Title: The Untold Stories of John Kiriakou
Show: The Farah Shammas Podcast
Date: 2026-07-10
URL: https://youtu.be/eIfwisOJH1E
Duration: 72:00

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[00:00] I started as an analyst and I was put on uh the Iraq desk in the office of leadership analysis. So I was essentially Saddam Hussein's classified biographer. So I said, "Coper, I'm not working on al-Qaeda." Was that for real or was that just for their benefit? He said, "Oh, something terrible is going to happen." And two months later it did. >> Whose fault was it then? >> Well, it was the greatest intelligence failure in American history. I was informed that we were going to start torturing in May of 2002. And I said,

[00:32] "That's a slippery slope. It's wrong." And they said, "Well, either you're in or you're out." And there were CIA officers, very senior CIA officers, who would go to the secret prisons to watch torture sessions just because they wanted to enjoy the torture session. >> Did you ever think it would cost you your freedom? Were you ever worried about that? >> Never thought it would. I spent 23 months in prison. People objected that I was not contrite. What's the difference between somebody who orders hit teams to go around the world and just murder people in cold blood versus the mafia

[01:04] guy who murders somebody who won't pay back the $100,000 that he borrowed. What's the difference? They're both killers. My boss who I really really liked and respected. Like you would never guess that he was in the CIA. You would look at him and say ambassador, >> right? He came up to me. He gave me a hug and he said stay safe. And then he whispers in my ear, "And kill them all." >> Do you think that's your mother's spy? >> Yes. >> For the Israelis. Yeah.

[01:35] >> John, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. I can't believe you're in Cyprus. >> I'm very happy since 1992. >> What a change. >> It's a different world. Truly good. >> I don't recognize anything. And in fact, I took a lot of pictures in Nicole when I was there in '92 and don't recognize any of the places. >> Let's do a before and after. It's going to be hilarious. I know. It's a big big change. >> Huge difference. Huge. >> We see it. I mean, Limol's completely transformed. It's a mini Dubai now.

[02:06] >> But yeah, even some of the beautiful old buildings, they've been knocked down and lots of changes, but in a good way because we need change and we need to grow and develop. So >> that's right. >> Yeah. >> Well, welcome to Cypress. Raphael, >> so happy to have you here with us. It's a real real treat. And >> um so before we go into the >> into all the amazing details that I think all the listeners can't wait to hear, I want to start with talking about your Greek heritage, like the obvious. >> Yeah. >> Because I do, you know, I do a lot on

[02:38] Instagram, always talking about, it was a bit like my big fat Greek wedding. What is Greek and beautiful and wonderful in the world? And here you are an American CIA who's originally Greek. So tell us a bit about your your parents, your lineage, America. >> All four, excuse me. >> All four of my grandparents were from Rodos. Um my father's parents I've been from there. >> Oh, I love it. My my father's parents from Yalisos up north and my mother's

[03:08] parents from Gatavia. It's the farthest southern uh village on the island. And you know, it's funny. We were raised to believe we were always Rodian going back, you know, till the beginning of time, always rodeian. >> And so I did a I just happened to do a 23 and me test after I was invited to come to to Cypress to speak >> when when uh Paul Lambis emailed me. He said, "Hey, we want you to speak at this uh criates of the diaspora." And I said,

[03:40] "Great. I'd love to count me in, but I'm not criate. My family is Greek. He said, "That's okay. Come and speak and it'll be fun." >> I happen to do a DNA test at the same time. >> Don't tell me you got a criate anyway. >> 26% criate. >> No way. I love that. Oh my gosh. >> Which was a shock. And I called a cousin of mine and I said I said, "It's 26% criate and it's all from from Papu's side." >> Yeah. >> And he said, "Yeah." He said, "I told you that." And I said, "No, you said

[04:11] kiti. You said originally we came from Kiti." And I said, "That was crazy. I'd never heard that." He said, "No, I said keep not." >> So there it is. >> Amazing. And there's a there's um a village in Rose called Arhangelos. >> Yes. It's heavily criate. >> This very similar accent to the criates. >> I'll tell you a funny story about Arhangelos. >> Um I like it there. It's very nice. Uh when I was in college, >> my cousin was getting married in Warren,

[04:43] Ohio. I don't remember why I went with her, my mother, and my grandmother that day. I drove them all to the what do you call it? The wedding gown store, whatever they call it, the bridal bridal uh boutique. >> And there was a girl working there from Arangelos. Her parents were from Arangelos. And she was really good-looking. And I said, uh, and we were talking and smiling and flirting. >> We were 20. I'm going to say 21 or 22.

[05:13] >> And I said to my mother, I'm going to ask her out. >> And my Yaya says, "Oh, no, you're not." She said, "I don't interfere, but I'm putting my foot down on this." I said, "Why?" And she said, "She's from from Arangelos." I said, "So what? >> That's a that's a positive thing. She's Rodian. >> She's Rodian." And she says, "People from Arangelos have big heads and they lie and they care only about property." >> That's hilarious. >> They have big heads, like oversized

[05:45] heads and they're all liars. >> And I said, "Oh, okay." >> Well, in that if that's the case, >> yeah, I'm not going to piss everybody off. So, I never asked around. >> Oh my goodness. The one that got away. If you're listening to this now, can you imagine there's a lady somewhere going, "What? What? That was him?" >> And you know, the last time I was in roads, it was last year. I stopped in Arangulos with that same cousin and uh and we had lunch and I said, "It's fantastic here." >> Yeah. >> I missed the boat. >> Oh my goodness. That is so funny. And you did your first wife was Greek origin

[06:16] as well. >> Yeah. From from Hios. >> From Hios. Yeah. But also second generation like in >> her parents were born in Hios. So she was Yeah. She was >> Oh, so she's like Yeah. First generation American. Wow. And you grew up So you grew up in a very My big fat Greek wedding style, huh? with the Greeks. >> I had 27 first cousins on my mother's side. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It was big family. She was one of nine >> and then everybody had kids. >> Yeah. >> So, and and you and you like Greek. You were speaking Greek at home.

