Title: The Deep Focus Show
Show: The Deep Focus Show
Date: 2025-09-05
URL: https://youtu.be/ajooPBe19Fc
Duration: 41:00

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[00:03] Under our law, corporations are the, you know, have the rights of of individuals in many respects, but they don't that they don't have to meet the standards of individuals. You know, they they they get the they get the protection that individuals get, but they can't go to jail. You can't put a corporation in jail, but you can put its leaders in jail, but we don't. For the most part, we don't. Hi, I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. Do you ever feel like the

[00:34] economic deck is stacked against you? You work hard, more than 40 hours a week, and you just can't get ahead. Inflation takes a bite. Medical insurance is prohibitive. College costs if you have kids are astronomical. Well, maybe the deck actually is stacked against you. Maybe that's the plan. And what if you're a country and not a person? You have some economic problems for whatever reason, but then you go to the likes of the the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund or Wall

[01:05] Street for help. You're humiliated and essentially you're taken over. The question then isn't is that the goal? The question is why is that the goal? Well, we're happy to be joined today by one of the most articulate and respected voices on international economic affairs and banking who's out there. John Perkins is a highly respected author and commentator best known for his book Confessions of an Economic Hitman in which he describes playing a role in a process of economic colonialization of

[01:38] third world countries on behalf of what he describes as a cabal of corporations, banks, international financial institutions, and the US government. John, thanks so much for joining us. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. >> It's my pleasure to be with you, John. It's good to finally meet you, even if from a if from a distance. >> Mine. >> I feel like we've known each other for a long time already. >> I wanted to start if we could with with a big picture view. I spent a lot of time at the CIA, including in countries

[02:09] that were economic basket cases. They all had one thing in common, massive foreign debt, exactly the kind of debt that you have warned about. Why is it then that countries as diverse as Argentina, Yemen, Greece, Pakistan, and others keep going back to the World Bank? They keep going back to the IMF or to the US or to Wall Street when they know what's going to happen to them. Why do they do that? >> Well, there's a number of reasons, but

[02:41] perhaps the most obvious one is that their leaders benefit from that. uh what we might call corruption, but since it's legal, it's legally not corruption. But you know, the the people who run most of these countries are connected to and are their families own the big businesses in these countries, the things like uh the banks and the industries and and all the merchant establishments, the big ones. And uh so they benefit from these debts because the debts are used to build

[03:11] better highways, uh electrical systems, uh airports and ports and and industrial parks, things that really help them but don't help most of the people out in the might call the capo are the farmers, the people. In fact, they they're hurt by this because a lot of the interest payments on the debt coming from things that should go to social services. if they come from funds that should be paying for education, health care and other social services. But the wealthy

[03:42] and the powerful in these countries really benefit and incidentally they are also the ones who end up working in high places in the World Bank in the IMF. So it's their cronies calling the shots there. So it's it really is kind of this what we might call it. I don't mean to sound sexist, but the old boy network, you know, now it's an old boy girl network. Uh, and so it's it's it's it benefits them that way. And in addition, they get some other private perks like one of the things we used to offer was, you know,

[04:13] if you sign this loan, we'll make sure, Mr. President, that you and your and your family and all your friends and their families, all your kids get get into colleges in in in the United States. Good colleges. We've got really good connections. We're a Bostonbased firm, the firm I worked for. We have really good connections with MIT, Harvard, Boston University, all these amazing colleges. we'll get you in and we'll give you full scholarships. And that's worth a lot of money and it's totally legal. In fact, we bragged about it. You know, we we tell the Boston Globe, "Hey, last year we gave $3

[04:44] million to scholarships to people that from from poor countries in Latin America." Didn't bother to mention that we gave the scholarships to the families that really didn't need them. And that's just one example of of of of blatant corruption that is not corruption because it's totally legal. We were careful not to break any of the laws around bribery and corruption, but there were so many other ways to do it. You wrote at length in uh Confessions of

[05:15] an Economic Hitman about the nexus between the firm where you worked and NSA, the National Security Agency, and you took a lot of heat for that, including from people in the mainstream media who said that that you had made it up. In fact, though, when the New York Times went back and investigated the book, they found that you had indeed told the truth. So, we know that the likes of the CIA, NSA, the FBI, and other three-letter agencies u use international

