Title: 5-26-17 Nicole Sandler Show - Our Dangerous World with J
Show: Nicole Sandler
Date: 2017-05-26
URL: https://youtu.be/GLiupCJPu_I
Duration: 1:01:00

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[00:01] The program contains graphic material including offensive language, viewer discretion is advised.

[00:52] When the press is free, the people of a country are free. When the press is not free, the people of a country are in danger of slavery. Keeping you informed with information, news and the views of people making the news.

[01:23] It's the Nicole Sandler Show on thecolesandler.com and the Progressive Voices Network. All right, well happy Friday everybody. Yes, we made it to another Friday and that alone is an accomplishment. So congratulations on that. You know, I've got a bunch of different intros to the program and I specifically chose that one today because our guest today spent about two years in prison because he gave information to a journalist. He is a whistleblower who worked for the CIA. His name is John Curiacu and he'll be joining us in about a half hour.

[01:56] And I'm thrilled to speak with him. I've never met him before but I'm a big, big fan. In this day, in this age when we're being told that whistleblowers are bad, actually they're calling them leakers. I'm curious to know from John what he believes the difference between a leaker and a whistleblower is because I think it's a very fine line. And regardless, if there's somebody in a position of power in the government who is exposing wrongdoing in the government, then to me they are heroes, heroes and deserve to be applauded and appreciated.

[02:32] And that's what we'll do with John Curiacu today. Earlier, and the other reason I picked that open was because a journalist, the day before yesterday, was beaten by a guy who was running for Congress and that guy unfortunately won. Yeah, what is his name? Greg Gianforte in Montana beat Rob Quist. You know, the odds were in Gianforte's favor.

[03:05] It would have been nice to see a Democrat win that race but we got to remember it was Montana. It was a long shot. Most of the voting was done in early voting long before the assault happened. And you know, that's the way it goes. But something to keep in mind is Donald Trump won Montana by something like 30 points. Gianforte only won by seven. So we are making progress. But today's pre-show music was about fighting back and standing up and not letting go, not giving an inch.

[03:38] And there's good reason for that. I found an editorial I want to share with you. Before we do, because they reference this, I rarely, I don't think I've ever quoted David Brooks before. But in the New York Times, David Brooks wrote an editorial comparing Donald Trump to a child. I say he's a petulant child, more so every day. But here's a paragraph from that editorial. David Brooks wrote, four-year-olds can pay attention.

[04:08] They do have difficult changing the focus of their attention in response to arbitrary commands. But recent studies show that even babies systematically direct their focus to the events and objects that will teach them the most. They pay special attention to events that contradict what they already believe. Mr. Trump refuses to pay attention to anything that clashes with his preconceptions. I may have to find the entire op-ed and read it, even if it is David Brooks. Earlier today, Hillary Clinton delivered the commencement address at her alma mater, Wesley College.

[04:44] And I didn't hear it. Oh no, did I? I think I copied the same clip twice. So let me do it this way. All right, first of all, I didn't hear the whole thing. I just heard a couple of quick, and so I'm not going to assault your ears with too much Hillary Clinton. But there were a couple of clips that I pulled that I want you to hear. Here's the first one. What my friends had asked me to do. I should set this up. She was talking about how when she was graduating, she was a speaker at her commencement.

[05:17] And so she talked about staying up late in her dorm and what she was writing to deliver her address at her own graduation. So that's where we pick up. What my friends had asked me to do was to talk about our worries and about our ability and responsibility to do something about them. We didn't trust government, authority first, or really anyone over 30.

[05:50] In large part thanks to years of heavy casualties and dishonest official statements about Vietnam and deep differences over civil rights and poverty here at home. We were asking urgent questions about whether women, people of color, religious minorities, immigrants would ever be treated with dignity and respect. History repeats. And by the way, we were furious about the past presidential election of a man whose presidency would eventually end in disgrace with his impeachment for obstruction of justice.

[06:36] And the crowd went wild. And a little later, I don't know if, honestly, I don't know if this was before or after because as I said, I didn't hear the whole speech. I just found a few clips online. But these two stood out for me. Here's the other one. Dream views are given powerful microphones. Leaders willing to exploit fear and skepticism have tools at their disposal that were unimaginable when I graduated. And here's what that means to you, the class of 2017.

[07:12] You are graduating at a time when there is a full-fledged assault on truth and reason. Just log on. Just log on to social media for 10 seconds. It will hit you right in the face. People denying science. People incocting elaborate, hurtful conspiracy theories about child abuse rings operating out of pizza parlors.

[07:48] Drumming up rampant fear about undocumented immigrants, Muslims, minorities, the poor, turning neighbor against neighbor and sowing division at a time when we desperately need unity. And we are not getting unity from this administration or from the Republican Party. We are at a scary, scary time in history. Again, Hillary Clinton got good reviews for her speech today. Apparently she trolled Trump hard.

[08:19] Who knows? Maybe next week we'll have some clips. Maybe not. But a lot of what she said, what I heard of what she said resonated. But it brings me to this editorial that I read earlier today from Durst Spiegel. It is the German, Germany's newspaper of record. It's there New York Times. And I read this editorial and with each paragraph, I'm thinking, all right, I'll just read a couple of paragraphs from it. But I can't stop. So I'm going to share the whole thing with you.

