Title: The Deep Focus Show
Show: The Deep Focus Show
Date: 2025-10-07
URL: https://youtu.be/M0gBPp6agJI
Duration: 46:00

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[00:03] Israel is trying to trying to sway the opinion of Israel among young people in particular. All of the firms that have been hired by Israel um in the last month, which by the way, there's been six of them, which is more than Israel has hired under Farah in the previous two years combined. Um, and most of those firms have been hired in order to target Gen Z, in order in order to target um the the sector of the population that is broken most sharply

[00:34] in their support for Israel military action. Hi, I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. In an explosive new article published by the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, the Israeli government is spending $6 million for an American firm to try to make Chat GPT more pro-Israeli. Clock Tower X, that's the name of the

[01:04] company, will generate and deploy content across platforms, help game algorithms, plus manage AI frameworks to make them more friendly to the Israeli cause. With the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, also known as Apac, already wielding more authority on Capitol Hill and in political races all across the country, how much more mindlessly pro- Israel does the country need to be? We're going to talk about this with the articles author. Nick Cleveland Stout is a

[01:36] research associate in the democratizing foreign policy program at the Quincy Institute for Responsible State Craft. Previously, he conducted research on US Brazil relations as a 2023 fullulbright fellow at the federal university of Santa Katarina with a particular focus on the influence of American think tanks in Brazil. Nick is also a former Marcelus policy fellow with the John Quincy Adams Society where he authored the case for a green brack. His work has appeared in responsible statecraft, The

[02:07] Nation, The Intercept, the Brazilian Report, Inkstick, and In the National Interest. So, Nick, thank you for joining us. This is I I didn't expect to see something like this until I saw your article. >> Yeah, great to be with you here, John. Um yeah, I it it kind of shocked me too because I think that this is especially that chat GBT um angle is something pretty new that we're seeing. I mean people are starting to use chatbt similar to they would a normal SEO like

[02:39] Google. I mean I I have a lot of friends. I do it myself sometimes. >> Sure. >> Where I'll go and ask it a certain question. Um, and so the idea behind it, you know, is is that next time someone goes to Chachet and says, you know, uh, tell me about, you know, is Israel committing war crimes in Gaza? What's happening on the ground there? People have a lot of questions. You know, this is something that, um, you know, they're not letting reporters into Gaza. So, it's really difficult to get accurate information out there and it allows Israel to frame a lot of the debate. So

[03:09] when people go to chat GBT next time, you know, because of this Fern's work, maybe they'll they'll come across more pro-Israel messaging. >> Couple of things too about chat GBT that I think are important. First of all, um because it's constantly learning, uh it sometimes lies. >> It won't say if you ask it a question and it doesn't know the answer, it won't say, "I don't know the answer." It'll give you what it thinks might be the answer. uh when when it first uh was made public, I went on chat GPT and

[03:39] said, "Who is John Kiryaku?" And it said, "John Kuryaku is a former CIA officer, a whistleblower on the CIA's torture program, etc., etc. He graduated from the University of Maryland and earned a master's degree in peace studies at the University of Bruge, Belgium." Okay. I couldn't even find the University of Maryland. I've never been there. I certainly didn't graduate from the University of Maryland. And I've never been to Bruge, Belgium. I've never

[04:11] studied peace studies. And I didn't even know there was a university there. So I went back on PT and I said, "You are incorrect. John Kiryaku earned a bachelor's degree in Middle Eastern studies and a master's degree in legislative affairs from George Washington University." And then Chad GPT came back and said, "No, you are incorrect. John Kiryaku graduated from University of Maryland and the University of Bruge." So like I say, I mean that's kind of funny. It's not, but

[04:41] it is. It's constantly learning. Well, what you say in your article, and I want to read this because it's so important. At least 80% of content Clock Tower produces will be quote tailored to Gen Z audiences across platforms, including Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube, podcasts, and other relevant digital and broadcast outlets with a minimum goal of 50 million impressions per month. Clock Tower will even deploy websites and

