Title: CIA Spy Explains 'Vault 7'
Show: Julian Dorey Podcast
Date: 2025-11-19
URL: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ERXIM8oTMxM
Duration: 1:00:44

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[00:01] I said, 'Why hasn't Brennan been charged yet? I mean, they charged Comey with some silly crime that's probably going to get thrown out. Why haven't they charged Brennan? And he said, um, because they want to get that one right. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Yeah. They have an interesting perspective on Brennan. You know, most federal crimes have a 5-year statute of limitations. most um what we've heard Brennan would be

[00:33] charged with has either a 5-year or a one-year statute of limitations. I they're they're talking about contempt of Congress. Big deal. The federal sentencing guideline calls for no prison time, >> right? >> So, who cares if he if he was in contempt of Congress? I don't care. um lying to Congress. He probably has crossed the statute of limitations. They probably can't charge him. But what their idea is is that the Hunter Biden

[01:04] laptop memo, the Russia NIE, the Russia analysis was all part of an ongoing conspiracy to deny American voters their dulyeleed president. So, the statute of limitations keeps restarting itself every day so long as this this uh conspiracy continues. And honestly, I think they've got him on that. I That's the thing. I think they

[01:36] might too. And this is where this is where it gets weird for me because no man's above the law, right? And it should it should be. >> We sent a vice president of the United States to prison. >> Yeah, that was Spiro. Agno, right? They they got the Greek guy. >> Yeah, but he wasn't Orthodox, so it doesn't count. >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah. >> But like I look at that and I go, is the slippery slope of letting a man like John Brennan be above the law

[02:08] worse than the slippery slope, >> right, >> of the precedents that we are setting across the board right now? >> And it's almost like, and people at home don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear this either, especially when it comes to a guy like John Brennan. But it's almost like somebody here, we used this example for something else earlier, but someone here has to be the Martin Luther King and just be like, >> we we're bigger than this. >> We're not doing this because it's making, you know, we're othering each other in this country. I I

[02:40] >> see. And that's exactly why Joe Biden should have pardoned Donald Trump. So many people believed he that's what he was going to do. Just like Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for the for the betterment of the country. Yes. Bring the American people back together again. Joe Biden should have pardoned all of those Republicans. >> I agree. >> And he didn't. >> I agree. I agree with you really very much on this issue that at the end of the day.

[03:10] What's more important is the the strength of the country and the unity of the country. It was a mistake to charge Donald Trump with 34 felonies for not filling out a freaking form for the, you know, state business commission or whatever the heck it was. That was dumb. Uh, it was a mistake to charge him. I don't even remember what the crime was alleged in Georgia. What was that? Oh, he called the sec Georgia secretary of state and said, [laughter] "Find the votes." Okay. He was excitable that day.

[03:43] It was the election. That that's that's not a crime. That's just a guy having a bad day. [laughter] >> Um, Comey, I understand they hate Comey. Comey is an idiot, frankly, for being as smart as he is. He's really stupid at the same time. >> Yeah. like to take a picture of the shells 8647. What the [ __ ] are you thinking, you [ __ ] >> Brennan, however, is different in my mind. I believe Brennan was trying to enact a coup. I really believe it.

[04:17] I think there's evidence that, you know, even if even if you wanted to dress it up and call it like a shadow coup or something like that, however you want to say it, >> when you look at all the things that were disproven that were happening on his watch. >> Yeah. >> One plus one plus one plus one plus one. >> Seriously. And look at it this way, too. There were a lot of bad guys at the CIA at the time that I was there in those circles, right? I mean, we can say terrible things about George Tennant and John McLaclin and Mike Morurell and Jose

[04:48] Rodriguez and Rick Praau and a lot of people. We can say a lot. There were a lot of crimes that were committed in the name of national security. Brennan's different. Brennan plotted against an elected president of the United States and he tried to use this, you know, the intelligence community and this lawfare against him and we can't risk that happening again. That that is when you put it like that, it's it's about as sinister as it gets.

[05:19] >> Yeah. Now, now here's the thing, John. I think about this a lot. We've been the power in the world for a long time. We have always had people in different parts of power be it government, bureaucracy, corporate which you know one feeds the other. >> There's a lot of crossover >> elites etc. where there are some awful people and people who do corrupt things people who get away with it sometimes because the issue becomes bigger than the person and they're connected enough so we swipe it under sweep it under the

[05:50] rug. But I get this strange feeling that there is this deliberate movement now to paint everything that America has ever done >> as evil. It's all bad. Every single [ __ ] >> I hear that a lot. So, I say this to a guy who was legitimately [ __ ] over by the United States government and the worst types of people in it, who knows where evil happens and knows that we're

[06:22] not perfect and knows we've done evil [ __ ] around the world for sure. You know, do you have a problem with with that narrative? Oh my god, yes. You know, I I I go to bed at night watching Tik Tok videos. I'll watch a hundred of them before I finally fall asleep. And you know, they lead me to mostly First Amendment auditors who I just love. I I just love them. Uh and and um conservative um YouTubers who will go

[06:52] out on the street and say, you know, what's the best country in the world? And you know, do you believe the United States is the best country in the world? And they say, oh, you know, I would like to live in Denmark or >> this is the best country on earth. Period. I've been to 72 countries. I'm going to add another five more by the end of next year. This is the best country on earth. Of course, we have problems because we're human. But but the founding fathers gave us a system

[07:25] that is perfect for resolving those problems. Right? The three co-equal branches of government. It's a little a skew right now, but it's going to return to where uh where it should be. It always does. >> You think so? >> I do. It always has through history. Um and it it will again, >> but um >> what has to happen for it to return there? >> Congress needs to find where what happened to its ball sack?

