Title: Scott Has Questions for John Kiriakou
Show: DMZ America Podcast
Date: 2026-03-19
URL: https://youtu.be/hn5BdOxEGiY
Duration: 1:03:00

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[00:06] [music] >> And thank you Trent. Thank you Trent for the new intro. You're watching the DMC America podcast with editorial cartoonist Ted Rall. I'm Ted Rall I'm coming from the left and coming from the right is I don't know if I could do that anymore awkwardly. I'm Scott Stantis right coming you cartoon man. I hate you. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Joining us for the hour is John Kiriakou

[06:54] accident in Africa. What's that code for? Yeah, exactly. It's code for somebody launched an operation against us and killed a bunch of special forces guys. And then whenever they say civilian employee of the Pentagon that's code for a CIA officer. Well, let's assume for a moment you're appointed head of the CIA. Or even is there a more is there a larger umbrella that controls all intelligence? Yeah, DNI.

[07:25] Okay, so you're you're DNI director. What do you do? What are your first what are your first moves? DNI director is actually less powerful than the CIA director. Well, let's make you CIA director. Okay. Um I'm a little bit biased because I've had something of a bad experience with the CIA over the last >> [laughter] >> I heard something about that. So grouchy John. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, gosh. God a few years in jail let it go man. You know I used to work for a guy named Jim Pavitt. Jim was the deputy

[07:57] director for operations. And Jim had this mantra he would just repeat it like almost every day in our morning meeting. The job of the CIA is to recruit spies to steal secrets and to analyze those secrets so that the president can make the best informed policy. He would say it every day. It's not to it's not to be in charge of these multi-billion dollar satellites that can do something that's slightly better than what it could do five years ago. It

[08:28] wasn't to negotiate with Erik Prince to get some mercenary army into some godforsaken place. It was to recruit spies to steal secrets. And if there is going to be a CIA I'm not convinced that we need one anymore. Um or even that we ever did. Um in fact Harry Truman once said that he was a damn fool for creating the CIA in the first place. Why did he say that? Because he believed that the CIA had killed John Kennedy.

[08:58] Yeah, he wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post a few days after Kennedy was assassinated in which he sort of cast shadow on the CIA and the post ran the article in its morning edition and then pulled it in the afternoon edition. Yeah, I was going to say that's I've not heard that though that's explosive. That's Yeah, so you know listen I'm a realist I know we can't do away with the CIA. It would take an act of Congress that would never ever ever happen.

[09:29] And so I would do my best to get the CIA out of the business of counterterrorism. Turn that over to the Pentagon. Let them deal with it. Um and and at the CIA I would bring it back to the basics of recruiting spies to steal secrets. Can I a bit of a sea change here but I know I'm asking this for Ted myself and the entire dying profession. Um what is the world view of cartoonists and cartoon editorial cartooning? Does it I mean it seems to have had some some

[10:01] some power, but I mean that's been >> These cartoonists they want to take [laughter] completely they're very dangerous these guys. Um in all seriousness uh the power of political cartooning is not lost on the world's leaders. They worry about political cartoonists. Which is stunning to me why the United States and why we've gone over this topic a million times on this podcast, but it's just it's still infuriating that editors in the United States have always hated us. Always. I mean

[10:32] I've been a staff cartoonist for 45 years. And you know, oh go do your little cartoons. And can I share a quick story with you? You're going to love this. Um this is inside information. I mean I can talk about it because I don't work for them anymore. Um I was working at the Birmingham News here in Birmingham, Alabama. And they decided to do an actual scientific study. They had focus groups as part of this this program. And one day was focused or one morning was focused on editorial pages. And so they had sat down with 10 15 people, however many it was. They said, how do you you

[11:03] know, so do you read the editorial page? How many of you read the editorial page every day? All the hands go up. How many of you read the cartoon? All the hands go up. How many of you read the editorials? Two hands go up. How many of you read the columns? Like three hands go up. How many of you read the letters? Four three or four hands go up. And they said and then they started the question. You can see where this is going. They started asking questions of these of this focus group. What you know, what do you read? I said, oh well what do you like about the editorials? I said, well we don't. We like the cartoon. Well, what do you like about the columns? Well, we don't. We like the cartoons.

[11:34] John, I'm not making this up. The next group that came in they had blacked out my cartoons. >> [laughter] >> So so so so they had to focus on the you know, the wretched editorials and the you know, and then on the other hand time will tell. >> [laughter] >> You know, it it's I think it's because you guys can say something that's so powerful it actually becomes more powerful than anything that a that a

[12:05] written journalist could say and get away with it. You know, for example, a couple things that come to mind. I remember Garry Trudeau doing whatever it was four panels, three panels, whatever it was. Four. And it was Frank Sinatra singing My Way, right? So here's Sinatra on stage holding the mic and he's singing the the words to My Way. Same thing in the second panel. Same thing in the third panel. And then the fourth panel was an actual photograph. And it says, Frank Sinatra doing it his

[12:37] way with Joe Gas Pipe Casso Jimmy the Jimmy the Weasel you know, this guy Frank the Killer this guy. And it was all these like bosses and underbosses of the five families. But it's not like a reporter said, Frank Sinatra's in the mafia. You don't have to say Frank Sinatra's in the mafia. All you had to do was show that picture. And then handwrite in