[05:13] content to deliver uh chat GPT framing results on GPT conversations. In other words, Clock Tower will create new websites to influence how AI GPT models such as Chat GPT, which are trained on vast amounts of data from every corner of the internet, frame topics and respond to them, all on behalf of Israel. So what you're saying here is that this company is going to overwhelm

[05:44] the internet with information in support of Israel just so that anytime somebody asks Chat GPT a question about Israel, the response is going to be pro-Israel. Is that right? >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, um, yeah, as Chad already, as you say, like has all these kinds of flukes and it and it repeats this information very authoritatively. Um, the way that it it's telling you that you went to, uh, the University of Brues, which by the way, I have been

[06:14] there and it is a nice city. Um, so, you know, I recommend adding it to your to your bucket list even if um you didn't have the privilege of attending university there. Um, but yeah, it's it's it's um it's really concerning and and by the way, the person that um is tasked with with carrying this out is a guy by the name of Brad Parcale, who has quite a bit of experience in running these these kinds of campaigns um engaging in all kinds of >> like gorilla gorilla internet warfare tactics,

[06:44] >> right? >> He was the uh Trump campaign manager, was he not? >> Yeah, exactly. He was the the former Trump campaign manager um in in 2018 and 19 I believe or 19 and 20. And he had a very public falling out with Trump although seems to have reconciled in some ways. Um but he was in 2016 when he was working on the 2016 campaign. He was also the Trump campaign official that hired Cambridge Analytica um the firm that was engaging in this kind of like

[07:15] social media microargeting campaign. uh and has been hired by a bunch of different governments to help out with with their elections. And um you know, so Parcale is someone that is kind of at the forefront of employing new weapons of the internet um against political uh enemies. And so in this case, you know, Israel has hired him uh on this $6 million contract with by which by the way, I mean, I I see a lot of contracts under the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which is our

[07:46] the US's foreign lobbying law, which is really kind of just mostly a transparency law in which you're able to see um what different firms and American lobbyists are doing on behalf of foreign governments. And $6 million is is huge by pretty much any metric. I mean there are very few contracts that I've seen that rise to that level. Um so so this so you know this is very concerning and it's the next iteration of this kind of guerilla warfare taking place on the

[08:16] internet. Um and so you know we'll we'll see what what comes of it. But yeah there's there's um there's all kinds of things in this contract like it's not um you know it's not just geared towards training chatbt. There's also this aspect of he Parcel is also he was appointed earlier this this year um to the to as an executive on the Salem media network which is a conservative Christian organization um that produces a lot of very

[08:48] well-known and influential podcasts especially in conservative circles. It's the one It's the It's the group that produces the Charlie Kurt Show, the Hugh Hewitt Show, The Right View with Laura Trump. Um, a lot of a lot of podcasts that are pretty influential, a lot of radio shows, local radio shows. It's it's this huge conglomeration. And part of the contract actually, um, that that that scale was hired under for Israel is for him to integrate pro-Israel messaging into um, this

[09:19] conservative media network. And so he's kind of wearing two hats at the same time. I mean, he's an executive at this media company, um, but he's also working on behalf of Israel. And he's not even really trying to hide the fact that those are two separate things. >> I I want you to speculate, uh, for a minute, too, as to as to what the uh what the end goal is. Uh there was a poll that was released by the Washington Post on the

[09:51] 5th of October uh where it said that for the very first time a majority a majority of American Jews believe that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Is it to is the the whole purpose of this to turn that around to to bring back the unquestioning pro- Israel sentiment of of a majority of Americans? Is this shortterm? Is it

[10:23] long-term? What are we looking at here? >> Yeah, for for me, so um that's a question that I've had too. And based on the pattern that we've been seeing in the new firms that are working on behalf of Israel, to me the the answer is actually pretty clear um that that Israel is trying to trying to sway the opinion of Israel among young people in particular. all of the firms that have been hired by Israel um in the last month, which by the way, there's been

[10:55] six of them, which is more than Israel has hired under Farah in the previous two years combined. Um and most of those firms have been hired in order to target Gen Z, in order in order to target um the the sector of the population that is broken most sharply in their support for Israel military action. There was Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of polling that's indicating that Israel is is losing this support. I mean, there was a Gallup poll from, I think, July that found that only 9% of American adults