[07:55] >> It vanished >> once upon a time. >> I remember Jimmy Carter complaining. I was a kid. I was in high school. Jimmy Carter complaining that uh he couldn't get anything done because Congress wouldn't do what he what he told him to do and the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and they were like, "We don't work for you. >> Co-equal branches of government." Well, we've forgotten that, right? >> And so [clears throat] the Democrats are in lock step with Joe Biden. The Republicans are in lock step with Donald

[08:25] Trump. That's not the way it's supposed to be. Yes, work together. But look look at the 80s under the Reagan uh presidency. Uh the Democrats controlled the House, the Republicans controlled the Senate for the first four years or six years of the either four or six, I can't remember anymore, of the uh Reagan presidency, but the speaker of the house was a Massachusetts liberal named Tip O'Neal. >> And what happened? The president would invite him over for breakfast and they would sit and hash things out because

[08:57] they were both gentlemen and that's how you got business done in Washington. >> Let's make a deal. >> Exactly. Everything is open to negotiation. Everything. So, let's negotiate. >> And you think we can get back to that? >> I do. I think we can get back to that. >> Mhm. >> Besides, you know, the broad general point, which is appreciated if Congress has to find their balls again. >> Yeah. They're all bums. >> Yeah. But so how do you flush out the attitudes that have formed on both sides

[09:27] within Congress and and Senate at this point where they don't want to do that? >> I think that we need to elect more independent thinkers. Listen, I made fun, for example, I made awful fun of Marjorie Taylor Green when she was first elected. You know, the Jewish space lasers and cheating on her husband. And >> I find myself agreeing with Marjorie Taylor Green like 80% of the time now. >> Wow. >> It's nuts. I haven't changed. I see Marjorie Taylor Green as having matured

[09:58] in her role as a member of Congress. >> Yeah. [clears throat] Like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. This isn't how Congress is supposed to work. >> What do you like about what she says? Um, I see her as something of a of a very out there civil libertarian >> in the in the mold of uh of um Tom Massie, Thomas Massie, let's say. She's not as smart as Thomas Massie, of

[10:28] course, but they take a lot of similar positions like uh Rand Paul is another example. Bernie Sanders on the on the Democratic side is another one, but I think we need more people like that. There's a guy who's been running in the Democratic primary against Nancy Pelosi for years. I met him in like 2016. I don't remember his name. It's an Indian name and I I just don't recall what it is. The guy's an attorney. He's very smart, very bright guy. He's an activist.

[11:00] We need for him to run against people like Nancy Pelosi. I I think my lucky star is that Nancy Pelissi is not running for re-election. Of course, she's so young at 82, right? >> That's the guy. That's the guy. I met him at the uh San Francisco Film Festival when we we stopped and chatted. I had never heard of him before. >> How do you say that name? I just butchered that. >> Chakraarti. >> Chakraarti. I've got a friend um he's an originally Indian naturalized American,

[11:32] Bert Thacker. Shout out to Bert Thacker. >> Shout out Bert. >> Bert um Bert's a two-time Jeopardy champion. Uh number one. Number two, he is a former Republican congressional candidate in Southern California, moved to Texas, got himself elected to the city council in the city he went to, and is already planning his congressional campaign. We need to have 435 people like Bert Thacker because then we would get stuff

[12:02] done in this country. Bert cares almost not at all about party affiliation. He happens to be a Republican, >> right? >> But he just wants to get stuff solved, >> get things done. I think a big difference today that's causing a huge problem which should be like the biggest benefit ever is the fact that all of us have a voice behind a keyboard >> online and we police each other for

[12:33] thought. Now where does that sound very familiar from? Online that then forces its way towards the ballot box and the people who get elected there who are from that same world and understand it or if they're not from that world understand that they have to live in it. So, for example, your Nancy Pelosi, you can't possibly make a deal with Donald Trump. That won't play well on Tik Tok. It won't No, you could. It won't play well on Instagram. It won't play well on Twitter. And you're going to be viewed as a traitor to your people for doing that. Whereas Nancy Pelosi could have

[13:04] tied one off, you know, [ __ ] 25 years ago if Donald Trump were president and, you know, come up with a deal at a [ __ ] K Street Steakhouse and [ __ ] could have actually happened, which is exactly how Washington used to work. Yes, you're exactly right. You knew that if you went to the Oval Room at 9:00 on on a Tuesday night, the entire Senate leadership was going to be there having stakes and trying to figure out what to do about the budget. right >> at the Trump hotel when it when there

[13:34] was a Trump hotel in Washington. I went with friends a couple of times, more than a couple of times, and we joked that like, my god, is there a single member of the Republican House leadership who's not at the bar right now? [laughter] Like literally every single one of them, but that's how you get stuff done. >> Yes. When I was in college, um it was quite common for members of Congress to share group houses up on Capitol Hill. You'd pack six, seven,

[14:05] eight guys in a in a house because it's expensive in Washington. You have to maintain a house in your district, right? And your family's probably in the district. You still have to have somewhere to live in Washington. So, and they they don't really make any money. Well, they do now. Two great stock pickers. >> 220. It's like a miracle. Like a miracle. >> They're incredible at it. the crystal ball. So, um, so it wasn't unusual to have, you know, three Dems and three Republicans in a house or four and four. They'd play poker on Fridays, they'd go to church

[14:36] together on Sundays, and then, you know, they would argue in committee, but they're all friends and they knew that at the end of the day, they could negotiate a deal. >> And that's just not the case anymore. >> Yeah. That's why that's where I'm having trouble seeing how that becomes the case again. >> Yeah. because of how people have just been so, you know, and I in this kind of job, I see it all the time. You know, how much people just jump to conclusions on the minute they hear an opinion they don't agree with, they're gone. >> Yeah. >> They're really not. But they say that.

[15:08] >> Oh, I get that all the time. Listen, I'm I'm going to say something that's going to cause me trouble, but I'm going to say it anyway. [sighs and gasps] >> I gave an interview to an Indian news outlet two weeks ago, and I didn't say anything that I haven't said a thousand times. for whatever reason and this is why as a matter of policy listen I'm serious no more interviews to any Indian or Pakistani news outlets ever again okay John's policy done because they just

[15:38] make [ __ ] up >> and put it in a banner headline with two exclamation points and say that the CIA this CIA officer finally reveals the truth behind you know like no I told you my information's 25 years old. Okay. So I said one thing. I said in a conventional conflict India would beat Pakistan because it has five times the people. Yeah.