[06:46] >> Yeah. But you know what though? When I went to college? >> Uh I wanted to take Greek. I went to George Washington University. I wanted to take Greek and they didn't offer Greek. The only ancient Greek. >> Okay. >> So, I wanted to take Greek. They said, "Well, it's available at Georgetown University." We had this consortium of DC universities it was called. So I went up there and I met with the uh the professor who also happened to be the dean of the school of languages and linguistics the salatis. And um I said I want to I want to take Greek. He said

[07:17] you can't. We already started a week earlier. You're going to be too far behind. I said no but I I spoke Greek at home. He said okay let's talk. So we start talking and he says to me your Greek is terrible. And I said, "What? Really?" >> He said, "You speak in this weird 1930s era doian slang." >> And he said, "When did your people come over?" I said, "Well, >> that's when they came over. >> 1931,

[07:47] my my par my father's parents, 1934, my my mother's." And he said, "And you're probably from what? Roads." And I said, "Yes." >> He said, "You're going to have to start at the beginner class." Oh my goodness. >> And I said, "Okay." And since I knew, you know, the alphabet and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> the basic words, I I was okay. And he let me So I studied there for three years. And then when I went to the CIA, um >> I just continued taking Greek at church on my own >> and then was assigned later to Greece

[08:18] while I was with the CIA. >> Yeah. But you learn Arabic. >> Yeah, I learned Arabic. >> Oh my goodness. I mean, I'm I'm half Lebanese and Arabic is mass my Greek is much better than my Arabic. >> Very very difficult. Very difficult. >> At the end of it, I said to my instructor, I feel like you owe me a master's degree because I didn't work this hard in graduate school. >> No. Yeah. Really? It's tough. It's really tough. How did you learn Arabic? Because you studied Boy Middle Eastern studies. >> I studied Middle Eastern studies in school, but didn't but Arabic wasn't >> part of it. It was more like the history and culture.

[08:49] >> Okay. >> In fact, it was a new >> There wasn't a language part. >> No, it was a new program. I I actually went to the dean as a sophomore and I said, >> "And why why did you choose that?" >> Yeah. >> Oh, I was always fascinated by the Middle East. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Well, when I was a sophomore in high school, the Iranians took uh the American embassy and took our diplomats hostage and I was fascinated. So, I went to the dean um at GW and I said I I was one of only four Middle Eastern studies majors and I said, "With all due respect, you've got

[09:19] a Middle Eastern studies program with no Arabic, no oil economics, and no religion. What kind of program is that?" >> Yeah. What's going on? >> He He was not nice about it. Don't tell me how to run my program. >> Okay. >> Well, now here it is, you know, 40 years later. Is it 40? Yeah. Yeah. Actually 40 >> 40. >> And um >> and they have Arabic and they have Islam and they have I actually I actually took Islam on my own through the consortium

[09:50] again. And then my senior year they brought Sus Nasser the father of Vali Nasser to GW. So I studied under him. >> Wow. >> And um and uh oil economics finally they have a whole program but it took them decades. >> Yeah. because it's you know that I mean I had also when I was studying cross-cultural I don't know what they called it crosscultural studies part of my hospitality and tourism degree but it's so important and I know my grandfather so we're Greek Orthodox Christians but my grandfather was

[10:22] originally from HS in Syria and he was taught Arabic by learning to recite and memorize the Quran >> and when he got older and he was in business and and the Americans were moving over to they were in the Middle East a lot when he got um started a construction company and it's a whole story. But one of the things that um apparently they attributed to his success was he could sit at a table with Muslims and he would know more of the Quran than they did and he would start reciting things to them and they would

[10:53] go, "Wow." And he really bridged that gap and was like, "We're all the same. We can all learn together." And >> my grandfather my grandfather dropped out of school in the third grade to work in the fields. One of 19 children. >> Wow. And uh and sometimes we would be sitting at the table and he would start speaking Turkish and we were like babu and he's like we had to learn these languages and then he would speak Italian. >> Imagine >> it was the craziest thing. >> And what a gift languages is such a gift.

[11:23] >> So what happened that made you join the CIA? How did this turn out? You said you were fascinated as a young >> Oh, yeah. Well, you know, because because I was from an immigrant family. >> I was raised with the idea that the United States was so good to us, we had to pay back somehow. And so, I only considered public service. I never considered going. >> Isn't it amazing how immigrants often appreciate the country so much more than

[11:53] the people born into it? >> They really, really do. And I mean, look at the Greek community in the United States. It's the It's the best educated and second wealthiest immigrant community in America. >> Is it? What's the first? >> The Jews. >> Well, I just had to hear that come out of your mouth. I was going to say it, but yeah. And the third >> uh the Indians. >> Okay. Interesting. >> Interesting. So I only considered public service and um >> there's public service you know there's working in you know electricity or

[12:26] something like that and then there's CIA. It's a big gap. >> Well I was thinking more of State Department foreign service maybe Capitol Hill >> and then my adviser in graduate school turned out to be a CIA officer undercover as an adviser. >> No way. >> And uh and he spotted me and thought that I would be good. >> So why was he there undercover in the first place to to spot to find >> to find >> Yeah. students. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Amazing. What was anyone else hired from your >> No. >> Friends? No, just you.

[12:58] >> Wow. That's amazing. >> So, how does the hiring process work? >> Well, it's different now. >> Yeah. >> They changed it in 1993. Congress passed the Equal Employment Opportunity Act. >> Okay. >> Very, very much less sexy. >> Okay. >> You just go to www.cia.gov and click apply. >> Okay. So it's >> but before they would be out scouting. >> Oh yeah. Outlooking. >> Yeah. Before the internet and computers were were in widespread use. So

[13:28] yeah before 911 there were 250 applicants for every position. >> After 911 and this has held steady there about 2500 applicants for every one open position. So it's very very competitive and you have to get through AI and the computer screen. I mean, people are patriotic. >> They're patriotic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, patriotic, I'm not I'm just putting out >> You're not going to apply to the CIA if you hate the CIA. You're not going to apply to the CIA if you hate the government. >> But it could also be the the the movies,

[13:59] the the the perceives glamour. >> Yeah. But I like old western movies. Doesn't mean I want to be a cowboy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So, then you started working in the CIA and then your career progressed. Tell us about your Yeah. because I know you were stationed in Athens and different places. Obviously, you learn Arabic. >> Well, I I started as an analyst. >> Um I was hired as an analyst and I was put on uh the Iraq desk in the office of leadership analysis. So, I was essentially Saddam Hussein's classified

[14:32] biographer. We worked with a team of uh psychologists and psychiatrists to analyze the personalities of foreign leaders to look for weaknesses that we could exploit. >> Oh my god. Tell us about that. >> Well, I was >> tell us about Saddam Hussein. What's your take on >> We always We always compare Saddam to a a mob boss. >> You know, people people grossly over overuse the word crazy. Oh, he's crazy. >> The Ayatoll is crazy. Saddam's crazy.

