system and every once in a while a psychopath will slip through because again they're impossible to control and hard to weed out and you need dirty work done and you need dirty work done and that's very attractive to a lot of people and so not only are you dealing with office politics but you're dealing with CIA case officers who are all alpha dogs by their nature and then at the same time half of them are

[13:40] sociopaths with no conscience so it's no wonder that these things happen I think the the amazing thing is that more horrible things don't happen all right hang on just one second for me hey guys check it out I got a new sponsor it's Hussein Badakhshan II author of the new book no dev no ops no IT about how to run your high-tech business correctly no dev no ops no IT by Hussein Badakhshan II it's on amazon.com also check out the

[14:10] war State by Mike Swanson a great history of the early rise of the military-industrial complex after World War two and also check out Mike's great investment advice at Wall Street window dot-com Robertson Robert's brokerage Inc when you're ready to follow Mike's advice and buy yourself some metals that's rrb I see our RBI CEO Liberty stickers comfrey or anti-government propaganda 3t editing.com if you want your book to read right somebody just sent me I was

[14:41] coming from on Twitter this morning there was a story of mando Weis about how some settlers had chopped down a bunch of olive trees on the west bank and and someone said oh yeah merican and Israelis shared values destroying private property you know and it was right when he sent me that was right when I was reading in your article about the Palestinian example or the the Israeli example for why actually it is okay to torture people as long as you put it in a memo and you say that you're trying to prevent worse harm and I'm

[15:11] sorry I'm talking about Twitter but I just like the guys response he said it's another shared value we are the new Machiavelli ins but with a twist the end justifies the means but the end never comes oh very very insightful that great you know I had a guy when I was stationed in Bahrain between 1994 and 1996 I had an intern working for me he was a young kid from Yale you know what I'm not even gonna use his name um and

[15:42] he was really bright and he spoke Farsi and I thought boy this this kids going places and indeed he did go places he ended up getting his PhD from Yale and he became a major neocon thinker writer and author major he very briefly did a rotation not a rotation he very briefly was chosen by the Bush administration to work at the Pentagon and the run-up to

[16:14] the Iraq war but I didn't even know he was a neocon I ran into him at a conference when I was the deputy directors executive assistant and I said hey why don't you come over to the agency and you can break you can brief the deputy director and the associate deputy directors on what's going on in Iraq so he came over and started talking about I mean it was just this this litany of neocon nonsense in the run-up and then he capped it off

[16:45] by by saying that one of the things that he was recommending to defense secretary Rumsfeld was a targeted assassination program and I'm you could just see people guffaw right so at the end of it the deputy director said I think your friends a little nutty and I walked him out to the car and I said dude when did you become a fascist and he says John everything changed on 9/11 we've got to take the bull by the horns you know plaplapla and he's still out there

[17:17] advocating targeted assassinations and all these other different crimes against humanity the shame of it is that it's become mainstream and mainstream to the point where a person like Donald Trump can say that if elected he's going to bring back waterboarding and quote a hell of a lot worse so you know there's been a real disservice in this country by the neoconservative and neoliberal movements that war is good war on our

[17:47] Terms is better and we're just not going to respect previous arrangements to quote Junior soprano well the thing is about it is tortures been illegal in America since the Revolutionary War General Washington said anybody who tortures anybody I'll shoot you right that's the order we executed Japanese soldiers after World War two because they had waterboarded American prisoners of war in fact Ronald Reagan prosecuted the Texas sheriff the DOJ I mean and everybody knows any cop can commit any

[18:18] crime and give me a break right but it was ed Meese put a Texas sheriff in prison for waterboarding a guy all that torture and the law never changed you know I say all the time in speeches that in January of 1968 The Washington Post ran a front-page photograph of an American soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner and the day that that picture was published the Secretary of Defense ordered an investigation that soldier was arrested he was prosecuted

[18:49] on charges of torture and he was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in a military prison so torture was in 1946 and it was illegal in 1968 but then suddenly somehow it's not illegal in 2002 despite the fact that the law never changed we changed but now okay so take me back again you are now that I forget which all title but you're the morning briefer for the director and the deputy director from which date to which date again yeah

