Title: Former CIA Officer John Kiriakou Explains the Part Everyone Missed
Show: The Carlos Watson Podcast
Date: 2026-04-27
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-wc8tRNoJk
Duration: 54:13

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[00:00] The CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies. After 9/11, everybody went nuts. Bush is saying, "No, we don't torture." He looks in the camera, "We do not torture." It's all a lie. The president was a bald-faced liar. If I'm convicted, what am I looking at? And they said, "12 to 18 years." Everybody comes out of prison with PTSD. And if you're a cop, you're going to get a beat down. I made strategic alliances from the minute I walked through the door. And so, why did you do it? Did you

[00:30] have a >> Because I was right. Every document that remains classified has the word Israel in it. >> [music] >> What do you think about Epstein? I believe [music] very strongly that Gaza. Does torture work? Do you work for you today? Are you a good liar? Hey guys, it's Carlos. Hey, we have got a terrific new episode all with John Kiriakou, the world-famous former CIA spy. And look, he's talking about all new things about how Louis Farrakhan, yes, that Louis Farrakhan, saved his

[01:01] life, a dramatic story about JFK's assassination, and his mind what's really going on in Iran, and the rest of that his wife is cheating story. That's right, you're going to find out what happened with Stelios. You don't want to miss it. All new John Kiriakou straight ahead. He is back, Emmy Award-winning journalist. [music] He's interviewed presidents, rebels, icons, thinkers. He is Carlos Watson. Did you stay in the Middle East your whole ride? Yeah. And even in Athens, I

[01:33] did 2 years in Athens, but that was besides 17 November, that was the Abu Nidal organization, the Libyans, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, PFLP General Command. >> that was going on in Greece? Oh, they were Greece was the most dangerous place in the world >> [music] >> in the late 1990s. We spent more money on security in Athens than we spent [music] in Beirut. People don't know that. >> Why was Greece so dangerous? >> Because the socialist government of

[02:04] Andreas Papandreou [music] told all the Arab terrorist groups, "You can pass through here if you [music] don't kill Greeks." They didn't care if they killed Americans. So, there we are. And so, [music] how good a spy were you? I'll tell you my station chief's words rather than my own. I've I'm very proud [music] of this. He put me aside one day and he said, "I've been in the agency for 25 years. And I've made nine quality recruitments.

[02:35] I remember every single one of them." He said, "You've [music] been here for 2 years and you've recruited five people. Badasses. Terrorists. >> [music] >> He said, "You have a knack for this." And I told him, "I have never in my life been so happy and fulfilled in a job as I am here." So, so for 15 years you were fired up to go to work. >> Yeah. I remember I remember [music] I was at the agency 8 months.

[03:06] And [music] it's August 2nd, 1990. The Iraqis have just invaded Kuwait 4 hours earlier. I get to the office early and my boss [music] says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to go to the White House." I said, "Cool. I've never been to the White House." I mean, >> [music] >> as a tourist I had, but I'd never been there like for business. We get in the [music] car. It's about 7:00 in the morning. Drive to the White House. This Marine is there at the door, the West Wing. He escorts us [music] in straight into the Oval Office. There's the president, the vice

[03:37] president, the national security [music] adviser, the CIA director, and then my boss and me. The president says, "Gentlemen, please sit." So, we all sit and I'm looking around and I remember saying to myself, "My friends [music] would never believe me if I told them where I was right now. Never believe me." So, the president says, [music] "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at me. And it took [music] me a second and I said, "Oh, um

[04:08] Mr. President, as you know, >> [music] >> Iraqi troops I have chills right now thinking of it, just remembering it. I said, "Iraqi troops crossed the Kuwaiti border uh at 2:00 in the morning. They seized [music] the entirety of Kuwait. The royal family has fled to Saudi Arabia, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah." And he says, "Do we know who is in [music] charge in Kuwait right now?" I said, "Yes, sir, we do. The Iraqis made an announcement that Dr. Ahmed Khatib uh is now the occupation [music] governor of Iraq."

[04:40] "Do we know anything about him?" I said, "Yes, sir." I had actually written an article about him a month earlier just because he was interesting [music] to me. I said, "Yes, sir. He's a medical doctor. He hates the royal family because his mother was a slave [music] uh in the household of the royal family. They had slavery until 1955 [music] in the uh on the Arabian Peninsula. So, I said, "She's a Sudan- She was a Sudanese slave. Uh to sort of make up for it once slavery ended, they sent

[05:10] [music] Ahmed to the American University of Beirut. He trained there as a doctor. But, his college roommate was George Habash. And together [music] they founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." And the vice president [music] says, "Jesus Christ!" like that. And the president just goes like this and he says, "Gentlemen, thank you. That'll be enough. I need to think [music] about this." Well, later that afternoon, Margaret Thatcher [music] famously now called

[05:41] him. He genuinely didn't know what to do. [music] And you're talking about Papa Bush. Papa Bush. Yeah. And she said, "George, now's not the time to go wobbly." Next thing you know, [music] we have six aircraft carrier battle groups on on their way to the Gulf, >> [music] >> quarter of a million ground troops, and we liberated Kuwait >> [music] >> February 1991. Wow. Wow. And and you played a role in that at How were you 30 yet? I was 26.

