Title: John Kiriakou Ex CIA Spy Tells All
Show: Kate Dalley Radio
Date: 2017-08-11
URL: https://soundcloud.com/katedalleyradio/0811john-kiriakou-ex-cia-spy-tells-all
Duration: 60:00

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[00:00] Please, I'm Jack Callahan, Fox News. President Trump, speaking with reporters just a few moments ago at his golf resort in New Jersey, standing by his earlier stern words that if North Korea takes any military action against U.S. or our allies. I hope that they are going to fully understand the gravity of what I said. And what I said is what I mean. President had tweeted this morning that military options are locked and loaded. The president's saying if North Korean leader Kim Jong-un does anything with respect to Guam or any U.S. ally,

[00:30] he, quote, will regret it. North Korea responding to the president's earlier tweet Pyongyang through a Korean news agency calling the U.S. a shameless gangster state and warning preventative war is not an option that's limited just to the United States. But behind the rhetoric reported clandestine diplomatic efforts. Even though you have the president and the North Koreans going back and forth with this rhetoric over the last few days, there is a back channel discussion between a senior U.S. diplomat and a North Korean counterpart. This is according to the Associated Press

[01:01] that also reports that those two are discussing the three Americans who are still imprisoned in North Korea along with some other issues. The State Department refuses to comment on this report. Fox's Rich Edson at the Pentagon, Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov estimating the risk of a military conflict between the U.S. and North Korea is very high and says that Moscow is deeply concerned. Southern New Hampshire parts of the Exeter Hospital evacuated midday by an odor. 17 staff members treated after feeling dizzy and nauseous.

[01:31] No indication that this was life-threatening in any way. Many of them have gone home already and some have been transferred to other hospitals only because we have shut down our emergency services at this point. Dr. Neil Meehan says hazmat crews are investigating none of the patients at the hospital was affected. Fox News, fair and balanced. For every gun owner, pulling the trigger and lawful self-defense is the absolute last resort. None of us want to do it, but what if you have to?

[02:03] Have you considered the serious financial and legal consequences that could come from just doing what you had to do to save your life or the life of a loved one? I'm Dana Lash with ENRA. I carry my firearm every day, but the truth is right behind your firearm, your second most important self-defense protection is a rock-solid carry policy. That's why I believe in NRA Carry Guard. It's the most comprehensive coverage and training for those who carry, developed by the only brand gun owners can trust to have their backs, no matter what.

[02:34] NRA Carry Guard members can choose up to a million dollars in insurance-backed protection, plus 24-7 access to a first-response crisis management team, an online video library, and much more. Learn more and sign up today at NRAcarry.com or call 1-866-NRA1234 to become an NRA Carry Guard member right now. Former disc jockey David Mueller has rested his case against pop star Taylor Swift in a Denver courtroom, suing for defamation over Swift's claim

[03:05] that he groped her before a concert four years ago. Swift's security guard on the stand today... Greg Dent testified he saw the DJ she accuses of groping her reach under the singer's skirt during a 2013 pre-concert meet-and-greet photo session. The singer testified yesterday saying David Mueller, quote, stayed attached to my bare cheek as I lurched away from him. Swift called it a despicable and horrifying and shocking encounter. Mueller claims he touched her rib.

[03:35] He was fired after Swift told his supervisor. Fox's Michelle Polino, Taylor Swift, is countersuing charging sexual assault, still hoping for health care reform, the conservative Freedom Caucus is planning an end-run to try and get a vote on to repeal Obamacare by using a congressional discharge petition to bypass congressional leadership. Freedom Caucus member Jim Jordan of Ohio telling Fox News... I just spent the last 10 days crisscrossing the fourth district of Ohio and people back there said, act like you did when you ran for the job. Make sure you guys do what you told us

[04:05] you were going to do and keep your promise. This is a way to do that. Dallas Cowboys running back, Ezekiel Elliott will appeal a six-game suspension for domestic violence handed down by the NFL today. The league says following a year-long investigation it finds persuasive evidence that Elliott had a physical confrontation with his girlfriend last summer in Columbus, Ohio. Elliott's representative calls the NFL's findings inaccurate, full of erroneous conclusions. Police in Columbus had decided against pressing charges. Witnesses and police are reporting gunshots

[04:35] and screams in at least two areas of Kenya where residents support opposition presidential candidate Ralia Odinga. The unrest breaking out after Kenya's election commission announcing that President Uhuru Kenyatta had won a second term defeating Odinga. Dow Jones industrial average, rebounding up 14 on Jack Hallowhand. Fox News Radio. Here is the latest in local news from Fox News Radio. A drug task force in Washington County is charging a St. George man with distributing drugs. Police arrested David Bennett Wednesday for allegedly selling meth to a confidential informant.

