Title: CIA Whistleblower Exposes Black Sites, Epstein Secrets & Bin Laden
Show: Gold Shields
Date: 2025-07-25
URL: https://youtu.be/eyQimLepfL0
Duration: 1:28:00

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[00:01] As active as well as retired police officers, we all know that you can buy gear from a lot of different places, especially online. But I want to remind you of the importance of supporting companies that support law enforcement. And I don't know a company that fits the bill more than goals. Their motto is proud to serve those who serve, which they do every single day. and they walk the talk by supporting dozens of public safety focused organizations like Gold Shields. So when you are looking for

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[01:06] Welcome to Gold Shields. Join NYPD veterans Tom Smith and Dan Murphy. With over 50 years of combined experience chasing drug lords, dismantling cartels, and hunting terrorists, now they pull back the curtain, sharing raw, unfiltered stories from the front lines and the heroes who stood beside them. No topics off limits. This is real. This is true crime. This is Gold Shields.

[01:36] Hey, welcome back to another edition of Gold Shields. This is Dan Murphy along with my partner in crime, Tom Smith. How are you, buddy? >> I'm doing good, man. Uh, you know, like I just mentioned, this is this is one of our Christmas list guys. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> Very lucky to have him on. Very lucky. >> Yeah, very lucky. No doubt about it. You know, uh, just real quick before we get to this special guest that we have, you know, just always thanking our premier sponsor, Goals. Uh, goals.com, tacticalgeear.com. big part of our show,

[02:08] big part of our family, not even just what they do for Gold Shields, what they do for law enforcement around this country. I mean, you want a supporter, goals is it that's who you want in your corner. And Mike Fatten and his whole team are the best at not not only just supplying great equipment and uniforms, but the support that they show law enforcement is next to none, man. Next to none. They're the >> top shelf people. But we're very proud to be affiliated with them, align with them, and looking forward to more stuff in the future. Hint hint. We'll leave it

[02:40] at that. But they're great, great folks. >> Yep. No doubt about it. >> Tom, tell tell us about our guest this morning. Without further ado, we have a lot of people we could thank, but let's get to this gentleman. He is one busy man. >> You know what, John Kiryaku is was on the Christmas list of Gold Shields. If anyone knows him, you could understand how difficult it was to get him. and honored that we have him. I could sit here and try to go through a resume or

[03:10] accolades or anything and that's going to be silly to do. uh he's just so well known and on every show that's out there. But not only just on a show, which any of us can do and all of us have been on, but the expertise he brings to a show and his knowledge and what he's done and gone through in his career is what makes him what he is. And we're so thrilled and honored to have John on the show today. John, welcome to

[03:40] Gold Shields. And thank you so much. >> Thank you both. And I've got to start off by saying first of all I did not know that Gauls was a sponsor of your show. Secondly, I mention Gauls all the time because on my very first day in Pakistan, the station chief told me to come up with a standard operating procedure for taking down a terrorist safe house. So I wrote this long list of things. you know, I put 0200 at the top of the paper

[04:11] and I need battering rams and I need, you know, ammunition and I need night vision goggles and I need handcuffs and this that the other thing. And um I went back to the office and I said, I got to I got to cable headquarters, tell them I need all this stuff. And one of the old-timers in the office said, "Oh, headquarters doesn't keep any of that stuff." Uh you know, cuz we're not law enforcement, right? But this immediate post 911 uh situation was unlike anything we had

[04:42] ever experienced before. I said, "What do I do?" The old-timer said, "You go to this website, galls.com. They have everything." So, I go down into the basement of the American embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan. I go, "Gaul.com." I said, "Oh my god, they have everything." I ordered $50,000 worth of equipment. I put it on my CIA credit card. They sent it to the State Department who put it in a diplomatic pouch. And I'm telling you, I had it

[05:13] less than a week later. >> Wow. >> It changed the course. I'm not overstating this. It changed the course of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after 9/11. >> Unbelievable. >> Thank you, Gauls. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Oh, where do I even go with that? Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. It's been a nice day. >> Say it to John. Thanks so much for Mike and we're good. >> Well, that that that's a great ringing endorsement. But let's move on to you, John. You know, we're very thrilled to have you on the show. You are a very

[05:44] interesting human being who've had an incredible career. Um, sometimes we talk with our guests about how did you get into the CIA. Forget that stuff. Let's get to what you want to talk about about your career, your experiences, and you know, we have a lot of stuff going on right now, high-profile stuff that touched in your area to say the least. So tell us a little bit about your time in that agency, what you can talk about. >> Sure. So the first seven years, seven and a half years that I was at the agency, I was in analysis, the director

[06:14] of intelligence, you know, thinking the big thoughts, writing papers that probably nobody was reading. Uh, but I worked exclusively on Iraq and Kuwait. And I was I was in an office that no longer exists. It was called the Office of Leadership Analysis. And um so I was Saddam Hussein's classified psychological profiler and I did that for years. I took a break in the middle to go to Bahrain on rotation to the state department where I was the head of

[06:45] the economic section at the American embassy in Manama again doing Iraqi sanctions issues. Went back to headquarters again on Iraq but by then as a senior analyst and I got very bored. It was just Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, all the time, every day, all day long. And then we do a no-fly zone, and then they violate the no-fly zone, then we do sanctions, and then they violate the sanctions. It's like, I got to do something. There has to be more to life than this. So, I made a very

[07:16] unusual uh change. And I was able to do it only because I was the only person in the entire CIA who spoke both Arabic and Greek. So I switched to counterterrorism operations in the directorate of operations, the DCI counterterrorism center and I went to Greece as the uh as the counterterrorism uh operations uh officer working against primarily against two groups, revolutionary

[07:48] organization 17 November and uh popular revolutionary struggle. But the Arab groups were all represented in Athens. Everybody from Abu Nidal to PFLP, PFLPGC, DFLP, the Libyans, the Iraqis, everybody was in Athens, everybody. um did that for a couple of years, went back to headquarters briefly, and then I transitioned into a a leadership

[08:19] position where I was uh teaching uh uh Middle Eastern intelligence services how to carry out counterterrorism raids on safe houses. Then 9/11 hit. I went out to Islamabad as the chief of counterterrorism operations for the CIA and um we had a lot of highlevel captures, HVTs, high value targets, Abu Zuba being the highest and then I went back to

[08:51] headquarters briefly as the chief of counter inelligence in Alex station, the Issama bin Laden group. But because the Abubeta capture was so fresh, it was such a big deal. He was the first HVT that we caught. I got promoted and became the executive assistant to the deputy director for operation. And then I finished out my career as the counterterrorism officer at the United Nations Security Council in New York and then went into the private sector. Later

[09:23] on, I became the chief investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. But that sounds way better than it actually was. All right. So, that was your resume. Thanks for coming, John. Appreciate this show and uh uh you know what I mean? Obviously, the the the one part that that we want to touch on is, you know, pre 911, you know, I I remember before 9/11

[09:53] on one of the news shows, Night Line, whatever it was back then, you heard about this guy Osama bin Laden, and it was an interview like John Miller did it, you know, and it was like, all right, here's a guy living in a cave. He, you know, everyone's saying he's a bad guy. Okay. What was the read if you can, you know, to to what you can talk about. What was the read of him before anyone really knew about >> Oh, that's a great question. And you know what? That's a question that I've always wanted to talk about and nobody has ever asked me. Okay, so it's 19 it's

[10:28] 1990, right? 1990. I'm in the office of leadership analysis. I sit next to this awesome guy and um he's the Saudi analyst. And we used to have this little in-house magazine. I don't even remember the name of it. Like for for those those analysts who were junior and weren't working on countries where you could get anything published. Like if you're working on, you know, Kiraabati or however you pronounce that country. Um yeah, the president doesn't give a [ __ ]

[10:59] about Kiraabati. So if you want to get promoted, you got to publish. They used to say publish or parish. So, we had this in-house magazine that you could publish, you know, and say, 'Well, I I got into the It was called the Leadership Review. I got into the Leadership Review. Okay, so this guy next to me, I won't give you his name, but he's an awesome guy, great analyst. July 1990, he writes an article about Osama bin Laden, and he calls him potentially the most dangerous man in the world.

