Title: John Kiriakou: The CIA Whistleblower Who Went to Prison for Telling the Truth
Show: DDGeopolitics
Date: 2026-06-08
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr1NKUPsP-g
Duration: 1:04:00

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[00:00] Welcome back to DDJ Politics. Today we have an incredibly incredibly special episode for you. We are finally joined by the hero in the flesh, John Kiryaku, and of course my lovely co-host Chris who is just getting back from his own appearance on the beautiful Tower of Reed and Olga show. How was that? >> It was wonderful. Great to be with Tara and Olga. Great to be on uh Radio Sputnik this morning. Uh it was fantastic. Great day all around.

[00:30] >> I'm really really excited for this interview. >> As am I. >> I'm like so stoked. >> I really want to welcome John Kiryaku to the show. Former CIA counterterrorism officer, a man who in 2007 became the first US government official to publicly confirm the CIA was waterboarding prisoners for telling the truth. John was indicted, convicted under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act

[01:02] and served 30 months in federal prison. The architects of the torture program, like we know, walked free. Before we get into tonight's topics, guys, I just want to remind you the two things that we need you to do. First, the active campaign to secure a presidential pardon for John. Don't forget, sign the petition at change.org/pardon john. We'll put the link in the description. And don't forget about tomorrow night's webinar hosted by Covert Action Mag, our friends over at CAM, tomorrow night, June 9th at 700

[01:32] p.m. Eastern. Uh, but yes, welcome John. Tell us about the pardon, where the pardon's at, and this webinar, how you are. I watched your recent episode with Matan. I don't even know how you got through that. You need to do more material like that. That was it. >> Welcome to our show. >> Thank you. It's so good to see you both. Thanks for having me. >> Well, where where do we start? The pardon? >> You know, there's there's sort of a there's an official way to ask for a pardon. There's an unofficial way. The

[02:03] official way is you go to the website of the US pardon attorney. You fill out the form. You hit send and you hope for the best. And then the unofficial way is you lobby lobby lobby lobby constantly every day um people who are close to the president and then hope for the best. And so I feel like I've done literally everything that I can do. My friends and colleagues at Covert Action Magazine have taken up this uh petition which is which is

[02:33] lovely. And um again just have to hope for the best. This president for better or for worse has pardoned more people than any other president in American history. And um and I'm hoping that my name is going to be among them one of these days. Inshallah, as you say, >> inshallah is right. >> Inshah. Well, speaking of inshallah, uh you've been out a long time out of the IC, but la we I had this question planned and now I'm going to wing it

[03:04] because last night out of nowhere, well, not out of nowhere, but the war reignited. So, from an IC perspective, what do you what do you think about last night and what do you think about everything happening right now? Well, first we should put out of our minds that there is any such thing as a ceasefire. Those are just words. They're words that don't mean anything. And they don't mean anything because the Israelis have repeatedly said, "Sure, sure. We'll give you your ceasefire. >> But we're not going to have a ceasefire against Hezbollah." Well, that's the

[03:35] whole point of the ceasefire. And so, if the Israelis attack Hezbollah, what they're doing is they're attacking the Lebanese people. And the Iranians have said that a ceasefire is a ceasefire. If you're going to violate the ceasefire, then we're going to retaliate on behalf of the Lebanese people and then in the end we don't have a ceasefire. That's what happened yesterday. You know what? Let's if we could let's start at the beginning of this. The entire US intelligence community, not just the CIA, but all 18 members of

[04:08] the US intelligence community, wrote two national intelligence estimates, both concluding unanimously that the Iranians did not have a nuclear weapons program. Besides that, in 2003, Ayatah Kamayi, the the late Ayatah Kamayi um issued a fatwa in 2003 declaring it a sin to develop a nuclear weapon. There was no Iranian nuclear weapon or nuclear

[04:39] weapons program, period. >> But that narrative didn't serve Israeli interests. And so Benjamin Netanyahu just kept doing what he's always done and what Israeli prime ministers before him have done. They've come to the White House usually several times a year and they've said, "Bomb Iran. Bomb Iran. Bomb Iran." And every single president said no until this one. The Israelis convinced apparently Donald

[05:09] Trump that the Iranian government was a house of cards and that as soon as the first missiles began flying, uh, the whole thing would just collapse. >> Mhm. >> Well, anybody who knows anything about Iran knew that that wasn't true. Even if you don't know anything about Iran, if you just followed the Iraq war in 2003, you knew that that wasn't true. We are never seen as liberators. We're always seen as invaders and occupiers.

[05:41] The Israelis even more so. And so there was never any chance that this Iranian government was going to fall. And look at it this way too. Iran is the size of Western Europe. The entire land mass of Western Europe. It's 3.8 times the size of Iraq. And it has a forbidding topography. You can't just bomb Iran, think it's going to fall apart, and then your handpicked stoogge

[06:11] comes in and just takes over and everybody lives happily ever after. That's a fantasy. It was never ever going to happen, but this president thought that it would. It's deeper than just Donald Trump. I'm not blaming Donald Trump. I'm blaming the entire US government. Just in the last 48 hours, a Republican congressman from Pennsylvania and a Republican congressman from Ohio sponsored a bill in the House of

[06:41] Representatives to give US veteran veterans benefits to any American who joins the IDF. That is a [ __ ] outrage. As an American, I consider that to be treason. If if you're if you're fighting on behalf of a foreign military, you shouldn't be an American citizen. Period. We have members of Congress like this this fine of Florida who show up on

[07:12] the floor of the House of Representatives wearing an IDF uniform. We have members of the US Senate, including the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Tom Cotton, who have Israeli flags outside their offices on Capitol Hill. What is that? Either we're Americans fighting on behalf of America and American ideals or we're not. We're Israeli puppets and stooges. And I'm unwilling to be an Israeli stoogge. >> Well, you mentioned it sort of. You sort