[05:45] organizations and banks as cover. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Tell us why NSA would be so interested in having a foot in high level international finance. Well, all of these agencies are are connected with what I like to call the corportocracy, uh, which is, you know, made up of government officials and corporate presidents and and you know, there's this revolving door. So those people are often one and the same that the people

[06:16] Yeah. I often get a situation where somebody in charge of of regulating the oil industry came right out of working for Texico or or Chevron or somebody and and they're going to go back into that industry when they get out of government. So again, it's part of this old boy network. And so, you know, the NSA, the CIA, the the, you know, all of these agencies uh are so closely tied with this whole goal of corportocratizing the world, of making the world basically

[06:48] a corporate empire. It's not exactly an American empire, which is interesting because if you take like Caliber and recently moved to, you know, the Middle East and and have their offices, we the people of the United States don't benefit from this for the most part. There may be some benefits, but it's really a corporate uh a corporate global empire that's that's supported by the US government in a very big way. Even to the point of sending in troops if if an

[07:18] oil company is threatened in in in Colombia is what happened two years ago. uh the United States will actually send in troops or they call them advisers but they really members of our military that go in and and run things. Uh so so our government supports this but the American people I don't benefit I mean you can make an argument that when your when when your country has the prominent language in the world and the dollar is the prominent currency when I go to other

[07:50] countries I benefit from that. Yes. But overall, I think we we suffer. And I think we're seeing that today with a huge backlash against us in favor of China. John, I remember sitting next to the Greek ambassador to the United States at an event back in 2008, I guess it was at John's Hopkins University. The Greek deputy prime minister, who was also the finance minister, was giving a presentation on what was looking to be an economic

[08:22] catastrophe in the making in Greece. I turned to the ambassador and I said to him, I don't see how you're going to get out of this. And he said, "Neither do I." So, what happened was what everybody would have predicted. It was this endless cycle of negotiations between Greece and the World Bank and the IMF and the European Central Bank. They essentially took over the country. But then word leaked out that Price Waterhouse Coopers, the Greek

[08:53] government's auditor, had been falsifying economic records for years. Um Goldman Sachs was involved in the falsification of those records. But in the end, nobody from PWC or from Goldman Sachs or for that matter, you know, the Greek government was ever prosecuted and the Greeks are now indebted for generations to come to these powerful Western uh entities. What should have been done or or could things have been done differently?

[09:26] Well, I I think Greece really became the fall boy for uh the catastrophe, the financial catastrophe that swept through Europe and much of the world back in those back in back in the 2008, 2007, 2008 at that time. And you know, I have to say, I mean, I to a certain degree that the the the Greek government has to take responsibility because there was a lot of corruption. But you've always got to ask yourself, who does the corruption? Who does the corrupt? I mean, we talk about corruption in

[09:56] Greece. We talk about corruption in Latin American countries and African countries, but you got to ask yourself, who's doing the corruption? I was one of those people. And I don't know whether you with the CIA got involved in that at all, but I mean, that was part of my job was, as I've mentioned before, legal corruption and and and it can be done illegally, too. But who who's doing the corruption and and for what reason? Uh but you know I I I think you you also hit upon a very important point which is the individuals involved whether it's in Greece or anywhere else in the world

[10:28] don't get taken down. The companies may get fined. The companies may may or may not admit to guilt. Sometimes they don't admit to guilt. Sometimes they do. They get fined. They they they struck a deal. But nobody goes to prison. Nobody gets slapped on the wrist even uh because they're protected by the corporations. And you know under our law corporations are have the you know have the rights of of individuals in many respects but they don't that they don't have to meet the standards of individuals. You know they

[10:59] they they get the they get the protection that individuals get but they can't go to jail. You can't put a corporation in jail but you can put its leaders in jail but we don't for the most part. >> That's exactly right. You know, in Greece, I served in Greece from 1998 to 2000 and and I travel back to Greece regularly all the time. Uh they had a defense minister by the name of Akis Tohadopulos. This guy was the definition of corruption. I remember um I remember