[13:08] Garry Trudeau's you know, recognizable handwriting handwrite the names of the people that Frank Sinatra's you know, yucking it up with. It's hard for journalists to to be a written journalist to be able to do something like that. And I think that they just don't have the power that editorial cartoonists have. Well, to the portrayal Ted's a good example of portrayal of George President George W. Bush as just sort of you know, runny nose [ __ ] Right. >> Um you know, clearly he wasn't either of

[13:39] those you know, obviously, but the portrayal of that is incre I mean I'm looking at Herblock having Nixon coming out of the sewer. You know, hey everyone the vice president's here. Um [laughter] you know, Oliphant's portrayal of of Jimmy Carter and just becoming smaller and smaller and smaller along with Jeff MacNelly did the same thing. I mean they defined those presidencies. And I I I'm just consistently shocked. And so when you hear about other cartoonists in other countries, they're the ones who are really getting you

[14:10] know, uh bombarded by oppressive regimes. And so they don't have to do that here. They newspaper business pretty much killed us. And it's I just obviously okay. You you I touched my own nerve. That was >> [laughter] >> It's hearing Ted's story from the LA Times. I mean it's it's it gives you a knot in your stomach that something like that could happen in 21st century America. But it does. Well, and doing cartoons that are clearly like you know, you you drew

[14:40] the cartoonist who had worked at the Chicago Tribune prior to me a guy named Dick Locher. Great guy. Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist, but he drew Netanyahu and they got tons of complaints and he had to the paper apologize because he drew Netanyahu because he looked Jewish. I'm going, folks >> [laughter] >> look at the flag. What's on it? And it wasn't like an overt like like you know, something from the Nazi party like from the 30s. [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah, it

[15:11] wasn't it wasn't anything close to that, but they also were afraid that we get attacked so consistent so so consistently and furiously and Ted can attest to this as well for just you know, people say, well this cartoon you did you said this. I go, well, that's not what where I was going. They said, I know where you were going. You're going Okay. Okay, first wife. It's like okay. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm thinking. That's an amazing skill set you have. That's a remarkable Yeah. Um I wish you knew what

[15:42] the stock market were thinking. That would be more useful. Well, talking I mean Tucker Carlson's I I do want to ask you about the Tucker Carlson thing. Is he is this just all [ __ ] I'm sorry. I'm I'm hearing him say that the CIA is putting together an I you know, a case to arrest him for I guess sedition or being a traitor. >> No, that's not how that's not how the system works. Okay. Almost every morning one of the deputy director's briefers would say, there was a leak in the New

[16:13] York Times today. There was a leak in the Washington Post today. There was a leak in the Wall Street Journal today. And he would report on what the leak was. And the deputy director would say, okay, send over a crimes report. A crimes report is a memo from the CIA to the Justice Department saying there was a leak in the paper today. This is what the leak said. This is why it's classified. 99 times out of 100 times they just file [snorts] it. One time out of 100 maybe they'll start doing an investigation.

[16:45] So number one we now know that that the allegation the ridiculous allegation assertion that Tucker Carlson was somehow working for the Iranians did not come from the CIA. It came from Laura Loomer who's one of the most radical crazy people who is on the political scene these days. She's a nut. And and I'm happy to say that publicly. She This is a woman who's banned for life

[17:17] from Uber, Lyft and Target because she because of her anti-Arab anti-Muslim hate speech. And and you know, insistence that people become violent against Muslims and Arabs. Okay. So Laura Loomer came out on Sunday and said, it was me. I did it. I did it. I wrote a letter to the Justice Department. And I said that Tucker Carlson is a paid agent of the Iranian government and he should be arrested for

[17:48] treason. Well, of course treason is

[19:50] >> in I think it was 2018, in the district that includes Mar-a-Lago and and Palm Beach. And she got like 23%. Nobody wants her. Nobody likes her. Nobody pays any attention to her. She's not smart enough to have her own show on Fox or Newsmax or anywhere else. And so she just throws a grenade into the middle of the room every once in a while just to see what happens. I have to congratulate you by the way. Us on one of the podcasts, you were asked about why you're working for. At the time it was

[20:21] Sputnik. And your response was exactly what mine I was a regular guest on Ted's show and people and we and Ted got tons of crap as much as you did and I got some you know second hand crap >> [laughter] >> and but I loved your answer. I just like because why why are you working on why you working for Sputnik why are you talking because they're the only ones who asked. Yeah, my variant on that was it's not like CNN is burning up my phone line. Yeah, Fox News never calls. It's it's amazing how people who you

[20:52] know they they get upset that you take a gig and they don't want to offer you a gig. They don't care if you die under a bridge out in the cold and in the rain. They're just like just don't do that. It's like okay well as like as long as you know Russia or whoever Press TV which is Iran. Anyway, as long as they're not telling me what to say or what to do I'll talk to anybody. You know and I'll add one thing to that too. CNN doesn't call me anymore. MSNBC stopped calling me years ago.