[11:26] between the ages of 18 and 34 supported Israel's military action in Gaza. Uh and so they're clearly and you know instead of changing their action instead of um you know realizing why these America's youth is breaking in support which largely has to do with the atrocities that that they're seeing with their own two eyes. Instead of um reconciling that and changing their actions they've decided to go all in on this strategy of trying to uh infiltrate

[11:59] social media in particular. Um, I had another article that came out a uh the day after I published this one about chatbt that that noted that Israel is actually paying influencers that they have, you know, we we see them, you know, taking trips with influencers uh to Israel to meet with BB Netanyahu, all of these things. And we knew that a lot of that was funded by Israel, but you know, I found that that they're actually the influencers are receiving uh checks themselves in order to post on behalf of

[12:30] Israel. Um, and the the invoice that I found, it actually was pretty detailed and it shows um, you know, how much how many posts these influencers are expected to to make per month um, and and how much they're getting, all these things. Uh, and I broke it down and I estimated that it's, it's not really my estimate, it's it's really what's under Pharaoh. Um, that they're being paid somewhere in the ballpark of between $6,100 and $7,300

[13:00] per post on social media platforms presumably such as Tik Tok, Instagram, which is a ton of money. >> That's a lot of money. >> Yeah, that's a great deal of money. Are you seeing any other countries doing this? I mean there are a lot of countries especially in the Middle East with a lot of money. The Saudis, theQataris, the Kuwaitis, the Emiratis. Are there any other countries that are seeking to influence public opinion in the United States among Gen Z? >> Definitely. I mean I mean not in that way currently that we know of um at

[13:30] least that that I'm aware of. Um we did see about I think it was this would have been seven years ago now. Um Qatar did have a operation. This was also um somewhat similar in that they were they were also paying influencers to um post certain things, but a lot of it was targeted towards um not um not attacking um critics per se, but trying to present Qatar as a more moderate uh US ally. Um, so that's

[14:03] really the only parallel that I can think of, but what we're seeing here is a little bit without precedent and especially some of the guerilla warfare tactics that we're seeing like the the chat GPT aspect um and the astronomical fees as well. I mean, I think that the that $7,000 per post figure is so astronomical because I mean, one foreign countries uh are they're a client that

[14:34] that is expected to pay a premium already. I mean, if you look at like, you know, what Exxon is paying, you know, an American or or, you know, some kind of what an American corporation is paying to lobby um under the lobbying disclosure act versus what any foreign government um is paying under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. There's there there tends to be a disparity there. you know, foreign governments tend to have to pay a premium because there is a certain reputational cost for firms that register to represent these

[15:05] um governments. Um and and then secondly, obviously Israel is a very controversial country. I mean um this UN commission has said that it's committing genocide. So um that's I think why the that 7,000 figure is just so high. And I should also add another layer to this that I find somewhat concerning is that the the firms that some of the firms that have registered under Farah are pretty um are pretty much ghosts online.

[15:35] I mean it's hard to find much information about uh who they are um what what other work they do. I mean the >> So we're not talking about the the the big >> established DC lobbying firms. >> No, absolutely not. No. So that's Yeah. I mean there might be one or two like that that are representing Israel, but a lot of them like um the Brad Parcel's firm and then this other firm that's paying influencers called Bridges

[16:05] Partners. They both were created in the last few months I believe. Um, and there's there's no website for them. There's no last I checked, there's no LinkedIn page, no email, no press contact. Um, so it's they're making it very difficult to to for people to contact them or for people to find information out about them. Um, and so there's a lot of question marks because usually when I'm writing about foreign lobbying, you know, I'm able to go to the firm's website. I'm able to see um

[16:35] you know the bios of the people that are representing these people but but like the the influencer contract for example I can't even confirm the identity of the people that are that are carrying that out because there's no website with with a bio or anything like that. >> How do the Israelis gauge success in something like this? Is it just by looking at public opinion polls after the fact? >> Probably. I think um yeah, I I imagine so. I imagine that's