[08:51] Because this is a, this is a clarion call. This is telling America we need to do something. And if we don't do it, the world will do it because we are at that desperate a time. So the editorial, the headline reads a danger to the world. It's time to get rid of Donald Trump. An editorial. Yes. Donald Trump has transformed the United States into a laughing stock and he is a danger to the world.

[09:23] He must be removed from the White House before things get even worse. Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States. He does not possess the requisite intellect and does not understand the significance of the office he holds nor the tasks associated with it. He doesn't read. He doesn't bother to peruse important files and intelligence reports and knows little about the issues that he has identified as his priorities. His decisions are capricious and they are delivered in the form of tyrannical decrees.

[09:53] He is a man free of morals, as has been demonstrated hundreds of times. He is a liar, a racist and a cheat. I feel ashamed to use these words as sharp and loud as they are. But if they apply to anyone, they apply to Trump. And one of the one of the media's tasks is to continue telling things as they are. Trump has to be removed from the White House quickly. He is a danger to the world. Trump is a miserable politician. He fired the FBI director simply because he could.

[10:26] James Comey had gotten under his skin with his investigation into Trump's confidants. Comey had also refused to swear loyalty and fealty to Trump and to abandon the investigation. He had to go. Trump is also a miserable boss. His people invent excuses for him and lie on his behalf because they have to. But then Trump wakes up and post tweets that contradict what they have said. He doesn't care that his spokesman, his secretary of state and his national security adviser

[10:59] had just denied that the president had handed Russia of all countries sensitive intelligence gleaned from Israel of all countries. Trump tweeted, yes, yes I did because I can. I'm president after all. Nothing is as it should be in this White House. Everyone working there has been compromised multiple times and now they all despise each other and everyone except for Trump despises Trump. Because of all that, after just 120 days of the Trump administration

[11:32] we are witness to an American tragedy for which there are five theoretical solutions. The first is Trump's resignation, which won't happen. The second is that Republicans in the House and Senate support impeachment which would be justified by the president's proven obstruction of justice but won't happen because of the Republicans thirst for power which they won't willingly give up. The third possible solution is the invocation of the 25th amendment which would require the cabinet to declare Trump unfit to discharge the powers of the presidency.

[12:07] That isn't particularly likely either. Fourth, the Democrats get ready to fight and win back majorities in the House and Senate in midterm elections, which are 18 months away, before they then pursue option two, impeachment. Fifth, the international community wakes up and finds a way to circumvent the White House and free itself of its dependence on the U.S. Unlike the preceding four options, the fifth doesn't directly solve the Trump problem

[12:38] but is nevertheless necessary and possible. Not quite two weeks ago, a number of experts and politicians focused on foreign policy met in Washington at the invitation of the Munich Security Conference. It wasn't difficult to sense the atmosphere of chaos and agony that has descended upon the city. The U.S. elected a laughing stock to the presidency and has now made itself dependent on a joke of a man. The country is, as David Brooks wrote recently in The New York Times, and I referenced a few minutes ago,

[13:11] dependent on a child. The Trump administration has no foreign policy because Trump has consistently promised American withdrawal while invoking America's strength. He has promised both no wars and more wars. He makes decisions according to his mood with no strategic coherence or tactical logic. Moscow and Beijing are laughing at America. Elsewhere, people are worried. In the Pacific warships, American and Chinese circle each other in close proximity.

[13:45] The conflict with North Korea is escalating. Who can be certain that Donald Trump won't risk nuclear war simply to save his own skin? Efforts to stop climate change are in trouble, and many expect the U.S. to withdraw from the Paris Agreement because Trump is wary of legally binding measures. Crises, including those in Syria and Libya, are escalating, but no longer being discussed. And who should they be discussed with? Phone calls and emails to the U.S. State Department go unanswered.

[14:15] Nothing is regulated. Nothing is stable, and the transatlantic relationship hardly exists anymore. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel and Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Norbert Rutkin fly back and forth, but Germany and the U.S. no longer understand each other. Hardly any real communication takes place. There are no joint foreign policy goals, and there is no strategy. In Game of Thrones, the Mad King was murdered, and the child that later took his place was no better.

[14:49] In real life, an immature boy sits on the throne of the most important country in the world. He could, at any time, issue a catastrophic order that would immediately be carried out. That is why the parents cannot afford to take their eyes off him even for a second. They cannot succumb to exhaustion because he is so taxing. They ultimately have to send him to his room and return power to the grown-ups. That was an editorial from a few days ago in Der Spiegel, Germany's newspaper of record,

[15:29] written by Klaus Brinkbaumer. They put an author's name on their op-ed pieces. Everything he said, this is the dire situation in which we find ourselves. Germany, while he was over there and making nice to the Saudis and saying, I'm not going to lecture you, this moronic manchild scolded our closest allies,

[16:04] the members of NATO, and talked down to them, shoved one of the other NATO members aside. I forget, Rotterdam, I think it was the president of Rotterdam, the newest member of NATO. He pushed them aside to get in the front for the picture. Because even if he belonged in the front, because he's from the United States, the very gesture just showed the petulant nature of this man

[16:36] who shouldn't be leading a company let alone a country. I don't know about you, but I am so, so disgusted by what we're looking at today. And then I think of the guests that's coming up. And although in comparison, yes, Barack Obama was night and day to Donald Trump. He was a smart man. He is a smart man who apparently is speaking in Germany today and drawing quite the crowd, I should note. Both he and Hillary Clinton taking swipes at Trump because they are needed and necessary and called for.