[21:24] Fox I'm on Fox all the time. Um but usually cuz they want me to take a swipe at the CIA or to explain something that the CIA is doing. I never ever say no, never. Because they're the only ones that ask. Now with that said, the very first time I ever went on Fox it was on Fox and Friends in the morning. And they said we're going to send you over the questions so that you're prepared. I said great, thanks. So they send me the questions. As I'm reading through the questions I get a second email from them and it says suggested

[21:56] responses. OH. NO. And I was like oh no you don't. Absolutely not and I ignored it. Oh wow. They only did that once and that was oh I'm talking now 15 years ago. No way. Yeah, suggested responses. In case what you're not smart enough to answer her question. >> [laughter] >> You know one thing that the networks do

[22:27] all all the networks do this it drives me crazy too. They'll say hey can you come on tonight and talk about X Y and Z and I always say sure. And then they say well we just need to do a quick pre-interview. So what's your opinion on this question? And you tell them your opinion and they're like okay I'll call you right back. And then they call back a minute later and they say you know what we decided to go a different way on this story. >> [laughter] >> We won't need you tonight. That happens to me a lot. Yeah. Yeah, that's happened to me a few times as well. That's >> [laughter] >> So when they when they say the media is

[22:59] skewed or it's yeah that it is. Just just for those you kids out there who still have dreams and hopes The inside stuff is so fun. I mean there was the time I was on with Sean Hannity and he was reaming me over you know Reagan had just died and I sorry Scott I know you liked President But I but I said I had just issued something and said oh yeah I'm sure he's turning crispy brown by now. Hannity goes Hannity goes well you know

[23:29] what do you have against Reagan and so I mentioned a bunch of stuff and I said oh you know and he killed Gaddafi's daughter. Um just for fun basically. And he said well that's because of the the the disco bombing. That's that was in retaliation for that and I said oh Um you know I I was like well I've got you moment here. I was like well that's interesting Reagan must have totally had clairvoyance because that happened he killed that girl years before the disco bombing. And uh I hear I could hear the buzzing the

[24:00] producer yelling in his ear go to break go to break. >> [laughter] >> And that's or yeah Ted we're not good we're done here. Yeah, we're not going to need you. Or launch into Ronald Ronald Reagan time traveler. >> [laughter] >> The last time I was on MSNBC was 2016. I was on with Dan Ellsberg. And what was the guy's name Ari was it Ari Melber? Is that his name? He was on MSNBC I can't remember. I think it was

[24:32] Ari Melber or was he CNN? I can't remember. I think I think he's yeah I think he's MSNBC. >> So they they called me earlier in the day they said we're going to have you split screen with Daniel Ellsberg. I said oh my god Dan's one of my favorite people he's a mentor to me we've been friends for years. It'll be great. So um they said it's going to be on I forget what the issue was. I said fantastic whistleblowing. How would you like to be addressed? And I said or identified. I said either

[25:05] CIA torture whistleblower John Kiriakou, CIA former CIA officer John Kiriakou, former CIA counterterrorism officer John Kiriakou. I said whatever you guys prefer that either any of those three. They said okay. So I go all the freaking way up Nebraska Avenue. MSNBC and NBC are not close to anything, right? So I go all the way up to the end of Nebraska Avenue I'm almost in Maryland. And it's like an armed camp. You have to

[25:35] be buzzed into the compound. It's got barbed wire. It's ridiculous. So I go in heavy makeup even heavier than Fox which struck me as odd. And and then I get wired up. So I'm sitting there and um and they put Dan on the screen. I said hi Dan. He says hi John how are you? I say hey great to see you Dan. And then Ari Melber comes on and he's like okay so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to have the first question to Dan and the second question to John and it's

[26:07] going to be about whistleblowing. I said great. So he starts off uh whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg told us about the Pentagon Papers which concluded that the US was losing the war in Vietnam and Dan answers his question. And then he says and now we go to convicted felon John Kiriakou. And I go [ __ ] I said [laughter] like that loud. [ __ ] I said we went over this with your [ __ ] producers.

[26:38] And he's like so I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry. I said I'm I'm done I'm walking out. I stood up and I start taking this stuff off me you know the the microphones and stuff. He's like please please I'm sorry that was my [ __ ] up. I'm so sorry I'm sorry we'll start back at the beginning again. And I said don't ever [ __ ] set me up like that again I told him. Don't ever do that again. So I did the interview they never called me again. Wasn't it taped was it a taper or was it live? It was it was taped. It was like four hours before it was

[27:08] yeah. Yeah. Yeah I had I had you know well Hannity you know so they they the producer calls you and usually tells you exactly what the subject is going to be. Um Garry Trudeau of Doonesbury had done a controversial cartoon. I was the president of the AEC which is the editorial cartoonists association and they said oh can you come in and share your expertise about editorial about political cartooning. I said and I knew Sean Hannity and I was like all right so this is not about my cartooning. This is only about

[27:41] Garry Trudeau and Doonesbury and about cartooning in general. Correct. I'm like this is not going to involve any controversial cartoon of mine. Right. So I go on and of course we never even talk about Trudeau. He immediately pops up I've got like a two-year-old controversial cartoon I'd done of mine. I was I wanted to throw a chair at him. You know I I I think I would have become a Geraldo-like hero to to all liberals everywhere. But I was so furious but we

[28:13] were live. And I was just like your I go I'm like your producer lied to me. He goes oh like we don't lie we don't make deals. I'm like yeah you do. And so we got into a big shouting match and I never went back. That happened to me on NPR and it's the last time I was on NPR as I was walking out I said to the producer don't ever call me again. And they haven't. But yeah please come on Saturday morning it's going to be great. We're going to talk about Gina Haspel. I'd just written

[28:43] this op-ed in the Washington Post about Gina Haspel being you know the mother of the torture program. And and so I go on and it's this guy was it Stevensky he has he has spinal stenosis so he can't sit. Stevensky. So he's standing the whole time. And so I'm looking up at him which was weird. I mean nobody would know that cuz it's radio anyway but but it was weird. So as soon as we go on the air and it's live he attacks.