[17:06] that's certainly one metric of success. I mean, I think that you know, it's interesting that you noted um in in part in that CHP BT firm's case, Clock Tower X, the their metric of success that they're going for is impressions. um you know, 50 million impressions per month, which I think might sound like a lot to people that are kind of outside of, you know, the social media space, but like realistically, if you're spending $6

[17:38] million and you're only expecting to get 50 million impressions per month, >> um that's not 50 million interactions. It's not 50 million people who click on the link to check it out. It's just impressions. just impressions, which is like notoriously one of the easiest or maybe worst um metrics for for success because um it's pretty I mean you can boost posts, you can do all kinds of things that might

[18:09] give the impression that you're getting more views, but like that doesn't translate necessarily to either engagement or actually swaying opinion polls. I mean, if if um I imagine that's like a metric that the firm proposed to Israel as a way to measure their success, as a way of showing that they're probably having more impact than they actually are. Um but but yeah, you know, if you're if you're BB Netanyahu and you're worried about the threat of

[18:40] um of Gen Z um breaking in support for Israel, you're seeing these polls. Um then yeah, your your your metric of success is not going to be impressions. It's going to be okay, what's coming out of, you know, Gallup or whatever. Um we need to get that 9% number up. Is there any indication at all or or did you find any indication in the course of your research that perhaps the American taxpayer is ultimately paying for this service?

[19:11] >> I mean in a way people have pointed out online that that it's sort of circular, right? Because we've given Israel >> so much money over the course of the USIsrael relationship. >> Um then you know I think what what is the figure? something like 250 billion over the last um 80 years or so. I think it might might even be higher. Um and so people have pointed out kind of that circular nature, right? Where like Israel that money flows from the US uh to Israel and then Israel has uh this

[19:41] public diplomacy budget um which it then uses to try and influence how people view Israel. I think um last year the budget was $140 million for public diplomacy and that includes anything from this kind of work to financing trips you know delegations to go to Israel like um you know different people that are that are prominent that that might have a prominent voice on this topic. Um and we've actually seen that

[20:12] that Israel is is has increased that budget. I mean they appropriated I think 140 million for fiscal year 2025 and just last week herets reported that they had increased that by $40 million just through the end of this year. So you know there is kind of a circular nature where it goes from the US to Israel. Israel then has this budget where they spend a lot of money trying to influence how other countries in particular the US because they rely so heavily on US support. Um and then that money kind of trickles back into the US in a weird

[20:43] way. And um a lot of these firms, these kind of again ghost firms sort of cash those checks. >> Did you find any indication that Brad Parcke's firm is not the only one providing this kind of service? The reason I ask is that the Israelis are practically legendary in going after elected officials, for example, who are not sufficiently pro-Israel. they will primary the daylights out of people and more often

[21:15] than not they win. I'm wondering if if it's not just this kind of quiet behind the scenes influencer driven propaganda that we're seeing that it's something tougher, something stronger, something more in your face. Was there any indication that it was something beyond just what this company is doing? >> Oh yeah. I mean I mean there are a lot of different um a lot of different things that that Israel is doing. Um there there are a

[21:46] number of firms that have registered under Farah that that give far fewer details around what they're doing for Israel. Um and that's something that you know me as a you know as a researcher looking at these firms and knowing that that Farah has requirements for their transparency is it can be kind of annoying. Um, but like there were there were six different firms that registered for Israel this this month and that a lot of them just give indications like there's one called um targeted

[22:16] communications that that says that it's doing media outreach on behalf of of Israel. There's another one called Genesis 2021. Um, and they don't give many indication of what exactly they're doing. Um, but there's one interesting through line between all of these firms, which is that it's being run um out of a company um in Germany called Havos Germany. And so, Havos has actually been working for Israel for quite a long time. I think initially it started

[22:47] working for Israel in 2014. Um, but it's although it didn't register under Farah, I believe until 2018. Um and and so this company in Germany has been subcontracting all of these firms. Um and so a lot of it is being run out of there. Um so that's kind of the you know the more we know about what Habas Germany is is doing um the better. But it seems like Israel has really entrusted its um its strategy, its

