Title: The Scandal the CIA Never Wants to Talk About Again
Show: Covert Operations Insight
Date: 2026-05-12
URL: https://youtu.be/K8NBiggPaTY
Duration: 40:00

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[00:04] He answered, "It's a real shame, but it's not uncommon is the point I wanted to make. It's not uncommon. So, I hope for the best." Yeah. It's the only advice I mean, I am not somebody to give advice, but it's the only advice I can give based on my own experience is just keep your head up. >> that it worked out for you. It doesn't work out for everybody, for sure. And that was you want to talk about a humbling experience that makes you question who you are as a human being. Mhm. Yeah, people think Buds is hard. I'm like, "So, here's what you want to do. You want to be tougher than a seal? Go through a contentious divorce." >> Right. Seriously. [laughter]

[00:35] Oh my god. Like, stop researching these selection courses to go through. Just get a divorce. It's way harder. Not actual advice that I'm giving to anybody. This is completely sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek, but God, it will destroy you. It's truly the hardest thing I've ever done, though. Oh my god, me too. Yeah. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I would agree with that. I would agree with that. It's uh a man There's not a the hard drive long enough or big enough to encapsulate my thoughts on that process, but And let me tell you another thing, Andy,

[01:06] is you know, when you go some through something like this, you really get to see who your friends are. Yes. Including people that you share blood with, you know? Including people that you may be married to or otherwise, you know, engaged to in some way. I had I had one cousin I have one cousin. He's um he's a good 10 years older than I am. And when I was a little kid, I always looked up to him. He was like, you know, the the big kid, good-looking, Navy pilot.

[01:37] And um when I got arrested, uh he called me and he said, "Listen, I got to cut you off." I was like, "What? What are you talking about?" He said, "You brought shame to our family." And I said, "You think I didn't read about you in the Washington Post that you were the mayor of Alexandria, Virginia's coke dealer. You think I didn't know that you and your guys are standing on the beach in Florida waiting for the Colombians to drop the bales of of of weed out of the

[02:08] plane? I know all about you. And I brought shame to our family? I said, "Fuck you." And I've cut him off. Well, now he's like sending me Facebook friend request. Hey, cuz, you're really famous now. Yeah, [ __ ] you. I haven't forgotten about 2012. Yeah. >> [ __ ] I have shifted years ago. Family actually to me is nothing to do with DNA. It's how somebody treats you. >> You got that right. Plus, if you go deep enough, if people

[02:38] are like, "Oh, our family's perfect." I'm like, "Tell me about your grandparents." Yeah, exactly. >> in every family, they're like, "Ooh, we don't really talk about Uncle Bob that much cuz he's [ __ ] crazy." And like, we all got crazy. I had an uncle like that. My grandmother's brother. I remember meeting him. I must have been like 12 the first time I met him. And I was like, "How come I never heard of Uncle Bill?" Like I said this to my mother. How come we How come I never heard of Uncle Bill? How is he my uncle? Oh, he's your grandmother's brother. How come I've never met him? He lives here in the same

[03:08] town. How come I never met him? And she said, "When you get a little older, I'll explain it to you." Well, I'm like 15. And she finally explains to me, he he was one of the American soldiers who liberated Dachau concentration camp at the end of the Second World War. And it made him nuts. Right? >> it could have been. Yeah, seriously. So, he came back with what today we know as PTSD. Back then they called it shell shock and all different kinds of things. In 1953, he had been home for 8 years.

[03:39] He somehow got it into his head that Richard Nixon, who had just been uh elected vice president, promised him a job at the post office in Steubenville Ohio. Sounds reasonable. Yeah. So he puts on his suit Monday morning, he goes to the post office, he's here for his job. >> [laughter] >> It's very sad. I mean, I laugh, but it's sad. I'm laughing with him, not at him. Sort of. >> [laughter] >> And they're like, "Who are you?" He said, "I'm I'm Bill. I'm here for my

[04:09] job." They're like, "We don't know what you're talking about." And he said, "That damn Nixon, I'm going to get him." 6 months later, Nixon comes to Steubenville to give a speech. Complete serendipity. And Uncle Bill tries to get into the civic center with a.45. No. >> And they get him. And my mom said, "I'll never forget these words." She said, "There, but for the grace of God, our name could have been Oswald." And then, how did Uncle Bill die? He got

[04:40] hit by a train. And I said to my mom, I was in college at the time. It was on the front page of the paper. I was like, "How do you not hear a train coming?" And she's like, "You know, this is one of those things that's better just left un- un- unresolved." Yeah, trains are really deadly, but also if you don't go on the tracks, you have a real good chance to survive. >> stay off the tracks, especially when those arms come down and the red lights are flashing. You might want to stay off the tracks.