[29:16] And um Wow. Yeah. He attacked my piece and said that ProPublica had written an article based on my piece and then they they retracted one of the sentences and like don't you do any due diligence? And I said I published in the post what the CIA permitted me to publish in the post. I'm not the fact checker for the Washington Post or for ProPublica. And he just kept coming in. So I went

[29:47] right back at him. And where were you? Where were you when I was blowing the whistle on the torture program? Because I don't remember NPR saying anything about it. I don't remember NPR calling the CIA to task or the Bush administration to task. I said, where were you when I was arrested? What about the other eight whistleblowers arrested during the Obama administration? Where was NPR? Nowhere to be found. And then I got up. I walked out. It was supposed to be the whole half hour. I

[30:17] was in there 5 minutes. I got up. I said, don't ever call me again and I walked out. You were right. I I I embarrassed them. And then as soon as I walked out of the building, my phone just blew up. I didn't realize it. Like all of my friends and acquaintances listen to NPR on Saturday mornings. And they were like, oh my god, you gave it to him. It was incredible. Good for you. >> [laughter] >> I I guarantee you I'll never be called by NPR ever again. And I haven't been. No. Well, NPR is you know, NPR. Let me just

[30:48] add my story. Um this is how Ted and I actually became friends. I was president of the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists. And Ted, this will surprise you John, did a controversial cartoon. Making fun of terror widows. Um and look it up. It's actually an excellent cartoon. In hindsight, he was actually right, but it was it seemed pretty raw at the time. So Alan Keyes, remember him, uh was um was had to had to been was at Fox or God, I can't remember if it was Fox or CNN. But they asked me to come on as the president of the cartoonists association. I tried to be

[31:20] nuanced. Not >> [laughter] >> Always a good idea. Because I started to say, while I don't agree with what Ted drew, he has And Alan had Congressman King from Long Island. I can't remember >> him too. He was another troublemaker. >> What a what a what a dick. Because all I did was I could not finish >> [clears throat] >> my highly nuanced explanation. I said, while I didn't agree with what Ted And that's all I had to say. And they WERE JUST LIKE, AND IF YOU >> [clears throat] >> I went back and looked at the transcripts because they post back then

[31:51] they posted the transcripts on the show. And there are whole blocks that say indecipherable. Indecipherable. [laughter] All three of us were yelling at each other. It was the worst television you could possibly have would have been worse radio. Um because they just started screaming at me and started telling that Ted should be arrested, should be thrown in jail. Um Alan Keyes said on that show and and wrote very clearly, decipherably in a column, that I should be shot. Yes. >> He he alluded to that as well. Well, that that that afternoon, I get a phone

[32:22] call from one Ted Rall, who I didn't know very well at the time. And [laughter] you just gave me so much crap for doing such a shitty job. And I actually responded saying, yeah, you're absolutely right. I wasn't I you know, I I came in with my chin up and an apology, which was a stupid. It should have just been, you know, anyone who thinks that he can't doesn't have a right to say this is full you know, should be should leave the country, you know. >> Yeah, yeah, you don't get into that whole like when you're you know, you're there to defend you're just there there to defend free speech. Like what I think is neither here nor there, right? Like

[32:53] this is like and you defend the cartoon and and the cartoonist. You just say like >> Yes. I did. And Ted to his Ted to his credit forgave me. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but also you apologized and you know, I melt when it comes to an apology, you know, like if if that [ __ ] Austin Beutner ever picked up the phone and called me, former the guy who [ __ ] me at the LA Times and said, you know, I'm really [ __ ] sorry. Let's sit down and talk about it. I would melt. I would. I mean cuz nobody ever does that.

[33:24] One of the guys who was responsible for putting me in prison, like directly, one of one of three people directly responsible for putting me in prison, called me. I was out of prison for a couple of weeks and he called me and he said he wanted to apologize. It's been bothering him since I first got in trouble and can he invite me for coffee? And I said, of course. And I met him at a hotel. He apologized profusely. We had coffee. And I never saw him again. Which is perfectly fine. I accepted his apology. That's all I wanted. We don't

[33:55] have to be pals or anything. We don't have to go out together and hang out. But it's hard to apologize sometimes. And and he did. He made the effort. Yeah, you can't go back in time. I'm not expecting that. >> Yep. So So let me ask you John, how are you handling um dealing with internet fame? I mean you know, as Ted mentioned at the top of the show, a billion downloads of all your videos. No, I mean seriously, you actually took a you took a tack that I really respect. And that is you went on every podcast when everyone was like, oh it's a podcast about some [ __ ] in

[34:27] his basement, blah blah blah. I even did high school kids podcasts. Did you really? See, I think that's Trump did that in '16. He did in '20 and in '24. He was on every podcast. >> work out? Oh wait. Yeah. And well, Kamala refused to be on like Rogan wanted her on. And she said, well, she can only come on for half an hour and we need to know the questions. Well, [ __ ] you. That's right. You're you're you're asking to be president of the United States. >> she needed the list of suggested answers. >> responses.