[11:33] And I read it. They used to send copies around all over the office. I read it and I was like, who? I mean, I knew the Bin Laden family. My first tour was in not tour. Yeah, it was tour was in Saudi Arabia. The Bin Laden family was enormous and very very honorable, right? I mean, half of them have houses here in the States. And um he said, "No, dude. This guy's this guy's unhinged. He's a bad one." And I was like, okay. Fast forward then

[12:06] to to 1997. They've done away with the office of leadership analysis and we all got merged into the office of near eastern and south Asian analysis. And the branch that I was in um that included Iraq and the Gulf States were asked to give a briefing to this to the brand new office director who didn't know anything about the Middle East. And he says just out loud, not sure,

[12:36] he's not sure which analyst to address. He says, and I I'll never forget the way he the way he said it. He says, "You bin Lein. Why should I care about this guy?" And then the analyst says, "It's it's actually Osama bin Laden, and I think you should care very much about this guy." And then he launched into his briefing. And I said to him, "Is this the same guy from seven years ago?" And he said, "Yeah." He said,

[13:08] "This guy is bad with a capital B and it's going to cost us if we don't pay attention to him." And then sure enough, you know, the rest is history. But my friend Mike was watching UBL for 11 years before 9/11 and he was trying to warn people in writing people in positions of great authority and people are like who's this poor little rich kid Osama bin Laden? You mean the

[13:41] brother of the guy from Beverly Hills? Right. And then you say, well, yeah, but the old man Abd Rahman bin Laden, he had 114 sons, and you know, one of them's bound to be a bad seed, right? You have 114 sons and anotherund and something daughters. >> He's a busy guy. Wow. >> Yeah, he was a busy guy. >> Oh, to say the least. >> That's why he need he needed those billions of dollars just to feed all those mouths he created.

[14:14] So, Bin Laden, he grows in stature through the years, but there um you know, Lieutenant Colonel Robert Patterson wrote the book Dereliction of Duty, if you if you know him or aware book. >> Yeah. And he writes in it about the opportunities we had to take him out during the Clinton administration. >> Yes. Yes. >> Well, he carried the football for the president. >> Yes. >> And those are shocking allegations that we had the chance to stop him dead in his tracks. military intelligence times, >> right? >> Multiple times. >> Dan, listen to how quaint that is,

[14:47] >> right? So, of course, the CIA is tracking Bin Laden everywhere. Every time he gets on a plane, every time he's in a caravan, we're tracking him. NSA, same thing. They have his phone. They're watching him. He moves six feet. You know, they write a report. He moves six feet to the right. You know, that kind of thing. I'm exaggerating, of course. So, we go to we go to the White House and say, "We got him. We have an exact location. We need to snatch him." And

[15:18] here's the quaint part. President Clinton says, "Has he been indicted?" We're like, "Indicted? Clear and present danger is the term. The CIA doesn't care about indictments, right? give us permission to snatch him or kill him. Well, he hasn't he hasn't been charged with violating the law. And so they let him go. Then he is expelled

[15:48] from Sudan. He's on his way to Afghanistan. How do you get to Afghanistan? Believe it or not, you get there like everybody else. You go to the airport, you check your luggage, you go through the security, and you get on the plane and fly Afghanistan. So he's in the transit lounge at Doha airport and NSA is like he's in the transit lounge at Doha airport and we run to the White House. We got to get him. So we call the gutteries say grab him for us. He's in the transit lounge.

[16:18] The gutteries say has he been indicted? And we say no, he hasn't been indicted. Well, what the [ __ ] is the Justice Department doing all those years of the Clinton administration? I mean, we had the intelligence. You can seal the intelligence. You can seal the indictment. National security information is in sealed indictments all the time. But they just never really got around to it. And so the gutteries were like, listen, you know, rule of law,

[16:49] international uh uh treaties, if if there are no criminal charges pending against this guy, we have to let him get on the plane. And so he got away again. Again. >> That is shocking. That is shocking. >> Sickening. >> And And you know what? You know what's more and this is it's a great story. It's a great insight into what happened. And here's why. You had so many reports and so many talk shows, whatever it was about the quote unquote failures

[17:22] before 911 of the bureau, the agency, and all that. But hey everyone, failure weren't there. Failure was above them. Failure could have been avoided with one person saying, "Yeah, go get them." >> Leadership. That's the definition of leadership. >> Yes. Exactly right. The buck has to stop somewhere. And you know, like the old saying goes, the fish rots from the head down. Somebody make a make a call. You know, indict this guy. At the very

[17:52] least, indict him for conspiracy. by then 911 wouldn't have happened. >> I didn't take the three months it would have taken to read and really digest the 911 report, but I watched some of the hearings, which is to say, I'm vaguely familiar with with the overall stance of the commission. Um, they seem to beat everybody up, but they didn't beat the president up, did they? They sure didn't beat up the rank the office of the president or anybody in his cabinet. >> No, that's either president. And you know just to give just to give you an indication of

[18:24] the of the abject failure of the 911 commission too. The these are supposed to be the best and brightest right some of the greatest leaders that our country has the the deepest thinkers the greatest analysts the most accomplished investigators. But they were not permitted to interview anybody from the CIA and they were not permitted to interview anybody at Guantanamo. So they never got the full story. Never. They weren't permitted to get the full

[18:55] story. >> No, they weren't. That's for sure. You know, and that's why, you know, you know, all of us who were you much more than and then Dan and I didn't and I later later on, but those of us who were involved in that and the aftermath of the 911 commission knew the circus and farce that it was. >> Oh my god. >> We all knew it. You have to compare it to like the Warren Commission, you know, where where the the the Fox was in charge of the hen

[19:26] house. It was the same thing with the 9/11 commission. You know, I remember the the president making the uh the appointments and people were saying, "Oh my god, Lee Hamilton. Oh, he's he's so highly respected and on both sides of the aisle and he knows so much about the Middle East and he's he was chairman of the House Foreign uh Foreign Affairs Committee." Yeah, all that's true, but if you don't permit the man to actually collect the information, then how do you expect to be able to to respect the conclusion?

