Title: #356 — Nuclear War, Vault 7, Mossad in Iran
Show: Julian Dorey Podcast
Date: 2025-11-18
URL: https://youtu.be/F3MFGJFh4Ps
Duration: 197:00

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[00:00] We were talking about nuclear war. I think it's something that we do have to fear. It's very complicated. As you said, listen, every president from when I joined the CIA, the Israelis [music] asked us to bomb Iran. You got to bomb Iran. You got to bomb Iran. And every single president said, "No." Our position was that that would be the start of World War II. The reason though that Donald Trump decided to bomb Iran was that the Israelis said, "If you don't bomb Iran," they had never threatened that before. It's the most extreme right-wing government in the history of Israel. [music] One other

[00:30] thing, too, I have a friend. He was my first boss at the CIA. In his retirement, [music] he writes books about these little niche foreign policy issues. I couldn't put the book down. And it's not just Gaza. It's Libya, Yemen, and Iran, and Iraq. It could [music] be a disaster. I could see the Israelis using one on Iran, the Indians and Pakistanis using them against [music] each other. >> Two questions. How realistic is that? And two, what does the aftermath of that look like? It's frightening. So >> Palanteer themselves, I mean, that's a whole another level. What kinds of things right now are you most concerned

[01:02] about? >> I worry about the violation of our civil liberties. It is against the law to spy on Americans, period. [music] And that's practically all they do where they had to build this new facility out in Utah that can hold every phone call, every text message, every email from every American for the next 500 years. And now Palunteer is a trillion dollar company that makes most of its money contracting with the CIA. How about this? The metadata from your communications is for sale. >> Mike Yaggley, he bought a bunch of data in North Carolina and tracked a bunch of phones leaving Fort Bragg, go across to Syria for 5 days, realized they were

[01:33] special forces for some undercover operation they were doing. And he went to the government and showed them and he said, "I did this in my bedroom. What do you think China's doing?" So, espionage work in the United States. >> We'll talk about that. >> Yeah. >> Hey guys, thank you so much for clicking this video. This one with John was, as always, awesome. the guy's the best. So, if you have not already, please hit that subscribe button. It is the number one piece of help we can get to get these videos into the algorithm. I appreciate everyone who's been clicking these videos, staying on and watching them for

[02:04] a long time. You guys are doing awesome with that. I'm glad you're enjoying everything. If we can get that subscribe button, hit a little more, this show can really grow and we can really take off. So, thank you guys and enjoy the episode. >> [music] >> Johnny K, superstar. You get bigger and bigger every time you come back here. >> I was pumping gas yesterday and two guys at different pumps asked me for selfies.

[02:34] >> You love that. That's awesome. >> I do. >> Where is it, though? >> I haven't. Is it under there? >> I haven't found it yet. >> Steve, have you seen it? >> What's that? your pardon, John. Pardon? >> Where the is your pardon? >> Oh, man. You know, >> I've been waiting. I've been looking at Daryl Strawberry got pardoned for three decades ago the other day. >> Daryl Strawberry, the the Binance guy hurts because he didn't even apply for a pardon. And he said on the radio the

[03:04] other day, he's never met Donald Trump. >> Yeah. Donald Trump said he has no idea who the guy is. It's like the auto pen ALL OVER AGAIN. DONNIE, DONNIE, BABY, PARDON. Let's go. I will say I have very strong deep support in the Trump administration for a pardon. And I don't want to say too much, but like everybody who I have asked to help me has helped me. And I know that I I was told that my file is literally

[03:34] on the pardon attorney's desk. So, I just have to hope for the best. >> Well, we got to take his little finger there. signed Donald J. Trump. >> Yeah, let's go. I don't care if it's I don't care who it is. Whatever it is that gets it through gets the document. You deserve it. >> Thank you. >> I think it's it's awesome to see you finally getting like the widespread recognition you've deserved for a long time. >> Well, you know, in in great part I have you to thank for that. I I mentioned to you two years ago, was it two years ago?

[04:04] No, it's about a year and a half ago that in short order I did your podcast, Dalton Fischer and Danny Jones, >> one right [clears throat] after the other over the course of maybe two months. And for whatever reason, the three of you together talking about these issues just allowed me to hit the YouTube algorithm sweet spot. >> Well, that's great to hear. And like I think I think what was good is you had a couple years there going on Danny Jo on

[04:36] Danny Jones's show where I think you did a few episodes before you did Dalton's and mine with with Danny and you got to go through not just your full story but then show >> your foreign policy chops now and how you look at the world and I think people got to see a nuanced view in you because when you just hear the story you're like okay obviously he's pissed off at CIA or whatever but then you hear you like talk about things and talk through issues and the complexity of these things and your ability to be purely analytical rather

[05:08] than, you know, injecting in some of your old annoying, you know, >> yeah, >> people that obviously did some horrible things to you that could bias your opinion. Like you do an amazing job of just saying, well, here's A, here's B, here's C, here's D. That's why it's E. And I like that a lot about you. >> Thank you. You know, when I was still in the U director of intelligence, the analytic uh director of the CIA, I was I was asked to mentor this new hire, young woman, fantastically smart. She had gone to like Dartmouth.

[05:39] No, no, no. Her brother went to Dartmouth. She went to UVA. Very, very bright. So, they assigned her to work on just kind of an entry- level account. It was uh the United Arab Emirates like learn the politics and the economics and then you know you can write something whatever. So one day Iran sent like five troops to this little uninhabited island in the Persian Gulf called Greater Tun. Tu NB. It's even hard to say. There's Greater

[06:11] Tun and Lesser Tun. >> Is that where the Shai used to vacation? >> No. No. There's nothing there. and a couple of goats. Literally, that's it. That's all that's on this island. So, they moved into the tomb. There are the tunes. >> And uh >> that doesn't even look real. >> I know. It's It's terrible. And so, we're talking about it in the morning meeting that the Iranians invaded greater Tun and they're occupying. It's like, like I said, five guys just, you know, got off the raft and okay, they

[06:41] put the Iranian flag. So afterwards, after the meeting, we went back to our cubicles and we were talking about it and I said, "The Iranians never never going to leave this island." She said, "Why not? It's, you know, with relations with the UAE, they have so much so much to lose." I said, "But that's the thing. Their relations are with Dubai. The Tunis are owned by charara, and the Dubians don't care if the charges lose a couple of square feet of sand. it

[07:12] doesn't make any difference because their relationship with the with the Iranians is so strong economically that they're willing just to overlook it. Later in the afternoon, she came back from wherever she had gone and she said, "I resigned." And I was like, "What? Why would you do that?" She was great. >> And she said, after we talked about the tunes, she said, "I realized I'll never know the Middle East like you do." And so I just quit. And she became a real

[07:44] estate agent. >> She quit because you were so smart. >> She quit because she was like, "Too much detail. >> Too much detail. I I don't want to learn it. I don't care to learn it. Nobody's going to give a [ __ ] about it." >> She quit. >> I felt so bad. >> I really did. >> I hope she found happiness in real estate. >> I hope so, too. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that is the thing though. When you look at even just one part of the world and I say just one part of the world, Middle East is a big part but like that particular segment of the

[08:15] world the number of moving pieces there and the smallest little things >> very complicated. >> Isn't it unbelievable that we don't have >> I mean obviously we've had a terrible war going on in Gaza that maybe is ending now. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. But isn't it crazy that we don't have like literal bombs going off every day there when you consider just how uous every relationship is. >> You're absolutely right. And it's not just Gaza. It It's Libya. It's Sudan, South Sudan, Yemen. I mean, it could it

[08:47] could happen pretty much anywhere besides Syria and Iran and Iraq and Lebanon. And it could be it could be a disaster. Yeah. And it's not quite a disaster. Maybe with the exception of of Gaza and the the Sudans. M well the last time I had you here was back in February. So this is before >> the whole attack on Iran >> and what seemed to die down after that but I don't know some of that feels like a little bit of eerie silence. I hope I'm wrong about that. What

[09:19] >> what is the the standing there? Obviously most of the Iranian population doesn't support their current leadership, but you had Israel who clearly wants regime change. They pulled us into it to basically like bomb Florida, the nuclear sites, >> and luckily like nothing kind of happened after that and it's been pretty quiet since. But am I missing something there? Is is there more of that story at this point? >> There's there's more. Um it's very complicated as you said a second ago, the whole region is the the Iranian

[09:51] government has practiced a policy called strategic patience. That's what they've described it as in the Iranian media, strategic patience. >> And that's manifested itself in a couple of different ways. When when the Israelis first attacked, the re the Iranian response was to not strike back. And then the Israelis attacked a second time. And the is the Iranian response was to send drones.

[10:21] Drones move very slowly. And so the Iranians actually warned the Israelis in advance. We're sending drones. Um almost all of them were shot down. Something like seven got through which is a learning experience because it shows that the Iron Dome is not perfect even against slow motion drones. Then the Israelis uh you know killed

[10:52] essentially the entire Iranian military leadership just took them all out. Do you know how they did that? >> Very precise strikes by the way. >> Very very precise. Not not that they even needed to be precise because the Israeli policy is if they want to kill you and you're in an apartment block, they'll take the entire city block out and kill 2,000 people if they think they can get you. >> That's a policy there. >> That's a policy. And that's why Hezbala, for all intents and purposes, no longer exists.

[11:22] >> It will again in six months. >> An attitude. I just want to be clear. Is is it like an attitude that their military has to say it, we're going to do whatever we want. Or is it an actual written like it's from the Israeli political leadership? >> Wow. >> Yeah. So what they did is there are hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees in Iran, right? They'll never get Iranian citizenship. And because they don't have paperwork,

[11:53] they're not entitled to free medical, to food, aid, welfare, nothing. And they're desperate. Well, those are the guys that the Israelis recruited. M >> it's like we want you to stand on this corner and every time you see this general drive by make a note of it and then transmit it back to us. Here's $100. >> They recruited thousands of these guys. >> How would they Could you walk me through some common >> tactics and ways that they would recruit

[12:23] someone like that? Like where are they meeting them? How are they meeting them? >> Sure. This is an easy recruitment that any, you know, brand new case officer can do. It's essentially a cold pitch. But you're cold pitching someone who's so desperate that they'll do anything. >> Mhm. >> There's no love of Iran among these Afghans cuz the Iranians haven't given them anything. There's no hatred of Israel because maybe these guys don't even know it's the Israelis that are asking them to work. They could be saying, "Oh, we're from the Mujahulk MEK or we're from Iraq or we're from,

[12:57] you know, Pakistan or whatever." They don't have to say we're Israeli intelligence officers. Those of you who watch my show know I love walking through New York. I never take the Uber. I don't even like taking the subway. So, one day last year when it was snowing a little bit out there, I took a meeting up on 57th Street by Central Park. To get into the city, you take the PAT train right in and then I'm always walking right after that. On this particular day though, it was literally seting outside. So, I was wearing a nice outfit, had the jeans rocking, my new barber jacket. I was swagged out except

[13:27] where it mattered the most, and that was with my socks. as I decided to cut a corner there and within 10 blocks of starting that walk, my feet were soaked and my $300 boots that I was really proud of weren't holding up too great. I got to the meeting looking like and my feet were throbbing. Didn't go too well after that. You know how I could have avoided this problem? If I had some hollow socks and just what are hollow socks? Alpaca socks built for the field or New York City in the snow. These are performance-grade socks made from ultra soft baby alpaca fibers engineered for rugged conditions and designed to keep

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[15:00] clear, not be native Israelis. >> Oh, I would suspect that almost none of them are native Israelis. >> Meaning they're not undercover trying to pose like Ellie Cohen did as another. >> Correct. Okay. >> Correct. These are probably Iranians who have been recruited by the Israelis overseas or what would be even better for the Israelis is if they are Iranian Jews who maybe immigrated >> and can be sent back. >> Interesting. Okay. So, they would get a

[15:30] lot of these guys easy approaches >> like the the street type taskers easy approaches because they they got nothing going for them. And then what they end up getting is, you know, jobs in these generals houses as a tiwala, a tea boy, or >> that could mean a few things. >> Sweep sweep the floor. And oftentimes it does mean a few things. [laughter] Uh, sweep the floors, wash the car, whatever. Then you get the general's cell phone number. M >> well we know that the Israelis targeted each individual's cell phone number so

[16:01] they could track it when as it's moving around town and fire rockets directly at whoever happens to be holding the cell phone. So the Iranian government then said as a new policy no generals and no nuclear scientist can carry cell phones. So you know what the Israelis did because the Israelis ended up killing them all. >> What' they do? They realized that the Iranians never told the bodyguards that they can't carry cell phones. >> Somewhere Mike Yaggley is just hitting the table right now. God damn it.

[16:33] [laughter] >> I will say the one the one thing that I was really really worried would lead to something terrible was when we decided to bomb Iran at the Israelis behest. >> Yeah. Now, why would we do that, John? Well, there's there's a good reason why we would do it. Before it was done, I would have thought it was insanity. >> Mhm. >> After it's been done, I think I've come

[17:03] to the con conclusion that, all right, that wasn't so bad after all, >> really. >> So, yeah. Um, [snorts] listen, every president from when I joined the CIA and George HW Bush had just become president. The Israelis asked us to bomb Iran. Every single president, no matter who the prime minister of Israel happens to be, you got to bomb Iran. You got to bomb Iran. You got to bomb Iran. And every single president said, "No, we're not bombing Iran." I remember a couple of times when Obama,

[17:36] was it Obama? Obama and Netanyahu got into shouting matches. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. That we didn't have an understanding or an appreciation of what a an existential threat Iran was or a nuclear Iran was. You got to bomb Iran. You got to bomb Iran. We would never bomb Iran because the our our position was that that would be the start of World War II because if we bomb Iran and maybe, you know, weakened the the hold that the government has on the country, then the Chinese may have to

[18:07] come in or the Russians may have to come in. >> That was going to be my next question. Did this just prove that this situation, seeing as we did bomb sites there and nothing happened, did this prove that the Chinese and the Russians actually don't really give a [ __ ] about Iran, or is that a little premature to say? >> Maybe just a little premature, but I would say as things stand right now, yeah, that's that's the initial conclusion we can draw. The reason though, I'm told that Donald Trump decided to bomb Iran was that the

[18:38] Israelis said for the first time, if you don't bomb Iran to take out these deep bunkers, we're going to use nuclear weapons. And they had never threatened that before. And so Trump said, "Bombing Iran might actually save us from the start of World War II if it keeps the Israelis from using nuclear weapons." So according to your source, the Israelis told the president of the United States that if he did not use the United States military power to bomb the nuclear

[19:08] facilities in Iran, Israel acting on its own would use nuclear weapons. >> Yeah. >> Do you see why there's a problem with that statement, John? >> Yeah. >> Because they've never admitted that they've had them. That's right. >> So you're telling me that they just admitted to the president of the United States that they have nuclear weapons and we still do not have them in the IAEA treaty? I mean, if if Israeli nuclear whistleblowers are to be believed, yeah, they've had them they started working on them in the 50s. Um, they got him around the late 60s or the early '7s. Look at Look at Morai Venunu.

[19:41] >> Mhm. >> You know, he wasn't charged for treason for nothing. >> That's a guy who they hid in Rome with the honeypot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 86. >> No, he friended me on Facebook. I I rejected the friend request. [laughter] That's not what I asked, but okay. >> I know. But you said was he 86? No. No. He's alive. >> No, no, no, no. Not 86. I think they they got him in 198 >> Oh, in ' 86. Yeah, they got him in ' 86. >> That's right. He friend requested you on Facebook.

