Title: \"All My Stories Have a Bad Ending for the Good Guy\" - John
Show: Joe Mkhitaryan
Date: 2025-09-25
URL: https://youtu.be/s41zksLari8
Duration: 1:42:00

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[00:00] in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were, I could grow all the poppy I wanted. And I said, "What American told you you could grow poppy?" And the security guy says, "Meeting over." And he grabs me by the arm and he physically pulls me back to the jeep. As soon as he started talking about his family, >> you got him. >> I knew I had him. That's what at at the CIA we call the operational vulnerability. You always have to worry that you didn't actually recruit them. Have you ever heard of Iwwayi Weii?

[00:30] >> No. >> He's one of the most popular artists in the world right now. He um he designed the Olympic stadium in Beijing. >> I >> Yeah. >> Oh, here is >> there he is. I >> ai Oh, there he is. We I >> He's Japanese or >> he's Chinese? >> Chinese. He was uh he was in prison for years because he's a pro-democracy activist. But um when I was in prison,

[01:04] he did my portrait out of Legos. I was one of 178 political prisoners that he did. I'm next to Martin Luther King of all people. And now it's in the permanent collection of the Smithsonian Institution >> right here. Right. >> Yeah. Uhhuh. >> Wow. The Smithsonian. >> So cool. You're in the Smithsonian. >> Yeah, it's in the Smithsonian's collection now. Have you ever heard of um Andres Serrano? >> No, I have not. >> Have you ever heard of Piss Christ? >> I have not. >> It's a It's a beaker of urine and

[01:35] there's an upside down crucifix in it. >> You're too young. So, it came out in the 1980s. >> Jesus Christ. came out in the 1980s and it made it made Ronald Reagan so angry that he cut off funding to the National Endowment for the Arts and to the >> Why did it make him angry though? >> Because it's a crucifix in piss. >> Oh my god. >> Flipped out. >> Holy moly. >> So, um, >> and this this was done by an artist, >> Andres Serrano. >> And what's the what's the point of that?

[02:06] I don't get it. >> Um, it's like the absurdity of religion. >> Oh my god. >> Right. So all it did was it made Andress even more famous. >> Yeah, I would cut the funding too. >> Oh, listen. The Republican party >> was absolutely furious. But he did my portrait, too. >> It's in a series of pictures from torture chambers around the world. And it's it's in the tape modern. >> Wow. >> In London. Isn't that hilarious? And

[02:39] it's next to like this uh >> a torturer >> from the US military. >> Wow. Hold on. This this is this is not a photograph. >> It's a photograph. >> Oh, it's a photograph. Okay. >> Because there are some some realist painters hyper. Yeah. They paint just just like >> I was younger and fatter, but yeah, it's in the it's in the tape modern of all things. >> That's incredible. My girlfriend and I went to London in March and we went to

[03:09] Tape Modern to see it. She's like, "Show up. >> Did you I would do the same. >> I wanted to see it for myself, you know. I've only seen pictures of it." >> Oh, you've never seen it real? Oh, then what's so up about that? >> There's not nothing wrong with that. Yeah. >> Oh, man. >> Thank you so much for coming. >> It's my pleasure. >> I'm a massive fan. I always think to myself, if I had a second career, I'd be

[03:40] a spy or something like this. >> There you go. >> You know the >> You're still young enough. >> Well, I don't I don't think they would accept me. I'm 37. >> Ah, you just you missed it by a year. >> Yeah. Yeah. But can you tell me what what what made you think I mean I know I read your story. I know you were in college. Uh professor recruited you who recruited you and most of the time I think that's the way >> you know people get recruited. >> Yeah. this student through college >> until yes currently today until 1993

[04:12] when they passed the Equal Employment Opportunity Act they could just say hey don't tell anybody CIA you want to you want in >> and then you know you have to pass the test of course but then you're in >> can't do that since 93 but they found a way around it recently um until just a few years ago you had to go to www.cia cia.gov and click apply. Not sexy at all. Not worthy of a story. But what they do now is they've got this

[04:43] program called the scholar in residence program. >> So let's say you're from, you know, Pittsburgh and you're going to retire in three years. They say, "Listen, instead of retiring, why don't you move to Pittsburgh? We'll get you a a professorship at the University of Pittsburgh. you teach a class in, you know, the history of KGB operations in Armenia and um

[05:14] and uh if you see anybody on the QT, let us know and we'll reach out to them. So that's the way they do it now. They have professors all over America at every major university and they're like CIA officer, scholar and residence. So everybody knows you're CIA. They they're still doing what they have always done, but now it's out in the open instead of a secret. >> You know the the uni bomber story about >> about MK Ultra? >> Yeah. About this professor? >> Yeah. >> Did they do they do something like that

[05:44] until today where >> they did that until 1975, but we're we like have to take their word for it that they're not doing that anymore. We don't know. >> Yeah. >> In your opinion, >> we probably are doing something like that. And I mean back then it was M MK Ultra. What would they do now? What kind of programs in your opinion? >> Oh, honestly anything their hearts desired. All they have to do is write a letter to the uh chairman and vice chairman of the two oversight committees. They can do anything they

[06:15] want. >> They just rubber stamp it and they said, "Okay, go do whatever you want." >> This is a big beef that I have with the oversight committees is that they don't oversee anything. They're just cheerleaders for the CIA. Back in the 70s, the oversight committees, well, they didn't become the oversight committees until 1976, but the church committee and the Pike Committee in the House almost dismantled the CIA because it was a rogue organization. It was murdering heads of state. It was overthrowing governments. It was

[06:46] carrying out secret wars. And then Congress is like, "Well, wait a minute. We never said you could do any of that stuff, you know, with these special assassination devices, these guns the likes of which nobody had ever seen before that they just invented, you know, for the purpose of carrying out assassinations. And so they created the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that were supposed to oversee the day-to-day functioning of the CIA. That was great until about 1986

[07:18] and then they just fell back to where they always were and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, just do anything you want. Anything you want?" >> You were an adviser for the Senate oversight, correct? >> For the Senate uh foreign relations committee. Yeah. Under John Kerry. >> Did the CIA somewhat lie under that? >> Oh my god. Yes. >> I had nothing but trouble with the CIA when I was at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I I told this story to a reporter just yesterday. Um in 2008 when Barack Obama was running for president,

[07:49] a reporter asked him about something called the Dash Deilele massacre. This took place on December the 1st, 2001 in Mazeri Sharif, northern Afghanistan. So on November 30th and December 1st, 2001, 2,000 Taliban soldiers just gave up on Mas. They just gave up to the Northern Alliance under General Abdul Rashid Dstam. Dstam is a monster. He continues to be a monster. >> He's He's still alive today.

[08:19] >> Oh yeah. And now he's allied with the Taliban. He was allied with the Soviets and then with the Taliban and then with the Northern Alliance and then with the Americans and then with the Taliban again. He's a he's a political [ __ ] >> I see. And so he's also a murderous son of a gun. So Dostam called American forces and said, "We have 2,000 prisoners. We can't hold them. What should we do with them?"

[08:50] And the CIA told Dostam to put them on trucks, take them out to the desert, and hold them there until we could divide them up into smaller groups and then send them to prisons around the country. Because there's no prison in all of Afghanistan in 2001 that's big enough to hold 2,000 people overnight. >> Maybe you send some to to Pakistan, you know, whatever. So they called it the box up. They put all 2,000 men. They crammed them into

[09:21] containers that were on the back of trucks. There was no food. There was no water. And most importantly, there was no air. And when the prisoners started beating on the inside of the containers that they couldn't breathe, Dostam's forces just shot the trucks and said, "Now you have air holes." Killed an untold number. They trucked them out to the desert. It took about a day. And according to one

[09:54] of the 14 survivors >> out of 2,000 >> Mhm. when they opened the containers, the bodies fell out like sardines from a can. >> Wow. >> So Obama said when he was candidate Obama, we need to investigate this and get to the bottom. was the US involved or was this just an unfortunate incident in the fog of war and blah blah blah? And then he as soon as he gets elected, he's like, "Yeah, we don't we don't need

[10:24] to investigate that. No, no, no. We're not going to we're not going to talk about that anymore." So, I'm on the job at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for a couple of months and I get a call from a very prominent, very important human rights um activist who knows about these things, not just some nut, you know, from the street. This is like a serious guy. >> Are you able to name the activist? I he asked me not to expose him, >> but he calls me and he says, "Um, I have some new information, very important

[10:54] information that you're going to need to hear, but I think we shouldn't meet in public." I said, "Okay, where do you want to meet?" He said, "There's an empty classroom at John's Hopkins University. Let's meet there at 2 o'clock." I said, "Great." I go over to John's Hopkins. The lights are off and everything. I get into the building, go to the go to the classroom, and he's there. He's waiting for me. And he said, "I know that you know all about Dashi Leyle." And I said, "I do. I've written about it." And he said, "I have a new

[11:25] witness who's just come forward. He's 20 years old, which means he was 12 when Dash Le took place." He said that he was hiding behind a rock when they opened the trucks and the bodies all fell. >> Wow. >> And I said, "Okay, so what's the new information?" He said the new information is that there were two men standing there wearing blue jeans and black t-shirts and speaking English. >> CIA, >> who who else? And this is what I I said

[11:56] to him. Well, who else could possibly be in the middle of the Afghan desert on December the 1st or 2nd, 2001, wearing black t-shirts and jeans and speaking English? So I said, I'm going to write to the CIA and I'm going to put him on the spot. So I get back to the office. I write a letter to the CIA asking for clarification. We've developed this new information. We want to know what the truth is. Was the CIA on site when

[12:31] >> the the trucks were opened? >> So I gave it to Carrie. Carrie signed it, sent it to the CIA. Six weeks pass and a colleague of mine happened to come into my office and he said, "Oh, hey. Um, the agency responded to your letter." I said, "I just checked my mail an hour ago. I didn't see any letter from the agency." He said, "Oh, they classified it as top secret. It's downstairs in the vault." At the time, I only had a secret clearance, and the letter that I sent to them was