[06:13] And did And did you Was there any part of you that's like, "I shouldn't be here. I don't really know >> god. >> saying"? Oh, everybody has imposter syndrome. All of us did. I remember thinking, you know, "Why me? Who am I? I'm just some guy from Pennsylvania." And here I am sitting with the president, telling the president what to do. But, you know, I I liked it. I enjoyed it. It was exciting. I was on a plane once

[06:44] from Milan to Sofia, Bulgaria. I never talk to people on planes. I just, you know, put in my earbuds, read a book, whatever. You did that purposely not to blow your Not to blow my cover. Okay. And there's this guy next to me, this Italian guy, and he's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah the whole flight. And And I'm trying to give him one-word answers. And What they taught us in training is they ask you what you do for a living, just tell them something that's so boring that they don't ask follow-up

[07:15] questions. >> [laughter] >> Cuz usually I'd say, "Oh, I I'm involved in training. We we train people, you know, who do international trade and import-export." And And people are like, "Oh, that sounds great." And then that's the end of it. So, this guy ta-da, ta-da, ta-da, finally I said, "Okay, look. I smuggle women and cigarettes from Eastern Europe. Are you happy now?" And he goes, "Well, I don't think I approve." I said, "I didn't ask your approval." And then he just kind of sat there like

[07:45] this the rest of the flight. And I thought to myself, "Finally. But, at least I didn't blow my cover." >> Yeah. Yeah. Hey guys, I think a bunch of you know that I'm on a health journey these days. I'm trying to cook different, maybe try and exercise a little bit differently, trying to walk more, even trying to sleep better. But, even with all of that, my favorite cousin kept pushing me. She said you should consider supplements. And if I'm honest, I was a little bit hesitant. I don't know whether it's because I was busy or that I just didn't want more stuff in my body. But, recently I found something really beautiful. If you

[08:15] haven't tried Dose before, this is a wonderful supplement. It's about 2 oz. A lot of folks say it tastes like mango with a little bit of kick in it. It's got beautiful things like turmeric and ginger and lemon, all sorts of goodness in it. And it's great if you've got cholesterol issues like yours truly or even if you're just thinking about kind of general liver health. Look, I'm no doctor, but I know that good stuff is good stuff. And so, I hope you'll consider this. And if you do, tell them that Carlos sent you. Go ahead and get 35% off. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. And enjoy

[08:46] it. And so, your rising or you on your way to becoming the director of the CIA? Yeah, I wish. I mean I mean were you on that trajectory? Like would Like would someone reviewing the the rising young superstars have have tabbed you as one of the rising young superstars? >> No, that is a very, very political position. And there have only been three, I guess, directors over the years who were career CIA officers. Everybody else has been an outsider. A former FBI director, lots of generals,

[09:17] which I think is always like historically been a big mistake. >> And why would they want generals? I don't know. You get four shiny stars on your shoulder and they think that you're Superman, you can do anything. And it was my experience that people became four-star generals by saying, "Yes, sir." You don't want somebody in that position to say, "Yes, sir." You want somebody in that position who can say, "Mr. President, let me tell you why that's a terrible idea." Right? You need somebody with the the wherewithal to stand up to the policy

[09:47] makers. So, it's so clear to me that you still love and revere the work that you did and that you were one of the fortunate people in this life who actually got to do something that they both dreamed of. I thoroughly enjoyed my career. Yeah, you you you enjoyed it. >> But after 9/11, everybody went nuts. They just went nuts. They acted like the law, whether domestic or or international, meant nothing to us. We were the good guys, we had been wronged,

[10:17] we were going to take revenge. And you're either with us or you're against us. And if you're against us, then get out. I know that torture and the question around torture ends up becoming a place where you you you raise your hand and where you object. And I know that that ultimately metastasized, but just give us a version of that for people who don't know the story. Well, I was one of 14 people asked if I wanted to be trained in the use of what they called enhanced interrogation techniques. I was the only one of the 14

[10:48] who said no. I believed it was illegal. Besides being immoral and unethical, I thought it was illegal. It was illegal. It was clearly illegal. Any can read the law that we wrote, the the Federal Torture Act of 1946. Anybody can read the the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Cruel and Inhumane Treatment. And I mean, it it doesn't get any clearer clearer than that. Take me take me through torture. So, you're one of 14 people who they asked they they ask, "Do you want to get

[11:19] trained in this?" And you're like, "No, it's illegal." Take Take me Yeah. Buddy of mine, uh in the Counterterrorism Center, who happened to be a psychiatrist, MD, PhD, and a Brigadier General in the Army. And we go to the same church, we're in the same men's group. He said to me one day, "Buddy, you know, um you know, they call you the human rights guy behind your back." And I said, "Yeah, I know." And he said, "You know that's not a compliment, right?"

