Title: The Honest Talk
Show: The Honest Talk
Date: 2026-01-23
URL: https://youtu.be/xrjng6Ccz6k
Duration: 17:00

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[00:00] was in mastering the CIA's writing style. So, the most important product that the CIA writes every day is the PDB, the president's daily brief, >> and it tells the president what >> what you think he needs to know. >> Okay? >> So, for example, when the Iraqis began moving to the to the Kuwaiti border, we had this big debate. Are they going to are they going to cross the border? Yes or no? So I said, "Listen, why don't

[00:30] I call the American Defense ATES in Baghdad and I'll just ask him to drive down there and look and tell us what he sees?" He drives down there, drives back, he calls me, and he says, "Literally, the entire Iraqi military is on its way to the Kuwaiti border." So we wrote a thing for the president saying Iraq is going to invade Kuwait and it's probably going to happen in the next 48 hours. And when when did the president see that particular briefing? >> At 7:00 a.m. the next morning. >> Okay. And is there ever situations where

[01:01] the president would get it? In the middle of the night. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And be told in the middle of the night that >> Yes. There there are these levels of immediacy. There's routine, which is like who cares? And then there is um priority, which means ah I'll get to it sometime today. Then there's immediate, which means you should probably read it first. But then there's flash, which means, "Oh my god, something terrible just happened. You should

[01:32] probably wake the president." And then there's critic, which means they're coming over the embassy walls. We're at war. Wake up the president. Scramble the jets. >> 911. >> That's a critic. [clears throat] >> So going back to this question of your training. >> Yeah. What is it that the CIA teach you about human nature and how to use human nature to your advantage that could be transferable to other

[02:03] disciplines in life like business or well this is going to sound not very nice but it's it's real life it's everyday life especially in in business the CIA actively seeks to hire people who have what they call sociopathic tendencies. Not sociopaths. Sociopaths have no conscience. They'll just blow right through a polygraph exam, but they're impossible to corral. They're impossible

[02:36] to to, you know, keep under rain. Uh, and it's because they're not able, their brains won't allow them to feel regret or remorse. Now, in business, most CEOs are sociopaths. Most, not all, but most. Especially in big companies, because they claw their way to the top, usually on the backs of the people around them. They don't feel bad screwing the next guy to get that next promotion. The CIA wants people

[03:06] like that because those are the people who are going to break into a foreign embassy. A normal person would not advocate breaking into a foreign embassy. It's sovereign territory of a foreign country. I would I'd be glad to do it. >> Why? >> Because we're the good guys. >> So, do you have sociopathic tendencies? >> Absolutely. >> And what are your sociopathic tendencies? >> My sociopathic tendency was to operate in legal, moral, and ethical gray areas.

[03:42] Specifically, that's what it was. I'm really curious about what we can learn about human nature from someone whose job was to meet strangers and to get them to basically sometimes to turn against their own country. >> Like I'm really interested in and I think I think it's informative because so many of us, you know, when we think about what good leadership is or what good sales man or womanship is, >> um it seems like there's transferables. I guess for some people it's family. I guess for some people it's something

[04:12] else that that that hook that you're talking about, that thing that gets them. >> And the word that they use at the CIA for the hook is a vulnerability. And it's not really a vulnerability in every case. Now, 95% studies have been done about this internally at the CIA. 95% of the people who agree to become spies for us do it for the money. Right? It's it's a simple cash transaction. You give me money,

[04:43] I'll give you secrets. 95%. >> So, you telling me that you think human motivation is 95% driven by money? >> Yes. >> Really? >> Yes. The rest was love and family, um, ideology, revenge, and excitement. You're going to get a handful of people who are hooked on James Bond movies and they will do it. I mean, you're going to pay them anyway, but they will do it just for the adrenaline rush.

[05:13] >> It's interesting because when I look at this list of things and I compare it to business, it I would say it's slightly different from my experience of hiring people, specifically of hiring people. I tend to think that, you know, you could, one would ask themselves like, why would someone leave a company right now like, I don't know, Open AAI and go work at a startup. They're going to get paid way more at OpenAI. You've got these this equity and these grants, but people are on mass doing that. And even when I think about the early days of Google,

[05:43] people left the big conglomerates that would pay them more >> and they went and worked for Larry and Sergey um getting paid way less, right? but to be involved in something small, scrappy, exciting, >> and and so I and this is what what I think about when I sit, you know, probably I've had thousands of people in my life now across my businesses, and money is a factor, but it doesn't tend to be the biggest factor. [clears throat] >> It tends to be, in my experience, there's a particular hero's journey in