[16:09] The death threats. I've lost count of how many death threats I received. And then the best of all like my my lawyer is like got to keep a low profile. Just be aware [laughter] aware of your surroundings. >> I know, right? >> John's like, "Fuck you." [laughter] >> So, I get a letter from the president of Imran Khan's political party, right? Whatever it's called, the Pakistan whatever party. >> You got a letter >> a letter in the mail. you and he says

[16:40] that they condemn in uh in the strongest possible terms what I said to the Indians and they demand an immediate apology to his excellency the former prime minister to the members of the party and to the people of Pakistan >> for giving an opinion. >> Yeah. So my lawyer is like just throw it away just [laughter] throw it away. So I didn't throw it away. I sent him an email and I said, >> "Oh my god, >> in regards to your demand for an

[17:11] apology, I wiped my ass with your demands for an [laughter] apology." And I hit send and that's how I left it and I haven't heard back from them. So my my my lawyer is like, "Well, that speaking offer at the uh Pakistani [laughter] military academy, yeah, you're not going to be doing that." And I said, "No, no, I'll never go back ever again." But they don't they don't treat me with with respect anyway. >> You could have just said, "Explain Bin Laden."

[17:41] >> Yeah. >> Exactly. >> I mean, yeah. Like it would appear mathematically India would >> Yeah. >> would body bag Pakistan. No, you know, no Pakistan. No disrespect. It's just, you know, >> and you know why they hate each other so much? Because they're exactly alike. That's why. It used to be one country, >> right? India, Pakistan and Bangladesh was one country called called the Indian subcontinent, right? And then in 1947,

[18:11] India and Pakistan had a brutal bloody war and they split off. >> So all the Muslims went west to Pakistan and all the Hindus went east to uh to India. But now there are more Muslims than there are you know pretty much anybody else in they have a higher birth rate in India. But anyway, and then by 1971, I think it was, Bangladesh is like, "Screw this. They're part of Pakistan." They were called East Pakistan. And they're like, "Pakistan's all the way over there. We disagree with

[18:43] everything. So, we're going to be independent, too." And they created Bangladesh. >> Okay. Well, India has five times more people than Pakistan does. And the Bangladeshies like the Indians, and the Afghans like the Indians and hate the Pakistanis. So if you're Pakistan and you're outmanned and surrounded by your enemies, you going to win that fight? >> Yeah. They don't seem to have like a lot of friends. >> No. >> Right. >> No. Cuz they write threatening letters and expect immediate action.

[19:14] >> I love that they wanted a retraction. >> Yeah. A retraction. >> Last time I was in your country, I land I ran the greatest targeting mission in modern history. Don't [ __ ] with me. >> That's right. And he wants a he he neglected to say in the letter that his prime minister is in prison right now. >> Oh, he's in prison. Why is he in prison? >> Oh, for all kinds of reasons. Treason and >> he's still prime minister. >> No, no, they deposed him. >> So, he's not running it from the prison cell. >> No. Well, he's trying. He's running the party from his prison cell. Got it. They got a new prime minister. >> Ah, it's so awkward. >> Yeah. And he wants an apology from me.

[19:45] Now I think you should apologize to all of the people of Pakistan for being a you know corrupt >> typical corrupt leader in Pakistan. They're all corrupt. Listen, one time I was with uh with a colleague, a more senior colleague. We went to see Benazir Bhau. We went to see Benazir Bhau. She was in exile in Dubai [snorts] and um her husband was this guy Zardari, I think his first name is Hussein, something like that. And uh

[20:16] so we're at the uh we're at her beachfront mansion, her $10 million beachfront mansion in Dubai. This is a woman who was making, you know, 60 grand a year as prime minister. >> Hey, listen. Good investor, >> right? So we hear a car pulling up outside and she said something off-handedly that has just been ingrained in my mind ever since. She says, [snorts] "So help me God. If he's pulling up in another Bentley, I'm going to lose my mind." [laughter]

[20:47] [clears throat] And my boss and I kind of look at each other like, "Corrupt a little bit?" >> Yeah. >> You make 60 grand a year. How many Bentleys do you have with your $10 million beachfront house in Dubai? And then she went back, became prime minister again, got shot in the head. Now he's the president of Pakistan. her husband, her corrupt husband. >> Funny how the world works. >> Yeah. >> You know, that is the thing. The patterns are the same everywhere in

[21:17] different different societies. Human nature. >> It's human nature. You get people that get into powerful positions that have connections to be able to do things that the average person can't. >> Whether it's legal or not, they do it. >> It's you're 100% it's it is human nature. And like now in the internet era, we can just see it more right in front. >> I think you're exactly right about that. Yeah, the the information is much more re readily available for us. It's just there almost instantaneously.

[21:48] How much in your career at CIA did you either see directly or get an inkling or a vibe of say elite forces that were not a part of CIA playing roles or having say or having some sort of influence over decisions that the agency was making. >> I didn't. >> Never. >> No. It was always the other way around. After 911, we were short on um special

[22:20] forces guys. You know, we we had this thing called the special activities division and then within the counterterrorism center, there was the special activities group. Um but we needed operators like not the ones like John that were going to, you know, whine and dine the guy and recruit him. Exactly. And so we just borrowed people from the special forces. So all of a sudden, I mean like in in the matter of a week or two after 911, >> we've got SEALs, we have Delta, we have

[22:52] Rangers, we have all these people, >> and they're all they're not what you might imagine. They're not they're not these buff, you know, [snorts] hemen that stepped out of a magazine. They had five days beard, a little bit of a gut. they could do some heavy drinking and then get up and run five miles, which I never understood. Um, but they they knew exactly what the mission was and by God, they were happy to get on a plane, jump out the back of it, and then do the mission and then figure out how to rescue them later.