[11:50] And I said, "Steve, I'm right and they're wrong. And I'm comfortable with my position." Well, that was not the popular position to take. And so, they kind of squeezed me out. But I had done so well in Pakistan that I became the Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director for Operations. So, um my career just continued to go straight up. So, that was a big

[12:21] deal though to raise your hand on a question of principle. >> one. And you and your career still keeps going well? Because I had a rabbi who My dad My dad always says that My dad always says, "You don't need a mentor, you need a rabbi or an angel." >> That's it. Yeah. He sat above the guys making these torture decisions. And he said, "Don't worry about it." He said, "You did the right thing." He called it a slippery slope. He said, "You know how these guys are. Somebody's going to kill a prisoner and then

[12:52] they're going to go to they're going to go to prison." And what exactly were they doing? Like I've heard the word waterboarding, but like for someone who again has never been in the room. Okay, so let's say you are laying on this slab of of granite right here, but it's slightly elevated, so your feet are a little bit higher than your than your head. They'll wrap your your face and head in material, a towel, you know, whatever. Tie you down so you can't move and then pour water on your face.

[13:22] So, water gets in your mouth, you start to drown. W- With in the case of Abu Zubaydah, he actually did drown. His heart stopped. He had to be revived so they can torture him more. What is that? That's who we want to be. Right? Ronald Reagan said we're a shining city on a hill. We're this shining beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. Are we really? But I know some people and I'm assuming Dick Cheney types came to you and said,

[13:54] "Come on, John. Cut the shit." And I said I said, "If you want to be for torture, knock yourself out, but you have to change the law because the law is clear. We executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American POWs in the Second World War. That was a death penalty crime. In January of 1968, the Washington Post ran a front-page photograph of an American soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner.

[14:26] Uh Robert S. McNamara was the Secretary of Defense. He ordered an investigation. That soldier was arrested. He was convicted of torture and sent to Leavenworth for 20 years. But then in 2002, uh no, it's fine. It's all legal. Does torture work? No. See, and that's the biggest thing. Even if you think, "Well, you know, these guys are really bad. They mean us harm. They're murderers, mass murderers." Okay, fine. It doesn't work. So then, you know, when people that

[14:56] we're torturing give us this meaningless information, we bog down analysts for months trying to get through it. What's nonsense, what's real, you know, what's a half-truth, because they're going to tell you anything they think you want to hear just to get you to stop torturing them. So, when people tell us that they did get real stuff for some of these top guys, you're saying that that's >> It's >> That they did not get actionable FBI got the actionable intelligence. And the way they did it was by saying, "Would you

[15:27] like a cup of coffee? If you're really good, you tell me what I want to know, I'll let you write a letter to your mom and dad. Would you like a cigarette or an orange?" And you establish a rapport with people and treat them with respect and the next thing you know, you can't shut them up. E- Even seasoned hardcore Especially seasoned hardcore terrorists because they know that the gig is up. So, there I I said this to Abu Zubaydah. I said, "Listen, I am the nicest guy that you're going to

[16:00] meet in this experience. My colleagues are not nice like I am. You know you that your life is over. So, what's left of it, it can be easy or it can be terrible. It's up to you." How do you end up in jail? How is that possible? Brian Ross of of ABC News called me and said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah. I said that was absolutely untrue. I was kind Zubaydah. I was the only person. >> Did he really have it or do you think he

[16:30] was bullshitting you? He was baiting you. No, he had a source. I ended up going to work for Brian at ABC. I was the counterterrorism consultant at ABC for 3 years. He was telling the truth. So, he said, "Well, you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself." I had never spoken to a journalist before. I I didn't know that was an old trick that they use. So, the Red Cross, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch had all come out with papers, with studies saying the CIA's got a torture program.

[17:00] And they kept saying, "No, no, no, there's no torture." Bush is saying, "No, we don't torture." He looks in the camera, "We do not torture." It's all a lie. So, I called Brian. I said, "I'll give you your interview." And I decided, "Whatever he asks me, I'm going to tell the truth." Well, I I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official policy, and that the policy had been personally approved by the president himself. The president was a bald-faced liar. You said that? Yeah. And the president

[17:31] said the next day, it was kind of funny to me. He said, "I don't know this man. I've not met this man. I don't know why this man would throw me under the bus." And was it true? Did you know W? No, I had never met him. But he was a war criminal. So, the FBI began investigating me the very next day, the day after the Did Did you know that they were that by virtue of you saying that that was going to happen? Like had you been in the apparatus long enough? >> Yes. And so, why did you do it? Did you

[18:02] have a >> Because I was right. They were criminals. They were breaking the law. We are either going to be a nation of laws or we're not. We're going to be a nation of chaos. And I don't want to be the citizen of a country that exists in a state of chaos. One of my former bosses called me and said, "You know the shit's going to hit the fan now, right?" And I said, "I know. I'm ready for it." And then a retired Deputy Director of the CIA emailed me. I saved the email as a souvenir.

[18:34] And he said, "You've chosen a difficult road. I'm glad somebody did. I only wish I had had the courage to do it myself." So, they investigated me for a year and the Justice Department determined that because we have a law in this country saying that it is illegal to classify a crime, and torture is a crime, that I hadn't committed any crime.

