Title: SILENCED (2014) - The War on Whistleblowers (Feature Documentary) w/ John Kiriakou Tom Drake
Show: jspione
Date: 2025-10-14
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7UXdr1l1lY
Duration: 1:42:34

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[00:23] Come on. >> In January of 2012, the FBI called me at home and said, "Can you come to the Washington field office Thursday at 10:00?" >> Okay. >> I said, "Absolutely." So, I went down to the Washington field office and they began asking me questions. Well, I've spent my entire adult life working with the FBI. So, the FBI needs my help. I'm happy to help. It wasn't until I was about an hour and

[00:56] 45 minutes into this interview that I realized, wait a minute, they're investigating me. >> We need to be honest with you. and they said, "Well, we need to be honest with you. We're executing a search warrant on your house right now as we speak, and we're seizing all of your electronics." >> What I experienced as a whistleblower sends the most chilling of messages about what the government can and I will emphasize will do when one speaks truth to and of power. >> There is information that the public in

[01:27] a functioning democracy has a right to know. What does it do to your whole body rails against it? >> Wordless wiretapping torture. We only know about that because of whistleblowers. >> I knew I could not remain silent. If I remain silent, I'd be complicit to the subversion of the Constitution. If I remain silent as a senior executive assigned to the National Security Agency, I would be an accessory to a

[01:58] crime. Historically, such people were forced to choose between their conscience and their career. But now the stakes are much higher. They risk their freedom and their lives. >> I did not commit a crime. I am going to trial and I'm going to prove myself innocent. I'm not the pushover that these guys think I am. I'm I'm as tough as they are and I'm going to fight.

[02:44] [Music] Wow. [Music]

[03:43] Oh, [Music] Sorry, they're all medals.

[04:13] >> John, did you get her? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Where's Max? >> He's sleeping. Sorry to wake you up, but it's dinner time.

[04:44] [Music] In my heart, I believe I'm going to win. My wife tells me every time I start to feel a little depressed, "You have the truth on your side." And she's right. I haven't done anything wrong. His name

[05:14] is John Cury, CIA undercover officer for 15 years. >> Did you feel comfortable with the techniques? >> Uh, frankly, no. And I elected to uh to forgo the training. >> I was the first CIA officer or former CIA officer to confirm the use of torture techniques against al-Qaeda prisoners. >> What is it like? Uh, you feel like you're choking or drowning. >> It was already in the news. The Washington Post, for example, had reported that the CIA had used torture techniques and Human Rights Watch had

[05:46] reported it and Amnesty International had reported it. So, in the back of my mind, I didn't think I was saying anything new. >> Would you call it torture? >> Um, I had never been on television in my life. I truly expected this to be a 10-minute interview that they whittle down to 15 seconds. Instead, he asked me about Abuazuba and about torture. And I think that uh water boarding is probably something that we shouldn't be in the business of doing. >> Why do you say that now? >> Because we're Americans and we're better than that.

[06:17] >> That interview became a major international story. I ended up getting calls from every network in America. The CIA filed a crimes report against me saying I had leaked classified information by admitting that waterboarding had taken place. Thank goodness that the Justice Department said that it was not classified and declined to pursue a case against me. And I think it's good that we're having a national debate about this. We should be debating this and Congress should be talking about it because I think as a country we have to decide if this is something that we want to do as a matter of policy. With that interview, I became

[06:48] a CIA dissident. >> Whether I knew it or not, whether I liked it or not, I was an outsider from that day onward. [Music] I'm fighting to have my September 10th country back.

[07:21] It's a very, very dangerous direction. the pendulum swung after 911 and instead of swinging back to some kind of equipoise, it just swung even further in the direction of secrecy. Um, and that includes overclassification, that includes a crackdown on whistleblowers, that includes secret signing statements, it includes shutting down lawsuits with the state secrets privilege. I mean, there's a whole bevy of secrecy tactics

[07:53] that the government uses. Every time you bring up civil liberties that have deteriorated or been tossed out completely in the name of national security, people think somehow you're siding with the terrorists. Oh, you want our country to suffer. Quite the opposite. People want our country to continue to live up to the ideals on which it was founded.

[08:24] It's not something you aspire to. This is not a career goal to become a whistleblower. It's not. It doesn't matter if it's in the public interest or not. They can they can pjoratively say it's leaking, unauthorized leaking. So, whistleblowers, it's clear, have become an endangered species, to say it that way. And you have a government who's decided that they need to become extinct. The last thing they want is people spilling the beans on what the

[08:54] government's doing under the rubric of secrecy and national security behind the scenes. To use the espionage act, it it is the harshest thing you can charge someone with. They were sending deliberately sending the strongest possible message. They set the target. They put the bullseye on me and said, "We're going to make an example of him. [Music]

[09:36] I was born in Louisiana. My father was a officer in the US Air Force. But the bulk of my growing up was actually in Vermont and that's where I went to high school. That's where I became a young adult. I was born and raised in a small town in western Pennsylvania, north of Pittsburgh in Amish country. I always had a fascination with international affairs. I was an avid um ham radio operator when I was a kid, for example. >> I grew up in Columbia, Maryland.

[10:09] I grew up in a a somewhat dysfunctional family and therefore at a very young age the concept of justice became very central to me. >> The attorney general had the authority to authorize it. I remember sitting in social studies class watching the Watergate hearings >> to authorize wiretapping and other related activity. Seeing these incredible violations of law and the

[10:40] Fourth Amendment, high crimes and misdemeanors as specified in the Constitution. No one was above the law, not even the president of the United States of America. >> I went to college in New England and law school. I dreamed of working at the Justice Department. You go into court and you have the impromater of the United States behind you and you get to wear the white hat and you get to always be on the right side of whatever you're arguing. So when I got the job at the Justice Department right out of law

[11:10] school, for me that was my dream job. >> I was mostly interested in the Middle East because when I was in high school, the Iran hostage crisis was ongoing and I thought I'm going to go to George Washington University. It's two blocks from the White House. >> I made a choice that I would join the Air Force for a few years as a crypto linguist. And a cryptologic linguist is someone who listens to communications of other countries in different languages. And the country that I specialized in was East Germany. >> My adviser, it turned out, was

[11:43] undercover as a professor. He was actually a CIA officer acting as what was then called a spotter. and he asked me if I was interested in working at the CIA. I said, "Sure, why not?" And I went through the process and found myself at the CIA. >> I went to the CIA for a short stint and then I became a government contractor, system software engineering from mid89 all the way through until 2001. February of 2001, I had just had me going through the Sunday edition of the

[12:13] Washington Post. And it's like, oh, interesting. NSA was actually looking to hire people in from the outside. Well, it's the call to serve your country and here is an opportunity at a very senior level. So, I applied. I was offered a position, took the oath to support and defend the Constitution for the fourth time. And the first day that I reported to the National Security Agency to my duty station uh was 9/11. I ended up joining a newly created ethics unit

[12:45] called the professional responsibility advisory office. We were there to keep you out of trouble rather than OPR, the office of professional responsibility that disciplines you when you do do something bad. We were there to render advice prospectively to help keep you from doing something unethical. The first couple of years were really amazing to get to form and grow this office. But after 911, there was definitely a sea change.