[19:58] Yeah, they spent a lot of time beating up uh Giuliani and Bernie Carrick over radios. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Inter interoperability of radios. That's the cattle's already out of the barn, guys. >> Exactly. Exactly. I I lived in Arlington, Virginia. Of course, the Pentagon is is located in Arlington. And as soon as that came out, Dan, people were saying, "Oh my god, look at the criticisms of Bernie Carrick and and Giuliani. We better get our radios all on the same frequency." It's like that's what you guys are worried about right

[20:29] off the bat. That's the most important thing is you need new radios. Like that's going to prevent the next terrorist attack. >> And John, let me tell you, us being involved in that, that was leg that was true. That was all they cared about. >> Yeah. you know, get all right, we need to coordinate this and where where a a you know, uh emergency spot's going to be and where, you know, a command center is going to be that we could be say all that nonsense >> instead of what actually was the failure. >> Yeah.

[20:59] >> Of this. >> When I got back from the Abuza uh capture, um the director uh George Tennant was the director at the time. He asked me to go to NSA. We were under orders not to talk to anybody about any aspect of the Abu Beta capture. It was so highly classified, so compartmentalized that even inside the CIA, we weren't allowed to talk about it. So George told me to go to NSA. He said they want to do a hot. I said,

[21:29] "Okay." I drive all the freaking way over to Fort Me. It's like an hour and 15 minutes away. And um >> when it comes to the safety of law enforcement, first responders, and military personnel, every moment counts, especially in the dark. Streamlight provides the reliable, high-performance lighting solutions that these heroes trust in the most dangerous situations. Whether it's a car stop, navigating dark alleyways, or exploring abandoned

[28:15] illegal. In fact, I said to a colleague who was also asked if he wanted to be trained. I said, "Man, this is wrong, wrong, wrong. This is exactly what we accused the Japanese and the Germans of doing after the Second World War. I mean, look at the Nermberg transcripts, right? We talk about exactly these same techniques that that the Japanese used against our our men. We executed those Japanese soldiers

[28:48] who had waterboarded American P. I said this is just wrong. So I I declined and um there were 14 people that were approached, 13 accepted. They went through the the reverse sear training and then they went out to the secret site and began torturing well started with torturing opposed. They tortured many many other prisoners too. And in fact they they murdered some of these prisoners because you know there are no there are no

[29:20] constraints on what you do. Not there in the room as it's happening. And then what happens when you kill somebody? You dig a hole outside the uh outside the the building. You put him in the hole and you cover it up and then you say to headquarters, "H, sorry, but uh you know, he appears to have had a heart attack during interrogation." I said, "That's just wrong. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong." And then, and this is an important point, by then, I had been promoted. So, I'm I'm

[29:52] I'm the executive assistant to the deputy director, and I'm seeing cables from all over the world. In that position, you see literally everything that the CIA is doing around the world and these cables are coming in from the secret prison and they're like, "This is not what I signed up for. This is illegal. I want to I want to curtail my position and come home." That is a careerending decision to curtail a position and return home. One secretary fainted

[30:22] while she was watching a torture session. We had doctors from the office of medical services saying, "I took a hypocratic oath to do no harm, and you want me to be in there to revive him so you can torture him more? I quit." You know, and I thought, "Well, clearly I'm not the only person who believes that this is illegal and immoral, so somebody's going to say something." And then nobody did. Nobody did. And so finally I did

[30:53] in 2007. I had already left the CIA and uh and finally I said it and then all hell broke loose. >> Wow. Uh so really quick on top of the fact that it is illegal, immoral, and just really not what America stands for. >> Exactly. >> But at another level is right. >> It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, when when I in in 2015, I was

[31:25] hired by the APA, the American Psychological Association, to help them come up with with a list that we ended up calling the Brookline Protocols, a list of rules that had to be followed for APA member psychologists to participate in um national security interrogation, things that you can do and can't do. And the bottom line was, ethics aside,

[31:56] even legalities aside, these rough techniques, torture, enhanced interrogation, whatever you want to call them, they just simply don't work. Now, eventually the the guy is going to tell you the truth eventually, but the truth is mixed in with so much nonsense that then you have to devote a team of analysts to clear through all this garbage to pull out what might be true from what

[32:28] might not be true. And by then, the next attack has already taken place. you know, the next cell has already moved. It just doesn't work. Listen, I've said this also before. It's like a kick in the gut for me to compliment the FBI. I hate the FBI. But if there's one thing they are really good at, it's interrogations. And the way they do it,

[32:58] the right way to do it is to establish a rapport with your prisoner, to treat the prisoner with respect, and engage him in a conversation. And you know, it might take days or weeks, it might even take months, but eventually he's going to tell you what you want to know. That's the way to do an interrogation, >> right? And and you know what? We've all been in situations where information and intel is vital and the time frame that

[33:30] you need it is vital. But the age all line there is a line that you do not cross. Being in the United States and being this country that we are, you don't cross that line. On top of the fact, like you just said, John, and Dan, you mentioned it too. It doesn't work. you know, we've been involved in. And I always looked at it as same game, different crime. Terrorism. Yes. I broken guys for robbery patterns. Same

[34:01] thing. >> See, >> Dan is Dan has broken guys for kidnapping cases. Same thing. Just different level of bad guy. >> Yes. >> But we all we were all successful. We got what we wanted. And like you said, John, it may take a little while, but that's part of this. Sometimes it does take a little while, but it's the right thing to do because >> everything everything after that gets muddied. >> Yeah. >> No one trusts anyone anymore. It's over. >> The level of trust that you need is gone.

[34:31] >> Khalid Shik Muhammad was now infamously waterboarded 187 times in addition to undergoing all different other kinds of torture. And KSM was an incredibly bad guy. He was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, bonafide terrorist, the blood of 3,000 Americans on his hands. But at the end of his torture, he had also confessed to murdering Daniel Pearl, who was a journalist for the uh for the Wall

[35:03] Street Journal. Dan came to the embassy in 2002. Tommy McCale, who was a a detective for the Port Authority of New York, New Jersey, and was on loan to the >> We know Tommy. >> One of my people in the world. Oh, no kidding. >> I know him 30 years. >> Oh my god. I'm proud to call him a friend. >> He So, >> so Tommy calls me and he says, "Hey, this reporter's coming in today. Do you want to talk to him?" And I said, "Yeah, I'll come down." So Tommy and I, we met

[35:36] him downstairs. We took him out to the uh to the walk-in room which was just outside the hardline and Tommy said, "This is a big big mistake." He told him, "This is a big mistake to go meet this terrorist to interview him." He said, "No, I've been working on this guy for 6 months. We've exchanged 50 emails. It took me all this time to finally get him to trust me." And I said, "I wouldn't do it. There's literally nobody who can protect you. You don't know who these guys are. They're all murderers,

[36:07] you know. Tommy practically begged Daniel Pearl not to go to this meeting. And then he went anyway. And then later on they found his head in one part of town and they found his body in the other part of town. So, so at the end of his torture, Khaled Khalik Muhammad confessed to murdering Daniel Pearl. And we knew that he hadn't murdered Daniel Pearl. We knew who had murdered Daniel Pearl. the Pakistanis had caught him. But KSM didn't know that the

[36:38] Pakistanis had caught him. And the guy confessed and, you know, walked them through how he did it. And all KSM could say, and he kept repeating it, was in the video where they're hacking off Daniel Pearl's head, the arm holding the meat cleaver was very hairy. And KSM is like a gorilla. He's covered in hair. And he said, "You see that's my arm. You see how hairy the arm is? That's my arm." were like, "Dude, we know that you didn't kill Daniel Pearl." But he was so broken from

[37:10] the torture that he was just telling the CIA anything that he thought they might want to hear just to get them to stop torturing him. Well, that doesn't that's not helpful in any way. If anything, it's unhelpful because it forces you to divert resources to run down these these rabbit holes where there's nothing at the end, right? There was no truth to the to the matter.