[19:04] Three weeks later, Barack Obama becomes president and a couple of weeks after that, John Brennan becomes the Deputy National Security Advisor for Counterterrorism. John and I always hated each other. And he was one of the fathers of the torture program. He was the Executive Director of the CIA when they came up with it. He was the number three in the CIA. He sent a memo to Eric Holder, the new Attorney General, saying, "Charge him with espionage." And Holder wrote back and said, "My people don't think he committed

[19:34] espionage." And Brennan wrote back and said, "Charge him anyway and make him defend himself." They investigated me for 3 more years, tapped my phones, intercepted my emails, followed me everywhere I went for 3 years. >> You were aware of this? >> I was not. I thought it was over because we got a declination letter from DOJ saying we found no crime, you're free to go. >> But but hold on, you're super sophisticated guy, you followed people yourself. >> I was an instructor in surveillance. And you weren't aware that they were following you for 3 years? They were that good? Not around my own house. It's

[20:06] just I wasn't looking for it. Overseas, I was constantly looking in my side view mirrors, constantly. Not in Arlington, Virginia. >> And you didn't have any friends whispering to you saying, "Hey John." Nobody said a word. So they arrested me in January of 2012, charged me with five felonies including three counts of espionage, which can carry the death penalty, I might add. And um they waited until I went bankrupt from legal fees and then they dropped the espionage charges.

[20:37] I hadn't committed espionage. Telling the news that the CIA's committing crimes, that's not espionage. So how do you end up inside though? How Because they told me that they had dropped the charges without prejudice. And if I didn't take a plea, they had to save face. If I didn't take a plea to a lesser charge, they were going to recharge me with espionage. If I'm convicted of espionage, what am I looking at? And they said 12 to 18 years. Take the deal.

[21:08] One of my a little angry with me and he right in my face and he said, "You know what your problem is? Your problem is you think this is about justice and it's not about justice. It's about mitigating damage. Take the deal." So I took the deal. In retrospect, did you do the right thing? >> Yeah. You should have taken the >> I had five kids. You should have taken the deal. >> Absolutely. Because You can't win. They have a literally unlimited budget. They charged me in a federal court where

[21:40] no national security defendant has ever won a case. And overall, the DOJ, according to ProPublica, wins 98.2% of its cases. Yeah. It's crazy and most Americans don't know that. >> Yeah. You don't have a chance. The director of counterterrorism at the CIA the the night before I went to prison tweeted at me. And he said, "Don't drop the soap. Haha with a laughing emoji." He he tweeted that? >> Yeah. And I gave myself an hour or two to calm

[22:12] down. And then I tweeted back at him and I said, "Jose, I am on the right side of history and you are not." And then I went to prison the next morning. And so what was prison like for you for as for a former CIA officer? >> Groundhog Day. I was I was lucky in that I used my CIA training to stay safe. I I made strategic alliances from the minute I walked through the door. Was there a chance you would not have been safe? Oh, yeah. Really? People are generally pretty stupid in prison and CIA, FBI, you're

[22:44] all cops to them. And if you're a cop, you're going to get a beatdown. But one of the Italians God bless him. I just talked to him this morning. He um he took it upon himself. He saw an article in the New York Times saying I was going to arrive at that prison and he took it upon himself to go to every single one of the Italians and say, "There's a guy coming here. He's a CIA guy. He's not an FBI agent. FBI are cops and rats. The CIA protected us from the Muslims." And they're like, "Oh, okay." And they adopted me.

[23:16] And then the Nation of Islam I say in my second book this perfectly timed statement from Louis Farrakhan saying that I was a hero of the Muslim people for standing up for human rights. It saved me from the Muslims. So the Aryans called me the Muslim hunter cuz this rumor got around that I I was a an assassin killing Muslims. The Muslims loved me cuz I stood up for human rights. All that left was the Mexican cartel guys and one of them asked me if I would

[23:47] write his appeal and I did. He lost. He was guilty. But I didn't charge him anything and so he told all the other cartel guys that I was a good guy. Did you ever think that your life was in danger while you were inside? If it ever was, it was cuz of the crooked violent guards, not from any of the prisoners. So you get out and you're a normal healthy person or No, I you know, this is the thing about being released from prison. You think you can step back into your life again and you can't. Your life is never going to be the same. Because

[24:19] cuz you're not the same. You know, everybody comes out of prison with PTSD, everybody. I can't tell you how many times I woke up in the middle of the night having the same dream that it's count time and I find myself outside the prison and I have to figure out how to get back in to be in my bunk in time for count time or they're going to send me to solitary and I can't figure out how to get back inside. I dreamed for 2 years after I got out. But then, you know, it wears off and

[24:50] you start thinking about patching together a career and my marriage didn't survive it, but um Sorry. Yeah, yeah, me too. Thank you. But uh Who are you to Who are you today? You know, I I like who I am. I'm I'm not perfect. Um I can be a an judgmental Um but on this one issue I was right and they were wrong. Is the

[25:20] Trump team better on torture and these kinds of issues? They are in an odd way. Trump sometimes makes the wrong statements. "I'm going to bring back waterboarding and a hell of a lot worse." No, you're not. You're talking tough, but no, he never did any of that stuff. He made a mistake twice in his first term appointing very, very bad people as CIA director. Very bad. Like Mike Pompeo, oh my god. The only person

[25:51] less popular than Mike Pompeo at the CIA was Mrs. Mike Pompeo. Let me tell you. I got that from one of his bodyguards. And then Gina Haspel >> Wait wait wait, why? Why? You. Go get my my dry cleaning. You. Go walk my dog. They're like, "Lady, we don't work for you. We're protecting your husband. We're not going to go get your dry cleaning and walk your dog." Um the other one was bloody Gina Haspel. We called her bloody Gina for a good reason. She flew out to the secret site to sit in on one of the torture sessions