[05:10] >> Indeed. Have you heard the latest narrative around the ex-CIA? I don't know what they call officers, agents. Um this is a new one I heard. You guys, at first, the CIA was like, "Oh, no. They're telling all the secrets." But now, people think, some people think that the CIA is actually trying to help you get on shows because Oh, we're friends again, are we? you can sow misinformation. So now, you're not a

[05:40] whistleblower anymore, now you're a knowing and willing mouthpiece of the agency. >> Wow, and they came up with that all by themselves? >> Somebody did on internet. Luis de Montalvo's name was in there as well and some couple other people I didn't recognize their names as much. But that's an interesting shift in thought process. I'll tell you there is literally nothing that I hate more than when people say once CIA always CIA. Okay, I'm >> It's very movie based. >> Yeah, I'm going to call Ed Snowden and the sons of Philip Agee and Ray McGovern

[06:13] and tell them that you think because of your incredible [ __ ] intellect that they are still in the CIA and I'm in the CIA. That was that prison sentence that was cover. They that was that was so you could establish cover. It's like that is just great. >> And then go on a podcast circuit so you can just be the mouthpiece for the agency. >> Right. Do you think the agency gives a [ __ ] No, not anymore. Do you think that they have people who pay attention or Sean Ryan posted a picture that he got

[06:43] they he got an advertising request for the agency. They wanted >> kidding me? >> I swear it was on his social media. It was an ad by request from the agency. I'm like, you should definitely take that money. Yeah. And do the shittiest read. >> Yeah, terrible. >> [laughter] >> I'll tell you just in the last eight weeks I mean on my own podcast I've been doing a lot of you know, do you have gold in your IRA? Go to johnlovesgold.com or um running low on Ivermectin all family pharmacy {slash} John you get 10% off.

[07:16] >> man. And what are you going to do? So The lights don't pay for themselves. >> Exactly. Yeah. So eight weeks ago when things started going nuts for me, all of a sudden I'm getting calls from you know, Tom Ford eyeglasses and you know, this company and that company and a vineyard in Napa. It's very cool. There was one I turned down out of hand. It was for a generic maker of Viagra. Mhm. Okay, no big deal. People take Viagra. I don't, but maybe some people do.

[07:46] But they wanted me to do this commercial with an OnlyFans model. And they wanted me to say >> They wanted me to say "Being with her is not torture." And I said Hold on, how much were they offering? >> [laughter] >> I don't actually say I'm joking. I said I said, "Am I a clown for you? That's what you think this all boils down to. I'm here for your amusement." Yeah. To them it was a joke. Yeah, it's all a big joke. >> stand that you took to them. >> Yeah.

[08:16] For clarity, I did do some funny ads for Blue Chew dick pills because uh they gave me full creative license. So I did like a 13-minute ad read one time. I wove it into a story. >> 13-minute ad read every It was like the end of it was. It was like, "Oh, and then an Amazon guy rang the doorbell. It's like, 'Ding dong.'" I'm like, "If your dong isn't being the ding that you want it to be was like >> [laughter] >> That's awesome. >> in real life. It was the opening of it. I just completely lost myself in the story and I just left it in there. That's a gift. That's [laughter] a gift. I will say this cashmere sweater is by Quince.

[08:48] Yeah. And Quince is one of my sponsors on John Kiriakou's Dead Drop, which you can find on Apple Podcasts. I'm proud to say I am in the top 1/10 of 1% of all of the 2 million podcasts on Apple Podcasts. That's amazing. It's fantastic. I don't know how it happened. Um in fact >> You kept getting your message out there and you kept being yourself. Thank you for I mean honestly, that's the answer to it. So Quince reached out to me and said, you know, we we want to give you $150 to buy whatever you want on the

[09:18] Quince webpage and then just be honest and just talk for 60 seconds about about what what you think about the product. So I go online. I didn't have this color of olive green. This is the nicest cashmere anything that I've ever owned. Sometimes cashmere is very thin. There's not much to it cuz it's so soft. This is substantial. It's thick and it's the softest thing I've ever owned. I wear it all the time and now I've gone back to