[20:12] >> Yeah. And I was like, "Yeah, no, thank you. [laughter] I I have enough problems in my life." Yeah. Anyway, I was on uh I was on Pierce Morgan show a couple of months ago and I'm on with a retired Mossad general Danny >> I alone. >> I alone. Thank you. >> So Alan Dersitz was on. >> Oh god. >> And I just can't help myself sometimes when Alan Dersowitz and I are in the same room. I just can't help it. He's

[20:42] just such on the one hand he's a very kind and generous man. On the other hand, when it comes to Israel, he's he's irrational. >> How so? >> There's literally nothing that the Israelis can do that's wrong. Nothing. And he won't let you get a word out. If he thinks that you might possibly criticize Israel, he's going to interrupt you until you just give up and move on. So, I'm arguing [laughter] I'm arguing with him about um about whether or not

[21:16] Israel spies on the United States. I said, "Of course they spy on the United States. They're prolific in their espionage work in the United States, especially as it relates to American defense contractors, right?" And um and Pierce finally interrupts Dersowitz and asks General Ayalon um if if it's true that uh that the Israeli spy on the United States. And he

[21:46] just laughed. [laughter] He goes like that and he says, "My position is whatever the prime minister's position is." >> Okay. Well, thank you for confirming that Israel spies on the United States. It's the same thing with the nuclear program. PICE came right out and asked him, "Does Israel have nuclear weapons?" >> What did he say? >> And he said, "Well, the prime minister hasn't confirmed that there are nuclear weapons. So, I'm just going to go with what the prime minister says, >> but breaking news. You just reported here today based on your source that not

[22:17] only has the prime minister confirmed it, he confirmed it to the president of our country." >> One other thing, too. I have a friend. He was my first boss at the CIA. He's a really, really great guy. He retired years ago. And >> John Brennan. >> No, he's not a really great guy. [laughter] No, >> we'll talk about that. >> Yeah. So, in his retirement, he writes books about these little niche foreign policy issues that you might say, "Well, who gives a [ __ ] about that?" And then you read the book and you can't put it down. like US Indian relations during

[22:50] the Kennedy administration. I couldn't put the book down or some obscure little window in the 70s of US Saudi relations, stuff like that. So anyway, he told me that like we all do, he sent his book into the CIA publications review board for clearance before he sent it to the publisher. Um, and he said that in all the books he's written, and he's written at least a half a dozen, um, they only took out um, three words,

[23:23] Israeli nuclear program. >> And I said, why? It's it's not up to us to protect the fact that there's an Israeli nuclear program. We didn't classify any Israeli nuclear program. That was improperly classified. And he said, "Yeah, I knew it." But then I thought, ah, it's easier just to just to take it out. >> I don't have any problem with I mean, if it were up to me, no, nobody in the world would have nukes, but seeing as that's not the case, I don't have any

[23:53] problem with them having nukes. >> I have a problem with the fact that every country around the world who even might have nukes has to admit to it and register >> and they don't >> and sign the nonation treaty afterwards. >> Yeah. And it's like it's insulting to hear that over and you see the same reaction that you just described over and over again. Anytime a spokesperson of Israel is being asked about it, I mean they sweat like a [ __ ] in church when you ask them about nuclear weapons. They all know. >> Yeah. >> But they're like, "Yeah, no. We don't have them." It's like, "Yeah, but >> they all are compelled to play this

[24:24] silly game." >> Yeah. >> It's like what? >> Exactly. >> But it's been 50 It's been almost 60 years. Mhm. And there are credible reports that when the apartheid regime fell in South Africa, they had nukes and they gave them to the Israelis. Like why why aren't we talking about that? >> They gave them >> Uhhuh. >> I don't know anything about this. >> Yeah. >> Can we Google that? Oh, that was that's been around for decades. South African nuclear program, Israel,

[24:54] something like that. >> Interesting. >> Mhm. I mean there there was a period in the 70s when Argentina and Brazil were going at it and they were both starting to develop nukes and then they both backed off. Can you imagine? >> God damn. All right. Deep's got it. So Israel and South Africa had a secret defense and nuclear cooperation particularly after the 1975 Israel South Africa agreement. While Israel reportedly provided South Africa with technology, knowledge, and equipment to help with its armaments needs, there is

[25:25] no conclusive evidence of significant assistance in developing South Africa's nuclear devices. However, documents from 2010 suggest Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to Africa and [clears throat] then there's like a lot below here as or to South Africa. There's a lot below here. So this is like >> this is going forward >> the Vela incident in 1979 satellite >> detected a double flash of light which is why they believed to have been a nuclear explosion >> a joint South African Israeli test. So

[25:55] so at the least what it would appear is that there was some cooperation on development or at least working with the materials which also would signify that you have them. I mean, >> and remember at the time the the regime in South Africa was staunchly pro-Israel, especially in the United Nations. It was one of the few countries that Israel could routinely count on. >> That's interesting. So, back then in the 70s and 80s, you're saying? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I

[26:27] This whole peace deal that just went down. >> Yeah. >> Which is tenuous. >> It's not a peace deal. It's it's just a ceasefire. It doesn't address a single one of the core issues. Not a single one. >> You know, stop shooting is not a peace deal. >> Yeah. Do you see like I'm rooting for it. I'm rooting for some and obviously there's been some now like they're fighting over what dead

[26:57] bodies look like when they got like [ __ ] exchanged and all that. And there's there's been some funny business going on on both sides. But like I said, I'm rooting for a ceasefire to continue. Me too. And I will commend even if I don't like the leadership of both sides, which I don't. I will commend the people for at least trying to do that. >> See, that's exactly my position, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Do you have faith that something like this could be sustainable, though? >> Not with the current Israeli government in place. No. It's the most extreme

[27:29] right-wing government in the history of Israel to the point where the minister of finance who oddly yes Motric oddly also has jurisdiction over the West Bank >> and Idomar Bengavir the minister of what's his title now national security I guess it is they both have felony convictions for anti-Muslim hate crimes felony convictions for hate crimes not for you know failing to fill out an internet form or something like that like we have here

[28:01] >> and they're in charge of the Palestinians. >> So, so as as long as those guys are in in place, there's no possible way that there can be a lasting peace. And listen, the the bottom line, too, is there's going to have to be an independent Palestine. There just has to be because the current situation's untenable. The Israeli press has been talking a lot over the last several weeks, maybe over the last month, about

[28:31] an idea where Israel would technically continue to own Gaza, but the day-to-day life of Gaza would be administered by Saudi Arabia, which would also then invest in things like an electrical grid, water desalination plants, a port. Yeah. and it would have to be um disarmed. There would have to be no Palestinian military. Great, right? It's a great idea. And I've said it a couple of times in podcasts. In 1991, I was on

[29:03] my very first overseas tour in Saudi Arabia, brand new um CIA officer. And I was working for an ambassador who really became legendary, Chaz Freeman. He went on to be ambassador to China and assistant secretary of defense. The guy is brilliant. Um, he he floated the idea with the Saudis. What if we were to ask you to build a port and an airport and a water desalination plant and and an

[29:35] electrical grid? And they said, "Yeah, we would do it in Gaza." And then we went to the Israelis and the Israelis said, "Absolutely never." That was 1991. And before October 7th, they only had but 5 hours of of water every day. Then the Israelis would shut it off. They would have a few hours of electricity. Then the Israelis would shut it off. The situation's untenable because another another October 7th is going to happen if there's not a sort of a pressure

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[38:02] and feed and clothe and employ them. They can't do it, >> right? >> They just can't do it. The other one is Jordan. Most people now are too young to remember that in 1968, the Jordanian military was literally fighting the Palestinians on the steps of the palace as Black September, the Palestinian group, was trying to to murder King Hussein and his family and take over Jordan and make it Palestine. >> Y >> Well, they have long memories in Jordan.

[38:34] Yeah. Half the population is Palestinian because they're the children, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren of 1948 refugees. >> So is half the royal couple. >> And so is half the royal couple. Absolutely true. Um but the thing is they'll never be fully Jordanian. In fact, Jordanians have, you know, carry a green passport and if you're Palestinian bord in in Jordan, you carry a black passport. >> So you don't even get first class rights. So, it's very complicated. Like, people

[39:06] say the right things, governments in the Middle East say the right things about Palestinians, but when it comes time to put their money where their mouths are, not a whole lot gets done. >> So, putting Jordan aside for a second, because there's another layer there that maybe we can come back to that you and I have talked about before. One argument that the Israelis have made over the years that I think really does have some weight to it is that a lot of the Middle East and the Arab countries don't really

[39:37] give a [ __ ] about the Palestinians. They're just a useful, you know, tool of propaganda to be able to say, "Oh, look what the Israelis are doing." But they don't really care about the people. And I would argue even today, even after the last two years and what we've seen in some cases, I I think they're right about that. I think so too. And I think that's one of the reasons why the Abraham Accords have been so uh popular and so wellreceived around the Middle East. Just in the last week, Kazakhstan of all places joined the the Abraham

[40:08] Accords >> to include Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, you know, Tunisia, Morocco, Sudan. I may be missing one or two. And the the crown jewel is going to be Saudi Arabia. And I think eventually Saudi Arabia joins as well >> because the bottom line is it'll be good for the Saudi economy. and uh and they don't really care about the Palestinians so terribly much. >> There's been obviously MBS is where it starts and ends with the book in Saudi Arabia% but there's been some mixed

[40:39] messaging from the extended royal family when they talk publicly about Israel Palestine. There's some who are clearly supporting Israel and others who are like no we're we need to figure out Gaza here. What they're doing to the Palestinians is wrong. >> Remember that the king's title is not just king Malik. It is king [snorts] and custodian of the two holy mosques. >> So he has to have pristine Islamic credentials as well. >> None of them do. I mean King Fed took it

[41:11] on the chin for you know coming here when Reagan was president and you know there there were pictures from the Associated Press of him toasting Reagan with a glass of wine. You're not supposed to drink wine. They were ready to overthrow the government. They were so upset. >> But um >> but NBS is a is a unique case. Um, he's not afraid to kill people who he thinks are going to stand in his way, including people named >> al-Soud. >> Uh, and well, I I'll tell you, uh, Julian, I I

[41:43] went to Saudi Arabia in 2021 or two. I went I went to cover uh Biden's trip there. >> Oh, you were covering it? Yeah, I was there in 2022, I think. It was the summer of 2022. And I hadn't been back to Saudi Arabia since like 1996, right? So, it had been a long time since I had been in Saudi Arabia. And I didn't recognize the place. >> Women driving. I was like, "Oh my god."

[42:16] [laughter] Windows down, music blasting, their movie theaters. I'm like, "What happened?" [laughter] And here I've been yelling about the Saudis being, you know, from the stone age and it's just not true under NBS, his murderous, you know, uh, Jackal and Hyde. >> Little murder for trade. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, when he said he was going to he was going to bring Saudi Arabia into the 21st century, he meant it. >> He did. He and it happened quickly. [snorts] >> You know, I remember bowling I I went I

[42:46] when I was living there in '91, I went bowling at the Hilton, right? It was a group of us from the embassy. There was a there was a two-lane bowling alley on the roof of the Hilton and um they had to put a big uh curtain in between [clears throat] us. It was a curtain that was hanging from the uh from the ceiling. So the men bowled on one side and the women bowled on the other side and we could hear each other but we were forbidden from seeing each other >> like your own women. >> Yeah. From the embassy. Cuz you know if men and women bold together the next thing you know they're going to be having sex in the bowling lane.

[43:17] >> Wouldn't want that. >> Of course. >> Wouldn't want that. So I say, "Hey, look, you know, they're moving up to the modern day." >> Yeah. Now it's like, you know, they're blasting Tupac from the car and women driving. They're hanging out of the window. Woo! It's like I remember standing at the window of my hotel like like I was in the Twilight Zone. >> That's So they get to relive the '9s, too, while they're getting their pop culture. Seriously, good time to be alive. Good for them. >> Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge, huge help. Thank you. Do you

[43:49] going over the the whole Middle East though? May maybe we should go back to Jordan for a sec just because I I said I put a pin in that. You and I have talked about this before, but like the Jordanian king who I actually kind of like. He's very very interesting guy. >> Yeah, he's he's the right leader for that country. >> He when you look at his foreign policy predictions over the last 25 years, I mean every people should just listen to that guy. Like he's almost never wrong. Oh, I would go so far as to say of everybody in the region or everybody who studies the region, no one knows as much

[44:21] as King Abdullah. >> I think you have a good argument there. I mean, he's he's this guy who never wanted the job. He's been western educated as well. >> Never expected to get the job. >> Never expected to get it. His dad was dying and said, "It's going to be you, not the other son." He was like, "What?" No, no, it was it was the king's brother >> that was the crown prince and they had >> I thought he was getting skipped over and it was going to be the oldest son that was going to get it and then he said, "No, I'm going to give it to the second son." >> No, no, he is. He's the oldest. >> He is? >> Yeah.

[44:51] >> Okay. >> Yeah. Uh the brother got a little too big for his britches. The King Hussein had cancer. Yeah. >> And his death was a slow one. And he was universally loved. >> My wife cried when he died. We were stationed in Athens at the time. I was like, "Your second wife." >> My first wife. >> First wife. >> Yeah. >> Uh he was universally loved. And um his death was a slow one. And so as he was approaching death, the crown prince decided, "I'm going to start making some

[45:22] preliminary changes. I'm going to make this change and that change. I'm going to restaff the Joint Chiefs of Staff." And and King Hussein's like, "Whoa, I'm not even dead yet. We're not going to do this. You're fired. my son uh Abdullah is going to be the crown prince. And Abdullah's like, "What? I never wanted to be crown prince." Next thing you know, he's crown prince. And then his dad dies a couple months later. >> Yeah. [snorts] Now, he I've talked about this before with you, but >> he was asked at some conference

[45:53] in the weeks after October 7th, 2023. Among many questions, he was being obviously asked about the about the conflict that was going on and and what this looked like and all that. But then he of course was asked, "Will you accept Palestinian refugees?" And he said, "I'm glad you asked that question." And I will not. Not because I don't want them, not because I don't like them. My wife is Palestinian. That's not the issue here. If I do accept them though, I will give Israel exactly what they want. They will be able to ethnically

[46:25] cleanse the whole area. They'll go to countries like mine, and the problem will be taken care of. And I then fast forwarded and saw a press conference with him and Trump in the Oval Office when Trump got back in here where Trump's talking about sending some Palestinians in there and you just see the king sitting there like, "God damn it." >> Yep. Not going to happen. It's just not. And you know, if if Donald Trump's idea to develop uh Gaza and make it better than Monte

[46:56] Carlo, which is what he said, go with God. The Palestinians could use the influx of cash. Sure, make it better than Monte Carlo. I think that would be a wonderful thing. >> I don't think he has them in mind running it, though. >> No. So, >> he doesn't. No, he never did. >> He never did. And that's like, you know, that's the thing you you talk about it as the obvious point that like you got to be able to give people a state. There has been so much hatred built up on both sides over all these years since, you

[47:29] know, Israel began to exist and all that that the unfortunate reality to me is that if you were actually as a world going to commit to a two-state solution, you would need to accept the fact that you're going to have what's called the bloody generation, >> which means, all right, let's say tomorrow I put in a two-state solution. For the next 20 to 25 years, I'm going to have all the young blood of people who grew up hating each other, wanting to kill each other, and completely disagreeing with this solution. And

[48:00] every time there's some sort of attack from one side or the other, instead of being like, "Well, nope, can't do a two-state solution. War, someone attacked the other one, and that's it." You have to be able to say, "No, we're going to keep the two-state solution, and it's not going to be war." Which goes against every human guarantee it. They have to guarantee peace. How possible is that even remotely possible? >> It's possible, I suppose. I mean, pretty much anything can be negotiated if if the two sides [snorts] are serious enough about it. Let me let me

[48:32] give you an example of of why I think what you said just now can be overcome. Hm. Um, I was having I was having lunch one day with a Greek diplomat uh at this outdoor cafe in DC and some guy comes up and and uh he says, "Hey, you know, Aphrodite or whatever her name, I think her name was Aphrodite. How are you?" She gets up, "Oh, how are you?" And I was like, "Ok Turkish name." She gets up and kisses this guy on both cheeks and

[49:05] uh he introduces himself. I say hi. I shake his hand. He walks away. And I asked her, "What the [ __ ] was that all about? You kiss a Turk." And she said, "Only you Greek Americans have that position on the Turks. We have to live with them." And after all these centuries of fighting, we just decided it's better to be nice. >> Interesting. >> And I've noticed that I mean leader to leader, sure, there are problems, right? Or or intelligence service to intelligence service, even military to

[49:35] military sometimes. But on the on the people-to-people level, they really don't have any problems. >> That's interesting. Some of my buddies in Greece though, I'm thinking about this. They they all did serve in the military though. >> Yeah, mine too. In fact, I was I took my son to Greece in January. We're at my cousin's house. We're from the island of Roads, which is considered a border island because I mean, you can hear the Turks playing their music at night. That's how close it is. And um we're in we're in a house, my cousin Chris's

[50:06] house that's been in my family for 175 years. So he he's the recipient. Wow. >> Of the of the house. So we're sitting in there and I kind of look past him and I said, "Chris, is that a machine gun?" And he said, "Yeah." I said, "Why do you have a machine gun? How do you have a machine gun?" And he says, "John, I'm former special forces. You see how close these Turks are to us? [laughter] They could swim here by the time I get to the gun."

[50:38] >> He said, 'We have to protect ourselves somehow. That is one thing. So, that aside, >> you know, on the mainland, they don't really care so much. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> That's good. >> Yeah, it's good. >> With that's a long way of saying the Palestinians and the Israelis can get there someday. And you know, people say all the time, too, that there can't be a an independent Palestine. It's just never going to happen. I went to school with this kid, Reheis Pescurius. I still remember his name. Shout out to Remis Pescurius.

[51:08] >> What a name. >> Yeah, he's Lithuanian. And um we went to GW together and he used to he was a militant Lithuanian. He used to say, "Someday Lithuania will be free." And we were like, "Dude, you have to get past this free Lithuania thing. the Soviets are never gonna allow Lithuania to be free. [clears throat] And like six years later, >> yeah, >> there's a free Lithuania. So, you never know. You know, when an issue is ripe, there's nothing you can do to stop it.

