Title: Enema of the State
Show: Enema of the State
Date: 2023-01-26
URL: https://youtu.be/9R5FpNBJ8GQ
Duration: 24:00

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[00:06] joined by my guest Joe Laurier in Alexandria he's the editor-in-chief of consortiumnews.com in Washington we have John kiriaku he is a former CIA officer and in Paris we crossed through Jean Brook Mall he is a political commentator all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump at any time he won and I always appreciate it I'll go to Joe first and Alexandria there's not much debate in Western media in Western in the public sphere in general about the conflict in Ukraine which is a real pity because at the end of the day it is at the expense of the

[00:38] ukrainians actually but because there is no trust left we have admissions from Merkel perochenko and Olan that they never dealt in good faith with the Russians and I'm obviously making reference to the minska process so negotiations at this point are not really in the cards and I really don't see how an informative sense negotiations we played out this is going to be done unilaterally one way or another Joe yeah unfortunately you're probably right let's establish that this war should

[01:09] never have happened because as you said they wouldn't they were not serious about the Minsk Accords they were deceiving Russia to set up uh to train NATO to train Ukraine for the war that they wanted that they needed it started in 2014 with a coup you nobody in the west knows that very few people there's no debate there's no discussion there's no historical context there's no understanding of what Minsk is there's no understanding that NATO uh was all and the US were offered treaty proposals in December of 2021 by Russia to create a security architecture that would

[01:40] include Russia's security interests all of that was ignored by the West because they wanted this war and they got it and they have no intention you're absolutely right of negotiating this they are admitting that we're that Russia is winning the war that Ukraine is losing even though it's very difficult to know exactly what's going on on the ground by the very fact that they want to send more more RMS including these German tanks which is the big issue being discussed so uh I I'm afraid that there

[02:10] are various scenarios and we don't really know of course it's impossible to know when and how this war will end but the scenarios would be uh the destruction of the Ukrainian military um the the um Russia could seize all of it to start Russian lands that were in Ukraine they could have to take Kiev perhaps in order to finish denotification although I don't see battling for Kiev uh in the streets of Kiev to take over the capital but some engineering of a coup d'etat

[02:42] may be possible that may end the war uh ultimately the West wants to keep bleeding Russia so they can get back to their ultimate aim which was to overthrow the Russian government weaken it with the economic war with the saint with the information War but the proxy where all of which are failing I must say okay John let me go to John in Washington you know one of the discursively if you look at how this narrative has been constructed and Joe did a wonderful job of introducing it here the problem with negotiations as

[03:14] people call it in the west is that towards what end see I would like to see peace how do we achieve peace but the problem is NATO Washington London Kevin Warsaw because those are the major Capitals in this they want Victory now see Victory and peace you know they're two very different things and if you want Victory well you're you're playing you're all you're playing with the with the ultimate uh uh weapon that could

[03:46] possibly used in a conflict but if you want peace that's a very different story but that's that's not a track they want to take John oh I think I think that's exactly right Peter uh and you know the the American government has has not prepared the American people or the American Congress for peace they've only talked about Victory and you're right they're two very vastly different things uh you know here in the in the U.S in the mainstream media we see only news about how well

[04:18] Ukraine is doing we see reports with headlines saying Russia is losing uh that's a disservice to both the American people and to the Ukrainian people nobody's prepared for either a long-term uh uh battle or for peace which as you note correctly is is very very different from uh from Victory Sean you know because of the way the narrative is constructed here Europe is taking the

[04:49] brunt of this at least economically we may even see social and political unrest as a result here because you have characters like the head of NATO steltenberg if if Ukraine is defeated then the West is defeated but I thought the West wasn't involved in this war they can't even keep their narrative straight here and and and and what it does is is that I can guarantee you am I only expressing my personal opinion Russia will not lose this conflict under no circumstances under no conditions it

[05:20] will not lose now what losing and winning can be up you know it's in the eyes of the beholder let's put it that way but from the Russian perspective they're not going to lose this I don't think Europe was prepared for that the decision makers for the the preparing for this war they weren't prepared for that Russia was supposed to Buckle in a matter of days the ruble was going to go to trash and it would be all over but it's it hasn't and it won't happen Jean go ahead in Paris no I'm quite convinced that Russia will not lose but of course Ukraine is losing