[23:20] social media strategy in reaching out to these people. um you know whether that's more surreptitious tactics behind the scenes training the algorithms or the more in-your-face stuff um like paying influencers directly and all these things. It seems like all of that runs through this company. >> Let me ask you I I know you're not a lawyer. You're you're a researcher and a and I would call you a journalist as well. Um, but it I I am struck by by Israel's

[23:52] forwardness in trying to purchase influencers. I I'll just come right out and say it. Trying to purchase influencers by by paying them uh per post. Again, I know you're not an attorney, but is that legal? I mean technically these influencers would be working on behalf of the foreign government which would then make them liable >> to FRA regulations. They would have to register as a a foreign agent.

[24:24] >> Is that happening or is somehow getting around this? No, I'm I'm I'm very glad you asked that question because uh no, I'm not a lawyer, but I have been speaking to quite a few experts on Farah um you know and they have told me that because I had the same suspicion, you know, um the that the influencers themselves should be registering um under Farah and they're not um they have not registered under Farah. We don't actually know who those influencers are.

[24:55] We don't know who's getting paid to post on behalf of Israel. Um and according to the letter of the law, we should we should know who those influencers are. Um because if you are distributing information on behalf of a foreign government um in in in an intent to uh influence either US political opinion or policy makers, then the US public deserves to know uh what the details of the contract and who you are. I mean, the same way Marjorie Taylor Green

[25:26] actually pointed this out in a um a few a couple of posts on on X and then also I think she went on the One American News show and talked to Matt Gates about this, but she was pointing out that like we have these these rules in place. Um and when you're when you're scrolling through X, when you're scrolling through Instagram or Tik Tok, if you if a if an influencer is promoting a brand, they will usually make that clear. you know, it'll usually say like hashtagbranddeal. Um, if you're seeing sponsored content

[25:57] on X, it'll say it'll mark it sponsored. Um, and so we have these these rules in place so that people can see can know that that is not just organic content that is appearing on their feed that that it's that it's sponsored in some way by a corporation that has interests in promoting those materials. And um Farah, you know, FHA is a law that was created a very long time ago um in the 30s and it's been updated very few times

[26:28] since then, but it does actually have guidance. I mean, when you register when you register under FHA, then it gives you guidance on how you can comply with FHA. And it even gives you guidance on um how to to stay within the letter of the law when posting on social media. And it and it and it says that that you should attach what's called a conspicuous statement which is a statement that basically says um this information is being distributed

[26:58] on behalf of X Y or Z. And so we actually see this like when when other registered foreign agents are posting on X. Um, I I I'm I had an article about this on Friday in which I'm I I >> I brought up the example of Rod Bgoyovich, the former Illinois governor. He's currently a a registered foreign agent of Republic of Serbsky, which is a political entity in Bosnia. And when he posts on X um on behalf of Republica Serbska, he's he's very transparent

[27:28] about it. you know, he he um follows the letter of the law and he always says, you know, whatever the content is, and then he'll follow it up by saying, "By the way, this is a a sponsored post by Republica Serpska, just FYI." Um, and that expectation there there's that expectation for any registered foreign agent that's distributing content on behalf of a foreign government. So these influencers, not only should they be registering under Farah, but they should also be mentioning within the contents

[28:01] of their posts or on their profile themselves that they are producing this content, disseminating this content on behalf of Israel. I have to say too, this is not a difficult process. It's specifically meant to be an easy process. Back in 2008, I won a small contract uh with the the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce, right? And it was to write six op-eds uh promoting American business in Abu

[28:33] Dhabi, American investment in Abu Dhabi. So, I wrote these six articles and placed them in different newspapers or syndication services around the country. And I went on to the Pharaoh website. It's f a whatever.gov. Uh so it's not >> just in case anyone's listening. >> Yeah. And um and I just went on and I said my name and my address and my phone number. I said that uh it was the the contract was with the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce. This is how much they paid