[13:01] unclassified. I said, "Well, what's it say?" And he says, "It says go [ __ ] yourself." And I said, 'Okay, that's how they want to play it. All right, that's fine. So I go over to Car's office and I said, "Look, this is a cover up. I'm 100% sure the CIA was involved in the Dash Dashley massacre and now they won't answer your questions." I said, "You signed that letter. My name wasn't on that letter." M

[13:31] >> and he said, "Yeah, I've been thinking about this and I think we should probably just drop this." >> Typical politician. >> Typical John Kerry. Because he never ever ever wanted to do anything that could possibly jeopardize his chances of becoming Secretary of State. >> It's all he cared about. It's what he lived for. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, you know, it's funny going back a few months to January of 2009, he

[14:03] called me out of the blue and he said, "I'm going to be the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and I'm going to reinstitute the committee's investigative function." They stopped investigations in 1972. He said, "With your reputation as a whistleblower, I want you to come here and head investigations and I want you to go hard." And I said, 'Great, I'm your guy.' So, we shook hands. I started working two weeks later. And every time I got close to something,

[14:36] he'd say, "Yeah, you're going to you're going to kill this investigation." >> He he told you every single time. >> Personally, personally, and I'll give you another example. >> I said to a colleague of mine, I'm gonna I think I'm going to go to uh Afghanistan next week. I want to I want to do a study on the heroin poppy crop. Right. As recently as the late 1970s, Afghanistan was a net food exporter. >> They grew so much food they were exporting it to Pakistan. I don't know if you've ever been to Afghanistan, but

[15:07] the entire country is just like a giant sandbox. And then there are these rivers that run through it. And then on the banks of the rivers, it's completely green. They were able to grow so much food. They could feed every Afghan and export it to Pakistan. It's incredible. Now, or in 2009, for as far as the eye can see, nothing but heroin poppy >> and they had to import almost 100% of

[15:39] their food. Right? People's children don't have shoes. They don't have enough to eat. But man, they've got 93% of the world's heroin. Can you imagine that? >> And was this intentional? Was this told by a government to >> It's intentional. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Now, keep in mind that the Taliban banned the the cultivation of heroin poppy. >> So, in 2000, Afghanistan accounted for 0% of the world's heroin.

[16:10] >> This is in 2000. >> This is in 2009%. Is it 2009? 200 2009 93% >> of the world heroin >> of all the heroin in the world. >> Wow. >> So I fly out to um Kabell and there was a helicopter waiting for me and took me to Bram. This was the only time in my entire career that I ever pulled rank on somebody. Um, they said,

[16:42] "Listen, we're not we're not going to take you to the poppy fields. It's too dangerous." And I said, "No, you you are going to take me." >> "No, it's >> Who are you talking to?" >> to the military. "No, it's too dangerous." And I said, "Listen, with all due respect, and I hate to do this, it's not my nature, but being a senior staff member on a on a congressional oversight committee, I have brigadier brigadier general status. So I'm ordering you to fly me to Kandahar and then to Lashkar and then

[17:12] back to Bram. So they did it. We go to Kandahar and it was just a day of meetings um in in the the base there and I met uh you know the Afghans. They're all liars and criminals and you know narco traffickers. And then we flew to Lashgarat to something called the PRT, the provisional reconstruction. I forget what T stands for. It's a state department um function where they they

[17:44] put you in the most isolated places in a country and then you work with the locals to dig water wells, put up a windmill. Yeah. So we fly in and and I got lucky. I knew I was going to get lucky because the head of the PRT and Lash Garagga was a friend of mine from the State Department. >> So he said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I'm getting real push back from these guys. They don't want to do any of this. But what I want to do is just get in a jeep. >> Can you tell me why they don't want to take you?"

[18:15] >> Cuz I was asking questions that made them very uncomfortable. >> But why were they getting uncomfortable? The military. >> Who's protecting the heroin fields? >> Got it. That's an answer I wanted to hear from you. Yeah. I mean, I knew, but I want >> I mean, listen, I don't like the Taliban any more than you do. >> Yeah. >> But there was zero heroin under the Taliban, and there's 93% heroin under the American government. >> What you tell me is that under the US government protection, world's 93% of heroin was being overlooked by by us,

[18:45] the US military. >> It was being encouraged by us. >> Overlooked, encouraged to be distributed and to be a to be spread. That's the rub. So, that's what I'm getting to. I said, "I want to go out into the fields and I want to talk to a poppy farmer." He said, "Let's go." We had a couple of of jeeps. We had security. We had a translator. They I don't speak um um Pashtu. So, we go out into the fields and I mean, as far as your eyes can possibly see, it's just an ocean of

[19:19] heroin poppy. So sure enough, we see a puppy farmer >> and we go up to him. Salamu allayikum and we get out and he's like, "Who are you?" So I said, "I'm I'm from the Congress in Washington." And uh I want to talk to you about the poppy. He's like, "Okay, what about the poppy?" And I I asked a very stupid question. It wasn't stupid. It was naive. I said, 'Wh would you grow poppy

[19:50] when you can grow vegetables with two growing seasons like tomatoes or onions or pomegranates? You can you can cultivate them and then and then you know >> export them >> reap them twice in a in a year and export them. And he goes like this. He goes, "The Americans told me in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were, I could grow all the poppy I wanted." And I said, "What American told you you could grow poppy?" And the security guy says,

[20:21] "Meeting over." And he grabs me by the arm and he physically pulls me back to the Jeep. >> You know, while he's telling the story, I feel like it's a movie. I swear to God. >> But none of the movies in my stories have good endings. Yeah. >> The good guy always gets screwed in my stories. >> Yeah. >> So, we go back to the PRT. Oh, it's too dangerous. There's a threat on your There was no threat. Nobody knew we were coming. We get back on the helicopter, fly all the way back to Bagram. The next

[20:52] day, I go back to uh Kabell, fly to Dubai, and then from Dubai to um to Washington. So I I went to see Carrie the day after I got back and I said, "Listen, it's a bad situation out there. 93% of the world's heroin, he's like, "My god, I didn't even know it was that bad. It's incredible. It's blah, you know, blah blah blah." So I write this paper and I point the finger right at the CIA and the US military.

[21:23] And before I gave it to Carrie, I sent it to a friend of mine at DEA. I had these two friends who worked at at a secret DEA facility way out in the sticks, way out in in rural Virginia. You'd never have any idea. It was a government office. I said, "Read this. Let me think what let me know what you think." So he calls me back and he says, "Buddy, you know you're never going to get this published, right?" And I said, "Why?" I said, "I'm the chief investigator."

[21:54] And he says, "Look, Afghanistan produces 93% of the world's heroin." Right? I said, he said, "All of that heroin goes to Iran and Russia, and we want them to be addicted to heroin. >> It weakens their societies. It weakens their cultures. It makes them easier to beat." >> And this is coming from We have to fight them. >> DEA. >> Yeah. The DEA senior officer. >> Wow. And sure enough, Carrie says, 'You

[22:25] know, on second thought, I don't think it really does any good for us to to publish this paper. It's just it's angry and it points the finger and I think we should probably just kill it. >> But you're telling me no heroin came to the United States from Afghanistan? >> Our heroin comes from Ecuador and Mexico, >> South Latin America. Got it. >> Yeah. It's just too hard to get it from Afghanistan all the way to the United States when it can just come right up through Mexico. Got it. >> But then make a com make a comparison here. Why won't the Chinese stop the

[22:58] flow of fentinel to the United States? I'll give you one guess. Because it weakens our society and it makes us easier to beat if we have to fight them in a war. >> Do you know, speaking of weakening the society, do you know that uh KGB agent who defected in the 1980s who was a head psychologist? I forget his name. >> Yeah. In fact, I went to his grave. He's buried at uh at Rock Creek Cemetery in Washington. >> Uh his name escapes me right now.

[23:29] >> I We can Can you Tom, can you Google KGB agent defected to United States like head psychologist? Oh, there there he is. Uh Yuri Bezmanov. >> That's him. >> Yuri Bezmanov. There you go. >> That was fast, Tom. >> Yeah. So, I I'm sure you've seen his his videos. >> Yeah. and how he speaks about that it takes 20 to 30 years >> for the KGB to work on you know the minds of Americans to shift their ideology to shift the way they think and

[24:01] the entire purpose of that is to weaken society >> you know and he speaks about liberalism and how it's wonderful and how that you know family values have to be diluted and you know the and and so on and so forth you know religion shouldn't be included in in American household holes or in schools >> and over the long term they're succeeding >> and that's exactly what kind of is happening right now that right I mean if you think about it a lot of people are fighting against that and now you're telling me that you know the the

[24:31] Americans >> are doing the exact same thing no different or the Chinese are doing the exact same thing to the US right now with fentinol >> right >> and I was thinking that back you know during the cold war yes you know the the U the Russians were the largest adversary right now. >> They sure were. >> It's the Chinese, right? >> It's the Chinese. >> And uh I was reading that in the past 10-15 years, we had more Chinese national double agents arrested than any other uh uh national from any country.

[25:04] >> One of the biggest intelligence threats to the United States, and this is not new, this has been decades, 80 years, um is the threat of counterintelligence. you know, if you if you recruit a Russian, a Chinese, a Cuban, an Iranian, a North Korean, whoever, um, you always have to worry that you didn't actually recruit them. They allowed you to recruit them so that they could be double agents and report back to their home services. >> Well, I have a question for you then.