[07:43] of touched on it. Some of the legislation that's going through our government, if you could call it that, right now. Um, I want to start with two pieces of that. You mentioned I can't remember the number to that one. like 82222 or something for the one about the veterans benefits which is shocking 8223 something like that. >> Yeah, that's might be it. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about 224 of FY 27 NBAA, which creates a permanent DOJ DoD executive agent for the US military fusion or USIsraeli military fusion as

[08:14] well as section 2 622 and this would be your wheelhouse. Section 622 of the intelligence authorization act for 2027 slipped in by Tom Cotton does the same thing on the intelligence side. It locks in permanent intelligence sharing with Israel and ties it to their qualitative military edge and restricts future presidents from scaling it back. What is going on? Let's start with the military merger and the NDAA and then I want you to give us your intel expertise on the intel side. You know, and isn't it

[08:46] ironic that this same week that this is happening, what you just said, what we're also seeing is the Defense Intelligence Agency had to issue a warning to its own employees about stepped up Israeli spying on the United States. >> Mhm. >> And and people just look at you square in the eye here in Washington like, "No, there's no there's no problem here. No problem." So, the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act of 2027, you know,

[09:17] NDAAS just by their nature are just rotten, evil, terrible pieces of legislation. They usually run between 1500 and 3,000 pages. Nobody reads them. And members of Congress like Tom Cotton and Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz can slip in anything they want. They get themselves appointed to the to the conference committee so they can ensure that in the clean bill that comes out at the end of the negotiation their provisions are still inside. It's a it's a filthy business. Mhm.

[09:47] >> So the NDAA for 2027 as proposed would create an unprecedented liaison relationship at the Pentagon between the United States and Israel that would literally join the US and Israel at the hip in terms of techn technological cooperation. And let me back up with with a uh with an example that I use quite frequently. When we were developing the F-35, the the state-of-the-art most sophisticated

[10:17] blah blah blah fighter jet, which nobody likes. Um, the F-35. The Israelis were the first ones to come to us and they said, "We want this new F-35." And we said, "Okay, we'll give it to you first. We're going to call it the F-35i for Israel. And we're going to degrade the avionics just barely, just in case, god forbid, one of them gets shot down and the Russians or the Chinese get it, they're not going to have our our topmost secrets. The Israelis said,

[10:49] "Nope, not good enough. We want the F-35 as is, as you have it. We want the same one you have." In the meantime, at the same time, the Emiratis came to us and they said, "We want this F-35." And we said, "Okay, we'll sell it to you. We're going to call it the F-35E for Emirates and we're going to degrade the avionics just a little bit. So, god forbid if you know, you're in a dog fight over Iran and one gets shot down that the that the Chinese or the

[11:20] Russians don't get it." They said, "Fine, we'll take it." The Israelis sent out hundreds of spies all across America in our defense contractors to steal that 2% of the avionics that we wouldn't give them. Well, with the National Defense Authorization Act of 2027, they don't need the spies to steal it because we're just going to fork it over. >> Just hand it over to them. Here you go. Here are our most sensitive secrets. Now, Israel is the same country that

[11:51] sold our top top secret information to the Soviet Union through John that they that they acquired through Jonathan Pard in order to bring a plane load of Russian uh Jews into Israel. Um, and that's okay. We just have chosen not to pay attention to that. We've chosen not to pay attention to the new DIA announcement that the Israelis have stepped up their espionage against the US government. and we're just pretending that all is is perfectly fine in the land of milk and honey and we're going

[12:22] to give the Israelis anything that they want. And as an American, I'm appalled by this. Appalled. >> It's sick. It's sick. We have we have to we have to call it like it is. I think also that there is if you look at it, the close coordination was also revealed during the genocide in Gaza. You remember that famous photo that uh Biden was visiting Israel and there were some special operators there. Then they tried to take down the photo fast enough to

[12:53] try to say that there were no Americans there, special operators, but clearly Max Blumenthal and others were reposting it. Yes. >> And there it was, American troops with our patches and everything, American flags, and there they were being greeted by President Biden in Israel. Mhm. After we said repeatedly that we did not have a military pres uh presence there. >> We do. >> Yes, we do. >> We do. >> Well, what about section 22 622 which ties the intelligence sides together?

[13:24] What is the what do they mean by Israel's qualitative military edge and this sort of insertion of this permanent locking in between the two intelligence agencies? You've talked in previous interviews extensively about MSAD infiltrating all sorts of agencies in the United States and I think you're alluding to the fact that this makes that unnecessary. >> Yeah, it does. It makes it unnecessary. Israel is ranked in the intelligence

[13:55] community as critical threat for counter intelligence. Do you know the other countries that are ranked for critical and threat? >> North Korea. >> Yeah. North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, and Cuba and Israel. Critical threat to the United States government. And this is specifically for spying against the US government and infiltrating the US government. Critical

[14:25] threat. And instead the response now is just give them everything anyway. Just give it to them. >> Yeah. I jokingly said you you mitigate the threat by becoming it. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. How sick is that? >> Right. And you mentioned the DIA report and I wanted you to kind of tell since you this is intel side. We were both just military grunt. Well, we weren't grunts but we were on the on the dirty side. So the intel side what sort of

[14:56] does what does this mean? Who creates this report? Who determines this threat? It comes out of the Pentagon. So it's the DIA is the DNI side. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Overall they're going to come out well they come out of the entire intelligence community. So officially they're published by the director of national intelligence. The CIA has something called the um the counter intelligence center. So it has representatives of CIA, DIA, State Department, NSA, you know, all the major

[15:27] all the major services and they're all working FBI. They're all working together. So this isn't just some analyst sitting at a desk saying, I don't like Israel. I'm going to write this report. This is a sense of the intelligence community policy where they're saying essentially, look, the Israelis have always spied on us, but right now they're really, really spying on us, even more than they normally do. And so, we need to be extra careful right now. All the while members of Congress are wearing Israeli uniforms and putting Israeli flags outside their

[15:59] offices and saying, "Let's just give Israel everything. Everything we have, just give it to them." So what we're talking about here in practical purposes is that in terms of technological cooperation, we would give them literally everything and in terms of intelligence cooperation, we would be we would have Israelis embedded with us. Now post 911, we do have foreign uh services that are embedded in the CIA or in the broader intelligence community. That is the UK's MI6, the Canadians, the

[16:31] Australians, and the New Zealanders. The five eyes countries, >> the five eyes countries, we have a special relationship with them that goes back to the, you know, the 1940s. They don't spy on us ever. And we don't spy on them ever. Well, we also don't spy on Israel, but the Israelis, to remind you, are critical threat for counter intelligence. The Israelis are not our friends.