[13:18] There's pre 911. There's post 911. And what took place in those weeks and months just after 9/11 established the basis for everything else that happened. Everything.

[13:48] Everything changed in the intelligence community on September 11th. It took a few years for it to unwind and much of what was going on inside the country was done in absolute secrecy for the first four plus years. No one knew we're going to kill all of them.

[14:21] That was very much the feeling in the CIA after September 11th. Now, for many people, that wore off after a period of time. >> But for others inside the CIA, they never lost that that feeling that that belief that this was a war to the death, that there was no gray area between black and white. >> There was a lot of cutting corners. There were a lot of shortcuts going on. There were a lot of creative gymnastics going on. And that can be seen in in

[14:53] like the torture memos and the reasoning in those by my law school classmate John U. >> After 911, it became even more important to say just to get all the data it could no matter where it was. We just need it. And I was told that we just need it, Tom. We just need the data. It was crisis. But it became clear within a space of a few days this was not a normal crisis. I was in a meeting with with the person I reported to said that

[15:24] 911 was a gift to NSA. 911 is a gift. We're finally going to get all the money we've ever wanted from Congress. All of it and more. That whole counterterrorism effort, which was extraordinarily small prior to 911, all of a sudden grew by leaps and bounds after 911. George Tennant who at the time was the director of central intelligence. He issued an intelligence communitywide memo said whatever you got

[15:55] in the labs prototype test bed put into the fight cuz we need it. So I was tasked to go out to the ends of NSA to find those systems bring them to the attention of senior leadership so we could actually deploy them. One that I brought to their attention shortly after 911 was called Thin Thread. Thin Thread, I have to say, was an extraordinary program. They had a system ready for operational deployment well prior to 911, which by the way had built

[16:28] into it the FISA rules. It absolutely protected US person information. Absolutely. Okay. It was designed that way. That solution was rejected. and I said, "Why is NSA rejecting the thin thread solution?" And I wasn't going to give up because I knew something was a miss. I wrote a formal memo expressing my my greatest

[16:59] alarm. I also had informed her that I was hearing very disturbing information that NSA could be in probable violation of FISA and the Fourth Amendment. I had people who came to me in private who were telling me, "Tom, why are we taking equipment that we use to monitor the communications of foreign nations and turning on ourselves?" I thought, "We can't surveil Americans without warrants."

[17:31] I was told, "You have a problem. Speak to the office general counsel." >> Yes. I have a phone conversation with a senior attorney assigned officer council. >> Right. >> Then I heard the following words. NSA has become the executive agent for the program. It's been reviewed by all the attorneys. The White House has approved it. It's all legal. As soon as he said, "It's all legal,"

[18:05] the hair stood up on the back of my neck. What I didn't know at that time is that NSA under General Michael V. Hayden had entered into a secret agreement with the White House. A very small number of people even knew about it. But what's crucial here is that equipment that was traditionally forward foreign facing outward facing was now being turned on our own country. That Pandora's box had been opened up.

[18:37] We would now instrument the United States of America and we would treat this nation as the equivalent of a foreign country for the purposes of draget blanket electronic surveillance on a vast scale. When I was arrested, it was national front page news. Uh Fox News even put on their ticker, ex CIA officer gives

[19:09] intelligence to al-Qaeda. >> This morning, a former CIA officer is accused of repeatedly leaking classified secrets to reporters. Investigators say he potentially put the lives of covert officers at risk. >> These are very serious charges for the ex-CIA intel officer. >> Prosecutors say he told three journalists the role of a CIA officer in the capture of a top al-Qaeda leader. >> Abu Zabeda reportedly waterboarded more than 80 times. A controversial interrogation technique. >> A senior person at the Heritage Foundation called me a traitor in an

[19:41] op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle. I I forced myself to read some of these articles and in every one of these articles, Jesseline Raak was quoted and I thought, "Wow, this woman gets it." That there's a difference between leaking and whistleblowing. That what I blew the whistle on was government illegality. And I thought, I have to meet this woman. You become a whistleblower by operation of law when you make a disclosure that

[20:11] you reasonably believe evidence is fraud, waste, abuse, or illegality. When you look in the dictionary and the synonyms for whistleblower are things like snitch, backstabber, there are all these negative connotations that go with you bucking the system. You're not a team player. You're a traitor because that is the ultimate label. What's even more interesting is that they brought up the word whistleblower. >> I'm not a criminal defense lawyer. What

[20:41] I do is represent whistleblowers and often work in tandem with criminal defense lawyers on these espionage act cases. >> Judge Brinkma specifically warned them not to dump discovery on us on the eve of the trial. >> In Kuryaku's case, the government's ticked off that he called water boarding torture. that he revealed torture as a program and not some rogue pastime and that he wrote a book in which he's very critical of CIA's torture and the

[21:15] behavior of the FBI. That's what the government's really mad about. >> John Kiryak was a CIA intelligence officer from 1990 to 2004. He is charged with violating the Espionage Act by passing classified. >> A journalist called John and asked him to confirm a name which he did which is routinely done by former agency officials. And for that they charged him with the

[21:47] Espionage and Intelligence Identity Protection Act counts. The Espionage Act is this arcane 1917 law that is meant to go after spies, not whistleblowers. It was inconceivable that you would use such a heavyhanded, out of scope, arcane law to go after someone. I thought we figured that out 40 years ago with Dan Ellburg and his case

[22:18] when Tom Drake was indicted under the Espionage Act. I thought it was a strange oneoff though 4 months later Steven Kim an analyst at the State Department was also indicted. At that point, I looked back and realized that Sky Shami Liitz the year before had plead guilty, was under a different part of the Espionage Act. But there were starting to be a pattern. When you look at the totality of it, you

[22:50] have Shami Liwitz of the FBI contract linguist, Tom Drake of the NSA, Steven Kim of the State Department, Jeff Sterling of the CIA, John Kuryaku of the CIA, and Bradley Manning Army. And you realize for Obama to have six of these on his watch and they are all of people who are in the national security or intelligence fields. >> A breach at the nation's top security

[23:22] agency. >> A young army private is now being formally charged in connection with leaked video. >> There are common threads of government overreach, secrecy, and trying to cover up some of our worst sins as a country. Whether it was a war crime or whether it was secret domestic surveillance or whether it was torture. >> Steven Jin Wu Kim accused of violating the Espionage Act. >> Charged with repeatedly leaking classified secrets. >> Leaking classified information.