[11:30] reading in the paper that he had bought a new house and it was directly across the street from the Parthonon. And I I knew what those houses went for, right? I read the real estate section of the Greek papers. This guy makes $80,000 a year and he buys a $6 million house. And then he's hosting parties. It's nicer than the prime minister's mansion. And so finally, finally, his corruption was so bad that they they did something about it. And they found that he had taken millions of dollars in bribes from

[12:02] Seammens, the German company, to um to throw it was a submarine contract their way. And he was arrested, his wife was arrested, his daughter was arrested, his son-in-law. They had been spreading the wealth. Yeah. >> And he's sentenced to life without parole. Okay. Then they let him out two years later and they said, "Oh, he's an old man. He served his country for all those years honorably. He made a

[12:33] mistake." Well, okay. What about the $6 million house that he bought? Well, where's what are we going to put him in the street? He can he can keep the house. All right. So, two years later, they're all out of prison. He's still in the giant house. And it's like, h, you know, everybody forgot about it or forgave it or and for the for the Greeks, like the the man on the street, Greeks, they would just shake their heads and say, well, that's that's Greece. >> Does that remind you at all, John, of

[13:04] what's been going on in this country in the last few months with >> isn't that the tr the truth? >> January, January 6, etc., etc., etc. I mean, think about it. >> Yeah. >> And I want I'd like to ask you, so can can you talk at all about what were you doing in Greece? Were you involved in these kinds of deals? Were you bribing people? >> Thank God. Uh I would be so ashamed if I had to tell you yes. I was in uh counterterrorism operations. So my job was was to work with the Greek uh intelligence service and the Greek

[13:34] police to disrupt. At first it was Arab uh it was Abuidal and the Libyans and the PFLP and the DFLP. Um and then it became very specific to the Greek groups revolutionary organization 17 November popular revolutionary struggle. So we're we're jetting around Europe interviewing old men who used to be in the red brigades and axion direct and B minehoff gang and you remember those those groups from the 70s. They were all old men by the time I got involved. But no, if I

[14:07] had something to do with economics, I would be so ashamed of myself today. What about uh Okay, I I'm not going to go there. Forget it. But isn't Greece one of those places where the where the where the CIA has some black black holes and some some some some places where they interrogate people that they wouldn't >> Oh. Oh my god. Thank God for that too. Another thing I would have been So I've become a Greek citizen, I should add. >> Oh, excellent. So you you speak Greece. >> Oh yeah, I speak Greek. I got my citizenship. My kids all have Greek

[14:38] citizenship. >> You're so lucky. You know what? To tell you the honest to God's truth, I I had it in the back of my mind that if I needed to bolt one day, >> I ought to have the proper paperwork to do it. >> Yeah. I was in I was in Greece last uh about about two years ago and just I love Greece. I I spent time there when I was an economic hitman, too. Uh, we went went to bunch of the islands and and and and you can't beat the history and the

[15:10] >> you can't beat it. I wanted to tell you too, I was in Argentina. >> I'm going to say I was in Argentina 22 or 23 years ago, you had warned about the likes of Elliot Associates, one of the big hedge funds based in New York. And the reason I bring up Argentina is that Elliot bought millions, maybe billions of dollars in Argentine government bonds, which were essentially junk bonds, and Elliot

[15:43] demanded repayment, and it literally pushed Argentina into bankruptcy. So I wanted to ask you on a broader level what what's the role of hedge funds in some of these terrible economic stories the these terrible stories about the the loss of economic sovereignty and should individual banks and investment houses have that kind of power and authority over a country I don't think they should but the question is what do we do about it you

[16:13] know the idea of the vulture funds that you know this whole huge business in that of going into countries like Argentina and many others and buying up these securities or other forms of debt that that that have basically downgraded to nothing to zero essentially and and then and then demanding that the country repay them. And it's a you know it's another it's a crime. It's a it's you know it's just it's a crime. that it how do you how do you prevent these things

[16:43] when you've got these massive governmental institutions on in both countries the United States and Argentina backing them and and and going along with it and playing a role in it probably what Argentine politicians were benefiting from this we don't know but I suspect there were a few that were doing that Argentina is such a prime example of an incredibly amazing country with incredible things >> wonderful resources and culture and and and great restaurants,