[26:23] just because she could. Just to sit there and enjoy it and take it all in. What kind of sick person does something like that? >> So so what does that say to you and and and how do you communicate that to your son if you're only going to have one last conversation with him? What are you going to say to him >> Yeah. if this is true? There's a there's a saying in ancient Greek um that translates to know thyself. Right? You really have to trust yourself. Of course, we all make

[26:54] mistakes, very big mistakes. I have, certainly. But you have to trust your gut. Like listen, deep down, we all know the difference between right and wrong, all of us. The hard part is actually implementing the right when it's not expedient. Hey Bev. So I wanted to follow up on Vegas. When are you thinking about that for the trip? What days? So I'm thinking either the 20th or the 21st. Does that work for

[27:24] you? I think it does as long as it's early enough in the month. I think that probably works. >> Wait one second. Um do you mind giving me that Dose please? Wait, what did you just say? It's this really wonderful um supplement for cholesterol called Dose. Have you seen it? This is so crazy. I feel like I'm literally Bev seeing this everywhere. It is wild. >> in Turkey because a friend told me. It actually tastes like mango, a little bit of spicy cuz it has turmeric. It helps with cholesterol. Okay. All right. Well, I obviously need to do that. That damn Dose is everywhere.

[27:58] Hey man. Hey man, how you doing? Good. Good. How you been? I've been doing great, man. Is that you? Oh, that's us. Oh, wow. Are you using that? Yes. Man, everybody is, man. It is crazy. I I had not heard about it until a couple months ago and now I feel like everybody's using it. Damn, I may need to start trying it. Oh, we do. Yeah. Like that. >> You want one? You have it here? Man, stop, man. I got just what you need. >> Okay. All right. Oh, you got the little fancy things, huh?

[28:29] >> Okay. All right. >> Okay, little shot of something. Mhm. Okay. You Can I actually have this? Man, come on, man. All right. Okay. All right. You don't have to tell me once. >> What's step back and watch out. You sure this is good for me? Oh, it's good. Okay. All right. It'll be good to you. Tastes a little like mango. Okay. But with a little bite. Okay. It's like this has some pepper in this. >> Ain't nothing like getting bit. >> [laughter] >> What made you start um start on this?

[29:00] Man, I'm I'm 60 I'm getting ready to be 65 years old on Monday. Happy birthday early. >> That's right. So this is Do you think this is giving you a little something? Oh man, it's going to be a part of my life for a long time. Yeah, man, what what do you want, man? Uh same thing. Same thing. Same thing. Make me beautiful. Well. >> [music] >> Bob Kennedy told me a story that just sticks right here in the front of my head. He said on November 22nd 1963

[29:31] that terrible day, his mother picked him up from school early. He was in sixth or seventh grade. She picked him up from school early and brought him back home. They lived in McLean, Virginia at a house that they called Hickory Hill. So the Kennedys were very, very close to the CIA director and his wife, John McCone. And Mrs. McCone had died of breast cancer 6 months earlier. And the Kennedys were worried about Director

[30:02] McCone. They were worried that he was going to hurt harm himself. And so they invited him to dinner every single night, 7 days a week. And after dinner, he and Bobby Kennedy Sr. would go for a swim. So, when Bob Jr. and his mom get to the house, he said he got out of the car, his dad and Director McCone were standing in the driveway. And when he walked past them, he heard his father say, "Tell me your people didn't do this." And McCone said, "I don't know who did it."

[30:32] He didn't say, "Of course my people didn't do it." He said, "I don't know who did it." And I think that what with what we know now, I think it's safe to assume that there were elements of the CIA. It was not an official, formal CIA policy, you know, XV kill the president. I think that there there were elements of the CIA uh that were probably involved. And I'll add one other thing. When I was stationed in Pakistan, the oldest of the old-timers that I worked with

[31:04] was this legendary officer. To tell you the truth, when I got there, I didn't get his last name. So, I only called him Jean. Hi John, this is Jean. Jean, this is John. I said, "Hi Jean, nice to nice to know you. Good to work with you." And I was there for weeks until somebody said, I asked a question and somebody said, "Ask Gately." I said, "Who's Gately?" Jean. I said, "Jean, is Jean Gately?" He said, "Yeah, who'd you think he was?" I said, "The commander of the Bay of Pigs operation is working for me."

[31:37] And he said, "Yeah." So, we all lived in the same guest house. It was a very small guest house. So, we would have breakfast together, go to the office, have dinner together. So, I went up to him and I said, "Jean, you're Jean Gately? You commanded the Bay of Pigs?" And he says to me, "Fucking Kennedy. We could have won that thing." And that was the very first time I ever saw that kind of that flash of anger. And I thought, "Oh, I I understand

[32:08] 1963." Do you think LBJ was involved? You know, to me that just seems like a bridge too far. But the people that I know who believe that LBJ was involved do have some compelling evidence, I guess. And what what do you say about the Israelis being involved? I I've come to believe that the Israelis were involved. And why? What what would what would their stake have been in it and their success? >> livid that John Kennedy not only would

[32:38] not give them a nuclear weapon, but would have not allowed them to develop a nuclear weapon. But wouldn't there be enormous risk for them in taking out an American leader? >> Oh, yeah. Enormous, like incalculable risk. Yes. And so why would you do it anyhow? Because they saw it as a matter of their own survival. Remember, the whole idea was that the Arabs were going to push them into the sea. There wouldn't be one Jew left. And so >> Oh oh oh, hence from the river to the sea. From the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

[33:11] Yes. Yeah. >> Wow. Wow. >> I I'll add something. There I have a friend at the White House. And we were talking, I'm going to say this was this was almost a year ago. And I said offhandedly, "Thank God the president released all the remaining Kennedy documents cuz now we know all this stuff about Oswald and James Angleton that we never knew." And he said to me, "He didn't release all of it." And I said, "Yeah, he did, kind of famously so."