[23:53] >> Top secret information. >> Disclosing classified information. >> According to the federal indictment, Thomas Drake was >> It's the most serious charge that can be leveled against an American. It's saying you are an enemy of the state. Why use that? To send a very chilling chilling message to people to keep quiet. [Music] After September 11th, I became the chief

[24:25] of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan. I was told on my first day to come up with the standard operating procedure for taking down a terrorist safe house. So I I literally sat at a desk with a legal pad thinking, well, how how am I going to do this? What would what would be the first thing I I would want to do if I was going to take down a safe house? Well, I would want it to be dark. So, let's say 2:00 in the morning will do it. So, I wrote 0200 at the top of the page. And then little by little, I came up with this plan. All right.

[24:56] >> Finally, we got a report from headquarters that Abu Zubeda was somewhere in Pakistan. Now, at the time, we thought that Abu Zubeda was the third ranking person in al-Qaeda. And all we knew was that he was somewhere in Pakistan, but Pakistan's the size of Texas. He made one mistake that allowed us to narrow his location down to 14 different sites. So, we brought in a large team from headquarters, half CIA, half FBI. We brought in weapons and electronics and

[25:28] walkie-talkies and we hit all 14 sites at exactly the same time and he happened to be in one of the houses. He tried to escape by jumping from the roof of his house to the roof of the neighboring house and the Pakistanis shot him three times in the stomach, the groin and the thigh. And he was very gravely wounded. He was out of it for a day and a half before he finally came out of a coma, but I was the first person to speak to

[25:59] him. At first, he asked for a glass of red wine and then a couple hours later, he asked me to smother him with a pillow. Once he sort of had his bearings and he realized, "Oh my god, the Americans have me." He wanted to know what was going to happen to him, where he was going to be sent. He was he was very frightened. Um I think of of the unknown. I didn't know

[26:29] where he was going to go and I didn't know that he was going to be tortured. I didn't have a need to know. He would recite poetry to me that he had written. He cried at the thought of, he said, never knowing the joy of fatherhood, never knowing the touch of a woman. I remember telling him, "I should hate you and I should want to kill you and I don't." I said, "You're pathetic." I mean, he was just a young guy. He wasn't

[26:59] even 30 years old. And all he did was cry. And I remember saying to a colleague of mine, "This is the fearsome al-Qaeda. this is what we've been so worried about and so frightened of. It was a revelation to me. They're just guys. They're just, and not even that, they're just young, illiterate guys that had nothing else to do. And believe me when I say 99% of them had never read the Quran. They weren't true believers. They they hadn't pledged feelalty to

[27:32] Osama bin Laden. They just wanted to get out of that village in Yemen and maybe make a couple of bucks. [Music] It made me think the mission wasn't all it was cracked up to be. And then a colleague came in and said, "Eadquarters is sending in a private jet to pick him up and take him to his next location." At about 3:00 in the morning, we wheeled him out. He was so upset he asked me to hold his hand. He asked if we were going to kill him, and I said, "No, no, we've

[28:03] been looking for you for a long time. In fact, I said, "You're going to get the best medical care that the US government has to offer." And so the doctor gave him a shot of demoral and it knocked him out and we loaded him onto this private jet. One of the guys who had flown out to escort him to his onward location, got off the plane. The guy was dressed completely in black, black mask, black hat, black sweater, and he said my name. And he said,

[28:33] "John." And I said, "Who are you?" And he lifted up his mask and he was a former supervisor of mine at headquarters. And he said, "What are you doing here?" And I said, "Oh, I'm chief of counterterrorism." I said, "What are you doing here?" He said, "I'm going to take your prisoner onward." He said, "Who is he anyway?" And I said, "I'm sorry, man. You don't have a need to know." And I said, "Where are you taking him?" And the guy said, "I'm sorry, man. you don't have a need to know.

[29:04] And I said, well, safe flight. And the plane took off and I never saw him again. When I returned to headquarters from Pakistan, I was told that the CIA had begun a program that they were calling enhanced interrogation techniques. And did I want to be trained in the use of these enhanced interrogation techniques? Uh, I had a visceral problem with it. First of all, let's call it what it is.

[29:34] It's torture. They can they can call it whatever euphemism they want, but it's torture. So, I went back to the counterterror center and I said, I have a problem with this and I don't want to be involved. And then I heard rumors that we had created this system of secret prisons around the world. that even the heads of state in these countries didn't know that we had these secret prisons there. That these were deals struck between the head of the CIA and the head of whatever that country's service was.

[30:07] These weren't meant to be permanent facilities. They were just meant to extract information where we didn't have to worry about laws or human rights. But, you know, those of us who weren't read into these programs only got this in bits and pieces. I had no idea how extensive the secret prison system was until a couple of years after I left the agency and I read about it in the press

[30:39] because we're Americans and we're better than that. But at the time, you didn't feel that way. At the time I was so angry and I wanted so much to help disrupt future attacks on the United States that I felt it was the only thing we could do. >> And with Zabeta, you think that was successful? >> It was. I had been misinformed by the CIA. >> The CIA told those of us in headquarters that they had waterboarded Abu Zuba one time that he had cracked and that he had

[31:10] provided actionable intelligence. He answered every question just like I'm sitting here speaking to you. >> So in your view, the water boarding broke him. >> I think it did. Yes. >> And did it make a difference in terms of >> It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks. That turned out to be untrue. And we know it was untrue because in 2009, the CIA Inspector General's report was released indicating that Abu Zubeta had been waterboarded 83 times.

[31:42] and still did not provide actionable intelligence. Believe me, for the life of me, I wish I could take that back. But I talked about the issue with the information that I had at the time, and the information was just simply incorrect. Abuzza may never have been an al-Qaeda member. Now, in retrospect, we're finding out. He may have been somebody who supported al-Qaeda's goals. He may have been someone who was a professional

[32:13] logistician where he was helping them procure medicine or false documents. We don't really know. But he was not the senior al-Qaeda official that the CIA and NSA and the White House wanted us to believe. >> So I actually like vac everything was vacuumed out. I laid down this. >> My husband was incredibly supportive.

[32:43] >> And so I think that was a saving grace. >> When all this horrible stuff was going on, I could go home and there was sort of this safe haven. Bye. >> You know, I promised myself when I was going through this that if I ever got out of this mess, I would dedicate my life to representing whistleblowers.

[33:14] whistleblowers [Music] come in here and they'll say to me, "You will not believe what I'm going through." And I can actually look them in the eye and say, "Yes, I will." And I do because I know what the government's capable of doing. My becoming a whistleblower began on December 7th of 2001.

[33:50] And I got a call from the criminal division saying that the FBI on the ground in Afghanistan had captured an American fighting with the Taliban. And my counterpart wanted to know, could the FBI interrogate him without a lawyer? And I was told unambiguously that this American, a guy named John Walker Lind, was represented by council. Now, from my office, this was a breadandbut kind of question. I said no.