[17:16] >> great amazing worldclass restaurants. I that was the first time I had been to Argentina and I remember even on the first day just looking around and saying, "Wow, I could live here." >> And then you learn what a corrupt economic basket case it is. >> Oh. >> And then you have to ask yourself, how do these poor people survive? >> Yeah. >> It's just Yeah, that's a And and yet they survive. They they they look they look great, you know? They're very fashionable and uh I remember being there in the in the in the 70s when the in the military gentto was and I was

[17:47] there with the US uh major general uh who was a senior vice president in my company Charles T. Maine and and we were there together because Maine was in deeply involved in the uh design and and construction of a huge hydroelectric project that connected that was on the on the Parano River between between Orway and and and Argentina. And you know there were these roadblocks all over the place. You you drive along, you know, these guys would jump out at you

[18:18] from with a roadblock with with these automatic weapons pointed at you. and and I felt I was fortunate to be there with the US Army general frankly and you know he had all of his credentials and he was he was retired but uh they they respected that and we were working with the uh with the Genta in a in an indirect manner through the Interamerican Development Bank and the World Bank and the IMF who were all involved as was the US government supporting that terrible government and we were doing something similar in Chile

[18:50] and throughout Latin America. and and a lot of the rest of the world. It was it was just it was outrageous when you come right down to it. And that that that sent Argentina into a tail spin. It already had gone through the whole perone. It had it's been going through problems for a long time, but I think it that was a that that that decade of the 70s was such a monumental moment in in the history of Argentina and so much of Latin America. and the Argentines were, you know, were deeply

[19:22] connected. There were a lot of rumors, which I can't prove, that that the CIA would would call on their counterparts in Argentina to do that dirty work in Latin America. So, the CIA didn't actually do it. That's more that's one of the allegations around the the the the alleged assassination of of Omar Trios of Panama that it was actually done by the Argentines. None none of this can be proven, but uh there's enough people feeling that way that you got to suspect there's some truth around around it someplace. And you probably

[19:52] know more about that than I do. I I I believe those stories to tell you the truth. Um because I know how the CIA operates and uh you know, one of the things they taught us in training and we we came to see it kind of as a bad joke was always let others do your dirty work. always. So you have at least plausible deniability. Why would you want to kill Omar Dio um when you can get the Argentines to do

[20:24] it, >> right? >> Why why why would you want to go after Chilean leftists when you can put Pinoch in power and have him do it, >> right? >> It it's sick. >> Yeah. >> But it's a it's a fact of life. >> Well, it's a story of empire. Yes, it is. That's exactly what it is. >> And done throughout history. And and I think this gets us to I'm often asked, so what's the big problem? Yeah. I talk about how we have a death economy, an economic system that's consuming and polluting itself into extinction. We

[20:56] have the opportunity right now to move into a life economy, an economy that used solar and wind and you know, regenerates destroyed environments, plants, trees, and so on and so forth. And people ask me, so what's the biggest thing holding us back? And my answer is is leadership. Uh that the the world's leaders don't don't want that. And we're seeing that very clearly in the United States today, but we're also seeing it in Russia and in China and and and in Argentina with Malay. I mean, he's he's in that same

[21:28] category. Uh so so it's it's I I think that's that's in throughout history you look at leadership is always the controlling factor and at at the early stage of the United States I think it you know was it's a very mixed bag because my dad used to say and my dad was a fairly conservative Republican but he used to say you know the American Revolution just replaced the monarchy with a with an oligarchy in the United States and George Washington was part of

[21:59] that. But Washington also I think was a very very a guy with great integrity and you know he he denied serving a third term. They they really wanted him to because they said no no no I want to set a precedent. The president should not be president for more than two terms. I I think we were lucky to have that kind of leadership at the beginning despite its falls. Uh but uh things have gone down downhill >> very much so. Um, c could you have even imagined 20 years ago that there would

[22:32] be an American worth $444 billion? How does an individual in a lifetime accumulate $444 billion of wealth other than by stealing it or making it on the backs of all other Americans? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I understand Jeff Bezos had this great idea to sell books online, but is Jeff Bezos really worth a $400 billion? You know, Elon Musk uh signed a new contract what a couple of weeks ago in