[37:42] >> Yeah. You know, >> this is this is the kind of stuff you haven't heard. Go ahead. >> No, I that's what I was going to say. That's why, you know, that's why when I said before about the expertise and and the backstory of so much, you know, we we say it all the time that our show is like the backstage pass to certain stories. Well, this is it, everybody. There there isn't a a bigger behind the curtain than than what we're hearing right now. But it's all necessary. It all needs to be said and out there. Why?

[38:13] Cuz down the line, it makes us better. Cuz we'll be better for it. And we have to be because we're the United States and we have to do things right. >> Amen. I have been saying that for decades. For decades. You know, listen. At the 1984 Republican convention, you guys are probably a little maybe too young, but the 1984 >> Oh, no. No. >> No. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. >> Good. I was a cop in 1984. >> Yeah. Okay. >> All right. I'm an old man. I'm an old man.

[38:43] >> Yeah. Me, too. I'm an old man. Look at my hair. Look, I I got to start doing the comb over pretty soon. >> You should do what I do. Just mullet. >> Even taking my hat off, so I'd finish the conversation. >> I just told my girlfriend yesterday, I think I need to start wearing hats. >> Yeah. 1984 Republican convention, Ronald Reagan gives this acceptance speech that has become legendary among political speeches in which he said that the United States is a shining city on a hill. Right? And that's what they called it, the shining city on a hill speech.

[39:16] Whether you like or dislike Ronald Reagan, we are a shining city on a hill for billions of people, we should be the leader on human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. You know, when we go around the world in every country with which we have diplomatic relations every year and we tell them, "We're writing the annual human rights report and I'm going to document A, B, and C."

[39:46] We know that they take that seriously. So, we should, you know, I say all the time, if I'm a if I'm a I was the I was the human rights officer at the American Embassy in Bahrain for two years, 1994 and 1995. And I would go to the Minister of Interior and I'd say, "Your Highness, you cannot pick up a 15-year-old kid off the street and beat him to death because he marched in a pro-democracy demonstration. You can't do that. I have

[40:19] to report that to to State Department and then they're going to tell Congress and you're going to lose your your right to purchase American military hardware, right? Really? Because then what happens when the CIA guy goes in and says, "Don't listen to the human rights guy. We want you to open a secret prison here and we're going to torture people." Or better yet, you torture them and then you just give us a transcript of what they say and we'll give you $10 million

[40:50] in cash. Totally untraceable. Who's he going to listen to? Is he going to listen to John who's yelling at him for beating his 15-year-old to death, which actually happened? or is he going to listen to the guy with a big suitcase full of money? So, either we're going to be that shining city on a hill or we're not. And if we're not, okay, let's have a national conversation about that. But we can't be both. Or we can't be one and pretend to be the other. It's not tenable.

[41:21] >> So, let me let me let me ask you a question if you don't mind to unravel this. Everything has its root or its genesis or its purpose or motivation. Why was this program in place? Now, there's probably a million different ideas about it, right? Say >> there's one overriding reason. >> Yeah, but a patriotism, revenge, we were pissed off. >> Political career careers. I mean, >> that's another one, >> right? Who wants to look good? Which agency wants to be the first to get the hot intel? I mean, >> tell us what your personal Yeah.

[41:53] >> Yeah. All of the above, Dan. That's that's really quite a a comprehensive list right there. So number one was revenge. 9/11 was the greatest intelligence failure in American history, right? I said at the beginning of the of the podcast, the buck has to stop somewhere, right? And the CIA was asleep at the switch. And because of that, 3,000 Americans, innocent Americans, lost their lives that day. So number one, revenge.

[42:24] Um, but all the rest of it, careerism was another one. I mean, Kofford Black, I liked and respected Kofheer Black. He was the the uh director of the counterterrorism center. And um, to his credit, Kofheer was screaming from the rooftops that something terrible was going to happen. And at the White House, they just didn't want to hear it. They weren't interested. Especially Condisa Rice. Oh my god. Talk about being unqualified for a position. She was in completely over her head. So

[42:57] she she would tell Kofheer and George and Dick Clark who was the counterterrorism ZAR at the time, you guys are wrong. It's not this little band of Arabs that we need to be worried about. It's China. China is the enemy. And we're like, China? When was the last time China blew up a Navy vessel, you know, or or attacked American American embassies and and blew them up until they collapsed? So Kofheer, you know, by by some accounts,

[43:32] people wanted Kofheer's head because he was the head of counterterrorism and there were no penetrations of al-Qaeda. And so, you know, the book has to stop somewhere. Kofheer got promoted and became ambassador Kofheer Black, the special envoy for counterterrorism. Uh, what about uh what about George Tenant? George wasn't fired for 9/11. George actually remained on for another 5 years and then launched the Iraq war,

[44:04] which was also based on on false uh intelligence. If you look at any of these people that that should have that should have had their careers sacrificed for falling down on 9/11, every one of them was promoted and then every last one of them went on to a multi-million dollar book deal. Every one of them. >> Wow. And that, you know, they they and we all, you know, us in that world, you

[44:36] know, again, you more than us, but kind of knew all that nonsense that was going on and what they got out of it and promotions and which always seemed to be the thing. You screw it up, you got promoted, you know, cuz it was it was easier. Yeah. >> It was easier than having to answer for something or moving someone out of somewhere. You just promoted them. You moved them somewhere. No one really knew where they were anymore. and no one asked anymore. >> And let me add something too. Um I was in the counterterrorism center

[45:07] on the morning that the um embassy bombings, the Africa embassy bombings took place. And so I come out of my office. Yeah. There there are TVs hanging down from the ceiling all over the place, right? All on different networks from around the world. So I come out of my office. There's a a colleague there staying there and she's watching the TV and you know it's this smoking rubble from our two embassies in Africa. And I said uh I said they hit embassies

[45:39] now. And she said yeah they destroyed them both. And I said uh huh let's see who loses his head over this. And she said let's see who gets promoted over this. And that's what happened. That's that's disgusting and shameful, but that's the DC way, isn't it? >> It is. You fail upward. >> So, let's go back really quick. I'm sorry, Tom. You were going to ask something. No, no, no, no. Go ahead. >> I was say 2007, you come forward and you

[46:13] whistleblow. What can you tell us about that experience? And it had to be a very trying thing to do. Yeah, I I wish that I could tell you that I did it because I had such closely held feelings that I just couldn't take it anymore. And so I grabbed the bull by the horns and I went out there and that wasn't it at all. I kept waiting for somebody to come out and say something.