[34:23] Um, it would be a pre-indictment interview of someone who was in custody, and it was not an undercover operation. I went home over the weekend not thinking about it and I came back on Monday and the gentleman from counterterrorism called back and he said, "Oops, we did it anyway." The FBI went ahead and interrogated him. What do we do now? You know, I was trying to work with with the criminal division and saying like, "Okay, look, I understand

[34:54] you're on the battlefield, heat of war, and they interrogated him anyway, so let's figure out how to do cleanup." So, I advised that they should seal off the interview of John Walker, Lind, and use the information only for national security and intelligence gathering purposes, but not for criminal prosecution. Meanwhile, pictures were circulating

[35:25] worldwide by that time of this guy naked, bound to a board with duct tape, blindfolded, hands tied in front of his genitals. It was pretty clear this guy was not being treated well. In fact, this looked very much like what we saw years later at Aboot Grave. Today I'm announcing the filing of criminal charges against John Walker Lind. >> The attorney general Ashcraftoft was into these very flashy press conferences

[35:57] and he held one saying that they were going to be filing charges against John Walker Lind. and a reporter asked if he had been permitted to have a lawyer and Ashcraftoft said, >> "I think it's important to understand that uh the subject here is entitled to choose his own lawyer and to our knowledge has not chosen a lawyer at this time." This afternoon, a grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia returned a

[36:30] 10count indictment against Walker Lind. >> A couple weeks later, again, he was asked about the treatment of John Walker Lind and he said that John Walker Lind's rights, >> including his rights not to be not to incriminate himself and to be represented by council, have been carefully, scrupulously honored. So, I felt like he's flat out lying. Any human can read the newspaper and see

[37:00] pictures of this guy being tortured. >> And his defense argues that his statements to the FBI are unreliable because he made them after being held for two or three days in this metal container. >> And more information was coming out. >> Blindfolded, his hands and feet painfully bound to a stretcher. >> That he had a bullet in his leg that he was being held in a box. I was getting very much a vibe from my boss to drop it and I was concerned there was an ethical violation here. We still have not resolved this with the criminal division about how to deal with it.

[37:32] >> And she said, >> I want you to close >> I want you to close the file. >> It was clear that there was another plan that was being put into place and it was to prosecute this guy and make an example out of him. He's accused of conspiring to murder American citizens, supporting terrorists, and supplying services to the Taliban. >> The government was now filing a criminal complaint against this guy. He was the first terrorism suspect to be prosecuted after 9/11 and there was literally a national hysteria around the case.

[38:04] >> He tried to kill American troops >> 1950s. What he did would have been called treason and he would have been sentenced to death. >> He's a traitor. He should have been >> two and two didn't add up till 4 until March. The prosecutor in the John Walker Lind criminal case, the case I advised against bringing, contacted me directly and he said, "As you know, um there is a federal court discovery order for all justice department correspondents

[38:35] related to the interrogation of the American Taliban, John Walker Lind. and I have two of your emails and I wanted to make sure I have everything. And I knew I had written way more than two emails. So immediately I became very concerned. And you know, I went upstairs and I'm like, I'm going to straighten this out because I know the file was like an inch thick. And I went and looked in the file, the hard copy file, and there were two pieces of paper in there.

[39:07] I mean, there was a fax cover sheet and two very innocuous emails, and I had not I felt like I was going to be physically ill. I consulted with a colleague of mine who was a very seasoned attorney on the verge of retirement. He worked in the ethics division with me and he looked at the file and said very matterofactly, "This file has been purged." And I thought, what? We're the

[39:37] government. Like, we're prosecuting Enron and Arthur Anderson right now for destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice. What do you mean it's been purged? The stuff in that file was very damning because it said that the FBI had committed an ethical violation in its interrogation of John Walker Lind. And if that confession could not be used at trial, that was central to trying him. They would have no case. I called tech support. I'm like, "Look,

[40:09] is there any way to get any of this stuff back? It's really important." She said that there was. And we were able to recover 14 emails that had the substance of what happened. And I wrote a memo to my boss and said, "I don't know why they weren't in the file." And I made a copy of that memo with the attachments in case it disappeared again. And I gave it to my boss

[40:39] and she said, "Why weren't these emails in the file?" And it felt like a rhetorical question. And I said, "Look, I don't know what's going on here, but this is not right. And you know it, and I'm giving my two weeks notice. I'm resigning." I think people very high up at justice wanted to cover up the fact that the ethics office at the justice department didn't want to follow the rules and we're not going to follow the rules and we're going to conceal this

[41:10] from a court of law. I could not live with myself knowing that another human being could be put to death because I kept my mouth shut. >> Michael is a Newsweek magazine investigative reporter. Michael >> one morning I heard Michael Isikov saying, >> "Well, the department says John Walker Lind was never represented by council and has never taken that position."

[41:42] And I picked up the phone and I called him and I said, "You're wrong. I don't know who's feeding you the this line of crap, but it's completely wrong and I have the emails to prove it." And I went to a local kinkos and I faxed him the emails. He said he would write an article about it. And he asked if I wanted to be quoted in the article. And I said, "Wouldn't that be a big red flag

[42:13] pointing right at me?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "Well, then no. I don't want to be quoted." A lot of whistleblowers, that's why they report anonymously. They don't want to get in trouble for it. But then my emails that I had sent to him were published in full on Newsweek's website with my name. [Music]

[42:43] I decided I had had enough. The agency wasn't what it had been before September 11th. So I resigned and truly did not look back. And then I got a job with the uh Senate Foreign Relations Committee and in that job I got a call once from a journalist. He had developed information that the CIA was misusing its formal agreement with the State Department to provide cover by putting people who had been involved in the torture program undercover so that their names couldn't

[43:15] be exposed in the press. So I wrote a letter to the agency asking for clarification. Something like six weeks passed and finally a colleague of mine came in the office and said, "Uh, hey, you got a response from the CIA uh to your letter." I said, "I haven't seen any response." He said, "Well, they classified it top secret SCI, sensitive compartmented information, and I wasn't cleared for top secret SCI in that Senate job." I said, "Well, what' the

[43:46] letter say?" He said, "The letter says to go [ __ ] yourself." And so I thought, "Wow, they're still mad." And then my book came out and that really made him mad. >> His new book is The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror. Why would you keep doing the torture if you if you if you got information that you thought was >> because I think people were panicked at the time and they just couldn't bring themselves to stop in case that information came out. In the case of Khaled Shake Muhammad and the third prisoner who was waterboarded, Nashi, uh

[44:17] it turned out that the information they provided was not true. They they simply provided what they thought the interrogator wanted to hear to stop the water boarding. I've applied for every job I can think of. Everything from grocery stores to Toys R Us to Starbucks. You name it, I've applied there. Haven't gotten even a an email or a call back.

[44:50] I'll be honest with you, I really miss working. And so regardless of what the job is, I'm going to be happy. I think just passing 8 hours a day.