[15:04] >> Crazy is just different. >> None of them are crazy. None of them. >> Just because we don't like their policies or we disagree with their style of leadership doesn't mean they're crazy. With Saddam, he was extraordinarily quick to use violence. >> And we compared his leadership style to the leadership style of a mob boss. >> If you spoke out against him, he would cut your tongue out and nail it to the front door of your house. And that way, nobody in the neighborhood was going to

[15:34] speak out against him. if you were a problem or or he thought you might become a problem politically in the future, he would either kill you or exile you. If you were, for example, a popular general, let's say you had commanded successful troops against the Iranians, you're not going to get promoted. You're going to be made ambassador to the Philippines. So, you're so far away, you can't possibly challenge him. There's a famous video, it's it's freely available on YouTube

[16:04] from the day that Saddam took power. He's at a he's in a small theater on stage and all the generals who had helped him come to power that day are sitting there in the audience, dozens of them. And he says, he's sitting on the stage, he's smoking a cigar, and his brother Barzan Titi is down there standing amongst the generals. And Saddam says, "We uncovered a plot, a plot against the revolution, and it's

[16:36] among the generals." And there's, you know, rumbling. And then he says, "General Muhammad, you've been caught." And General Muhammad stands up and he says, "Mr. President, I'm innocent. I I support you. I love you." Barzon grabs him, takes him out, and you hear a gunshot in the background. And he does it to a second general and a third general and a fourth general. Finally, he names the next guy and he jumps up and tried to save himself. Says, "Yes, I confess. I

[17:06] did it. I did it." Well, there was never any plot and they killed him. Killed about a dozen of them that day. And it so frightened all the rest. It so cowed them that nobody dared to challenge Saddam. >> That's when people say it's crazy. I mean, this is crazy. But it's not crazy. It's ruthless. >> It's ruthless, >> but it's not crazy. >> It's just so different from anything that we're >> brought up to believe what is right, what is correct, what

[17:38] >> is the norm in, >> you know, it's like the colloquial use of the term nervous breakdown. >> There's no such thing as a nervous breakdown. That's not a medical term. It's not a psychiatric term. It's just a term that we've come up with, the media have come up with that we attribute to people who, you know, are in some kind of a mental health >> psychosis or Yeah. mental health. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That's Yeah.

[18:11] Again, we go back to that's crazy. >> Um, so you were studying um and and looking after that side and then you were moved to Athens. Well, years later. >> Years later. So, what happened? >> So, I was an analyst for seven and a half years. I served overseas in Bahrain as an analyst. Um, served in Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait. >> And you were undercover whenever you were serving. >> Well, you have to be. You can't just go to the airport and say, "I'm with the CIA." >> So, um, I switched to operd. He loved

[18:43] what you were doing. >> Oh, I loved it. Yeah. >> So, I switched to operations in 1997. went through the operations training and then went to Greece as a counterterrorism officer. >> Spent two years there back to headquarters for a year almost a year is that right? >> No almost two years and a half and then uh went to Pakistan as the head of counterterrorism operations. >> And how did you find it? because we all

[19:15] watch the movies and >> but you know we don't know h how do you find it living that double life >> like >> no problem h >> how does how does that work because >> but you know what though we all live double lives we all have >> we go to work we smile we and then we go home and >> sure now if you're just some guy I'm sitting next to on a plane and you ask me >> but you're you're going to work and you're playing someone that's not you let's say I might have parts of you >> what makes you think it's not me >> yeah That's what I'm asking. That's what

[19:45] I'm asking. >> No, but you're saying it's two different lives and I'm saying no, it's not. >> It's not. >> No. >> No, it's not two different lives. >> Okay. >> If if you're >> Explain that. Explain that further. >> I mean, for all of us, because we're not in this, the listeners, myself, we're not in this world. So, this is something so alien to us. So, let us into your world. Describe it. If you're just some guy I'm sitting next to on a plane and you ask what I do for a living, >> I'm going to tell you a lie. >> And I'm gonna the lie is going to sound

[20:16] the li Well, the lie is going to sound so boring that you're not going to ask me a follow-up question. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to say I'm involved in training in trade negotiations >> and you're going to say, "Oh, that sounds so interesting." And you're lying and it doesn't and you're not going to ask me a follow-up. >> That's it. >> So, it's not really so much a double life. like the movies. >> Yeah. >> And then but then when you're on the ground, >> what >> tell us about it. This is this such a

[20:47] different world. So, okay, you're on the ground and you're going about your your daily life pretending that you're in trading. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, >> no. That's called That's called a throwaway cover. >> Okay. >> That's just something that I just say just to get you to shut up. >> Okay. Um, there are different kinds of cover. >> Uh, there's what's called integrated cover, in which case I would work a normal 8 hour day doing a cover job and then at night I would go out and do my

[21:17] CIA job. >> I was never under integrated cover. >> Okay. >> Um, I was under well, no, I shouldn't say what I was under. I was under the kind of cover that I was a CIA officer all day. >> Okay. and I was working with that country's intelligence service. >> So I was known to them as John the CIA officer. >> And so I would go over to whatever the intelligence service was, the Greeks, the, you know, this one, that one, the other one, and trade

[21:50] information. We would do operations jointly. >> Yeah. Just go about my business. >> Amazing. Okay. So let's go through now. We're still going to the part you went moved to Athens, >> right? So I moved to Athens in 1998 and um my job there well when I originally applied for it, it was to work against the Greek terrorist group uh 17 November revolutionary organization 17 November. And there was another one called the popular revolutionary struggle.

[22:21] >> Mhm. >> And um as well as the Abu Nidal organization, the Libyans, the PFLP, the PFLPGC, the DFLP, whatever groups happen to pop up, Islamic Jihad, they they didn't have very much of a presence. Whatever groups there were that meant harm to Americans, >> that was the job. Once I got there, 90% of it was 17 November. the Arabs, >> which you weren't expecting. >> I didn't expect it to be 90%.

[22:51] >> But but it it was the Arabs. I mean, by then, we've got the immediate aftermath of the Oslo Accords >> and everybody's getting along. I didn't have to worry about the Arabs. The Libyans, you know, changed their policy. They weren't making trouble anymore. >> It was all about 17 November. >> Yeah. So interesting. And you stayed in Athens for a couple of years. >> Uhhuh. Two years. And then >> was it a dangerous time then? >> The most dangerous time in my career.

[23:23] >> Really? >> Yeah. I was in far more danger in Athens than I was in Pakistan, >> which I think people wouldn't put that together. >> Most people don't know that in that period from the mid 1970s until 2002, the US spent more money on security in Athens than we spent in Beirut. It was far more dangerous in it was unbelievable and me coming from Beirut like I know that that was you know yeah a crazy place and we used to go to Athens and feel safe and you know more

[23:54] okay it wasn't we didn't have the European Union then but it was you know we felt like yeah >> was Europe and more civilized >> but you had this group that not only had nobody ever been caught nobody had ever been identified >> so is it the guy you're sitting next to is it the guy in traffic is it the guy on the motorcycle weaving through traffic and coming up alongside you. >> You just didn't know. >> That's amazing. Okay. And after Athens, >> I went back to headquarters in August of

[24:27] 2000 and almost immediately turned around and went back to the United Arab Emirates. I was there until I was I was assigned to something called the 17 November task force, but because of my Arabic, I was constantly on loan to other groups. >> And so I spent much of that time in Abu Dhabi, did some work in Beirut, and um and then 911 hit

[24:58] >> and then everybody everything changed. Everybody was volunteering to go. >> Tell us about 911. >> What a terrible day. >> I mean, I Everyone in the world will remember where they were on 911. >> Everyone in the world. I had a meeting scheduled that morning for 9:00 with Condisa Rice. She was the national security adviser at the time. I was going with the director of the counterterrorism center, Kofer Black, later ambassador Kofer Black. And um