[29:04] me and this is what I did for the pay. And you hit enter and it's done. If you don't do that, the price can be very high. You probably remember um a Russian woman by the name of Maria Buthina. Maria Bhina was a grad student at American University. She considered herself to be an exchange student, although whether or not she was, I think, is probably irrelevant. But anyway, she was the co-founder of the Russian version of the National Rifle

[29:34] Association. So, she came to the United States to go to school, but then reached out to the NRA and other pro-second amendment um organizations to try to sort of forge relationships between them. The Justice Department fell on her head like a ton of bricks and they said, "You're doing this on behalf of the Russian government." She argued that she wasn't and they convicted her of not registering under Farah. So, what the what the crime comes down to is that she

[30:06] failed to fill out an internet form. Right now, the federal sentencing guidelines call for a sentence, and this is a felony, by the way. Almost everything is a felony for the federal government. But anyway, the federal sentencing guidelines call for a sentence of 0 to six months. She got 18 months, every day of which was in solitary confinement. Well, Nick, I haven't seen any articles in the Washington Post or the New York

[30:37] Times saying that pro-Israel influencers or pro-Israel lobbyists have been arrested and charged with violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act. So, what's up with that? I think a lot of it has to do with the the double standard that exists. um that um you know another example out of Russia was last year there were um there were two RT employees that were um

[31:09] indicted um because they were there was this company called Tenant Media that was a lot of people will be familiar with this case but um they were secretly paying influencers and they got indicted because of it. Um, and you know, the influencers say they they had no idea the source of the um the money. And I almost see this case with the influencers being paid as sort of like the the inverse of that where it's like the influencers um the influencers have to know, right?

[31:41] Because this is a case in which there the contract is now public. And and by the way, for Farah, there is a a what's called a a willfulness clause um that they have to um kind of knowingly violate Farah um that they have to know like the source of the money for instance. And I think it would be hard for them not to know at this point because the contract is is public. There's been quite a bit of buzz around them um around a cohort of influencers

[32:11] that are being being paid by Israel. You know, I'm I should say I'm not I'm not a lawyer. Um, so, so I'm not sure. I'm just pontificating a little bit here, but um, but yeah, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with the the double standard here. You know, that in one case it's Russia and another case it's Israel. Um, we've seen very few people even, you know, especially elected officials really want to talk about this. We saw Marjorie Taylor Green um come out with a public statement um noting that the the influencers should be marking their

[32:42] content as branded, but other than that, it's been um very quiet from from Capitol Hill on this. >> Want to ask you too about um the reaction to your piece. people on both the left and the right uh read the the Quincy um Institute website every day. I I check it constantly. Um it's it's a serious research-driven um news source. So, what has the

[33:13] reaction been to this piece? >> The Well, the number one reaction has been, "How do I get in on this cheddar?" Like, >> yes, >> no joke. Right. >> People are like, "Yeah, I I mean, >> hey, free money. The Israelis are handing out free money. How do I get some?" >> Exactly. 7K per post. I mean, people will say anything for that kind of money, right? Um, >> so that's been that's that's been the number one. And I and I and I wish I could direct them to to um some kind of application process or something. And hey, if that firm had a website, maybe

[33:45] they would more easily be able to get in touch with them. Um, so that's been the number one reaction. Uh but the the other reaction I would say is just like I mean people is is just outrage. I mean outrage over the fact that um that that this is happening and in particular we don't know who those those influencers are. Um so you know you see you see all kinds of of reactions but I think um I think people are starting to

[34:16] pay attention to the ways in which Israel is conducting a lot of a lot of this outreach. Um and and by the way um I'd like to just mention one other um contract that Israel just um just contracted uh a few days ago. It's it's a firm that that I think just illustrates a lot of this even further, like the the extent to which they're going to conduct this kind of outreach. They hired a firm called Show Faith by Works, which is California-based. Um,

[34:47] and it's um it's a firm that's conducting a lot of outreach to Christians to it has a list of of dozens and dozens I think over a hundred different churches uh in in the American Southwest. And um a and what it's doing is that it's geo fencing all of those churches to put targeted which by the way geofencing is a um it's a it's what it