[05:05] Bennett is charged with two counts of drug distribution. He will have his first court hearing on Monday. Police in St. George say a teenager reported missing earlier this week has been found safe. They've been searching for 13-year-old Jenna Ann Bound since Tuesday. She was found around 6.30 last night. Police did not release details about where she was found or why she had gone missing. It wasn't a good time to go through the gorge last night. Motorists were delayed as two separate collisions including a fatal motorcycle crash, reduced traffic to a single lane, first crash about 6 p.m. involving a motorcyclist who crashed along Southbound I-15 near Milepost 15

[05:35] according to the Arizona DPS. A motorcycle rider pronounced dead at the scene. The right lane completely blocked off traffic through the area backed up for several miles. A second collision occurred at the same time about 6 miles south of the motorcycle crash. Weather for the area partly cloudy in 77 today. For Fox News Radio, I'm Carl Amar. This just end. Putin has ties to Russia. The exclusive tonight on CNN. The Kate Dolly Show starts now. In the councils of government,

[06:06] we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence whether sought or unsought by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizen can compel the proper meshing

[06:36] of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals. So that security and liberty may prosper together. What's up? Some great words. Eisenhower. Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to the Kate Dolly Show. Hope you're doing well. And of course you can go to www.katedallyradio.com Check out the podcast. And of course you can email me anytime at www.katedallyradio.com

[07:07] We are live around the globe, around the country. And I welcome you to the show. Of course we have Dave, the investigator. And it's always fun on a Friday, isn't it? We're so open and I love that. And I am so grateful to have this next guest. In fact, welcome to the show, John Kiriakou. I'm so glad to have you. Thank you. You bet. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be with you. Oh, us as well. In fact, I thank Dave for getting you on the show and his hat tip to him. Because this is going to be so good. In fact, let me tell the audience

[07:37] just a little bit about you. For 14 years you worked as an analyst and case officer for the CIA, leading the team that captured a senior Al Qaeda member. I can never say this guy's name. There we go. And I'm the name murderer, John. In Pakistan in 2002, and then in a television interview in 2007, three years after you had resigned from the U.S. intelligence agency, you became the first current or former member of its publicly acknowledged the CIA that they used torture and that its use was official policy

[08:07] under the administration of Bush. And so in 2012, Barack Obama administration filed espionage charges against you. And those charges were eventually dropped in October of that year. And you pled guilty to violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act by confirming the name of the officer involved in then secret CIA rendition program that transferred CIA detainees into secret prison facilities around the world, sentenced to 30 months, served two years. You have two books, Doing Time Like a Spy,

[08:39] How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. And also The Reluctant Spy, Your Secret Life on CIA's War on Terror. If I missed anything, fill in the blanks, but your story is so compelling. And as you were writing these books, was it difficult to kind of know what to say? Did you have just been in prison for this under the Barack Obama regime? Were you a little nervous? Yes and no. Yes, in that when I was writing my first book

[09:11] I was going completely by the book and every time I would complete a draft I would send it to the CIA's Publications Review Board for clearance and they would either black things out and send them back or they would send me a letter saying it looked good. I did this 11 times, if you can imagine. I sent 11 separate drafts and in the end they ended up redacting about 90 pages. So what would have been a 310 page book ended up being a 220 page book. What I didn't know was that every time

[09:42] I was sending in a new draft they were filing a crimes report, it's called, against me with the FBI saying that I was violating the law by putting this stuff on paper. That's not the way it's supposed to work. The way it's supposed to work is when they object to something, I delete it from my computer negotiate different language with them. Instead, they set out to target me pretty early on in the book process. You make an important point too, Kate. This all went down during the Obama

[10:13] administration. Barack Obama, and I'm going to go on record here. I was a third generation Democrat, and I left the Democratic Party over this because Barack Obama was the enemy of transparency. Barack Obama liked to tell people that his was the most transparent administration ever. That's a lie. He was never transparent. There is so much that was done by the CIA and the rest of the intelligence community in the name of the American people that has

[10:45] been covered up or papered over that we have a right to know about and a right to talk about. All of that was covered up by Barack Obama. I decided that I had taken the CIA's best shot and I survived it. I was going to tell my story. I came out. I wrote doing time like a spy while I was in prison. I edited it and sent it to the publisher when I got home from prison. Sky Horse Publishing came to me and said that they wanted me to

[11:19] write a book with Joe Hickman, a former Guantanamo guard and also a whistleblower, about Abu Zubaydah. Crazy as it sounds, here we are 15 years plus after the capture of Abu Zubaydah and nobody had written the definitive book about him. We decided that we would do it. I was the one who captured him. Joe was the one who guarded him at Guantanamo. We both know the man personally. We know what kind of person he is. He's very complicated. He's a bad guy. I think that his defense team is wrong in that they say that he was just