[17:02] as simple as that. >> How do we reconcile this? It's like the we live in the upside down, the the daily gas. >> We're in two parallel worlds. We're in there's there's reality >> and then there's politics and never the two shall meet. >> Well, this report specified that they were sort of focusing a lot on sort of the negotiators. So Wickoff I think they said Kushner who I'm sure they don't need to spy on and and the other probably reports right back to them

[17:32] transparently but that they were so would you think that they'll just chalk it up and say of course they're going to spy on the negotiators were in peace talks. It's sort of like >> okay that's a great question. It would be like us. We know from Ed Snowden for example that we were intercepting Angala Merkel's cell phone. And I said at the time and I stand by what I said. I want NSA to intercept Angala Merkel's cell phone. Right? Because we compete with the Germans. We'd like to know the German, you know, trade positions or negotiating positions or, you know,

[18:05] whatever the Germans internal deliberations are on A, B, or C issue. Okay? We're not joined at the hip with the Germans. The Germans aren't sitting at the Pentagon. The Germans aren't sitting next to us at the CIA. And the Germans are not critical threat for counter intelligence. So, the Israelis have the same attitude where they're going to intercept Witoff's uh phone uh telephone, cell phone. They're going to intercept Jared Kushner. They're probably intercepting Donald Trump. Donald Trump uses his

[18:35] regular iPhone. Half the reporters in Washington have Donald Trump's phone number. And so that's fine if that's what you're going to do, you know, as part of your your collection uh uh regimen, but um but then you don't give them a seat next to your your analysts in CIA headquarters. You don't give them a seat at the Pentagon with access to the Secretary of Defense. And you certainly don't make an announcement warning your employees that they're critical threat for counterterrorism because they've ramped

[19:06] up the spying against you. I gota I got to ask you on this note. We we're going to pivot. We're going to keep on Israel, but we're going to pivot now to another of our heritage countries. So Greece and Cyprus have a warming I won't even say warming. It's an understatement. They are completely in bed with Greece. >> They are loving Israel. The government, the people I know the people, of course I'm Greek. You're not so much. Of course, not at all. But I have been shocked the past few years when I've

[19:37] been going to Athens. I hear Hebrew everywhere. >> Everywhere. >> Everywhere. They've bought up all the apartments and everything that was dilapidated from the economic crisis. They're moving in droves into Greece and Cyprus. And our governments are getting very close to to Israel. So much so that I would even say that many of our own politicians in Greece nail democratia or also in Cyprus they are sharing everything they're allowing they're opening the door come in just for a few

[20:09] thousand euros more a month they said come in take everything I want to ask you what is the future because I'm very concerned >> as a as a Greek citizen dual citizen I'm very concerned for the future of Greece and I'm very concerned about them dragging us into a quagmire because we Greeks I I'll speak for myself. I love our neighbors. I love our region. I consider myself proud to be Eastern Mediterranean. I have more in common with a Turk or a Palestinian than I do with a Frenchman. That's just how I feel. Yes. And I'm very I'm very happy

[20:40] to feel that way. But I'm just curious about what your thoughts are about Greece and Cypress and their growing ties with Israel. >> Chris, I was in Greece and Cypress uh three weeks ago. I spent 10 days in Cypress, actually. And um Oh my god. Where do you start? Sorry, I have a chronic cough. I don't want to cough all through my my response. It's gotten so bad. First of all, you're right. I'm a proud I'm a proud Greek American. I'm a proud dual national. Um

[21:12] I go to Greece two, three, sometimes four times a year. I love the place. Um 23 and me has told me that I'm actually 26% criate. I am just as proud. I'm speak I'm speaking to the US uh Cypress convention here in Washington tomorrow. Very very proud. >> Fantastic. >> Like you, every time I go to either Greece or Cypress, I hear Hebrew every time I I go, everywhere I go, there are new synagogues being built, which is perfectly fine. What is not fine

[21:45] is that the Israelis are buying up all the real estate not just to have, you know, a summer place or a weekend place or to make an Airbnb. They're buying literally entire villages all at one time. In Cypress, they built they bought an entire village outside of Bafos. Um, it is Jewish only. They're only selling to other Israelis. The legality is unclear, but this is what they're doing.

[22:17] They're building a uh a casino there to attract other Israelis to come and vacation there. They asked the Greek government 3 weeks ago for permission to buy an entire island in the Ionian Sea. They were denied. But you make an important point. I want to reiterate the governments of Greece and Cyprus are joined at the hip with the Israelis. And I get it. The Israelis and the Turks hate each other. The Turks not

[22:47] just hate the Greeks and the Criates, but are an active day-to-day threat to the Greeks and Criates. Um, just yesterday, the Turkish government ordered that the term EGNC not be used in uh textbooks or in Turkish schools. The term AGNC is now replaced with sea of islands. That's the new term like Gulf of America that Turkish children are going to are going to be using. So Turkeykey's a threat and the Greeks and the Criates need Israeli help to protect them from

[23:19] the Turks. I get it. But you cannot just throw away your centuries long commitment to human rights. You can't throw away 80 years of support of the Palestinian people. And so we're seeing things like we saw a day before yesterday in the port city of Perea where an Israeli cruise ship docked with a shipload of Israelis wanting to get off and go to the Parthonon and spend some money and they

[23:51] were blocked from even getting off the ship by a mob of Greeks. This has happened repeatedly over the last two years in the Greek islands as well, including on my own ancestral island of roads. Average Greeks, normal Greeks will not Israeli allow Israelis to disembark. And this is in protest for the way the Israelis are treating the Palestinians. So listen, everybody can live happily ever after if there's mutual respect for human rights and civil rights and civil