[25:35] Let's go back to 1990 when you you were just joining the CIA >> world's one of the famous stories, Alra Games. He he was a double agent from >> Oh, Aldrich Ames. Oh, yeah. That was a little bit later. Yeah. Yeah. He was caught in uh what 93 94. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. Major traitor. >> Were you Were you aware while you were in the CIA about that story? >> Absolutely not. Nobody was. There is literally nothing more >> compartmentalized than counter

[26:05] intelligence operations. They're the most highly classified, highly compartmentalized operations that exist. And then after that, Richard uh Hans Hans FBI >> Hanser Hansen hit close to home. I had a a a great friend um who was one of the mole hunters at the CIA. Uh Brian Kelly, Brian Brian is dead now. Um Hansen was the chief mole hunter at the

[26:37] FBI, but he was the mole. >> He was the mole. Yeah. So what he did was it it's complicated. Our our our sources inside Russia began dying, right? They'd get arrested and then they would start dying. So we figured there's a mole. So they started >> This is in the 2000s. You're >> No, no, this is in the 90s. >> 90s. Okay. So they started the investigation and they were able to

[27:08] figure out that it was Alder James, Rick Ames. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. >> So they arrest Ames and he gets life without parole. One of the worst traders of the second half of the 20th century. And then our sources keep dying. There's got to be another mole, a second one. And so Hansen and the FBI began the investigation.

[27:38] >> Well, the chief mole hunter at the CIA was Brian Kelly. >> Mhm. >> And so Hansen directed his investigation at Brian and said, "That's the mole." >> Wow. >> It's Brian Kelly. Well, the CIA is going to believe the chief mole hunter of the FBI, right? They're supposed to be the best in the world. Why wouldn't they believe their own? >> They would never, especially the FBI would never believe that one of their own was a traitor. >> No. No. Why wouldn't the CIA Why would

[28:09] the CIA believe that one of their own is the mole instead? >> Because one just was a minute ago with Aldred James. >> I see. >> So they were like, "Oh my god, you know, something terrible is happening at the CIA." What they did is they bugged Brian's office inside the CIA, but he wasn't saying anything because he wasn't the mall. >> Yeah. >> Then they suspended him without pay and they told him um that he couldn't leave his house. He was like under house

[28:40] arrest. >> But he does he have a clue what's going on >> now? Now he's like they think I'm the mole. >> Okay. >> He's hunting the mole. >> Yeah. >> And now they say, "Nope, Brian's the mole." They go to Oregon. Uh, a CIA security officer and an FBI agent go to Oregon. Brian's daughter was working at a at a nursing home at the time. And they told her, "If you give us the information on your father, we won't execute him." She's like, "My father's

[29:10] innocent." Well, we're going to have to execute him then >> if you won't cooperate. >> But that's a total farce. >> It was all Well, no. No. I mean, they fully intended to uh well, if they could, if not, it would be life without parole like they did with Ames, but they were serious. And so, um, this went on for a year until there was an incident at the FBI where

[29:45] they had placed a recording device at a dead drop site in Vienna, Virginia, >> underneath a bridge, a little foot bridge, and the drop was made And then the mole did the pickup. So they were like, "Brian Kelly, he went and made the pickup, but they had recorded it all." So they went and retrieved the tape and they took it back to FBI headquarters and they were all gathered around the table with a recorder

[30:15] >> to see who it is. >> And they pressed play >> and it was their boss, Hansen. >> Wow. >> But this this is later on already in the late 2000 no 2007. >> 200 Yeah. 2006, 2007, something like that. >> He got he got arrested in 2008 and actually he >> Okay, so then this would have been 2007. >> Yeah, I think I think he he retired and then they arrested him. >> Who? Brian. >> No. Yeah, Bri. Yeah, Richard. >> Or Hansen. >> Hansen. >> No, I don't I don't think he had

[30:45] retired. >> I think he was just about >> No, you know what it was? It wasn't retired. They had transferred him out. >> Yeah. And he was like he was going to retire because he said for them to transfer him out like that to a lesser job, they were on to him. >> Oh >> yeah. So he had an assistant who wasn't really his assistant. >> Hansen. >> Yeah. Um I think his name was O'Neal. Um Eric O'Neal. We're we're connected on

[31:15] LinkedIn. So Eric O'Neal was actually there to spy on Hansen. to see if there were any slip ups that would indicate that he was the mole. >> Eric was also an FBI agent. >> He was an FBI agent. He was an FBI analyst. And um there's a great movie that was made about it. I I don't remember the name >> about Hansen. >> Yeah. About the whole case, the whole Hansen case. Eric O'Neal is a a hero in this in this movie. Breach. That's it. >> Breach. Okay. >> Breach. So, um, Eric O'Neal, the the

[31:49] stress was so was so awful in this case that he quit the FBI after >> Eric. >> Yeah. After Hansen was arrested. >> Wow. >> Interestingly enough, um, uh, Hansen hired my attorney to represent him and, um, I mean, they they had him dead to rights. There was he had no chance to ever win. and he ended up taking a plea and the only thing he got in exchange for the plea was that his

[32:20] wife could have his pension. >> That was it. He died a year ago or two years ago at the um at the Supermax ADX Florence. Yeah. He never saw the light of day. But there's a postcript to the story to make it even worse. So Hansen's been caught and Ames has been caught and what's the idiot's name from the counterterrorism center who just got out of prison two years ago. So >> when did he get arrested?

[32:50] >> Uh 200 >> Oh, this guy >> eight. >> Oh, so this is fairly recent. Yeah. >> Wow. >> He just got out a year or two ago. >> So I assume he didn't uh give too many secrets if he got out. >> Well, he did. He did 27 years of a 31 and a half year sentence. But to make it worse, this um he was a senior officer in the counterterrorism center when I worked there. >> And um when Ames got arrested, and he said this

[33:23] during his trial, his case, he said when Ames got arrested, he thought, "Hey, the KGB probably needs another mole. I'm going to volunteer." >> No way. >> Uh-huh. He was the station chief in Singapore. And so he just found the KGB station chief and said, "Hey, listen. You want to recruit me? I want this much money and I want, you know, X, Y, and Z and diamonds." And >> James was trying to keep keep his wife happy. >> Yeah. >> Who did he want to keep happy? >> He was divorced a couple of times. He's

[33:54] paying a shitload of money in alimony. He did it for the money. For himself. Just for the money. >> Got it. >> And he got caught. but not before he had outed hundreds of undercover CIA officers who then had to be brought in from the cold because they couldn't serve in Russia anymore. So, um they caught him and they sentenced him to 31 years and 7 months in prison. So, what does this idiot do? He calls his even stupider son

[34:27] and says, "Listen, here's this number. I want you to call this number. this is the KGB. >> And tell them that I'm going to give you information and you're going to give it to them and I want them to put it into a secret account so when I get out of prison I can still be rich. >> Wow. >> And of course the kid just like, you know, walks right up to the Russian embassy in Washington and the FBI grabs him. >> Yeah. Cuz like the Russian embassy is completely surrounded by FBI. >> I don't understand. How can they be so

[34:58] so naive? >> I know, right? being a CIA. >> You spent 20 years in the CIA and you're that stupid. >> Yeah. I mean, >> you deserve to get caught just for stupidity. >> So, um, >> even Aldrick Ames, you know, since he started, you know, making all that money, he started, he bought a new car, he bought a new house, he was going on expensive vacation, >> Jaguar. I'm You know what I paid for my car? I still remember what I paid for. It was the first car I ever bought brand new. I treated myself to a Volkswagen Fox the week before I started working at

[35:28] the agency. I paid $7,200 for it. It didn't even have a radio. I had to buy a radio. There's my car. I had to buy a radio at Best Buy. >> Volkswagen Fox. >> Yeah, Fox. >> Mine was never that nice. Do do 1989 Volkswagen Fox. >> Oh, there it There it is. That the second one in. That's my car, right? Same color and everything. >> This this burgundy one. >> Yeah. $7,200. Didn't even have a radio.

[36:00] >> Rick Ames is pulling in in a $80,000 Jaguar. >> How much was the salary for a case officer back then? >> Back then he was probably making it in the high 50s. >> 50s. Yeah. >> How much is it now? >> 150. >> Okay. It's not that bad. >> But you never home. >> No. No. But you know what though? I I don't want to get too far a field, but you you rais a good point here. My first station chief told me I was complaining about the money and he said, "Oh, you just started overseas." He

[36:32] said, "There are a lot of GS15 millionaires walking the halls." >> What's a GS? >> GS15 is that 150 level >> because you go overseas and you make your 150, right? And you get post differential 10% 15%. And you get danger pay. That's another 15%. And then you get language pay. There's another 10 or 15%. >> There's no such thing as danger pay. >> Oh, there's lots of danger pay cuz you tell me you're my boss and you say, uh, you need to go to Yemen. >> Yeah. It's

[37:02] >> like, no, I'm going to go to London like him. >> Right. How come I go to Yemen? >> I go to Luxembourg. >> Exactly. So they have to give you danger pay. >> Well, in only what altogether eight months in in Pakistan, I came home and I bought a house. >> Wow. I had so much money. I I joked that they bring a tea in a wheelbarrow. There's so much money that you can make overseas. >> Usually people never do it for the money. >> No. I never met ever in my life a CIA officer who did it for the money. No. And neither did I. You do it because

[37:32] you're a patriot and you want to you want to serve the country. You want to you want to keep the American people safe. >> Are you a patriot when they come and recruit you or you become one afterwards? >> Oh, no. No. You're you're patriotic when they come to recruit you. >> Oh, so they're they already analyzed you. Oh, yeah. They've already taken a look at you. A good hard look. >> Yeah. >> Before they even come and approach you. >> Yeah. Normally, yes. In my case, it was different because I had this professor who was actually a CIA officer undercover as a professor. I

[38:02] mean, he knew me. I had I had taken his class for a good six months already. And and um he was like, "Yeah, I think I think you'll be a good fit. What do you say?" And the truth was I was getting married six six weeks after graduation and I didn't have a job and so what am I going to do like get a PhD and how do I feed myself and my new wife you know so what do I do >> so I said sure >> when you were in the CIA was that something that they made you learn to analyze people their psych >> Oh yeah yeah yeah there's heavy um