[17:13] But somebody in the chat room asked, where was that Hillary Clinton during the campaign? She was there. She was there, but she was too busy talking about how awful Trump is instead of talking about the great things that she would do, what she would do as president. And I do believe, look, some people have pointed at Rob Quist and said the reason he lost was because he spent too much time talking about Trump. Well, I'm not in Montana, so I can't debunk it personally. But from a number of journalists, including Dave Weigel, who covers these things for the Washington Post,

[17:46] he said 90% of what Quist talked about was health care and the issues that are important. But on a national level, the Democratic Party is so inept. Just listen to yesterday's show with Howie Klein to understand how the DNC and the DCCC and the DCCC do politics as usual and that kind of politics doesn't work. Instead of talking about how they're going to make things better for the nation, all they're talking about is how evil Trump is. We know Trump is evil.

[18:17] I'm going to share this Der Spiegel editorial. I'll put it on my blog. I already tweeted it out earlier today, so it's on Twitter, it's on my Facebook page. And by the way, though I'm like almost full, I keep deleting people from Facebook, but it's an open page so anyone can follow it and you can read everything I post there. I do have a show page, but I just post the show and What's News on there. My personal page, you can follow and read anything I post. It's there. Everybody should read this. But this is something we all know. My God, even Joe Scarborough.

[18:49] Did you hear Joe Scarborough ranting about Trump and the way these Republicans are lying? I included some of it in What's News. Here's a little bit. Joe Scarborough, after I'll play, it'll be in What's News in a couple of minutes, so I won't play the whole thing, but Bernie Sanders was quizzing Mick Mulvaney about the estate tax because their budget repeals the estate tax. And he asked why the Waltons, the Walmart heirs, deserve a $52 billion tax cut.

[19:23] Let me say that again. The richest family in the nation with this Republican tax plan or the budget, the President's budget, would get a $52 billion tax cut while you and I lose our health insurance. And he lied about it. He said that Medicaid would not be cut. Joe Scarborough, Republican, not a guy I like or have any respect for usually, he's seen the light.

[19:54] Here's a little bit of what he said this morning. Did he say we don't cut Medicaid? Yes. That is just a lie. That is a certifiable lie. Now listen, you can debate the $23 million number. You really can. You can debate, or maybe that's people that choose not to be unaccepted. I understand those arguments, right? I disagree with them, but I understand them. But $850 billion is real. Those are real cuts. Why does he keep lying?

[20:24] Why do the Republicans keep looking into cameras and lie? Who do they think is stupid enough that you can't read the numbers in the Wall Street Journal? It's very clear you're cutting $850 billion in Medicaid for the poorest of the poor. If you want to do it, embrace it. Don't lie about it. Stop lying about it. We know you're lying about it. We're not stupid. And you Republicans in the House have been lying nonstop about what you're not going to cut

[20:57] and who's not going to lose health coverage. We're not dumb. I understand. There has been a coarsening of political culture. I understand that Donald Trump lies all the time. All the time. And you're thinking he got away with it, right? And so you can get away with lying? You can't. Do not go to Capitol Hill and lie through your teeth every day. That's all I got to say. But it wasn't all he had to say because he kept going. It is so maddening.

[21:27] This is my party. My party is going straight to hell politically. They really are. They're going straight to hell. They have embraced the coarsening of culture where the truth means absolutely nothing. Conservative values mean absolutely nothing. Our traditional allies that have stood by us shoulder to shoulder bleeding and dying scaling the cliffs of Normandy to free a continent.

[22:00] That means nothing to these people. They will embrace Vladimir Putin and Russia if Donald Trump does. Why do you sell your soul and not just your political soul? You were selling your soul if you just keep lying about things that you know are not true. Believe it or not, that was Joe Scarborough. And he was ranting at Mick Mulvaney, the head of the budget, the budget department,

[22:30] office of budget and management, the budget director. Sorry. I knew I'd get it eventually. For lying, lying about these draconian cuts in Donald Trump's budget and what the healthcare repeal would do. When you got Joe Scarborough calling out his own party for lying, and it wasn't just Mick Mulvaney. He broadened it. He was talking about Greg Gianforte, who did apologize to Ben Jacobs, by the way,

[23:00] too little, too late. But he did apologize as if that'll make it better. That guy is headed to Congress, and he thinks it's okay to beat up on a journalist. We're living in trouble times, my friends, and we need to heed what Dear Spiegel said. You know, I remember thinking how George Bush, W, had embarrassed our nation on the world stage. We ain't seen nothing yet. We'll take a break. We'll listen to what's news, get the rest of what I didn't get to here,