[24:22] liberties. And there is not. There is not. The Israelis will take what they want and if they can't take it, they'll buy it. >> The Israelis asked the Criate government four or five weeks ago for permission to open the first ever Zionist high school. Not Israeli high school, Zionist high school, specifically to teach high school students the philosophy behind Zionism so that they can produce more active Zionists, but this time in

[24:54] Cyprus. What what do the Greeks and Cypriates get out of all this except being dragged into a conflict? >> Just a just a quick followup. Do you think I my fear is that over time they're eventually going to expand greater Israel and they're going to say Cypress is also ours. >> The Criates are actually worried about that >> because it's because actually in some maps of the Near East, Cypress is included in that. >> Yes. >> Right. Well, don't forget also that Cyprus is absolutely full of Lebanese.

[25:26] >> Correct. Of course, >> most of them being Lebanese Christians, >> correct? >> Or Drews who are friendly to the Criates. And now all of a sudden these Israelis are showing up like, "Well, now what?" >> Correct. The Turks yesterday asked the European Union to force Cyprus to drop its objection to accession talks between the EU and Turkey. The Criates of course are not going to do that. But even the Turks are warning that the

[25:58] Israelis are taking over Cyprus and so what you're going to end up having is de facto Israel as a member of the European Union. That's overstating it, but you know, there are two sides to most stories. >> Okay, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. I kind of want to hold these thoughts and keep them for the Europe segment, but I wanted to ask, we're still on like DNI. I want to ask about Tulsi because we were talking about the DIA reports >> and we have Tulsi Tulsi's resignation um coming. Why does you said that the DIA

[26:29] report comes through the DNI? Was Tulsi involved in this threat assessment? Do you think that it contributed to her resignation? If yes, or if no, why why do you think Tulsi resigned? >> You know, a week ago, I would have given you probably a different answer. Um, but I know now firsthand that she resigned because her her husband really is sick. Um, he had surgery a couple of days ago. It appears to have been successful, but he does have a rare cancer and is going to require a lot of care. It's going to

[27:00] be a while before he can work again in Washington. Most people who are who are sort of aggressive and protective of their political futures would never have resigned. They would have you know hope for the best and you hire home health care and you know you you squatchch any stories in the in the media. But Tulsi is not like that. Tulsi is one of the most genuine like one one of the most genuine human beings that I've encountered in Washington. And when she said that she

[27:32] was resigning to care for her husband, she actually meant she was resigning to care for her husband. It was a beautiful thing. Um, with that said, yes, of course, she was involved in the decision by by DI DIA to uh to warn against Israeli uh espionage in the United States. Uh, you know, it's funny when you're inside the intelligence community. You see that as just kind of a normal thing, like, oh, the Israelis are spying on us again. Okay. Well, is

[28:02] it worse than it usually is? Yeah, it's worse. Well, we should probably put out a report. And then you just put out a report. That's a normal thing in the media. It's like, oh my god, this means at DIA they're anti-semitic. And it's like, "No, you morons. It means the Israelis are spying on us." >> Well, who is the new DNI? What should we expect from the new DNI? >> Well, there is no new DNI. Technically,

[28:34] >> it's Israel. >> Yeah. Right. So, u So, it's this uh home developer, uh PY, Bill Py, I think. >> What? >> I think so. the the Steve Wickoff of the intelligence the intelligence community. >> That's a good way that's a good good way of putting it. You know, I I I've been in Washington for 44 years. I know a lot of people in Washington. I've I've operated in these circles, maybe on the fringe uh in some cases, but I spent the weekend with some people who know PY well and said that he's a a good

[29:08] guy. He's very smart. He is completely loyal to Donald Trump and he could not find the office of the DNI if you gave him a map and a GPS unit. >> Well, maybe you could put an Apple like one of those air tags in there. Just have him use his phone like a homing device. >> You know, if you listen to the likes of John Thun, the Senate majority leader, uh Pi is not going to be confirmed. His name likely will not even be put in nomination. He's the acting DNI right

[29:38] now. Well, as acting DNI, he can do one thing that has been that has long been important to Donald Trump, and that is to fire all your enemies. And I sus I suspect that at least for the rest of this congressional term, between now and January, he's going to just fire all of Donald Trump's enemies in the in the intelligence community, and then in January, a serious person will be named as the DNI >> or not. I mean, it could just remain

[30:09] vacant. I never I never thought we needed a DNI in the first place. You know, I hate to say this, but Trump said something the other day that's 100% true about ODNI. It's bloated and inefficient and is full of fat. And that's absolutely true. When when I was still in the CIA and they created ODNI, they had 16 employees. 16 employees. Now they have about 24,000

[30:41] employees. Why? What are they doing? We know that the president's daily brief was transferred from CIA to DNI. Okay, there's there's two dozen people right there, but why are CIA operations against Iran or Iraq or Russia or China in the DNI? Why? Hm. >> If it's CIA case officers collecting the information, CIA analysts analyzing the information, CIA budgets that are financing the

[31:13] information, then why are these run from DNI? It it was just a power grab. And so, I don't think we should have a DNI in the first place. And I I'll tell you another thing that's wrong with with the office of the DNI is that the DNI really isn't the director of national intelligence because almost all of the agencies that technically fall under DNI are actually DoD agencies like

[31:43] NSA. NSA belongs to the defense department but it's under DNI. Uh DIA belongs to the defense department but it's DNI. the the army army intelligence, navy intelligence, air force intelligence, marine intelligence, coast guard intelligence, they're all technically ODNI components, but they fall under the Pentagon. So what does the DNI do with all of these other organizations? It controls only the budget. Nothing but the budget.