[38:34] training and and then my first assignment was in the the psych the psychology office it was the office of leadership development Velment analysis. Yeah. The the the office at the CIA that my professor had founded was the office that hired me. >> You've known me only for 30 minutes. Can you analyze me >> a little bit? >> I want to hear it. >> Um I think that you are patriotic both toward the United States and Armenia. I think your politics are slightly right

[39:05] of center. Um and we haven't talked about politics a little bit. I can feel it. >> I we we spoke about religion. That's where you that's where you're picking that up from. >> I think religion is important to you. >> Um and I think you're a true believer in the American dream. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. For a couple of reasons. Uh we met each other and within 15 seconds you told me that you owned this business. That's impressive. There are Americans that have been here for eight

[39:36] generations that don't own a business. You've been here for how long? uh in the US since 98 >> and you own a business and you own beautiful artworks on your walls. That's the American dream. That's the the American success story right there. >> The only reason I said that is because when you entered it, I had my business name and you were confused. >> I was confused. I know. But you see what I mean? >> People to think I'm snobby just >> No, no, no, no. Of course not. That he just announced it. Yeah. When I walked in. No, no, that wasn't the case at all. But just in the course of conversation, like you and I could be talking about baseball and you'll say something that

[40:09] I'm gonna have to file, you know, and then when I get back to the office, I would type it up and say, "By the way, he mentioned, you know, this whatever it is." >> That's that's interesting because what you're doing is also very important in business. >> Yeah. You know in business in the business world we also analyze people we deal with especially when you meet them for the very first time >> and you make a lot of decisions based on the first time you meet an individual you know yes you can meet with them numerous times and that will also help

[40:40] you to make a better decision but that first impression that first you know instinct >> it is you know it's important let me let me tell you a story after I left the CIA I went to one of the big four uh professional services firms deote now it's called Deote and um I made a friend there uh who was a a young partner. She had come from Ernston Young. They made her a partner immediately. She was only there about four years and then she took a partnership at Price Waterhouse Coopers.

[41:11] So we stayed in touch and when my first book came out she called me and said, "Hey, would you come to our partners' off-site and give them a pep talk?" Mhm. >> And I said, "Sure, but like what am I going to what am I going to tell 140 Price Waterhouse Cooper's partners that they don't already know?" So, I gave it real thought. So, I told them this story. I said, uh, when I was serving in Pakistan,

[41:43] we got word that there was a group of mid-level al-Qaeda people who went to the same Arab coffee shop every single day at 10:00. They would go in, four of them, and they would just sit and have some coffee, sit there and talk, and then they'd leave by 11, 11:30. When I was in Pakistan, for operational reasons, I grew a long bushy beard and I wore shawwar kamis.

[42:15] So, right. So, I fit in and I had an an Arabic uh language newspaper and I went in. I knew they were coming at 10, so I'd go at 9:30, sit there by myself with my coffee reading the Arabic >> newspaper >> newspaper and I never said a word. So they would come in and I noticed that one of them kind of glanced at me. >> Didn't stare at me or anything. He just kind of glanced. Yeah. And I didn't

[42:46] react. I didn't nod. I didn't you nothing. >> The next day they came in and he looked at me and I'm sitting there reading the paper and drinking my coffee. That went for a week. The second week I'm sitting there and he comes in and he nods. So I nodded back. That went on for another week. The third week he says to me, "Salam." I said, "Walaykum salam."

[43:16] And then finally one day he came in by himself and I told him, "Have a seat, please." Yeah. have a seat. Sit with me. We start chatting. Where are you from? >> This is all in Arabic. >> Arabic. And he says, "I'm from Egypt." I said, "Oh, are you here with your family?" "No." He said, "Uh, my wife is in uh is in Cairo with our daughter." He said, "Our daughter is nine, and I have a 5-year-old son that I've never met."

[43:47] His wife was pregnant when he came to make jihad, he said. So I asked him what his plans were and he said, "I'd like to go back." He said, "I'm tired of the fight. I just want to go back and just be with my family and live live a normal life." So we talked about that for a little bit and then I invited him to lunch. We went to lunch and we're sitting talking about his family and we're talking about jihad and and finally I said, "I like you. You're

[44:19] a nice guy, but listen. I said, "Please forgive me. I wasn't completely honest with you. I'm actually not Lebanese." And he said, "You have an accent. >> Just the slightest accent. The truth was my Arabic teachers were Lebanese." >> So that's how I learned it. I said, "I'm actually American." And he looks at me and I said, "More than that, I'm an American CIA officer."

[44:53] And I said, ' And I noticed that you're not running screaming from the room. He said, "I'm willing to listen." So I said, "You seem like a nice guy that this jihad thing, it's not for you." He said he was in Tora Bora hiding in a cave and we fired a cruise missile into the cave. >> He was one of only two people who came out of it alive. He called it the most

[45:24] hideous explosion he had ever heard. Hideous was the word that he used. And when he came out, his ears were bleeding. That's how bad it was. He said he just wanted to go home. Did you open up because he spoke about his family and how he mentioned >> it was all about the family. >> As soon as he started talking about his family, >> you got him. >> I knew I had him. >> That's what at at the CIA we call the operational vulnerability. So I said to him, "You don't need to stay

[45:56] stay around here." He said, "Well, I I I have nothing. I have no money. I have no passport. I have no way to get home. I said, I can take care of all of that for you. He said, well, what do you want from me? And I there was something very specific that I wanted from him, which he gave me. >> So, I worked with our Egyptian embassy friends. They made a passport for him. I bought

[46:28] him the ticket home. I gave him a substantial amount of money. How much? >> No, they they wouldn't let me say. >> Okay. >> Six figures? >> No, but for an Egyptian with a sixth grade education, >> it was a lot of money. >> Enough money to live the rest of his life. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> But it was less than six figures. >> Yeah. Not much less. >> Got it. >> But less. So, I took him to the airport and I said, "Before you leave, I have to ask you one question. Why did you allow

[47:01] me to recruit you? And without missing a beat, he said, "Because I've been here five years and you're the only person who ever asked me about my family." >> Mhm. >> So, you touched his heart. >> That was it. I treated him with respect. >> Treated him like a human. >> Like a human. So I'm I'm telling the story to these 140 Price Waterhouse Coopers partners and I said now you may be wondering why is he telling us this story?

[47:32] It's because what I did and what you do every day really aren't so different because it's all about the relationship. And that's what your argument is all the time that >> and I said, "Is it hard to just say, "How was your kids's little league game last weekend? Is your husband recovering from that, you know, elbow surgery? Where'd you go on vacation this year?" Just have a little conversation. Just show people a little bit of

[48:03] interest in their mundane day-to-day lives. I said, "Listen, if I can get this guy to commit treason, against al-Qaeda. You can win that contract at the Department of Agriculture. How hard is it? And it it struck a chord. I have a question. Uh you worked with John Kerry, you said. Have >> you ever worked with Adam Schiff?

[48:34] >> No. >> Because he was also on the the >> he was on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. >> Yeah. >> Committee. Yeah. >> One of the lead uh >> uh congressional members on that committee. >> You never never worked with him at all. >> I have a very strong dislike of Adam Schiff. >> Why? >> Because Adam Schiff is really the antithesis of what liberal democracy really is. Adam Schiff never saw a war

[49:05] that he didn't want to jump into with both feet. >> Really? >> Yeah. He's been pro-war all the time. >> All the time. He pretends to be this liberal. >> He's been in office since 2000. So >> So Afghanistan, Iraq. >> Mhm. That's right. Somalia, >> Tunisia. >> Sure. >> Libya. >> Yeah. Libya. Absolutely right. >> Speaking of those uh North African countries, can you pull up that video by Have you I'm sure you've seen this video by General Wesley Clark.

[49:37] >> Oh, this is a famous video. Listen, I love Wesley Clark. >> You know him personally? >> He's one of the very, very few people at that level. >> I said, "We're going to war with Iraq. Why?" He said, "I don't know." He said, "I guess they don't know what else to do." So, uh, I said, "Well, did they find some information collect connecting Saddam to Al Qaeda?" He said, "No, no." He says, "There's nothing new that way. They've just made the decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's

[50:09] like we don't know what to do about terrorists, but we've got a good military and we can take down governments." And um he said, "I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail." So I came back to see him a few weeks later and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He said, he reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just" He said, "I just got this down from upstairs," meaning the Secretary of Defense's office today. And he said,

[50:39] "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out >> kind of seven countries." >> Every word that is true. >> I'll I'll tell you a story. I've told it before, but it it's important in this context. When I got back from from Pakistan, on the strength of the capture of Auzu Zubeda, I was promoted and named executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director for operations. In that position, the executive assistant positions, all the big monkeys have at least one. You have access to

[51:11] literally everything that the CIA is doing around the world. >> Wow. >> Everything. So on my very first day, I was so excited. I went up and I said, I go, "So what are we doing?" And he said, "Actually, I can't tell you until you go to security and sign your secrecy agreements." And I thought, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm at a higher level now. They must be doing some crazy stuff that, you know, they can't tell me until I sign." Did you have to take polygraph test >> after pre prehire after three years and

[51:45] then every five years for the rest of your career? >> You take a polygraph. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And background investigations. So I go to security. They had six secrecy agreements laid out on a table. They were waiting for me. So I signed each one of the six. And I said to the guy, I knew the guy. We had served together. I said, "So what's up?" And he goes, "Well, next year we're going to invade Iraq. We're going to overthrow Saddam Hussein,

[52:16] and we're going to open the world's largest air force base in southern Iraq. We're going to remove all of our air assets from Saudi Arabia and send them to Iraq so that we can deprive Osama bin Laden of the ability to say that we are polluting the land of the two holy mosques." >> What year is this? >> 2002. So before he announced he announced in March March 2003 we went to >> No, this was this was uh May May 6th 2002. >> Wow. >> So I was so dumbfounded. I said but we