[51:41] >> I like your optimism. [laughter] I I hope that's the case. I think in this particular situation, because you also have religion >> Yeah. >> in the middle of it. >> See, this is a very important beef that I have. I hope you'll let me vent for a Oh, you can do whatever you want, John. >> One of the biggest problems that we have in this entire Israel Palestine situation is the problem of Christian Zionists, most of whom are American evangelical Christians. [gasps]

[52:11] Palestine used to be 10% Christian. It's now more like two or 3% Christian. And most of those Christians have moved to the United States. Well, evangelical support for the Israeli government has resulted in an ethnic cleansing and the and the destruction of Christian communities in in historic Palestine. So, what side are you on? Are you trying

[52:41] to save Christianity or are you trying to destroy Christianity? Because you're destroying it right now. And listen, and I'm going to take a lot of [ __ ] in your comment section for saying this, but listen, if your religion was created in somebody's basement in the 1800s, I don't want to hear your position on Israel and Palestine. I don't find it valid. >> Yeah. I I think that there's been people overlooking things. And I I think that the saddest part of this whole struggle

[53:12] is that in society we seem to have an inability to separate people from their governments just at the at the simplest level. I mean you spelled it out before. You're like Netanyahu's government wins with [ __ ] 27% of the vote. It's all the Orthodox Jews over there. >> Exactly. You know, there was a borderline they were very close to civil war in the summer before October 7th, which is quite interesting timing by the way, where Netanyahu seized control of the judiciary 5 weeks before they were ra people were in the streets.

[53:44] We were we were seeing we were seeing demonstrations especially in in Tel Aviv and Hifa that were unprecedented in scale. He was this close to being overthrown and having to call new elections. >> That's the thing, John. It's like we've on every angle of this, we've sacrificed humanity, right? We've watched thousands of people be killed and we fight about it over tweets. Let's call it what it is. Yeah, I'm guilty. I mean, I don't

[54:15] fight a lot on Twitter, but like I'm watching these tweets, too. So, I'm guilty of it just like everyone else. And we also generalize all the people involved. And these are such this is such a nuance situation when it comes to the people involved and who it is. And like you've now seen, you know, I have so many Jewish friends in America who don't [ __ ] with what Israel is doing at all. >> And yet they get dragged into this cuz it's like, you know, >> it's true. It leads to anti-semitism. I was having lunch in New York. I'm gonna

[54:46] say the the weather was nice, so it must have been like May or June sitting with a buddy of mine at an outside uh cafe. And he happens to be Jewish. >> He's not Zionist or fist in the air. He just happens to be Jewish. So, we're talking about this uh about October 7th and the war, about Israel's response to October 7th. and he said, "As a Jew, I really fear that Israel's heavy hand is going

[55:18] to result in increases in anti-semitism, especially in the United States." Well, there were these two women sitting next to us, both in their 80s, they told us later, >> and one of them finally said, "Excuse me, but I couldn't help but to overhear your conversation." She, the one said, "We're both Jewish, too, and we have the same fears. We are seeing an increase in anti-semitism, especially in New York, >> but it's because of the Israeli government's actions. >> Otherwise, most people wouldn't pay any

[55:48] attention >> to what's going on in in Israel. >> Wouldn't care. And and that's >> wouldn't register with them. >> That's what's so like sometimes it feels like society is just being manipulated to break at all times. I've I've for a long time had this quote. I'm sure someone else came up with it at some point. I've just never cared to Google it. But, you know, at least it sounded smart the first time I said it. A divided society is a compliant society. And when you can divide people on one or two really emotional issues, you know,

[56:18] four or five years ago it was COVID and the [ __ ] vaccine and now it's Israel Palestine, you can distract from everything else that you don't want them to know about or you don't want them to focus on. And it's like, you know, I talk with people who are very hardcore Zionist and I talk to people who are very hardcore anti-ionist. And the commonalities I see in those conversations is that they will each make a separate point that is like, "Yes, agree 100%." >> But they're pointing at a problem that's

[56:48] over here. Yeah. And I'm like, >> "Right, >> yes, I agree with you. Now come back here. See how it works this way too, right here at home." And they're like, "Well, no, not whenever it comes to their issue, whatever it is, they're unwilling to see it there, but they'll see it everywhere else." And I'm like, "Guys, if we're, especially from an American perspective, this is my issue with this. You should be worried about the interests of Americans first and what's going on here first. It doesn't mean separate from the world. It doesn't mean become an isolationist, but like

[57:19] you should worry about what are the downstream effects here." So if China, Qatar, Iran, and Israel are all doing propaganda campaigns that involve body counts in the United States, I don't make a distinction between any of them. It's all the same thing. Why is it so hard for you Zionist and you anti-ionist to see you only see these three and you only see that one? >> It's the same [ __ ] >> It's the same thing. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, one of the things too that has been a

[57:52] surprise for me, even if it shouldn't be a surprise is is the difficulty that Americans have in even listening to people who with whom they disagree. >> Yeah. growing up my just like on my dad's side for an examp as an example when my dad's parents came to the United States my my grandmother was a royalist right she supported the Greek royal family which wasn't Greek it was Danish and the king couldn't even speak Greek so he was

[58:23] overthrown which he deserved to be so [laughter] so my grandfather was a was a republic Repan with a small R. Um he supported the establishment of of the Hellenic Republic. Um and um and that's what the Greeks have now. Politically they both somehow became Democrats. On my mom's side, my

[58:53] grandparents didn't give two shits about politics in Greece and they became Republicans and most of their kids were Republicans. My mom was a Democrat, but my uncles voted for Wallace in ' 68 very very happily. >> And I remember my I won't even say it because yeah, it's it involves some not very nice words, but uh they voted for Wallace, my two uncles, and um and then I I still remember being a little kid and seeing the Nixon now buttons that they that they had on. So, it just never

[59:25] occurred to me that there were people out there who wouldn't speak to other people just because they believe in one thing or don't believe in another. My best friends from high school, best friends. I mean, we're all in each other's weddings. We're godfathers to each other's kids. Dave McCrack and Dave's passed away, but Dave was a was a Republican, Gary Senko Republican, Guy Cabellis a Democrat, and Russ Kleta a Democrat. And it never mattered to any of us. And I just don't, you know, people say all the time, I

[59:56] can't believe you would go on Fox News. Why wouldn't I go on Fox News? I have a position on an issue like John Brennan. It happens to fit in with Fox News's editorial position, but maybe I can educate a Fox News viewer. >> Sure. >> If I go on tonight and I have my 20 seconds to speak my piece. >> Yeah. I think I think it's very deliberate from they whoever they >> Yeah. They they don't want us to talk to one another. >> They don't want us to do it. >> Mhm. >> Like for example, I'm sorry to interrupt

[1:00:27] you. I'm fascinated by this fissure that we're seeing right now uh among conservatives about Tucker Carlson's decision to interview Nick Fuentes. >> Okay. >> Okay. Why wouldn't you interview Nick Fuentes? If you think he's a turd with with repulsive positions, then expose him as a turd with repulsive positions, don't say, "Oh my god, I can never talk to him." No, writing him off can't talk to him. Talk to him and let him destroy

[1:00:57] himself with his repulsive positions. But this idea now, well, they have to cut off Tucker. He's no good anymore. And oh, the head of the Heritage Foundation said something nice about him, so now he has to resign. It's like, what's wrong with you people? Yeah, I think that part I think that part's crazy. I I do >> I would love to get your thoughts on this though because I look at this whole Tucker situation. It's very fascinating to me watching watching it happen because I think you're seeing a lot of laws of human

[1:01:28] nature play out. And >> what I mean by that is >> Tucker raised some points a year ago, year and a half ago, whatever that were valid points. >> Yes, sir. >> Apolitical in a lot of ways. We're talking foreign policy, things going on in the Middle East, asking >> Yes. >> very valid questions. >> And he's very wellinformed. >> He is wellinformed. And he got viciously attacked >> by people for it who sought to destroy him. Yes. And silence him. And one thing about Tucker is he's an emotional guy.

[1:01:59] Takes one to no one, you know. And so he reacts to those things and he fights fire with fire. And then the fire gets bigger and the fire gets bigger and the fire gets bigger and pretty soon, you know, you end up saying things just to set each other off. And I I think we've gone far past that point. I thought the attacks on him, calling him anti-Semitic were [ __ ] anti-semitic. See, but this is the thing. This is where that propaganda that you talked about a few minutes ago

[1:02:30] um enters in. It is that many Americans have been convinced that if you are anti-Netanyahu or if you are opposed to the present policies of the current Israeli government, you are anti-Semitic. In fact, a an Israeli friend of mine, a close Israeli friend of mine who served in the IDF and everything told me that they're actually taught to do that at school. That any criticism of Israel, they're supposed to label as anti-Semitic so that people back off and

[1:03:01] people generally do back off. >> So, I can criticize any government around the world, even China now. Remember when that was a thing? You were racist if you criticized China. Now, they love you criticizing China, right? Like you can criticize any country around the world and it's not racist when you criticize their government, >> but when you criticize this one, it's racist. >> Yes, >> that's wrong. And you know, here's the thing about Tucker and Fuentes because I I am a free speech absolutist, right? >> And I think everyone should be allowed to talk. I think Nick Fuentes,

[1:03:33] I wildly disagree with who he is as a person, everything. >> But he's got a right to say whatever he wants to say. >> Free speech. He has a right to say what he wants to say. >> 100% agree. >> The question here, John, >> is if people just look at it on just this situation. Don't look at the whole buildup to it, which is absolutely relevant, but just look at it in this situation with Tucker. >> People are looking at Tucker going, why are you using your platform to talk to a guy like that? And I want to be careful how I say this as someone who has a platform and talks to people from

[1:04:04] all ends of the spectrum. [sighs] I think that when you do something like that, when you're Tucker Carlson, you are doing it and giving your enemies exactly what they want. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. But on the other hand, too, look at this way. He does how many of these a week? Um, one, two, three, I don't even know. >> A lot, I'm sure. >> A lot. Um, this is just another one in a

[1:04:37] long line of guests. >> He's going to have somebody on that's going to be the exact opposite. [snorts] >> Uh, he's going to have on um the nun from uh Jerusalem, George Stephanopoulos's sister. [laughter] >> Is that actually his sister? >> You know, I actually Googled it and it said that she is. I don't know. I don't see any kind of family resemblance. And you know, funny little funny little small world tidbit. George Stephanopoulos's grandfather was my parish priest when I was a little kid and he baptized me and I remember George

[1:05:10] from Sunday school. He was a year two older than I was. Yeah. >> Yeah. Small world. >> Small world. Yeah. >> But uh and actually his dad married my brother and his first wife. >> Wow. >> Yeah. He was a priest here at the Holy Trinity Cathedral in New York. >> Oh, you Greeks. >> We all stick together. >> Yeah. We're all paria. We all enjoy each other's company. So anyway, um for me personally, I wouldn't have invited um Nick Fuentes just because I don't think I would have much to say to somebody

[1:05:40] like Nick Fuentes. But Tucker feels liberated since he left Fox News. He feels unencumbered by corporate structures and policies and he just decided that he was going to have on anybody who he thought would give him two or three hours of interesting conversation. Yeah. And I also because I'm also not a believer in bringing someone in there just to stick them through the ringer and you know CBS News, right? Which is why I wouldn't talk with them >> except for Ted Cruz.

[1:06:11] >> That was pretty funny. >> That was funny. >> That was kind of funny. Apac Ted. >> Yeah. Apac Ted. >> By the way, by the [laughter] way, trivia question. Who would who did Alan Dersitz say was the most talented law student he ever had? >> Oh, it has to be Ted. >> Yeah. I always thought that was interesting. You know, so many people believed that Ted was destined for the Supreme Court, not for Capitol Hill. >> He was a real thinker at Harvard Law School. >> Oh, he's a Listen, for as much as he got bodybagged and thrown down the [ __ ] river. See the river sticks by Tucker

[1:06:43] Carlson [snorts] right there? Like, >> he's a very smart guy. >> Very smart. >> Very smart guy. >> He was wrong on those issues, which is why Tucker beat him about the head and face. >> It was funny. Uh, who I'd like to see next is Lindsey Graham. [laughter] >> It will never happen. We'll see if he even survives this primary. >> Yeah, I I I hope not. I don't know how that guy's ever survived any election in that state. >> But like maybe people wanted to see and and I actually I haven't watched the Tucker Fuentes sit down yet, so I really

[1:07:14] can't comment on it. So I I don't want to. >> It was a normal Tucker interview. It was a normal conversation and Tucker fully freely disagreed with a lot of what he had to say. >> All right. So, >> but let him speak. >> Let him speak. The the thing that I think about here because of how hot button the issue is and how much there is pieces of information that can be used to label going on. Like let's look at who you might look at as as people that

[1:07:46] are cringe and annoying, which might be like the hardest core Zionists who anything that they don't like is labeled anti-Semitic, which is a woke tactic. It is >> for them to use. If I were those people, what would I want Tucker Carlson to do? >> I would want him to interview Nick Fuentes. because now all I got to do is post that screenshot of that regardless of context, regardless of intention, regardless of what it is. And it's like I read this thing recently. I was

[1:08:17] talking about it with Mike Ritland, but I recently read that in at the height of the Roman Empire's power when the generals would be at war in the midst of battle and the night before or the morning of a battle, they'd be gathered in their tent, you know, the three to five highest ranking generals to make a decision. They would have this exercise where they would ask themselves, if we were our worst enemy right now, meaning the guys across the battlefield who are going to fight us, if we were our worst enemy right now, what decision would we

[1:08:50] want us to make? >> That's brilliant. Yeah. >> And they would think of it. It would always land on like the most emotional [ __ ] you eye for an eye type decision. They'd be like, okay, let's do the opposite of that. >> And they won again and again and again and again. And it is so easy now to get angry at pe. It's human nature to get angry at people who attack you incessantly with lies and propaganda and [ __ ] You want to punch these people. I'm from New Jersey, trust me. Like I would not deal with it well. Yeah. >> But you got to like go into a room,

[1:09:20] scream into a pillow, >> and think, what am I going to do with this so that I can rise above it? Do I want to be more Malcolm X or do I want to be more Martin Luther King? All due respect to Malcolm X, obviously had certain stances and whatever. Very interesting guy in history. The more effective one was Martin Luther King and he deserves all the credit in the world for that because he rose above stuff at the in the hardest way >> as well. And it's like I get it. Everyone has a right to speak. I'm not

[1:09:51] saying don't go speak with Nick Fuentes or something like that, but when you do that, you have now opened yourself up to a whole new round of attacks that could have >> I agree >> appeared credibility. >> I agree. The reason why I wouldn't have had Nick Fuentes, well, it's severalfold. Um, and you know, a part of this is obviously my own bias. I see him as just some kid. He's just some loudmouth kid. Mhm. >> And many of his positions have been

[1:10:23] definitively debunked by historians over the years. I mean, there are still people alive who liberated Dahal, for example, >> or Bergen Bellson or whatever. And um [snorts] I just don't see how it's possible that his base of support grows from what it is. And what it is is a bunch of angry white guys in their 20s. So I I just don't see what good it would do me to interview somebody like him.

[1:10:54] That's why I wouldn't do it. >> He's if you look at the it at it objectively just like 30,000 foot view of why >> he's risen or whatever it is. >> Obviously he is a very good speaker. >> He is >> he's very bright. >> He's very bright for sure. He has a sense of humor as well. He can talk to the camera for hours. >> Disarming actually. >> Yes. >> That's the first time I ever saw him at any length in an interview and I was like, oh, he's he's actually a likable

[1:11:25] guy at first glance. >> At first glance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, there's ways like if you wanted to look at it like, oh, the wolf coming in the hen house or something. That's how it happens when you have those other talents. But when society gets to a point, this is just my macro theory on it, but >> you look at a middle class that has been legislated away economically like that in a graph since the beginning of the 1980s. >> That's right. >> And you see chaos and chaos and chaos and chaos and chaos and lack of hope and

[1:11:57] people who are upset about their lives. They're carrying around college debt cuz they were sold a system when they were 15 and had no [ __ ] idea what it meant. >> Mhm. You turn that emotion in somewhere and you turn it in to point it at the fingers of the elite people regardless of where they stand that you don't like. And when you have someone like Nick Fuentes who regardless of how he does it or what he says speaks to that kind of yes crowd and does it very effectively. That is how you get something like that to happen. And also this needs to be

[1:12:28] said because we've seen this on every side of all these issues whether you're pro or antie. Pick your favorite issue here. There are massive propaganda bot campaigns supporting both sides. >> You're absolutely right. >> Yes. Which is also dangerous and completely unregulated. >> What do we do about that? >> I don't know. Can you do anything about it? Like you can pass a law saying, you know, no more about no more bots. And the Chinese are going to laugh and laugh. The Russians. Yeah. I don't I

[1:12:58] don't know if there's anything you can do. I remember Elon was like looking at that when he was trying to buy Twitter. They were >> Yeah, he said it was like 40% of Twitter users were actually bots or something like that. >> I think it was >> I think it was like 60% it was a high percentage and I haven't heard him talk about it a ton. >> No, >> but it's [laughter] like I'm always clicking that on Twitter. That's the one where cuz like that's always just been my little private platform that no one >> I used to get most of my news from

[1:13:28] Twitter. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's interesting, but like when you just look at the following, I'll click someone and I'll just be like, "Huh, >> November 2025, you know, >> up to 64%." >> Yep. Deep's got it. Up to 64% of the accounts were bots. >> So, it's like you also have massive and I see it on both sides of the issue. You will see you will see Ayal Yakobi tweet something out pro Zionist and it's got [ __ ] 10,000

[1:13:58] likes in 10 minutes. You will see Ian Carol tweet out something. Ian's been on my show. Ian will tweet out something. It has 10,000 likes in 10 minutes. Neither of these make sense. Crazy. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense, >> right? And that's And by the way, that's neither of their fault, which everyone likes to try to say like, >> "Oh, you can prove that they're like running." They don't know. Yeah, I don't know these [ __ ] accounts that touch my >> I don't even manage my own Twitter account. I [laughter] I have a guy that does it for me. >> He called me last week. He said, "Hey, you crossed 100,000 subscribers." I

[1:14:30] said, "Hey, great." >> Is that Simon? >> Okay. Yeah, Simon. Simon doing that. Damn it. So, it's always Simon tweeting. I knew that already. [laughter] That's kind of funny. It's just >> when Simon sends his best regards. He called me in the car. He's a good guy. I like Simon. But like, you know, to your point bringing up like the whole thing. We now make these we make content like you know the NFL playoffs or something. Yeah. And like so and so talk to so and so and yeah I fall in the trap too sometimes. >> Oh man, when I was in prison people used

[1:15:00] to get this uh this magazine like Hip Hop Weekly or something like I think that's [snorts] what it was called. And I mean, it's clearly just a madeup tabloid, you know, with these fake feuds and somebody was in the club and they threw money in the face of somebody else because of something that happened in Atlanta. I got kind of a kick out of it, but it these articles sometimes led to bloodshed. I remember two guys beating each other to the death over who had

[1:15:33] more money, Kanye or Jay-Z. It's like, seriously, you guys are going to go to solitary for that? [laughter] There are no better reasons to go to solitary. That's what you chose. >> Oh my god. >> I mean, there's not a lot to do in prison. [laughter] >> No, >> I'll give them that. >> I saw a fist fight once over whether they should watch Love and Hip Hop Atlanta or 110th in Park or whatever the show was called.