[32:13] So why bother why bother having it in the first place? The reason why it was created in 2004 was because George Tennant, who is the DCI, director of central intelligence, essentially the director of the entire intelligence community, fell on his face with 9/11 and the Iraq war and they needed to have an adult in the room. And so they just created this ODNI thinking if we put one more layer of of oversight, it's going to make everything

[32:46] better. And all it did was make everything more confusing and fatter. >> One more on America and then we'll go back on our European excursion. But we have this really weird sort of cat fight. K I've been calling it kayfabe because it feels so fake between Trump and Netanyahu. And now we have, you know, the intelligence reports, the anti-semitism claims, blah blah blah blah blah blah. We have the first phone call where he says, "You're effing crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me." And then we have yesterday's

[33:16] kayfabe where you know they're not going to retaliate and then in a few hours they retaliated anyway. So what do you make of this sort of back and forth we kind of I postulated on Sunday or yes wow yesterday whether or not it was even real. If it's real why is it happening? If it isn't real why are they making it up? I just don't I kind of can't get a grip on this sort of rift between Trump and Netanyahu. Colonel Wilkerson said they do not like each other. So them fighting is normal. But I also don't

[33:47] know why is it in the press. Why are you showing me this rift? >> They don't like each other. But I think that um Trump liked Netanyahu more than Netanyahu liked Trump. Trump believed he could work with Netanyahu. Netanyahu believed he could control Trump >> and he duped Trump into this Iran war. Got us stuck, bogged down. It's led to a gigantic split within the Republican party between the neocons and the MAGAs. Um, which which could spell the end for

[34:18] the MAGA movement. And so now we're in a heap of trouble. And for what? What do we have to show for it? We we did Netanyahu's bidding for him. And I think Trump is a little embarrassed. I think he feels that he's been used. And I'll tell you what really seems to make him angry, and I'm getting this from a lot of people in in Washington, a lot of Republicans. It's that when Trump says ceasefire, then damn it, he means ceasefire >> and then Netanyahu just says screw you in your ceasefire and then he, you know,

[34:49] bombs Lebanon or bombs Iran or bombs Yemen or bombs whatever bombs Doha or whatever he feels like bombing. And so it makes Trump look weak. And if there's anything that Trump hates, it's looking weak. And so I think he's gotten to the point where he feels that he needs to rein in Netanyahu or this is just going to get worse for him. So this split that we're seeing, I think it's a genuine split. And Trump is right. Trump put his his reputation on

[35:22] the line by demanding in public that the Israeli uh president drop the seven felony charges pending against uh Netanyahu uh for official corruption. And then what's he get in response? He gets the back of the hand. >> Those are all really good points. Like I didn't even think of it that way. I was just so ready to be like, "This isn't real because it's an axios and blah blah blah." And then Colonel Wilkerson said, "Well, they don't like each other." And I started being like, "Okay, let me come to terms with this being real and what

[35:53] it all means." That actually makes a lot of sense. I could see Trump being incredibly frustrated with the I'm trying to sort of push a narrative here and you're completely putting the kaibos on that and it's actually not really working out better for either of us because >> Yeah. But do you think that I've always just said the Netanyahu is just reckless to the point of insanity so where it doesn't really even matter. I mean the audience >> Netanyahu has a far longer view than any American politician does regardless of what political party he or she happens

[36:24] to be from. Um and and that longer view is is greater Israel. >> Somebody put some side to side videos together I saw on one of the social media platforms a couple of days ago. It was Netanyahu saying if we get rid of Saddam Hussein I guarantee you there will be peace in the Middle East. And then there's a little bit older Netanyahu saying, "If we get rid of Muamar Gaddafi, I guarantee you there will be peace in the Middle East." And then there's the recent Netanyahu. If we can topple the Iranian regime, I

[36:56] guarantee you peace in the Middle East. Now, there will never be peace in the Middle East because of the Israelis. >> Yep. And so we've been tricked or purchased or duped or cajjolled into just going along with this really, really stupid Israeli plan that has no possibility of success. And this is the other point I wanted to make. What's the endgame?

[37:26] >> Like no American has been told what the endgame is. What what is victory in this conflict to install Raza Palvi, this buffoon, this this Zionist clown as the new Sha of Iran? Come on. Even he even he doesn't want to go to Iran. Mhm. >> Um, and what you really believe that there's going to be a pro-Israel leadership in Tehran

[37:56] after you blew up a girl school and killed everybody inside and blew up the electrical grid and the water desalination plants and and the the oil refineries. You think they're going to run to you and love you? Not a chance. And as an American, I don't know what victory looks like. I mean, short of short of committing a million troops and taking over the whole country and occupying it by force and staying there for 20 years. I mean, what what does victory look like? We've never

[38:26] been told. >> Well, Colonel Wilkerson made a really bold prediction. And other people have said the same maybe on different timelines, but they said, you know, within the next one or two years, he said one or two, I think that's a little short. Israel probably won't exist anymore. Chris rightfully in his excitement as a little Greek with another Greek started talking about the the Aian Islands and all of that. And this ties in perfectly for this because I'm so glad he brought it up and you guys got to talk about it because I know it always mentions that you guys are both Greek and we so we know all the

[39:00] stuff that's kind of going on with the Cypress and the Turkey thing and now we have this Albania thing. Yes, >> Israel is declining or is seeing a decline and just in that geographical area. I don't mean their actual power or the structure. Um, this looks like another move into kind of this even larger greater Israel. You guys are talking about the islands. I've looked into that part of Pulia on the Adriatic coast of Italy. They're also buying up there. And now we have the Kushners buying Sazan Island in Albania. What do

[39:30] you make of the president's son-in-law? You talked about Greece now doing $4 billion in real estate deals uh on Albanian p like secluded islands with bases on them. >> There were literally riots in Albania yesterday over this. >> Uh I'm not sure that this thing is actually going to come to fruition because half the country is rising up to keep Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump out of Albania. They pull up to this island on a super

[40:01] yacht. I don't know if you guys saw the social media post that Ivanka put. They pull up on a social uh on a a super yacht. She jumps off, climbs up barefoot to the top of, you know, some crag and looks and she said that she discovered this this like desert island. You discovered this island. >> Yeah. Congratulations. >> How would you discover something that already has structures on it? >> Yeah, it has structures on it. And you've been in negotiations >> discovered Israel. >> Yeah. And you've been in negotiations to