[19:19] from August of 2002 to August of 2003 mm-hmm so in the entire run-up to Iraq war - yeah in the entire run-up in fact I would I would go so far as to say that 90% of the information that I briefed had to do with Iraq well and so are you then confessing that you're the world's greatest liar or you're saying you're accusing the director of pretending to not know the truth that you told him which is it you know there's a funny story that I told in my first book

[19:50] between the reluctant spy we're on my first day in that job I went up to the associate deputy director and I said okay I'm ready to go so what are we doing and he said you know what I can't even tell you what we're doing until you go upstairs and sign your secrecy agreements I thought that was odd but I went up to the seventh floor knocked on the appropriate door and said hey I'm here to sign my secrecy agreements they gave me six or seven different agreements that I needed to sign

[20:21] promising that I would never talk about this information until the day I died or until it was Declassified so it's been Declassified and I signed the agreements and I said to the guy okay so what's up and he says here's the deal next year we are going to invade Iraq we're gonna overthrow Saddam Hussein we're gonna install a pro US government in Baghdad and we're gonna open the world's largest Air Force Base in southern Iraq so that

[20:54] we can move all of our air assets out of Saudi Arabia and deprive Osama bin Laden of the ability to say that we're polluting the land of the Two Holy Mosques I was dumbfounded and all I could think to say to the guy was but we haven't caught bin Laden yet and he kind of chuckled and he said buddy the decisions been made and let me tell you how this is gonna play out he said battle lines have already been drawn the pro-war side is the is OVP the

[21:27] office of vice-president OSD the office of the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Council the anti-war side is CIA which still wanted to hunt bin Laden State Department and Joint Chiefs of Staff I began participating in these video teleconferences with major players I mean they were they were chaired by either condi rice or Dick Cheney depending on who was you know who was available that day and every principal

[21:57] and deputy were participating in these things and I mean the battle lines were clear in these video teleconferences finally I was back benching George Tenet one day and condi rice asked the Central Command sink sent the commander-in-chief of Central Command for a briefing on on our plans to go across the Kuwait Iraq border and he said well we have you know X Y & Z divisions on the border we're

[22:30] gonna attack day after tomorrow we're gonna cross blah blah blah and then he said we can be in Tehran by August and George Tenet shut off his microphone turned around to me because I was the note-taker and he said did he say we could be in Tehran or we could be in Baghdad by August and I said he said Tehran and he says have these people lost their minds and then he turned back around and turned his microphone back on

[23:01] but this is what we were up against I mean lie or no lie the fix was in from the beginning don't forget that on September 12th 2001 Richard Perle went to the White House and told Condoleezza Rice we have to attack Iraq so it really didn't matter if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction it didn't matter if it something or nothing to do with al-qaeda the decision was made from the very beginning of the Bush administration

[23:31] that Saddam Hussein was going to die man well great anecdote I mean I actually have a part in the book where I quote Paul Wolfowitz on the record saying something a lot along those lines about the motive for attacking Iraq and then another anonymous quote which I think may actually also be Wolfowitz both saying that same thing where they're basically you hear that everybody write that the note of Ron Paul in there 9/11 happened because America was occupying

[24:02] Saudi Arabia and we got to get those bases out of Saudi Arabia it got us attacked we want to deflate take the win from bin Laden's sales by moving those bases but then so what do they do invade Iraq again million people and so that yeah we got to be able to move those bases to the north yeah they won't mind died in though as long as the bases aren't near Mecca and Medina which of course Iraq just replaced the Saudi bases on the list and there's still a few bases in Saudi anyway so it makes

[24:32] little difference but they actually invoked blowback as the reason why they needed to start a new war to miss just two movies of damn bases a few hundred miles north yep yep that's right and listen you know I when I was an analyst I was reading the Saudi press and I was reading the al Qaeda you know pronouncements I was reading all that stuff and the complaints were that US soldiers were having sex at the holy Kaaba in Mecca that female soldiers were walking around their bases naked and