[23:30] and come back with CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou next. Thanks for listening. I'm Nicole Sandler. It's NicoleSandler.com and the Progressive Voices Network. It's time for Nicole Sandler's What's New is from NicoleSandler.com and the Progressive Voices Network. Heds are still shaking after Donald Trump scolded our NATO allies at the unveiling of a 9-11 memorial at the new NATO headquarters in Brussels on Thursday, especially in the wake of his deferential speech in Saudi Arabia

[24:02] where he made no mention of human rights abuses and other atrocities the government routinely engages in. MSNBC aired a very telling mash-up of Trump's two addresses. We are not here to lecture. We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do. I have been very, very direct in saying that NATO members must finally contribute their fair share and meet their financial obligations. Instead, we are here to offer partnership based on shared interests and values.

[24:35] But 23 of the 28 member nations are still not paying what they should be paying and what they are supposed to be paying for their defense. I also promise that America will not seek to impose our way of life on others. This is not fair to the people and taxpayers of the United States. I stand before you as a representative of the American people. Speaking of MSNBC, they're enjoying great primetime rating success as the network's progressive evening lineup, anchored by the Rachel Maddow show,

[25:06] continues to dominate all of cable television. Perhaps some of it is rubbing off on the conservative namesake of Morning Joe, Joe Scarborough, who Friday morning listened to this exchange between Senator Bernie Sanders and Budget Director Mick Mulvaney with a noticeable lack of patience. The wealthiest family in America gets a 52 billion dollar tax break as a result of the appeal of the estate tax. Tell the American people why you think that's good when you cut Medicaid and you cut programs for kids. We don't cut Medicaid. We're talking about repealing Obamacare, the results that you mentioned.

[25:39] So we're 23 million people off of health insurance. That's right? Which is a CBO number that I think you just agreed could be wrong. I didn't agree to that at all. They were talking about the Walton family, the Walmart heirs, getting a 52 billion dollar tax break with the elimination of the estate tax, something that affects approximately 0.02% of Americans. Joe Scarborough heard enough. Did he say we don't cut Medicaid? Yes. That is just a lie. That is a certifiable lie. Why do the Republicans keep looking into cameras and lie?

[26:13] So do not go to Capitol Hill and lie through your teeth every day. It is so maddening. This is my party. My party is going straight to hell politically. They really are. They're going straight to hell. They have embraced the coarsening of culture where the truth means absolutely nothing. Conservative values mean absolutely nothing.

[26:43] They will embrace Vladimir Putin and Russia if Donald Trump does. Why do you sell your soul? And not just your political soul. You were selling your soul if you just keep lying about things that you know are not true. Words I never thought I'd hear from Joe Scarborough. But these times are wearing on us all. In other news, the Republican who beat up on a reporter from the Guardian for simply asking a question about the CBO scoring on the GOP Obamacare repeal bill

[27:15] won the special election for Congress from Montana. The final tally was only seven points apart. Much closer than the Republicans had expected when they chose Greg Gianforte who finally apologized to Ben Jacobs saying, Last night I made a mistake and I took an action that I can't take back and I'm not proud of what happened. I should not have responded in the way that I did. And for that, I'm sorry. I should not have treated that reporter that way.

[27:47] And for that, I'm sorry, Mr. Ben Jacobs. Gianforte will still have to go before a judge to face misdemeanor assault charges. And finally, CNN reports. President Trump's son-in-law and most trusted advisor. He's very good at politics. Now a focus of the FBI's investigation into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election. Officials tell CNN the bureau is looking into a range of topics related to Kushner, a key campaign strategy, meetings held with Russian officials,

[28:18] and his relationship with now ousted national security adviser Michael Flynn. There's no indication Kushner is currently a target of the probe and no allegation of wrongdoing. Of central interest, a data analytics operation supervised by Kushner that the Trump campaign used to micro-target voters in states that were critical to the president's victory. Investigators are examining whether Russian operatives were able to piggyback on that effort to help from Trump associates either wittingly or unwittingly

[28:48] to help Russia's own alleged operation to push information online aimed at helping Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton. Kushner is also one of four Trump associates and the only current White House staffer under scrutiny for having contact with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak. During the transition, Kushner met with both Kislyak and the head of a Russian bank that is currently sanctioned by the U.S. and has close ties to Vladimir Putin. And that's today's look at what's news. I'm Nicole Sandler.

[29:19] If you appreciate these reports and the Nicole Sandler show, I hope you'll consider making a contribution. We are 100% listener-funded and we can't do it without your help. Find out more at NicoleSandler.com slash donate and have a happy memorial day. Can't afford a monthly donation? Is that what's getting you down, Bunky? But maybe you shop on Amazon.com occasionally? Well then, just use the Nicole Sandler.com Amazon portal

[29:52] and we'll get a small commission on all your purchases. But I just... Don't worry, we can't see what you bought. Just bookmark Amazon through the NicoleSandler.com portal and use it. Every purchase helps Nicole stay on the air. All right, we are back and I'm really, really excited for my next guest. Oh, and he's not there. Oh no, I hate it when this happens. All right, we're going to try one more time because John... He sent me a note with a new number. All right, let's try him again.