[40:32] buy it for the last 6 months. So the Albanians do not want the Kushers there or their ill-advised super luxury spa. I don't think it's going to happen. But I want to add some background just for for your viewers. When I was growing up, and I know Chris had probably exactly the same experience. When I was growing up, my grandmother used to talk frequently about um the fact that when she was growing up

[41:03] in Greece on the island of roads, you didn't know who was Jewish, who was Christian, you just didn't know. It never came up. Nobody cared until the Germans came. >> Mhm. In 1940, the Germans on on our island rounded all the Jews up within 24 hours and brought them to an area in the medieval city of of roads. Um that is now called the square of the

[41:35] Jewish martyrs. They were put onto a boat to Pereira and from there a train to Thessaloniki and then another train directly from Thessaloniki to Avitz. Of the 2,000 who were rounded up, 14 survived and seven came back to the island. Well, my greatgrandfather, my grandmother's father, uh was a chauffeur for a wealthy Jewish

[42:05] Rodian man. And when the Germans came, he asked them to hide him. And they did. And they moved him from house to house, hut to hut, stable to stable for the three and a half years that the Germans were on the island. And he survived. And um he gave them some property that they passed down to my parents or my my dad and his sister and then they sold to cousins. Okay. With that as background, when the Germans arrived in 1940, they they went

[42:36] everywhere in Greece. They took the whole of Greece except for Cree which took a little bit more time. There's one island in the Ionian Sea called Zakintos, one of the most beautiful places on Earth. They went to Zakintos and the German major who was the occupation governor of the island called the bishop of Zakintos and the mayor of Zakintos to his office and told them they had 24 hours to give to him a list of every Jew on the island

[43:08] and their address. They went back to the mayor's office to discuss what to do. And then the next day they went back to the Nazi major's office and they gave him a list and it had only their two names and addresses and they said, "We're the only Jews on this island. This is the bishop, the Greek Orthodox bishop of Zakintos and the mayor of Zakintos." And the major said to them, "Stop and think what you're doing. If you don't respond to this request, I'm going to have to kill

[43:40] you both." They gave the major a letter that they had written to Hitler. I actually went to the Holocaust Museum to to um research this. The Hitler the Hitler the letter was sent to Hitler, but there was no evidence that Hitler ever read it. But in the meantime, while this major is trying to figure out what to do with this insubordination, the islanders are hiding all the Jews on the island in caves or barns, stables,

[44:10] people's houses, hiding them. So when the Germans began going to the to the houses that the Jews owned, they couldn't find anybody. The Germans finally left in 1944 and Zakinas was literally the only place in the whole of Greece that never lost a single Jew. Not one. So the point of telling you this story is that Greece as a as a as a country, as a

[44:42] society, as a culture, Greece's relations with Jews have nothing to do with Zionism. Nothing. There was no difference between a Greek Jew, a Greek Christian, and a Greek Muslim. It's the Israelis that have drawn these divisions. It's the Israelis that have decided if we can't take something by force, we're just going to buy it. We're going to take whole islands. We're going to take whole villages. We're going to

[45:12] open our own Zionist high schools. We're going to cajul or bribe governments to do what we say. We'll purchase alliances. And they upset the balance of power in the region. A balance of power that in at least in this case goes back hundreds of years. And it's wrong, not just wrong morally, it's wrong from the stand from the standpoint of an American observer

[45:42] watching this go down because it makes the entire region less stable. Chris, has your experience been similar? >> Chris might be frozen. >> He's frozen. I was wondering why he looks so angry at us. >> I did want to Chris, did you did you want us to chime in? Did we lose you for a second? >> Yeah. Sorry if I have some internet issues that keeps buffering in. >> Do you think do you think that the Israelis kind of play on they obviously play on those sympathies instead of

[46:13] being like, well, you know, we have we obviously historically we always know about the Thessalonic Jews and the stories about the Greeks hiding the Jews. Even the Albanians hid the Jews. They saved the Albanians. They saved 2,000 Jews themselves and hid them. And so this is kind of like not so much with the Albanians, but playing on that sympathy. I was talking to we talked we have huge fans in Greece because of Chris. He always talks about Greece and talks in Greek and it's all Greek to me, but we I was talking to them and they're

[46:43] they're like even like I don't get it. We used to be very close. we've have good relations with the Jews in our community and now they just want to come and kind of take us over. So for them it's like this sort of reconciling with the fact that these aren't the Jews of your grandmother or so. I don't know what how to explain it. This is Zionism totally different. >> Yeah. There's there's a huge huge difference disconnect between Zionism and Judaism. Zionism in my view is just a 100%

[47:15] political movement. You know, that's why we have Christian Zionists, you know, evangelical Zionists. It's not Judaism. It's political. Yeah. We run into this a lot when we get outside the West because, you know, we have kind of a bit of sort of people are calling it noticing or maybe I call it anti-semitism. But in the East, they're like, "We don't get it. We don't really understand." Yeah. Cuz in the East in places like I would consider Greece the East because it's Orthodox, Russia, they're like, "We don't like Nazis because they're Nazis. Nazis to do with

[47:47] Jews. >> Yeah. >> They're like, so in America, they're like, well, right now we don't really like the Jews, so we're going to by default like the Nazis. And everybody in the east is like, what the hell is going on over there? So, >> isn't that the truth? >> Yes. And I think that it's happening also with Serbia where they find these places that sort of historically have and valid animosity towards usually Turks or other groups of Muslims and they kind of play on those sympathies as well saying, "Oh, we're holding back this Muslim horde. Look at all the

[48:18] Muslims we're fighting kind of kindly come to our sides before the Turks come and get you." And I feel like a lot of that is going on. Chris and I have talked about um the sort of setting up this interesting avenue for Israel to attack Turkey, kind of pulling United States back from NATO. They are >> We talked about that a lot in Cyprus when I was there a couple of weeks ago. May May I comment on that, Sarah? >> I want to ask you about it because now with the merger thing, I'm wondering if that pulls America further away from NATO and away from Turkey.