[25:30] I walked over to Kofheer's office to tell him that the car was ready to take us to the White House. And when I got there, when I got to his office, I was across the hall. So I I got to his office and these were the days before you could watch TV on a computer. So his secretary had a very small TV on her desk and she had it on and one of the towers of the World Trade Center was burning. I said, 'What happened to the World Trade Center? And she said, 'A plane flew into it.' And I said, 'You

[26:01] know what? That happened once before in 1930. A a plane flew into the Empire State Building, but it was really foggy and rainy. It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center? >> And just as I said the words, the second plane flew in. And she turned around and she said to me, "Did you see that or did I imagine it?" I ran back to the office and I said, "Guys, we're under attack. Two planes just uh hit both towers of the World Trade Center." We all ran back

[26:31] up to Kofheer's office that there were TVs hanging from the ceiling. >> One was, you know, BBC, CNN, Canel, the Russians, the Chinese, the >> and all of them were on and all of them were showing the World Trade Center. And um must have been 150 of us gathered there. And finally, somebody behind me shouted, "Will somebody please lead and then Kofer, it was like slapping him in the face." He said, "Yes, you go to the director's

[27:03] office and tell him this. You go to security. You go to operations." And we just stood there and watched, you know, watched the towers burn. And then the Pentagon was hit. >> And then somebody said, "There's still a plane in the air." >> The the vice president ordered that jets be scrambled to shoot it down. it. The passengers brought it down before it could be shot. And um and then Kofheer stood on his desk or on the secretary's desk and uh and said,

[27:33] "Today we're at war. All of us are going to have to fight. Not all of us are going to come home. If you want to leave now, no one will think less of you." And nobody budged. Finally, the CIA has its own internal police force called the ESPOS, the special protective officers. And ASPO had already come in and said, "Everybody evacuate." Nobody budged. Came back in 45 minutes later. He said, "If you don't evacuate, you'll be arrested." So, we started evacuating. It took me

[28:05] two hours just to get out of my parking space. And then, >> wow. >> I lived, >> you know, it's not really evacuating, is it? I mean >> I mean it's the place isn't designed for tens of thousands of people to all leave at exactly the same time. So >> um I lived exactly 10 km from headquarters. I got 5 kilometers home 5 km toward home >> and I I had to uh abandon my car on the side of the highway. It was like World

[28:36] War Z like nothing could move. So, I walked the five kilometers and I saw when I when I got to the the Theodore Roosevelt Bridge where I would make a right to go home, I saw the deputy national security adviser coming across the bridge and he had no shoes. And I remember thinking, you're supposed to be protecting us. You're supposed to be commanding the response to this and you ran away with no shoes.

[29:07] like how did how did this happen? So I got to my apartment. My girlfriend, who later became my wife, she was also a senior CIA officer. She met me there about an hour later. We went to the roof of my building. We watched the Pentagon burn for a little while. And then I said, "We should give blood or something." So we went we went back downstairs. We tried to donate blood, but the line was 24 hours long. >> And then finally, I said, "This is ridiculous. We need to get back to work." So I walked the five kilometers back to my car, drove across the grassy

[29:40] median and then went back to headquarters and I stayed there for the next four days. I just slept under my desk. Everybody did that. >> And you know, America had never seen anything like it. It's not like Europe where terrorist attack in history of wars or you know America's >> recent history >> almost double the number of deaths um compared to Pearl Harbor which had been the worst attack in American history. >> Yeah, it was bad. >> And what's your take on 9/11 if you can

[30:11] say? >> It's very straightforward. >> Al-Qaeda did it. They told us they were going to >> There's a lot of conspiracy theories. [ __ ] the conspiracy theories. >> Whether it was the the Jews or the Saudis or the Bush family or the space aliens or the lizard people. I've heard it all. >> Oh my god. I haven't heard the last two. >> I've heard it all, including the last two. And people tell me I'm an idiot and a fool. Al-Qaeda had been planning that attack since 1996.

[30:41] We watched them plan it. We listened to them plan it. We disrupted it a couple of times >> because they only had to be lucky once. We had to be right on every single time. >> So, they kept on trying >> and you had managed a few times, but that time you missed it. >> Mhm. On July the 6th, I was entertaining a group of intelligence officers from the Middle East, and we did this literally every single day. You'd have a group come from whatever country and you

[31:13] give them a full day of briefings and then you exchange gifts and then you take them for a photo op with the director and then at night you take them to a very expensive restaurant and then you do it again the next day with another group. So that day July the 6th I had this group from the Middle East and um I scheduled the full day of briefings for them. One of the briefings was on al-Qaeda and it was with a young 25-year-old junior analyst just come in and give us the the basics on al-Qaeda.

[31:43] And so instead of him coming, Ambassador Black came with the chief of operations for the Osama bin Laden group. And I I was so surprised. I said, "Oh, gentlemen." I stood up. I said, "Gentlemen, this is Ambassador Kofheer Black, the director of counterterrorism, and this is the director of operations." And Kofheer sat down and said, he looked right at them and he said, "Something terrible is going to happen. We don't know exactly where or when, but it's

[32:14] going to be a an attack on an unprecedented scale." He said, "The chatter that we're picking up is camp commanders on the phone with their students and they're crying and saying, "I'll see you in paradise." They're saying code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey. There's going to be a gigantic football match, a huge wedding. They're all code

[32:48] words for an attack. He said, "I'm begging you if you have any sources inside al-Qaeda. >> Please help us." >> Neutralize them. >> And they just sat there. So, at the end of the day, I sent them back to the hotel. I said, "I I'll pick you up in 3 hours for dinner." And I went to his office to thank him for taking the time to do the briefing. The guy's in charge of counterterrorism for the entire world. >> So, he's busy. So I said, "Coper, I'm not working on al-Qaeda." Was that for

[33:20] real >> or was that just for their benefit? He said, "Oh, something terrible is going to happen." And two months later, it did. >> So who whose fault was it then? >> Well, it was the greatest intelligence failure in American history. The CIA didn't do its job because we hadn't recruited any sources inside al-Qaeda. The State Department do it didn't do its job because it gave visas to every one of those hijackers. The FBI didn't do its job because because they knew that

[33:50] the hijackers were in the United States and didn't tell the CIA. Congress didn't do its job because hadn't appropriated enough money for counterterrorism or allowed the CIA to hire enough people. Everybody failed. the the predecessors of TSA didn't do their job because they let 19 terrorists on the planes with box cutters and they didn't catch a single one of them. So, everybody failed. >> An absolute tragedy. It's still shocking to think about. >> Terrible. >> We witnessed it.

[34:21] >> 3,000 people were killed that day. >> Bin Laden later said that he wanted to um destroy the American economy. You know, I remember reading an op-ed the next day in the Miami Herald, and it was one of the most heart-wrenching op-eds I had ever written. The guy was saying, "My God, do you realize what you've done? Do you have any idea how many people are going to be killed now?