[11:55] this poor guy. He's the wrong guy. Look what we've done to him. This is terrible. That's not true. At the same time, he's not the monster that the CIA wants people to believe that he was. So we thought, well, we'll write this book and put our own thoughts out there and see what happens. It's been far more controversial than I thought it would be. People from both the CIA and the FBI have lined up to condemn this report and actually they've been successful in getting two reviews killed. One was in The Daily Beast,

[12:26] which is no big deal. But Newsweek had promised us the cover of Newsweek and a 3,000 word excerpt that was supposed to have appeared three weeks ago. And that just kind of evaporated. Wow. Is that the Convenient Terrorist? The book? That is the Convenient Terrorist, correct. Very good book. I just finished reading it yesterday. You've written more than the two books I mentioned, by the way. I just want to say those were two of your later, you know, your latest, but that one too. Excellent. It's amazing how it describes the torture techniques used by the CIA and their professional

[13:01] psychologists versus the FBI's version of interrogation and the conflict between the FBI and the CIA. And you say they're often just with a wink and a nod sent off to another third world country present or yes, yes. All the time. What will happen is if I'm in Pakistan, right, and I'm the CIA counterterrorism chief in Pakistan, and I catch you and you are, let's say, your Egyptian. If you're an Egyptian in Pakistan and you have no passport and no plausible explanation for what in the world

[13:36] you are doing there, and I just caught you along the border with Afghanistan, you're going to go to Guantanamo. I don't care what your excuse is. And what was funny is they had all been trained to tell the same story. It was almost comical after a while. They all told exactly the same story. And that story was that they wanted to study Arabic and so they flew to Karachi, never minding the fact that nobody speaks Arabic in Pakistan. They flew to Karachi and when they arrived they wanted to drive to the

[14:10] Grand Mosque to give their thanks to Allah for delivering them safely. Well, there is no Grand Mosque in Karachi. The Grand Mosque is in Islamabad. And when they were in the taxi they accidentally dropped their passport. And so they got off at the Grand Mosque to pray rather they realized that they didn't have their passport. So they made their way to an Arabic coffee shop and they met somebody at the coffee shop who told them, come and stay at this house. We have a lot of Arabs at this house

[14:40] and we'll get you your passport back and then you can study Arabic and then go home. Well, they ended up going to an al-Qaeda safe house. They had no idea of course that it was an al-Qaeda safe house and then the Americans broke down the door and grabbed everybody. And I told this one guy that we caught, Abu Jaffer al-Iraqi. He was the head of the Durumta training camp in Afghanistan. And he didn't know that I knew who he was. I said to him, you know how many times I've heard that story, since I've been in Pakistan, 25 times. You know, I used to respect you guys because

[15:15] your operational security was so good. This is ridiculous. This is an insult to me. At least come up with a story that's somewhat believable. You came here to learn how to speak Arabic. First of all, you're an Arab. You speak Arabic already. They don't even speak Arabic in this country. No matter what you got. Gosh, I can't even imagine. They kind of smiled and nodded and he's like, all right, you got me. Wow. You know, the book, when you describe the torture that they're under and how we sort of wink

[15:46] and nod and everything kind of goes just with the wink and the nod, how do you feel about torture? How do you feel about torture? You've been with the CIA, obviously. What are your thoughts? You know, I was always, I always felt very, very strongly about the rule of law. I felt strongly about American exceptionalism, that we're the good guys. And whether we like it or not, whether we're angry or not, we have to play by the rules, even if our enemies are not playing by the rules. Right.

[16:16] And so I was always opposed to torture, not even, you know, for bleeding heart reasons, but for rule of law reasons. Right. Right. Torture's illegal and reasonable people can agree to disagree on whether or not some of these techniques that I outlined in the book were torture, but the law says that they're torture. And if you want to do these techniques, as I say, reasonable people can agree to disagree, then you have to change the law. You can't just do it and say, oh, well, it's not torture.

[16:47] Well, it is, and it's already been decided over the decades, and we can get into that. Right. But I was always opposed to this idea of sending people to third countries. I was saying, if I catch you and you're Egyptian, what you're talking about is then, I secretly send you to another country, like maybe I send you to Algeria or Jordan or Morocco, and I tell the intelligence service there, okay, we're sending you this Egyptian wink, wink, but don't torture him now.