[48:49] >> This could be the beginning of the end of NATO. the the Israeli deputy defense minister about a month ago made a public statement in which he said that Israel's next big fight is against Turkey. Well, news flash, Turkeykey's a NATO country. And if the Turks are ever attacked, whether whether it's by Israel or anybody else, and they decide to invoke article five of the NATO charter, all NATO countries are compelled

[49:21] to come to Turkeykey's aid, this would actually pit the United States in a hot war against Israel. Now, of course, that's never ever ever going to happen. What would happen then is the US and and NATO would likely refuse to push the Israelis away from Turkey and that would lead to the the dissolution of NATO. And so we we've entered the twilight zone on this issue. It's uh the idea,

[49:55] you know, and I I said kind of jokingly. I said kind of jokingly in Cyprus the other day, damn it. I said, "These Israelis, if they do this, they're going to force me to come down on the side of the Turks." >> That's what I said. >> This really puts me in a bad position. But that's what we're looking at here. Yeah, all of the former Yugoslavs are saying, >> "Damn, I got to be nice to the Albanians right now, >> right?"

[50:26] >> And so that's where we all are. We're all like, "We got to root for the Turks." Okay, I guess I'll do that. I'm fine with doing that if it means the dismantling of of Zionism. But I think that this this potential to collapse NATO is incredibly interesting and harrowing because Israel and the United States I mean while the collapse of NATO would be beneficial for Russia, I don't see Israel or the United States as friendlies to Russia. So this doesn't what does this how does this bode in that sort of area of the

[50:57] world the Eastern Europe world where I'm looking right now we're looking at obviously Chris is in Russia we're looking at Russia Ukraine saying if the Democrats win this is probably going to allout war if the Republicans stay on course this is pro maybe coming out the way that we just discussed what are your thoughts in that theater >> I think that's correct I will say that that I've been surprised by how little the Russians and the Chinese have wanted to become involved in Iran or with Iran

[51:27] even with just a statement like in the very beginning when the Israelis first attacked Iran last year um and the US followed up with its you know MOAB the mother of all bombs. Um, a lot of us expected the Russian government to at least issue a statement saying that they supported Iran or that they would supply Iran with, you know, radars or that Iran was under the defense

[51:58] umbrella of of Russia. And there was no such statement. And to me, that was kind of a green light to the Israelis that you can go ahead and bomb Iran and we're not going to do anything about it. The Chinese were the same way. They just didn't they uh didn't want to they just didn't want to get involved. There was a there was a headline in The Onion a couple of weeks ago, the satirical newspaper, >> right? Which isn't always so satirical, >> which is not always so satirical. And

[52:30] the headline I I've been thinking about it since I saw it. It said um China content to sit back and watch US destroy itself, which is exactly what's happening. So, I see the Chinese playing the long game, but with the Russians, and the Russians have always had a historically closer relationship with Iran >> than the Chinese have, I I expected a little bit more. Well, what do you think about because then that this kind of evolves into the

[53:03] caucuses because this weekend we had the election in Armenia. We have Pashinan, the the up and cominging internet influencer who also happens to run a small country. Um I think he may he may win again, but he's not going to win the majority. He won't have a co he probably will have issues building a coalition, but for all intents and purposes, Russia has lost Armenia. >> I don't know how that puts Iran with Armenia. Russia has said, you know, kind of wishy-washy. Yeah, we're fine. We're fine with Azarbaijan. But >> that's an interesting thing. Yeah. And

[53:33] it's it's Azarbaian that's the fly in the ointment. >> So you would think that because Azarbaian is Muslim and Iran is Muslim and they're bordering each other and there's even an Iranian state called Azarbaijan, you would think that everybody everybody would be able to get along. And that's exactly the opposite of what the truth is. The Azeris are a threat, a minor one, but a threat to Iran. And so the Iranians have far closer relations with the Armenians.

[54:03] >> Mhm. >> But you're right, the Armenians, I think the Russians have lost the Armenians. But usually the Armenians and the Georgians work in tandem. And the Georgians have kind of split off from the Armenians on this issue. And the Georgians are far closer to the Russians now than the Armenians are. So, we're in this period of kind of like like diplomatic chaos >> that we haven't seen since the fall of the Soviet Union. And it's all I in my view it all started

[54:33] with US efforts to expand NATO >> and then the Gorno Carbach taking place in the background. >> I still do. Would you would you agree? I'm sorry for my internet issues. It went in and out until now. Um, >> you're perfect now. So, go ahead. >> Thank God. I'm wondering if you would agree that still the driving ideology amongst many in the foreign policy, diplomatic and intelligence circles is kind of a neocontainment policy.

[55:04] >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. 100%. Yes. >> It's all about containment. The thing though is from 19 46 or 47 until 1990, the US and the rest of the West was willing to take that long view. And now the US and the West are not willing to take the long view. They want instant gratification, instant satisfaction. And the world has changed. They're not going

[55:34] to get it >> a lot. I'm I'm I'm I I tell our friends here and on my interviews I always say that Ukraine, Georgia, what we've seen with NATO expansion, what we're seeing now with Armenia, Azarbaian, we saw the five leaders of the Central Asian republics go to Washington after Putin called basically chokar took to Moscow for consult consultative talks. I'm concerned that the US strategy is now even more aggressive in some ways and the Europeans especially.