[46:43] And then finally in December of 2007, Brian Ross called me from ABC News and Brian said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubeda. I said that was absolutely untrue. I was the only person who was kind to Abu Zuba. And Brian said, "Well, you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself." I didn't know that was an old reporter's trick because I had never met a reporter before. I had never spoken to a reporter. I said, "I'll think about it."

[47:15] That was a Monday. On Wednesday, President Bush gives this press conference in which he looks at the camera and says, "We do not torture." And I said to my wife, my wife was a senior CIA officer at the time. I said, "He's a bald-faced liar. He's just looking the American people in the eye and he's lying to us." And I thought, "Well, that's Washington. Two days later, it's Friday, and Bush walks out of the south portico of the

[47:46] White House, and he's walking toward the helicopter to go to Camp David for the weekend, and a reporter shouts a question at him, and he stops and turns and he says, "Well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer." And I said to my wife, Brian Ross's source is at the White House, and they're going to try to pin this on me. So I called Brian Ross and I said, "I'll give you your interview." The interview was the following week. I think it was a Tuesday. And I decided in the interim

[48:18] that whatever he asked me, I was just going to tell the truth. And so that's what ended up happening. I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. I said that torture was official policy. And I said that the policy had been personally approved by the president. and tell everyone the ramifications of that. >> Yeah. Well, that's where it gets even more Washingtonesque. Um, the very next day, the CIA filed

[48:48] what's called a crimes report against me, saying that I had revealed classified information. So, the FBI started investigating me from December of 2007 to December of 2008. And then in December of 2008, they sent my attorneys a declination letter declining to prosecute me. They said that torture was a crime. And this goes to the very heart of the

[49:18] disagreement between the CIA and the FBI. They said torture was a crime and it is a felony in the United States to classify a criminal act. Right. Interesting. So they declined to prosecute me. Three weeks later, Barack Obama becomes president. John Brennan becomes the deputy national security adviser for counterterrorism. Brennan asks the Justice Department to

[49:49] secretly reopen the case against me. I had no idea that for the next 3 years my phones were tapped, my emails were being intercepted, and teams of FBI agents were performing surveillance on me. 3 years. And then in January of 2012, I was arrested and charged with five felonies, including three counts of espionage. And then the fight was on to save myself.

[50:21] They charge you with espionage. Well, what what was the substance of these charges? Yeah. What did they throw up there? This I want to hear. >> This was kind of a novel use of the Espionage Act. And I will say a couple of things about this. The Espionage Act was written in 1917 to combat German saboturs during the First World War. Between 1917

[50:51] and Barack Obama's inauguration in 2009, three Americans were charged with espionage for speaking to the media. Three. Just during Obama, nine people were charged with espionage for speaking to the media. Three times all previous presidents combined. That was John Brennan. John Brandon had a Nixonian obsession with national security leaks

[51:22] and he convinced Obama to go after every one of the whistleblowers. Listen, nobody objects, nobody should object to espionage charges against somebody who's working for a foreign power, working for a terrorist group, you know, whatever. But in my case, my case actually set a legal precedent. Um, our argument was telling the truth to ABC News

[51:53] and having lunch with the New York Times is not espionage. It's constitutionally protective free speech. My judge, and this was what the president was, said that she would not respect decisions made in other federal district courts that she would not respect any precedent indicating that a person should be charged with espionage only

[52:25] um if there was no public interest. Right? So, I found a an illegality, torture. The the American people, I decided the American people need to know that the government is committing the crime of torture. The judge says, "Uh-uh." She defined espionage in the broadest way possible, and this is the precedent. She defined espionage as providing national defense information to any person not entitled to receive it.

[52:58] Period. And my lawyer jumped up and said, "Your honor, are you saying that a person can accidentally commit espionage?" And she said, "That's exactly what I'm saying. It's crazy." So, so now anybody can be charged with espionage. And and I'll remind you that if the feds want to make it a death penalty case, espionage can

[53:29] be punished by death. So we're not we're not talking about, you know, $50 fine here. Talking about a death penalty charge. That's insane. I mean, you know, again, that's that's overstepping. That's overreaching. That's being power hungry going, "No, I'm gonna make it this and just completely changing it." You know, its definition. I mean, you know, that's a that's a that's a bad idea. President

[54:03] >> Ley Brinkma of the Eastern District of Virginia. She's a Bill Clinton appointee and she's dangerous. >> She's still there. Still on the bed. >> She's still there. She's like 80 years old and still wrecking people's lives each and every day. So, you end up doing like two years in federal prison, >> right? I did uh 23 months. >> All for telling the truth. All for telling the truth. Everybody, everyone make a note of that. All right. Telling the truth and outing bad

[54:35] policies, bad behavior that cost people's lives that went against everything the United States stands for. And you got thrown to the wolves to say uh it took 2 years off your life. >> Yeah. But you know what though, Tom? As as odd or maybe even irrational as it might sound, I would do it again. >> I know. I knew you were going to say that. >> The only thing I would do differently is I would hire my attorneys earlier on in the process. But that's that's just a

[55:07] little detail. I I would do it again. I remember saying to myself at the time, I'm right and they're wrong. And now here we are 18 years later and I know I was right and I know that they were wrong. >> Good for you. And uh good for you and I'm glad you're you're here doing what you're doing today. And and that's what I want to get to next. Uh, I saw an interview with you recently about

[55:39] Jeffrey Epstein and everything going on about him. I'm like, "Oh, we got to hit this." Especially, right, this this guy, you know, we don't write. Dan and I and everyone who knows our show knows it's unscripted. This is just, you know, talk that we do and questions that we come up with are come up with during the show. This I actually wrote down. I actually wrote down Epstein with a bunch of stars around it. So, John,

[56:11] professionally, historic, what's your take on this circus going on? >> Well, where do you even begin? >> First of all, I was engaged in the equivalent of a WWE Smackdown with Alan Dersowitz a couple of weeks ago on uh on Pierce Morgan show. I was with u Scott Horton. I don't know if you guys know Scott Horton or have had him on your show, but this guy is absolutely brilliant. I I wish my brain could work

[56:41] in such a linear fashion as his does. I I could sit and just listen to him talk all day. So, it was Scott and me versus Alan Dersuitz and the former head of Mossad. And I said that I was I was 100% confident that Jeffrey Epstein had been a Mossad access agent. Right? An access agent is somebody who gives a foreign intelligence service access to important people who have important information.

[57:13] And I said this on the show, if you're a foreign intelligence agency, you're not going to recruit Bill Gates. You're not going to recruit Bill Clinton or Peter Teal or Prince Andrew. They don't have vulnerabilities that would allow you to make that recruitment. So, you do the next best thing. You recruit the guy next to them, right? And then maybe you provide a honeypot so you can hold something over their heads if you have to. You probably won't have to, but you wire the bedrooms for audio and video.