[1:16:03] >> 120th in Park. Did you have to make your bones in a fist fight? >> No, >> you didn't. >> No. No. I minded my own business. I I made alliances with all the mafia. >> The racial groups. The mafia was the most important, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Who were you? I I I always forgot. Who Who did you have a moment of silence for outside the house in Atlantic City after you were in prison? >> Oh, it was uh >> Scarfo. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I was like, "Come on, guys. Come [laughter] on. stand here all day.

[1:16:35] >> You're like, I was in Pakistan 15 years ago taking down al-Qaeda [laughter] and now >> I'm I'm actually stopping in Philly on the way home. We're going to meet up for dinner. >> Oh, that's awesome. You going to Dante and Luigi's >> most likely. >> Oh my god, that's funny. [laughter] >> Can't your life, you can't make it up. That's >> See, I'm friends with everybody. >> That's right. >> Everybody. Everybody's got something redeeming. Everybody. >> Everyone does. >> Not everyone. >> Okay. I will say I'll tell you a story

[1:17:05] and I'm going to plug my latest book as part of the story. >> Plug away. >> So, I've got a book coming out called uh Remains of the Day, a definitive guide to Washington DC's historic cemeteries. Go to rarebirdlit.com rarebirdit.com uh for the advanced autograph copies. So, Simon and Schusters publishing it. They liked it so much they commissioned four more. I'm almost done with the next one, which is Whispers in the Dirt, a definitive guide to the Mafia Graves of

[1:17:35] New York City. >> Okay, so I'm about 70% done. It's going to I'll be done. I'll be done by the end of the year and send it to the editor. So, I'm in the Bronx about two months ago just taking pictures. I'm with my girlfriend. We're taking pictures of different graves so I can put them in the book. And this was supposed the first one was supposed to be a field guide. It was it was supposed to be eight inches by five inches so that you can stick it in your back pocket, but they liked it so much they made it a

[1:18:06] coffee table book. So, you're going to have to like lug it into the cemetery with you. Anyway, back in prison, I said to one of the mob guys, "So, you mind if I ask you, what are you in here for?" [laughter] And he goes like this. He goes, "They found a body in a barrel in my storage unit. I don't know how that body got in there. [laughter] 100 people had access to the storage unit." I said, "No, no, no judgment for me. I was just curious. No

[1:18:38] judgment." And I kind of laughed it off. So, I'm in the Bronx six weeks ago, whatever it is. No. And I'm like, who is this guy again? I had I had his name. I needed to take a picture of the grave. His name was Bonventry, the tall guy, right? He was like Jarro Bonventry. Janaro the tall guy. Bonventry. I forget his first name. So my girlfriend said, "Who is this guy again?" And I said, "You know, I can't remember. He was a driver, but I don't

[1:19:10] remember the story." So I pull up my manuscript and I said, "Uh, the tall guy Bonventry was a driver for this guy. Hey, he took the boss out for whatever. Um, the boss was killed. Bonventry was initially assumed to have been the hitman because they couldn't find him. They found his body 6 months later in a barrel in a storage unit in New Jersey. And I said, "Oh my god." It was the first time I put it together. It's the body from the barrel. But he didn't tell me the full story. The full story is the

[1:19:42] tall guy was too tall to fit in the barrel. [laughter] Look at the hack. a little bit. >> So he saw him in half. >> He saw him in half. >> That's what we do in Jersey, John. We saw in half >> and the barrel was full of glue. And it took the corner something like 4 months to get the glue off to do the autopsy, which he's already saw in half. So how much more of an autopsy do you need? >> But then they they [snorts] sort of pieced him together to put him in his coffin. And I was like, "Oh, dang. He

[1:20:13] was telling me the truth." >> Ah. Where is this? Is this guy still in prison? >> No, he's out. No, >> which is why I didn't use his name. >> Right. >> Where where in Jersey? >> Do you remember? >> Yeah. Uh yeah, the it was in Newark, but but he was not a New Jersey Italian. He was a New York Italian. >> Got it. So they brought him over here to >> Exactly. >> I have a chapter at the end of the book. I go cemetery by cemetery by cemetery

[1:20:44] and there are some like, you know, St. Stevens or Holy Cross or whatever that are just like overflowing with mob guys going back to, you know, Joe the Boss Maseria or the Clutch Hand or Lucky Luciano who's got a magnificent private mausoleum. >> Um, but I have a chapter at the end of the book on nontraditional burial grounds like the Gowanas Canal. >> Oh. >> Where they're pulling bodies out of all the time. Or there's this there's in the Bronx there's this vacant lot that they

[1:21:16] called the mafia graveyard. >> Yeah. >> Um >> I got one in the Meadowlands here. >> The Meadowlands is a great example. >> So I've got like four, five, six of those that I'm going to I'm going to add at the end. >> Okay. I'm in for that book right up my alley. >> I think it's going to be a good seller already. For the one in Washington, I just love cemeteries. And I've talked to you about this before. Uh, I think I I if the if it's sunny out, I'll just go hang out in a cemetery for hours. >> You love cemeteries. You love Abraham Lincoln [ __ ] Yeah.

[1:28:02] of the cemetery and um there's a traffic island there that has this magnificent private family mausoleum. So, I just wrote myself a note. It was the Butler family. And um and I went to look in the in the door of the mausoleum and the the tomb was glass inside. So you can see these very expensive bronze coffins >> that had the two Butler brothers, their wives, a daughter, and a grandson who

[1:28:33] was like six when he died. So I wrote myself this note, went to the Library of Congress. Turns out these guys were fascinating. They wanted to be chemists. They wanted to go to college and be chemists. They were born right after the Civil War ended. Butler was their name. And when they got to be, you know, high school age, almost high school age, their dad was like, "Yeah, you're not going to be chemists. You're going to be bakers."

[1:29:04] >> Bakers. >> Bakers. Yeah. We don't have money to send you to college to be fancy chemists. you're going to be bakers. And he arranged for them an a uh an apprenticeship at a local bakery. They hated it. So when the baker finally retired, he turned over the business to them. They just hated [snorts] they hated every act of being a baker. So they said to each other, "What if we invent this machine that will mix all this [ __ ] for us so we

[1:29:35] don't have to do it?" >> Oh [ __ ] So you power it with your feet like the old time sewing machines. >> So they invented the first mixer and they patented it and they were able to sell it all the way out to the frontier which at the time was Cincinnati. So they start making some making some money thanks to this new fangled mixing machine, right? And then they said, "What if we invent another machine that

[1:30:05] cuts the dough so that every loaf is exactly the same size, shape, and weight?" And they made a conveyor belt with a an arm that came down and cut the dough. Revolutionized baking nationwide. They were able to sell that all the way out to like, you know, St. Louis and then later on to uh to Denver. And then they said,"What if we instead of using water to make the bread, what if we use milk? What would that taste

[1:30:35] like?" It made it very fluffy and light. Then they came up with this idea. Newspapers were becoming popular. And there were young boys that would actually deliver your newspaper to your house called a paper boy, right? And they said, "What if we hire boys to deliver bread to the houses? if you make an order by three o'clock, we'll deliver the bread so you can have it on your dinner table while it's still warm. >> And then they started making cakes and making pies and this and that.

[1:31:05] >> By the turn of the 20th century, they owned the entire city block behind what is today Union Station, train station, and they were millionaires many times over. Israel Butler, the older of the two brothers, decided to retire like right around the start of the First World War. His brother stayed on for another couple of years, but they finally sold the business to the National Biscuit Company, Nabiscoco.

[1:31:36] And um the only thing that they changed the the bread itself was very very popular, but it had this terrible name. I forget the name. It was like Mrs. McGillicuy's delicious bread. That's not it, but it was something like that. So they um they sold it to Nabiscoco and um the only change that Nabiscoco made was they changed the name of the bread to Wonderbread and everything remained the same. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Like who ever heard of these people? >> Never in my life. >> I found the NFL's first black

[1:32:06] quarterback. Like you wouldn't even know that there was a black quarterback in the 50s. >> In the 50s. Wow. >> Mhm. He only threw like four passes, but still, why aren't we celebrating this guy? >> NFL. Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> How often do you go to cemeteries? >> At least weekly. If I'm overseas, I go almost every day. >> So, you like to The overseas cemeteries are actually interesting because they're always so different. >> So, completely different. I have this

[1:32:38] wonderful book I bought at at some obscure flea market or used bookstore. It's called Death Rituals of Rural Greece. >> So there are almost no cemeteries in Greece because the the country is only like 2% arable. And so the the land that's good, they need to grow food on it. So there's this practice, it's been a practice for hundreds of years that you rent a grave for 5 years. So they don't embalm in

[1:33:11] Greece. They'll put you in the in the ground for 5 years and then on the fifth anniversary of your burial, they dig you, the women of the village dig you up with the priest, the village priest, and then they take your by then you're just a skeleton. If you're not just a skeleton by then, that means you went to hell. >> Oh, >> and so they put you right back. >> I thought you were going to say it means you were buried alive. I was like, "Oh, shit." >> No, it means it means you you went to hell. So, um, but just about everybody

[1:33:43] is is just bone by then. So they take the skeleton apart, they wash it with red wine, the priest blesses it, and they put it in a little bone box, and then in an ouary, a bone house just on here, I'll show you a picture. Um just uh on on shelves until um until it's time to build a new church. And then they take all the bones out and they put them underneath the

[1:34:13] church under the foundation because >> can't we just cremate at that point? >> No, cremation's forbidden. Strictly forbidden. [clears throat] You can't cremate because >> you put the bones in a box, but you can't cremate. >> I know, right? >> You know, these these rules that humans invent >> and you know what's funny is none of these rules are actually based in religion. >> No, it's it's some guy one day had a bright idea and said, "This is what we're going to do now as a religion." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's pretty much it. >> Is that's real? Oh my god. >> Oh, yeah. There you go.

[1:34:43] >> De's got it up. Can we blow up one of those pictures? Whatever one you want, De. >> The one Oh. >> Oh, so they put like the skull. >> The top top left is is more accurate. The one with the skulls is in Italy. That's an ashuary in Greece. >> That's so >> And you know, I've I've struck up a friendship with the guy. There's this um well the nice way of saying it these days is he's on the spectrum but >> he's an artist. >> He's he's not able to care for himself

[1:35:14] >> and so they gave him as a job just take care of the bone house. Right. So I go over there every time I go back to my ancestral island. I go to the village where my family's from and um and he lets me go through the the boxes and see if they're my grandparents, my great-grandparents or whatever. >> You opening them up? >> No, I mean if it's somebody that I know or I'm related to, I take a picture of the box and then I'll open it up just to, you know, give them a kiss on the skull or something. >> Oh god. All right. >> It's my great-grandparents.

[1:35:45] >> All right. All right. >> So So uh >> just cut it cut it. You see the floor? >> You see the floor there? at the ocuary in our village. There's a kind of a trap door and there's an area underneath the floor. So, he let me go down there last time. And uh it goes back to the 19th century down there, but I mean, I can't go any further than that. The Turks burned all of our records, >> so we don't know really anything about where we come from. >> And then, you know, people are buried

[1:36:17] under churches. I did I did find one relative. This is my great greatgrandfather's brother um that I found in an oushuary in roads on the southern tip of the island. Come on. Where is he? He was a priest and so they kept him. They didn't they didn't bury him under the uh there he is. Oh, >> the perks of being a priest in this life, huh? >> Yeah. Um and then the next picture is a picture of him. [sighs and gasps]

[1:36:48] So, you can he get lucky sometimes. Oh yeah. Yeah. High priest kind of guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was a he was a big deal. Yeah. I said to >> looks like you. >> Yeah. I said to my cousin who who also has an interest in our family genealogy. Um I said, "Yeah, you know, my grandmother told me he was uh eaten by a shark. He was diving for sponges and he was eaten by a shark." >> No. >> My cousin said that's not true. >> I said, "Oh, that's always the story we heard." He said the Turks executed him because he was teaching children how to speak Greek during the Ottoman

[1:37:20] occupation and they threw his body in the sea and the sharks ate him. But he said the Turks murdered him, >> which gives me just another reason to hate Turks. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> The Ottoman Empire is one that's overlooked. >> And people are like, "Oh, no. It was okay in the Ottomans because if you just paid your taxes, you could freely practice Christianity. [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> What country are you from where they were so kind to you that if you paid your taxes, you could do your thing.

[1:37:51] [snorts] What a joke. [laughter] >> You're funny. You're just funny like how you you get so upset and then you go back to laughing right afterwards. It's great. Well, I don't know how we got on that tangent about skulls and cemeteries. >> It was my book. My book. >> It was very, very interesting. >> The tall guy. >> But, you know, back to the to the world of the living, at least for now. >> Yeah. >> You know, in in some of our earlier conversations, we were talking about the different countries of nuclear weapons

[1:38:21] and obviously the the bombing that happened of Iran's facilities >> in June and everything, but what you know, >> may I add one other thing about that, >> please? Yeah. So, this is something that most Americans don't understand or haven't thought about and which most Israelis just deny because it doesn't fit into their worldview. But these Israeli attacks on Iran have now forced the Iranians to develop a nuclear weapon. >> Um, they had no u uranium that was that

[1:38:53] was weapons ready or weapons capable. And besides that, they don't have a delivery system. I would bet my next paycheck that that's what they're going to start developing now. Because if all they have to look forward to is continued Israeli bombing and assassination and infiltration, you know, the threat is existential for them, too. And so they're going to have to do something to defend themselves. And the only thing that they can do at this point is to develop a nuclear deterrent. >> No. Why did you say earlier, cuz we got

[1:39:25] off this, that in hindsight then you think that that when the US ended up bombing this was okay? >> Because I think that the Israelis really would have used a nuclear weapon. >> That's the >> that's that's where the word existential comes from. >> Meaning, you don't think that was just like a threat and [clears throat] position? >> I think that they really intended to do it. >> Okay. So, this is something I've been thinking about a lot more recently, and I hate that I have to think about it, but I

[1:39:55] used to have this picture in my first studio at my parents house. There were two pictures on one of the walls. The top picture was of the nuclear bomb test at Bikini Toll. Oh, yeah. In >> a famous one, >> 47. Yeah, something like that. >> Something like that. >> And the one below it was the picture of Adam and the hand of God, but instead of the hand of God, it was a robot. And the idea is it was like a juosition in my head of like >> the ability we invented to wipe ourselves out as a species at the time

[1:40:26] you know 80 years ago whatever >> versus the ability that's coming now where you know with AI and we don't know what it could be if that is another threat we build for ourselves that that that could wipe us out. And part of it was I was looking at AI as like maybe we can be hopeful here because for all the problems in the world, people have been prudent enough even in the worst of situations for 75 80 years to not hit that red button with a nuke and we all have this mutual destruction kind of

[1:40:57] thing going on because so many countries have them. I will admit that over the past couple years, I've thought more and more and more about just how tenuous that might be and how realistic I hate even saying this, but how realistic it could be that at some point somewhere in the notsodistant future somebody uses a nuclear bomb. So, two questions. One, >> how realistic is that? And two,

[1:41:28] if that does happen, and I guess it would depend on where as well, what is the aftermath of that look like, >> right? I think it's something that we do have to fear. I could see the Israelis using one on Iran. I could see the Indians and Pakistanis using them against each other. Um, what does the aftermath look like? I I suppose it depends. You know, we talk about tactical nuclear weapons, battlefield, battlefield nuclear weapons

[1:41:59] that supposedly, you know, aren't going to have the catastrophic fallout that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had or that a modern full-sized nuclear weapon would have, but I'm not sure that it really matters. Um, you know, if if we were having this conversation right after the Second World War, I'd say, "Wow, the world has learned its lesson. It's going to be mutually assured destruction. This is going to be a policy that's adopted by every country. Then we negotiated the