[56:05] >> I agree. expand uh to include Sweden and Finland. Now, I'm nervous because we're seeing how how serious is the threat of the dual remitarizations, Germany and Japan. I didn't think I'd see it in my lifetime, >> but we're seeing >> totally totally agree. I'm worried about the Germans especially. I was in Germany a few weeks ago again and I met with the national security adviser to one of the the left-wing parties. We had this conversation about national

[56:38] guilt. The Germans still feel widespread national guilt for the Holocaust. >> Mhm. But this guilt has so paralyzed them that they've bent over backwards to serve the Israelis to the point where today they are complicit in a genocide against the Palestinians. And so now Germany is a pro genocide

[57:08] state again. It's like congratulations you guys. you want to help the Israelis, you know, build the concentration camps because that's what's happening. >> Yep. >> It's actually uh interesting because Germany turned around and said, "Actually, you know, Israel, can you help us rearm this time?" And so now Israel is actually helping them with the rearming, which it's like everything is coming full circle and it's all kind of coming apart at the seams. All these sort of historical fallacies that we've always said that doesn't make any sense.

[57:38] this doesn't make any it's all coming out now like oh that's why it's never made any sense >> another another important component of this I was just at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum and while I was there I had consultive talks with the Serbian delegation some of the Serbians and they told me a shocking fact I wasn't aware of course I know Dodic in Republic of Serbska is close to Netanyahu Vhuch has a close relationship with Netanyahu but the Israelis are building five drone factories in Serbia

[58:09] five they told me and they were happy about it because they said well Bosnia are a bunch of Islamists and I was like where did you get that and they're like, "Because we need to combat them and we see how well they're doing against the Islamists in the region, we want to work with them." And I said, "Guys, this is crazy." >> It's that same sort of Israeli play on emotions they did with the Greeks. It's like the Turks are coming. You better start arming yourselves. We'll put your own factories in your country. >> Yeah. >> To which I remind everybody what my grandmother used to say, better the

[58:40] Sultan's turban than the Frankish tiara. Right. >> There it is. And that's the truth. That's how my our families are. Okay. Yes. Turks, they're bastards, but they're are bastards. >> Yes. >> THESE OTHER ONES, WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING to do with them. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Well, I know we told you we'd keep it to an hour, but I want both of you to to kind of discuss where you see all of this going. What's happening now? We have Israel striking Lebanon today. I'm sure that Iran will retaliate for that. I'm just not really um I can't really

[59:11] get a full uh prediction from myself, so I'm going to cheat off you guys. >> I'm not optimistic. Uh I I had been going to the Persian Gulf um with regularity every every three or four weeks until the war broke out. I'd love to get going again. I've been talking to my partners in the Gulf and they were like, "Don't come. Don't come. We don't know what's going to happen. They bomb the airport. They bomb the hotel. They bomb this country and that country and the other country. Don't come." I don't see any any end in sight. I really don't.

[59:42] >> I don't either. I have the same view. And I also think that we're going to enter into a uh cold war type scenario where there won't be a peace agreement. It just won't be necessarily bombing consistently. It'll be a couple days bombing and retaliation and then quiet and then retaliation and then quiet and then a bombing and then retaliation and quiet. I think we're going to enter into a long period of that. I think we should be prepared for a long cold war type 2.0 scenario. in a in a cold war type scenario, I see it more as I see the United States as kind of rather weak and

[1:00:14] attacking Iran almost as a proxy of China in this sort of cold war AI race that they're that they're in. So maybe in that respect I don't I don't see I I don't I don't know this Iran this Iran conflict has really thrown me for a loop because we know what they're really after and it's China. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, China comes out as the winner. No matter what happens to the rest of the players, China's the winner in all this. >> We'll have to send you that meme where

[1:00:44] it says it's the picture of Xi and it says, "Do nothing, win." And it's just >> so true. >> It's just sitting there. John, this was such a fantastic interview. Chris, do you have anything else? You got cut off so many times. I want >> I want to thank you so much. I'm sorry for my internet problems, but it's a pleasure to see you again. I miss our conversations almost weekly. >> I do, too. Yeah, they were. They were almost weekly. >> Let's make it happen. Well, le less than weekly, but >> that's okay. We'll do it again. >> Yes. Thank you so much, John. And

[1:01:17] >> Dana, thank you for everything. >> Have a good Have a good day, John. >> Bye. >> That was an amazing show. >> Done. Awesome. Awesome. As always, oh my god. >> I don't mind. I didn't know you guys knew each other so well. I forgot you were both Greek. So that was really so that was good energy to see. >> What a He is so like charismatic and and like engaging in person. That was so nice. >> No, it was fantastic. I I love We should have him on again. There's a lot of things I actually want to do a deep dive

[1:01:48] into his life because his life story is amazing. And he was involved in some episodes in Greek life that are very interesting with the terrorist group. November 17th, attempted assassination against him, things like that. There was there's a lot of interesting things. So we'll have him on again. I'd like to have him on my show, too. We're going to do a good work with him. >> You should. I'll give you his assistance. She's fantastic. She's replies like that. She's a She's She's great. So, I'll give you his assistance contact. >> But Wednesday or Well, before that, sign

[1:02:18] the petition and then tomorrow night is John's webinar with Cam or Covert Action. And so, get your tickets to that. The profits will be obviously going to support John's pardon campaign. And just like John said in the episode, Trump has pardoned more people than any other previous president. And there's no reason why John shouldn't be receiving one as well. Although, I'm not sure I want John to be amongst that pantheon of people. >> Listen, just get him a pardon and we'll move on, you know.

[1:02:48] >> Yeah, we'll get him a pardon. We'll forget how we got it. We'll move on. We won't acknowledge the other people that Trump gave pardons to, >> but that was that was a fantastic show. And on Wednesday, we will be covering the circus. All circus, no bread. That is the World Cup. Have you heard about this? They're making the Iranian team stay in Mexico and not even allowing them to sleep here. Now, let me clarify, too. It's not like they're staying in Mexico and playing in Texas. >> The game the the Iranian Egypt game is in Seattle. I'm trying to go. So, they

[1:03:19] have to fly from Mexico to Seattle, play the game, and fly back. They're not allowed to spend any nights in America. Listen, um, we're supporting the team 100% and I look forward to bringing some good content around the World Cup and stay tuned. It's gonna be big. >> Stay tuned. We will see you guys on Wednesday and we hope that you enjoyed this interview. Much more to come. Thank you again. >> Lots of love everybody.