[09:50] the Quince website with my own money and spend another thousand bucks just because I can't believe how high quality these these clothes are. >> Plus, when you think cashmere, you think CIA officer. Well, I'll tell you what. A lot of You need to have some other little patches. >> patches. >> [laughter] >> That's only if you're an analyst. A lot of cashmere around the [snorts] world comes from Pakistan. And so, when I was in Pakistan, I'm getting, you know, emails from everybody in my family, like, "Can you get me a cashmere

[10:21] sweater? Can you get me a cashmere scarf?" So, I come home with a suitcase full of just cashmere to give away to people. Well, I can't go to Pakistan and buy cashmere. I got to pay, you know, US prices. I'm happy to pay it if it's this kind of quality. >> Yeah. When brands reach out to me like that, what I always do is I never take their 150 or whatever it is. If it's a brand that I'm interested in, I'll make my initial purchase with my card. Just cuz I want to be clean. And then I can actually give them legit feedback. And later on, if they want to enter into an

[10:52] advertising relationship, I'll take your money. >> That is a very good idea. >> It's like, I'll take your money, but I I'm going to enter into this like, let me let me be a paying customer first. Let me get that experience. Dude, how's the last 8 weeks been when it just like Did you just wake up one morning and you're like, I I somehow I'm sitting on a rocket ship? >> Quite literally. I happened to be in Dubai and and my niece called me from New Hampshire and she says, "Uncle John, you're blowing up on TikTok." I said, "Why?" And she said, "I don't know."

[11:23] And then, one day later, I get a call from a major global talent agency and the guy says, tell me you're not represented. And I said, I'm not represented, but I don't understand why this is happening. And then a couple [clears throat] days after that, I get a call from a reporter at Wired Magazine and she wants to interview me about my new new found Tik Tok fame. I said, how did this start? I don't really

[11:54] understand why it's happening. >> upstream and actually figure out that origin as well, too. She figured it out. It was Diary of a CEO. Which is funny because well, first off, they could make his facial expressions to some of your answers are memes in and of themselves. It's like Steven, pick it pick the job just a little bit. [laughter] He was so much fun. First of all, he is he's so incredibly bright and had such insightful questions. It wasn't just John telling stories. He had

[12:26] he he posed questions that I had never been asked to answer before. It was much more philosophical than a normal, you know, John telling stories kind of podcast. Um, but there was a kid, there's a sophomore at the University of Texas who took that interview and chopped it up into shorts so that each short was a story. He gave me an Alvin and the Chipmunks voice and then >> [laughter] >> the punchline would be in this ogre's

[12:57] voice, you know, and then I killed the janitor, that kind of thing. And then laser beams are shooting out of my eyes. And you know, for a second, I thought, should I be offended offended that they're like they're turning this into something so lighthearted? I was talking about serious issues here, torture. This whole thing about hummus this was about a torture technique. And then I thought, no, I've got a sense of humor, too. I'm going with it. >> It'll lead more people to your actual message anyway. >> And that's exactly what has happened. Yeah. then I I was approached literally

[13:29] the next day by Cameo. Um it's an app where, you know, you can commission D-list celebrities like me uh to say happy birthday or, you know, I have endorsed more kids for 11th grade class president than you can shake a stick at. Do you have Do you end everyone with remember the agency is always watching? Sometimes I just go >> [laughter] >> If they only knew the truth. But I got to say, it has been so much fun. It has opened up doors for me that

[14:01] I never imagined would ever open. And I, you know, I like to write books. I my ninth book is coming out in uh in uh June. And How do you enjoy the I just had a book come out April 14th. >> Congratulations. It's hard work. >> I was going to say, how did you possibly enjoy that process enough to do it nine times? >> what it is? I stopped writing for other people and started writing for myself. My first >> of sense. My first seven books were about the CIA and a whole bunch of them

[14:32] were commissioned. I wrote the first two The first two was The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror. Did really well, made number five on the New York Times Bestsellers list. The second one was Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. And that one two literary awards. I wrote it in longhand on on legal pads at prison. And at the end of each day of writing, because the guards would tear them up and throw them in my face, I would mail them back to my attorney and mark them legal mail so they couldn't intercept them.