[06:14] their mind that they want to be seen through, they want to complete. >> Uhhuh. you know, there's a particular way that they see themselves and they want to fulfill that. >> Oh, I could get that. I I work with a with a very very tiny startup right now called Ivy Cyber and uh it it focuses on privacy software, you know, things like, you know, scrambling your data so it can't be intercepted, that that sort of thing. And I've participated in a couple of pitches to uh to angel investors

[06:47] and they all say exactly the same thing that you did. >> And this is why I was confused when I heard that money was 95%. Because I I just think especially in the work that you I don't know especially in the work that you do. I would assume >> but look at it this way. I think this would explain the discrepancy. um you're comparing people who are making a life >> versus people who are betraying their country. >> True. And what's interesting as well is in those examples that you've given,

[07:18] money is actually a proxy to be able to take care of my family. >> Mhm. >> And to be able to, you know, fulfill my ideology and maybe to get excitement and revenge. Do you know what I'm saying? So even that guy that wanted the plane ticket so he could fly home. Yeah. Yeah, he could he could have the money could have got him home if you just given him >> the reason why he wanted to go home was because his family >> his family that was it. >> What's the extent of the things that the CIA can get as a incentive for someone to turn against their nation to give

[07:49] secrets? >> Quite literally anything you can imagine. >> Even if it's against the law. >> Well, like they're not going to get like drugs or, you know, child prostitutes or No, not stuff like that. What if someone said, "I want you to um get me a a green card." >> Oh, yeah, sure. >> What if they said, >> "If the information is good enough, not a problem." >> What if they said, "I want you to I've got this tax bill. I want you to make

[08:20] the tax bill go away." >> Okay. Give me Give me the plans to that Russian tank. We'll make it happen. >> What if it was an American? Would they speak to the IRS here and just get rid of it? >> Oh, if it was an American citizen, you mean? Yeah. >> Uh, no. >> But they Why? >> No. We normally don't recruit American citizens. By law, the CIA can't operate domestically, although they have offices all over the country. Those offices are generally to to debrief business

[08:51] leaders, seauite officers who travel to denied areas. For example, if if you take a trip to North Korea, let's say, I'm going to call you and I'm going to say, "You don't know me, but I'm from the CIA, and I understand you just went to North Korea, and I was wondering if I could come over to your office for an hour and just ask you about your trip." 99.99% are going to say yes because they're patriots. So, I go to your office, I give you my business card, and we just chat about, you know, your impressions

[09:23] of the place and that kind of thing. >> Just to close off on this point, are there any skills that the CIA taught you or trained you in that you think are transferable for business that we haven't talked about? >> They they trained us also in lying and lie detection. That was actually quite important. You know, you at the CIA, you're you're a trained liar. And this is why the divorce rate's so high. It's the highest divorce rate of any uh entity in in the US government. It's

[09:55] it's upwards of 80%. >> Trained to lie. How do they train you to lie? >> Hi, my name is Dave Phillips. U I work for an import export company. >> But do they teach you the art of lying? >> Oh yeah. >> And what is the art? >> You know, it's it's hard to like it's hard to pin down. You just sort of have to have it. You have to have that ability. But the hard part is you have to keep the lies straight. I'll give you another example. I've never told this story before.

[10:25] I was asked by headquarters. I was overseas in the Middle East and I was asked by headquarters to target one specific officer of this foreign country. >> Target? >> Yeah. Hi, how are you? Oh, we've never met. I'm John. So nice to meet you. Let me take you to lunch. he had access to to information that we really needed. Uh so they told me to accidentally bump into him. So I surveiled him for a week

[10:55] and he was single and on Saturday morning he went to a coffee shop. So I go into the coffee shop and I'm looking at him and he's looking at me and I said, "I know you, Ministry of Foreign Affairs." He said, "Yes. Do I know you?" I said, "I am John from the American Embassy." "Oh, nice to nice to see you." I said, 'Hey, good to see you, too. You live in the area? Yes, I do. I said, 'Oh, so do I. I didn't. I lived like across town. Oh, fancy meeting you here at this coffee shop. I come here all the time. Do you? Yeah, he says. I come here all the time. Why don't you have a seat? He says. So, I sit down. At the end of

[11:28] the conversation, I go back to the embassy and I read a cable and I said, he's gay. I'm 100% sure he's gay. So, then we started this conversation, headquarters and I, how can we use that to our benefit? >> Did he have a wife? >> No. He was single, >> which was unusual at his age. >> How did you know he was gay? [snorts] >> Oh, I I just It was a vibe. Okay. [laughter] >> So, headquarters says, "We want you to pretend that you're gay." I said, "Oh, come on, you guys.