[23:04] which he got a $46 billion signing bonus. What's that? And here we are 50 years after these economic problems uh cropped up. as an example, in Argentina or in Chile or in Brazil even. And 50 years later, they're struggling with exactly the same problems. And on top of those problems, just like we have here in the United States, much of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of of

[23:36] individuals. Few individuals. Yeah. But you know the other thing, John, I think it's important and and you you with your history with the CIA to to really look at how uh how the United States is playing into the hands of China now. So So this we all this the things we're talking about were done to create an empire that was supported by the United States and and the big all these big corporations. And you and I both were

[24:07] involved in this process. a lot of people were a lot of money was spent on this from that after World War II especially after World War II going on through through all these decades and yet today it's all being torn down and you know China's been on the on the rise anyway but uh we we've been we made a lot of mistakes before uh this particular time in history we you know we we we devoted so many resources to Iraq and and Afghanistan

[24:38] Well, uh, we we it pretty much ignored Africa and Latin America. China moved into America, Latin America and and Africa >> didn't successfully. >> But yeah, but now in the in most recent times, I mean, to to impose 50% tariffs on on India, where do you think India's got to turn to? >> Exactly. >> The Indians have robust trade relations with both China and Russia. >> Yeah. if they if they can't sell their goods to the United States because of 50% tariffs, no problem. They'll just go

[25:10] to their new markets. >> Right. Right. So, you know, we're so playing into the hands of of of China, it's a um well, we'll have to see where this is all taking us. and and and from from from a real human perspective, the biggest problem is that all of us, whether we're in China or the United States or Russia, are ignoring the real existential threat to humanity, which is, you know, a an economic system

[25:42] that's destroying us. It's causing climate change. Climate change is a problem, but it's not the problem. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem which is this which is a system that's based on maximizing short-term materialistic consumption and for corporations short-term profits and the corporations ought to run the world basically on this with this goal of maximizing short-term profits regardless of the social and environmental costs. So we've we've so that's the that's the bigger problem and the Chinese buy into that same sort of

[26:12] scenario. the Russians do. Uh we do basically everybody does. And that that to me is the the shame of what what's happening now is that we're all being so distracted uh from that real existential problem by these created problems of of of antagonism between countries. Like come on, >> we're all living on this planet. You know, >> it's right the planet. a vested interest

[26:43] in success. >> Yeah, >> the plasma doesn't see the borders. You know, we know that from the pictures we take from satellites. I mean, if you go to Google maps, you'll see the borders, but if you go to really a bigger picture of the world, there are no borders. >> That's right. That's right, John. Let's say a country like Portugal or Ireland or Tunisia has a great deal of economic instability, right? They've got a refugee crisis. Energy prices are high.

[27:17] They need to get back on track. So, they turn to John Perkins for advice. What kind of advice would you give? Presuming that the advice wouldn't be to, you know, make an appointment with the World Bank, the IMF, and and Wall Street. What would you tell them? >> So, so, so what are they looking for from me? Advice is to do as to what do >> their economy is is suffering because they've got high debt, >> right? >> Okay. >> Manufacturing is off. They have a

[27:47] refugee crisis. Pretty much what we're seeing all over southern Europe and Northern Africa. >> Yeah. >> What What would you tell them to do? >> Yeah. I think first of all, it's it's to form alliances with other countries that are in in similar dire straits and and and actually leveraged this this uh competition between China and the United States to get much better financial conditions, loans, better terms and conditions for for loans. They need

[28:17] money in order to develop these things. They need markets and but if they can come together I recently was on a program out of Africa and was asked that same question. Uh I mean what what what about what would what what what advice uh should I give the the Kenyans and um you know it's like join get get every get all get all the African countries together you've got you've got more resources anywhere you're you're the richest continent in the world from a resource standpoint and the poorest

[28:50] from from an economic standpoint but you've also got the youngest population in the world. I think the the the the average population that the age of the average population right now is 19, you know, and and and China recognizes that and China's getting older older people. They they want they want to involve Africa more because they know they're going to need the young people to to subsidize the older people of China. So get these get together on this and and stand up form alliances and you know I