[1:42:30] nuclear non-prololiferation treaty." Those days are gone. You know, you got the North Koreans, the Indians, the Pakistanis, now maybe the Iranians, the Israelis. Do you trust any of those countries? Not really. None of them. So, I'm not sure what the aftermath would be. I suppose I suppose if the Indians and the Pakistanis went at it, they'd lob one on each other and that would be the end of it, right? >> What do you think the world would do in

[1:43:01] the aftermath of that? >> What could the world do? We're going to run to the United Nations and issue a very strongly worded statement. And that's really what it comes down to. That's it. >> And what are you going to do? Overthrow a government? Attack a government because it's used a nuclear a nuclear weapon. What if it has more nuclear weapons? And then they use it against you or against your troops as they're landing or >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. >> I guess size of country obviously matters a lot too. So like if North Korea used one, all due respect,

[1:43:33] >> you know, which is a concern. >> Mhm. >> I mean, they're gone. >> I would I would think so. Yeah. And that like that's the one saving grace I think of in my head. I'm like if someone tried to do it to us, >> we'd have to respond. >> You're done. Like like if they did one here, which would be catastrophic to be very clear. >> They're gone. >> Yeah. I can't help but to think that if if we were to be attacked with nuclear weapons, we would have to respond using

[1:44:03] nuclear weapons. Terrible, terrible thing. But you have to respond. And I agree with you. If it were to be the North Koreans, tomorrow North Korea wouldn't exist, >> right? Which is a, you know, >> Yeah. >> It's impossible to fathom something like that. And, you know, >> World War II, people relitigate that all the time. And I understand that. >> Sure. >> I do. Certainly. >> I mean, that's that's a that's a crazy

[1:44:33] thing that had to happen. It hasn't happened since, you know, and and that's why like when you know, you have Israel threatening to use nuclear weapons, like, you know, they're a powerful country, but they're the size of New Jersey. >> Mhm. >> Like, how I I don't understand why they'd be so careless as to do that because it doesn't take much for them to be gone. >> No. >> You know, like what what is the what is the thought process there? And like now you even have insult to injury. You got

[1:45:05] like Jonathan Pard running for Knesset. >> Yeah. How do you like that? >> On a on a platform of we should be able to use nukes. Like are you [ __ ] >> Which was another issue that every single Israeli prime minister lobbyed for with every president. You got to release Pard. You got to release Pard. No, he's doing every day of the 30 years. And he did every single day. >> But then we let him go back or not back. We let him go there. >> And they gave him a parade and a hero's welcome and an Israeli passport and now

[1:45:36] he's running for the Knesset. >> Does that just like piss you off to no end? >> Yeah, very much so. I was having lunch with a guy, nice guy a few weeks ago who was like asking me about different things on this issue. [laughter] And at one point he said he said, "Well, doesn't MSAD have a have a policy that they don't spy on Americans?" And we were in Cypriani and I, you know, that's a very tightly

[1:46:06] packed place. >> And I just like I was very hung over, but I literally like fell off my chair laughing. Other people were looking at me and I'm like, "Yeah, no. They totally have that policy." And he's like, he's like, "Yeah, no. They they don't do." I'm like, "Are you [ __ ] kidding me? They're like the number one threat of spying." He's like, "Name one." And I'm like, "John." And he's he wasn't even MSAD. He was military intelligence. It was like below MSAD. >> Yes. Very much below MSD. >> What the [ __ ] You know, and he was handled by what's his name? The dude who did the Ikeman drop. >> Oh my god. I didn't know that.

[1:46:37] >> And yo, yeah. Yeah. What the [ __ ] is that guy's name again? >> Oh my god. Uh, Rafi Rafi Ravi Itan. Rafi Eton. >> Yes, >> I think that I think is his name. That was like his hand. That was Pard's handler who was, you know, a longtime >> massage guy and everything. But I'm like >> I was like, "All right, so that was right." >> Oh my god. >> I'm like, "Dude, you know what? One of the most compelling things you'll ever see is [laughter] when when you and Boo Damonte were on Danny Jones together and

[1:47:09] you were talking about that you two are from different eras at CIA and you both had the same experience of one of the first days once you're in there and have your job, whatever it may be, they take you to a room. You're not allowed to say what it's called, but call it the red room. They're like, "Here are the number one espionage threats." And it's like Israel, China, and Russia. Mhm. >> That's wild. You know, >> it's wild. And you can add Cuba and France. >> I've heard I've heard France goes crazy. >> You know, the French, we had we had a little kurfuffle in the early

[1:47:41] 90s with the French. >> Oh, yeah. >> And they were very angry with us >> about what? >> Deservedly so. One of our young junior first tour guys got caught just going pushing a little too far. So they expelled him and they expelled the chief and they expelled a whole bunch of people. And so for three, four years we had a tough time. But the French were just such dicks about it that we ended up um getting orders that we weren't even allowed to transit de Gaul airport.

[1:48:11] And that was the only reason I was ever in France was just to catch a connecting flight at De Gaul to go here, there, wherever in the Middle East. Uh but a buddy of mine was I I forget where he was going. somewhere in the Middle East and he he went no it was in Africa. He was going to Africa and the only way to get to Africa was through Paris at the time. Now you can just go directly to uh Morocco and then onward from there. But they took his laptop. He had a he had a secure laptop. So they're like turn it

[1:48:42] on. So he turns it on. Open it up. He's like I'm not going to open it up. I have a diplomatic passport. I'm on the diplomatic business of the United States. this is the the possess the uh the property rather of the US Department of State. I'm not opening it up. So they took it in a back room. He said they had a railroad spike fastened to a table and they just slammed it down on the railroad spike went all the way through the laptop and then they pulled it off and gave him his laptop back. So headquarters was like, "Okay, nobody can transit air uh de Gaul airport anymore." >> Wow.

[1:49:13] >> Yeah. They're just jerks about it. >> I've heard that they are incredibly [clears throat] talented in >> They're very talented. When I was overseas in uh Pakistan, my boss asked me if I would uh meet with a French intelligence officer. I said, "Sure." I was meeting with foreign intelligence officers almost every day and you just trade, you know, hey, I heard there's a safe house over here. I heard, "Hey, we they give me al-Qaeda safe house over there." And we just trade some information. So, uh, this French guy calls me and he says,

[1:49:43] "Meet me at the corner of, you know, A and B." I'm like, "Okay, you don't just want to meet at a restaurant or something?" "No, no, meet me at this corner." So, I go to this corner. It's in a residential neighborhood. I'm like, "What? Does he live here? Like, why would he want me to come here?" And I'm standing on the corner and he comes peeling down the street, makes a quick right, reaches over and opens my door, and he's like, "Get in." And I said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no." >> [laughter] >> I said, "I don't work for you and you're

[1:50:14] not using tradecraft on me." I said, "I parked right over here. I'll meet you at the Pearl Hotel restaurant coffee bar. Not going to [ __ ] let you do a there's a term of art for the for the kind that kind of a pickup." No, no, no, no. You're not recruiting me. >> Yeah. We're going to have a cup of coffee and that's it. And then I never saw him again after the coffee. >> So, they're tough. >> Yeah. And they're murderous, too. You know, they're murderous. >> Oh, yeah. If you're a member of, for

[1:50:44] example, of Greenpeace, they're going to blow your brains out if you try to, you know, take over a ship or throw paint on a ship or whatever. They kill a lot of Greenpeace activists. >> The French intelligence stuff does. >> Yeah. >> Like not the paramilitary. >> No, no, no, no, no. They're happy to go out and kill people. And that's why that's one of the reasons why we're not we don't have more of a presence in the Sahel right now in Africa >> because it's all French. They were all French colonies and the French are there just killing all kinds of al-Qaeda people. Yeah, sure.

[1:51:15] >> Oh, so they're killing al-Qaeda people. >> Yeah, that's fine. I have no problem. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> So they're like the French headqu's nice. I mentioned in a podcast the other day that um [clears throat] I was giving a series of speeches all around the UK at the beginning of the year and um I had five speeches with my conversant being a a professor of English literature. I had five speeches with a uh kind of a belist

[1:51:47] actor and then five speeches with a retired MI6 officer. And um one of the things he said unprompted by me was um you know we we really loved working with you guys until 9/11. And they said you all became serial killers after 9/11. And I said, "Yeah, unfortunately that's true. A lot of guys just went out to just kill as many al-Qaeda people as they could find.

[1:52:18] Nobody was charged with a crime or I mean none of the al-Qaeda people were ever charged with a crime. They were just taken care of. And then he says, "Yeah, you and the French, my god, the French love killing people." And I said, "That was that was kind of my understanding as well. [snorts] >> It can it it obviously is a slippery slope because then you start cuz remember you're the good guy, >> right? >> And you're thinking, I'm the good guy, God and country. I'm going to protect my country from the terrible Muslim terrorists. And you go blowing brains

[1:52:50] out and here you end up killing women and children and taking out the whole village. And >> that's the problem. Like I like >> as a taxpaying citizen that pays into these organizations, I >> will admit I wouldn't have a problem with, >> you know, very tactical strike killings of very well >> clear and present danger. >> Yes, >> is the criterion. But when you're blowing up a [ __ ] wedding cuz maybe two people are there, that's where I go. >> Or because there's a tall guy wearing white and then you blow up the funeral.

[1:53:22] >> Yeah. >> The next day just to make sure you got everybody. >> See, that's that's what I'm saying. It human nature >> every time. Doesn't matter who you are. Leads to strange slippery slopes. >> You hindsight 2020 at every time. >> That's right. >> And people die. And then you create propaganda. Then you become the bad guy. And then there's situations where >> there it is. >> Yeah. >> Right there. >> You now you were in trying to remember your exact timeline because you were working at Langley. You

[1:53:53] were the the chief historian for Saddam Hussein leading into leading into my first my first assignment. Yeah. In the director of intelligence. >> And then you were still there for a few years. And then what year again did you hit the farm? Oh, I didn't go to the farm until 1997. >> Okay, that's what I was going to say. >> I was halfway through my career. >> And they did they send you to Greece first? >> Yes. >> Okay. When did you get to Greece in 97 as well? >> 98. >> Mhm. >> Okay. All right. So, that kind of takes

[1:54:23] away the cuz what I'm what I'm interested in is like the French intelligence is You're not the first guy to say that. Like so many people are like, "Yo, look out for them. They're [ __ ] good." But like first question, how well do they get along with MI6? There's always been a strange rivalry between France and England. How well did those intelligence >> It extends it extends to the uh to the organizations themselves. Um everybody knows by now what the five eyes countries are. US, UK, Canada,

[1:54:54] Australia, New Zealand. >> We have given each other literally cart blanch to do anything, to see anything, to go anywhere. We don't spy on each other. We literally had people sitting next to us from other intelligence services, foreign intelligence services from those countries. So, that's a very special relationship and it's even more important at some place like NSA than it is at CIA or FBI. Um, but there are no

[1:55:24] other countries like that. You know, the French France is a NATO country. It's in the European Union. There's close cooperation. We're good friends, but we don't give them everything like we do with the Five Eyes. >> So, you weren't on the ground in Europe till 98. >> Correct. >> But when you look at an event like Princess Diana's death in on August 31st, 1997. It happened in Paris. It happened in France. >> Is there any way the French intelligence

[1:55:56] doesn't know what happened there? I'm not saying they did it. I'm just saying like, do they they got to know? I would say they probably do. >> Yeah. >> What do you think happened there? >> You know, I really I really believe it was a series of of fuckups. >> The driver was drunk, being chased by the paparazzi. The paparazzi were overly aggressive. One thing led to the other. I don't remember if she was wearing a seat belt or not. She had a crushed chest. I think she wasn't. >> Um, yeah. I think it was just a one mistake

[1:56:28] after another. It's possible, >> but I don't think the royal family assassinated her. >> I agree. >> Yeah. I just I never saw [snorts] the >> I I never saw that either. And also like I I don't I don't think Prince now King Charles is that good of an actor. Like I mean, you know, that was very >> No way. >> When you look at that, >> obviously they had their differences for sure, but as a mother of his kids and everything and there was definitely >> Mhm. some human [ __ ] going on there.

[1:57:00] >> I think so, too. >> Believe it or not, I know it's very easy to like dehumanize the royal family just because, you know, [ __ ] royal family, but >> they are humans. So, >> yeah, they are. >> But what's the, you know, we're talking about nuclear war. If you mentioned the Indian Pakistan example where maybe that would just be isolated which you know be for the best for everyone else but if there was something where it wasn't something like that and the US got involved what is the protocol in a

[1:57:30] situation like that? We all see the guy with the football carrying around the nuclear codes with with the president. Obviously the president has the say he makes the decision and then it's done. But is this something that that happens in 60 seconds if it needs to? Yeah, it is. It's this is a much easier uh question to answer if [snorts] if you're asking about a situation in which the United States is not directly involved. >> So, yeah, we've got underground facilities like there's one um called Mount Weather that is uh that's on the

[1:58:02] Virginia West Virginia line. There's another one in Colorado where the president, the vice president, their families, the cabinet, congressional leadership, their families can be whisked away. Uh, everybody else, it's every man for himself >> for the rest of us. Yeah. >> Yeah. I live three miles from the White House, so I I don't think I'm going to make it out. What are you going to do? >> You won't feel anything. >> No. No. It'll be fast. um if there's a

[1:58:34] threat to the United States like we believed there could be on 9/11. >> Yeah. They'll implement that plan where the nuclear football goes with the president just in case we have to launch something. The codes are in there and uh and he can launch from Mount Weather or from Colorado wherever he happens to be. Air Force One just flying in circles someplace. The thing that I wonder in the event of like mass nuclear strikes around the

[1:59:05] world happening is if the story of society completely breaks down and none of this stuff happens. Meaning >> right >> it starts and there's such chaos that people are like there is no president including the people around him I'm like [ __ ] you. Who are you? >> You have to expect that that would be a real possibility. >> Yeah I I would think so. I mean, look, we've all we've all seen these post-apocalyptic movies or read the books. What was the uh the Irish uh the the long road? The

[1:59:37] something road. The road. That's what it was called. The road. Yeah. There's been a nuclear conflict. It's every man for himself. And it's just a story of this man and his son just walking down this road. You don't know where it goes, where they came from. Is that what it is the roadmak. >> Cormarmac McCarthy. That's right. Um, they stumble on an underground bunker and they find a bunch of canned soup >> and then the dad dies and then the kid just keeps walking. That's how the book ends. >> Huh. >> Yeah.

[2:00:07] >> Very Irish. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like the good guy always loses and the moral of the story is there's no hope for anybody. [laughter] >> We got a pub right down the street if you want. >> There you go. >> Want to go live that out? >> Yeah. I I I I hate that, like I said earlier, I hate that we even have to think about that. >> Yeah. >> But it [clears throat] does feel like, you know, you look at these different conflicts around the world, including the ones people don't talk about, by the way. >> Do you ever see the episode of the original Star Trek where No. Where Kirk

[2:00:40] and Spock, they beam down to this planet and this planet, the planet's leaders are yelling because the next door planet, they're having a war with them. And there's this announcement that everybody in group A has to go to the incinerator, right? So, you go to the incinerator and you get incinerated. And Kirk is like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" And they said, "Oh, we came up with this uh treaty with the next door planet that since we hate each other,

[2:01:11] we're always fighting wars. There's no sense in blowing up all the buildings." So we have computer models that tell us how many people would have died if we launch you know XYZ uh weapon and so then we just summon that number of people to the incinerator and then they get incinerated so at least we don't mess up our our our planets and he's like no that's not a good idea [laughter] you have to negotiate peace and then he of course he ends up negotiating peace

[2:01:42] but it's like we're headed there this This is all predicted in 1968. >> Yeah. Art following life following art. >> Something I think about a lot. [laughter] It does h it's just human nature like that imagination comes from something that's based in reality of how we think. >> Yes. >> You know. >> Exactly. Right. >> I was talking with someone recently. I I think it was Mike Rland about like seeing the Nolan Batman series recently. I hadn't watched it in years. >> But the things that Christopher Nolan in

[2:02:13] a [ __ ] superhero series, it's like supposed to be very fake and not of this world. >> The the pulse that he had his finger on >> with society. Think about the years he filmed those movies, 04, 07, and 2011. They came out in '05, '08, and 2012. the themes, elites versus the everyman, social chaos, people out for themselves, Gotham falling, falling from the inside. >> Tell me that you've seen Soilent Green. >> Soilent Green. No,

[2:02:43] >> Soilent Green is People. >> Soilent Green is People. So, Soilent Green >> came out in the early 1970s. It's one of the great >> science fiction films of all time. >> Um, stars Charlton H. Oh, I love Charlton. >> He's a cop in the megalopouloolis. We've had such a an explosion in population that from Boston to DC, it's just all one giant city. It's just all connected. So, he's a cop in what used to be called Philadelphia.