[23:24] >> I've had a couple of those guys sitting here. >> Yeah, they're they're very, very tough guys. Yeah, >> they're built a little different. >> Yeah, they are. I've never understood how I've never understood how guys like that can negotiate the psychological weight of what comes with their jobs. It is a the fact that you haven't figured that out is not reassuring because I sit here and wonder

[23:55] the same thing sometimes. There is the only thing I can come up with is there's just a different gene. I think that's it. I've got two friends. One was a medic um on Seal Team 2. He's an older guy. He's about eight years older than I am. So, this is when the SEAL teams were first created out of what used to be called the underwater demolition teams. And I've got a buddy who's currently a SEAL. I won't say which team. He's the son-in-law of a very close friend of mine.

[24:29] He does struggle with these issues. My my older friend from Seal Team 2 sleeps like a baby every night. No problem. >> I think it's person to person. >> I think it is >> right. >> Yeah. >> But also they pick certain guys for certain teams or certain missions. >> That's right. >> Who maybe they've tested under scrutiny and stress. Not to say, by the way, that sometimes once the guys are done their career and come home, they don't bring it home with them. frequently do. >> They frequently do and it's it's a sad

[25:00] thing to see. >> It's sad, but when when they're in there, there's something about like reach go >> mission >> and that's it. >> All about the mission. >> Yeah. >> You know, glad they're on my side, though. >> Yeah, me too. >> Right. >> Yep. Got that right. >> So, they were just And I mean, I've talked with guys about this before. It was obviously like a [ __ ] show right after 9/11. All hands on deck. But >> basically a lot the way you're explaining it is a lot of these guys minus just some of the basic like on the ground forces we know from the paramilitary operation that happened

[25:31] right away in Afghanistan. But a lot of these guys were literally like hey you're in you're right in you're in >> done. They just showed up one day. I'm telling you at >> at the counterterrorism center >> we we more than doubled in size within two three days. >> Wow. And then even after that all these all these special forces guys just arrived like okay where do we go and then they started doing their thing. >> And when how soon was it after the

[26:02] towers came down that you were first approached about with the enhanced interrogation? >> Oh it was quite some time. Towers came down in September 11th. We started bombing Afghanistan in early October. Um, it was in late October that Mitchell and Jessen were introduced to George Tennant at a at a cocktail party. They pitched the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. I think we signed the contract in January. Uh, and then we were just waiting to see who's the first guy we're going to

[26:32] catch. We caught up with a beta in March. >> Yeah, I was going to say we're going to Pakistan >> and then I was approached the first week of May >> of 2002. >> Okay. And then you were still in there for a few years afterwards. I mean, obviously that is the core part of your story. We've told that on episode 249 and 250 a bunch before. We don't have to go through all that. >> Sure. >> But >> that was a disturbing thing that you saw at CIA. >> Yeah. Are there other things now years later

[27:02] that you're willing to talk about that you came across that maybe didn't involve you directly like that where people were like, "Hey, we want to actually bring you in on this that you just found viciously disturbing that they were doing?" >> No. Um I all throughout my CIA career I I worked with people who were doing their jobs to the highest ethical standard. It was it was because it post 911. >> Mhm. >> And everybody just kind of went nuts

[27:32] because this was the greatest intelligence failure in the CIA's history and because it was specific to the counterterrorism center. I think that's why there was so much that was sort of revealed to me. But otherwise, no. In fact, one time one time I was the notetaker. I was I was living in Bahrain at the time and um and uh Ambassador David Ransom, just an absolutely lovely guy, one of the just

[28:03] finest human beings I've ever worked for. He was a terrific ambassador and just a just a really great guy. Um he would frequently ask me to be the notetaker in his meetings with the uh Minister of Foreign Affairs. And the minister liked me and I liked him. His English was better than mine. Crazy as that might sound. >> But um if there was something sensitive that the ambassador needed to raise, he would always mention it to me in the car on the way to the foreign ministry like, "Don't let me forget to say X." And I'd

[28:35] jot down a note. So we went to see the foreign minister one time and um and he did forget to say X. And so at the end of the meeting, these meetings would go two hours. He turned to me and he said, "Is there anything else? Is there anything that I'm forgetting?" And I said, "Yes, there's the issue with Ambassador soandso." And he said, "Oh, that's right." and he said uh he said to the foreign minister, "One of my predecessors here in Bahrain,

[29:07] it's come to my attention uh is now working for the Bob Dole campaign and we understand that he may come out here and ask you for money. It is illegal for a foreign national to contribute money to an American political campaign." So, I just wanted to give you a heads up. H. And the minister says, "Oh, he's already been here. We gave him $50,000. We didn't realize it was illegal, but he went to see the Amir." And the Amir gave him

[29:38] $50,000. [snorts] So, we get back in the car and the ambassador says, "Listen, that last part, don't put that in the cable." He said, "That's a hornet's nest that I don't think either one of us want to be involved involved in." So, I didn't put it in the cable. You break the cable out by issue like the ambassador's meeting with the foreign minister Middle East peace, the ambassador's meeting with foreign minister uh the military agreement with the United States, ambassadors meeting with the foreign

[30:09] minister Iran and the threat from you know whatever. He told me not to write that. This was like a month or two or three before I I left to go back to headquarters. And I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it and I thought, you know, for my own selfish reasons, what happens if I go for my next polygraph and they ask me if I'm aware of a crime that I didn't report? >> Then then it's me, then I get fired. So I just pick up the phone one day and I