[52:50] haven't caught Bin Laden yet. >> Yeah. >> Like I thought everybody in the building, everybody in the agency is single-mindedly focused like a laser on Osama bin Laden. And he said, "Buddy," he said, "the decisions already been made and there are battle lines already drawn." >> Wow. >> He said, "The pro-invasion faction was OVP, the Office of the Vice President, OSD, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and the National Security Council." And the anti-war faction was

[53:20] the CIA, the State Department, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. >> Really? >> Mhm. >> Wow. >> Cuz the CIA, we were like this with Bin Laden. All we wanted was to kill Bin Laden and to take al-Qaeda apart piece by piece. And then they want us to pivot over here to Iraq. Iraq hadn't done anything to us. What was the true nature of the Iraq war? >> I always believed it was revenge. >> From the first Gulf War. >> Yeah. >> Daddy Bush to some Bush. >> Precisely. >> Simply as that. >> I I really believe that it was that

[53:51] simple. Yes. Mhm. So what ended up happening and this comes back to uh General Clark's u interview. The night before we attacked Iraq, there was what was called a principles committee meeting. Mhm. >> So the principles committee is chaired by the president and it includes the vice president, the national security adviser, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, the CIA director, and then a small smattering of people from the NSC, uh,

[54:23] the director of intelligence programs, the senior director for the Middle East. I think that was it. For whatever reason, that night, the president did not chair the meeting. He was not in the meeting. So the meeting was chaired by Dick Cheney. Oh, and General Tommy Franks, the commander of Sentcom was there. So Cheney, we have all these TV screens here and and here at the head of the table is George Tennant. I'm sitting directly behind him. >> George Tenn is the >> the CIA director at the time. >> I'm sitting directly behind him as his

[54:53] notetaker. So everybody, all the principles also get a noteaker. >> So here are the TVs. There's Cheney, there's Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, General Franks, this guy, that guy, the other guy. So, the vice president starts off by saying, "Uh, General Franks, why don't you begin by giving us the order of battle briefing?" I say this all the time. I hate order of battle briefings. They're so mind-numbingly boring. >> I don't even know why they do them. They

[55:25] say, "Well, Mr. vice president. Uh we have elements of the first army corps are moving south 20 clicks south of uh the oasis here and then the the fourth uh military u armored uh what who cares where your little men are. >> Yeah. Well, I don't care where your little men are on the map. Is that where you want them to be? Okay, let's move on to something more interesting. Right. So George says, "Yeah, don't don't don't write that down. Don't write that down." So I I I'm not even paying attention. So

[55:59] Cheney is saying, "So we're good to go for tomorrow. We're going to cross the the border at 6:00 a.m., right?" Which is like 11:00 p.m. that night, Eastern time. And he says, "Mr. Vice President, I'll never forget it. Mr. Vice President, if all goes as planned, we'll be in Tehran by August." And very discreetly, George leans forward and turns off his microphone. like you couldn't even notice it. Turns off the microphone and he goes like this. Did he say Thrron or did he say Baghdad?

[56:32] And I said, "He said Thran." And George says, "Have they lost their minds?" And then he turns the microphone back on and he just sits there like this. George didn't say anything in the briefing. So, the meeting ends and they're all like high-fiving each other at the end of the meeting. And one of these these [ __ ] from the NSC, he was the senior director for the for the Middle East. As we're getting up at the end of the meeting, he says, because he's an expert, he says, "When we cross that border tomorrow,

[57:03] they're going to throw flowers at us." So, I go back to the office. The deputy director says, "How'd the principal committee meeting go?" And I said, 'd did you know we were going to invade Iran? And he goes, "Are they still talking about that we're not going to invade Iran?" And I said, 'Do these people know nothing about history? And he said, "No, they know nothing about history." >> But why was Iran on the table anyway? >> Cuz we hate Iran. >> Simply simply because of that.

[57:33] >> That's it. >> That's it. We're the good guys. They're the bad guys. So we need to overthrow them. >> So we didn't need a reason. >> No, no, no. See, this is that I'm glad you said that. This is a a little thing with me when I when I debate um people who believe in conspiracy theories. Well, you know, 9/11 was an inside job because we needed a reason. We don't need reasons to invade a country. If we don't like their face, we invade. We don't need to blow up the World Trade

[58:04] Center and kill 3,000 of our own people to say, "Oh my god, that means we have to invade Iraq or Afghanistan." And so why haven't we until now? >> Because we got bogged down every time we try it. >> By whom? >> By everybody. 20 years in Afghanistan and we lost >> 18 years, 19 years in Iraq and we lost. >> World's longest war. >> Yeah. >> Afghanistan war. >> Yeah. In modern times. Yes. Every time we we launch one of these wars of

[58:35] liberation, we lose. But right after Iraq, Afghanistan, we did wars of >> I mean we didn't >> have remember remember what Barack Obama said, >> lead from behind. >> Yeah. >> The lesson that Obama learned. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. Let others do your dirty work. >> Yeah. Tunisia have the CSI go to >> Exactly. >> And overthrow >> Yeah. And that didn't work out so well, did it? >> But eventually we did overthrow him, didn't we?

[59:05] >> And it's still a basket case. And now we We long for the days of >> Kaddafi >> Muhammad Gaddafi >> when it was stable and we could buy that beautifully pure sulfur-free Libyan oil. >> Are we influenced by anybody in order for us to take these actions? Are we influenced by any governments, foreign governments? >> You're just going to dangle that right in front of me, aren't you? >> I I'm just I'm just, >> you know, so this is the way >> I'm pulling your leg. Of of course the answer is yes. Of course.

[59:35] >> This is the way I think. You know I look at a country just like a business and the business and a country have consultants and you know other entities that influence decision-m you know and those decision makings can also have potential you know reasons for the person who's advising for them. >> Yes indeed >> you know. >> Yes indeed. I can tell you in all the years that I was in the CIA, no matter who the president was, Benjamin Netanyahu, whether he was the Israeli ambassador to the United States,

[1:00:06] the Israeli ambassador, the United Nations, uh the minister of whatever, the prime minister, he would come and ask whoever happened to be the president, you got to invade Iran. You got to invade Iran. I'm begging you. You got to invade Iran. Iran, Iran, Iran. And every president would say, "We're not going to invade Iran until this one." >> Why would we listen to them? >> Well, because Apac spends millions and millions of dollars. >> I know, but Apac spends money on Congress, on Senate, on senators,

[1:00:37] congressional members, but eventually the commander and chief is the one who's going to make the decision. >> And they're donating to that campaign, too. You know, Sheldon Adlesen didn't just decide from the goodness of his heart that he just happened to love Donald Trump's personality and he's going to give $120 million in 2016, which is what he gave, and then pay out of his own pocket for the American embassy to move from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. >> Tell us tell us the reason why that happened. Why did the embassy move?

[1:01:08] >> Because of Apac. Uh >> what was the purpose of that? >> Just to show support for the Israelis. >> That's it. Simple as that. It was as simple as that. >> From Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. >> The embassy was always in Tel Aviv, right? Because Jerusalem was was disputed territory. >> And so in 1993, Congress under pressure from Apac passed a law moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, but freezing the move until there was a formal peace treaty between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[1:01:38] And so that's why even though the law passed in 90 1993, the embassy never moved. And then Donald Trump said screw the Palestinians. He he closed the PLO office in Washington. He expelled all the Palestinian diplomats and then moved the embassy >> to Jerusalem. >> Was this be I don't remember when the Abraham Accords were. Was this after or before that? >> It was just before >> just before it was just before the Abrahams. The Abraham Accords actually helped that for the moving of the embassy, you know, for for all these other

[1:02:09] >> the embassy moved first and then within the next 10 or 12 months, the Abraham Accords were signed. Yeah. >> Right. You know, when I was in Bahrain, I served in Bahrain from 1994 to 1996. >> And this is immediately post Oslo, like less than 12 months post Oslo. Oslo where was where Israel and the Palestinians came to an agreement. >> Oslo Accords, >> right? The Oslo Accords. So all of a sudden there's this flurry of, you know, peacemaking activity

[1:02:39] >> during Clinton, right? >> Clinton, correct? And so each one, five of the six, not including Saudi Arabia, but but Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the United Arab Em Arab Emirates each decided to host a different component of peace talks. So in Bahrain, we hosted the Arab-Israeli peace talks on the environment, right? So these like senior level Israeli political officials, diplomats, the minister of of environment, the Israeli

[1:03:12] uh deputy foreign minister, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, they all came to the conference in Oman. It was the peace talks on like fish and wildlife or something like that. Everybody had a role to play. Yeah, >> except the Saudis. Saudis wanted nothing to do with this. And we thought, okay, you know, by 1996, this is crazy, but there's going to be peace in the Middle East. Until there wasn't. And then they started fighting again, and the Israelis

[1:03:42] started killing more people. And then everybody just pulled out and that was the end of it. And then with the Abraham Accords, what the Israelis were successful in doing was splitting the Arabs, right? So the Tunisians open relations, the Amiradis opened relations, >> the Bahrainis, uh, >> Saudis, not yet. >> No way. >> But >> the Sudin, the Moroccans, >> they all opened embassies in, uh, in

[1:04:13] Jerusalem. >> Okay. So where does that leave the Palestinians? >> Yeah. If you can't rely on your Arab brothers, where most of your people are living and working anyway, who can you rely on? The last ones were the Saudis and now the Saudis. Until October 7th, the Saudis were engaged in in talks with the >> and they were becoming a friendly Arab nation to the Israelis. >> Exactly. >> I have a question for you. You're mentioning that it's because of Apac. It's because of money. It's because of people like Sheldon, you know, AD.