[34:57] >> [laughter] >> Unbelievable. But how are you dealing with it? That's got to be I mean seriously, you because now I have to believe you walk through public and people recognize you. You're recognizable guy. And how are you handling that? Are you I mean you are you enjoying it? Is it a pain in the ass? No, I I I embrace it. People are so nice. It's incredible. They relate to me, but there's one like theme that runs through this. Like they they like the stories. They they like the way this Gen Z kid

[35:28] like made lasers shoot out of my eyes and made gave me the Alvin and the Chipmunks voice. That's all fun and games, but there's this theme that runs through it. And that is that they respect me for telling the truth. Mhm. And so that's what I've clung to. Um I I rather enjoy being recognized. And it's not just, you know, walking down the street in DC. I told Ted earlier this morning, I found myself kind of lost and disoriented yesterday in in the Hanover,

[35:59] Germany uh uh train station. And this kid runs up to me, a Lebanese refugee. And he's like, I watch you and Ted every day. Oh wow. >> news from you and Ted. What can I help you do? You need to find the right train tracks. I'm like, yeah, I don't know where the heck I'm going. I don't speak German and everything's in German. So he he helped me. That happens every day. I was in Kuwait a month ago or so, a month and a half ago. I walk out. I get I did a podcast. I walk out

[36:31] of the building and this guy stops, looks at me and he's like, John, are you John? And I said, yes. He says, I'm Ali Reza from North Macedonia. I listen to you every day. I'm like, in North Macedonia? He said, yes. I'm Albanian. I used to listen to you in Albania. It's like, great. Awesome. So I feel like I'm having an impact, but it's only since things went viral about 3 weeks

[37:03] ago that I realized how much of an impact and how it's it's global really. I I've even been hired by members of two different royal families to consult for them because of what I did. You know, ethics in their own intelligence operations. So things have really seriously turned around. And we talked about apologies a moment ago.

[37:34] I got a I got an email through eBay. Right? You know how if you're if you're a seller on eBay or a buyer, you have an account and people can message you through eBay. So I get a message through eBay. Is this John Kiriakou, the whistleblower? Wow. And I said, yes, it is. And he says, long long email from this guy. He's like, I'm one of the FBI agents who arrested you. And I've had trouble sleeping ever since we did it. He said, I want you to know how ashamed I am for what I did. We were

[38:06] ordered by people at the very top of the food chain to do this to you. You know, on and on and on about how sorry he is. He's no longer at the FBI. He's the third FBI agent to apologize. >> And that is how it worked. That's totally how it worked. It was not their idea. They were ordered to do it. >> I don't blame you guys. I know exactly how this happened. I know John Brennan did this to me and Eric Holder. They were the ones that did this to me. I don't blame you guys. But yeah, I mean

[38:38] now that I'm sort of recognized as this truth teller, I feel like I've I've come full circle. And then people are looking back on 2012 thinking, oh that that stuff should never have happened to him. Oh, there's no question. I mean anyone any rational person. Thank you. That's becoming fewer and fewer of us, but no, that should never have happened for crying out loud. What happens next? What do you I mean I know you have a weekend show on RT. Is that correct? Yeah, I have a weekend show on RT. They just

[39:10] changed the name to Deep State, The Deep State or I think it's just Deep State. Everything's you're all you're all into alliteration with D's, right? Yeah, it's not working out. Yeah. >> Just don't be deep six. I just go out with God forbid. >> [laughter] >> Um but it because of It started with Rogan and then ending with the virality of of these clips, um I was signed by the Creative Artists Agency, CAA. And they're going to represent me

[39:43] now in everything. >> Yes. >> Congratulations. It's in books and and Hollywood and consulting and licensing. I'm getting a lot of advertising pitches now. Really? Can May I ask what? Cuz I'd just be curious what Um today I got like six. Three of them were for different pharmaceuticals of all things. Um one was for a a vineyard. Um uh one was for men's clothing line and one was uh Parker Warby Parker.

[40:16] That's your second glasses one. My second glasses one cuz I wear Tom Ford frames. I just happened to like choose the Tom Ford frames and somebody from Tom Ford recognized them as Tom Ford frames. So do I want to do a print layout for Tom Ford? I said absolutely yes. That's awesome. That is so fun. How does that work? Do you have to Can like if you do glass Can if you do Tom Ford, can you not do Warby Parker or vice versa? >> Correct. Yeah. >> Yeah, I would imagine there's a exclusivity. The other thing though is what's I'm just trying to think of the ad campaign. It's like, you know,

[40:48] what's my secret? >> [laughter] >> Well, I'll tell you what. I started doing um Cameos a couple of weeks ago. >> Yeah, Ted told me. And they're going just gangbusters. Like I've actually set a record for the number of Cameos um that any one person has done. I I've defeated George Santos. I'm now the Cameo King. >> [laughter] >> John, you're making me feel so inferior. John referred me to Cameo.

[41:19] I have zero requests. Zero. >> It's coming. It's coming. So um John has to get up early in the morning to do them. >> I do. I actually set my alarm at 5:00 in the morning to get up and try to catch up on the Cameos. Like right now I have 88 in queue. Yeah. Woah. >> got to get done. So it's kind of weird. The the the CEO of Cameo is flying to DC to have lunch with me next week. Wow. It's the craziest thing.

[41:49] >> You're the Are you the number one biggest person on Cameo in of all time? I I'm I'm going to be the number one of all time soon. Another week or two of this, yeah. I'm the only person who's who's made like a There's a certain like threshold of money every day for five consecutive days. Nobody else has done it in the history of Cameo. The people who who ask you to do the Cameo, do they write the copy for you or um is that it? >> Sometimes. Is there any copy you like you won't do?