[45:24] There were things I said in that book that really bothered them. And I used a lot of true names in the book, too. People who weren't undercover. I wanted to be on the record as saying that I thought they were wrong. [Music] This was the wrong thing to do. This is something that the that the US government and the CIA should not be involved in.

[46:01] And a lot of people at the CIA disagree with me. And I don't care. Not anymore. I don't care.

[46:47] when he's awake inside the house. You know, it's almost an obsession. [Music] >> Ruby put >> you know he's always on the computer he's always on the phone >> there's really no moment of normaly inside the house the kids know nothing about what's going on and uh I try and just protect them

[47:19] and give John the space to do what he needs to do he does put on I think a really good optimistic case, but I know it bothers him deep down. >> We're in the middle of what are called SIPA hearings. Stands for the classified information procedures act. We have identified 100 maybe documents that are classified that we believe are um

[47:49] critical to my ability to defend myself. Ultimately, in this case, Judge Brinkman makes a determination as to what will actually be admissible and relevant at trial before a jury of his peers. So, it's a critical phase. >> The judge is going to come down on one side or the other or maybe somewhere in the middle. So, um I'm I'm serious when I say I've read every one of these documents and I can't defend myself without them.

[48:22] In the very beginning, it would not be untruthful to say that I felt suicidal. I gave serious thought one day to jumping in front of a subway train. That's how that's how how depressed I was and how hopeless I felt. >> Hello. In my very first meeting with my attorneys, they told me that if I took a plea, my bill would probably be somewhere in the $50,000 to $100,000

[48:53] range. But they said if you elect to go to trial, we're talking about a bill that's going to be closer to $500,000. So, here we are. My bill is already a million. And if we go all the way through trial, they told me to expect it now to be as much as $2 million. I can't pay that kind of money. >> We don't need that anymore. >> I don't know how I'll ever have that kind of money to pay that bill.

[49:25] [Music] >> I knew that the White House and Hayden had placed themselves above the law. instead of choosing to follow the Constitution, they had chosen to not follow the Constitution. That they were now in violation of the oath that they took to support and defend and for the president to also protect. I blew every whistle there was internally.

[49:56] Early 2002, I'm a witness for this 911 congressional investigation. I gave them incredibly classified information that was given to me. And what's important to understand is not only did I share everything I knew about thinth thread, I also was given information during this time period. Information that NSA had, information that had been shared with the proper authorities, what's called national command authorities

[50:27] could have stopped 911. I shared all that with the committee. primmaaccia, al-Qaeda, and associative movement information that would have gone a long ways to rolling up the plot. It was in the database. It was there. No one knew it was there because the systems they had in place were abysmal. NSA had abysmally failed the nation.

[51:00] Now, I was charged with putting together the statement for the record to find out everything we could about what NSA knew, should have known, or could have known prior to 911. And I was given some extraordinary information as a result of that. the team. That information was put into the statement for the record, the draft. And then while I was in England on another assignment, got this frantic phone call saying, "Tom, we've been taken off the effort." I said, "Why?

[51:32] When you come back, you'll have to find out." They did not want to tell the truth to Congress. So, as soon as I got back, I was pulled aside. In no uncertain terms, I was told, "Be careful. They're looking for leakers. This was not leakers for the press. They were looking for leakers to the congressional 9/11 investigations. >> They're in violation of FISA. They're in violation of the Fourth Amendment. They're now engaged in an active cover up

[52:03] at the highest levels. I knew that I had been tagged as someone who was a threat to their ability to keep from Congress what they knew about 9/11. And in fact, there was an edict that went out from the highest levels of NSA through the deputy director to bury all the critical truth about what NSA actually knew about 911 and never let any investigator ever get their hands on it. Period. So, you know, here I am seeing all this

[52:34] the massive fraud, waste, and abuse. I had blown all the whistles I knew per statute. Fall that all to the tea. Nothing had happened. It was clearly Congress institutionally had become complicit. The primacy of national security was now trumping the Constitution. And so I made a faithful decision in February of 2006 to make contact anonymously with a reporter detailing with her over a series of

[53:04] mailings and I was doing so in an encrypted fashion for a period of a year. An article was written by her in which for the first time as public revealed the existence of a legal alternative to the secret program called thinthread. The set of people that knew about the secret program whether they read into it or not was very very small. They began to target anybody associated with the program even if they were peripheral. I had been told by very wellplaced sources that Cheney personally said to the Department of

[53:34] Justice, "Find and fry the leakers. Whoever, I don't care. Make an example of them. Burn them." So, I get a phone call from a former colleague, Kirk Web, say, "Tod, we need to meet." And we met and he proceeded to tell me that we had just been raided by the FBI. And I knew sitting there in that tavern I was next because they were asking them about me. I was now clearly the primary

[54:07] target. Somehow I had become I was considered the ring leader. That somehow I was now the source. It was just a matter of time. It was not if it was when I had already been put under extraordinary electronic surveillance. I was also physically tailed, physically surveiled. It was not unusual at all to see two unmarked cars at the end of the street. So, the morning of 28 November 2007,

[54:38] I'm getting ready to go to work. It's just after 7:00. about to get into my car [Music] and there's this very very loud knock on the door. Spouse was there. She was about to take our son Zachary to middle school. I I

[55:08] mean I sit here right now with the look on her face. They served me with a warrant, but I did cooperate with them. That was for like eight and a half, nine hours. And they're asking questions, and they had one of the FBI agents simply taking notes. Your Miranda rights are read to you. They said, "Anything you say will and can be used against you." It ultimately was. So every room had

[55:38] like a number in it just kind of hanging. And they began to go through everything. It was clear that they were looking for headers or anything that showed, you know, classification stamps. And they actually removed several books that were actually listed on the warrant that included James Ryzen's State of War book that they actually uh that became evidence. Words and phrases. And those words and phrases would have included the secret program uh that that I had disclosed to the congressional

[56:10] investigators. My understanding is sometimes they will catalog things and they will actually and then at least but they didn't do that. I mean, it's had stuff everywhere cuz this is it's so off it. Every single drawer and cabinet. They were down here looking at the pots and pans. They reaching behind here. They were underneath the sink, seeing your entire life and sort of the daily

[56:41] things that you you have in your life and the things you touch. and now they're being touched by FBI agents because you're up to no good and they're inside all of your cabinets. And yeah, there's there's a distinct more than just a passing feeling of of being violated.