[17:18] We think he's a really bad terrorist, but remember, you can't torture him. Just send us a memo and tell us everything he says. Well, those countries, I mean, all they do is torture. And so they're going to torture you mercilessly. You're going to confess to everything. They're going to write it up as a memo and send it to the CIA, and they're going to say, well, he gave us all of this information, but we didn't torture him, we promise. But some people say, John, how else are we going to get all these secrets and save millions of lives?

[17:48] Because you know that's the argument. What do you say to that? That's the argument, and it's a red herring. As we say in the book, and believe me, it's a kick in the gut for me to have to compliment the FBI. I hate the FBI, but if there's one thing that the FBI is really good at, it's interrogation. And what the FBI does is they establish a rapport or a relationship with a prisoner, and sometimes it takes weeks and sometimes it takes months, but after a while, that prisoner is going to open up to his FBI interrogator,

[18:20] and he's going to give him the intelligence. So the torture is unnecessary. You don't need to go that far and violate humanity. And the media has done a real disservice to the American people, especially the show 24, which introduced into the popular culture this notion of the ticking time bomb scenario. The ticking time bomb scenario is that there's a bomb getting ready to go off in some American city someplace, and you have the terrorist who knows about the bomb,

[18:51] and the only way to get the information is to torture him so you can defuse the bomb just before it goes off. Well, that's fantasy. That's only in the movies and in TV, besides the fact that that never happens and has never happened in history. Even if you do torture him, and even if he does give you information, you then have to turn that information over to a team of analysts. Right. Who's going to take weeks or months to work through it

[19:23] to see what's true and what's not true. Oh, that's such a great point. And by then, Chicago's turned to dust. Oh, that's such a great point. So the ticking time bomb scenario just doesn't work. I'm so glad you brought that up. I'm so glad. And you're right, and the clock ticks the whole show. We'll be right back. Stay with us. Kate Dally Show. More with John Kiriakou. What a fantastic guest this is. Do not miss a second. We'll be right back in a couple of minutes. We'll be right back.

[20:00] you doing here today Carl? Well I came in here to buy silver and gold because I heard you were the best guy to buy it from. Well you got that right. I always figured you for being smart. Well you know I am a smart guy and I tell you what the future is too uncertain not to invest in silver and gold right now. How can you trust the dollar and where it's going? Yeah it's actually going down. See the experts for gold and silver, Greg and Melody at the Goldor store 7 North Main downtown goldorstore.com. If you have a car you need to listen. This is Kate Dahle and I need you to go get your oil changed at Slick

[20:30] Willys right now. Trust me they're amazing. At Slick Willys they know there's millions of places you can get your oil changed so they're completely over the top with customer service. Customer service? What? You get a bottle of water and the news with every service and it's fast enough you can just stay right in your car. They're honest extremely detailed and they'll never sell you stuff you don't need. Really? I'm so impressed with them. Slick Willys. My name is Mary Jo and 40 years ago I suffered a neck injury that

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[22:02] in the business. If people knew how bouncy our balls are. They would be bouncing on tennis courts from North Carolina to California. Instead they buy our competitors clearly inferior balls. Yes, smack their balls a few hundred times and the fuzz balls right off. And soon their balls are totally bald and barely bouncy at all. What do we need to do to get people to try our tennis balls? We gotta get the word out. Word out, word out. Hey, maybe we should advertise. That costs money and we don't have much money. So yeah, I don't want to advertise until we have more money. Which we'll get when we sell more balls and make some profits. So we don't need

[29:00] lawyers were going to say no. And the lawyers are going to take some of these techniques out. And nobody did. And then the President signed it. And we had carte blanche to do anything we wanted. And you don't have a people opposing it. American people want to oppose it. So give it the green light. Why not? Exactly. Because we were traumatized. I mean, 3000 Americans were killed that day, right? Or whatever it was 2000 Americans, whatever it was, I was almost 3000 my mind now 3000. Yeah. Yeah, 3000 people. And so this was the greatest

[29:31] intelligence failure in American history. So people, you know, in the CIA, at the Pentagon, we wanted revenge. And we wanted, well, to use Dick Cheney's terms, we wanted the gloves to come off. You know, talking about 9 11 talk to me about the knowing of the Iraq war, the carefully laid plans way before. I've talked about the PNAC on the show quite often. How many of our politicians right now were involved in the writing of that PNAC that came out a year before 11 but tell me a little bit about our carefully laid plans to go in there yeah

[30:06] you know this is this is so ugly and so controversial it's something that Americans just don't either don't know about or don't appreciate right there's a kind of a famous story here in Washington that on September the 12th 2001 a group of neo-conservative private citizens you know Washington fixtures Richard Pearl for example went to see the president and on that day September the