[30:24] We're calling John Kiriakou. Let's hope it answers this time. One ringy dingy. He was a CIA whistleblower who I believe one of the few people to be imprisoned under the Espionage Act for passing information to a reporter looks like it's ringing. I know he's expecting our call because he emailed me earlier today. Come on, John. I think we're going to try it one more time.

[30:59] Oh. What I'm guessing is maybe he's wrapping up another interview because he's got a new book out. It's called Doing Time Like a Spy. How the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison. John, are you there? Oh, now I bet you. John, are you there? Hi, yes, can you hear me? I hear you now. Sorry, that was my fault. I had you potted down. John Kiriakou, Nicole Sandler here. I do everything myself and every now and then I screw up.

[31:31] It is such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Oh no, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much for having me. Well, I've been a fan of yours for a long time. I'm from Loretto on Fire Dog Lake back when you were imprisoned. And I love your book. I'd say probably about two-thirds of the way through. And I want to talk about it. But before we get to Doing Time Like a Spy, how the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison, I'd like to spend a few minutes and talk about how you got there.

[32:03] Because your story, this is what gets me. And you know what, before we even go into that, can you explain to me and to our listeners maybe what the difference is between a whistleblower and a leaker? Oh sure. There's actually a legal definition of whistleblowing. It's bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. And leaking is just leaking. People who leak confidential or classified information

[32:34] do it for a variety of reasons. They get excited by speaking to the press, for example. They want to feel powerful. They like, during the politics, they do it for revenge against the bosses who may have passed them over for promotion. But whistleblowing is done in the public interest. It's for the public good. But sometimes leaking can be done. I mean, look at what's going on now. I don't doubt that there are people inside the White House

[33:06] who are so offended by what's going on around them that they are calling their friends in the media and giving information because it's their way to whistleblow on what's happening. I think you're probably right. And I think that's why we're seeing these unprecedented leaks from the White House. I've been in Washington since 1982. And I've been a political junkie since the 70s. And I don't ever recall these kinds of leaks

[33:37] coming out of the White House ever. And there have certainly been presidents in the past who have been obsessed with leaks, Barack Obama even. Richard Nixon was famously obsessed with leaks. But the sheer volume of leaks is unprecedented. You know what? I'm going to interrupt you because we've got a terrible connection. Can I call you back and see if we can get a better line? Because what you have to say is so important. You want to be able to hear you. Oh yes, I apologize for that. That's all right. We'll hang up and I'll call you right back.

[34:08] Okay. And keep our fingers crossed. Okay. So we're hanging up. Sorry. I got to try to get a better connection than that. Right? Fingers crossed here. Cell phones, you know. Can't live with them. Can't live without them. Okay. We know he's there. Hmm. There's something funky going on with the phones.

[34:40] All right. I'm going to hang up and dial again. Oh man. Maybe I should have just kept them, huh? This is great radio. You have reached the voicemail box. Okay. We're not going to do that. Let me try one more time. I think he's just in a bad place. And so he's having trouble getting the signal. You have reached the voicemail box.

[35:13] Oh shoot. Okay. That's not working. Hmm. All right. Well, let me dial. Give it one more second. Again, this is doing time like a spy. I think it's John's second book. He's got another one that's either coming out shortly or will be out soon called The Convenient Terrorist about Abu Zabida. And his first one was... You have reached the voicemail box of... No. Okay. Hmm. I don't even know what to do now. I should... You know what? I'm going to email him. This sounds... This is such a great radio, isn't it?

[35:43] You know what? I'm going to play the beginning of the Green News Report. And then when I get him back on the line, I'll cut it off just because... Yeah. I want time with him. Sorry about this. All right. We'll be right back. Today, May 25, 2017. That budget that Trump has presented is a grotesquely immoral budget. Trump's proposed budget cuts deeply into the environment. Mudslide buries California's iconic Pacific Coast Highway.

[36:15] Wind Farm Company proposes to retrain coal miners to be wind technicians for free, plus... The Pope's gifts, three of his encyclicals. One, including his views on climate change. Pope Francis offers a gift and a message to President Trump. All of those gifts, all of those messages straight ahead. From bradblog.com, I'm Brad Friedman. And I'm Desi Doyen. Stand by for six minutes of independent Green News, politics, analysis, and snarky comment. The National Science Foundation last year used your taxpayer money

[36:45] to fund a climate change musical. Do you think that's a waste of your money? No. I love musicals. This is your Green News Report. And people need to learn about climate change. Okay, Desi Doyen, you have been digging into Donald Trump's proposed budget. We've been speaking about how terrible it would be for the environment, but you have found

[37:16] it is even worse than that. Yes, more details are emerging. It cuts everything, non-military, deeply to finance increased defense spending and a massive tax cut for the wealthiest Americans. In addition to the 30% cut to the budget of the Environmental Protection Agency, the Trump administration proposes pushing more environmental responsibilities on to the states, but then also cuts grants to the states by nearly half for everything. From upgrading water infrastructure to... We'll try again....clean-up.