[57:43] You wire the bathrooms for audio and video. You collect all this information. you send it back to the Israelis. I think that it's clear that that's what we're looking at here. This was an Israeli access operation. Now, the the the current scandal, and this is a bonafide scandal for Donald Trump, and some of it's of his own making because he he ran on this in the 2024 election. this he ran on transparency

[58:13] and just opening the books and now they come and tell us that there are no books. So I said just recently in the podcast Tom that you're referring to that I said that how should I want I want it to sound new and fresh rather than just repeating myself. But we're not talking about a file folder that says, you know, sex crimes against

[58:46] children committed by people at Jeffrey Epstein's house, right? Yeah. Okay. So, if if that's the file we're looking for, that file doesn't exist. But what we're not talking about is Pam Bondi said two weeks ago indignantly, "Those videos have nothing but child pornography on them and they will never be released. They will never see the light of day." Good. We don't want to see We don't want to see the the the child sex videos. What we what we want

[59:20] is to know who the men were in the child sex video. And then we want the head of the FBI to explain to us why those men aren't under arrest and facing trial right now. Who's being protected and why? And it's it's just a mystery to me why that isn't happening. You look at Cash Patel and Dan Bonino. I have to say, you know, I I approached life from the left. I was thrilled when

[59:52] Donald Trump appointed Cash Patel and Dan Banchino because I really really believe I continue to believe that the FBI needs to be torn down to its studs and then rebuilt right. And I think those are the two guys to do it. But when Cash Patel and Dan Bonino are sitting in the room like this and looking at you from above their glasses because they hate what you're saying that there is no more information and no more information will be released, you

[1:00:24] know something's up. And then Dan Bonino, God bless him. He didn't even go to work the next day. He was so mad. There were reports in the media that he got into a shouting match with Pam Bondi at the White House. Not even in Bonnie's office, but at the White House. Got into a shouting match with her. So angry he walked out and didn't go to work the next day. So that tells me, not because I'm such a great analyst, because it's totally

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[1:01:56] brand that stands for quality, community, and the American spirit. [Music] >> So why? Who's being protected and why are they being protected? >> I don't think anybody I don't think anybody in America thinks that there is no more information on the Epstein case. We had a guest on a show um a while ago, wonderful young woman who was actually on that island. Oh my god. She tells her story. Um, she was of age, but

[1:02:27] nonetheless creepy, icky, gross. And to her, to our recollection from the conversation, she said there were cameras everywhere. >> Everywhere. Even in the bathrooms. >> If you think about a guy like Jeffrey Epstein, he was looking to protect himself by having he was the Joover. massive evidence of everything to hold over people's heads so he can keep doing what he wants to do. Um, so right, I think we just want to know the truth and

[1:02:59] we voted for this guy and his team for the truth and we want it to come out. Just I don't care who goes down what side of the aisle. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. This is not a partisan issue. Although the Democrats sure want it to be a partisan issue. I want to I want to take a swipe at them, too. You know, it's the Democrats that sponsored this bill in the House a couple of days ago that caused Mike Johnson to um to shut down business and send everybody home for the summer uh vacation, right? So, no business is

[1:03:31] going to be conducted on Capitol Hill until September. He shut it down because the Democrats were going to vote unanimously to force the release of the information. and they're being joined by Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Green and maybe a half a dozen members of the House Freedom Caucus. It's great to have the information released. We all want the information released, but the Democrats had four years to release it. And what the hell were they doing for 4 years other than perpetuating the cover up? So, I don't want to hear Democratic protestations

[1:04:02] now about how the information absolutely positively has to get out. They had four years to put it out. I'm I'm not going to take any lectures from the Democratic party. >> No, that's exactly right. And I think I think when it comes to to Cash Patel and and Pam and and Dan, Dan's >> Dan was, you know, a podcast host, you know, so so he had a different view of what he could talk about and >> and his view of this before he got appointed. I think the other two got way

[1:04:34] over their skis with promising stuff before they had the access of what this actually was. >> Yes. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I think that's exactly what we're seeing here. >> On the one hand, you know, that's going to that's going to get you wrapped around the axle every once in a while. On the other hand, that's very refreshing transparency, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> Like, hey, I have an idea. Let's tell the truth. Oh, how come nobody else ever thought of that?

[1:05:04] >> It's an idea that dies of loneliness in Washington DC, doesn't it? >> That's right. >> You know, we've had Cash on the show and we I've met him. We have enormous respect for him. Um I have nothing but respect for these people. >> I do. >> And I want to see them come through like they said they would. >> That's all we want. >> That's it. >> That's all we want. >> Just do what you said you're going to do. That's it. It's as easy as that. >> And it's simple. It is, you know, but I think what happened, just reiterate again, they they sat down when they had the access to everything went, "Oh,

[1:05:34] damn. Uhoh." >> And by that time, it's over. By that time, you're done. You already you already opened the bag. >> Uh, but they they have to do a better job explaining it and articulating it. And, you know, like you just said, just do it. You're You said you're going to do it. Just do it. >> Just do it. It's as simple as that. >> Agreed. Totally agreed. So really quick observation and this is you know the three of us here have probably done countless hours I can't even begin to count of interview and interrogation in our careers. We know how to detect

[1:06:06] deception. We understand many things about interviews the subtleties of human behavior doing under pressure. We get it. I'm watching the news the other day and Alan Dersitz comes out and I'm not trying to slam him and don't sue me Allan. This is just an observation. You came out and said my hand to God I know what's going on. It's in the courts. My hand. Whenever somebody says that, what does that mean? >> They're lying. >> Trying so hard to convince you that they're calling God into the picture to

[1:06:37] the discussion. And it's usually a sign of deception. >> In that Piers Morgan um episode, he said something that was so funny. I think I rattled him just a little bit. I I know Dersuit not very well, but we've conversed a few times. So when I said that I believed Epstein was an Israeli access agent, the head of Mossad just he chuckled. And then later on Pierce said, you know,

[1:07:07] is he was he an access agent? Oh, well, we haven't spied on the Americans since 1985. I said, that's not true because there were Israeli spies that were exposed in Washington in 1991. And he just goes like, okay, I busted him. He doesn't care. It's all a big joke. Duritz though kept interrupting and just coming in and hitting me over and over. And he said I was Epstein's attorney. He was a friend of mine. If anybody would have known if

[1:07:38] he had been an Israeli spy, he would have told me. I would have known. And if he had been an Israeli spy, I could have gotten I could have gotten a shorter sentence for him because it would have been mitigating. And I said mitigating. How in the world could it have been mitigating for you to go on TV and say my client should have a shorter sentence because he's committing espionage for a foreign government. I said I would have wanted to hang him from a tree.