[30:43] 12th they said we have to attack Iraq well I can tell you that the intelligence and I'm saying this as a CIA insider the intelligence was crystal clear that Saddam Hussein in Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with September 11th right what what most Americans don't get is that there was nothing Muslim about Saddam Hussein there's this famous story that he made the minor pilgrimage the Omrah to Saudi Arabia to Mecca in 1986 and he went with his vice president

[31:14] is that Ibrahim who was very religious well Saddam Hussein was so not religious at all that he didn't even know the prayers and so when he went to Mecca and got down on his hands and knees to prostrate himself is that Ibrahim had to whisper the prayers to him so Saddam could then repeat them out loud to make it look like he was religious hmm hmm there was nothing religious about this guy and Al Qaeda was a very religious organization they hated Saddam Hussein as much as they hated the United States so the notion that Saddam had

[31:46] somehow colluded with Al Qaeda was ridiculous but this was the the theory being pushed by Dick Cheney's office OVP the office of the vice president well there was a there was an Iraqi national named Ahmed Chalabi Chalabi had been a CIA cooperator for many years and the CIA determined that Chalabi was a pathological liar and he was a thief and so the CIA issued something called a burn notice against him meaning that no CIA's officers allowed to have any

[32:17] contact with Ahmed Chalabi so what did Chalabi do? Well Chalabi had very very close contacts in the neocon movement in Washington and so he started passing his intelligence to the office the vice president and they in turn passed it to the Pentagon so it was the Pentagon that was issuing these these intelligence reports saying Saddam's talking to Al Qaeda the Iraqi station chief in Prague is talking to Al Qaeda there are weapons of mass destruction

[32:51] and at the CIA we're saying whoa wait a minute we haven't seen any of this intelligence but here it's being reported in Pentagon channels I wonder who their source could be not knowing that it was Chalabi and his people passing it directly to the Pentagon in Washington this was not being collected in Iraq right or in the field elsewhere what's going on in Washington it was being created in Washington and so that's why there were multiple sides to the weapons of mass destruction story there was no CIA information that there

[33:23] were weapons of mass destruction but the information was in intelligence community databases because it was being generated by the Pentagon okay I have a question because you're an insider do these how much cacophony of information is going on in there you've got the FBI you got CIA you got the Homeland Security you got the Pentagon you got everybody else and they're all coming up with different sources and think this is not really monolithic is it oh heavens no that's a great question it's not in any way monolithic I'm not

[33:55] exaggerating when I tell you my job when I was executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director for operations I would get to my desk at 3 30 in the morning because I had a 7 a.m. briefing with the deputy director and then a 7 30 briefing with the director and so I had to get through at least 10,000 cables between 3 30 a.m. and 7 a.m. now it was because I had a very deep expertise on Iraq that I was chosen for this job and I could get through 10,000 cables so

[34:29] you look at them as quickly as possible and you say this one's nonsense nonsense this one's plausible nonsense nonsense and then you go through the plausible ones and then you really have to think about what makes sense and what doesn't make sense and then you have to look at the sourcing so that's the only way to to get to the real story and at the same time we had this thing called the the threat matrix I'm sure that you've you've heard about this in the press when we were going from like yellow to orange to red

[35:04] words back then you remember that oh yeah the color threat so we had this thing called the threat matrix and the threat matrix was originally meant to be just an inside tool for those of us who were going through these thousands and thousands of cables to use to determine what threat was real and what threat was not real well as soon as the president heard that we had this threat matrix he demanded access to it the problem is that the intelligence is raw when it goes into the matrix it's not finished intelligence and it's not been analyzed by anybody so any lunatic who walks in

[35:39] off the street into the American Embassy in say you know to go to Galba he says yeah yeah I'm I'm with Al Qaeda and I'm gonna blow up the American Embassy in you know Cairo mm-hmm we say okay well you also seem to be insane and he said yeah you know the space aliens told me to do it right you know the Shah of Iran mm-hmm and you say okay well normally the officer would write it up and say this is the information the guy gave he's clearly a lunatic he

[36:13] was confused and he left right well but the information still goes into the threat matrix and the next thing you know the National Security Council is saying oh my god there's a threat against the American Embassy in Cairo we have to go up to condition orange explains it because nobody's really got any expertise and the people who do have expertise don't have the authority to hold back the information and so you've got the policymakers literally

[36:49] leading the intelligence and then that's how you end up with these with these situations where you know we go to war saying that there are weapons of mass destruction and there are no weapons of mass destruction right and so knowing that and knowing the history of the situation at hand how do you feel about North Korea right now and Guam it it's history repeating itself it's like this is exactly what happened with Iraq let me draw a parallel mm-hmm I have always believed very firmly there you let me let me back up I have a degree in