[34:53] We killed 2 million Muslims in the 20 years after 9/11 between Afghanistan, Iraq and you know associated operations Libya, Syria, Somalia, Pakistan, 2 million people that would be alive today. Like what did he think was going to happen? I never understood the decision-m. >> It's so so so sad. And when did you leave the CIA?

[35:24] >> Uh in uh March of 2004. >> Okay. So it's quite a quite a while ago. And what made you leave? >> I was newly divorced. My my children were young at the time. They were let me think they were nine and six. My ex-wife moved back to Ohio. And you know, boys especially need their father at that age. >> And so I had a job offer from uh from

[35:56] Deote uh one of the big four >> professional services firms and they said, "We don't care where you're sitting, you know, when you're writing your reports. You can work from Starbucks. We don't care." >> So I took that job funny for exactly double what I was making at the CIA. And um and I did that for the next four years. And so when when did you have that moment where you said if I stay silent I can't live with myself like I I need to

[36:27] >> well you it it came incrementally. >> Okay. >> So so we started torturing up was a beta in uh on August the 2nd 2002. >> And I thought this was wrong wrong. And I said something internally um at my produ at my uh promotion panel meeting. The new director of counterterrorism said that I had I had uh displayed a

[36:58] shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism because I wouldn't be trained in the torture techniques and I had objected to them. >> Wow. >> Internally. And then there's a Greek American guy. He's a brigadier general in the army. He's a psychiatrist and we were working together in the counterterrorism center. good guy. And he said to me, "Buddy, you know they call you the human rights guy behind your back." And I said, "I know. I've heard it." >> He said, "You know that's not a compliment, right?" >> And I said, "Steve, I am on the right side of this and they are not."

[37:29] >> It's as simple as that. >> Was that the first time you saw >> or you heard of torture or was it something that you knew was going on, but you hadn't been directly involved in? Well, I was I was informed that we were going to start torturing in May of 2002, and I said, "That's a slippery slope. It's wrong." >> Mhm. >> And they said, "Well, either you're in or you're out." I said, "I'm out, but I think you're all making a terrible mistake."

[38:01] >> So, then they started torturing him on August the 2nd. >> And was it several types of torture or >> Well, there were 10 techniques. Um, but then there were others that were not approved by the Justice Department that they did anyway. You know, everything from a smack in the face to water boarding and sleep deprivation. And >> I I've seen a picture of um I think it was in Korea. I think it must be quite a famous picture of um different soldiers

[38:31] waterboarding someone I think from North Korea. And I think the part that I found most disturbing was that the soldiers were smiling >> while doing it >> just like Abu Grape. >> And I think that's something that people end up this you know sadistic. >> Yeah. There's a group thing >> horrible side. >> Yeah. comes out and and people get this I don't know devilish and I say that not in a a nice way that you would for children just horrible mean

[39:01] inhumane side that comes out that feels joy. >> Yeah. >> And that must be really scary to see that in someone you know or someone you had thought you previously liked. >> It's terrible. I mean these are people these are people that I consider to be my friends. >> Yeah. Our kids socialize together, our wives socialized, and then all of a sudden >> they go to work and murder people or torture people and then they go home at the end of the day and everything's normal. >> That's worrying. I mean, that's that's

[39:33] psychopathic behavior for me. >> Yeah. That's what I considered it to be. >> That's when you say that person's crazy. >> Yeah. >> In some form. >> Yes. So, so when did when did you Okay, so you started saying that and you weren't happy with it. >> Well, and I assumed somebody was going to say something. Somebody was going to be >> so upset that they were going to leak this to the media and it never happened >> and then in 2007 December

[40:03] >> and the results that you wanted came or didn't come via this technique. Of course, it doesn't it doesn't work. >> Yeah, it doesn't work. No, I know you've said that before over and over again. doesn't work. >> And so it wasn't leaked. And then >> and then in December of 2007, I got a call from a reporter at ABC News in New York and he said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zuba. He said that was absolutely untrue. I

[40:34] was the only person who was kind to Abu Zuba. >> Maybe that maybe that source was there to make you speak. Maybe that was someone's way of getting it back to you. No, >> that's really that's a very nice >> way to analyze it. No. No. No. >> So, so why would they have called you? Where did that leak come? >> Because word had gotten out >> and they needed somebody to blame. They didn't want to go to prison. So, blame the guy who was a thorn in their side from the beginning. >> From the beginning. Maybe they blamed

[41:05] you for the word getting out in the first place. >> No. >> No. Also, >> no. Uh they blamed the Guantanamo defense attorneys. >> Okay. >> Okay. So then the reporter called you >> and uh I decided to make a long story short, I decided to >> just tell the truth. >> No. >> And that's what I did. >> And then then >> then the investigation started. So the FBI investigated me from December of

[41:36] 2007 to December of 2008. And then they decided >> It's a long time. >> Oh, no. It's not. >> It's not. No, >> it didn't feel like a long time. >> No. >> I did. I hadn't done anything wrong. >> You weren't worried at that stage. You weren't >> You just stood by your principles, your morals, >> and said, "This is the right thing to do." >> Mhm. >> Okay. That's amazing. >> And then in December 2008, they dropped the investigation. They sent my attorneys a letter saying that they had found no evidence of a crime.

[42:06] >> Okay. >> Done. Then a few weeks later, Barack Obama becomes president and he names John Brennan as the deputy national security adviser. Brennan then secretly asked the Justice Department to reopen the case against me. I had no idea. So they started >> and again why like why you why what happened there? >> They needed somebody to blame. M >> so why not blame the one person who was

[42:37] the thorn in your side that's what they did >> but at the end of the day they couldn't get you for torturing because you didn't do it >> no they never charged you with torturing >> exactly so I mean they're blaming but they're blaming it's almost like a scapegoat for something else we're talking about torture and these people who've done it which is illegal >> it wasn't illegal >> it's it's whole point. >> That was the whole point. I said it was illegal. I believed it was illegal. I

[43:08] still think it's illegal. Ethics are a separate issue. >> Yeah. >> That doesn't come into the debate. >> So, it wasn't illegal. Although you said that there were certain ones that were okay and they used others that were not okay. Those are illegal. >> Well, that's illegal. >> Yeah. >> But that's going to be just sort of lost in the scrum. >> Okay. >> The US has a law called the Federal Torture Act of 1946. Mhm. >> that specifically outlaws exactly the tech the techniques that we used. Okay.