[37:46] The Great Lakes Protection Fund, which cleans up the drinking water supply for more than 20 million people, would be completely eliminated. I'm just going to stay with this and hope he picks up. I did text him and ask if he'd call us to see if maybe that'll work. I think... I know he's away, and I'm thinking that he's just not got a good connection where he's at, which really, really sucks. Oh, man, best laid plans. You have reached... Nope. And all that.

[38:16] Unbelievable. All right, I'm going to go back to this. We'll be back. Trump cuts the Supervun program by 25%. Because, of course, he does, but that's just what you say. Scott Pruitt, head of the EPA, said this on Fox News. The past administration talked a lot. This administration's actually taking steps to do things to clean up the environment. That was before the budget proposal came out. Oh, so he was lying to Fox News. Yeah. I'm sure they'll be very upset about it. The Washington Post reports the Trump administration is also drafting plans to sell off and privatize

[38:48] public assets like bridges, airports, and even highway rest stops and encourage the states to do so as well and also accelerate the environmental permitting process for new infrastructure like pipelines. Well, those highway rest stops are just there to keep people safe on the road so they have a place to rest. They're not making anybody any money that needs to be fixed. Is he doying? Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont on MSNBC called the entire budget proposal immoral and pledged to fight it in the Senate. Environmental programs will be decimated in this country.

[41:22] being prosecuted for something, it just makes me so mad. Now you were prosecuted under the Espionage Act by Barack Obama, right? That's right. That's right under Barack Obama, which a lot of people don't really realize or understand. The Espionage Act was written in 1917 to combat German saboteurs during the First World War. It was never updated. In fact, it's so antiquated that it doesn't even mention classified information.

[41:52] It calls it national defense information because when it was written, the classification system hadn't even been invented yet. And between the time that it was written and passed into law in 1817 and Barack Obama's inauguration, it was used against three Americans who had spoken to the press. But just during the Obama Administration, he used it against eight people for speaking to the press, not people who had sold secrets to foreign governments

[42:23] or who had wantedly leaked. These were eight whistleblowers trying to bring to light, like I said earlier, evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, and illegality. But he used the Espionage Act as an iron fist on whistleblowing. And that's something that people need to know. He's the first one to ever do that as well, right? That's not what the Espionage Act was written for. Yeah, he was the first one to actually use that as a policy. There were certainly presidents in the past who threatened it. Richard Nixon, for example,

[42:53] during the Pentagon paper scandal, tried to charge Daniel Ellsberg with Espionage. But because Nixon then ordered the break-in of Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office, the case fell apart and it never ended up in a courtroom. But Obama not only did it as a matter of policy, he actually bragged about it in advance of the 2012 elections. It was even on his campaign website. Wow. See, that's something that everyone should be troubled by.

[43:23] We do have freedom of the press, and we want the best government we could get. And if somebody's doing something wrong and somebody has information on it and wants to bring it to light, you should be celebrated for that, not prosecuted. And in a lot of countries whistle-blowers are. There are a lot of countries that have whistle-blower protection laws. The Canadians, the Irish, the Greeks, even the Zambians

[43:53] have a whistle-blower protection law. In the United States, we actually do have a whistle-blower protection law, so if you work at, let's say, the Department of Agriculture and you witness some behind-the-scenes shenanigans about, you know, wheat seeds or something, sure, you can blow the whistle and you're going to be celebrated and you're going to be protected. But if you work for CIA, NSA, the Homeland Security, FBI, you're probably going to go to prison

[44:23] if you decide to go public. And you work for the CIA and what you blew the whistle on was torture. Was waterboarding. It was the torture program which, in my view, was a crime. We've got the Federal Torture Act of 1946. We're signatories to the International Convention Against Torture. So it was clear to me that torture was a crime. I should say something also at this point. A lot of people ask why I didn't go through the chain of command. And I have two answers for that.

[44:53] One, my chain of command created the torture program and implemented the torture program. So going through the chain of command was a non-starter. But look at NSA whistleblower Tom Drake. He did go through the chain of command. First he went to his boss at NSA. Then he went to the General Counsel. Then he went to the Inspector General. When he didn't get the inspection there, he went to the Pentagon Inspector General. And then he went to the Congressional Oversight Committee. So never went public,

[45:23] never went to the press. Only through the chain of command. And they charged him with nine felonies including seven counts of espionage. Oh, my. And again, he's blowing the whistle on wrongdoing in the government. They think is the theory behind that that we should just let these crimes go on because they're committed by the government? Yeah, actually that is the theory. Tom's boss who was the first person he went to

[45:53] to complain about this illegal warrantless wiretapping program. Tom's boss told him, you don't have the whole story, you need to just back out of it. And Tom said, it's a violation not only of the law, but of NSA's charter. We're not allowed to spy on Americans. And as it turned out, they were practically only spying on Americans. You know, Ed Snow said back in 2014, if there hadn't been a Tom Drake, there wouldn't have been

[46:23] an Ed Snow. And he was exactly right. Tom is the one who paved the way for other national security whistleblowers not just to go ahead and blow the whistle, but he showed the rest of us that even though the costs are high, they're still worth it. And it's still in the public interest, in the public good to blow the whistle when you see a crime being committed by the government. And he was with us and you just, you spent a couple of years in federal prison

[46:53] for blowing the whistle on the U.S. torture program. You wrote about it in your newest book called Doing Time Like a Spy, How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. And I got to say, the book is great and since this is the beginning of Memorial Day weekend when people may be going to the beach, it's great beach reading because how much of that is real from, you know, becoming Jewish so you can get the kosher meals on down?