[35:17] is it basically isolates different locations geographically so that if you enter a particular area you are you could be targeted with certain ads. It's the same thing that like if you walk by a um like an AT&T store or you're within a mile of an AT&T store, you might see more AT&T ads. Um and this firm was hired on a $4 million contract to geoence um major churches um with pro-Israel ads, with pro-Israel

[35:49] content. Um, so if you are and they're going to be tracing the attendees of these churches. So a lot of churchgoers and they're mostly evangelical churches um are are now being tracked by Israel and going to be inundated with with pro-Israel um content. And I mean the whole thing is kind of wild. Another aspect of that contract is there's going to be a like popup called the October 7th experience in which um

[36:20] people get to hear the stories of IDF soldiers and talk about how hard it is for them um to go after and this is a direct quote quote unquote bad guys um in conflict zones and really just hear like a a very um pro-Israel perspective on at a lot of these these churches um and that story that has gotten very little attention. Um, and you know, it it just is another firm under Farah that like it goes to show you the lengths to

[36:51] which they're going to conduct this kind of outreach across the US. >> Yeah. Not to get too far a field, but one of the things that has both surprised me and and bothered me a great deal is the viciferousness with which American evangelicals and evangelical churches have unquestioningly supported Israel at at a great cost to indigenous

[37:21] uh Christian communities in Palestine. Right. There have been there have been Christians in Palestine for 2,000 years. I mean, obviously it's it's where Christianity originated. Uh there are Palestinian Orthodox Christians, Palestinian Catholics who are being wiped out, literally wiped out. Their homes being forcibly taken. They're being expelled from the country. Most of them, frankly, have moved to the United States. And the evangelical churches are

[37:52] perfectly happy to be party to that. And they don't see the irony or the hypocrisy that's involved in that kind of a policy. >> I just don't understand. >> Yeah. And and all of that history that you're mentioning from that is um is absent from the the outreach that this firm is conducting. Obviously, I mean, they're presenting a very um they describe it as like pro-Israel and not just pro-Israel, but anti-Palestinian talking points, and they're talking about how, you know, Israel is is on

[38:24] their side, and they're they're they're erasing a lot of that history, frankly. I mean, you don't see um mention of that in in those documents. >> What can you tell me about the view of all of this uh from Capitol Hill? Is is there really anybody that's interested in Farah or the failure to register under Farah? Is there anybody that's interested in pursuing this to the next level? For example, maybe looking at the influencers and the money they're taking.

[38:56] >> It's possible. I I you know, I I would just love to um you know, I've been talking to a few staffers here and there about this. Um, Marjorie Taylor Green is the only one that's that's gone on record about this. Um, but you know, I I I absolutely think that that Capitol Hill needs to take this seriously. I mean, um, especially, you know, if you are at the very least write a letter or something, you know, I think that, um, that that or at least some kind of

[39:26] public statement saying that these influencers need to be um, following the letter of the law. I mean, Farah has been um gutted in a lot of ways by the Trump administration. Um you know, Pam Bondi issued this memo at the start of the Trump administration saying that they were only going to enforce Farah in cases of quote unquote traditional espionage. Um but that doesn't negate the fact that the influencers themselves have to comply with Farah. I mean, Farah is still the letter of the law. I mean, it might not be traditional espionage.

[39:57] I'm certainly not saying that they need to be criminally charged or anything, but they need to be like Farah needs to send a letter to these to the firm um saying, "Hey, by the way, you're missing some information." Um there are a few people um 14 to 18 to be specific um uh short form registrants, foreign agents that are missing from this contract. Um so you know if if you're a member of Congress and you're looking um you know and you're concerned about the ways in which foreign governments uh have

[40:29] influence over the US um and concerned about the especially lack of transparency that we sometimes have um about foreign government influence into the US then this is like a slam dunk I think that they should be engaging um in um but you see a lot of silence and complacency from people that don't necessarily want to waste political capital on something like this. >> So, what's what's next on this and what's next for you at the Quincy