[30:40] call the general counsel's office. Guy a guy answers [snorts] the phone, George, and I said, "Hi, my name's John Kuryaku. I'm in the uh office of Near Eastern South Asian Analysis. He goes, "Wait, Kuryaku, are you from Ferrell, Pennsylvania?" And I go, "What?" I go, "Yeah, I was born in Frell, Pennsylvania." He said, "Is your dad Chris?" And I said, "Yeah, you know my dad?" And he said, "Your dad was the best man in my in-laws wedding." >> Oh my god. >> And I said, "Oh, cool." He says, "Let's have coffee." I said, "Okay." Better

[31:11] than just reporting this crime over the phone to a stranger. >> So with me in the cafeteria, nice guy. We're still friendly. Not friends, but we're friendly. So, uh, [snorts] so I said, you know, there's something I I'm aware of. I don't know if it's a big deal or not. It kind of feels like it might be a big deal, but I don't want it to trip me up on the polygraph. So, I told him and he's like, oh yeah, that's a felony. And I said, okay, so like, so I'm done. I don't have to write it write it down

[31:41] or anything. He said, put it in an email and send it to me. He said, I I'll send it over to DOJ. But at the very least, we have to report it because if word gets back to DOJ that you knew about it or I knew about it or your ambassador knew about it, we're all liable to be prosecuted. >> So I sent him an email and uh I don't know a year later or so since he was Greek and we had this Greek American kind of group at the agency. We would have lunch together once a month after that once George Tennant became director. Um, I asked him what ever

[32:15] happened to uh that thing. He said, "They didn't give a [ __ ] Nothing ever happened." I said, "Okay, well, we did the right thing." >> You did the right thing. I wonder if it had had two zeros at the end of that, two extra zeros if they would have given a little more of a [ __ ] >> right? >> I mean, 50K from the Amir feels like grab grab that change off the ashtray. >> Listen, you know what I mean? the the DCM, the deputy chief of mission, another good guy. His wife uh developed a very serious case of breast cancer

[32:46] while while we were there, and she had to be medevaced back to the United States. And the DCM went to uh curtail his his position. He had to go back, take care of his wife, etc., etc. They had a nine-year-old daughter at the time. >> This box arrives from the Royal Diwan. It's just a box wrapped in brown paper. And um and he said to me, "I got something from the royal diwan." And I said, "Oh, that's kind of cool. I never got anything from the royalty dwan, the

[33:16] royal palace." And he says, "Don't leave. I'm thinking I might need a witness." And I said, "Okay." He opens it up. $50,000 in cash with a getwell card to his wife. That's what lovely people they were. Mhm. >> They are. They remain lovely people. We can't accept $50,000. So, I walked 20 feet to the ambassador's office and knocked on the door and I said, "Ambassador, you're going to want to see this." So, he comes over. He's like,

[33:47] "Oh, for God's sake." And he said, "I I just got it from the Royal Dwan." And he said, "Okay, we need to count it. We need witnesses." So, we counted it all out. It was 50,000. And then I wrote a cable to the Treasury Department saying, "We're pouching back $50,000." That's from the Amir. And it just goes into the treasury >> with our tax dollars. >> Well, I guess thank you for the donation to our tax revenue. >> Yeah, >> there's something gets used, right? >> Yeah, it gets used. Sure.

[34:19] >> Do you think that have you discovered things in the years since being out of CIA, which has been a long time now? >> It's been out a long time. that shocks you? And and and before you answer that, the reason I asked that is because whether it's CIA, NSA, Sure. >> wherever. >> A brilliant tactic that all these bureaucracies use is they compartmentalize people to work on what they're working on. >> That's right. And that's what they want you to do. They want you to be compartmentalized so you're not

[34:50] wondering what Fred's doing down the hall. That's right. >> Because it's none of your damn business what Fred's doing down the hall. >> So question remains. Are there things that you've discovered that CIA does that >> doesn't have to be a fair bad reason either, but >> Oh, yeah. You know, I've been shocked. Shocks you. >> Yeah, I've been shocked. I was shocked with the um Vault 7 revelations in 2017, >> the Wikileaks stuff. >> Yeah, that was shocking. >> Now, what was that? >> Vault 7 is very complicated. Among other things, Vault 7 showed that the CIA had develop had developed hacking capability

[35:22] where they could hack into, you know, the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Cubans, whomever, hack the system and then leave traces of the hack on purpose, but with the traces written in cerillic or Mandarin >> so that once they were discovered by the IT security guys in those countries, they'd say, "Oh, It was the Russians that did it. They left, look, they left one little line of code and it's all written in Russian >> conveniently.

[35:52] >> Yeah. So, that was one thing. Another thing that Vault 7 taught us was that the CIA um developed the capability to take over your car remotely by hacking into the car's computer system to drive you off a bridge or into a tree. >> Now, did we discover examples of where this was used? >> We did not. But the conventional wisdom among the bloggerosphere is that, you know, we should ask Michael Hastings what happened to him.

[36:22] >> Um, >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Vault 7 also told us that the CIA is able to take over a smart TV to turn the the speaker into a microphone so that it broadcasts everything taking place in the room with the TV still off. Well, the TV's on. So, hello. >> Pretty impressive. >> Hello, Langley. Yeah. How are you? >> So, what that told me, those are very cool. And and there were a dozen more things that were part of Vault 7. But

[36:55] what it also told me is that [snorts] the CIA is running parallel operations with NSA. Why is the CIA developing this stuff? This is NSA and DARPA that should be doing it. And NSA and DARPA are doing it, >> but the CIA is also doing it. How do you like what? Because >> on the one hand they have so much money that they can't spend it all >> so they just make their own NSA, make their own DARPA. I have a buddy I sat next to him for the first three and a

[37:26] half years of my career. He's now the deputy director of the CIA for innovation. Like what's that? He was always a computer nerd. >> Yeah. And I remember he got a he got an award like 1991 because he came up with a program uh to make a very crude family tree. Like computers were new to us at the time. When I first started, I had this big box that had a green screen. It was about that big called a Delta data. And I had an IBM Select Electric 3 typewriter next to me because half of

[37:56] what we did was on the uh typewriter still. So he came up with this crude family tree so we could do the Saudi royal family, the Kuwaiti royal family, Bahraini royal family, just so it's, you know, clear when you're doing your analysis. And they were like, "Wow, you did that on this new computer. That's amazing. Here's $500 and an exceptional performance award. Now he's the deputy director of the CIA for innovation, which tells me that he's in charge of all this crazy [ __ ] that we're reading about at Wikileaks."