[33:42] He said, "No, he didn't." I said, "What's left?" And he said, "Every document that remains classified has the word Israel in it." And I said, "Damn it. I was hoping they weren't involved." But but let me ask you this because again, you are a super sophisticated guy. Like if I heard someone say that they released all the documents, whether it's about Epstein, whether it's about Kennedy, whether it's about whatever, I don't really believe that they

[34:13] released all of >> Just like I didn't believe it with Clinton, with Bush Bush II rather, with Obama. You know, Congress passed this law saying you have to release all the documents. Even Biden. But Trump was just so public about his desire to release the information. You know, like Hillary Clinton was with the UFO information. On my first day, I'm going to sign an executive order, we're going to know about the UFOs. I

[34:44] was like, okay, finally, finally. Plus, my God, 60 years had passed. And now, after 60 years, it's just too much. Did you Did anyone ever try to flip you? No. And you know, you're trained to expect it to come. When Robert Hanssen, the FBI traitor, who was also the chief of counterintelligence in the FBI, when he started ratting out sources and they started getting executed, as the chief of counterintelligence, he

[35:16] said, "It's that CIA guy, Brian Kelly." Brian Kelly being the chief of counterintelligence at the CIA. So, poor Brian, they put him on a leave without pay. They surround his house 24 hours a day with FBI agents. Other FBI agents go to Oregon, where his daughter was working in a nursing home, to tell her, "You have to get your father to confess because if we arrest him without a confession, we're going to ask for the death penalty." And Brian's like, "I don't know what's

[35:46] happening here. It's not me." And then it turned out it was Hanssen. How long did it take for that to get unraveled? >> A year and a half. Wow. So, what what is it about the director of counterintelligence role that makes a person particularly susceptible to flip? You have to be like so clean in your personal life that it it has to be like epic, noteworthy. No drinking, no drugs,

[36:18] no gambling, no no speeding, no cheating on your wife. Literally nothing that can be used against you. You know, there's a famous story they told us in training about uh an ayatollah that they wanted to uh flip. And so they hired a prostitute to sort of just bump into him and take him back to a hotel. And they, you know, in flagrante delicto, they took pictures from hidden cameras. And then they

[36:49] confronted him. And they laid out all these pictures of him butt naked with this prostitute. And he said, "Oh, I'll take an 8 by 10 of that one and two 5 [laughter] by 7s of that one." Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> And that's when they realized, you know, we got to we got to get our house in order here. Wow. Yeah. Wow. It it may not flip an Iranian, but it it could flip one of us. Is it the pressure of cuz people like me only get to see it on TV or in the movies. Is it Is that job that pressurized meaning that if there's

[37:22] a couple you hadn't had the kind of heavy-duty job you had, could you guys have worked through it? Or does that job do such damage to marriages? And and then also it shakes your emotions so that when you do come to a mountain like that, you can't get over it. No, that's that's a good question. And I'll I'll answer it by telling you a story. So, when I was in Pakistan, I was the chief of counterterrorism operations. Extraordinarily high high stress, high

[37:53] threat job. And the hours were ridiculous. Like if if you worked only 12 hours a day, people would want to know, "You feeling okay? Like what's what's the problem?" Right? So, I would get in around 7:00 in the morning thinking I'm going to work until 8:00 or 9:00 anyway. So, I'd get in at 7:00 in the morning. We had something called a trunk line where the unclassified phones in the office were connected to a Washington exchange.

[38:24] So, even though I'm in Pakistan, I've got a 202 number. And I I can dial a 202 number like a local call. So, I would get in before everybody else and I would always call my then girlfriend, my post-divorce girlfriend, who became my second wife. She was a senior CIA officer. So, um I would always end our conversations by saying, "Okay, love you." Mwah. And hang up. And one of the old-timers, there were seven old men who worked for me.

[38:55] They were all like very senior senior intelligence service level officers. All of them had been at least director of Near Eastern operations. One of them had been the deputy director of the CIA. And they all volunteered to come back as contractors after 9/11 just for patriotic reasons. But if you're a contractor, you can't have a management position. So, they worked for me, which is That must have been interesting. I learned more from those guys in 6 months than I learned in the rest of the entirety of my career. But anyway, one of them heard me finish

[39:27] the call and hang up. And he says, "So, are there wedding bells in the future?" And I said, "Oh, I don't know. I just got divorced and I'm kind of afraid of being a two-time loser. And he says, "Two-time loser? Jim, how many times have you been married?" He says, "Four for me." "Dave, how many times have you been married?" "I got five." "Bill, how many times you been married?" "Three." And he says, "And I got four. Don't worry about being a two-time

[39:58] loser. It comes with the job." Well, the truth is that the CIA has the highest divorce rate in all of government because you are trained to lie, and you lie all day every day, and a lot of guys can't turn it off when they go home at night. >> And and so I was watching another conversation you were having. If you don't mind me asking, how did that end? How did the first marriage end? Um in April of 2000 Right.