[1:04:44] >> Yeah. If it wasn't the Israelis or you know that community, would it be possible for a different community, I don't know, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Armenians >> to take the lead? >> No, to have a similar approach. >> Oh, have an Armenian Apac. >> Oh, there should be. >> I think I think Apac >> there's a lobbying group, but I want to understand, you know, just like the Greeks, >> it's Apac. It's because of Apac. >> No, Apex should be the model. Listen, the the Apac people, Apex's been around for a long time since the 50s, but they

[1:05:15] really do it right. They know exactly how to raise money and how to organize politically. And and their strategy is to take no prisoners. You're either with them or you're against them. There's no middle road. And they put their money where their mouths are. You know, they don't just send $250 to a to a congressional campaign. They'll send $500,000 to a congressional campaign. And if you vote wrong on Israel, they will primary you. >> And the chances are they're gonna beat

[1:05:46] you. And they're going to beat you with somebody who's pro-Israel and will vote exactly the way they want them to vote. >> But I want to understand this concept. Everybody is in so many words bitching about Apac, right? If it if it wasn't Apac, it was again, I'm bringing an example, the Jordanian pack. >> And the Jordanians had as much influence. You know, you think we >> I think no. And I think >> would it be the same concept of America pro-Jordan, America doing everything for, you know,

[1:06:17] >> no, I think it's because >> So what's the what's what's the, you know, the the the specialty of of Israel or the Israeli? It's that American Jews are highly educated and they tend to be on the whole wealthier than the average demographic >> in America. They've also been in America since there was an America >> forever. Yeah. So, so they've had, you know, two and a half centuries to to plan and to strategize and to be

[1:06:49] involved in the in political life >> and yeah, >> fundraising, banking, um, Hollywood, >> education, they're successful. They're they're they're probably the most successful ethnic group in America. The Greeks like to say that we're the highest educated and second wealthiest group with with American Jews being the most successful. >> I thought it's the Armenians. >> The Armenians are pretty darn good. They're pretty darn good. They're just

[1:07:19] the problem is there aren't enough of you. >> Yeah. >> Um Well, we're actually plus or minus worldwide. Yeah. I think there's a total of maybe 12 13 million Jews all over the world and there's about 10 million Armenians worldwide. So, we're not Wow. Yeah. >> Wow. Okay. >> I mean, there's at least 1 million. >> Well, then see this this goes to proof >> just in California. >> And that's where that's the seat of your power right here in California. >> Yeah. >> That that's why I think ethnic

[1:07:50] ethnically oriented lobbying groups should really take a good look at Apac because everything they've done they've done right. >> Should that be banned in America? >> No. But I'll tell you what should be different. ethnic lobbying groups because there's for instance the Turkish lobby >> is very wealthy >> tell me about it >> they are no different than Apac >> any congressional member in middle of America middle of nowhere they donate a bunch of money the first thing they do is take him to Ankura y >> or you know Turkey and give him a

[1:08:22] massive beautiful tour with a red carpet and a limo just like the >> Israelis do >> taking them to Israel and going you know uh to the wall >> uhhu uh and making sure they take a have a picture of of praying there, >> right? >> Or you know, so >> absolutely right. >> So should that be banned in America? Should a foreign ethnic lobbying group be banned in America if they're constantly advocating for their home country of Turkey, in Armenia and Israel? >> I I would say that the Supreme Court

[1:08:54] would probably find that a ban would violate the First Amendment. But but and this is important, Apac is different from all these other lobbying groups because every other lobbying group, ethnic lobbying group has to register with the Justice Department as a foreign agent. >> Foreign agent. Exactly. Apac is not registered as a foreign agent. >> Does not register as a foreign agent. >> Why? >> I I don't know. You tell me. You You've been in the government. >> I don't know. They get a free pass. >> Why? By whom? By which which department?

[1:09:27] you know which >> well it starts with justice >> but but the bad guys in that scenario are Congress >> congressional members >> and because of again donations APE they will overthrow you >> it's all about the money >> pretty much >> it's about the money and the continuation of political power yes >> it's interesting I >> I've said before that my very first week on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and I knew this was going to happen because I had been told by colleagues it's going to happened. I was

[1:09:58] there, I don't know, 3 days, 4 days, whatever, and these two guys come into my office. I shared the office with three other people. I said, "May I help you?" "Hi, welcome to Capitol Hill." I said, "Uh, this is not my first stint on Capitol Hill, but thank you. May I help you?" >> Yeah. >> "Yeah, we're from Apac. That's the American Israel Public Affairs Committee." I said, "Yes, I'm I'm aware of of what Apac is. we would like to invite you on an all expenses paid trip

[1:10:28] to the Holy Land, not to Israel, to the Holy Land. I said, "Oh, no, thank you. I can I can do my own vacations." Oh, it won't cost you a thing and it's it's approved by the Senate uh ethics committee. I said, "No, I I know that it is, and I appreciate it, but it's >> total legal bribery." >> Yeah, it's exactly what it is. And three or four of my colleagues took the trip. I didn't take the trip. >> I mean, look, I'm I'm not I'm not saying

[1:10:59] anything for them not to do it because every lobbying group does that. >> Sure, Armenians do it. >> Sure, Greeks do it. >> Greeks do it. Turks do it. Now, another massive lobbying group emerging and spending millions and billions of dollars are the Azeris. >> The Azeris. >> Yes, the Azeris. They are spending massive dollar amounts. Man, this is going to be a problem >> on the United States to make sure they are loved and liked. >> These people don't even have shoes and they have money for lobbyists. >> Yes. I mean, they have oil. They have,

[1:11:30] you know, they have >> They do. They have oil. >> They're they're opening opening up pipelines to Europe. >> Yeah. >> They are best friends of Israel. Israel Israel gave them >> and Turkey. >> And Yeah. Turkey. They're they're half half brothers. >> Yes, they are. They're half brothers. That's a good way to put it. >> Uh Israel is their one of their closest ally. >> Yes. and Israel is a tool to use America. >> You know, I've watched these areas for a long time only because I'm Greek American and the way we were raised and you are probably the same way, but we were raised that the Armenians are our

[1:12:01] brothers. Yes. Right. We went we went through the the massacre together. They killed the Armenians. They killed the Syriaks. They killed the Greeks. >> Um in fact, my mother's my mother's parents were were escapes from the Pontian Massacre. Um, so we have this this bond. Well, the Azeris were always on the wrong side of that issue, you know, and the Azeris can't get along. They can't get along with the Armenians. They don't get along with the Greeks. They don't get along with the Russians anymore. They don't get along with the Iranians.

[1:12:31] >> They're exactly like Turks. Who does Turkey get along with right now? >> Turk menistan. >> Nobody. Exactly. Turk menistan and maybe Pakistan. >> Maybe. >> Right. >> Maybe. >> They don't get along with anybody. The Russians. I mean, they're great diplomats. They're f I mean they are they have the NATO's what first I mean in in the region I think they have the NATO's second or third largest military. >> Yeah they do. Uh yeah it's the United States, Germany and Turkey. >> Yeah. So they're a massive massive country. They have what how many million? 150 160 million people. Right.

[1:13:04] >> Yeah. and they've been they've been around the block for a while and they've been playing every single game and it's been all the time, every single time it's been great for them. They have never been punished for anything, whatever they've been doing. >> Absolutely true. >> You know, and why? Because of their lobbying, you know, efforts here in the United States. I mean, for God's sakes, they came here to the to the US. Erdogon had a meeting at a white house and then there was there were these Armenian protesters outside.

[1:13:36] >> Oh yeah. >> So the secret not the secret service secret service went out there. >> They fought the protesters. >> Literally physically fought the protesters. >> Yeah. >> Nothing happened. >> No. >> Nothing. And this was all over the news by the despite the fact that later 6 12 months later whatever it was a court ruled that the secret service was wrong to not arrest the Turks on the spot that those Turks did not have diplomatic immunity. They aren't they aren't accredited by

[1:14:06] the they're visiting they're guests they're not accredited by the state department and that they should have been arrested and prosecuted and they weren't. >> Diplomatic immunity only goes for what? The ambassador people at the embassy. >> Yeah. people at the embassy. You have to be what happens is you arrive in the country and then your embassy sends a letter to the state department saying the diplomats that have just arrived are these people and these are their spouses. So then they are accredited as a diplomat to your country. >> Yes. >> If you happen to land at Dallasos

[1:14:37] airport and you have a diplomatic passport, >> that does not mean you have any immunity at all. >> You have to let the state department know. >> Right. And the state department has to accept your credentials. Exactly. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying. These these foreign foreign lobbying groups are just, you know, getting America by its balls. >> Yeah. >> Does Israel have America by its balls? >> Yeah, I think so. Yes. You know, I I had a friend, he he died a couple of years ago, but he was he was the the second wealthiest Greek American, completely

[1:15:09] self-made Greek criate. Nikos Muyadis. This guy was a giant in in my recent life. And he told me one time, he's like, "Look, I I came here penniless. I came as a as an illegal immigrant." He borrowed $10,000 from his sister and $5,000 from his brother while he was working on a PhD in chemistry. And he opened a company called Mana Cosmetics >> that became the world's largest manufacturer of cosmetics and women's makeup. Okay.

[1:15:41] multi-billionaire and generous. That's a whole different story. But anyway, he said that he called together this group of like the 10 richest Greek Americans, >> John Katy Matidis in New York, and Paul Mitchell, the shampoo guy, he's Greek. Um, all the wealthiest ones. And he said, "Look at us. We're the richest Greeks in this country. And where are we meeting?" In the back room of some restaurant. M >> he said, "Why don't we own a skyscraper?