[38:26] >> That's what I don't understand, though. Like why even have DARPA or NSA if it's not just a department of like CIA or and the other way around with CIA being a department? You know what I mean? Like why do you even have separation? Because the same you may I'll give you an example. You may call on >> [ __ ] Tim Cook at Apple to take care of something they need. If you're DARPA, it's like CIA can call them too. >> Yeah, sure. So why aren't they all just

[38:56] under one roof? >> Often times it's a bureaucratic pissing match where the Secretary of Defense will say, "Well, C CIA does its own thing for its own reasons. We're very specific. Our mission is, you know, to protect the homeland and our troops and whatever." CIA is like, "We don't really give a [ __ ] about the troops. We don't have any any thing to do with the troops except maybe we'll see them in the cafeteria when we're at some base somewhere. So we want it for CIA reasons." And NSA is like, "Whoa, wait a minute. we're NSA. This is exactly what we're supposed to be doing, so we're

[39:28] going to be doing it. >> But again, when you have so much money that you can't spend it all in a fiscal year, you end up just replicating >> uh what the other guys are doing. >> And does Congress even actually know what kind of money >> that CIA has? No. >> How does that get hidden? [clears throat] single year, year after year after year after year, Congress appropriates more money than the Defense Department asks for. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah, cuz then you're you're not weak on

[39:59] defense. Those pinkos otherwise, you know. Yeah. and and there's how many trillions of dollars missing and after how many years of of internal audits Price Waterhouse Cooper just gave up and said we don't know where this money went. It's just gone. >> How do you like what what kind of I guess look through, see through, work with, however you want to say it, did you have with NSA >> during your career for things you did

[40:30] and what was that like? >> I had a good relationship with NSA. I made a point of making that long drive out to NSA at least once a year just to say, "Hey, how you guys doing? What are you working on? Let's go have a coffee in the cafeteria." And then we would invite them to come over to the agency. They would always come like six or eight at a time and we'd spend the day and take them to the gift shop and whatever. >> She got along. >> Oh yeah. Always got along. And then they would they would call and say, "Listen, we're going to publish something in about an hour, but you need you need to

[41:01] know what this is because you work on XYZ issue." And they would give me a heads up so I could call the seventh floor and say, "Listen, NSA is coming out with something big. This is what they're going to say." Um, and that was a valuable relationship. Um, even operationally I had a good relationship with NSA to the point where in one of my overseas tours I worked closely with an NSA officer and he really did me a solid. Um,

[41:32] there were a couple of phone numbers I asked him to just start intercepting and tell me if there's anything interesting. and just to be a nice guy. He also began intercepting the phone of one of my sources. >> And so he said to me one day, "Hey, I I have a present for you." And he gives me this file and it's a transcript of everything that my source has said. And I was like, "This is [ __ ] brilliant." So now I can say, "Hey, do you ever talk to soand so

[42:04] because I know it's there. I know he does." And then if he says, "Yeah, actually I talked to I talked to him on Tuesday." You did? What did he say? And then he'll just pair it back. So I know he's telling the truth. That's called operational vetting. >> And so I can write to headquarters and say I know for 100% certainty that he's telling me the truth. >> Wow. So there that's interesting because you always hear about like this inter agency rivalry and stuff and you would think that when CIA has their own innovation and technology design ar

[42:41] >> working together. It's just weird. >> Yeah. And then throw in throw in the whole nonsense about Inqel and Palunteer >> where >> please do throw it in John >> where the CIA now is in the venture capital business for a profit. >> Uhhuh. >> Which is illegal. Um they >> not if you're writing the laws. Not not if you're writing the laws where the CIA in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 created something called inqell which is a cutesy you know play on intel

[43:13] with Q from the James Bond movies in the middle like I hope they didn't pay somebody to come up with that but anyway um it's like the kind of famous story that the >> that the tourism board of Scotland spent $150,000 hiring a consulting firm to come up with a tourism slogan and for $150,000 they came up with visit Scotland. [laughter] >> It's true. Google it. >> Well, that's the consulting class for you. >> Yeah. So, anyway, um

[43:46] they came up with InQel. InQEL's very first investment was not a lot. It was like I I I can't remember if it's a million and a half. I think it's a million and a half to Palunteer >> in like 03, something like that. >> 02. Yeah. >> And um and now Palunteer is a trillion dollar company that makes most of its money contracting with the CIA. It's publicly traded company and everybody listen I subscribe to Barrens every week. It's like buy Palunteer, buy

[44:18] Palunteer, buy Palunteer. >> What do you think of their capabilities and what they're trying to do just right now. >> The agency. >> No, Palanteer, which is the agency. >> Yeah. Which kind of is the agency. You know, I I worry very much about about It's even too weak to say encroachment on our civil liberties. I I worry about the violation of our civil liberties very much.