[2:03:15] And eggs are 100 bucks a piece. A jar of jelly is 150 bucks. There's one tree left in New York City and they had to build a fort around it so it could be protected. It was the only tree that's left on the east coast. And um like I say, he's a cop and he lives with this old man who uh was a professor. So nobody can afford to eat. So the government provides these little nutritional chips. There's Soylent

[2:03:46] Green, which is colored green, soilent red, soilent yellow, and it's like a $1.98 a pound. So that's what everybody eats, what everybody lives lives on. In the meantime, they're are such huge riots of hungry people that they have these big earth movers that just go scoop people up during demonstrations and it it throws them into the back of a dump truck and then they just disappear. You don't know what happened to them. So Charlton H um he's barely able to make a living at

[2:04:18] least you know he's got soil and green he can eat and the professor decides he's 70 years old he's sick they have these suicide centers that you can just go >> you lay in a bed and um they show you a film of just nature deer running around and butterflies and birds tweeting. You've never seen anything like this before. So, as they give you the lethal injection, that's what you get to see. And there's classical music playing, so it's all very nice. [snorts] He runs to the Charlton Aston runs to the suicide

[2:04:50] center to stop his friend from committing suicide. And he has to break into the place. He's too late to save him, but he follows the trail that they've taken the body to. And they take the body to a processing center where they're making Soilent green out of all these people that are scooping up at the demonstrations. And he's as they're arresting him and beating him, he shouts, "Soilent green is people." >> Oh my god.

[2:05:20] >> We used to do this thing at the CIA. We used to do this thing at the CIA just for fun. Like every every time you have an operational meeting, you have to write a very detailed like blowby-blow, minute-by-minute account of the meeting. And CIA cables by nature are written only in capital letters. It's like some thing from the 50s. They just never changed it. [snorts] So what people would do was they would make these random lowercase letters, >> but they did it so it would spell out soilent green as people in the cable. We

[2:05:50] would always get such a kick out of it because it was all it would always make its way through the system. Nobody would pay any attention until like the one guy is reading it and he's like, "Oh, they did it again." [laughter] That the scary part about that is >> I'm going to look for >> it reminds me of it. That kind of story >> doesn't seem far it seems farfetched for tomorrow, but it doesn't seem far-fetched for somewhere in the future. Well, this um Soilent Green, it's 1973.

[2:06:24] I said 72. It's 73. >> Lot of '7s was unbelievable. >> It is on Amazon Prime right now for 3.99. >> Okay, I'm definitely watching that. >> Don't miss it. It's one of the great one of the greatest science fiction movies. >> I can't believe I haven't seen that. >> I'm surprised. >> I've watched a lot. >> He did another one at the same time called The Omega Man >> where he was the last man on Earth. there was some kind of pandemic and a handful of people survived but as like monsters >> like uh Walking Dead kind of people

[2:06:55] >> like I am Legend almost. >> In fact, I am Legend was the reboot of uh the Omega Man. Yes. Yes. Exactly. >> Yeah. Awesome. Love Charl him once on the street in London. [laughter] >> Couldn't have been nicer. Is there anyone you [laughter] don't know or you haven't bumped into at some point? >> I was with my girlfriend. We were spending junior year abroad and uh and I took her to see a play called The Cane Mutiny Court Marshall and it starred

[2:07:26] Charlton H. And he was brilliant in this play. And she says, "Let's go around to the stage door and see if we can meet him." I said, "No, that's it's such a cliche. No, I don't want to bother the man and he's not going to want to be bothered after working for two hours on stage like that." She's like, "Please, I love Charlton." So we ran around back and it was I don't know half a dozen other people back there and he came out and could not have been any nicer, more cordial, just a a lovely guy. >> [ __ ] Moses right there. >> I know, right? That's Moses. And that

[2:07:57] voice like who in America doesn't know that voice? >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Pretty cool. >> Yeah. Again, can't believe I I have watched a [ __ ] ton of movies from the 70s. The '7s was an unbs and the '9s for movies. >> Oh, yes. My kids even got me a a coffee table book called called The Stewartist is Flying the Plane: Movies of the 1970s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's loved it. >> It's It's awesome stuff. Real quick, John, I just got to use the bathroom, >> of course. >> So, we'll be right back.

[2:08:28] >> All right, we're back. I haven't gotten your thoughts on your very good friend John Brennan now being in the crosshairs of >> He is that's the way to say it. He's in the crosshairs of the Trump Justice Department. A couple things I've noticed about John Brennan over the last couple of weeks. So, he was challenged at George Mason University in Arlington, Virginia by a Republican congressional candidate who I had never heard of and who didn't come close to winning anything. But the guy legitimately

[2:09:00] challenged him over, you know, his role in the memo on a couple things. The the memo on the Hunter Biden laptop or the letter, I guess it is, and um and on the CIA's analysis that Russia was behind >> the Trump election. In the video that was shared widely on Twitter, Brennan actually pokes the guy in the chest several times. Besides that being

[2:09:30] assault, [laughter] that was the first time in the 35 years that I've known John Brennan that I ever saw him lose his composure >> ever. >> It's getting to him. >> It's getting to him. He went on MSNBC that night looking exhausted and old beyond his ears and he disingenuously said, "I don't know why they're doing this to me. I don't understand. I didn't do anything

[2:10:01] wrong." I mean, even by MSNBC standards, it was not believable or credible. And then just a few days later, somebody some reporter shouted a question at him. It wasn't a reporter. It was in the metro. It was a guy who may have been a reporter now in retrospect. Anyway, whoever it was, it was a guy in the metro. And Brennan like went after him, went up to him with his with his finger and raised voice. A buddy of mine called who's an attorney and said, "What do you

[2:10:33] make of, you know, the John Brennan of the last couple of weeks?" And I said, "He's scared." Yeah, >> that's what this is. He's scared because they're going to find something to charge him with. And not only will they charge him, they have moved the case to the Southern District of Florida. Now, remember, you have to charge the case in the federal district where the crime was allegedly committed.

[2:11:04] But what they did, I'll give you an example. In the case of Jeffrey Sterling, the CIA whistleblower, um, they said that he had leaked classified information to James Ryzen of the New York Times. Ryzen then wrote a book. A CIA secretary bought the book in Virginia, so charged him in Virginia. Well, Jeffrey lived in St. Louis. Ryzen worked in Bethesda, Maryland, and the New York Times is in New York. They charged in Virginia. So, they play these

[2:11:36] little games all the time, >> right? >> Well, guess what? The game can be flipped. And so, the US attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, whom Trump just fired recently, said, "Oh, I I'm not seeing a crime. I'm not seeing [clears throat] a case. The the investigation's not going anywhere. We're going to drop it." Okay, you're fired and we're transferring the case to Florida because all you have to do is say, "Yeah, John Brennan coordinated that Hunter Biden laptop memo. I was in Miami when I read the

[2:12:07] memo on the MSNBC website." So, it's that easy. >> It's that easy. But they never think about it coming back and biting them in the ass. >> And that's that's the thing, John. Like, I think it's well documented long before I ever knew you. like looking at John Brennan's career and the kinds of things he did to say nothing of the stuff that you've illuminated for many of us since then there there's no doubt in my mind that he's not a good guy and that he has

[2:12:38] done a lot of things that could absolutely be taken into court and have a case made against it and the >> anger at some of the things that he's done of course makes me want that to happen. Mhm. >> What I worry about is all the cases that I think I righteously criticized that they were using with lawfare to make against Trump and people around him for years there strictly because they didn't like him.

[2:13:08] >> I now have to be consistent in my criticism of the lawfare because it feels like we have now >> the pendulum is swinging. >> The pendulum is swung and we are setting dangerous precedents of political retribution. So much so that you have guys like Steve Bannon Yeah. >> coming out and saying to people, if we don't win in 2028, people in this room are going to prison. And this is the same guy who's trying to go on there and talk about doing a third term for Trump, which is like against the whole [ __ ] constitution. >> Can't do it.

[2:13:38] I want to I want to read to you just a couple of sentences from former attorney general of the United States and associate justice of the Supreme Court, Robert Jackson. >> He said something that was very famous. >> Um he was also one of the judges at the Nuremberg trials. This is like one of the most important judges we've ever had, >> ever. Um, actually, let me find it. But

[2:14:11] he said something in um in a dinner at a dinner event for attorneys. His speech was called the federal prosecutor. And I think I found it. He said a couple things in this speech. He said it is not the function of government to keep the citizen from falling to error. >> It is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling to

[2:14:41] error. >> This and to me this is the most important thing he said. With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation of some act on the part of almost anyone. >> Yes. In such a case, it is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and then looking for the man who has committed it. It's a question of picking the man and then searching the law books or putting investigators to work to pin some offense on him. >> Oh, that's the Stalin bar. Show me the

[2:15:12] man, I'll show you the crime. >> And there it is. >> Oh my god. >> And here we are 85 years later still having the same debates. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. Now, let me make that personal for a minute. You [ __ ] hate that guy. >> I do. >> And righteously so. I hate him for you. John Brennan. He ruined your life. He I believe committed crimes, by the way, to to ruin your life. If you look at the emails with him and Eric Holder and just some of the stuff he did, >> it's a guy who runs out and says, "Yeah,

[2:15:45] we shouldn't torture people." When he wrote the [ __ ] torture, >> he was the godfather of torture >> program. Yeah. Is there a part of you that would just love vengeance there? >> Oh, yeah. I would love love to see John Brennan go to prison. Even if it was just for a day or a week, just to be dragged down into the muck like he did to me and to Jeffrey Sterling and to Ed Snowden and so many of the rest of us.

[2:16:16] On the other hand, I believe in Robert Jackson and what he said >> and I think that's what makes America great. Yes, that's what makes us the greatest country in the world is we're governed by the rule of law. If he has legitimately committed crimes, and I believe he has, >> he should be prosecuted. If there are others who are under investigation who are subject to prosecutors scouring the law books looking for a crime, I I

[2:16:48] would prefer not to see something like that happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It just it feels very scaring me a little bit >> the the vitriol and anger and it's it's human. I I asked a friend of mine. I have a friend at the Justice Department who's not working on the Brennan case, but who, you know, has friends and colleagues who are. And I said I said, "Why hasn't Brennan been charged yet? I mean, they charged Comey with some silly crime that's probably going to get thrown out. Why haven't they charged Brennan?" And he said, "Um, because they want to get that one right." M. Mhm.

[2:17:23] Yeah. They have an interesting perspective on Brennan. You know, most federal crimes have a 5-year statute of limitations. Most um what we've heard Brennan would be charged with has either a 5-year or a one-year statute of limitations. And they're they're talking about contempt of Congress. big deal. The federal sentencing guideline calls for no prison time, >> right?

[2:17:53] >> So, who cares if he if he was in contempt of Congress? I don't care. Um, lying to Congress, he probably has crossed the statute of limitations. They probably can't charge him. But what their idea is is that the Hunter Biden laptop memo, the Russia NIE, the Russia analysis was all part of an ongoing conspiracy to deny American voters

[2:18:25] their dulyeleed president. So, the statute of limitations keeps restarting itself every day so long as this this uh conspiracy continues. And honestly, I think they've got him on that. I That's the thing. I think they might, too. And this is where this is where it gets weird for me because no man's above the law, right? And it should it should be. >> We sent a vice president of the United

[2:18:55] States to prison. >> Yeah, that was Spiro. >> Spiro Agno, right? They they got the Greek guy. >> Yeah, but he wasn't Orthodox, so it doesn't count. >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah. >> But like I look at that and I go, >> is the slippery slope of letting a man like John Brennan be above the law >> worse than the slippery slope, >> right, >> of the precedents that we are setting across the board right now. >> And it's almost like, and people at home don't want to hear this. I don't want to

[2:19:26] hear this either, especially when it comes to a guy like John Brennan. But it's almost like somebody here, we used this example for something else earlier, but someone here has to be the Martin Luther King and just be like, >> we we're bigger than this. >> We're not doing this because it's making, you know, we're othering each other in this country. I I >> see. And that's exactly why Joe Biden should have pardoned Donald Trump. So many people believed he that's what

[2:19:56] he was going to do. Just like Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for the for the betterment of the country. Yes. Bring the American people back together again. Joe Biden should have pardoned all of those Republicans. >> I agree. >> And he didn't. >> I agree. I agree with you really very much on this issue that at the end of the day. What's more important is the the strength of the country and the unity of the country. It was a mistake

[2:20:27] to charge Donald Trump with 34 felonies for not filling out a freaking form for the, you know, state business commission or whatever the heck it was. That was dumb. Uh, it was a mistake to charge him. I don't even remember what the crime was alleged in Georgia. What was that? Oh, he called the sec Georgia secretary of state and said, "Find [laughter] the votes." Okay. He was excitable that day. It was the election. That that's that's not a crime. That's just a guy having a bad day. [laughter] >> Um,

[2:20:58] Comey, I understand they hate Comey. Comey is an idiot, frankly, for being as smart as he is. He's really stupid at the same time. >> Yeah. like to take a picture of the shells 8647. What the [ __ ] are you thinking, you [ __ ] >> Brennan, however, is different in my mind. I believe Brennan was trying to enact a coup. I really believe it. I think there's evidence that, you know, even if even if you wanted to dress it

[2:21:29] up and call it like a shadow coup or something like that, however you want to say it, >> when you look at all the things that were disproven that were happening on his watch. >> Yeah. >> One plus one plus one plus one plus one. It's >> seriously. And look at it this way, too. There were a lot of bad guys at the CIA at the time that I was there in those circles, right? I mean, we can say terrible things about George Tennant and John McLaclin and Mike Morurell and Jose Rodriguez and Rick Praau and a lot of people. We can say a lot. There were a

[2:22:00] lot of crimes that were committed in the name of national security. Brennan's different. Brennan plotted against an elected president of the United States and he tried to use this, you know, the intelligence community and this lawfare against him and we can't risk that happening again. That that is when you put it like that, it's it's about as sinister as it gets. >> Yeah. Now, now here's the thing, John. I think about this a lot.

[2:22:32] We've been the power in the world for a long time. We have always had people in different parts of power be it government, bureaucracy, corporate which you know one feeds the other. >> There's a lot of crossover >> elites etc. where there are some awful people and people who do corrupt things people who get away with it sometimes because the issue becomes bigger than the person and they're connected enough so we slight we swipe it under sweep it under the rug. But I get this strange feeling

[2:23:03] that there is this deliberate movement now to paint everything that America has ever done >> as evil. It's all bad. Every single [ __ ] >> I hear that a lot. So, I say this to a guy who was legitimately [ __ ] over [snorts] by the United States government and the worst types of people in it, who knows where evil happens and knows that we're not perfect and knows we've done evil [ __ ] around the world for sure. You

[2:23:33] know, do you have a problem with with that narrative? Oh my god, yes. You know, I I I go to bed at night watching Tik Tok videos. I'll watch a hundred of them before I finally fall asleep. And you know, they lead me to mostly First Amendment auditors who I just [laughter] love. I I just love them. Uh and and um conservative um YouTubers who will go out on the street and say, you know, what's the best country in the world? And you know, do you believe the United

[2:24:04] States is the best country in the world? And they say, oh, you know, I would like to live in Denmark or this is the best country on earth. Period. I've been to 72 countries. I'm going to add another five more by the end of next year. This is the best country on earth. Of course, we have problems because we're human. But but the founding fathers gave us a system that is perfect for

[2:24:36] resolving those problems. Right? The three co-equal branches of government. It's a little a skew right now, but it's going to return to where uh where it should be. It always does. >> You think so? >> I do. It always has through history. Um and it it will again, >> but um >> what has to happen for it to return there? >> Congress needs to find where what happened to its ball sack? >> It vanished >> once upon a time. >> I remember Jimmy Carter complaining. I

[2:25:07] was a kid. I was in high school. Jimmy Carter complaining that uh he couldn't get anything done because Congress wouldn't do what he what he told him to do and the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and they were like, "We don't work for you." >> Co-equal branches of government. Well, we've forgotten that, right? >> And so the Democrats are in lock step with Joe Biden. The Republicans are in lock step with Donald Trump. That's not the way it's supposed to be. Yes, work together. But look look at the 80s under

[2:25:38] the Reagan uh presidency. Uh the Democrats controlled the House, the Republicans controlled the Senate for the first four years or six years of the either four or six, I can't remember anymore, of the Reagan presidency, but the speaker of the house was a Massachusetts liberal named Tip O'Neal. >> And what happened? The president would invite him over for breakfast, right? And they would sit and hash things out because they were both gentlemen. >> And that's how you got business done in Washington. >> Let's make a deal.