[57:11] All these questions. You going to end up indicting me? What charges will they file? What else will happen to me? I was separated not long after this and ended up having to move out of the house. Um, and did so in January of of 2008 and was living was living north of here for almost the

[57:43] next year. So yeah, that's part of the price you pay is it's that evening I got a phone call to report to NSA special HR department and they suspended my clearance. I had to turn on my badges. They suspended my

[58:13] clearance, put me on administrative leave. [Music] They ended up charging me with three counts of espionage. And it turned out that they had been investigating me since the ABC News interview in 2007. They've had it out for me since December of 2007. In part because of the official

[58:45] work I was doing as a senior staff member of a of a congressional oversight committee and they're trying to make it look as though I provided classified information to the press. >> I worry very much about John's well-being, not just on a professional level, on a personal level, on a human level. It's hard for any single individual, no matter how strong you are, to deal with this and come out on

[59:15] the other side of it intact. [Music] When we were in our last hearing called the SIPA hearing, the government asked for what they call a a rule four conversation. I had never heard of this. But rule four, wherever this is written, allows the government to have an inc camera conversation with the judge. Meaning, they get a private conversation about the case with the judge without

[59:46] the the defense attorneys or the defendant being present and we we don't have the right to know what that conversation is about. So, they had one of these in camera rule four conversations. The next thing I knew, the judge came out and ruled against us on all of our motions. So, where we thought we were going to have this uh declassified information with which I could defend myself, at the end of the day, we ended up with

[1:00:16] nothing. >> And there are ps out there that would be fine. I would bless a plea for one year of jail to a making false statement charge. That's a tack on charge that they put on every indictment. It's very different to plead guilty to an intelligence identity protection act charge and be the second person in the entire country who's ever plead guilty to that. >> My defense attorneys claimed that they reached out to the prosecution unofficially just to see if there was

[1:00:47] any room for negotiation. And so within 24 hours, we had this offer on the table. For people who are facing such lifealtering decisions, they deserve the straight dope on what's going on. >> We are going to Virginia. >> I'm looking for the address which I have here. >> One of the lawyers, the one that I like and respect the most, leaned over and said, "If you were my brother, I would

[1:01:18] tell you to take the deal. You're not going to get a better deal. And if you don't take it, you're going to risk spending most of the rest of your life in prison. >> I feel like we're about to stage an intervention, which is really pathetic that it's come to this. But he emailed one of the criminal defense attorneys that, you know, I'm having second thoughts about saying I take the plea last night. I told him, "Unless you convey that to the lead attorneys, they can go into this hearing in exactly one

[1:01:50] hour from now and say, "Judge Brinkma, no need to have the hearing. Our guy has decided to plead guilty." >> I thought about it all weekend. I changed my mind several times and then we had a hard deadline of 5:00 yesterday afternoon. Finally at 6:00 they called me and said it's time to fish or cut bait.

[1:02:24] I I have two choices right now. It seems to me one is to fire them and find somebody else and the other is to take this deal. >> Okay. >> They said that they will mount the most vigorous defense in court that they can, but they believe that I'll lose and I'll get six to 12 years. I feel like they've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter that there are

[1:02:54] different layers of cover because nobody's going to care. And so, >> okay, well, let me tell you, let me tell you why it matters. Because this is why they're they want you to bargain on this count. They know that they are weak. They know that IIPA is written so narrowly that it's virtually impossible to prove. >> We talk about this all night long. That's why I come home. I take the kids to school. I come back and I sleep on the couch for an hour because I've been up all night long. She doesn't make

[1:03:24] enough money to support our household. We can borrow enough for 2 years to keep her going, probably without filing for bankruptcy. But if I if I were were to be found guilty and got more than two years, I mean, we think we're ruined now. We'd be ruined permanently after that. >> L >> and I'm missing, too. But

[1:03:57] >> Tom Drake thinks I should fight it. And you know, in my gut, I want to fight it, but I have kids and I just can't risk them losing me for 6 to 12 years. >> Uh, good afternoon. I just have a brief statement. Uh,

[1:04:27] John Keryaku is a loyal American who loves his country deeply. He served for many years in the CIA as an agent in challenging and often dangerous assignments. And nothing that happened today in this plea does not diminish in any way the value of his service to the country or the contributions he made to the security of our nation.

[1:04:59] >> Are you at least happy that it's involved? [Music] >> Obviously I'm persona nangrada within the government. you don't have a security clearance and so I'm unemployed. So I did look for work. I spent a lot of time looking for work. I applied for a a part-time position with Apple and several months later I actually got a phone call.

[1:05:30] You know, I ended up working at an Apple store in the greater DC area as an expert. [Music] A number of retaliatory steps were taken. I was made the target of a federal criminal leak investigation. I was referred by the Justice Department to the state bars in which I'm licensed as an attorney. It is a big deal. If you're referred to the bar, you could

[1:06:01] lose your license to practice law. They referred me based on a secret report to which I did not have access. A justice department investigator called my new law firm, a private law firm where I worked and told them that they had just hired a criminal, that I was going to steal attorney client files and that they should really think about firing me. So they put me on

[1:06:31] administrative leave which was paid briefly and then suddenly they stopped paying me. So I applied for unemployment. Soon afterwards the investigator called me and started asking questions about the Newsweek article. He grew very antagonistic. He said, "Did you ever send emails to

[1:07:01] Michael is the cuff and he's like, "If you don't tell me, you we're going to search your computer." And I'm like, "Well, that you know, you know what? I I have to go. I'll call you back later." And instead, I called a lawyer. I mean, I was devastated. I lost my dream job and what I wanted to do. I was incredibly anxious because I felt like I was now under attack and under investigation. I also have multiple sclerosis um which is a neurological disease exacerbated by stress.

[1:07:32] >> Part of the purpose of doing what they've been doing for the last several years is to destroy you. >> The stress is hard to describe. information. >> They leak information, for example, to the press that puts you in the worst possible light. >> The Justice Department called me a traitor and a turncoat in the New York Times. >> You're not loyal. You're not a good American. You're a terrorist sympathizer.

[1:08:02] >> 10 felony charges filed against a former exam. >> It was at top of news at 6:00. It was the top of news at 11 locally. And it was at the top of news the next morning. >> Co-workers would not talk to me. And a few of them said, "Do not call me at work. >> You betrayed your country. Where there's smoke, there's fire. You did something. Why would the government raid your house? Why would they do that? >> I was caught up in this Kafka-esque nightmare. >> I have to try to protect my children from from being exposed to it. I've got the FBI surveilling me on and off for

[1:08:34] the last seven months. They followed us grocery shopping. They followed me into church on Sunday morning." and sent FBI agents to sit behind me in church and watch me. I had neighbors calling me saying, "You know, there's a a car at the end of the block and the guy's looking at your house with binoculars." One woman who was parked and and just watching my children. And I went up to her van and I knocked on the window and I said, "What do you want?" And she kind of got nervous and put the car in gear

[1:09:04] and took off. >> I was trying to be honest. I was trying to do things by the book. And yet I'm the one who ends up having to hire a team of lawyers. >> You have to mortgage your house. You have to empty your bank account. I went from making well over 150,000 a year to a quarter of that. >> The groups that I thought would want to get involved in helping me like the ACLU did not. So I was paying for private counsel um on my own. The cost alone financially, never mind the personal cost, is approaching $1 million in terms