[25:03] after their their work day was over they were going out into the towns and working as prostitutes I mean you know people who have no real exposure to the United States or to Westerners they believe this stuff the these allegations have legs and the truth is it was better for us and it would have been safer for us just to not have anything to do with Saudi Arabia we could have we could have established forward position we really needed them in Kuwait in

[25:34] Bahrain in Qatar in the United Arab Emirates in Oman all over the region we have plenty of places all over the region that we can base ourselves that aren't Saudi Arabia and you know another thing too Scott is and actually dr. Paul mentioned this last weekend at the Ron Paul Institute event in Dulles at Dulles Airport he said that he said that we really don't have a special relationship

[26:04] with Saudi Arabia we say we do the Saudis say we do but there's when you cut cut right to the chase there's nothing special about it we sell the Saudis weapons and they sell us oil and that's it there's nothing else this is all about this is all about weapons sales and capitalism and energy it's not about a special relationship so if we weren't dependent on Saudi oil and and you know the truth is we're less and less dependent every year a little bit at least but if we want to power on

[26:34] Saudi oil we wouldn't have any reason to keep our bases in Saudi Arabia we could just move them elsewhere well we're not even really dependent on Saudi oil I mean the whole thing is really just a military strategy so in case there's a war with China we'll get yes we have the ability to shut off their tap and we get all our oil from Venezuela and stuff that's right it is poured oil now yeah we do again now ok so um all right we only have a few minutes left here and well you and I aren't done talking by a long shot here but I'm not sure there's too

[27:07] many different directions to go but I'm gonna go with this one the other day you and I together were interviewed by Kelly Vallejos for the American conservative magazines 9/11 video podcast special thing there and you said this thing and actually had a friend transcribe this for me Thank You Niko appreciate it you said this to Kelly well and this is a little bit out of time but I think it's same difference anyway well the truth of the matter is that the drone program is probably the most potent recruiting tool

[27:38] that foreign terrorist groups have I can tell you that I interrogated dozens of al-qaeda fighters in my CIA years and to a man they all said that they had no beef with the United States they had no personal problem with the United States until we rocketed their villages with drones and we killed their cousin or their parents or their brother and sister or whatever it was and they were compelled to take up arms against the United States so there are people in countries all over

[28:11] the region not just in the Middle East but South Asia and the Horn of Africa that otherwise would never have had reason to take up arms against us and did so solely because of the drone program so you know drone program is a bit more specific but so I want to ask you a couple of follow-ups from this which is first of all can you help us with the timeframe of when exactly you were personally interrogating these guys and then can you I guess just verify that this isn't just a figure of speech you really mean to

[28:42] say to a man they all said that this was about violence this was about Earth this was not about my imam promise me virgins in heaven if I only believe in radical Islam hard enough and kill you for being innocent or whatever right I'm talking about 2002 to 2004 the early years of the drone program but but I'll go even even further than that there were others who told me that they were how should I

[29:19] say this they were they were residents of isolated villages in their home country whatever the country was doesn't matter Yemen Algeria Saudi Arabia whatever they had no jobs no job prospects no prospects for getting married they were illiterate and what man would want his daughter to marry someone who was illiterate and had no job training and so the local Imam went up to them and said hey what are you doing staying staying in this village you should go to jail make jihad against the Americans

[29:50] and if you do we'll give you 50 dollars a month and if you're murdered we'll give your family five hundred dollars as a martyrdom bonus and so you know they would go through training and it was really no big deal for them they didn't know the Quran they had never read the Quran they didn't know the prayers they weren't religious really I mean they were Muslim but not an economic draft is what you're talking about that's exactly what it was that's exactly what it was and what it comes down to is they were they were really

[30:21] not motivated to fight against us even the ones who went through training weren't really motivated to fight against us but then we started killing their families with drones or with rocket attacks hey I went to I went to Yemen in 2011 with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and it was my fifth trip to Yemen over the previous 20 years and every time I go to Yemen it's worse than the previous time now it's a failed state the whole place is in chaos I was