[43:38] In the 1960s, we ratified the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Inhumane Treatment. We wrote it and ratified it. So, these techniques are clearly illegal. But then, you know, I'll add, we executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American prisoners of war in 1946. In 1968, an American soldier waterboarded a North

[44:09] Vietnamese prisoner and was sent to prison for 20 years for waterboarding. And then in 2002, the Justice Department said, "Well, no, it's not it's not illegal." Well, of course it was illegal, but they said it wasn't. Which then covered the torturers. >> The torturers could say, "Well, the Justice Department said it was legal, so you can't prosecute us. We only followed orders >> and and the law said that we could do it." >> I just find it scary because this is

[44:41] war. Even in a prison, even I mean, these are all, okay, of course, anti-terrorism. >> You know what though? It wasn't war. There was no congressional declaration of war against anybody. >> I just find it so frightening in war in prisons in how people can be so mean when you give them they say give a man power and you'll see who he is. >> How I mean it's it's just absolutely insane when you think how someone can turn and treat another human being as if

[45:11] they're an animal and they get joy from it. >> Yes. That's what that's what for me scares me. >> And there were CIA officers, very senior CIA officers who would go to the secret prisons to watch torture sessions just because they wanted to enjoy the torture session, not because they had any anything to contribute to, you know, an intelligence operation. >> That that must have been the point where you just said, I'm I've just got nothing to do with these people. I'm I'm >> I was done. I was ready to leave. The whole place changed on 911. I was ready

[45:43] to go. which is sad because you'd loved it so much and you felt you were you know doing something good for your country and >> and I I I heard a quote that was it your um your senior that said um >> yeah that you were one of the best that he'd had under under him and how well you were doing and >> um >> did you ever think it would cost you your freedom? Were you ever worried about that? >> Never thought it would. >> No.

[46:14] No. And I I took a lot of criticism when I got out of prison. I spent 23 months in prison. But when I got out, uh people objected that I was not contrite. And I said, I will never ever apologize. >> Never. I'm right. They're wrong. The world is going to come around to my side of the of the story. And it has. >> So, no. I I gave this interview to the BBC. What was it called? Uh Hard Talk,

[46:46] famous BBC interview show. And it's famously um difficult. And finally the interviewer said uh with great frustration, "Well, you've not apologized a single time since you got on this show. You've never apologized." I said, "I will never apologize for anything. never. >> They should be apologizing to the American people.

[47:17] And now here we are. >> What an interview as well to get to where where they want the conversation to go and direct. >> And he's so frustrated that I just wouldn't play along. And I said, "No." And now my detractors are either dead or they're retired >> and people have come around to my point of view. >> How does that feel knowing that people >> vindicating? >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Must be. >> Yeah. >> So, there was never a time you regretted

[47:47] telling the truth. You stand by it until now. >> 100%. >> Tell us about 23 months in prison. That's not a It's not a little amount of time. That's the way you've got five kids, you know? >> That was the hardest part. It was more Groundhog Day than anything else. It was just the same day repeating itself over and over and over for 23 months. So, you read a lot. the exercise a lot. I wrote a book in longhand, okay, that ended up doing very well. Um, yeah, and just stand by your beliefs.

[48:21] >> What did prison teach you that was completely different to the CIA teachings? Like, I mean, it's night and day experiences. >> You know, I dealt with psychopaths at the CIA and I dealt with different psychopaths in prison. wasn't really very different. Some of them had high educations and others didn't and found themselves, you know, on different sides of the law. What's the difference between somebody

[48:52] who orders hit teams to go around the world to just murder people in cold blood versus the mafia guy who murders somebody who won't pay back the $100,000 that he borrowed? What's the difference? They're both killers. A friend of mine posted something on Facebook the other day. He said his brother-in-law had just gotten out of prison and he had done 20 years for murder. So, it was the first time that they had met. And he said, "I can't believe I know a murderer." And I said, "Try working at the CIA for 15 years. Try being the only guy in the room who's

[49:23] not a murderer and then then see what kind of post-traumatic stress disorder you have." >> That's insane. Do you think you have post-traumatic stress from it? No. In fact, a therapist friend of mine said to me that he thought it was amazing that I did have Yeah. >> Yeah. You've come out of it. Like, you must have a very strong mindset. >> Yeah. My divorce was my divorce took a far greater toll on me than than prison ever did.

[49:53] >> That's amazing to hear that. They say actually it's divorce, death, and moving house are the three most stressful things you can do in your life. >> Uhhuh. Yeah, >> with changing jobs just behind. >> Imagine. So, prison is under that. >> Oh my goodness. That's hilarious. >> So, do you think that who who paid the bigger price for your decision to tell the truth? Do you think it was you or your family? >> Oh, definitely me. Definitely me. >> Yeah, that's an easy one.

[50:24] >> But your kids didn't see you, did they? They didn't have a daddy around for 23 months. >> 23 months. They came they came, you know, all the time to visit. >> Okay. >> But no. Yeah. 23 months. >> How did they find that? How did you find it sitting in prison seeing, you know, your they're your babies, you know, how old they are. I >> What are you going to do? You going to dwell on it and sit there and say, "Oh, wo is me. My poor situation?" No, of course not. You're going to tough it out. >> Yeah. That's amazing. Wow. I think we can all learn a lot from that. Well,

[50:54] really, really inspirational. Um so um exposing the torture programs um do you think that fear can make good people do evil things or do you think they've got the evil side in them? >> I think you have to have it in you but there's a lot to be said about group think too. >> You know you're in this group of people. you've all gone through the shared trauma and you've got to figure out a way to respond to the trauma and somebody says, "We should get rough with these guys." And then everybody just

[51:25] nods, "Yes, we should get rough with these guys." And then one thing leads to the next to the next to the next. Next thing you know, you have a torture program, you have a secret prison program, you have an international kidnapping program, >> and they feel like they're in a group. They're all in together. They're teaming up. and they've convinced themselves that they're the good guys and they're doing this for the country to make the country safe >> and there's no roadblock. There's nothing to stop them >> and they feel powerful. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And connected. >> When I was getting ready to leave for the airport to go to to Pakistan,

[51:58] um my boss who I really really liked and respected, very elegant man, like you would never guess that he was in the CIA. You would look at him and say ambassador, >> right? He came up to me. He gave me a hug and he said, "Stay safe." And then he whispers in my ear, "And kill them all." And I said, "Really, John? We've gotten there already." >> But even he meant it. >> Did anyone in the CIA secretly support

[52:29] you or open? >> Lots and lots of people supported me openly. Quite openly. 77 of them signed a letter to the president asking him to pardon me. Um, but even the day after my arrest, I got a I got an email from the former deputy director of the CIA and he said, "You've chosen a difficult road. I'm glad somebody did. I just wish I had had the courage to do it myself." >> Wow. >> I saved it. >> Wow. Yeah. >> That's really

[52:59] incredible. >> It was things like that that kept me going. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you Yeah, you needed a lot of it. So on that note of needing to yeah keep keep going. What was the loneliest moment in that whole experience? >> What was the loneliest moment? I was walking around I was I was in prison in central

[53:29] Pennsylvania and it was very very cold and snowy. I mean, snow passed your knee. >> And so the yard, the track around the the yard was closed because there was just too much snow. So if you wanted to go outside in these ridiculous cold temperatures, >> um you could walk around the basketball court. >> And I had been there just a couple of weeks and I was walking with with a mafia, Don, the boss of a family of one

[54:02] of the five families in New York. And he said to me, "How much time do you have?" And I said, "30 months. Feels like 30 years." I ended up with 23 months. I said, "It feels like 30 years." And he stops. He said, "Let me give you some advice. When somebody asks you how long you have, you tell them five years because if these guys hear that you have a sentence that's so short, they're going to kick your ass." Uh >> he said there's a lot of jealousy and

[54:32] there are a lot of guys here doing 10 20 50 years. So I said okay. So I didn't tell anybody that I only had 23 months. >> Um then one day >> So if someone asks you, you just say five years. >> Five years. >> Five years. Mhm. >> So, one day, um, well, every day at 4:00 they post, uh, they post a schedule called the call out list, and it'll have a prisoner's name and number, an office that you have to report to the next day, and the time.