[1:08:10] That's not mitigating to spy for a foreign power. Are you nuts? I would have given him life without parole. There's a lot of people shaking in their boots right now. I'll say a lot. >> And maybe they deserve to shake. Anybody who did anything disgusting with a child >> with Jeffrey Epstein, >> get exposed. Let's clean this country out, right? Let's Let's do We We're on a bit of a roll. >> Uh a bit of a roll. Keep it going. We need it. If we're going to survive and

[1:08:41] the world goes as America goes, we need to clean this stuff up. >> That's it. And you know what, Dan and John, we've done so many shows on on child trafficking, human trafficking, all that. We've we've done quite a few with investigators with victims who've gone through it. If the United States is not going to defend kids, what the hell are we all doing? >> Oh my god. When I give speeches at at colleges and universities, this always comes up. And I I use a hypothetical

[1:09:14] uh situation when I when I talk to college kids. I say, "Let's say you're a CIA operations officer. You're working against a terrorist group, any terrorist group. It doesn't matter which. And you you have a a guy, an agent, the source, who's a a direct penetration of al-Qaeda or ISIS or whatever. You meet with him once a month in a hotel in the Middle East and this guy has given you actionable intelligence that you have used to disrupt attacks. You have saved

[1:09:46] American lives because of this man's information. So you fly out to let's say Aman or Cairo to meet with him and he says to you when you arrive, you know what? I've given you everything you've wanted. I've been truthful with you since the beginning, but now you're going to do something for me. I'm not going to give you any more information until you go out and you get me a prostitute. So I say, show of hands, who would give him a prostitute? You go out there and get him a prostitute. And usually about 75% put their hands up. And I say, yeah,

[1:10:20] you would. It's not nice. It's kind of gross, but this is the job that we've chosen. So yeah, you you would get him the prostitute. Make him happy. What if he asks for a child prostitute? And usually people kind of look around and then about 10% will very gingerly put their hand up and I say absolutely not. Not under any circumstances.

[1:10:51] It's a child for God's sake. But here's the issue. The issue is there are no rules at the CIA. The CIA is not going to send you to an ethics class, right, that you can you can use to guide your career. Nobody at headquarters is going to say, "No, don't do that." So, you've got to go into these situations with your own personal set of ethics. Listen, in our guts, we all know right from wrong, all of us. It's a question

[1:11:24] of implementing the right and that's what separates people in these positions. >> Words are well said. So well said. So John, we could do a five-part series with you on diesels. >> Easy. My god. Dal about this. We're like, how the f are we putting John on for I mean, how are we going to do it?

[1:11:54] But we think we did all right. But what I want, John, please tell tell everyone where they can see you, >> where they can contact you, all that because you are you're a special one. And I'm not just saying it. You're just you're so authentic and so upfront and we need that. >> Appreciate it. It's refreshing. >> Thank you very much. >> No, Trump's ears. I really need that pardon. I really really need that pardon.

[1:12:26] Well, thank you. I'm I'm on YouTube at two places. One is called uh Deep Focus with John Kiryaku. That one's actually I I've only been doing it for about two months. It's actually turning into something. Uh Deep Focus with John Kuryaku. The other one is D uh DProgram with John and Ted. So, those are on YouTube. The other one is my Substack, John Kuryaku. Everything I do I put on Substack and I'm on a platform called Unified TV Unify D. The show is called

[1:12:57] CIA Declassified. And what we do is we take documents, original CIA documents that the CIA declassifies, and we tell the background story to these historic events now that the now that the classified docs are out there. >> It's kind of fun. >> That sounds fascinating. We'll go Paul. >> We'll make sure we blast that out for our audience uh on our social media. and I want to look into it myself a little bit more. I see a stack of books behind you, too. Is it uh something you wrote? >> I've I've written seven. My eighth book is supposed to come out next week, but I

[1:13:29] don't know what the heck's going on there. I My first seven books were about the CIA. Um I did I did a couple of memoirs. I did uh uh my first book was called uh oh, The Reluctant Spy, My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror. Then the second one was doing time like a spy, how the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison. This one is the third one, the convenient terrorist, two whistleblowers, stories of torture, terror, secret wars, and CIA liies. And

[1:13:59] then I was commissioned to do a four-part series. The CIA Insiders Guide to the Iran Crisis, the CIA Insiders Guide to Surveillance and Surveillance Detection, The CIA Insiders Guide to Lying and Lie Detection, and The CIA Insiders Guide to Disappearing and Living Off the Grid. And then my eighth book is supposed to come out next week. There's been an inexplicable delay, but it's completely different than anything I've done before. It's called Remains of the Day.

[1:14:30] The remains of the day, the ultimate guide to Washington DC's historic cemeteries. And I'm 50% done with Whispers in the Dirt, the ultimate guide to New York City's mafia graves. >> And I have a couple more in that series. Once I get started, the the publishers commission, give us more. So, I'm going to do Chicago cemeteries, the country western graves of Nashville, and America's most notorious serial killers.

[1:15:01] So, I have lots of books coming up. >> You need a resume, John. I mean, you know, >> probably. I mean, you know, or do something for yourself for Chris. >> If it wasn't for my daily triple shot, I don't know what I would do. >> Yeah. Well, I can't write wait to start reading. I will admit I haven't read any of your books, but I'm a voracious reader and I will read anything and everything I can get my hands on. But I can't wait for your children's book. Osama hears a knock. It's gonna be um

[1:15:31] >> said someone's at the door. I wonder who it could be. >> That would be awesome. >> Wouldn't it be funny? It would be funny. >> Oh man, we can't thank you enough me. >> You know what? You're a courageous guy and you're a patriot. you love your country enough to put yourself on the line >> to straighten it out, to clean it up when you see it doing things it shouldn't. And thank you for being that brave guy >> and for sharing your story with us today. We appreciate you and >> such a such a pleasure to see both of you again. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the invitation.

[1:16:02] >> It was a pleasure. I mean, you know, we we started this show, this podcast, you know, praying we would have the, you know, able to interview people like you and and thankfully we do because it's it's so it's so fascinating to get other stories of events that you knew but had no idea about, you know, and I think that's what we try to bring to our audience and that's what they appreciate, you know, that, oh yeah, I heard about that but holy crap. >> Yeah. >> kind of thing. Uh, and John, it was an

[1:16:34] absolute pleasure and and literal honor to have you on here today. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. And >> everyone out there this time of the show. Pray for all our law enforcement officers out there, uh, federal, state, local, the military, our operatives, everyone around the world doing a unthinkable job just to keep us all safe. Uh, pray for them, their families, and everyone involved in the mission of keeping us safe. Uh, please don't forget them. Uh, again, galls.com

[1:17:06] uh call. I'm getting ahead of myself. galls.com, tacticalgegeear.com. Uh, our promo code gold 15. Make sure you use it for 15% off every item on goals and tacticalgeear.com. Uh, our website, the goldshieldshow.com, and every audio channel you can think of and our YouTube channel. Please hit the bell, subscribe, follow, keep our numbers going in the direction they're going in, and we have no one to thank but our audience. Thank you so much for

[1:17:36] having uh our back and having guests like John make it all better. Uh for my partner Dan Murphy and John, everyone out there, stay safe. Don't go anywhere. We got overtime coming. [Music] Hey, we're back. Overtime. Cops love overtime. We love overtime, right, Tom? >> And this is overtime with with John. I You know what? We knew

[1:18:07] this was going to be a packed show. And we hit everyone out there like 5% I think of what we we could have hit with him. >> Oh, maybe even less. >> Yeah. >> What an amazing guy. >> Incredible career around the world. deep personal experience with the CIA and other agencies protecting America. He knows what he's talking about and he's a man of great conviction and courage. I appreciate that in him. >> Oh yeah. I mean there How many people do

[1:18:37] we know, you know, even more now that we're in this little world that just BS their way through stuff, you know, and act like they know and oh, I was there. No, you were sitting outside having coffee and you know, all that. But he is neck deep in all these big things that went on historically in this country and just is so intelligent about how he approaches them and what he knows. It what a absolute pleasure that that was.