[29:21] think that's the only way this is going to work is if if these countries in Latin America and Africa there's a long history that makes that very difficult for them to do. I understand it's it's got huge obstacles, but that would be my advice that you've got to do that and then get the money to come in and make sure you get value added that if you've got all these mineral resources uh in Africa, you've got incredible amounts of things, lithium right now, which is such a huge thing, and and cobalt and and and other things, and make sure that you get

[29:52] money to build the industries there to process these materials and make the products from them, the batteries, whatever it you know, so get the value at it. And the only way you're going to really make that happen is if you guys unite and stand up to the world and incidentally, China recognizes that. And that's where the bricks bank comes in. >> You took the words right out of my mouth? I was going to ask you, is bricks the start of a solution? >> Well, bricks appears to many people in

[30:23] those countries as as as allowing them to move in that direction, you've got a big major uh power player in the world, China, that can help direct you in this this in this direction. But you know, the problem of course is that that China's goals are very probably very similar to the United States, and that's to build their own empire and have control over these things. So, you know, it's it it it it it maybe lights the way in that you need to unite. Uh I don't think it's

[30:56] quite as important. the brick stands for Brazil, Russia, India, South Africa and China. Uh, China and South Africa. You know, maybe that's a little bit too diverse. You know what what I think that the African countries could form their own union and the Latin American countries their union and then you could stand up to both China and the United States and you could leverage you know like oh we're going to go to China you know ch China is only going to require a 2% interest rate and the United States

[31:27] is requiring 7% or you know something and so then you get this competition but um United you know United stance. It's one of the reasons that the United States has been so successful is that we did we have been united on many many policies ever since the civil war. And isn't it interesting that Moamar Akadafi who would have agreed with everything you just said and actually was promoting African unity, he had turned away from

[31:59] the Arab League and was promoting African unity was taken out by the West. It's symbolic, isn't it? It's a miracle. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's not forget that he was threatening to use the gold diner uh as the currency for buying oil. >> That's exactly right. >> You don't you don't survive an attack on the US dollar. >> No. And that's >> he he he didn't. Saddam Hussein didn't and others haven't. >> That's right. >> John, what are the major economic

[32:30] mistakes that countries are making today in their economies? Is it is it a failure to diversify? Is it taking on too much debt? And how can countries begin to protect themselves? >> Well, again, your your diversification question is a is an important one because uh again, if you go to China with its idea of the new Silk Road, the Belgian and road initiative, uh it is saying to the world, look, you don't

[33:01] need to diversify. uh do whatever you do best. Use the resources that you have and we will help you uh get the value added from them by cooperating with other countries around the world. We'll help you build roads and railroads and ports and airports that help you trade with everybody. And they'll say, you know, well, the United States, if if you get a most most favored nation clause with the United States, let's say you're Ecuador, you have a most favored nation clause, and the United States says, "Oh, you know, we will, you know, we you'll

[33:32] have a great trading agreement with you." China goes in and says, "No, you don't need to trade with us. We're going to help you build a new port and airports and roads so that you can trade with Argentina and with with uh with South Africa and with India and all over the world. we're going to help you expand all of this so you can really focus on on the resources that you have best. And so, you know, this whole this whole idea of of of how do we how do we maximize trade? How do we maximize

[34:03] resources? Again, you can go to the United States, you know, we don't we don't try to get every state to be self-sufficient. Uh, you know, we say uh if one state has a lot of oil, let them produce more oil. And if another state is producing whatever eggs, let them let them sell eggs to the people producing the oil and and and so on. I mean, we've been we've been very strategic in this country about that between the states. But that's that model works for the world

[34:33] also. >> That's a good point. >> And China recognizes that again. China's using that. China's economic hitmen have just done a bangup job. you know, they've been so so efficient. I I found a great map here if I can find it. There it is. Uh that shows so this is two this is the year 2000. The United States was a number one trading partner with 80% of the world's countries. And this is the world 2020.