[2:26:09] >> Exactly. Everything is open to negotiation. Everything. So, let's negotiate. >> And you think we can get back to that? >> I do. I think we can get back to that. >> Mhm. >> Besides, you know, the broad general point, which is appreciated if Congress has to find their balls again. >> Yeah. They're all bums. >> Yeah. But so how do you flush out the attitudes that have formed on both sides within Congress and and Senate at this point where they don't want to do that? >> I think that we need to elect more

[2:26:41] independent thinkers. Listen, I made fun, for example, I made awful fun of Marjorie Taylor Green when she was first elected. You know, the Jewish space lasers and cheating on her husband. And >> I find myself agreeing with Marjorie Taylor Green like 80% of the time now. >> Wow. >> It's nuts. I haven't changed. I see Marjorie Taylor Green as having matured in her role as a member of Congress. >> Yeah. Like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. This isn't how Congress is

[2:27:12] supposed to work. >> What do you like about what she says? Um, I see her as something of a of a very out there civil libertarian >> in the in the mold of uh of um Tom Massie, Thomas Massie, let's say. She's not as smart as Thomas Massie, of course, but they take a lot of similar positions like uh Rand Paul is another example. Bernie Sanders on

[2:27:44] [clears throat] the on the Democratic side is another one, but I think we need more people like that. There's a guy who's been running in the Democratic primary against Nancy Pelosi for years. I met him in like 2016. I don't remember his name. It's an Indian name and I I just don't recall what it is. The guy's an attorney. He's very smart, very bright guy. He's an activist. We need for him to run against people like Nancy Pelosi. I I think my lucky star is that Nancy Pelissi is not running for re-election. Of course,

[2:28:15] she's so young at 82, right? >> That's the guy. That's the guy. I met him at the uh San Francisco Film Festival when we we stopped and chatted. I had never heard of him before. >> How do you say that name? I just butchered that. >> Chakraarti. >> Chuckardi. I've got a friend um he's an originally Indian naturalized American. Bert Thacker. Shout out to Bert Thacker. >> Shout out Bert. >> Bert um

[2:28:46] Bert's a two-time Jeopardy champion. Uh number one. Number two, he is a former Republican congressional candidate in Southern California, moved to Texas, got himself elected to the city council in the city he went to, and is already planning his congressional campaign. We need to have 435 people like Bert Thacker because then we would get stuff done in this country. Bert cares almost not at all about party affiliation. He

[2:29:19] happens to be a Republican, >> right? >> But he just wants to get stuff solved, >> get things done. I think a big difference today that's causing a huge problem which should be like the biggest benefit ever is the fact that all of us have a voice behind a keyboard >> online and we police each other for thought. Now where does that sound very familiar from? Online that then forces its way towards the ballot box and the people who get elected there who are

[2:29:49] from that same world and understand it or if they're not from that world understand that they have to live in it. So, for example, your Nancy Pelosi, you can't possibly make a deal with Donald Trump. That won't play well on TikTok. It won't No, you could. It won't play well on Instagram. It won't play well on Twitter. And you're going to be viewed as a traitor to your people for doing that. Whereas Nancy Pelosi could have tied one off, you know, [ __ ] 25 years ago if Donald Trump were president and, you know, come up with a deal at a [ __ ] K Street Steakhouse and [ __ ]

[2:30:20] could have actually happened, which is exactly how Washington used to work. Yes, you're exactly right. You knew that if you went to the Oval Room at 9:00 on on a Tuesday night, the entire Senate leadership was going to be there having stakes and trying to figure out what to do about the budget. >> Right. at the Trump hotel when it when there was a Trump hotel in Washington. I went with friends a couple of times, more than a couple of times, and we joked that like, my god, is there a

[2:30:53] single member of the Republican House leadership who's not at the bar right now? Like literally every single one of them, but that's how you get stuff done. >> Yes. When I was in college, um it was quite common for members of Congress to share group houses up on Capitol Hill. You'd pack six, seven, eight guys in a in a house because it's expensive in Washington. You have to maintain a house in your district, right? And your family's probably in the district. You still have to have somewhere to live in Washington. So, and

[2:31:23] they they don't really make any money. Well, they do now. >> Great stock pickers. >> 220. It's like a miracle. Like a miracle. >> They're incredible at it. crystal ball. So, um, so it wasn't unusual to have, you know, three Dems and three Republicans in a house or four and four. They'd play poker on Fridays, they'd go to church together on Sundays, and then, you know, they would argue in committee, but they're all friends and they knew that at the end of the day, they could negotiate a deal. >> And that's just not the case anymore.

[2:31:56] >> Yeah. That's why that's where I'm having trouble seeing how that becomes the case again. >> Yeah. because of how people have just been so, you know, and I in this kind of job, I see it all the time. You know, how much people just jump to conclusions on the minute they hear an opinion they don't agree with, they're gone. >> Yeah. >> They're really not. But they say that. >> Oh, I get that all the time. Listen, I'm I'm going to say something that's going to cause me trouble, but I'm going to say it anyway. [sighs and gasps] >> I gave an interview to an Indian news outlet two weeks ago, and I didn't say

[2:32:26] anything that I haven't said a thousand times. for whatever reason and this is why as a matter of policy listen I'm serious no more interviews to any Indian or Pakistani news outlets ever again okay John's policy done >> because they just make [ __ ] up >> and put it in a banner headline with two exclamation points and say that the CIA this CIA officer finally reveals the truth behind you know like no I told you

[2:32:58] my information's 25 years old. Okay. So I said one thing. I said in a conventional conflict India would beat Pakistan because it has five times the people. Yeah. The death threats. I've lost count of how many death threats I received. And then the best of all like my my lawyer is like got to keep a low profile. Just be [laughter] aware aware of your surroundings.

[2:33:30] >> I know, right? >> John's like, "Fuck you." [laughter] >> So, I get a letter from the president of Imran Khan's political party, right? Whatever it's called, the Pakistan whatever party. >> You got a letter, >> a letter in the mail. you and he says that they condemn in uh in the strongest possible terms what I said to the Indians and they demand an immediate apology to his excellency the former prime minister to the members of the

[2:34:02] party and to the people of Pakistan >> for giving an opinion. >> Yeah. So my lawyer is like just throw it away just throw it away. So I didn't throw it away. I sent him an email and I said, >> "Oh my god, in regards to your demand for an apology, I wipe my ass with your demands for an apology." [laughter] And I hit send and that's how I left it and I haven't heard back from them. So my my my lawyer is like, "Well, that

[2:34:34] speaking offer at the uh Pakistani military academy, yeah, you're not going to be doing that." And I said, "No, no, I'll never go back ever again." But they don't they don't treat me with with respect anyway. >> You could have just said, "Explain Bin Laden." >> Yeah. >> Exactly. >> I mean, yeah. Like it would appear mathematically India would >> Yeah. >> would body bag Pakistan. No, you know, no Pakistan. No disrespect. It's just, you know, >> and you know why they hate each other so much? Because they're exactly alike.

[2:35:06] That's why. It used to be one country, >> right? India, Pakistan and Bangladesh was one country called called the Indian subcontinent, right? And then in 1947, India and Pakistan had a brutal bloody war and they split off. >> So all the Muslims went west to Pakistan and all the Hindus went east to uh to India. But now there are more Muslims than there are you know pretty much anybody else in they have a higher birth

[2:35:38] rate in India. But anyway, and then by 1971, I think it was, Bangladesh is like, "Screw this. They're part of Pakistan." They were called East Pakistan. And they're like, "Pakistan's all the way over there. We disagree with everything. So, we're going to be independent, too." And they created Bangladesh. >> Okay. Well, India has five times more people than Pakistan does. And the Bangladeshies like the Indians, and the Afghans like the Indians and hate the Pakistanis. So if you're Pakistan and

[2:36:09] you're outmanned and surrounded by your enemies, you going to win that fight? >> Yeah. They don't seem to have like a lot of friends. >> No. >> Right. >> No. Cuz they write threatening letters and expect immediate action. >> I love that they wanted a retraction. >> Yeah. A retraction. >> Last time I was in your country, I land I ran the greatest targeting mission in modern history. Don't [ __ ] with me. >> That's right. And he wants a he he neglected to say in the letter that his prime minister is in prison right now. >> Oh, he's in prison. Oh, yeah. Why is he in prison? >> Oh, for all kinds of reasons. Treason

[2:36:40] and >> he's still prime minister. >> No, no, they deposed him. >> So, he's not running it from the prison cell. >> No. Well, he's trying he's running the party from his prison cell. Got it. They got a new prime minister. >> Ah, it's so awkward. >> Yeah. And he wants an apology from me. Now I think you should apologize to all of the people of Pakistan for being a you know corrupt >> typical corrupt leader in Pakistan. They're all corrupt. Listen, one time I was with uh with a colleague, a more senior colleague. We went to see Benazir Bhau. We went to see Benazir Bhau. She

[2:37:10] was in exile in Dubai and [snorts] um her husband was this guy Zardari. I think his first name is Hussein, something like that. And uh so we're at the uh we're at her beachfront mansion, her $10 million beachfront mansion in Dubai. This is a woman who was making, you know, 60 grand a year as prime minister. >> Hey, listen. Good investor, >> right? So we hear a car pulling up outside and

[2:37:41] she said something off-handedly that has just been ingrained in my mind ever since. She says, "So [snorts] help me God. If he's pulling up in another Bentley, I'm going to lose my mind." [laughter] And my boss and I kind of look at each other like, "Corrupt a little bit?" >> Yeah. >> You make 60 grand a year. How many Bentleys do you have with your $10 million beachfront house in Dubai? And then she went back, became prime minister again, got shot in the head.

[2:38:13] Now he's the president of Pakistan. her husband, her corrupt husband. >> Funny how the world works. >> Yeah. >> You know, that is the thing. The patterns are the same everywhere in different different societies. Human nature. >> It's human nature. You get people that get into powerful positions that have connections to be able to do things that the average person can't. >> Whether it's legal or not, they do it. >> It's you're 100% it's it is human nature. And like now in the internet

[2:38:43] era, we can just see it more right in front. >> I think you're exactly right about that. Yeah, the the information is much more re readily available for us. It's just there almost instantaneously. How much in your career at CIA did you either see directly or get an inkling or a vibe of say elite forces that were not a part of CIA playing roles or having say or

[2:39:14] having some sort of influence over decisions that the agency was making. >> I didn't. >> Never. >> No. It was always the other way around. After 911, we were short on um special forces guys. You know, we had this thing called the special activities division and then within the counterterrorism center, there was the special activities group. Um but we needed operators like not the ones like John that were going to, you know, whine and dine the guy and recruit him. Exactly.

[2:39:45] And so we just borrowed people from the special forces. So all of a sudden, I mean, like in in the matter of a week or two after 911, >> we've got SEALs, we have Delta, we have Rangers, we have all these people, >> and they're all they're not what you might imagine. They're not they're not these buff, you know, hemen that stepped out of a magazine. They had five days beard, little bit of a gut. they could do some

[2:40:15] heavy drinking and then get up and run five miles, which I never understood. Um, but they they knew exactly what the mission was and by God, they were happy to get on a plane, jump out the back of it, and then do the mission and then figure out how to rescue them later. >> I've had a couple of those guys sitting here. >> Yeah, they're they're very, very tough guys. Yeah, >> they're built a little different. >> Yeah, they are. I've never understood how I've never understood how guys like that can negotiate

[2:40:50] the psychological weight of what comes with their jobs. It is a the fact that you haven't figured that out is not reassuring because I sit here and wonder the same thing sometimes. There is the only thing I can come up with is there's just a different gene. I think that's it. I've got two friends. One was a medic um on Seal Team 2. He's an older guy. He's about eight years older than I am. So, this is when the SEAL teams were first created out of what used to be

[2:41:22] called the underwater demolition teams. And I've got a buddy who's currently a SEAL. I won't say which team. He's the son-in-law of a very close friend of mine. He does struggle with these issues. My my older friend from Seal Team 2 sleeps like a baby every night. No problem. >> I think it's person to person. >> I think it is >> right. >> Yeah. >> But also they pick certain guys for certain teams or certain missions. >> That's right.

[2:41:53] >> Who maybe they've tested under scrutiny and stress. Not to say, by the way, that sometimes once the guys are done their career and come home, they don't bring it home with them. >> And they frequently do. >> Oh, yeah. They frequently do and it's it's a sad thing to see. >> Sad. But when when they're in there, there's something about like reach go >> mission >> and that's it. >> All about the mission. >> Yeah. >> You know, glad they're on my side, though. >> Yeah. Me, too. >> Right. >> Yep. Got that right. >> So, they were just And I mean, I've

[2:42:25] talked with guys about this before. It was obviously like a [ __ ] show right after 9/11. All hands on deck. But >> basically a lot the way you're explaining it is a lot of these guys minus just some of the basic like on the ground forces we know from the paramilitary operation that happened right away in Afghanistan. But a lot of these guys were literally like hey you're in you're right in you're in >> they just showed up one day. I'm telling you at at the counterterrorism center >> we we more than doubled in size within two three days.

[2:42:55] >> Wow. And then even after that all these all these special forces guys just arrived like okay where do we go and then they started doing their thing. >> And when how soon was it after the towers came down that you were first approached about with the enhanced interrogation? >> Oh it was quite some time. Towers came down in September 11th. We started bombing Afghanistan in early October. Um, it was in late October that Mitchell and Jessen were introduced to George

[2:43:26] Tennant at a at a cocktail party. They pitched the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. I think we signed the contract in January. Uh, and then we were just waiting to see who's the first guy we're going to catch. We caught up with a beta in March. >> Yeah, I was going to say we're going to Pakistan >> and then I was approached the first week of May >> of 2002. >> Okay. And then you were still in there for a few years afterwards. I mean, obviously that is the core part of your story. We've told that on episode 249

[2:43:58] and 250 a bunch before. We don't have to go through all that. >> Sure. >> But >> that was a disturbing thing that you saw at CIA. >> Yeah. Are there other things now years later that you're willing to talk about that you came across that maybe didn't involve you directly like that where people were like, "Hey, we want to actually bring you in on this that you just found viciously disturbing that they were doing?" >> No. Um I all throughout my CIA career I I worked with people who were doing

[2:44:29] their jobs to the highest ethical standard. It was it was because it post 911. >> Mhm. >> And everybody just kind of went nuts because this was the greatest intelligence failure in the CIA's history and because it was specific to the counterterrorism center. I think that's why there was so much that was sort of revealed to me. But otherwise, no. In fact, one time one time I was the notetaker. I was I

[2:45:00] was living in Bahrain at the time and um and uh Ambassador David Ransom, just an absolutely lovely guy, one of the just finest human beings I've ever worked for. He was a terrific ambassador and just a just a really great guy. Um he would frequently ask me to be the notetaker in his meetings with the uh Minister of Foreign Affairs. And the minister liked me and I liked him. his English was better than mine, crazy as that might sound. >> But um

[2:45:32] if there was something sensitive that the ambassador needed to raise, he would always mention it to me in the car on the way to the foreign ministry like, "Don't let me forget to say X." And I'd jot down a note. So we went to see the foreign minister one time and um and he did forget to say X. And so at the end of the meeting, and these meetings would go two hours, he turned to me and he said, "Is there anything else? Is there anything that I'm forgetting?" And I said, "Yes, there's the issue with Ambassador soandso."

[2:46:04] And he said, "Oh, that's right." and he said uh he said to the foreign minister, "One of my predecessors here in Bahrain, it's come to my attention uh is now working for the Bob Dole campaign and we understand that he may come out here and ask you for money. It is illegal for a foreign national to contribute money to an American political campaign." So, I just wanted to give you a heads up. H. And the

[2:46:36] minister says, "Oh, he's already been here. We gave him $50,000. We didn't realize it was illegal, but he went to see the Amir." And the Amir gave him $50,000. So, [snorts] we get back in the car and the ambassador says, "Listen, that last part, don't put that in the cable." He said, "That's a hornet's nest that I don't think either one of us want to be involved involved in." So, I didn't put it in the cable. You break the cable out by issue like the ambassador's meeting

[2:47:07] with the foreign minister Middle East peace, the ambassador's meeting with foreign minister uh the military agreement with the United States, ambassadors meeting with the foreign minister Iran and the threat from you know whatever. He told me not to write that. This was like a month or two or three before I I left to go back to headquarters. And I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it and I thought, you know, for my own selfish reasons, what happens if I go for my next polygraph and they ask me if

[2:47:38] I'm aware of a crime that I didn't report? >> Then then it's me, then I get fired. So I just pick up the phone one day and I call the general counsel's office. Guy a guy answers the phone, George, and I said, "Hi, my name's John Kuryaku. I'm in the uh office of Near Eastern South Asian analysis. He goes, "Wait, Kuryaku, are you from Ferrell, Pennsylvania?" And I go, "What?" I go, "Yeah, I was born in Frell, Pennsylvania." He said, "Is your dad Chris?" And I said, "Yeah, you know

[2:48:10] my dad?" And he said, "Your dad was the best man in my in-laws wedding." >> Oh my god. >> And I said, "Oh, cool." He says, "Let's have coffee." I said, "Okay." Better than just reporting this crime over the phone to a stranger. >> So with me in the cafeteria, nice guy. We're still friendly. Not friends, but we're friendly. So, uh, [snorts] so I said, you know, there's something I I'm aware of. I don't know if it's a big deal or not. It kind of feels like it might be a big deal, but I don't want it to trip me up on the polygraph. So, I told him, he's like, oh yeah, that's a

[2:48:42] felony. [laughter] And I said, okay, so like, so I'm done. I don't have to write it write it down or anything. He said, put it in an email and send it to me. He said, I I'll send it over to DOJ. But at the very least, we have to report it because if word gets back to DOJ that you knew about it or I knew about it or your ambassador knew about it, we're all liable to be prosecuted. >> So I sent him an email and uh I don't know a year later or so since he was Greek and we had this Greek American

[2:49:13] kind of group at the agency. We would have lunch together once a month after that once George Tennant became director. Um, I asked him what ever happened to uh that thing. He said, "They didn't give a [ __ ] Nothing ever happened." I said, "Okay, well, we did the right thing." >> You did the right thing. I wonder if it had had two zeros at the end of that, two extra zeros if they would have given a little more of a [ __ ] >> right? >> I mean, 50K from the Amir feels like grab grab that change off the ashtray. >> Listen, you know what I mean?