[15:03] Um The agency was definitely reading them before you got 100% [laughter] 100% It would look like a clean envelope by the time it got to your attorney, but there was going to be some eyes on those Well, you know, a couple of people A couple of people wrote back to me and said, "Hey, your last letter was discreetly slit on the side of the envelope." So, I went down to the lieutenant's office one guy one day and I said, "You guys, you act like you're [ __ ] geniuses, and you're not. You're dopes." I said, "Listen, if you want to read what I have to say, you don't have to slit the side of the envelope open, and then tape it up like nobody's going to notice that. What you do is you

[15:34] unfold a paperclip, you put it in the top of the envelope so that it hooks the paper, and then you just turn the paper paperclip so that it it's a nice tight roll, and then you pull it out. Then you can read it, and then you roll it back up and put it back in the envelope." I said, "Seriously, I have to explain it to you?" Yeah. These These are rookie techniques. You guys are trash. >> Rookie. Day one [ __ ] >> But, you know what? That reminds me of something I wanted to tell you. >> [laughter] >> Something I wanted to tell you. Saturday. I'm driving. It's early in the morning.

[16:05] I'm driving to George Washington University. It was a day of TED Talks. And I love TED Talks. I did one there years ago. It was so much fun. So, I'm going to the TED Talk. My phone rings, and it's kind of early. It's like 8:00 or just before 9:00. And it's a It's a number I didn't recognize. So, I answer it. And the guy says, um He gives me his name, and he is a He's the head of a Okay, I'll just say it. So, he's the He's the director of

[16:35] the Bureau of Prisons. And I said, "Oh." I said, "To what do I owe the pleasure of a call from the director of the Bureau of Prisons?" He says, "You have been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for 10 years." And I go, "Correction, I've been talking [ __ ] about the Bureau of Prisons for 13 years." >> get your numbers straight. >> buddy. >> Yeah. And he says, "Thus, the reason for my call." He said, "When you talk [ __ ] you always follow it up with a proposed solution."

[17:05] And I said, "Yeah." I said, "You're corrupt, and your people are stupid, and your entire uh bureau is broken." And he says, "The president has mandated that I completely uh recreate the Bureau of Prisons. I want to reorganize it. I want to revamp it. And I want to know if you would be willing to be a uh a member of an advisory committee." I think we call that coming full circle. I think so, too. I jumped

[17:37] at it. I said, "Absolutely yes. When do you want to see me?" He says, "Wednesday." I said, "Done. I'll be there." And then he says, "Can you recommend somebody who would be really good?" And I said, "Absolutely yes." I said, "He's got an Italian last name that is going to be easily recognizable. But he did 17 years and he shouldn't have done 17 days. And how he's been able to maintain his humanity, I have no idea. I said, "He'll He'll set you straight." Yeah. >> [snorts and sighs] >> Man. What do you want to do

[18:09] with the notoriety as it builds? Like what what are you looking at in your runway in front of you? What do you want to do with the attention? Having a platform is an amazing thing. >> It's amazing. I can't believe it. Yeah. Thanks for that question. Um a couple of things. Number one, I've been talking about these same issues since 2007. Yeah. They're really, really important to me. Human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, transparency in government. This stuff is really >> I think so, too.

[18:40] So, number one, I want to keep talking to to increasingly large audiences. Um I really love writing. I I love it. And I love that people enjoy my books. I I love that people enjoy hearing the stories. The stories are all true, which is why they've gained traction, I think. So, I want to continue writing for bigger and bigger audiences. Since 2007, I've had a hobby where I write television pilots. It's fun. And

[19:13] I've been blessed since 2007 to have sold eight of them in Hollywood. [clears throat] Yeah. >> And so now I've got I've got meetings scheduled over the next two or three weeks with household names. Well, now that you have representation. >> And now I have representation. [laughter] I mean, these are like multiple Oscar winners. Oh, that's amazing. >> Reaching out exchanging ideas. I'm all in. I love it. Uh and you know,

[19:44] I'm not ashamed to finally, for the first time in my life, make a couple of bucks. I I I'm tired of being poor. I'm tired of renting. It's It's time to It's time to ramp up my my level of existence. I don't think anybody out there is not involved in that struggle, too. Some of them talk about it a little bit more than others, but yeah, everybody is trying to make as much as they can. Mhm. In a world that seems where the scarcity model is uh approaching for everyone. Yes.