[47:23] Oh, totally, totally. We were all envious of the kosher meal. And what's crazy is, you know, the Muslims don't get a halal meal. And the only reason they don't is because the Bureau of Prisons says it's too expensive. Well, if they do it for the Jews, they really have to do it for the Muslims. It doesn't make any sense to me that they're probably illegal to discriminate against stuff like that. So tell us about the prison you were in. You didn't get to go to the country club, the camp that you thought you were going to

[47:53] be going to. They sent you to the actual minimum security prison but it wasn't the country club type camp that you thought you were going to. Right. At a minimum security work camp there are no bars on the windows. There's no concertino wires surrounding the building. The doors are unlocked. You're on your honor to not abscond. You can sort of come and go as you please. And a lot of the people at the work camp work in town. There's a small university.

[48:23] You can work as a janitor and orderly, whatever. And I thought, okay, this is going to be terrible because I'm going to be away from my wife and I have five kids. But it could be a lot worse rather. So I finally got there and when you turn yourself in you literally just knock on the door and say, hi, I'm John Kiriako. I'm here to turn myself in. And so the cop puts me through a metal detector and then he starts walking me around

[48:53] to the back of the actual prison that was across the street from the camp. And I said, no, no, there's a mistake. I'm supposed to be at the camp across the street. And he kind of chortles. He says, not according to my paperwork or not. And I told myself, take it easy. There's nothing you can do. I didn't want to make a scene because I figured I would go straight to solitary confinement. And so I just didn't say anything. And I thought, well, as soon as I can get to a phone, I'll call my lawyer.

[49:23] But it took me five days before I got access to the phone. And I called him and I said, hey, they put me in the actual prison with the murderers and the drug kingpins and the pedophiles. And he said, oh my gosh, well, there's really nothing you can do. We could file a motion, but it'll take two years before we get a hearing. And you'll be home by then. So I'm sorry, buddy, you're just going to have to tough it out. And so I toughed it out. You know, that first week I was kind of in shock.

[49:53] So I told myself not to speak to anybody, not to make any waves, just to try to get the lay of the land. And then once that initial war off, I made a decision that I was going to rely on my CIA training to get me through this thing to keep myself safe and to make sure that I remained at the top of the social heap there. So you used your CIA training, you came up with 20 rules that that basically saw you through the next two years.

[50:23] Yeah, yeah, that was it. And some of those rules were they were kind of tongue in cheek when I was at the CIA, but they became, you know, real and important when I was at Loretto. Things like admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. We have that saying on coffee mugs and t-shirts at the CIA gift shop, but that became a very important, like, life policy at Loretto. It kept me safe. And when I say

[50:53] safe, I mean safe from the guards because the guards were far more dangerous than any other prisoners were. You know, it's so funny because watching, you know, I joke about Orange is the New Black, but there were so many correlations, so many things were similar from the pecking order from the way this prison is segregated. Talk about the different groups that were there. Oh, yeah, you know, segregation was probably the thing that hit me first. It was like walking into 1950s

[51:23] America. All the African Americans sit with African Americans in the cafeteria and in the TV room, or the day room they call it. They tend to live in the same cells, first cubicles, same with the Hispanics, same with the whites, and then pedophiles are separately segregated. So even the TVs, I mean, each TV room has either four TVs or six TVs, three belong to the Hispanics,

[51:53] three belong to the blacks, so apparently there was a race ride in the 90s in which the whites lost, and so they lost ownership, so to speak, of their televisions. But it doesn't matter if you're educated or a professional, if you're a black, I'll give you an example, Jeffrey Sterling, an African American CIA officer who's in prison now in Englewood, Colorado. The guy's

[52:23] attorney, he's a fluent Farsi speaker, he was the top-rated fraud investigator in the state of Missouri, but he fell afoul of Barack Obama's Espionage Act and got three and a half years in prison. But his wife told me that just because he's black, he's not allowed to socialize with whites, he's not allowed to watch TV with whites, he's not allowed to eat with whites, even though he's, you know, highly educated

[52:53] and there are other highly educated white guys there who otherwise would probably love to have a friendly relationship with Jeffrey Sterling. It's just so bizarre. It was unlike anything I had ever encountered before in life. That is wild, and you wound up for a while with the white Aryans. Yeah. You know, when I was being processed in, the only thing that the cops said to me, besides, you know, the camera, stand up straight, sit there, the only thing he said to me was

[53:23] if someone walks into your cell uninvited, that's an act of aggression and I thought, great, I've been here 40 minutes and I'm going to get my butt kicked. So I get to my cell, I'm there about two hours and sure enough two neo-Nazis walk right into the cell. One had an enormous swastika that took up the whole front half of his neck and I jumped up and I put my hands up and I shouted, what do you want? I tried to sound as tough as I could and the one

[53:53] with the swastika said, take it easy are you the new guy? And I said, yeah, so. And he said are you a fag? And I said no. Are you a rat? And I said no, I didn't have anybody else in my case. Are you a chomo? And I said I don't know what that word means. And he just says chomo child molester. I said no, I'm not a child molester. And he says, okay, then you could sit with the Aryans in the cafeteria. And I thought, oh great.