[55:04] So, it'll be like you have to go to the dentist or the doctor or personnel or whatever. It's just the list of appointments. And one day mine was on there and it said R&D um receiving and discharge. That's when you're going home. And one of the Nazis stopped me and he said, "Why are you on the R&D list for tomorrow?" I said, "How the heck am I supposed to know why I'm on the What do you think I run the prison?" >> That's how you have to respond.

[55:35] >> Yeah. >> But I didn't tell anybody. I'm going home tomorrow. >> Not a word. Except the Italians. The Italians knew. They were my closest friends. >> Did you keep in touch with anyone? >> I keep in touch with most of them. >> Oh, really? That's so funny. >> You know, it's crazy. You You see movies like The Godfather and Good Fellas and Donnie Brasco >> and then those guys are in your prison like the actual guys and they become your closest

[56:06] friends. I gained 35 pounds in uh what is 35 pounds? It's like uh 15 kilos. Okay. In prison >> because you remember the scene in in Good Fellas where they're cooking and cutting the the >> the potatoes or whatever. >> No, the garlic. Yeah. That's how we ate every day. We had a crooked guard on payroll and he would bring in the pork loin and the pasta and the marsala sauce, the white wine for the marsala sauce and he would bring all this food and we would cook and cook and cook and

[56:38] I I gained 35 pounds. It was it was good. They were good guys. I'm still in touch with all of them. >> It's amazing, isn't it? >> So, um I ask every everyone on um on on my podcast, usually on the other one, Hotel Talk, for a favorite quote. Do you have a favorite quote? >> Yeah. The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice. That's my favorite quote. >> I love that. Martin Luther King.

[57:10] >> And since coming out, you've done so many things. Your life is full and busy. >> Yeah. >> What's for the future? >> Well, about 10 weeks ago, after having told some of these same stories for the last 19 years, I went crazy on TikTok. I don't know why. It's just one of those things that where the algorithm just >> picks you up. >> Got me. And >> yeah,

[57:41] >> so I've been signed by the largest talent agency in the world and my ninth book comes out in July and I'm going to start uh my first ever novel. I'm working with a major Hollywood studio on a television series. Now I have my own podcast. Um I'm in between podcasts. We're starting it in a couple of weeks. On YouTube, it's it's real John >> Kuryaku. >> Mhm. >> And uh yeah, things are good. It's almost that there aren't enough hours in

[58:11] the day. >> I love that. Well, you deserve it. >> Thank you. >> Um I couldn't see you and not not talk about the big Maybe that's why I said Tik Tok's gone mad. So, I mean the big topic of today, Epstein. >> Yeah. >> What's your take on that? >> They're all corrupt animals. You know, these rich these rich and powerful, they're all corrupt animals. And the most sickening thing is that literally nobody will face justice.

[58:42] Nobody. >> No one. You don't think it will ever. >> There are statutes of limitations. And and this is not a partisan issue. Donald Trump didn't prosecute anybody. Joe Biden didn't prosecute anybody. Barack Obama didn't prosecute anybody. They're all in on it. >> All too powerful. I mean it's sure >> you know now I think everyone in the world even remember people who didn't believe in any conspiracy theories I was one now I'm like I believe anything's possible >> I mean the more we see the more that

[59:12] comes out it's just absolutely frightening >> yeah I agree sickening >> it's sickening and frightening >> and you know there might be something to these allegations that this Iran war started just to distract the American people from the Epstein files the the vote in Congress to release the Epstein files to mandate release of the Epstein files was 419 to1 in the House of Representatives and 99 to nothing in the Senate >> and they haven't done it. >> Yeah. And the president said, "What are

[59:43] you going to do about it? What are you going to sue me? So, we're all screwed." >> Do you think they'll ever come out? >> No. >> There's too many powerful people >> in the background. >> Yes. Do you think that was a spy? >> Yes, for the Israelis. >> I feel very strongly about that. >> Like >> we know from the release of the last trunch of documents that he was also at least trying to work for the CIA and the

[1:00:14] FBI for MI5 and MI6, >> maybe for the Germans, and that he had actively sought a one-on-one meeting with Putin. We don't know why, but the Israelis 100%. Yes. Yeah. Right. I'm gonna on that note, I'm going to my Instagram where I always ask people that they can ask anything anything they want um before I go go live. So, oh my goodness. Oh my

[1:00:47] goodness. How long do we have? Okay. So, Emma has asked um given the rise of social media and now the commonplace hacking leading to loss of data combined with a rising pessimism about democracy and a rising interest in autocracy and fascism. >> Do the American people even care about their data and privacy today? >> No, they don't. I hate to say that.

[1:01:20] That's so interesting. >> But no, they don't. That's a great question. So, you know, Congress made such a big deal a year ago about Tik Tok being somehow controlled by the Chinese. It's not, >> but somehow controlled by the Chinese and we're going to shut down Tik Tok or we're going to force the sale of Tik Tok. First of all, they're collecting our metadata. Who cares? Who cares if the let's say it is owned

[1:01:50] by the Chinese, which it's not. Who cares if the Chinese know that I lay in bed at night and I scroll through videos of, you know, >> cats or something. >> Yeah. Little kids cooking cooking meals, cats, whatever, police chases. Who cares? Secondly, what in the world makes Tik Tok's collection of metadata any different from Facebook or Instagram or or X or anything else?

[1:02:24] >> Yeah. Well, I've always said that as well. People always like, "Oh, the phone." And I'm like, "Well, I'm quite open anyway." And I'm like, "So, what if someone, you know, I mean, I tell everyone I'm vegan anyway. So, if they're seeing that I'm scrolling vegan recipes, it's not that's not a shock." Yeah. Exactly. you know, or my birthday or my real age. I'm quite happy to share it. >> The second part of that question, I think, is very important, too. Americans do have an appetite for authoritarianism, and it scares the hell out of me. Yeah, it really does.

[1:02:55] >> It's not good. It weakens our democracy. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's becoming more and more apparent with everything going on in the world. >> Yeah. So, um, oh my goodness, another one. Jill, everyone wrote really long questions for you. So, okay. Okay, you have time. Yeah. Let's see. What are we going for? Okay, we'll give it a couple more minutes. So, um, so what um gives you

[1:03:28] hope for a better future? How do you think we can move forward in a more positive direction and better balance protecting people from bad actors v intrusion into their privacy? How would he like to see the CIA change? Is he more worried about the powers the CIA has or the power of the big tech companies? >> Oh, let me answer up to there. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I'm on record as saying I think the CIA should be dismantled. I really do. Wow.