[20:15] Yeah. I'm tired of it. Yeah, it's uh ooh, man. People think you know, let's just say don't join the military. I mean, financial stability, yes, for the 1st and the 15th, like your check is going to come even when the government shuts down. >> Yeah. Yeah, but that check may not be as big as you want it to be. >> Exactly. And you know, these [ __ ] Obama people, they confiscated my pension in 2012. So, I I've got nothing. I have literally nothing. Yeah. And so, I've got to make that up now. I think you're on a trajectory, though, where you might look back at the number of that pension

[20:45] >> Yeah. and even if they offered it to you Yeah, maybe it's better that I don't take it. >> If you're in a If you're in a place where it was offered to you I think the more powerful move is to say, "Fuck you." >> Mhm. And your measly $3,000 a month. You get I mean it's one of the misconceptions or the things that I maybe not a misconception but people don't realize especially coming out of the world that I was in in the military, this is all

[21:17] I'm going to do, this is all that I can do. And that's a very self-limiting >> Oh, yes. Oh, you're exactly right. >> you get out and if you can break yourself from that ideology, the opportunities that present themselves to you, you would of all the things I do now, literally, people don't believe me. If if you had given me an unlimited amount of time in the years before I exited the military, not a single thing that I do now, the coffee shop, what? I didn't even drink coffee till I was 27 years old. >> That was seriously the best mocha I've ever had in my life. When I took the first sip, I was like, "Oh my god. This

[21:49] is fantastic." >> We do a sprinkle of meth in there just to get you coming back for the second one. >> [laughter and gasps] >> No, it wouldn't have been on there. Hosting a podcast, the world I came from, just like the world you came from, they'd be like, "I'm sorry, I'm going to willingly put myself on camera and put my thoughts out on the internet to be destroyed by Nope. You are exactly like I was where at the agency, they part of the culture is that they convince you that your skills are so specific that you can't do anything else. For us, you

[22:19] move from the agency into a defense contractor. For you, you move into, you know, Blackwater or some kind of contracting. And that's just simply not true. You and I, when we were walking over here, I mentioned that first of all, God bless Cameo. Seriously, I I actually This is how nuts it is. For the last 8 weeks, I have set my alarm every morning for 4:00 a.m. >> [laughter] >> Take it easy, Jocko. And I I I answer Cameos from 4:00 to 7:00 and then starting at 7:00, I do my normal day because otherwise I can't catch up.

[22:49] >> Yeah. And I'm afraid of, you know, this all just going away one day overnight, like flipping a switch, like somebody flipped a switch to start it in the first place. So, my sister and I bought a laundromat. And uh now I won't be completely, uh you know, poor. Even if it does go This is what I have realized in my life through the technical term would be excessive amount of failures that I have stumbled my way through. [laughter] Voluminous, if you will. You figure out a way. Yeah. It I I have

[23:20] I'm finally at a place in my life where I worry less about the opportunities that are going to come because I know that they will and I find that I'm more receptive to them by just kind of letting go of the reins a little bit and playing the field as it presents itself to me instead of trying to mold the chessboard into the You're so right. I've been wrong every time I've tried to force the world into the chess moves that I think are going to work. >> Yeah, I mean, it took me 48 years to figure this out. And for clarity, I haven't figured it out completely. Maybe I'm just learning a little bit more from my mistakes, but dude, you're going to

[23:52] figure it out. Even if it turns out tomorrow you're still going to figure it out cuz you've put the volume of work in and that I think is That's the difference between people who are truly suc- There are, of course, black swan events where somebody will become instantaneously famous for something. Good luck scaling that across any generational level. >> Look Look at this a Huka Tua girl, Right? Yeah, that didn't go too great for her. No. She was a giant for like 2 weeks and then gone. I don't know why anybody would take

[24:22] advice from her financially. Like, the meme coin thing, you didn't You really thought that woman was going to be like a solid 401k investment strategy? >> where you want to put your hard-earned dollars. Yeah. I mean, life is self-critiquing in many ways. It's It's like nunchucks. If you're not ready for them, you're going to break your nose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. [laughter] You're going to It's You're going to figure it out, man. The more work you have put in, it's the overnight 10-year success. You're going to start getting people now like, "Oh, must be nice, John. Must be nice." And it's like First off, A, if you really want to piss them