[40:30] >> [clears throat] >> we were living in Athens. Tough tough assignment for me because we were critical threat for for terrorism. Athens, Greece to be clear, not cuz there is an Athens, Ohio. It's Ohio. I think that's where your boy Joey Burrow's from. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So, um I'm shaving, getting ready for work, and my oldest son was 6 years old at the time. He's sitting on the floor next to me watching me shave. And I'm asking him, "So, what are you going to do today? What are you going to learn today? You know, what what are you going to play at the at recess?" And then he says

[41:00] to me, "I told Mommy she shouldn't kiss Uncle Stelios on the lips. She should only kiss you on the lips, and she told me to mind my own business." I felt like I had been electrocuted. So, I wiped the shaving cream off my face. I went into the bedroom. She was sleeping, and I kicked the bed. And she says, "What?" I said, "Who the is Stelios?" She said, "Where did you hear that name?" I said, "Who is he?" And then she said, "Don't believe

[41:31] everything a 6-year-old says." And I said, "I'm going to leave before I do something that I'm going to regret for the rest of my life." And so I got in the car and I went to work. And um that afternoon she started calling me, like calling me every 5 seconds. And I just would let it go to voicemail. Finally, the secretary came into my office, and she said, um "John, your wife's on the phone, and she's crying." I said, "Yeah, she she should be crying." And she said, "No, no, she was in a car

[42:01] accident, and she's injured." I was like, "For God's sake." So, I she was calling my phone again, so I picked it up, and I said, "What?" And she said that I'd gotten in an accident, and I'm injured, and the kids are crying, and so I drove up to the accident scene. And the car was She was first in in a left-hand turn lane to make a left. There was a guy five cars back. Greeks are very impatient drivers. She went to make the left. He came from the back and

[42:31] just T-boned her and pushed the car up onto the sidewalk and demolished it, and she broke her wrist, and it was a big mess. So, I go up there and uh get out of my car, my fully armored, you know, BMW 540 with, you know, my two guns. And uh and I said to him, "Steliano, what happened what what happened here?" And he gets all excited. He says, "Your wife She's a whore."

[43:04] I said, "My wife is a whore?" And then He was in a coma for quite a while. 3 days. Oh, you had that that built up. All Any other day I would have let it go. Yeah. Any other day. So, I got arrested. Right. Oh, you did? Oh, yeah. And I >> How do you arrest a CIA station chief? >> No, no, I wasn't the chief. Um I I uh I said, "Look, I have diplomatic immunity. So, you know, I'm sorry. I'm wrong. I

[43:35] admit I'm wrong, but I have diplomatic immunity." And they're like, "Okay, just sit in the cell." They left the cell door open, and they let me keep my gun, which was nuts. But then um they brought me in, and um the guy he was clearly concussed. He hadn't yet kind of, you know, faded out. That was at the hospital later, but uh he was sitting there in a chair, and he's just like you could see like the the birds tweeting, you know, that from the cartoons?

[44:07] And uh he says to me, "So, what happened?" So, I told the story. And then this is the police captain for the whole station. And he says to the to the guy, "Is that true? You called his wife a whore?" And he said, "I Yes, we got in an accident. She she yelled at me. I called her a I did not know that it is a crime to call a man's wife a in Greece." And so they charged him. Wow.

[44:37] And I said, "Listen, I'm I can't get charged cuz I have diplomatic immunity, but but in good conscience, you know, please don't charge him. I [clears throat] I beat him like almost to death." Um so, they ended up dropping the charge. He filed a lawsuit against me later, but because I had immunity, it was just thrown out. And uh the only fight I've ever been in in my entire life. And she said, "I want a divorce. I'm not living like this anymore." And so the plane landed in New York. I

[45:09] caught a connection to Washington. She caught a connection to Cleveland. And that was the end of it. Was that the end of it for Stelios, too? Yeah. >> [sighs] >> Yeah, I uh They didn't wind up together. No, no. The guy could barely read. That was uh no. [laughter] She was feeling lonely, and it was because I was so focused on the job. It was very hard to maintain a marriage in the CIA. >> Very much so. Very, very much so. Are you a good liar? I think I am a good liar. Yeah.

[45:42] Why? Why am I a good liar? Because deep down I believe we're the good guys. And lying in service of my country was something that I I became good at. I remember my first operational boss telling me, "As a general rule," he said, "never lie to medical, finance, or security. They'll put you in prison. Never lie to me. I'll put you in the hospital."

[46:12] So, assume that I'm I'm one of your sons, or assume that I'm a close brother of yours, and we haven't seen each other for 20 years, and you're prepping me for the rest of my life. This may be the only conversation we're going to get to have. So, whatever truths you have, you're not going to get to tell me 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Like give me give me the stuff now. I would tell you that again, this is going to sound cynical, so I apologize in advance. Tell you that it's been my experience that the world is usually not what it seems.