[35:04] China now is the number one trading partner with 80% of the world's countries. And it's gotten it's gotten more that that's gone even more toward China in the last five years. This is the oldest. This is the most recent one I have. But in the last 5 years, China has moved into some of these countries like these like Colombia, like the blue ones over here. Uh so I mean that's so telling that was that was in 20 years. 20 years. >> Yeah. And how did that happen? Because China's economic hitmen are damn good at

[35:35] their job. You know, I taught at an MBA program in Shanghai a few years back, and I realized as soon as I got there that why I was there was because they wanted to pick my brain about what mistakes I had made and the successes I've had and how to maximize the successes and minimize the mistakes, you know, and they've done that. >> But China seems like an exemplar. Are are there any other countries out there that are that are doing it right? Well, I'm not sure I would say China is

[36:05] doing it right, but what they are doing if I mean if you want to say becoming an empire is doing it right, they are doing that right for sure. And of course they they did have 10% roughly 10% economic growth every year for 30 years. They brought 900 million people out of dire poverty. Nobody else in the world has ever done anything like that. So yeah, they had a pretty successful model. And um that also is an incredible selling point for their economic hitman. You go

[36:36] to Argentina, you go to any country in the world and you say, "Hey, look at our model. Look at the success we've had." In the meantime, look at the United States. Your your your federal minimum wage rate hasn't increased since 1973. It's the minimum wage is the same today as it was in 1973 or 74. Do you want that model? You know, and what kind of economic growth is the United States had? Nothing compared to us. So, you know, these are all perceptions, but reality is molded by perception. And the

[37:07] Chinese are extremely good at at selling the perception of what they do so well and what the United States does so poorly. And we've we've played right into their hands, John. Right into their hands. >> I think you're right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. John, uh, I wanted to, uh, wrap up by asking your thoughts on the US economy, good, bad, or indifferent. The data seem to be pulling us in different directions at the same time. And does it

[37:37] matter that we're almost entirely a service economy now? Wow. I wish I had a a crystal ball to see where that's going to take us. uh but um I don't think it's a bad thing to be a service economy as long as the world is structured in a way where where international trade uh serves us. But as we move the tariffs are doing the

[38:09] opposite of that. So they're putting us in a in a very difficult position where we can't afford to import the things that we don't produce here, which is an awful lot, you know, because we're not we're not producing these things. We're not manufacturing them. And will this stimulate manufacturing in the United States as as the administration says it will? I don't know. It might, but it's really hard to believe that that most Americans while we're closing out the the the immigrants uh that that mo most

[38:42] Americans really want to work in heavy industry. Uh you know, how many how many friends did you have at college that that wanted to go and shovel coal? Uh so it's hard for me to see how that's going to work. So I think being a service economy and and a a technological economy, one that's one that can sell us technology around the world could really serve our purposes. But it makes it very difficult to do that if you've got the kind of economic system that's that's being globalized

[39:14] today where it's going to become increasingly expensive for us to buy things that we absolutely need from other countries and to produce them here at home. I just I I don't know how that could it become. Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Unless robotics come in to take place that the place of that, but >> which would make it worse even. >> It could make it worse. Yes. >> Yeah. >> John Perkins, thank you so much for being with us. John Perkins is the author of several books, but most famously, Confessions of an Economic

[39:45] Hitman. Don't miss it. It's been out for a long time and it's still in print. Yes. >> Yeah. There's a third ed So, it's a trilogy. So there's a third edition which focuses on the econ on China's economic hitman strategy. >> Fantastic. >> And that's in audio and and print or whatever you want. And John, I would just like to end by by saying to your audience, this has been we've talked about a lot of negative things, but I think we should all feel blessed to be alive at this time because we are at a cusp in human evolution. You know, we

[40:17] are at a time when we are really going to define what this world looks like for our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren. It's a huge opportunity and the fact we're exposing the bad sides of what we does is it's important. It's important to be self-critical, but it's also important to look to the future and see that we can turn this around. I think you know everybody who's listening to to your program and who's alive now uh should feel blessed to be alive at this time and to be able to participate in this. I do. I feel very

[40:47] blessed to have this opportunity. >> I agree with you. I do as well. Thanks again for being with us. >> My pleasure, John. Thanks for all you do. >> Thank you.