[1:16:14] The Israelis do >> or the Jewish Americans do. Why don't we Why don't we pull our money and buy influence in Washington? Why is it only Apac? How come the Greek lobby the Greek lobby is actually two guys in a small building at Dupont Circle? Why? What's wrong with us?" >> Why? >> They couldn't answer him. So at that meeting, they agreed to continue meeting every month until they could build something like Apac built and invest in

[1:16:46] the community. And you know what happened? >> What? >> There was never a second meeting. >> He's like, "What am I going to do? I can't force them." >> Yeah. >> There's the Greek lobby. >> Is it Do you think it's a cultural thing? It's like every man for himself kind of thing. I think the is I think that American Jews have such a deep love of Israel and such a deep cultural

[1:17:18] connection to Israel that they see it as their cultural duty as Jewish Americans. The Greeks don't feel that way. >> I mean, some kids go to Israel to serve in the army. >> So many of them do. And they >> I'll tell you what, I I grew up in a I grew up in a city that was much more heavily Muslim than it was Jewish. There was there was one small um Jewish synagogue, but we had several mosques. There was a mosque for the Arabs who came between like 1900 and 1920. Then

[1:17:49] there was a mosque for for the South Asians that came later on in the ' 50s, the 60s, the '7s. And then there was a third mosque. So that the conservative South Asian Muslims had their conservative mosque where the men were on one side, the women were on the other, and there was a a divider going down the middle. And then there was like the liberal mosque that they didn't so much follow those rules so closely. >> We didn't really have Jews in our in our city growing up. There were a handful, but not many, mostly Muslims. Um,

[1:18:19] but then you go you go to a bigger city like Washington and they really had their act together. They had been doing this since what is it 52 1955? Yeah, something like that. And then they really started going quickly in the early 70s when Richard Nixon made it American policy to support Israel no matter what. That was a change in American policy. >> That is so interesting.

[1:18:50] >> Everything changed >> because I don't know if you've seen his interviews after he was president. >> He really didn't like Israelis. >> That's what I'm saying. And he we So I'm surprised while while he was >> it was all about the vote. It was all politics. I mean, he was a one-term president. >> He No. No. Well, yeah. Yeah. One and a half. Um, he would even criticize Israel in kind of racist terms to Henry Kissinger's face. And he was Jewish. >> He was Jewish. Yeah. >> Yeah.

[1:19:20] >> Do you think >> 54 1954? >> Do do you think Israel plants people like Jeffrey Epstein here? >> Absolutely. Yes. >> And to use, you know, such compromise? >> Absolutely. Yes. For their foreign foreign policies. >> I I'm on record as saying I I I took real [ __ ] from from the former head of Mossad and from Alan Dersawitz and others who are you know >> who was who was on the list

[1:19:50] >> in the Israeli camp who was on the list but he kept his underwear on. >> Um 86y old man being massaged by a 16-year-old but he kept his. So, I went on the Piers Morgan show and it was Danny, was it Danny Ayalon? He was the head of Mossad. He's an elderly man now, but Yat. Danny Yat. Thank you. >> Yes. So, it was Danny Yat and and Alan Dersuitz against um Scott Horton and me. >> And who's Scott?

[1:20:20] >> Scott is one of the most brilliant libertarian thinkers in America today. >> Scott, I I ran into Scott on Wednesday. There he is. >> Okay. >> This guy, I'll tell you what, I've been on a bunch of shows with Scott and I could just sit there like this and just enjoy listening to him speak. >> Let him rip him apart. >> He's so smart and so well read and so well reasoned. I don't know how he keeps all the information in his head. Brilliant. He

[1:20:51] won a big award the other day from the Association of Independent Journalists. Um, anyway, Piers asked me if I thought Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli Mossad agent. I said, "Absolutely, positively yes." And General Yatm, he he sat there like this the whole show. He just goes and then Duritz is like, I object to

[1:21:21] that and constantly interrupting. It's not my nature to interrupt or if I do, I apologize for interrupting. Finally, Pierce told him, "Will you just shut your mouth and let the man answer the question?" So, I said, "Look, the Israelis have always spied on the United States deeply." I said on my very first day at the CIA where all the new hires were sitting in the in the CIA auditorium called the bubble and we're getting briefed by like the head of insurance and the head of this and the

[1:21:52] head of that and this is how you fill out your time card and this is how you pick your health insurance and and the head of security came to brief us and um he said the most important thing that we're going to need to consider is the issue of counter intelligence. There are enemies behind every bush and they all want to know what we're working on and what we know about them. We have to protect ourselves. So he said, "Rule number one, there's a steakhouse right

[1:22:23] down the road. It's the nearest restaurant to the CIA's headquarters. Don't ever go in that restaurant." Why? Because the KGB thinks that we all eat at that restaurant. So any time of the day or night, everybody in that restaurant is a KGB agent >> waiting for the CIA guy to come in and who who forgot to take his badge off. Right. >> Yeah. >> Don't ever go in that restaurant. Secondly, he said even our friends spy on us.

[1:22:56] He said, "Many of you will come into contact with the two Israeli intelligence officers who are based at the Israeli embassy in Washington. There's a representative from Mossad and a representative from Shinbet. He said the FBI has been able to identify 187 undeclared Israeli Mossad agents spread all across the United States. >> Wow. >> Spying on our defense contractors to

[1:23:27] steal our defense secrets. Now, we give the Israelis 99% of what we have. They want to steal that last 1%. >> There's a famous story when we built the uh F-35. >> We said to them, "Look, we developed this new fighter jet. It's stealth. It's this. It's that. It's amazing. Everybody's going to get it. It's the F-35." They said, "We want it." We said, "Great. We're going to give it to you. We're going to call it the F-35I for Israel, and we're going to just very slightly degrade the avionics." So, God

[1:24:00] forbid if it's shot down by the Iranians or the Syrians or the Russians and they get the avionics, they won't be able to duplicate it. >> They said, "No, we want the F-35 with with the avionics." We said, "No, no, okay." So, they're trying to steal the avionics. At the same time, the UAE came to us and said, "Hey, we want that F-35." And we said, "Great. We're going to give it to you. We're going to call it the F-35E. E for Emirates and we're gonna slightly degrade the avionics so God forbid if

[1:24:31] the Iranians shoot it down they can't get it and reverse engineer it. They said fine, no problem. But the Israelis are here to steal the >> avionics. That's one thing I never was able to comprehend. I mean such a friendly nation >> who shares intelligence on >> constant b not not them us. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're 100% right. Yes. >> Constantly all the time. >> Right. >> And we sell all types of weapons to

[1:25:03] Israel and that's why it's such a small country, >> right? >> But yet so powerful, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Why still try to steal secrets? >> Why still have these agents, the Israelis truly believe that they're alone in the world? >> Really? >> They truly believe it. >> So that's their culture. That's their psychology. >> It is. Yes. trust nobody but themselves. >> Tell us the story about when the CIA stopped accepting gifts from from

[1:25:34] >> Yeah. When I my my very first liaison briefing was very early 1990. I was brand new. I had only been in the CIA for three or four months and my boss said, "Hey, you're going to do your first liaison briefing." Now, when you're in the director of intelligence, you're declared to a whole bunch of foreign intelligence services, especially when you work on an enemy country like Iraq, like I did. So, you know, most people go through their entire 30-year careers and they're declared to two or three, four or five

[1:26:05] foreign intelligence services where the CIA says to the head of the other intelligence service, "This is my guy. He's a CIA officer." Okay. So, you're declared. They know you're a CIA officer because you told them you are. Yeah. >> Okay. So, the Israelis would come to headquarters for their briefings. We we call them intelligence exchanges and um they would always bring gifts, >> right? But the gifts would always have listening devices embedded in them >> with batteries. Like they brought this

[1:26:37] big seal of the CIA. Oh, we made this beautiful seal of the CIA is a gift for you. You should put it in the director's conference room. and it's completely embedded with microphones and batteries. And we're like, "Guys, you you got to stop doing this. You can't do this." It got to the point where >> What was their response when you like bluntly say, "Hey, >> oh well. H you can't blame us for trying. It's not funny. >> There is there's no consequence. There's like >> no because then they're going to go to the Washington Post and say the CIA is

[1:27:08] being mean to us." And then Congress is going to get involved. say what's the matter with you? Do you think I mean with certainty you said Jeffrey Epstein was a massage agent working here in the US as a sleeper cell or whatever they call >> I believe he was an access agent which is a very specific kind of >> one director right is that is that what it means an access agent when you have one directorate you have to complete this task >> no >> what it means is let's say you're you're the head of Mossad

[1:27:39] >> and you want to know exactly what's going on in Bill Clinton's mind or Prince Andrew or Bill Gates or any of these other people. You're not going to recruit Bill Clinton. He's not going to take your money. Yeah. >> And then report back to you like uh you know behind the 7-Eleven at 11:00 at night. >> So you do the next best thing. >> You recruit an agent >> who's friends with Bill Clinton or who can become friends with Bill Clinton. >> So you're telling me he wasn't an agent.

[1:28:10] He became one. He was recruited to become an agent. Okay. That's what it was. >> So, initially, you know, speaking of Gelain Maxwell, her dad being a Mossad agent, >> I wouldn't be surprised if her dad said to Mossad, "Listen, my daughter's friendly with this guy. You might want to take a look at him." >> I see. >> Mhm. >> And do you think that shapes uh foreign policy? >> 100%. Yes. to have these compromise at this these types of people of you know

[1:28:41] this caliber this level and we're not even sure if they have anything on Trump >> and that's why Trump just >> like this attacks Iran without a question >> right yep >> is that a possibility >> yes >> okay >> now Trump will say that Netanyahu came asked him to bomb Iran he said no this time Netanyahu that if you don't, we're going to use nuclear weapons. So Trump did the right thing. He did the the friendly thing of bombing

[1:29:12] them with non-nuclear weapons. So he actually saved a lot of Iranian lives. I mean, that's that's what he wants the the story line to be. We have no idea what the truth is. >> You spoke of conspiracy theorists. I mean, uh, the recent Charlie Kirk assassination, do you think in any way, shape, or form this was planned by, I don't know, a foreign government or a a group, a deep state of people to

[1:29:44] just make sure his voice is not heard anymore because he was changing hearts, minds, and souls. He was changing the culture of America. >> It's It's certainly possible. Listen, I'm the least conspiracy-minded person that you will encounter. >> Okay? >> 99.9% of the time, >> what you see is what you get. It >> really >> Yeah. >> There are so many moving parts in a conspiracy. And and most of these organizations that we're talking about,

[1:30:15] CIA, FBI, MOSSAD, they are such big, slow, lumbering bureaucracies full of a lot of stupid people. >> I mean, I can see they get caught. >> Yeah, they get caught that for everything to just hum perfectly and never be revealed and nobody ever ever leaks. Could it could it be outside sources, outside people, you know, outside entities? >> It could be a compartmentalized

[1:30:46] operation where, you know, so few people know about the operation that they could pull it off. >> What is the one one conspiracy you believe in? >> What's the one conspiracy that I believe in? >> I believe that elements of the CIA were involved in the killing of John Kennedy. I believe elements of the Israeli government were involved in the killing of John Kennedy. >> Really? >> I do. >> Again, the Israelis.