[30:54] in a taxi and I said to the taxi driver so how are things going with this Houthi rebellion up north I've read that it's it's getting pretty bad and he said yeah the Houthis are dangerous but we're confident of victory because the Saudis are bombing them with drones and I said the Saudis don't have drones and that was the first time I had heard that we were droning Houthi rebels in Yemen we

[31:25] didn't have the Yemeni government's permission to to fly drones armed drones over their territory let alone to kill Yemeni citizens and technically we're supposed to be neutral in that war but those had to have been our drones killing those people up north see we dig ourselves this hole and then we just keep digging deeper and deeper and deeper until we're at war and then we can't get out of the hole we've dug well

[31:56] that was what Hillary Clinton said was when you look around you see all the deep holes that we're in you figure everybody better grab a shovel and get digging stupid she never saw war she didn't jump right into yeah all right now so uh oh man I've only got one more second I'm gonna keep you one more minute here Marc Thiessen is this torture monger from the Bush administration I forgot what his position was in the bush mid-level

[32:28] nobody he's at the American Enterprise Institute yeah he was CIA then right is that no a mid-level mid-level White House nobody yeah white house yeah yeah okay I'm sorry I was getting too confused anyway so Thiessen he wrote a thing in The Washington Post and in the Washington Post he quotes Mitchell the torturer the CIA contractor torturers psychologist guy and so he says contrary to what you may have heard which I take as real progress for our version of the narrative here contrary

[32:59] to what you may have heard from the left and the right bin Laden was definitely not trying to lure us into a horrible no-win quagmire of bankruptcy and destruction like the Soviet Union no not at all Mitchell says that colleague Sheikh Mohammed told him that no geez we thought you guys would pack up and run away like after Beirut and after Black Hawk Down and we were so surprised when you came to invade and I thought you know I don't know I guess it's possible that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Osama bin Laden never talked about this or is

[33:32] it likely even maybe that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is just jerking Mitchell's chain yeah and and and Mitchell is reporting back jeez boss they say that the last thing that they want is for us to stay and spend every last dollar we've got or or what do you think about that you know teason is an idiot first of all secondly Osama bin Laden said publicly in audio tapes that he released two aljazeera that the whole purpose of

[34:03] the 9/11 attacks well it was twofold one to punish the United States but the other was to drag down the American economy that was it he wanted to shut down New York and shut down the stock exchange and really damage the American economy and at least in the short term he succeeded and he told all this to abdel bari at one the all codes all IRB paper in London in 1997 or whatever I explained all of it in depth he even said he was

[34:35] disappointed when Bill Clinton left after Black Hawk Down that was supposed to provoke what he called a war of attrition there and he didn't care how many Somalis were supposed to die in the thing he was wanting to get to replicate in the battle against the Soviet Union right there in 1993 when they first tried to topple one tower into the other you think somebody might have taken the hint from that exactly anyway all right listen I'm sorry I know you're out of time we have a lot more talking about two thousand two and three and the run-up to Iraq I Langley headquarters

[35:07] over there and I need to read your book and so we'll be in touch thank you very much John I look forward to it thanks for having me always great to talk to you Scott yes sir all right guys that is John Kiriakou who's the only CIA guy punished over the CIA torture program for telling the truth about it to a reporter really went to the penitentiary for it and now he's got this great new book it's well I don't know how great it is but I bet it is it's co-authored with Joseph Hickman the

[35:37] heroic whistleblower from Guantanamo Bay about their Guantanamo quote suicides there it's called the convenient terrorist Abu Zubaydah coming out very soon here I think it is oh no it is already available right now and you can read all about it at this great article at salon.com the road to torture how the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques became legal after 9/11 by the both of them there I'm Scott Wert and check out the book it's fools air and time to end the

[36:08] war in Afghanistan I cover a lot of the same topics we just talked with John Kiriakou about some of these paragraphs that his block quotes are gonna be in the next edition I'm pretty sure fool's errand time down the war in Afghanistan that's at fool's errand u.s. then you go to Scott Horton org for all the interview archives 4500 something interviews going back to 2003 for you there and I'm the managing director of the libertarian Institute at libertarian institute.org read the bad news at anti-war calm and follow me on twitter at scott wharton show thanks guys