[05:50] but it's not collapsing yet at least you see the the fog light move but not not very fast I mean it's not like the German line in 1918 it's still more like the trenches were so I don't know what's going to happen I mean the westport's more more and more weapons there I know what's going to happen but I'm worried about the intensification of the conflict now Estonia is speaking of blocking the Gulf of Finland if they do that it's an act of War yeah but of course if Russians react to that they

[06:20] would easily overrun Estonia that's not the problem but then it will be another unprovoked aggression against a NATO member Article 5 blah blah blah I don't know what they're going to do and I'm also interested in the internal repression especially in France because you may know or not know but now they have totally canceled banned active hands they have cut their they are source of funding I mean the banks cannot pay them and get money anymore so the the banks cannot pay the company

[06:51] their workers so you have a hundred plus uh journalists all on the door at the same time and there is a campaign against them some people say they should be vidify they've been working for the enemy and so on so forth I mean the attack on rft France are just unbelievable unbelievable it's not unbelievable because they don't believe in free speech anymore that is something they don't care about let's say that's the least you can say but the grade 68 newspaper Liberation which

[07:23] still has surgery an old 68 they're coming back to Hype for them of course violently anti-russian editorials I mean this newspaper was the first the most vicious against RT and wanting to bang RT so it's really you know in 60 they say is forbidden to forbid but now of course it's compulsory to forbid it is amazing how the the change of the situation and then and then of course yeah I mean RT depending effective for me is a major step and of course

[07:55] not as influential as he used to be now he says there should be of course tribunal after the war tribunal of course for the Russian leadership but also for the collaborators and their includes okay John you're making my point here let me go back to Joe here a tribunals all of these things here I mean there's there's no pretense of trying to find a solution to this conflict here there is action there is one though go back to December 17 2021 that's what Russia wanted it was made

[08:26] public and it was brushed off those still those demands are still there and that's your starting point if you want to have negotiations but I think we're going to get the same exact response as we did um this time as we did then Joe in April there was an opportunity there was an opportunity for a negotiation right then and Ukraine would have come out in a lot better shape of course they would have had to agree that Crimea and the Don bass were part of Russia and not

[08:57] joined NATO but of course the United States and Britain but Boris Johnson in the Forefront prevented that negotiation and they will continue to prevent that if bakamut falls or when it falls that could be an opportunity then to enter a negotiation because that is a very symbolic battle going on right now but I don't think that's going to happen because the West wants this war to continue with the grave danger that it could escalate to the S the ultimate conflict and that could be the way the war ends we're all dead and this is what the West is playing with fire right now

[09:28] they will not accept that um ultimately they will have to agree to those treaties or some form of that that they will have to accommodate Russia's security interests like the osce said like the uh the Helsinki Accords this is something that that even macron and Schultz at least that early on in the conflict were making some noises about it until America told them to shut up basically so I that is the only way to do it is to get a negotiation I don't know whether Russia is interested at this point in a negotiation we don't

[10:00] know exactly what they're well but Joe I think I can answer that a little bit at least for my observation let me go to John here well why would the Russians go into negotiations with anybody in the west they've been lied to left right and Center for years why would you even contemplate talking to these people no what's going to happen is political facts on the ground will be made John go ahead in Washington yeah exactly you're exactly right Peter you can't you can't trust anything that the West says because everything has been a lie you know we say this here all the time uh

[10:32] the Russians have several different times just in the most recent history uh trusted the West to be honest in their uh negotiating points and they've never been honest you know we hear a lot too Peter here in the United States about the Russians being willing to fight to the last Ukrainian well I would say that the truth is that it's it's the Americans and NATO that are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian we hear in the news every day hear about tanks

[11:03] right all the news over the weekend was about tanks tanks tanks tanks aren't going to change the course of this war the ukrainians can't win this over the long term the only way that they could is with direct NATO uh intervention and that just simply won't happen in the end uh we're gonna see the destruction of Ukraine we're going to see the destruction of the Ukrainian government and we're going to see the the movement of the Ukrainian people out of the country unless they agree to sit down

[11:35] with the Russians just as the Russians ask many many months ago and negotiate a deal yeah well you know all I can say about the ridiculous tan conversation they will they all melt the same way gentlemen they all melt the same way all right gentlemen I'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a hard break and after that hard break we'll continue our discussion on the end game okay let's go back to Jean in Paris you know if we look at all of the recent controversies and we can go back to Russia gate and we can go back to