[24:52] off, say it's actually nicer than you think it could be. >> [laughter] >> And then it'd be It just It that twists them off a little bit. Like you actually don't even have the imagination to understand how nice it is, but they're never going to see the hard work. They're just going to see that you have arrived at a place where they want to be and they want to knock it down a little bit. Several friends of mine have told me that that they've never met anybody who works as hard as I do. And It's actually the key to success. It is? The hack culture that we live in, you can hack a lot of things, but you can't

[25:23] hack hard work. You can't? And I I don't sleep very much. I don't really have any hobbies. All I do is work. Mhm. Uh in in it this started off during COVID. Well, I mean, I've always worked hard, but especially during COVID, I had a lot of trouble sleeping. And I thought, well, I can lay here in bed and stare at the ceiling, or I can go downstairs and write an op-ed and make $400. And so I started with the op-eds. And then oh, I started saying you most of my

[25:53] books, my first seven books were about the CIA or something having to do with the CIA. And then during COVID, um I thought, now, you know what? I've ever since I was a little boy, I've loved cemeteries, exploring cemeteries. I love the architecture, I love the symbolism of the stones or what's on the stones, but I especially love the fact that literally everybody has a story. So, I'm not talking about the most famous people, I'm talking about interesting people. Um I was 9 years old, I told my mom one day, we lived about a mile from the

[26:24] cemetery, and I said, I'm going to go down to the cemetery and look for salamanders. So, I took a an empty shoe box, I went down to the cemetery, I found a salamander under a rock, I put him in the box with some grass. And when I got home, she said, "Did you find any salamanders?" And I said, "Yeah, I found one under a rock. It was next to a gravestone that had a badge on it." And she said, "What kind of badge?" And I said, "It said Congressional Medal of Honor." And she said, "Oh, that's a hero. We should go to the library and see what he did. So, we went to the library and we

[26:55] we were regulars at the library anyway. But, we found that he was a farmer from my hometown and in the battle of uh Oh, shoot. Battle of the Wilderness, was it? Battle of Petersburg. He captured the Confederate battle flag. Damn. And got the Congressional Medal of Honor, came back home, farmed until uh 1878 and died. And she said to me, I'll never forget it. She said, "You see, everybody has a story.

[27:27] You don't have to be famous to have a story." So, I've been to 73 countries and probably 70 of those countries I've been to a cemetery. And I decided to write a cemetery book about the cemeteries of Washington D.C. So, I go online during COVID, I'm looking and it's there were like two dozen books about Arlington National Cemetery. And I learned that nobody had ever written a book about the cemeteries of Washington D.C. Hm. But, there are fascinating people buried in Washington.

[27:59] Yeah. So, I wrote the first book. And it comes out in June. And then I followed it up The funny thing is I sent it to my publisher. It's uh Simon & Schuster. And I said, "Look, I know you guys don't normally publish books like this, but this was important to me. Could you take a look at it?" And I told him what it was, the editor. And he's like, "Yeah, we don't really do books like this, but all right. I'll I'll pass it around." He calls me 2 weeks later and he says, "This is the best book you've ever written." And they want to commission four more. I said, "Oh, what do they want?"

[28:31] So, I finished It's in editing now. Um Whispers in the Dirt, The Mafia Graves of New York City. Oh, damn. I think that's going to be a good one. And they want one on America's most notorious serial killers, one on the historic cemeteries of Chicago, and one on the country western graves of Nashville. That's a real broad spectrum there. Mhm. I like the serial killers one. I think so, too. My wife is slightly disturbed by the number of documentaries that I'll watch about serial killers. I'm addicted.

[29:01] >> And she's like, "What is it that you" >> She's like, "What is it that you get out of these?" I'm like, "I'm not sure, but I really can't turn it off." Buddy, there was a serial killer in my housing unit uh when I was in prison. We called him Truck. He was a long-distance truck driver. Oh. And in the days before DNA testing, he would pick up prostitutes at truck stops and have sex with them and then strangle them, drive another hour, and then just throw their bodies out of the out of the truck. >> So, he strangled a 16-year-old prostitute

[29:31] and she survived. And she identified him and the truck, and he was arrested. He got 40 years. For reasons that will never be clear to me, he constantly sought my approval. He started off like, "So, you were CIA?" And I said, "Yeah." He goes, "I was CIA, too. I was I used a shrimp boat to smuggle" >> [laughter] >> A shrimp He specifically said a shrimp boat to smuggle weapons to the Angolan rebels. I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here. A shrimp boat." >> Gump. Yeah, exactly.