[42:21] Yeah. There are a couple things that I I've said no to. Like one one guy wanted me to endorse his meme coin and I'm like, absolutely not. I have enough trouble in my life. I don't need the SEC on my on my back on top of it. So no, I'm not doing that. Um and then a couple people Like some of them are really cute. Like this 11th grader asked me if I would endorse him for junior class president at Granada Hills High School in California. I said absolutely. So most of the time >> What if he What if he's a What if he's a

[42:51] little shitty kid and and he's and you endorse the wrong kid for that important race? Hey man, >> [laughter] >> his his $198 did the talking. >> [gasps] >> I mean, are you so You've met You touched on the legal troubles. Are your legal troubles over now? Are you still wrestling with some residual [ __ ] You know, knock on wood, Scott. I was I was wrestling with residual [ __ ] until a week ago. Wow. A week

[43:22] ago and I was able to finally get it all behind me. After all these years, it's been 14 years plus. 14 years and 2 months. Finally got it behind me. Ugh. Yeah. Ugh, I'm so sorry. That just I mean Thank you. But you know what though? I can't help but to think that that this was just, you know, if you believe in God, this was the plan, the test. If you believe in fate, this was what I was fated to to do. It's just This is just the way it is. And so I I have to embrace it. There was a

[43:52] person with whom I was once very close and with whom I share three children. Um who I'm forbidden from mentioning by court order, who once gave me really really wonderful advice. She said, this is right after my arrest. She said, you have to embrace this. You can't hide from it. Mhm. You have to embrace it and you have to keep telling your side of the story over and over and over again because eventually they're going to move on to their next victim. And they did.

[44:24] It was Ed Snowden. If you keep telling your story, your side is going to be the side of record. And she was right. And then even my brother said to me once, days after my arrest, he said, I know you can't see this right now, but this is going to turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you. And now all these years later, it's finally coming to pass. John, in what way would you say you're a you I mean, obviously So in what way

[44:55] would you say if I'd met you 15, 20 years ago, how would I know what differences would I notice between the your personality then [clears throat] and and your personality now? People have told me that I have I don't see this in myself. I consider myself to be a very happy, well-adjusted person. People tell me, as recently as the day before yesterday, that there's an underlying sadness that didn't exist before. I'm not really sure exactly what they mean when they

[45:25] say that, but I've gotten that from several people independently of one another. Um politically, Ted, I was way way more mainstream. Okay. >> Um You know, I >> Were you like a Democrat or what would you say or what? I was a Democrat and a pretty sort of, you know, down the line. Well, you know, this isn't my guy, but I'm a Democrat, so I'm going to fall in line. Sure. >> But that That Those days are gone. Gone.

[45:57] I'll never ever do that again. You know, I I've told the story in my first book that my grandfather, until the day he died, um had a framed picture of Franklin Roosevelt on the top of the TV. When I was a little kid, I thought that was a relative of ours. I still have that picture. Oh, that's that's adorable. My grandfather had one in his garage over his workbench. See? I still have it. I'm going to put it in my office when I finally get an office. Um but

[46:28] you know, where Joe Biden certainly wasn't mine. I mean, I I didn't vote for Joe Biden anyway, but um I I would have fallen into line 15 years ago. And that just is never ever going to happen again. Not unless you know, the McGovern people take over the party again. Yeah, that's not going to happen. They're They're being fought tooth and tong the far left >> ever happen, Scott. The Democrats came up with the most anti-democratic system that's ever existed in American politics

[47:00] and that's the super delegate. Disgusting. >> they don't give a [ __ ] who Democratic voters vote for. The super delegates are going to make the the choice. And you know when that happened was McGovern in '72. >> Because of McGovern. Well, no, it was actually because of Humphrey in '68. They were because McCarthy had won the many of the primaries. He actually had booted LBJ out of the race. >> Yeah. >> And then they come to the convention and they say, well, you know, Gene, thanks thanks for everything, man. We're giving it to Hubert. Yeah, you've done you've

[47:30] done your part. Well, Well, I wouldn't put it that well. uproar so much uproar in the DNC that they decided that they're going to open the first system up. Just, you know, really just let it run the way, oh, I don't know, democracy should be run, which is, you know. And so McGovern People forget in '72, while the race was between This is great history. It was between McGovern and George Wallace. Wallace had just won the Florida primary, which was huge. He was campaigning in Maryland when he was

[48:00] shot. That's right. >> continued, could you imagine what that convention would have been like? >> [laughter] >> That would have split the party into two. Yeah, well, it kind of did. And McGovern gets the nomination. Um he because he won the most votes. Yeah. And the Democratic Party, the powers that be, went back and said, holy [ __ ] we can't let that happen twice. And that's why [laughter] And that's how we got Jimmy Carter. Um Mo Udall was in '76 was one of the >> That's right. Mo Udall was actually a terrific

[48:32] candidate. I mean, he was terrific. >> Terrific. You know, I got to meet him in 1983 or four. I was I was the president of the George Washington University College Democrats. Uh >> And we invited Mo Udall to come and speak. And he said, do you mind if I if I prepare a formal speech. We knew what he was talking about. He was thinking of running for president again in '84. Oh. >> to I want to do a formal speech just to get reactions. And we're like, oh my

[49:03] god, he's going to announce his candidacy. Wow. So he came and gave the speech minus that last line, yes, I'm running, no, I'm not running. But the context was clear that he was not running for president. And it was just after that that he announced that he had Parkinson's disease. But uh he came with Cliff Robertson, the Academy Award winning actor, and his wife, Dina Merrill, the Academy Award winning actress. And um

[49:33] it they just arrived in a taxi and, you know, came into the little theater that held 250 people and we did the speech and then we all went out to you remember Hamburger Hamlet in Georgetown? We all went to Hamburger Hamlet together and had cheeseburgers. >> [laughter] >> No, he was a great guy. I mean people in Tucson still talk about how it was perfect. >> Really a decent a very decent human being. My father we was a general manager of a TV station in Madison, Wisconsin when the Wisconsin primary in '76 was that was that was the battleground. That was the one it was