[1:04:00] And that's a that's a body that he works for and you love and >> but it's not we can't trust the CIA to not spy on Americans, which it's forbidden by law from doing and it does anyway. And then again just says, "What are you going to do about it?" Um, we can't trust our congressional overseers, the elected officials who are on the oversight committees for the intelligence services. All they are are cheerleaders. They're not overseers. And so if they're not going to protect our rights, then that means nobody is

[1:04:30] going to protect our rights. And so we shouldn't have an organization that willfully violates our rights in the first place. But what gives me hope is that somebody like Ed Snowden would go public with these revelations. And even though he went public 13 years ago next month and we have not seen changes, every two years when the Patriot Act comes back up for re reauthorization or section 702 of the uh the Foreign

[1:05:01] Intelligence Surveillance Act comes up, a few more members of Congress switch sides and oppose it. So eventually we're going to get there and we're going to get our civil liberties back. >> You think? eventually. >> Let's hope. Um, oh my god, I'll stop at that because this is from Jill and there's like 20 questions in one thing. Let's just see if we've got um

[1:05:32] more. Um no, I think we're good. They're they're all very long and all very complicated. So, thank you all so much, but I think we're done with that. Um anything you'd like to close on? any any note that um like for me personally I' I'd like to ask how how us as general public who were not involved in all of this how how

[1:06:04] we can protect ourselves and how we can keep a positive >> there are a couple of different ways and and we have to do all of them simultaneously the most important I think is to is to force our elected officials >> to do what we want them to do >> and that is to ensure that our rights are protected >> and what they promise what they promise every time and then forget about >> and then don't do it and then we should throw them out. >> Mhm. >> Until we find somebody who will protect our rights. Um but we also have to we

[1:06:35] have to speak and march and write >> and take to the streets when that's necessary and stand up for our rights >> because otherwise our government won't accomplish anything at all. >> Yeah. Chucked out of social media. Everything is there. I mean, I think we've all had it. I've had it where just like I was thrown out of everything for a couple of weeks >> because Mark Zuckerberg doesn't like your opinions on things. >> Yeah. >> I got suspended from Facebook. Listen to how stupid this is. I was dating a

[1:07:07] Brazilian diplomat >> and she sent me a video of of a zipline >> in Bra in Brazil. You start at the top of the mountain >> and you go like, you know, >> a kilometer on this thing. >> And I responded, crazy Brazilians. >> And I was suspended for hate speech against Brazilians. >> I mean, come on. We were just saying now at the beginning of this podcast how people use the word crazy just like even as a compliment. Yeah. >> You know, it was like that's a bit

[1:07:38] crazy. It's out of the norm. Out of my norm. That's crazy. on on X um Disney posted that they were bringing to Disney Plus a multi-part animated series on the life of Mustafa Kamal Adaturk. I have 220 something thousand followers and I wrote very disappointed that Disney Plus would dedicate resources to

[1:08:09] covering the life and times of a genocidal maniac. Mhm. >> The next thing I know, I get an email from the German National Police saying that they had just finished their investigation of my alleged hate crime against the Turkish people and they decided that I had not committed a crime. And I was like, "Fuck you." Germans and Turks both tried to trample my freedom of speech.

[1:08:40] I just can't believe how people are being cancelled left, right, and centers, losing jobs, everything just for voicing opinions. They're not going out shooting anyone. They're not holding weapons. They're just sharing an opinion. >> At my last podcast, I had a uh sound engineer. Great guy. Robbie West. Love Robbie. >> He and I disagree on immigration. >> I'm a supporter of immigration. I'm from an immigrant family. It would be ironic. if you did. >> Exactly.

[1:09:12] >> And many of the members of my family went to the United States as what are called illegal immigrants. I hate that term. >> Yeah. >> Undocumented immigrants is what I say. >> Robbie wants to just close the borders, seal them, and expel everybody who's not there with paperwork. >> Right. He's a he's an absolutist. >> Okay, we disagree on that one issue. He's a great guy. I I know his wife and his kids. They're lovely people. >> He mentioned offhandedly one time that

[1:09:43] he worked in a hospital in Callispel, Montana, and somebody called every hospital in Callispel, Montana until they found the one that he worked in, and they complained so viciferously that he was fired from his job. Like, was that really necessary? Does it make your life better that that Robbie West doesn't have a job anymore >> because you don't like his position on immigration? >> That's that's how things have turned in the United States. It's all very angry.

[1:10:15] >> We're seeing it all the time. I mean, so many actors out of work and they've been told, "You're never going to work again." >> Yeah. >> Um it's and and and you'll never know. Kevin Spacy was just here. Just ate here at our restaurant. >> Fantastic. always loved him. >> Yeah. And um yeah, that's it. He was told, "That's it. You're out." >> While he was here, I mean, I was meeting him and he was having to go off and talk to Netflix because they still they sued him for the loss of revenue after firing him. >> I mean, it's it's really it's I find it

[1:10:48] really scary. I really do. I'm quite happy that I'm in my little rock. >> Yeah. >> In Cyprus, dealing with hotels and hospitality. Um, but yeah, >> you know, I've actually reached out to him a couple of times to ask him to come on my podcast, Kevin Spacy. >> I'll I'll put you in touch with his manager. >> Oh, thank you. I think I'd been emailing the wrong people. >> Yeah, >> because I think he's been wronged. >> I think so. >> Yeah, we all do things in life that we regret. Everybody does. >> Everyone has done things. >> But then the solution is to ruin the guy

[1:11:18] so he never works again. Come on now. >> Yeah. He lost his house. He lost everything. >> He did. He lost his house. It went to auction. >> Yep. He lost everything. Yeah. Yeah. He was uh staying in the UK in an Airbnb under code name. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> That's exactly right. >> Yeah. Madness. >> My dear, thank you so much. I will let you get on with your day. I know that you're going to the Cypress Diaspora Forum for Lambbeese organizing that. It's been fantastic to have you at San Rafael. >> I hope you come back many, many more times. >> Looking forward to it. It's a great

[1:11:49] place and it's gigantic. >> Thank you. It is big, isn't it? When people come, they're like, "You run this?" And I'm like, "Yeah, it's huge. the gardens, the restaurants. >> But I love it. I definitely get my steps in working here in this environment. It's like constant. >> Excellent. Worth it. >> I know. We're blessed, Tommy. When we love what we do, >> that's right. That's the point in life to love what you do and then it never feels like work. >> You know, even at the CIA, I couldn't wait to get to work in the morning. >> Yeah. >> I couldn't wait to see what I'd missed

[1:12:19] during the night. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Well, enjoy Cyprus. Thank you very much >> and um always welcome. >> Good to talk to you. >> Thank you.