[30:03] >> [laughter] >> A shrimp boat. I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here." And that just made him like seek my approval more. He had these rotten nubs for teeth. >> So, [snorts] he would say stuff like, "Hey John, uh I know that you like the Steelers and the Steelers are are on TV this Sunday. I saved you a seat in the in the TV room." I'm like, "Okay, thanks, Truck." "Hey John, I I know you like classic rock. There's a new classic rock station, 1600 AM." I'm like, "Thanks, Truck."

[30:33] So, there was this other guy at the same time we called Cat in the Hat cuz he had this oddly elongated head. It was like a birth defect. This crazy like you could project a film on his on his forehead, you know? >> And um I had an empty bunk in my cell and you have to get everybody's agreement to move into somebody's cell. And we had a rule in my cell, no pedophiles. Pedophiles are banned. So, I said to him, he wanted to move into the bunk. I said, "You a pedophile?" And he said, "No, I'm not a pedophile." I said, "What's your What's

[31:04] your crime?" And he says, "Murder for hire." I said, "I don't think I like that any more than I like the pedophiles." I said, "What were the circumstances of that crime?" And he said, "I owed the mob 100 grand. I couldn't pay it, so I took out a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitman to kill him. And I got caught." And I said, "Let me guess, you ratted out the hitman." He goes, "Well, it was either life [laughter] in prison or 20 years." I said, "No pedophiles, no rats."

[31:35] So, we wouldn't let him in. Well, he was mad. One day, I hear my name on the on the PA. "Kyriacou, lieutenant's office." Usually that means you're going to solitary. They didn't have the balls to send me to solitary. So, it turned out Jake Tapper wanted to interview me and he had come up to the prison and I had to sign a waiver and sit for the interview. So, I'm sitting next to Truck later that afternoon in the TV room. I'm 2 ft away

[32:06] from Cat in the Hat. He does not see me sitting immediately directly behind him. He's standing at the computer. There's an internal email system. I'm sitting there. Truck is here, I'm here, Cat in the Hat's here. And he says, Cat in the Hat says to the guy next to him, "Did you hear that [ __ ] Kyriacou? He got caught called down to lieutenant's office." He goes, "That guy's a [ __ ] rat. He went down there to rat us all out." And I just sat there. Listen, if you call somebody a rat, that's a big deal. Oh, blood's going to be spilled. >> Yeah. I I

[32:37] react in any way and Truck says, "That [ __ ] guy just called you a rat." And I go, "An hour ago I heard him call you a pedophile." Of course he didn't. I just made it up. Without saying a single word, Truck got up and beat this guy almost to death. And this is why, John, you were an excellent case officer. >> [laughter] >> They had to land a helicopter in the yard to life-flight him to Pittsburgh.

[33:09] Truck got 5 years added to his sentence. Cat in the Hat was in intensive care for like 6 weeks. He finally comes back to the prison. He's all [ __ ] up like you know. >> Yeah. And somebody had told him what had happened. So, he comes up to me like this and he goes, "I I just wanted to say I'm sorry that I called you a rat. I should have never said that. I'll never do it again." And I go, "Hey, hey." I said, "Look at me." I said, "So help me God, if I ever hear my name cross your lips

[33:39] ever again, you're dead and you're never going to see it coming." And nobody messed with me. I think we call those soft skills. >> [laughter] >> I get called down to the lieutenant's office cuz I just continued watching the Steelers game like this as as Truck is beating him to death. >> Yeah. So, I get called down. They were like, "What the [ __ ] were you doing at that fight?" I go, "What fight?" >> Checking the score. "The fight! You were sitting right next

[34:10] TO THESE GUYS. THE GUY'S BEATING the other guy to death." I said, "I'm watching the Steelers game. What are you talking about?" "Oh, you're going to tell us that what we saw on four different cameras didn't happen." I go, "Yeah, maybe you were the ones fighting. Do you ever think of that?" Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. >> [laughter] >> He's like, "GET THE [ __ ] GET of my office." So, You ever miss your old job? Very much. Yeah, I can tell. >> [laughter] >> So, that's the thing though. Millions of dollars spent on people, you can't