[1:19:08] I mean literally bro we could have been off for six hours with him. >> Easy. No problem. Bring me lunch later. you know, he's um he's he's that rare person who took a look at something and relied on his morals, his his own personal moral compass and his ethics, and he said, "I am not going to be involved in something like that because the United States shouldn't be involved." And he blew the whistle to the media. Now, some might say, "Oh, he should have went to the Senate." Well, he chose to do it the way he chose to do it, and it came out. It got out direct

[1:19:38] from him, which what was his goal. And America should be the better off for people who come forward and blow the whistle legitimately on things that are being done that are criminal and just plain not what America is. Right. >> Right. I mean, you know, and again, it was just it was proven that it didn't work. You couldn't believe anything they were saying because I mean, you know, put any of us there, you know, I'm going to say what I want to stop whatever's going on, you know, and then you can expand on it later on. But the, you

[1:20:10] know, it was just something I have so much respect for him because listen, just going against, and we've all, we've both done it, Dan. Just going against a supervisor is hard enough to go head-to-head with a supervisor in a normal conversation in an office is hard to do. Hey, you never had any problem doing that with me. >> No, because you agreed with some of the crazy [ __ ] I was doing. That's why it was easy.

[1:20:40] a little more. >> Yeah, Dan, we need to do this. It was, "Hey, Tom, we need to do this." >> Yeah. No, you're right. We were on the same page. Yeah. >> You know, but you know, think about the level he had to go through and like you just said, Dan, like some people say, "Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that?" Who are you going to trust at that point to go and talk about this to, you know, with what he had to tell? >> Let me go bring this into the machine. The same machine that wants this to happen, right? So, you know, I also found it fascinating when he talked

[1:21:11] about the attempts that were made to get Bin Laden, whether it be renditioned or killed, prior to 9/11, when they knew he was a rising threat, one of the most dangerous people in the world. I remember when Congress laughed at at Oliver North when they asked him about his home security system. Is it true that he spent $50,000 on a home security system? Uh why would you do that? protect against a man named Osama bin Laden. He's the most dangerous man in the world. And they all laughed at him.

[1:21:41] Well, it turns out all the North was right. He was the most dangerous man in the world. >> I mean, and John said 1990, >> 1991, one of his fellow analysts had him in his sights and recognized how dangerous he was. >> I mean, what a different world if someone just listened. What a world we all live in now and lived in x amount of years ago would have been different. >> Our lives would have been different. So many lives would have been different had they listened.

[1:22:11] And you know you can Monday morning quarterback all day long. It is what it is. But at the end of the day, let's learn from it, right? Let's learn as a country from it. >> Right? And that's the important thing. Listen, failures happen. People fail. Governments, entities, agencies, they fail. What do you do after the failure is the important part? >> What comes next? If you just keep doing the same crap, then you didn't learn a damn thing. >> He's a fascinating guy. We're honored to have him on. John Kuryaku, we wish him

[1:22:42] all the best in everything he's doing. He's out there sharing what he learned, sharing his insights, and hopefully recharging America's moral compass in certain ways and expectations of government. He talked about Epstein. We all want it to come out. We voted for Donald Trump for president because we want him to expose the corruption, the swamp, the filth. Bring it out. Let us decide whether or not we like it or or we can take it. Don't act as though you're the guard guardian or gatekeeper

[1:23:12] for us. Just throw it out. Right. >> Right. No doubt. You know, that's really And you're right. You know, they made you know, words matter. You know, when you come out there for a year telling everyone what you're going to do, when and if we get in, when and if we're elected, we're going to do this, this, and this. No one's forgetting that. No one's going to forget what you put out there, and you have to come through because that was part of this vote of of getting certain things out there. And,

[1:23:43] you know, you put it out there now. You own it. You have to own this. You have to. and they have to take it and and do what they, you know, need to do with it. I was hoping in some way, shape, or form this might have been a bit of a head fake from Trump. It might have been his way of stalling until indictments come out and maybe he didn't want to release anything prior to the indictments because it's all evidentary. I don't know. But, um, we want to hear the truth and, um, that's that's what we voted for. Let's let's expose it, bring it out, we'll

[1:24:14] deal with it. Um, >> his reach is so wild. I mean, we have to, you know, we'll just keep we'll keep up to date what we're doing, you know, what's going on in the world because he's going to have his hand in everything going on and we'll have him again on, you know, in a couple months or whatever and just update it. Uh, because he's fascinating to just listen to. >> Oh, yeah. Listen to him all day. >> All day. Well, another one, Tom. Another one that we didn't think we would ever get lucky enough to get on, but you

[1:24:46] know, we talk about what's the motivation for this show, right? We want great stories, inside story, but we want truth. We're very, very big believers in putting truth out there. We won't let people come on their show and BS and stall. And we're not doing that. It it we're bringing people on who are going to tell you the truth about what they know and what they have seen. This guy got put into federal prison for telling the truth about criminal activity. Yep. That's disgusting. thing that that >> Yep. two years of his life in a federal

[1:25:16] prison. And you know, we have to here here's the other thing and he didn't get into it, which is fine, but I watched an interview with him how he ended up in that prison because he wasn't supposed to be there. It's a wild story. He It was not The prison he ended up in was not the prison he was supposed to be in, which is a whole another story uh that just took a little time to tell. And that's probably why he didn't do it. But that's another reason to have him on cuz that is a just mindn numbing story of

[1:25:48] that whole event that happened. Crazy. Uh but you know, uh we keep doing it, buddy. Keep getting them and keep getting them and keep putting them out there. >> We're lucky. We're very lucky. And we we love our audience. We thank you. We get great feedback all the time. We get the occasional, "Hey, why'd you do this?" But we're happy with that. We want the dialogue with our audience. Our audience is everything. We wouldn't be doing this if not for you. And we love our sponsors that we believe in them and they believe in us. We're just lucky, Tom. We're two lucky guys >> very much. Very much. And and we just

[1:26:18] keep going for our audience. And you know, uh I I got a great message the other day on on Instagram. Uh you know, funny facicious obviously Liz who is always talking about it, always watching the show, always listen. And she's like, "Would you stop having so many great guests on?" Because I tell people, "Listen to this show. Listen to this show." And each one's better. I can't keep up. >> Yeah. That's a great problem to have if you're in our business here. >> Yes. A great problem to have. >> So, uh, all right, my man.

[1:26:50] >> We'll wrap it up, brother. So, we'll uh we'll say goodbye to everybody for now. And, uh, stay tuned. We're we got more stuff lined up for you coming up that's going to knock your socks off. We just keep getting lucky. So stick around and uh listen to our old shows too. See how we've come a long way from two stammering idiots with microphones to two stammering idiots with sponsors. This show's a little different than it was three years ago. You got to say that. But little little thanks for everyone. Thanks for tuning in. Uh, one

[1:27:21] more time, the gold shieldshow.com, YouTube at uh, Goldshields and, uh, all the audio platforms you can think of. >> And fairines.com for the best security services anywhere, anything you need. Fairineservices.com. Another sponsor who we love and believe, love them all. Everyone, stay safe. Be good. We'll see everybody soon.