[2:49:44] >> The the DCM, the deputy chief of mission, >> another good guy. his wife uh developed a very serious case of breast cancer while while we were there and she had to be medevaced back to the United States and the DCM went to uh curtail his his position he had to go back take care of his wife etc etc they had a nine-year-old daughter at the time this box arrives from the royal diwan it's just a box wrapped in brown paper and um

[2:50:16] and he said to me I I got something from the royal dwan. And I said, "Oh, that's kind of cool. I never got anything from the royalty diwan, the royal palace." And he says, "Don't leave. I'm thinking I might need a witness." And I said, "Okay." He opens it up. $50,000 in cash with a getwell card to his wife. That's what lovely people they were. >> They are. They remain lovely people. We can't accept $50,000. So I walked 20 ft

[2:50:49] to the ambassador's office and knocked on the door and I said, "Ambassador, you're going to want to see this." So he comes over. He's like, "Oh, for God's sake." And he said, "I I just got it from the Royal Dwan." And he said, "Okay, we need to count it. We need witnesses." So we counted it all out. It was 50,000. And then I wrote a cable to the Treasury Department saying, "We're pouching back $50,000 that's from the Amir." And it just goes into the Treasury with our tax dollars. Well, I guess thank you for the donation

[2:51:20] to our tax revenue. >> Yeah, >> there's something gets used, right? >> Yeah, it gets used. Sure. >> Do you think that have you discovered things in the years since being out of CIA, which has been a long time now? >> Been out a long time. >> That shocks you. And and before you answer that, the reason I asked that is because whether it's CIA, NSA, Sure. Wherever, >> a brilliant tactic that all these bureaucracies use is they

[2:51:51] compartmentalize people to work on what they're working on. >> That's right. And that's what they want you to do. They want you to be compartmentalized so you're not wondering what Fred's doing down the hall. >> That's right. >> Cuz it's none of your damn business what Fred's doing down the hall. So question remains. Are there things that you've discovered that CIA does that >> doesn't have to be a for bad reason either but >> Oh yeah I've been shocked you? >> Yeah I've been shocked. I was shocked with the um Vault 7 revelations in 2017. >> The Wikileaks stuff. >> Yeah that was shocking. >> Now what was that? >> Vault 7 is very complicated. Among other

[2:52:23] things, Vault 7 showed that the CIA had develop had developed hacking capability where they could hack into, you know, the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Cubans, whomever, hack the system and then leave traces of the hack on purpose, but with the traces written in cerillic or Mandarin >> so that once they were discovered by the IT security guys in those countries, they'd say, "Oh, It was the Russians that did it. They

[2:52:54] left, look, they left one little line of code and it's all written in Russian >> conveniently. >> Yeah. So, that was one thing. Another thing that Vault 7 taught us was that the CIA um developed the capability to take over your car remotely by hacking into the car's computer system to drive you off a bridge or into a tree. >> Now, did we discover examples of where this was used? >> We did not. But the conventional wisdom among the blogersphere is that, you

[2:53:24] know, we should ask Michael Hastings what happened to him. >> Um. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Vault 7 also told us that the CIA is able to take over a smart TV to turn the the speaker into a microphone so that it broadcasts everything taking place in the room with the TV still off. Well, the TV's on. So, hello. >> Pretty impressive. >> Hello, Langley. Yeah. How are you?

[2:53:55] >> So, what that told me, those are very cool. And and there were a dozen more things that were part of Vault 7. But what it also told me is that [snorts] the CIA is running parallel operations with NSA. Why is the CIA developing this stuff? This is NSA and DARPA that should be doing it. And NSA and DARPA are doing it, >> but the CIA is also doing it. How do you like what? >> Because >> on the one hand they have so much money that they can't spend it all

[2:54:26] >> so they just make their own NSA, make their own DARPA. I have a buddy I sat next to him for the first three and a half years of my career. >> He's now the deputy director of the CIA for innovation. Like what's that? He was always a computer nerd. >> Yeah. And I remember he got a he got an award like 1991 because he came up with a program uh to make a very crude family tree. Like computers were new to us at the time. When I first started, I had this big box that had a green screen. It

[2:54:58] was about that big called a Delta data. And I had an IBM Select Electric 3 typewriter next to me because half of what we did was on this uh typewriter still. So he came up with this crude family tree so we could do the Saudi royal family, the Kuwaiti royal family, Bahini royal family, just so it's, you know, clear when you're doing your analysis. And they were like, "Wow, you did that on this new computer. That's amazing. Here's $500 and an exceptional performance award. Now he's the deputy director of the CIA for innovation, which tells me that he's in charge of

[2:55:30] all this crazy [ __ ] that we're reading about at Wikileaks." That's what I don't understand though, like why even have DARPA or NSA if it's not just a department of like CIA or and the other way around with CIA being a department. You know what I mean? Like why do you even have separation? Because the same you may I'll give you an example. >> You may call on >> [ __ ] Tim Cook at Apple to take care of something they need. If you're DARPA,

[2:56:00] it's like CIA can call them too. Yeah, sure. >> So, why aren't they all just under one roof? >> Often times, it's a bureaucratic pissing match where the Secretary of Defense will say, "Well, C CIA does its own thing for its own reasons. We're very specific. Our mission is, you know, to protect the homeland and our troops and whatever." CIA is like, "We don't really give a [ __ ] about the troops. We don't have any any troops except maybe we'll see them in the cafeteria when we're at some base somewhere. So, we want it for CIA reasons." And NSA is like, "Well,

[2:56:30] wait a minute. we're NSA. This is exactly what we're supposed to be doing, so we're going to be doing it. >> But again, when you have so much money that you can't spend it all in a fiscal year, you end up just replicating >> uh what the other guys are doing. >> And does Congress even actually know what kind of money >> that CIA has? >> No. How does that get hidden? single year, year after year after year after year, Congress appropriates more money than the Defense Department asks for.

[2:57:01] >> I wonder why. >> Yeah, cuz then you're you're not weak on defense. Those pinkos otherwise, you know. Yeah. and and there's how many trillions of dollars missing and after how many years of of internal audits Price Waterhouse Cooper just gave up and said we don't know where this money went. It's just gone. >> How do you like what what kind of I guess look through, see through, work

[2:57:32] with, however you want to say it, did you have with NSA >> during your career for things you did and what was that like? >> I had a good relationship with NSA. I made a point of making that long drive out to NSA at least once a year just to say, "Hey, how you guys doing? What are you working on? Let's go have a coffee in the cafeteria." And then we would invite them to come over to the agency. They would always come like six or eight at a time and we'd spend the day and take them to the gift shop and whatever. >> She got along.

[2:58:02] >> Oh yeah. Always got along. And then they would they would call and say, "Listen, we're going to publish something in about an hour, but you need you need to know what this is because you work on XYZ issue." And they would give me a heads up so I could call the seventh floor and say, "Listen, NSA is coming out with something big. This is what they're going to say." Um, and that was a valuable relationship. Um, even operationally I had a good relationship with NSA to the point where in one of my overseas tours I worked closely with an NSA

[2:58:35] officer and he really did me a solid. Um, there were a couple of phone numbers I asked him to just start intercepting and tell me if there's anything interesting. and just to be a nice guy. He also began intercepting the phone of one of my sources. >> And so he said to me one day, "Hey, I I have [snorts] a present for you." And he gives me this file and it's a transcript of everything that my source has said. And I was like, "This is [ __ ]

[2:59:05] brilliant." So now I can say, "Hey, do you ever talk to soand so because I know it's there. I know he does." And then if he says, "Yeah, actually I talked to I talked to him on Tuesday." You did? What did he say? And then he'll just pair it back. So I know he's telling the truth. That's called operational vetting. >> And so I can write to headquarters and say I know for 100% certainty that he's telling me the truth. >> Wow. So there that's interesting because you always hear about like this inter

[2:59:36] agency rivalry and stuff and you would think that when CIA has their own innovation and technology design ar >> working together. It's just weird. >> Yeah. And then throw in throw in the whole nonsense about Inqel and Palunteer where >> please do throw it in John >> where the CIA now is in the venture capital business for a profit. >> Uhhuh. >> Which is illegal. Um they

[3:00:06] >> not if you're writing the laws. Not not if you're writing the laws where the CIA in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 created something called inqell which is a cutesy you know play on intel with Q from the James Bond movies in the middle. Like I hope they didn't pay somebody to come up with [laughter] that. But anyway, um [snorts] it's like the kind of famous story that the >> that the tourism board of Scotland spent $150,000

[3:06:50] >> And they'll do as they're told and they'll keep their mouth shut. >> Karp is is militarily industrially conservative, but he's technically a Democrat, right? >> Yeah. I think he never switched his party affiliation. Yeah. He's like a little hard to put in a box with some things, but >> and he has said that in interviews where >> party politics don't hold any interest for him, >> right? >> Yeah. It's tough >> when you start talking about surveilling

[3:07:20] citizens though at like a protest you don't like or something like that >> with drones the size of a of a bumblebee or or a wasp. Yeah. >> So no one can even see it. >> Yeah. >> We're getting to the birds aren't real territory. >> Very much. Very much. Yes, we are. Yes. It's frightening. >> What about when they're a a company that is contracted by CIA and for all intents and purposes created by CIA sense that they funded them? How about them working on other conflicts around the world

[3:07:50] though? Isn't that like a conflict of interest? >> Four other countries. >> Yes, >> I would say it is. But they would probably argue that they've stovepiped everything and that there's no crossover. that if they're working on a CIA project, it's just these people in this box working on a CIA project. If they have an MI6 project, it's over here and never the two shall meet. But what about Arais Corporation? Here's here's another one. So, right around the time that I came home from Athens in 2000, there was a kind of

[3:08:21] a wave of senior level um retirements. And these were all pretty important guys, you know, the head of European operations, the head of near east operations, the head of domestic operations, whatever. And um they decided to just create an LLC where they could go, you know, smoke cigars and drink coffee and hang out and play peuckle all day and uh take a tax deduction. [snorts] And so you got to show

[3:08:52] you got to show a gain in two out of five years in order to keep your LLC. So they put in for a couple what they call butts and seats uh contracts where you just take anybody who's got a security clearance, put them in these seats, let them do data entry for six months, and then the contract's over and they all get fired. They all have 1099s anyway, so you don't care. Well, now they're like a, you know, 20

[3:09:23] billion dollar company because at headquarters, I remember this happening at the time. They're like, "Oh, we we have a real need for XYZ." And somebody says, "What about Jack? Jack's got this Abraasis thing now. >> We know everybody. They're all friends of ours. >> Greatest shell company of all time." >> And then there you go. >> Yeah. >> And it was taken over once, twice, three times. It changed its name a couple times. I think it's still known as a brais based in Tyson's Corner, Virginia. These guys never expected to be billionaires. They were just looking for

[3:09:55] a tax deduction on their coffee and cigars. >> Oh, that's the definition of finding money. It's like, oh, there it is. There it is. I might as well take it. [laughter] >> But like back to Palunteer though, they're So you would imagine they're compartmentalizing for different countries. Doesn't it get weird though when you have an organization that has intel about every one of these countries individually themselves that allegedly they're not passing back the CIA

[3:10:27] >> especially when the conventional wisdom is that this is a CIA company? >> Yeah. Like wouldn't doesn't that feel a little bit like it could be the start of a 1984 novel? I would guess that, okay, if they're working for the Brits, the Australians, the Canadians, the New Zealanders, we don't care. >> Okay. >> Okay. Because Five Eyes, we're all sharing everything anyway. >> Okay. >> But let's say they're working for the French, the Germans, whatever. The Hungarians, who knows? I don't know. Um, I am gonna say that an

[3:11:00] officer from the CIA's um, National Resources Division, those CIA officers around the United States, the National Resources Division was created just so when a corporate CEO or other officer went to a denied area, say he went to Moscow for a meeting or Beijing for a meeting, somebody from the NR division would go and say, "Hey, you know, I'm from the CIA. you're a patriot. Can I ask you some questions about your trip? They always always say yes >> because they're patriots. I would guess

[3:11:33] that with Palunteer, they there are regular routine meetings within our division saying, "Ah, you know, I was in uh the United Arab Emirates the other day and I ran into soand so and this is what he's interested in." And you know, something like that. >> Yeah, that one just scares me. I don't know. It's also like the guy, you did the biography on him, but the guys who are in charge just seem a little [sighs] >> Teal and Karp when they talk, they seem a little divorced from reality,

[3:12:03] particularly of the everyman, to be clear. >> I think that's how starts. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Totally agree. >> Look at Elon Musk. You know >> what about Elon >> I mean he's not the same Elon Musk from 10 or 20 years ago. >> I told you my my Elon Musk story. >> Yeah. back at when you met him at the across the street from the White House at the hotel >> Adam's hotel. >> When you say he's not the same guy like just normal personality changes or >> I think it's a combination of things. You know, he just signed a $1 trillion

[3:12:34] contract with Tesla. He's going to have to make a bunch of a bunch of targets to uh to collect that money. But >> it's no longer about the technology. It's no longer about, for example, when is the last time you heard him talk about colonizing Mars? Time was you couldn't get him to shut up about colonizing Mars. What about the high-speed vacuum tube that we were supposed to go from from LA to San Francisco in 45 minutes? What happened

[3:13:05] to that, >> John? Men, I when I saw that trillion dollar deal, I had a thought that I was like, damn, I should have had this thought [ __ ] 15 years ago. Like when you look at the math because it was already true then, but men are becoming countries. >> Yes, >> he's a country. >> Yeah, >> it's about to be worth a trillion dollars. >> And you know, if I were Elon Musk, I would worry about, you know, an eat the rich movement. >> Of course, >> I I really would. I would worry for my own safety.

[3:13:35] >> Well, he has positioned himself. I'm not even saying this is wrong at all. I'm saying it's just interesting. He's positioned himself as the man of the people who saved free speech and is speaking for the everyman and funded Trump who represents the everyman and stuff like that. But you are absolutely right that who said this the other day? I want to give them credit, but it's like it should be the Captain Obvious point, but they just put it so beautifully and it's exactly what it is. They're like the future isn't a division

[3:14:06] of left right problems. That's just what we're looking at right now. It's up down. It's elite and everyone else. And when you look at any empire that has fallen around the world, one of the many traits of the falling of the empire, and I would argue it's probably the most important trait is a severe separation and disagreement in future and hope as it pertains to the lower classes and the elites. And we talked about it earlier with something else, but you see that

[3:14:36] wealth cap divide. This is something that's happening around the world. people who are getting so wealthy that you know chump change of their wealth could solve world problems and I say this as someone who is in no way a socialist or anything like that I I don't agree with that ideology but >> you know does a person need a trillion dollars no the [ __ ] they don't sorry >> sorry I I don't I'm I don't think I think it's a slippery slope to say oh you make that illegal but like you got to have some self-awareness or something

[3:15:07] I don't know give some of it way. I I I don't know. It's easy for me to sit here as a guy who's more than Warren Buffett has famously said that he's leaving his children literally nothing. >> Respect that a lot. >> I do too. Every cent of it goes to charity. >> And you know what? If I don't know how his kids or grandkids feel about that, but I would imagine if they get older and wiser, especially like the grandkids and the ones who are younger, they'll they'll thank them for that. >> Yeah, they will. >> You're not you you don't have any fulfillment in life when you're just giving money. Mm-m.

[3:15:37] >> I I always in my old career, I I saw that, you know, >> the kids that had the trust funds, they were just dead. >> Oh, yeah. >> They were dead. >> Yeah. And they never really reached any kind of potential. >> Nope. They were always living in the shadow of something that wasn't theirs. And I felt I actually felt bad for a lot of them, you know, like they didn't choose to have that happen, >> you know? >> Yeah. >> But >> agreed. >> I I I just think there's something about the purpose of life that like you make your own way, whatever that is, you You know, I do something public. I want to

[3:16:08] be the greatest in the world at it. I will be one day. You know, I'm going to have kids. >> Yep. >> I want them to go do their own [ __ ] thing. I don't want them to worry about like what their dad did. And >> None [clears throat] of my kids, none of my five kids have any interest in doing what I did, which I think is wonderful. And they've all done things completely different from each other. My oldest is a bond trader >> in uh Chicago. My second is an elementary school music teacher in North Carolina. My third is getting a degree

[3:16:40] in supply chain economics. My fourth changes her mind, but right now she's studying engineering. And my fifth is is in eighth grade. >> But uh they're all they have completely different interests, which I think is the best and the healthiest. >> And that's and and that you know I just think that leads to more happiness that way too. And it's great that you support that as well. Also, not for nothing, I wouldn't want to follow in your footsteps after what they did to you as well. So, maybe that would be one good thing come out of it. Right.

[3:17:11] >> That's right. That's right. >> John, it is always a pleasure, man. We'll do this again. >> Always enjoy coming here and seeing you. >> Love talking with you about world events. You have such a good outlook on stuff. So, until next time. >> Good. We'll have everything linked down below for you. Your ex, your substack, your new show, all that. >> Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. >> Okay. >> Great. I look forward to it. Thank All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a

[3:17:42] huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.