[44:48] >> It is against the law for the CIA to spy on Americans. Period. >> Period. >> That's it. It's against the law, but they do every day. It's against the law and it's actually a part of NSA's charter that they cannot spy on Americans. You cannot intercept the communications of Americans. And that's practically all they do, right? where they had to build this new facility out in Utah in the desert that can hold every phone call, every text message,

[45:18] every email from every American for the next 500 years. >> 500 years. >> 500 years. How about this? Even the FBI no longer has to get a warrant um to take your communications, right? The metadata from your communications is for sale. All they have to do is call T-Mobile and say, "Hey, uh, I want Julian Dory's uh, communications. Here's the five grand that you charge." >> That's the thing. What Palanteer does is

[45:49] a whole another level. And I want to stay with that for a second, but I've had Mike Yaggley, who I mentioned earlier, sitting in this chair twice in the past two months. And the way that he got back in the crosshairs of the government where they went, "What the fuck?" was he was working on amalgamating marketing data and he realized what you could just buy publicly legally. And so he bought a bunch of data in North Carolina around Fort Bragg and tracked a bunch of phones leaving Fort Bragg going to a neighborhood about 45 minutes away that

[46:21] was a little bit higher income, meaning these are most likely special forces. track down the names of everyone who lived there, where they went, what they did, realized they were special forces, then watched them and charted them, go across to Syria once every other month for 5 days to Lafar's concrete company or Lefar concrete company where which was obviously a cover for some undercover operation they were doing. Yeah. And he went to the government and showed them and he said, "I did this in my bedroom. >> What do you think China's doing?"

[46:52] Jason Leupold, who is a an investigative journalist for Bloomberg, formerly of Vice, BuzzFeed, the LA Times, absolutely brilliant journalist. He was once called a Foya terrorist by the uh Pentagon spokesman because he has filed more foyer requests than any other person in American history. He broke the Hillary Clinton email story just by >> sending in a foyer request. Well, he he revealed the location of the CIA's

[47:25] secret um drone surveillance base in Baluchistan, Pakistan. And you know how he did it? He read somewhere that drones use a certain kind of aviation fuel. And so he just did a Freedom of Information Act request to the Pentagon for uh the locations of of all of the um deliveries of this aviation fuel. And like millions of dollars of fuel were going into this, you know, desert base in southwestern Pakistan, this top secret base that's

[47:57] not top secret anymore because the Freedom of Information Act has told us so. For all the smart guys in government who are supposed to keep a secret and claim to be able to keep the secret and whatever, they literally write stuff in the modern metadata that someone at home can get. >> That's it. >> That's right. >> That's why it gets hard to certain secrets. >> I wonder >> it gets hard to believe that they wouldn't be able to be uncovered in some ways. And that gets to some of the weirdest [ __ ] if you start to think about it. Yeah. >> But we got we got off we're talking about the regular public metadata right

[48:29] here. But Palanteer themselves, I mean, that's a whole another level. >> Yeah. So what kinds of things right now are you most concerned about with what they're doing? >> You know, we we don't really know a lot of what Palanteer does. Most of it is classified and even then it's classified at the top secret level because it involves technology. And we know that they have massive uh contracts with uh the CIA. And it's not just the CIA. They work with DARPA. They work with the Pentagon at large. They work with NSA. They're all over government now. They didn't even exist

[49:00] 20 years ago practically. >> That's a Peter Teal company, too. >> Yeah. >> Very powerful guy. >> Very powerful. >> What do What do you think of the Alex Garp guy who runs it? >> You know, I did a little I was I was hired by an interest group to do a little biographical mockup of the two of them. And they're exactly the kind of guys that the CIA would want to be >> doing business with. They're um

[49:31] conservatives. They are religious. Um they are extremely patriotic but driven by profit. >> And they'll do as they're told and they'll keep their mouth shut. >> Karp is is militarily industrially conservative, but he's technically a Democrat. Right. >> Yeah. I think he never switched his party affiliation. Yeah. He's like a little hard to put in a box with some things, but >> and he has said that in interviews where

[50:03] >> party politics don't hold any interest for him, >> right? >> Yeah. It's tough >> when you start talking about surveilling citizens though at like a protest you don't like or something like that >> with drones the size of a of a bumblebee or or a wasp. Yeah. >> So, no one can even see it. >> Yeah. >> We're getting to the birds aren't real territory. >> Very much. Very much. Yes, we are. Yes. It's frightening. >> What about when they're a a company that

[50:35] is contracted by CIA and for all intents and purposes created by CIA sense that they funded them? How about them working on other conflicts around the world though? Isn't that like a conflict of interest? >> Four other countries. >> Yes, >> I would say it is. But they would probably argue that they've stovepiped everything and that there's no crossover. that if they're working on a CIA project, it's just these people in this box working on a CIA project. If they have an MI6 project, it's over here and never the two shall meet. But what about a Braxis Corporation? Here's

[51:05] here's another one. So, right around the time that I came home from Athens in 2000, there was a kind of a wave of senior level um retirements. And these were all pretty important guys, you know, the head of European operations, the head of near east operations, the head of domestic operations, whatever. And um they decided to just create an LLC where they could go, you know, smoke cigars

[51:35] and drink coffee and hang out and play peuckle all day and uh take a tax deduction. And so you got to show you got to show a gain in two out of five years in order to keep your LLC. So they put in for a couple what they call butts and seats uh contracts where you just take anybody who's got a security clearance, put them in these seats, let them do data entry for six

[52:05] months, and then the contract's over and they all get fired. They all have 1099s anyway, so you don't care. Well, now they're like a, you know, 20 billion dollar company because at headquarters, I remember this happening at the time. They're like, "Oh, we we have a real need for XYZ." And somebody says, "What about Jack? Jack's got this Abraasis thing now. >> We know everybody. They're all friends of ours. >> Greatest shell company of all time." >> And then there you go. >> Yeah.

[52:36] >> And it was taken over once, twice, three times. It changed its name a couple times. I think it's still known as a brais based in Tyson's Corner, Virginia. These guys never expected to be billionaires. [laughter] They were just looking for a tax deduction on their coffee and cigars. >> Oh, that's the definition of finding money. [laughter] It's like, oh, there it is. >> There it is. I might as well take it. >> But like back to Palunteer though, they're So you would imagine they're compartmentalizing for different

[53:06] countries. Doesn't it get weird though when you have an organization that has intel about every one of these countries individually themselves that allegedly they're not passing back the CIA >> especially when the conventional wisdom is that this is a CIA company? >> Yeah. Like wouldn't doesn't that feel a little bit like it could be the start of a 1984 novel? I would guess that, okay, if they're working for the Brits, the Australians, the Canadians, the New Zealanders, we don't care.