[1:31:16] >> Wh what what which part which element puts it together? >> I was waiting for the president to declassify all of the remaining JFK documents. >> Right. Yes. >> He said he did. He didn't. All >> of it. Yeah. >> No, there's still several thousand pages and I'm told that they point directly at the Israelis. >> Really? Mhm. >> What would be the benefit of of of >> They had specifically asked Kennedy for nuclear technology to build a bomb and he said that he would never give them

[1:31:47] nuclear technology to build a bomb. >> And at the time Kennedy wanted to inspect Israeli nuclear sites. >> Exactly. >> Right. >> Exactly. >> And I mean and we did. We went there. We inspected it just like we did in in in Iran, right? >> And Iraq both. >> And and Iraq. Yeah. And uh >> you put lead seals, you put cameras, you have spot inspections. The system works. >> Yeah. And of course, we never found any, but we all know that Israel has >> Yeah. >> numerous nuclear weapons.

[1:32:20] >> Yeah. In fact, on that Pierce Morgan show, um I I told a a little story about a friend of mine who retired from the CIA and started writing books, just pumping out books, one or two a year, and he's a brilliant writer. And the books are on these really obscure foreign policy issues like US relations with India during the Kennedy administration or US relations with Saudi Arabia during the Franklin

[1:32:51] Roosevelt administration. I love them. But he probably sold 10 or 15 copies. Anyway, he he wrote this book about the history of nuclear weapons. It was like a short history of of nuclear weapons. And we always everything we write we have to send to the CIA for clearance by the publications review board. >> They sent back his manuscript >> and it only had three words blacked out.

[1:33:23] Israeli nuclear program. >> That's it. and he said, "It's not our secret. Like, we we don't have classification authority over the Israeli nuclear program. It's not up to us to protect the secrecy of Israel's nuclear program." >> And they they said that's the policy. >> So, where is that policy coming from? Where's that directorate coming from from constantly protecting a foreign government? It's it's it's it originates with Apac

[1:33:53] >> even in the CIA. >> Absolutely. Because remember the CIA is not a policy organization. It's a policy support organization. So the policy is made at the White House at the NSC or the State Department >> and then it filters down to the CIA. So if the pressure is on the president, the president then gives the policy to the national security adviser who gives it gives it to the CIA director. >> Is the CIA's budget still classified? >> Oh yeah, it always will be. It always will be. >> Yeah. >> What would you guesstimate it at? >> Well, it was accidentally leaked. If you

[1:34:25] want to take a look at Mary Margaret Graham, CIA budget, I worked for Mary Margaret, who is one of the most horrible humans I've ever encountered in my life. And >> she accidentally leaked the budget. >> 44 billion. >> And that was >> 15 years ago. That was 15 years ago. >> I assume it's close to 100 billion >> 100 billion by now. Yeah. >> So that's the second person you hate after John Brennan. >> Yeah.

[1:34:57] >> Yeah. I hate Mary Barb Mar. >> I have another very a very interesting question. Where do you think the world is going right now with bricks? >> Oh yeah. >> The United States. >> I really believe >> Do you fear anything that might happen in the next >> 10 20 years? >> Yeah. I do. Um I think that we are watching the backside of the American empire. Yeah. Our our defense budget is

[1:35:28] unsustainable. We spend a trillion dollars a year just at the Pentagon. A trillion dollar a year. We have a national debt. What is it? 13 trillion. And we add two trillion every year. 35 trillion. Yeah. 35 trillion. and and we add two trillion a year, we we can't in just a few years, we're not going to be able to pay the interest on the debt. Why? And listen, I've been to China. Maybe you have, too. How come I can't have bullet trains in my country that go

[1:36:00] 350 miles an hour? How come our airports look like cartoon airport and you don't you don't even want to sit down because they're filthy and they're run down? I'm >> sure you've been to LAX. It's we should be ashamed of ourselves, >> especially in a city like this. >> Especially Exactly. >> Why can't we have bridges that don't fall into the rivers below them? And I'm looking at Pittsburgh and Minneapolis. >> You know, how come our uh highways are

[1:36:33] pockmarked with potholes? The Chinese highways aren't. It's because we spend so much money on the military. >> Do you think for us just to still have that American dominance all over the world? >> But what's it getting us? Look at what's happening right now. I think there are several major mistakes we've made. One is this outlandish defense budget. We're throwing the money away and we can't account for it. Right? PWC tried for years to audit the Pentagon budget. They just gave up and

[1:37:03] walked away. Number two, the overuse of sanctions in Iran. They lack for nothing. Nothing. I mean, Russia, >> their economy is actually stronger. >> Yeah. >> Post sanctions >> than it was before. >> I mean, the ruble went up a little bit, you know, but >> but they lack for nothing in Iran. Nothing. Whatever they need, they make themselves. If they can't make it, they buy it from the Indians, the Chinese, or the Russians.

[1:37:34] And then Trump just announced last week he's going to sanction the judge in in Brazil because the judge found Bolsinaro guilty. Talk about interference. >> Yeah. >> Collusion >> in a sovereign nation. Um he's putting sanctions on he's threatening sanctions on um the Netherlands because of the International Criminal Court, sanctions on the British, sanctions on the French because they declared uh they announced

[1:38:05] um recognition of Palestine. Well, we've gotten to the point where we're sanctioning everybody >> like fighting with everybody. >> Yeah. And nobody gives a [ __ ] anymore. >> Rhetoric just changed against Russia. I don't know if you >> It did today. today. >> He met with Zilinski this afternoon. >> Yes. >> So, I think that the that the world has just decided we're not just we're just not going to do business with the United States if this is how they're going to be. Well, let me add one other thing. I happen to be in China last year for a conference, business conference, and um

[1:38:39] and I couldn't use my credit card anywhere, but everybody took this thing called the octopus card. Uh-huh. >> So, finally I said to one of these shopkeepers, I go, "What is this octopus card?" He said, "Oh, it's the Chinese credit card." I said, 'Why don't you just use Mastercard and Visa and he said, "Ah, because those go through New York and they make us liable for sanctions." >> These go through Shanghai and then we don't care what the Americans do. And I was like, brilliant. Exactly.

[1:39:09] Now, what happens when the BRICS countries finally announce a unified currency? We're screwed. >> Do you think that's going to happen? >> I do. >> Really? >> Not tomorrow, not next year, not in the next five years, but eventually, yes, it's going to happen. >> That's that's what Gaddafi wanted to do. And look what happened to North Africa >> and and almost got there. But there's a big difference between overthrowing and killing Gaddafi and overthrowing Chinese, the Russians, the Indians, the Brazilians, the South Africans. Yeah. No, I I understand. You know, of course there's a massive difference,

[1:39:40] >> but do you think this is the end or the near of the end of the American Empire? >> I do. >> Really? >> I think we're we're seeing the very beginning >> of the end >> of the end. We're on the back side of it. >> What's going to cause it just to flip it and sink it? >> I think bricks eventually. First of all, look at the Chinese. Could the Chinese have been any smarter in the way they've played this over the last 50 years? >> They're very smart. I mean, brilliant. >> They have. Their their economy grew like nothing.

[1:40:10] >> It's unprecedented in in world history. >> Double tripled their economy since since since the '9s. Yeah. >> When Clinton opened up the China True China, you know, trade. >> I mean, it wasn't only Clinton, excuse me. Nixon Nixon introduced >> was the one who started it. >> Nixon introduced the the Chinese, you know, uh, trade. I think he was the first president to go to China to visit. >> He was right. >> Yeah. That's where the the phrase only Nixon could go to China came from. >> Oh, okay. >> There you go. >> And since then, >> I mean, that country just transformed.

[1:40:43] >> I mean, there is is it was an industrial revolution. It was a technological revolution. >> It really was. >> And until today, it's still happening. Yes. Their real estate sucks. >> Yeah. Real estate's been hit. >> I get that. you know, I mean, they're destroying building after building, city after city because nobody can now afford it. You know, they're not building anymore. But so is the world economy. It's not only only this >> Yeah. He was on the back of your chair for a long time. >> Yeah. >> But uh uh where was I going with this? >> Yeah. The Chinese economy.

[1:41:14] >> Yeah. The Chinese economy. And now it's the Chinese economy. >> Indian economy. It's projected that India is going to take over China in the next 20 years. >> That's exactly right. >> I mean the Russians >> Yeah. They have their own problems. >> Yeah. Exactly. But all these massive countries coming together, but they still their total GDP is less than the US GDP. You know that >> still. But in 10 years, they're going to tie us in 10 years and then it's going to be the Chinese century. >> That's what I'm worried about.

[1:41:46] >> Yeah. >> John, thank you so much. Thank you. Good to meet you. >> Uh this was by far my favorite podcast, my favorite interview. >> Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Let me and I sincerely mean this with a smile. >> This was you are such an incredible human and you're speaking of your friend who keeps all the memory and I said I don't know how you do it. I mean you know day by day date by date you know these names of of from Afghanistan I I can't even remember. You just mentioned

[1:42:17] them, you know, >> after she dust them. >> There you go.