[46:44] Right? You can never get inside the head of another human being. You just can't. We may think we really truly know somebody. We don't. We never know what's going on. We never know what's going on in people's private lives. Um and so you always have to be wary, and you have to be self-protective. The CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies. People not sociopaths. Sociopaths have no conscience. People with sociopathic tendencies do have a conscience.

[47:15] They do react in a polygraph exam. But because we believe we're the good guys, we're happy to work in legal, moral, and ethical gray areas. But sociopaths easily slip through the the process because you can't trip them up on a polygraph. They have no conscience. So, they don't react. That's the problem. Sociopaths slip through. Now, you know

[47:46] as well as anybody that that sociopaths [clears throat] are common among um C-suite officials in companies. That's how they got to be CEO, CFO, COO on the backs of the people around them. They're not the nicest people in the world, but they're not criminals, either, because they can they can self-regulate. Some people can't self-regulate, especially when you convince yourself that you have the power and authority of the CIA behind you. You think you can get away with anything.

[48:18] And you can't. So, there's a lot more criminality at the CIA than you might imagine. A lot more criminality. It's not just some idiot spending $200 on his CIA credit card to buy a prostitute. It's people carrying out real crimes. So so Tucker Carlson, who I know you know, I know you're friendly with, says that he's And I think his dad or someone was in the intelligence um said that he's come to believe that the intelligence community is actively

[48:49] undermining society. I've come to the same conclusion. Because now the CIA is weaponized against people that, you know, don't fit the mold. Whether you're John who says, "Hey, wait a minute, you know, there's a law against torture. We probably shouldn't be doing this." Prison for you. Or whether you're Donald Trump, like, "Ah, we don't like this guy. We can't control him. Ah, let's let's steal the election." What do you think about Epstein?

[49:21] I believe very strongly that he was an an Israeli access agent. Did he work for the CIA? No way. Why do you say no way? >> To to spy on whom? The CIA's job is to collect foreign intelligence. What foreign intelligence did he have? He's spying on Bill Clinton and Bill Gates and Prince Andrew? That's the Israelis. Did he commit suicide? I believe he did. You really believe he did? >> People don't realize that in the Bureau of Prisons everybody has his head up his ass.

[49:51] The cameras never work. The guards are always sound asleep. This happens all the time. These suicides, they happen like literally every day in American prisons. Every day. You know, when the only qualifications to be a prison guard are you have to be working on a GED or better and no felony convictions, you know, you get what you pay for. I want to do one last thing, rapid fire. Maduro of Venezuela. You know, I'm of two minds of Maduro. First of all, it's very bad form to just

[50:24] invade a country and snatch its leader and then, you know, kill 80 people and leave. It's very bad form. It's a violation of international law. It is not a violation of US law. We've had a law in the United States since 1985 allowing us to do exactly that, thanks to the Kiki Camarena case. Um I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it. Maduro's, you know, not not a nice guy, but this whole drug thing is grossly overstated. You want to invade a country, invade Mexico. That's where the problem is.

[50:54] Gaza. Ah. I stand wholeheartedly with the people of Gaza. Um the Israelis have murdered and starved as many people as they possibly could. Listen, October 7th was a terrible, terrible event. It was a terrorist attack perpetrated by a terrorist group, but your response can't be to kill everybody. Right? At least 70,000

[51:25] people, almost all of whom have been civilians and then mostly women and children. Okay, that's not a policy. That's genocide. And it's a violation of international law. And who should know that better than the Israelis? And where do you think this ends? I think with continued ethnic cleansing of Gaza. The policy is to drive them out, make them emigrate and they don't care to where, just get out and let Israeli settlers resettle Gaza.

[51:56] Last question, your favorite book. It's it's a book that nobody's ever heard of. It's called How Can I Keep From Singing? Uh it's it's the biography of Pete Seeger, the the folk singer. Pete became, you know, besides my dad and my grandfather, Pete was the most important man in my life. It's funny. We we exchanged Christmas cards for years and then when I got in trouble, he rallied to my to my support.

[52:26] And he said to me one time, "You and I have the we have the greatest differences in our backgrounds. Like what why what is it about me that is attracting you?" And I said, "Pete, you stood up to them. In 1958, you stood up to them. All you had to say is, 'On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer your question, Senator.' And you didn't. You said, 'Based on the

[52:58] First Amendment, I don't have to tell you with whom I associate.' Everybody's pleading the Fifth, he pleaded the First and they sent him to prison for it. The it was overturned on appeal, but he wasn't afraid of them. And so, I wanted to be like Pete. Hey guys, that was a hell of a conversation. I mean, John Kiriakou was being super modest. He clearly is a guy who was a star within the CIA on his way to becoming director of the CIA one day and ultimately ended up with a very

[53:29] different life, life in prison, life in infamy, life restarting in many ways, uh but an incredibly wise and insightful and clearly skillful guy. As I told him later on, maybe one of the best five or six storytellers I've ever met and I've [music] met some really good storytellers. Hope you enjoyed this. Uh hit us in the comments. Uh tell me what you thought about this and whether or not we should have more comments like this. Um up next in the future, I've got a former KGB spy who's going to stop by the [music] Carlos podcast. You're not

[54:00] going to want to miss that. See you soon.