[37:21] Middle Eastern Studies I studied Islamic theology that was my my focus I speak Arabic I lived in the Middle East for many years so I like to think I know what I'm talking about relative to them in the Middle East okay I was a firm believer that war with Iraq even if there had been weapons of mass destruction could have been avoided because we did not understand I should say the White House did not understand Saddam Hussein's mindset and Saddam Hussein

[37:54] did not understand the White House's mindset it became well I'm gonna use this term it became a pissing match between Saddam and George W. Bush so Bush would say you know don't cross this red line right well in Arab culture that's an invitation to cross the red line you can't bully somebody in in Arab culture they just to save face they have to stand up to that threat mm-hmm and same thing when we you know demanded that Saddam accept the United Nations

[38:25] weapons inspectors well culturally he couldn't accept those weapons inspectors because it was humiliating for exactly and Saddam really believed that Bush would eventually back off because Saddam thought that Bush understood that Saddam was the only one standing up to the Iranians and the Iranians really were the real enemies wasn't the Iraqis the Iraqis couldn't attack us they had no weapons they had no delivery systems they had no nuclear program the

[38:56] Iranians do mm-hmm and the Iranians certainly frightened the other Arabs in the Gulf but Bush did not understand the Arab mindset and so it was just constant pushing pushing pushing until finally Saddam said oh my gosh the Americans aren't going to back off after all I better get out of here and try to find someplace to hide and the next thing you know we were crossing the border I remember also sitting in a secure video teleconference one morning and it was a pretty high level not even pretty it was a very high level video

[39:26] briefing I was the note taker oh George Tennant and the other participants were you know the vice president oh can you save John save this for save this for about two seconds from now save this for about two seconds will be right back don't go anywhere I want to hear this story kdallyradio.com don't go anywhere I just talked to my CPA and I'm pretty angry he told me that I owe the

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[43:14] Welcome back. Kate Dally's show at your service. I've got Dave Investigated Dave with me. Always a fun Friday and always just an intriguing Friday, isn't it? We've got John Kiriakou who joins us. He's XCIA and has written some tremendous books. I have to say really good and you need to pick these up. As far as, man, there's so many. The first by is one of the last ones that you've written,

[43:45] My Secret Life and the CIA's War on Terror. John, you have so much to say. Gosh, I wish we had like three hours with you today. I just want you to kind of go over just from the beginning of that little story you were telling, because I wanted to get your thoughts on North Korea and so we went kind of back to you, this Saddam Hussein, you were drawing a parallel. Yes, so I was participating in a secure video teleconference in very early 2000, well, it was the middle of 2002.

[44:15] And it was, I was the note-taker for George Tenet, who was the director of the CIA at the time. And the other participants, all on video screens, were the vice president and Condi Rice, who was the national security advisor, Colin Powell. Donald Rumsfeld was the secretary of defense and they all had their note-takers. And one of the NSC participants said, and I'll never forget it, he said, as soon as we cross the border into Iraq, the Iraqi people are going to throw flowers at us. And I remember George Tenet turning around, he turned his microphone off, and he turned around

[44:46] and he said to me, are these people insane? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, they're insane. Yeah, they are. And we're seeing the same thing now with North Korea. We are not, if we were to enter North Korea, we would not be greeted as liberators. Because North Koreans don't know any better. You know, they are exposed to the same kind of, well I shouldn't say the same kind of media, but they're exposed to a kind of media that prohibits any outside thought or outside information.

[45:17] And, you know, you think we would have learned our lesson by now that foreign interventions are never easy, they're never clean, they're never cheap, and for whatever reason, we never seem to have an exit strategy. And I'm seeing now the same mistakes being made at this early stage that we were making in the early stages of the Iraq war. Yep, but people are falling. Where we're just not thinking this thing through. People are falling for it, and I made the observation publicly that, you know, we marvel at North Koreans

[45:49] and how they have to worship him and how they do because they have been brainwashed and forced to believe, believe, believe their whole lives. And we over here do it voluntarily, and we do it because we don't ask questions. And so, what enemy, what enemy says, this is where I'm going to hit, and it's going to be not really you guys, but the territory that's far away from you guys. And so, none of this makes sense. In fact, if he launched, we would kill that missile in the air anyway. This is so preposterous and ridiculous, but Americans won't ask questions.

[46:20] They're so wrapped up in the emotion of the insults being going back and forth as top headline news. I posted something on Facebook today that was meant sort of tongue-in-cheek. It was one of these men on the street interviews where the reporter was asking random people, should we attack North Korea? And they all said yes. And then he shows them a map and says, can you tell me where North Korea is? And three of them pointed at Canada, two pointed to Finland.