[1:09:35] of lost income, expenses, and other costs that I incurred. >> I was told that I was blacklisted. >> My wife resigned because the agency threatened her with a security investigation and so both of us have been out of work for 7 months at this point. It's surreal is the word. A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I had this conversation. It was on a Sunday night, and she said, "We can't afford food for the next week." And she said,

[1:10:05] "I don't know what we're going to do." So, very reluctantly, we went to the county welfare office. We explained our situation and they said, "Yeah, you guys qualify for everything. Food stamps, Medicaid, cash payments, job training, everything. [Music] The pregnancy in a way kept me really grounded like the kids did

[1:10:37] because I knew there was something so much larger than all this crap that was going on. It was something I could focus on protecting and somehow by protecting the baby I could protect myself in some kind of way. I had gone to work. I was still I had gone into Hawk and Stella Field and Wood, the law

[1:11:07] firm where I worked. And my boss told me, he's like, "You should know that the managing partner in New York and Agent Powell are walking around the office right now." And Agent Powell had said, "Something really big is going to happen. It sounds like you're going to be arrested tonight." And so I

[1:11:38] was just so scared by that. And um nighttime it was the worst time for me. That's when I always kind of had my night demons, you know, and I'm imagining doing the perp walk in front of all the neighborhood moms and, you know, having to go in the police car and be booked. all of this stuff would really

[1:12:08] like be in my mind and I couldn't turn it off. And um yeah, I just woke up the next morning and my night gown was just is totally just blood everywhere. And I just I just knew that I knew I wasn't pregnant anymore. [Music]

[1:12:40] You know, sometimes if I'm driving around the area and there's an Orthodox church, if I notice some cars in the parking lot, I go over to church, sit through the service, light a candle, and go on my way. It I I take strength in that. It comforts me. One thing that's very important to me is the personal story of of a 20th century saint in the Orthodox Church, St. Necarios. St. Necdarios went through his entire

[1:13:11] life trying to correct or rebut lies that had been told about him by people who coveted his office. He was personally ruined by these rumors. He was stripped of his position. He was demoted. He lost everything. And he never he never accused anyone. He forgave them and he moved on with his life.

[1:13:51] [Music] Thank you.

[1:14:21] [Music] The only place left, the only other check on the secret side of government, the only other place to begin to articulate what was really at stake both for me personally as American, but what was what were the larger stakes for America was the court of public opinion.

[1:14:53] And the person that led that effort was Justin Raak. I read about Tom's case in the newspaper and I was immediately alarmed. Clearly a line had been crossed because as unmercifully as a Bush administration treated me, at least I was never prosecuted. and here they were going to prosecute someone. I stayed up that night. I started an

[1:15:25] op-ed about the difference between leaking and whistleblowing and I submitted it and luckily the Los Angeles Times published it. I often will write about something and put it out there almost as a beacon um for someone for someone to grasp onto. >> She not only got who I was as a whistleblower, she realized what was at stake because she herself had experienced what it meant to be on the

[1:15:57] receiving end of a government who wanted to punish her for simply standing up and telling the truth. I needed to do an educational campaign. I needed to do a whistleblower reprisal complaint because he had gone through proper channels and complained to the inspector general. And this was the ultimate retaliation. They sold him down the river and gave his name to the Justice Department to prosecute. We had an article by Jane

[1:16:29] Mayor of the New Yorker who did an indepth long form investigative journalistic piece. >> The government says he betrayed his country >> and that was followed the next week by a 60 minutes piece and then there were editorials by the LA Times and the Washington Post saying that Tom Drake is a whistleblower and it's ridiculous to be using the Espionage Act against him. That media was, I think, a saving grace.

[1:17:01] >> Federal prosecutors today dropped nearly all of the charges against Thomas Drake, the former US intelligence official who walked out of the Baltimore courthouse today, had been charged under the Espionage Act with mishandling sensitive information. It's a high-profile failure for the Justice Department, which is cracking down on government leaks. You know, I'm not sure anymore exactly who the good guys are. So much has changed since September 11th

[1:17:31] in our country that what a decade ago would have been insanity in terms of policy is now the norm. And it's as though if you don't buy into the policy, you're an enemy. >> Dad. >> Yep. >> There's Batman eats a hot dog and there's hot dog eats Batman. >> There's also one that Cookie Monster eats a cookie. >> This past weekend, news came out of General Petraeus's affair. More news

[1:18:02] followed that his alleged girlfriend may have had classified information on her computer. And then the FBI issues a statement saying that it's not a criminal investigation. Well, just a week ago, they charged a translator in Bahrain with two counts of espionage uh for sending a classified document to Stanford University's archives. Uh if this woman had classified information on her computer, she obviously had to have gotten it from Petraeus. Well, why aren't they being charged with

[1:18:33] espionage? Okay, let's see what I have here. phone glasses cuz I'm blind. Okay, in this case it looks like if you're a general and you're buddies with the president or if you're the girlfriend of the general, you're going to get a pass. [Music] >> If you're a nobody, you're going to go to jail on something. Whether it's an espionage act count or some reduced

[1:19:05] penalty, you're going to go to jail. >> Good to see you. >> Thanks for the speech. >> You don't have a dollar. It's okay. It was okay. There was one line where it said like something like this has been

[1:19:36] mentally hard on my kids or something. I forgot to add in and my wife. >> Yeah. >> See my kids grow up. The 23rd annual Joey Callaway Award for Civic Courage is hereby presented to John Kuryaku, anti-torrture advocate on the Ramparts. In recognition of his stand against

[1:20:07] using torture to extract information from government prisoners, his public disclosure that torture, including waterboarding, is official policy, not a rogue event, as the government claimed. his leadership as the first CIA officer to confirm and then condemn this illegal torture policy.

[1:20:42] There's a rumor that they might just shackle me and take me away tomorrow. Yeah. So, I'm going to take off my uh crucifix and my wedding ring before I leave for the courthouse. I don't know. Send me to some p Yeah. Send me to some prison someplace. Don't worry. Okay. No, don't be. Don't be.

[1:21:13] When we first told the kids that I was going to have to leave for a couple of years, Max took it hard. He cried a lot. >> Okay. You want this blanket? >> Tell you why. Cuz my hand feels all stiff when I move it. >> Okay. He was upset that I was not going to be around for his birthday. >> I'm going to miss his first communion.

[1:21:48] Cold today. 19°. >> Hi. Good morning. They don't want me to give a statement. I said, I just want to thank people. So, I'm going to I'm going to thank people. >> Today's sentence should be a reminder to

[1:22:21] every individual who works for the government who comes into the possession of closely held sensitive information regarding the national defense or the identity of a covert agent that it is critical that that information uh remain secure. John is the only CIA agent who will be going to prison with respect to the torture program and he didn't torture anybody. He is also the only CIA agent

[1:22:51] going to prison for leaking something to the press when we've had numerous top level disclosures of classified information including sources and methods to Hollywood for the production of the movie Zero Dark 30 and no one seems to have a problem with that. This morning I uh I was sentenced to 30 months uh in prison for a crime to which I had pleaded guilty. I want to say that

[1:23:22] I come out of court positive, confident, and optimistic. I would like to thank several [Music]

[1:24:13] Today I have an audience of one and it's Barack Obama. We're at the point now where this is between Barack Obama and me. He's the only person who can help me if he's so inclined and I have to try to reach him today.