[12:05] um perceptions of the 2020 election in the United States we and all the things floating around the Biden Administration right now and then of course we have Ukraine and you know if they all have one thing in common bad and flawed narratives create bad outcomes bad policy outcomes and we're talking about in this program possible end game negotiations but if I go to our guest in Paris well any negotiations with the Russians is Munich it's Munich every day it's Munich okay

[12:35] how do you get out of that cul-de-sac because you know they it's giving moral justification geopolitics is not about morality it's not about values it's about power okay but the West will always commingle all these other ridiculous things and never really get to the heart of the matter as I said in the beginning of the program if you want peace then work through that prism they refuse to do it because every day is Munich go ahead John in Paris yeah yeah

[13:06] it's funny that in Germany for example the IFD is warning against sending thanks to Ukraine saying that last time they did it namely in 41 45 he didn't end up very well and in France the people who call themselves anti-fashionists say no no because I mean no no because of the German past they must send the tanks because the new Hitler is of course Putin I mean it's completely ridiculous you know a long time ago the next communist told me that the problem with censorship if you censor all your this all your opponents

[13:36] then when you make a mistake there is nobody to tell you and that's exactly what the West is doing now by basically shutting down all the voices and I gave the example of RT ft was after the whole domain I I've known many journalism they just wanted to get give a job while giving alternative information like people do on the on smaller you know websites but then of course those people have to beg for money and they don't get paid and uh when you work for RT you

[14:07] could do the same work by you were being paid that's the difference but these people are not putting up all those I've known and have known several of them they were not like that well I mean when the problem I mean it's not about being pro-russia anti-russia pro why don't you just have a debate about the issues that's all I try to do on this program okay you can dissent all you want you can tell me anything you want we barring swearing at me and I don't really care because it's your

[14:37] opinion let me go to Joe Joe in Washington Alexandria excuse me um you know Joseph Burrell the vaunted uh EU foreign policy uh Chief um he said something very curious the last few days he said West has to support Ukraine and but respect Russia because Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler so that's why the Western support Ukraine I mean the the the lack of logic and clear thinking from these people is really

[15:08] astounding I mean their foreign policy Chief doesn't know his history very well that makes him you know a person to to talk about in entire blocks security future with its neighbor it's extraordinary the lack of Merit and competence these people have Joe yeah well sometimes these people that are held up in the media as being the great leaders are not very smart as you just pointed out but the ones who are smart know exactly what they're doing here and I think there are smart people yeah in the U.S leadership who know

[15:40] exactly what they're trying to do this is for the U.S the opportunity they've wanted ever since uh Putin came to power and Yeltsin was gone and they lost control of Russian uh Society finances resources this is what they want to get back again but we have to understand that the the leaders themselves may be self-deluded they they have created an incredible psyop and they may be victims of their own psyop and that's what is so frightening about this that the escalatory nature of the U.S position at

[16:12] the beginning it was Biden who said clearly uh we're not going to get NATO involved we're going to stop you won't be able to attack Crimea we're not going to send weapons that could reach into Russia this keeps changing and this is what's so worrying right now so that the ultimate scenario could happen would be the the ultimate end game which is the end of the world and I don't know whether this understanding isn't a person like analina bareback the foreign minister of Germany for example or even Joe Biden anymore I wonder if they would

[16:44] know the fire that they're playing with here and the only negotiation right now could stop this otherwise this could go on for years and if it goes on for years and it could lead as I say to the absolute greatest nightmare of History you know I saw John I saw John nodding his head there go ahead tell me why you're naughty when Joe was speaking go ahead well I I think Joe's right and you know I think that the West should pay very close attention to a tweet from former prime minister uh Medvedev on Friday and

[17:15] and a statement uh just yesterday or day before yesterday by the chairman of the Duma Russia will not lose this fight period this is an enormous country it's a nuclear power Ukraine is an existential threat we hear a lot of comparisons here in the United States to the U.S fights in Iraq and Afghanistan there's nothing similar there's nothing comparable between you the U.S and Afghanistan and Iraq and Russia and Ukraine and it's because Ukraine is

[17:45] directly on Russia's border it's an existential threat and because it's an existential threat Russia cannot and will not lose this fight I think that's something that the West just simply doesn't understand and appreciate yeah because they're they're they're they're they're blinded by their own ideology about their own um moral virtue it's really bizarre when they're putting the entire fate of humanity uh uh uh based on their self-perception of their virtue versus