[41:01] Institute? >> I'm going to keep um following this and seeing um what else is out there. Um, you know, I I expect at at the rate that this is going that there are going to be um more firms that that that register um under under the forgration act for for Israel. And um people can also uh you know, I have a tip line open. I've got an email in my my Twitter bio that um I would love to hear from you if you have any information about any of this kind these kinds of stories. Um as for the Quincy Institute, you know, we've got

[41:32] bunch of different programs. I encourage folks to check out our website. you know, this kind of work is really just um me and my team um you know, we we write about defense policy, military-industrial complex, the influence industry, think tank funding, those kinds of things. But we have other programs that focus on uh the global south, East Asia, Middle East, um and also, you know, a um attempt to um take on like UN Security Council reform and things like that, envisioning what a future international order could look

[42:02] like. So, we have all th those kinds of programs on our on our website. Um, and then we've also got this this online magazine that you mentioned, responsible statecraftraft, which is kind of um yeah, our online magazine that produces a lot of more short form analysis and reporting um than the long form research. So, I encourage folks to to check out those those two websites if you haven't already. Yeah, I happened to be in Los Angeles last week uh for for a series of podcasts. And one of the things that struck me, it

[42:33] was just kind of coincidence that that three of the podcasters that I spoke with over the course of the week were not just Armenian, Armenian American, but they were actually naturalized American citizens from Armenia. and independently of one another. All they wanted to talk about was the Turks and how the Turks are getting away with murder and the Turks don't register under Farah and the Turks uh have all the best law firms and the Turks have the best lobbying firms and then the Armenians don't stand a chance against the Turks. And I said, look, I I'm a I'm

[43:05] a Greek citizen. I'm a dual US Greek citizen. I said, "Greece has money and is, you know, western in orientation and it can't compete against the Turks." Well, imagine having to compete against the Israelis. It's just not possible. There's not enough money, especially when the deck is so stacked that it's not just Israeli money we're talking about here. It's probably American taxpayer money as well. This is a tough uphill fight

[43:35] >> with a long way to go. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's it's um it's a it's a it's a battle between kind of this like astrourf top-down campaign coming out of Israel where they're contracting this German company which is then subcontracting a ton of different firms um to produce this kind of content against um what is this you know these this like organic um

[44:07] movement of people that are questioning what is this historical ironclad relationship between the US and Israel. Um, and that's not to say of course there are people that are are very pro-Israel and have these kinds of of views and and deny that you know starvation is taking place that believe that the Gaza humanitarian foundation is doing a good job. all these things that that those people exist very naturally in the US as well of course but um but yeah you know it especially when you don't know which influencers are being

[44:38] paid or who is being targeted by this it becomes very difficult um to discern you know what's organic and what's not and I think that's um a difficulty in um following this in in trying to parse out you know what's organic and what's not. >> And that's the rub right there. That's the very reason why the Farah Statute was written in the first place was transparency and we're just not getting

[45:08] it. >> Yeah. >> Well, Nick Cleveland Stout, uh, tell us again what you're working on in the in the near future at Responsible Statecraft. We can send people to the, uh, to the website. >> All kinds of things. Um they'll have to they'll have to wait and see. Um but yeah, come go to Responsible Statecraft. Uh I believe the URL is yeah, responsible.org. Um we're we're putting out at least a few articles a day on there and um and encourage folks to check it out and um

[45:40] yeah, that's that's all I'll say about that. I'll be a little bit cryptic. >> Yeah, that's okay. Okay. Nick Cleveland Stout is a research associate in the democratizing foreign policy program at the Quincsey Institute for Responsible Statecraft. Previously he conducted research on US Brazil relations as a 2023 Fulbright fellow at the federal university of Santa Catarina with a particular focus on the influence of American think tanks in Brazil. He's been published in of course uh responsible statecraft the nation the intercept the Brazilian report instick

[46:12] and the national interest. And please folks, do me the personal favor. If you like the conversation or other conversations that we've had, please take uh just a second to subscribe, share, like, tell your friends, leave a comment, whatever makes you happy. So, Nick, thanks for being with us. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us. We'll see you next time.