[34:41] always put it all down. That stuff will be with you for the rest of your life. And again, they were looking for a particular type of person that they can hone and sharpen those skills in. I'll tell you man, the the Italians adopted me literally the day I arrived. And I mean Italians named Gambino, Lucchese, Genovese. These are serious guys. I I love them all. I saw two of them last weekend. We have dinner together. They're awesome. And I said to one of them, I said, "This [ __ ] guy, Cat in the Hat, I said, I'm taking this guy down." And and a very senior guy in the Bonanno

[35:12] family, he said, "Are you crazy?" He said, "They're going to add years on to your sentence. You're going to end up doing all of them solitary." And I said, "I would never be so crude as [laughter] to do it with my own hands. Who do you think I am? Do you not know where I come from? Oh my god. You think I don't think about this stuff in advance? Yeah. There's a difference between brute force That's right. >> and non-linear problem-solving. In my second book, Doing Time Like a Spy, I I start

[35:43] off with these 20 life lessons that I learned at the CIA. And one of them is let others do your dirty work. I would never do it myself. Yeah. Why would you? Why take the risk? It's a good question. There There was one uh Good. I got to get you to the airport Oh, yeah. I got to get And a little bit further. We got time. One of the Italian guys, he became my best friend and is still one of my best friends in the world. It's funny, you know, you don't go to prison to make friends. But I made a friend in prison that that he's like a brother, a brother to

[36:14] me. And um we were talking about, you know, having others do the dirty work. And he said, he said, "That's some [ __ ] up kind of sociopath stuff right there. And I said, "Yeah, okay. Yes, you're right. But the thing is, if you want to stay safe, and you don't want to stay safe in solitary, you have to have others do your dirty work."

[36:45] And uh it took him a little while, but he understood. He mentioned one of the guards. He said to one of these guards, this was the the only guard that was like universally reviled. He was the only guard that wore a stab vest, because he was genuinely afraid somebody was going to stab him. >> Mhm. And he and my buddy said, uh "Where are you going to be?" Uh they would do these 6-month rotations in different housing units. "Oh, I'm going to be in Central 1." He said, "Oh, my buddy John's in Central 1." And um the guard says, "The CIA guy, John?" And

[37:16] he said, "Yeah." And the guard says, "I never [ __ ] with that guy." And my friend says, "Yeah? Why not?" And he said, "That's all I need. I work 8 hours a day, I go out to my car, and CNN standing out there. No, thank [laughter] you." I said, "Exactly." Yeah, it's a deep pool. Uh last question for you. There are people out there who view your old job as their life's calling. Mhm.

[37:47] What would you say to a young person who wants to have an impact in the intelligence community, given the landscape of where I think we both agree it is at right now? Mhm. What would you tell them? I would give them the same advice that my first deputy office director gave me. He said, "You are going to see things during the course of your career that that's going to make your hair stand up. Things that you cannot abide. But understand that around year 10 of your career, you're going to realize

[38:19] that you're in a position of authority all of a sudden. You're a branch chief, a deputy group chief. If your career really takes off, you're going to be a group chief. And you can change those things. He said, "There's always going to be a CIA. There's nothing that anybody can do to make it so that there isn't a CIA anymore. And if you want to change it, you have to change it from the inside." He said, "Around year 10, you can change it from the inside." It's a bottoms-up approach as well. Mhm. I think that's the way. I think so, too.

[38:50] God, that's a tough journey, though. And there are a lot of very bad people in positions of authority right now. Yeah. I think there is more out there that are good, though. That I agree with. Yes, and that's why I still have hope. There are good people out there. You know, it's funny, too. There are a lot of people that just want to go work their day and then go home, make dinner, and sit with their family. >> Yeah. They don't even realize

[39:22] that they're the kind of people that we need to affect those changes. Yeah. Sometimes an opportunity presents itself and you never saw it coming. Agreed. What do you want to leave people with? Final thoughts? You know, I've been the last eight or nine weeks, I've been able to connect with Gen Z. And so my message is to Gen Z, it is to tell the truth because the truth really does set you free. There are some very contentious issues that they're going to experience, confront in their lifetimes. Be on the

[39:54] right side of those issues. In the long run, it's all worth it. I couldn't agree more. Hell yeah, John. Thank you for making the trip out. >> So good to see you. This was fun. Thanks for the invitation. >> man. My pleasure.