[18:16] to the other meaning the Russia or I mean you could go back to Burrell the garden and every in the jungle okay that's how these people think very neocolonial in a way Sean you know we're talking uh unfortunately in some sense apocalyptically here but before we get that the U.S pays almost nothing it's not losing troops it's making a armed sales left right and center and Europe is paying the price on almost every single way I mean we talk about and and I I'm I

[18:48] it's true truly saddens me the suffering of Ukrainian people because this conflict should have been avoided it was avoidable um but I I but I love Europe just as much and I just see Europe paying the cost here what you know the the Germans the French now we're announcing 40 percent increase in defense spending yeah well you had your welfare state because you didn't have to spend so much on the military okay that's all going to go away your civil liberties are under challenge you've been talking about RT France here I mean you know for all

[19:19] Europe supportive of Ukraine what to get for it what's it get nothing but the intellectual and the journalistic class has been totally bought by the United States that what the girl was saying you know the goal said that the way the Americans do they give you a pack of uh whiskey bottles or they send you a seminar in the United States or a dinner in Paris or something like that and that's the way the corruption goes and the whole class has been corrupted beyond belief I am up to

[19:52] the debuffle to see how a case of impair this message used to say these people have become I mean they're completely case of the United States and it's all because its freedom is democracy and so on they don't inquire about any lack of democracy of freedom in the United States and they they are and I I I truly believe that politicians like shows and maybe are not as Extreme as they seem and they're not as Extreme as the media but they are constantly under pressure from the media or on the genes in Germany the

[20:24] greens are just unbelievable they are the most walleye party that you've ever seen in government well Sean you know I don't want to ask anybody their age on this program but I do remember when the greens were very very different in the 1980s okay we'll have to do a special program on that because I don't know what the hell happened to those people here but let me let me go to to Joe Jean brought up something I think that's really important um Sergeant Schultz as I refer to him on this program and macron they have it's

[20:54] very interesting I'm glad John brought this up because you know if you listen to them closely like on even days opposed to odd days they talk about after the conflict what has to happen and they get shut down immediate or in the same speech you'll see but we're 100 behind Ukraine you know whatever it takes but both of them are actually thinking about after the conflict which is very interesting to me and they have their eye on Washington at the same time Joe go ahead well they these are the two who could have provided the Vogue leadership that

[21:25] was needed to avoid this conflict and instead they uh as Jean pointed out they get brow beaten they get bright I'm not saying McConnell and and uh Schultz were bride but that is the European political class this was Europe's chance also to be independent of both Russia and China and the United States to stand on its own and they blew it as well they have become more and more of a vassal of the United States than ever before and this is one of the great tragedies that we've seen on falling up to the point where

[21:57] their own interests the interest of their own people they have to win elections are being hurt so badly it started way back in 2014 when Germany was forced by the U.S to put sanctions on on Russia back then and the German businessmen went crazy they didn't want it then and Merkel went along and did it anyway because the Americans wanted to and they were listening to her telephone so she probably knew that so I mean it is a tragedy all across the board here and unfortunately uh and this conversation hasn't changed my mind one bit I don't see any way out of this I only see things getting much more

[22:30] frightening and more dangerous every day this conflict goes on I I agree with you and and and John you know you know being an American Living in America the the have we reached a peak uh zielinski yet because I mean it's it's truly extraordinary I've never we thought you know we thought the you know the drive to the Iraq War was like you know the the greatest propaganda Gambit of all time this has to take the cake I mean it's extraordinary when I talk to people

[23:00] the lack of knowledge we have you know when the catastrophe hits no one in America or virtually no one in America is going to know why go ahead John Peter you can buy zelinski action figures in stores now that's how we've reached the point of of ridiculousness that you can buy a zelinski action figure to have as a souvenir um you know one of the things that has surprised me from the very beginning of this conflict is that so few Americans

[23:31] recognized what was behind it the United States cannot maintain its its International hegemony when there's a strong Russia and a strong China it would have to destroy one in order to focus on the other and I think that's what we're seeing here this is an attempt by the United States and its NATO allies to destroy Russia or to bog Russia down over the long term in a war that was slowly bleeded so that the United States

[24:02] can then focus on uh confronting China that's why we saw uh Nancy Pelosi go to Taiwan with no complaints well and John and John and please his way here gentlemen that's all all the time we have here but I'll make my prediction at the very end being the host of the program the end is the end of NATO and that'll be a good thing okay I want to thank my guests in Washington Alexandria and in Paris