[1:24:56] Stand by. >> 15. Coming up, the first CIA officer ever sentenced for leaking classified information. Why does he consider that to be a badge of honor? And rare treasures from President Kennedy in our studio before they hit the auction block. >> We want to start this half hour with a former CIA officer who sent us 30 months

[1:25:28] behind bars. The first to ever be sent to jail for leaking classified secrets. We're going to talk to him exclusively in a moment. But first, with the backstory, here's NBC's Andrea Mitchell. 413 led investigators to Mr. Kuryaku who then admitted in court under oath that he knowingly intentionally outed the identity of this corporate agent. >> Kuryaku has portrayed himself as a

[1:25:59] whistleblower for disclosing the Bush administration's controversial water boarding techniques. >> And John Kuryaku is with us exclusively. John, good morning. It's good to see you. >> Good morning. Thanks for having me. >> Depending on who you are, you look at this case differently. Some people say you betrayed your former colleagues in order to raise your media profile, hoping to sell books and to get a consulting business going. Others say you were a whistleblower. You spoke out and now you're being wrongly prosecuted. You say you wear this conviction like a badge of honor. >> I do. I wear this conviction as a badge of honor because this conviction is not

[1:26:31] about leaking. This case was about torture from the very beginning. Let me just stop you right there because you acknowledged you pleaded guilty and you admitted that you identified a CIA officer who was in fact covert. That is against the law. You don't you don't disagree with that. >> No. And I and I should never have done that. That was a terrible mistake. >> In fact, in 2007, you told MSNBC you were coming forward then because you thought that the agency had gotten quote a bum wrap on waterboarding. That's somebody who's defending these practices, not denouncing them. I was

[1:27:02] relying on what the CIA had told CIA officers inside the building that these methods were effective. That turned out to be a lie. >> And you've admitted not just to the leaking of the one name, but you also acknowledged giving classified information to yet a second reporter. Did you ask these journalists, hey, what are you going to do with this information? >> Well, let me let me correct you on one thing. The reporter came to me with the name and said, "Can you talk to >> I think specifically the charges said that you disclosed the connection of that officer to a classified operation." And yet in a recorded FBI interview a

[1:27:33] year ago, you said you knew that this officer was always [Music] final. You disclose the name of this officer to this journalist. The journalist in turn passed it to a defense investigator. A picture of this officer ended up in the jail cell of a terror suspect. How do you feel about that? >> Stay right there. Okay. >> Yeah.

[1:28:04] >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thanks for taking a >> You don't think I helped myself? I'll just keep my fingers crossed. See what happens.

[1:28:58] We've never used the word prison with the children. >> We told them that, you know, I've been involved in this fight with the FBI for the last year. And I said, "Unfortunately, I lost." And so because I lost, I'm going to have to go to Pennsylvania for 2 years to teach bad guys how to get their high school diplomas.

[1:29:30] >> And when I finish that contract, I'm going to come home. We're going to be together again as a family, and everything's going to be back to normal. How are your days at school? >> Good. Good. >> Good. >> So guys, this is the last time I'm going to pick you up from school for a while. >> I wish my daddy was with me all the

[1:30:02] time. >> You guys will have a good vacation this year. >> Yeah, but you're not going to be with us. Why? Wish you won, >> daddy. >> Yeah. >> I wish you won. >> What? Honey, >> I wish you won. >> I wish I won, too. >> Hey, Max. >> You want to play in the backyard? >> Okay. You have a jacket?

[1:30:32] I'm hoping the actual day of my departure is going to be as normal a day for the kids as possible. >> I think most of these mess the blue part in the sky. >> I don't want the kids to be disrupted in any way that day. >> I don't want there to be lots of tears and you know, oh my god, what are we going to do for the next two years? I don't want any of that. I want them to

[1:31:03] think, "Okay, dad's going to go. He's going to work and we'll see him on the weekends and everything's going to be okay. >> I got it. I got it. >> Dad get

[1:31:34] Let me see. >> You gave it a little You gave it a little scrape, honey. >> Yeah. I am. [Music]

[1:32:26] Man, I'm tired. >> How are you? >> I'm all right. >> He doesn't look like he's telling the truth. I never get to do anything. Hey, I've got an idea. Let's play drive

[1:32:57] the bus. I'll go first.

[1:33:48] I think it's going to take a long time before people realize what a mistake we made with this torture program. I think it's going to be 20, 30, 40 years before people say we tortured people in this country. What were we thinking? I have great fears for the future of the republic. Because if the trend line continues, a

[1:34:19] national security regime, a secrecy regime cannot coexist with a constitutional democracy. Something has to give. >> Only 10 people in American history have been charged with espionage for leaking classified information. Seven of them under Barack Obama. The effect of the charge on a person's life, being viewed as a traitor, being shunned by family and friends, incurring massive legal bills, is all a part of

[1:34:52] the plan of forcing the whistleblower into personal ruin to weaken him to the point where he will plead guilty to just about anything to make the case go away. I know the three espionage charges against me one of the Obama seven.

[1:36:09] I think the government's going to launch an investigation. I think they're going to say, "I've committed grave crimes. I've, you know, violated the Espionage Act." They're going to say, you know, I've I've uh aided our enemies. >> Disclosure of this kind of highly classified material gives our terrorist enemies a playbook for our activities designed to thwart. >> The longer the Snowden saga drags on, so do the questions about the surveillance programs. I don't think anything about this is something the White House wants to deal with. The government is desperate to not deal with the actual content of those disclosures.

[1:36:40] >> Why is the government spying on its own people? >> Our concern is that they have grabbed these phone calls and grabbed these emails and have the temptation to listen to them and read them whether they have the authority to or not. The US government has routinely violated the constitutional protections afforded its own citizens while disregarding the internal integrity of other states and the fundamental rights of non US citizens.

[1:37:12] Some of the investigations began during the Bush administration as was the case with an essay whistleblower Tom Drake. But espionage act cases have been prosecuted only under Obama. You know, he's my only client um in jail for this right now. And he completely doesn't belong there. And he completely gets how politicized this is. And for me, um, as an attorney, I know I did

[1:37:42] all I could for him. Um, but on a personal level, um, it feels like a failure. I feel like like I could have there's something I could have done more. In our history, it's been whistleblowers who have made the difference. It's been whistleblowers who have caused these

[1:38:15] major cataclysmic changes in our society. And I I think freedom can win out over fear.

[1:38:54] Heat. Heat. [Music] Morning. [Music]

[1:41:03] Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music]

[1:41:45] Heat. Heat. Heat. [Music]