[53:38] >> Okay. >> Okay. Because Five Eyes, we're all sharing everything anyway. >> Okay. >> But let's say they're working for the French, the Germans, whatever. The Hungarians, who knows? I don't know. Um, I am going to say that an officer from the CIA's um, National Resources Division, those CIA officers around the United States, the National Resources Division was created just so when a corporate CEO or

[54:09] other officer went to a denied area, say he went to Moscow for a meeting or Beijing for a meeting, somebody from the NR division would go and say, "Hey, you know, I'm from the CIA. you're a patriot. Can I ask you some questions about your trip? They always always say yes >> because they're patriots. I would guess that with Palunteer, they there are regular routine meetings within our division saying, "Ah, you know, I was in uh the United Arab Emirates the other day and I ran into soand so and this is what he's

[54:39] interested in." And you know, something like that. >> Yeah, that one just scares me. I don't know. It's also like the guy, you did the biography on him, but the guys who are in charge just seem a little >> Teal and Karp when they talk, they seem a little divorced from reality, particularly of the everyman, to be clear. >> And I think that's how it starts. >> Yeah. >> Right. [clears throat] >> Totally agree. >> Look at Elon Musk. You know >> what about Elon? >> I mean, he's not the same Elon Musk from 10 or 20 years ago.

[55:11] >> I told you my my Elon Musk story. >> Yeah. back when you met him at the across the street from the White House at the hotel. >> Hey, Adam's hotel. >> When you say he's not the same guy like just normal personality changes or >> I think it's a combination of things. You know, he just signed a $1 trillion contract with Tesla. He's going to have to make a bunch of a bunch of targets to uh to collect that money. But >> it's no longer about the technology. It's no longer about,

[55:42] for example, when is the last time you heard him talk about colonizing Mars? Time was you couldn't get him to shut up about colonizing Mars. What about the high-speed vacuum tube that we were supposed to go from from LA to San Francisco in 45 minutes? What happened to that, >> John? Men, I when I saw that trillion dollar deal, I had a thought that I was like, damn, I should have had this thought [ __ ] 15 years ago. Like when you look at the math cuz it was already true then. But men are becoming

[56:12] countries. >> Yes, >> he's a country. >> Yeah, >> it's about to be worth a trillion dollars in >> you know if I were Elon Musk I would worry about you know and eat the rich movement. >> Of course >> I I really would I would worry for my own safety. >> Well, he has positioned himself I'm not even saying this is wrong at all. I'm saying it's just interesting. He's positioned himself as the man of the people who saved free speech and is speaking for the everyman and >> funded Trump who represents the everyman

[56:44] and stuff like that. But you are absolutely right that who said this the other day? I want to give them credit, but it's like it should be the Captain Obvious point, but they just put it so beautifully and it's exactly what it is. They're like the future isn't a division of left right problems. That's just what we're looking at right now. It's up down. It's elite and everyone else. And when you look at any empire that has fallen around the world, one of the many traits of the falling of the empire, and I would argue it's probably the most important trait is a severe separation

[57:18] and disagreement in future and hope as it pertains to the lower classes and the elites. And we talked about it earlier was something else, but you see that wealth cap divide. This is something that's happening around the world. And you are getting so wealthy that you know chump change of their wealth could solve world problems. And I say this as someone who is in no way a socialist or anything like that. I I don't agree with that ideology. But >> you know does a person need a trillion

[57:48] dollars? No the [ __ ] they don't. Sorry. Nope. >> Sorry. I I I don't I'm I don't think I think it's a slippery slope to say, "Oh, you make that illegal." But like you got to have some self-awareness or something. I don't know. give some of it away. I I I don't know. It's easy for me to sit here as a guy who's worth. Warren Buffett has famously said that he's leaving his children literally nothing. >> Respect that a lot. >> I do too. Every cent of it goes to charity. >> And you know what? If I don't know how his kids or grandkids feel about that,

[58:19] but I would imagine if they get older and wiser, especially like the grandkids and the ones who were younger, they'll they'll thank them for that. >> Yeah, they will. >> You're not you you don't have any fulfillment in life when you're just giving money. Mm- >> I I always in my old career I I saw that, you know, >> the kids that had the trust funds, they were just dead. >> Oh, yeah. >> They were dead. >> Yeah. And they never really reached any kind of potential. >> Nope. They were always living in the shadow of something that wasn't theirs. And I felt I actually felt bad for a lot of them, you know, like they didn't

[58:49] choose to have that happen, >> you know? >> Yeah. >> But >> agreed. >> I I I just think there's something about the purpose of life that like you make your own way, whatever that is, you You know, I do something public. I want to be the greatest in the world at it. I will be one day. You know, I'm going to have kids. >> Yep. >> I want them to go do their own [ __ ] thing. I don't want them to worry about like what their dad did and >> have to [clears throat] none of my kids, none of my five kids have any interest in doing what I did, which I think is wonderful. And they've all done things

[59:20] completely different from each other. My oldest is a bond trader >> in uh Chicago. My second is an elementary school music teacher in North Carolina. My third is getting a degree in supply chain economics. My fourth changes her mind, but right now she's studying engineering. And my fifth is is in eighth grade. >> But uh they're all they have completely different interests, which I think is the the best and the healthiest.

[59:50] >> And that's and and that you know I just think that leads to more happiness that way, too. And it's great that you support that as well. Also, not for nothing, I wouldn't want to follow in your footsteps after what they did to you as well. So, maybe that was one good thing come out of it. Right. >> That's right. [laughter] That's right. >> John, it is always a pleasure, man. We'll do this again. >> Always enjoy coming here and seeing you. >> Love talking with you about world events. You have such a good outlook on stuff. So, until next time. >> Good. We'll have everything linked down below for you. Your ex, your substack, your new show, all that.

[1:00:21] >> Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. >> Okay. >> Great. I look forward to it. Thank All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