[54:23] So I guess I'm with the Aryans now. And you know, the Aryan table was quite large. At the one end they had these hardcore Nazis. And as as you went down the table, they became less and less Nazi. So by the time you get to the end the far end of the table, it was pretty much just white guys who were not child molesters or rats. And that's where I was until one of the Italians who was a captain in the Banana Crime family stopped

[54:53] me in the hall and said, hey, let me ask you a question. He said why do you sit with those Nazi retards in the cafeteria? I said, I don't know, my first day here they told me to sit with them. And very dramatically he put this finger up in the air and he says, from today you're with the Italian. And I said, okay, thanks. So from there I was with the Italian and it worked out just beautifully. They became really my closest friends. It's a great story. And again, the characters, we learn about

[55:23] so many of the people there. It wasn't all, you know, it wasn't as easy going as Orange is the New Black. There was some real danger there. Like when people found out you were with the CIA what was the reaction? You know, that's the only thing that actually brightened me before I got there. And it worked out so nicely. There was one Italian guy who became my best friend. He was from Philadelphia and he had read about my case

[55:53] in the New York Times. So he saw about a week before I got there that I was going to be assigned to Loretto. And he took it upon himself just to be a nice guy to go around to all of the Italians. And when I say Italians, I mean we had the boss of the Gambino family we had the underboss of the De Calvicante we had the boss of the port of Newark from the Genevieve family. I mean, these are serious hardcore made guys from the five families. And he went to each one of them

[56:23] and explained to them the difference between a CIA officer and an FBI agent. He said an FBI agent is a cop and a rat. A CIA officer works overseas to keep us safe from terrorists. And so once each of those guys understood that I did not have a badge I did not have arrest powers I wasn't working with the FBI and indeed I even wrote in one of the letters to Loretto once they realized that I hated the FBI as much as they did

[56:53] they welcomed me with open arms and I ended up being invited to every Italian dinner and Italian party we exercised in the yard we worked together I even went to church with this Genevieve made man he was a hardcore mafia captain and he went to church every single Sunday he was very religious Did you wind up with any tattoos?

[57:23] Oh my God, no and let me tell you there was great pressure to get a tattoo I don't want to souvenir this place I want to forget I was ever here No, no, you should get some barbed wire around your arm I said get out of here You go get the barbed wire around your arm I'm going home and cast Oh my God We're getting to the end of the hour I know you're at the airport John Kiriako, I got to ask you you have the first book was the reluctant spy

[57:53] my secret life in the CIA's war on terror which tells about what got you into prison then of course the new one you need to survive and thrive in prison and I'll put links to all of these up on my blog at NicoleSandler.com but there's another one, the convenient terrorist Abu Zabida in the weird wonderland of America's secret wars I know all about Abu Zabida because Jason Leopold is a dear, dear friend of mine Is this book out already or is this coming out? No, it's coming out June the 26th it's being published by Sky Horse

[58:23] in New York and the reviews have been terrific so far wonderful blurbs from the likes of Robert F. Kennedy Jr and Oliver Stone and a whole bunch of professors of international affairs so I think this is going to be a well-regarded book and to tell you the truth, even though it's been just over 15 years since we caught Abu Zabida nobody's ever written a book about him so we decided that we would I did half the book where I talk about

[58:53] the hunt for Abu Zabida and his capture and his torture and then Joe Hickman, my co-author was the guard at Guantanamo who took custody of Abu Zabida from the CIA so we think we have all the bases covered with this one Well, we'll look forward to that one John Curiacu flies safely home and hopefully we'll talk again soon in half a quieter, longer, more laid back conversation Thanks very much, I look forward to that very much Thank you so much, it was great talking with you My pleasure, take care

[59:23] Bye bye, John Curiacu I just wanted a nice clean ending for progressive voices because I leave them hanging every day where it's like I'm cut off it's hard doing this network thing because we don't know exactly there's like no clock that keeps us in exact sync so I don't know exactly when they end and I always get cut off in mid-word so hopefully that ended cleanly for them

[59:54] This is a three-day weekend we've got Memorial Day, did you finish high school? Yay, my daughter is a high school graduate Yay, it's Sallison Alright, so we're going to go celebrate Have a wonderful weekend everyone I don't think there's going to be a music Monday show so figure we'll be back here Tuesday with Gotta Laugh Have a great weekend, go pick up the book Doing Time Like a Spy How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison It really is, really is good beach reading and don't forget

[1:00:24] don't let up There's so much working against us I'm going to post that Dear Spiegel editorial on my website on the blog as well with today's show so read it and share it Have a great weekend, thanks for listening See you Tuesday