[50:04] good. That was a big one. >> It was actually bigger in '80 between Carter and Kennedy. That's when Carter had to win Wisconsin so he leaked that we were developing a stealth bomber. And just barely beat Kennedy. That was the B-2B or no that was the >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like it was long rumored but he came out and said yeah we we need this to fight the Soviets and then Kennedy lost the Wisconsin primary. >> More DNC skullduggery too. They changed they changed the the the rules to that the so that the delegates

[50:36] were no longer they were originally they you know going to be unbound. And so that like if something happened Like a hostage crisis let's say or high inflation [laughter] let's say that would cause a change of circumstances between the primaries and the and the general or a convention that they you know they have the flexibility to choose someone who is a little more palatable but you know the party is like yeah we're not going to let Ted Kennedy be the nominee. Yeah, Ted was a

[51:06] Kennedy delegate by the way. Well, my father I've just to finish the story was a general manager of a TV station Madison so all the candidates trundled through and would you know give my dad a few minutes in his office to chat. Um he talked about George Wallace just hated George Wallace. He said he just exudes a ugly anger. Uh Jimmy Carter he said he wasn't really there. He just was just but you know he was a sort of that just not there. Mo Udall my dad a lifelong Republican uh really thought the world of of Mo Udall

[51:37] and actually said you know who he reminds me of? He reminds me of Abraham Lincoln. Wow. Wow. Um um and I forget who else Frank Church was running. Um I'm trying to think this is before Jerry Brown jumped in. Yeah. Birch Bayh from Indiana, Frank Church right Jimmy Carter God everybody was running in '76. Wilbur Mills ran for a minute. Who did? Wilbur Mills. OH DID HE RUN? >> [laughter]

[52:08] >> I HAD TOTALLY FORGOTTEN. OH [clears throat] MY God he did run. >> him out of the reflecting pool at the Tidal Basin Bombshell. Yeah. The Tidal Basin Bombshell. We are the only three people on the planet I pretty much who remember what know what the hell we're talking about. [laughter] Yeah, she was Wilbur Mills was head just real quick for our listeners Wilbur Mills was the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee in the House and he had his caught having an affair with a stripper whose title was the Tidal Basin Bombshell. Um [laughter] yeah I know They named her the

[52:39] Washington Fringe Benefit. He hired her he hired her despite the fact that she did she he hired her as a secretary despite the fact that she couldn't type and she later testified that she barely knew how to answer the phone. >> [laughter] >> There wasn't anything really wrong with that. Um looking I mean this has been great. Thank you by the way. Real quick we need to touch on Cuba because that was um your friends. I listen to NPR because we don't have a 24-hour news station here. It's all talk and the last thing I want to hear when I

[53:09] wake up is like well you know because liberals want TO EAT YOUR DOGS. UM so Eat your dogs. Yeah, exactly. I suck it up listen to NPR in the morning and Cuba seems to be in the crosshairs now apparently before we finish with Iraq. Um you thoughts? Just are there too many to mention or Ted and I were talking about this a couple of days ago. I went to Cuba three years ago. I I'd always wanted to go. I always wanted to see it with my own eyes and then I ended up getting invited to Cuba

[53:41] um to participate in the international book fair because my first two books were translated into Spanish and then included in the in the Cuban National Library. So I went it was kind of a big deal. We got to meet the president of Cuba and a bunch of different people. Um there were several things that struck me. One was I mentioned to Ted the other day I'm not a big fan of squash. I'll eat it if I have to right? But it's squash squash squash three meals a day every single day squash and finally I'm like

[54:13] what's up with squash guys? How much squash can one person eat? And the waiter said to me the American embargo includes food. So we can only eat what we can grow. And it's squash season buddy. Yeah, the American people don't know that. I don't know that they would like riot in the streets if they did. Yeah, no I know they wouldn't. But but they would be a little bothered I think if they knew that these sanctions mean no

[54:43] food no medical equipment. >> stuff Yeah. Another thing that struck me was was the overt friendliness of everybody just randomly people in the marketplace or on the street or wherever literally everybody in Cuba has a relative in Florida. They love the United States. They hate our government but they love the United States. They'd love to come here. They

[55:13] would love it if we were friends and we could trade and everybody would be happy. They just don't understand this blockade after all these years more than 65 years of total blockade. They don't get it. We're pacing ourselves. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Any day now it's going to work. Yes. So you know the the the comments from the president the other day that Cuba will be mine he said. I can do whatever I want. That's like exactly the opposite. Yeah,

[55:43] I'm going to take it. That's exactly the opposite of the message we should be sending. Cuba is Cuba is a failed state because we failed it right? We forced it into failure. Okay, we win. Let's declare victory. We won. By the way I love that I love that whole thing like oh you know I heard Marco Rubio the other day saying you know their economy sucks communism just doesn't work. Well, we don't really know if communism would work do we right? I mean you've imposed trade those sanctions for 60 years. You know maybe if you stay out of the

[56:14] way then we'd know if communism could work. Yeah. So what are you what what do you suspect what hijinks do you suppose suspect the Trump administration to be launching against Cuba if if they can get their asses out of Iran which I'm not sure that's a possibility. >> No yeah I agree with you. I think we're stuck there. I think that this um this embargo on fuel is is going to be what does them in. Because they were getting their gas or their oil from Venezuela. Before that they were getting it from the Russians

[56:44] and then with the sanctions on the the Russian oil and gas industry they started getting it from Venezuela. Then we overthrow the Venezuelan government and grab Maduro. Now I mean I'm sure you've seen the footage there are literally no cars on the road. Everybody's either walking or bicycling. That's it. So if anything is going to push them over the edge I think it's going to be that which is funny to me because at the CIA we used to say all the time that the policy was just wrong.