[11:59] No, we really need the information. You got to pretend that you're gay." I said, "Okay, I'll do it. I'll do it for Uncle Sam." So, I call him and I said, "Hey, I have two tickets to this show and I was hoping maybe you'd be free. Maybe we'll grab some sushi afterwards." He said, "Yeah, I'd love to." So, we go to the show. He thoroughly enjoyed it and we go for sushi afterwards and then we go out again and he says, "Why don't

[12:32] you come over to my place some night and I'll I'll make dinner." I said, 'Great.' So, I go over to his place. made a lovely dinner and then I thought, well, I have to invite him to my place. So, I told my wife, you're going to have to like get out. So, she left. I made dinner. I removed all the pictures of us together. And we had just gotten married, so we had like our wedding picture up and everything. At the dinner, he leaned in to kiss me and I instinctively backed off and he said, "Oh my god, I'm sorry. I thought you're gay." And I said, "Oh, no. I I am gay.

[13:06] I'm I'm I'm not into hairy guys. And he's like, "Oh, okay." I said, "I'm sorry. I think you're great, but I'm I'm not feeling it." >> You didn't kiss him? >> No. [laughter] So, we remained friends and in the end, he gave me the information because we were friends. And then he he opened up. He's like, "I can't tell anybody I'm gay. They suspect I am." and they passed me over for promotion. And my boss asked

[13:37] me, "Is there something in your personal life that you're not telling me? He knows I'm gay." I said, "Listen, your culture is backwards. Don't tell them you're gay. Just say that you've just never met the right woman." And inshallah, the right woman is coming, you know, in your life at some point. And I actually Googled him a couple of years ago, and he did become an ambassador finally. >> And he's still working in that country now. >> Mhm. Does that kind of stuff happen a lot in the CIA where you have to take one for the team? >> Yes. >> Have you ever taken one for the team?

[14:07] >> No. >> I'm not [laughter] sure you're telling the truth. >> Well, I it came close. >> When did it come close? >> So, I was overseas. I was a brand new operations officer and there was a woman in this foreign intelligence service who was the ugliest woman I've ever seen in my life. Like you want to avert your eyes like she came off the side of Notraam. She was a, you know, a stone gargoyle with a giant mole right here with a

[14:38] giant hair coming out of it. That kind of ugly. So, so I took her to lunch and she was very nice. And then I thought I did something kind of gutsy by C CIA standards because it was early on in our relationship. I invited her to go to lunch on a Saturday. Now, as a rule, the people in this country were not allowed to socialize with us privately. It had to be like their whole office, you know, or several of them together. So, I asked

[15:10] her just to meet me privately for lunch on Saturday. Don't tell anybody. >> So, she was someone from the Middle East. >> Yes. And she agreed. And I was like, "Oh my god, she said yes." And I ran back to the office. I was like, she said yes to a lunch on Saturday alone. And my boss says, "Okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to [ __ ] her." And I said, "What?" I said, "Have you ever seen her?" And he said, "I know, but we're the good guys, and you're going to have

[15:41] to take one for the team." And I go, "Oh my god." I said, I go, "Okay, I'll do it." And he says, "No, you're not going to [ __ ] We don't do that." I said, "I don't know. Oh, I just started this. I've never been an operations guy before. How am I supposed to know? He said, "Come on." He said, "Just develop her like a normal person. You don't have to [ __ ] her." I said, "Oh my god, you almost gave me a heart attack." >> But they they might not be mad if you

[16:11] did. >> So long as I reported it and I got the recruitment out of it. >> It wasn't illegal to act, you know, sleep with assets. >> Yeah, you're not supposed to sleep with assets. It has happened to a couple people I know and um they end up being pulled back to the United States. You have to sit in the penalty box if you do that. You're not supposed to do that. But yeah, it happens sometime. >> So sexion isn't a real thing. >> It can be. We don't. [gasps] [sighs] When I first got hired, one of the old-timers told me the story of about an

[16:42] Ayatollah that they were trying to recruit. And they set this Ayatollah up with a prostitute. And it was he had sex with this prostitute in a room where they had cameras everywhere. And so they bumped him afterwards. They bumped into him and said, "Hey, we have all these pictures." And they laid out the pictures of him, you know, butt naked with this prostitute. And he said, "Yeah, give me that one, an 8 by10. Give me two 5x7s of that one. How about some wallet size for this?" He's like, "Get out of here."

[17:14] And he said, you know, after that, we just stopped doing that. It doesn't work. When you recruit somebody, you really do need the relationship to be based on mutual trust.