[46:51] And this is so typical of the United States where we take these positions, and we don't have any idea what we're doing or what we're talking about. Yep. We're just taught to think a certain way. That's amazing. I agree with you completely. This is an utter lack of information, and even if we had the information, it's a lack of analysis. Yes. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I can't stress that enough. And what do you think will happen? What do you think will happen in the coming week? What do you foresee? I think we're serious. We're going to say these words, but I expect that the Chinese will finally

[47:23] intervene with both sides, and cooler heads will prevail. I can't believe that we're looking to the Chinese for leadership. But here we are. Wow. We live in a bizarro world now. Wow. A false flag. How do you feel about those words? You know, it depends, really. False flags were actually very popular at the CIA when I was there. Not on grand scales, because the bigger the false flag, the tougher it is to pull it off. But operationally, false flags were very popular.

[47:54] They used them all the time. I'm glad you at least commented on that. You know, those words are so taboo. Very good. They are, you know, because they're loaded. For example, I don't believe that the new town massacre was a false flag. I think it was a massacre. And it's funny to me that I have so many friends who believe that everything is a false flag. And it's like, dude, you know, I want to tell people, if you knew the morons, some of the morons I worked with at the CIA,

[48:26] you would never use the words false flags again, because these guys can't find their way to the men's room, let alone manipulate governments and countries. Interesting. What is your take on Russia and the allegations with Trump and Russia? Because I don't believe it for a second. But what do you... I actually don't believe it for a second either. I'm a member of a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. We've got about five dozen former CIA, FBI and NSA, mostly senior officials. In some cases, you know, the number two

[48:57] or the number three or number four in some of these agencies. And we take very in-depth looks at some of these major issues, and then we issue memoranda to the president, which he probably never reads, but they also get published in places like Consortium News or The Nation Magazine. And we wrote one a few days ago on this Russia collusion thing. It was written by Bill Benny, who was the number four at NSA and is one of the country's leading experts on internet security. And we've come to the conclusion

[49:28] that there is just no evidence of collusion. There's no evidence that the Russians hacked into the DNC servers. The evidence that we do have points to a whistleblower inside the DNC who printed the documents off, gave them to the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray. And Craig delivered them to WikiLeaks. And Craig has said publicly that that's exactly what happened. So I'm just not seeing any collusion.

[50:00] between the Trump campaign and the Russians. I just don't think it's there. I think the Paul Manafort thing was all, I don't like him, but it was all theater, theater, yeah. Yeah, it's all theater. You know, John Stockwell, the CIA agent that came out in the 80s, said something that I'll never forget, and I've regurgitated it a couple times on the show, that he was always, when he was told to do things, he always thought that he would get the answer as to why, and as long as he kept moving up the food chain, and then when he got to the top of the food chain, he was never given answers.

[50:30] It was all smoke and mirrors. What are your thoughts on that, being in the CIA? I think that's absolutely true, absolutely true. You know, when I got this job as the executive assistant to the ADDO, the associate deputy director for operations, I mean, that's a pretty doggone, high level position. In that, even though I'm the assistant, I then have access to, I thought, literally everything. Right. Because that's the only way that I can keep him briefed or informed. Well, there were databases that I had access to

[51:02] called Compartmented Databases, and I remember a couple of times like starting to brief something that I had read from one of these databases, and he stopped me because the other associate deputy directors didn't have access to the information. And so I would have to give it to him hard copy, and he said, you know, you can't mention this in front of anybody else. Oh my God, these are the top, top most people in the CIA. Right. And they're not cleared for the information. So it was that that made me understand that,

[51:33] oh, this went way higher than I had ever thought. Right. I mean, it went above the CIA even. I mean, look at Richard Helms, for example, the former CIA director, who went fishing one day, and then mysteriously died in his canoe all by himself and fell overboard and drowned. I mean, how does that happen? Well, don't you worry about that? I mean, John Stockwell, I think he's still alive. Don't you worry about that? Don't you worry about saying things that I mean, a lot of people turn up dead, especially if you know the Clintons

[52:03] or pass the Clintons in traffic or brush up against them in a hotel or whatever. Lots of people around the Clintons die. Don't you worry about that in this position? Because whistleblowers are right out there, you know, in the open. They are. Do you worry? People ask me that all the time, and to tell you the honest to God's truth, yeah, I am a little bit worried about it, but I like to think that if I remain as vocal and as out there as I possibly can be, shouting the truth, that people will miss me.