[57:14] The embargo is wrong. You want to overthrow the the Cuban government? Open a McDonald's. When the first McDonald's opens that whole government falls apart. Encourage yeah I always used to say just encourage tons of tourism. You know how lots of Americans just come there and hang out and talk to people and they'll be like oh what's it like in you know back in Miami? What's it like in New York? Yeah. And they all know because they all have relatives in New

[57:44] York and Miami. We've had a guest on the show who's worked in you know liberating Cuba politics for years Ricardo Aparicio an attorney formerly with GE and he still has friends and family down there and the the story he's telling in the last few weeks it's horrific. It's absolutely horrific and they they lost power I think what yesterday I mean the whole country. And that kills that literally kills people. Yeah, well People can't get to hospitals. They you know they can't doctors can't operate. >> Breathing machines stop working.

[58:16] Incubators stop working. Yeah. People get stuck in elevators have heart attacks whatever. Before you mentioned your kids and I just want to but I want to come back to the the internet fame stuff. How are they how old are your kids and I'm not asking other than Oh let's see. They are 33 30 21 19 and 14. How are they handling cuz it's not you have an unusual name it's Greek and so everyone thinks my name is Greek it's not it's Lithuanian actually. Um I thought it was with with

[58:48] the IS. Yeah, that every every name is so funny to talk to Lithuanians cuz everyone has that damn IS at the end of their name. But how your kids handling the fame? I mean are they getting any residual kickback or they do they think it's hilarious that Their friends are fascinated by it. Fascinated. I bet. I bet. My kids my kids never cared that I was a cartoonist. Their friends thought it was awesome. I mean they would they would just they would just like trip over themselves you know just cartoons that's so cool and my kids are looking at me going that [ __ ] really cuz

[59:19] >> [laughter] >> You haven't seen him walk through the house scratching his ass. Like three three weeks ago my niece called like 7:00 in the morning and she said Uncle John you're blowing up on TikTok. I said why? And she goes I don't know. And then it just it just went crazy from there. So, do they care at all or do they just pretty much like, ah, it's just a >> they're they're like they're amused by it. A little bit perplexed. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. No, they are. To tell you the truth, Scott, I've been telling these

[59:49] same stories for the last, you know, what? 17 years. Well, that's the part when I was talking to about this yesterday and I'm like >> 19 19 years. >> I'm like, the guy got out of jail, got out of prison 11 years ago, languishing in obscurity, um, you know, can can barely can't make ends meet and then and no one cares about the story, right? No one cares about the torture program, no one cares about, you know, no one's ever been held to account, nothing matters and then suddenly Tik Tok puts you on

[1:00:20] the map. It's Yeah. I mean, it is idiocracy. It is. It's crazy. But, you know what? These things end as quickly as they begin. So, I'm embracing it. It's going to be a load of fun and then when it goes away, I'll go on to more serious things. Enjoy the ride, for sure. Oh, yeah. No, this is awesome. I mean, you know, we talked about Psy from Gangnam Style. He's still Psy. He'll always Exactly. He'll always be Psy. There's a Wikipedia page. You can look back on it from years from now and and

[1:00:52] say that guy was somebody. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Who who wrote your your, um, Wikipedia page because someone wrote mine and they got some things wrong and I tried to edit it. Yeah. >> And it says, well, and then, you know, at the end of it it says, well, what authority do you have or what's your I go, because it's, you know, me and they said, no, you can't no. >> I I don't know who in the world wrote my Wikipedia page, but there's like one >> No, it's not. And there's one egregious error that that friends of mine have reached

[1:01:23] out and said, hey, that this Wikipedia thing, it says you were convicted of espionage. I'm like, what? I was never convicted of espionage. Um John, you're famous enough now that you could probably call Jimmy Wales and have it fixed. Yeah, that's what I'll do. I I have I have two friends who are like registered Wikipedia editors. So, I'm going to I'm going to talk to them and have them There you go. Yeah, I mean, people can keep [ __ ] around with it, yeah. There's a major mistake in mine, too. Um, John, thank you so much. I don't want to keep you any longer than you than we asked for. You have 88 Cameos to

[1:01:56] get to. That's right. It's true. 90 92 now. >> Holy [ __ ] Four just in the last half hour. Wow. John, thank you so much. That's John Kiriakou, CIA whistleblower and my co-host on Deconstructed with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou, which airs Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time on YouTube and Rumble live and you'll also see, um, and you so we'll be back tomorrow John and I will be back tomorrow morning and you can, of course, stream it anytime. As always, the DMC America

[1:02:26] podcast comes to you at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Time every Thursday. Scott, always a pleasure and thanks for joining us. Thanks, man. Yeah, that was fun. What a great guy. Yeah, he's great. I see I I don't feel as bad that you're seeing another podcast behind my back. >> [laughter] >> It it's becoming a more of a poly relationship. >> [laughter] >> It's all about the talking. Not about the sex. All right. [laughter] How was the sex? I don't know how the sex We'll talk about it after. Yeah, we'll talk about it afterwards. Bye,

[1:02:57] everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. See you next week.