[52:36] And I like to think that that's what keeps me safe. Wow. I have a question. Sure. Since you were talking about torture, are we still doing it? The wink and the nod. Oh, that's another good question. You know, Barack Obama said that we weren't. I believe him. I believe everything he says. Who knows? It's all secret. Right. Because I believe it. I told an interview with the other day that when the CIA told the American people

[53:06] that there was no torture program, that was a lie. When they said that there were no secret prisons, that was a lie. When they said that they were not rendering prisoners to third countries, that was a lie. When they say that they had not hacked into the Senate's computer system, that was a lie. So why should we take their word for it now? I totally agree with you. With everything else that they've told us has been a lie. Yep. I totally agree with you. I wish people would follow the dots on that. And how do you feel about the CMUs, the secret management units,

[53:36] the communication management units where people are completely denied of all their rights if they're a political prisoner? They're located in, I think, Indiana, Illinois? I was threatened with placement in a CMU. When I started writing this block series from prison that became the book, Doing Time Like a Spy. So they threatened me with transfer to another prison and placement in the CMU. Oh my gosh. The management unit. Right. Communications management unit. And I decided to use a little bit of bluster. And I told the warden right to his face.

[54:09] He stopped me coming out of the cafeteria at lunch one day to threaten me. And I said, warden, I have gone nose to nose with Al Qaeda, with Hezbollah, with the Iranians, and I'm supposed to be afraid of your prisons? Please, I said, give me a little bit of credit. My sentence is short, and I'm gonna go home, and I'm gonna tell the American people what happens inside these prisons. You can't scare me into silence. Whoa. You know, I, yeah.

[54:40] I fear, wow. I fear that Congress oversees this, but they don't do anything about it. We see these things, they'll never, ever go away. And they're so, it's like a little mini Guantanamo, really, because they could be put in a hole. People could be put in a hole. These are people that really haven't harmed anyone. This is just mostly a lot of political prisoners. And so they could be put in a hole, and you wouldn't know. And they could be stuck down there for 25 years. There's no accountability, border prisons, no accountability whatsoever.

[55:10] Why does that not get out? Why doesn't that worry Americans that we have this right here in good old USA? You are absolutely right. And in the federal prison system, they use this technique called diesel therapy. I was threatened with diesel therapy and a friendly administrator warned me. He said, hey, they're talking about putting you in diesel therapy. I said, what's that mean? I had never heard it before. What it means is, they put you in something called transit status. That's that you're being transferred to another prison. So I would go from, I was in the federal prison at Laredo, Pennsylvania.

[55:42] They would send me to the US Penitentiary in Canaan, Pennsylvania. And I'm there for three days or three weeks or three months or whatever. And then from there, they'd send me to Atlanta and from Atlanta to Oklahoma City, which is the National Transportation Hub and from Oklahoma City to another place and another and another. With the idea being, if you are in transit status, you're not allowed to have access to a phone, to an email system or to pen and paper. Zip. And so people literally have no idea

[56:13] where you are in the country. Oh. And you can't contact anybody. It's amazing. And I want, just before we go, we have about a minute and a half. I just, down here in these parts where I'm at, the Bundy situation, where no shots were ever fired and the protesters didn't have guns and you've got a kangaroo court in Las Vegas where a constitution isn't allowed. They're not allowed to have a defense. Are you surprised by this? What do you see happening there? No. I'll tell you, the only thing that surprised me about the Bundy situation was that they were acquitted in the end.

[56:45] I supported them just because, like I said earlier in the show, I feel so strongly about rule of law. And I believe in civil liberties. I consider myself to be a libertarian. And I think that the federal government was just trampling all over their constitutional rights. Yep. They still are. I was real that a jury came to the same conclusion. Yeah. Yeah, they were acquitted in Oregon, but now they're trying to. They're so afraid of it that they have the biggest kangaroo court I think I've ever seen, the trials and the jokes. Oh, and this is what the feds will do. They'll just keep trying them over and over and over again

[57:16] on trumped-up charges until they finally get a conviction. Geez. It's just so sick. You know, what are we gonna do as Americans? I mean, this could affect anyone for standing up for themselves. I can't even imagine. I wanna say one last thing. I have a couple of... Yeah, go ahead. There's a study that came out in 2012 by ProPublica. That is the investigative journalism website. And in this study, they found that the federal government wins 98.2% of its cases. 93.2% of its cases.

[57:46] When I was at the CIA, and Saddam Hussein would win 98% of his presidential election, we would laugh and we would say that the fix was in. Well, the feds win 98% of their cases and we say they're geniuses. Well, they're not geniuses. The system is rigged. Yeah, they're bought and sold. John Kiriakou, what a pleasure it was to have you this hour. I can't say that strongly enough. We'll have you back. A reluctant spy, my secret life in the CIA's war on terror and many other books, check him out. Thank you so much. What a pleasure.

[58:16] Thank you. And of course, be faithful, be fearless. Go to katedallyradio.com for podcasts of the show. Hello, Washington County. It's Glen Beck. And if you're selling your home right now,

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