Title: CIA Whistleblower John Kiriakou REVEALS ALL on US-Israel All
Show: Afshin Rattansi's Going Underground
Date: 2025-12-15
URL: https://youtu.be/9jbpBecvpQ0
Duration: 28:00

---

[00:07] [music] I'm Ashan Ratansi [music] and welcome back to Going Underground broadcasting all around the world including right across India from the UAE. 14 years to the day that the USA officially declared its illegal invasion of Iraq over as it continued to kill, wound or displace countless Afghans for the next decade. This was during a period when the world now knows the CIA ran a global torture program at so-called black sites. We know about the torture program because of the CIA's John Kiryaku who when he

[00:38] blew the whistle was rewarded with a prison sentence. This of course is the CIA that is associated with countless assassinations and anti-democratic violence all around the world since it was set up in 1947. Today, the CIA under Trump's John Ratcliffe is intricately involved in Gaza via links to Mossad in Aman. In Ukraine, it trained Zalinski's intel chief. And Venezuela, where Trump has openly boasted of his authorization of a CIA backed coup. John Kiryaku, a veteran of counterterror in Bahrain, Greece, Pakistan, and Langley, and the

[01:09] State Department, now hosts the podcast Deep Focus, and he joins me from Washington, DC. John, thanks so much for coming back. It's been quite a few years since you've been on. I think going underground was one of the first programs when you came out of jail that you came on. Now everyone wants to hear from you. Why Why is it now Tucker Carlson wants to hear from you and different people want to hear from you when you came on Going Underground what nearly 10 years ago, nine years ago, no one was interested in your story.

[01:40] >> No. You know, it's funny. I I really believed at the time that the country would finally come around to my way of thinking on this issue and it appears that that's what what has happened. Torture is wrong. It's wrong under any circumstances. It's not patriotic. It's a criminal act. And finally, a majority of the American people agree with me. >> So that's progress at least. I'm not sure whether you caught our episode with the former Tel Aviv uh CIA chief of station Susan Miller. She was saying

[02:12] that uh there's no way the CIA has been involved in drug trafficking before I reminded her about in Iran Contra. Why does the CIA drug traffic and continue to do so arguably? I mean Candace Owens has now been talking about it with respect to the Charlie Kirk assassination. Why is the CIA intimately involved with drug trafficking? >> Because trafficking and drugs allows them to get closer to the targets they want to get closer to. There's a popular Netflix uh television series called

[02:44] Narcos. And Narcos is is based on the true story of the hunt for Pablo Escobar, the hunt for the Cali cartel, the hunt for one of the Mexican cartels. And over the course of three seasons, every time the Drug Enforcement Administration gets close to its primary target, the CIA station chief steps in and ruins the investigation. That is true. That happens in real life because the CIA doesn't care about drugs. It cares about terrorism. It

[03:15] cares about communism for what that's worth. There's always some other bigger ism that the CIA is concerned about. And so it was perfectly happy to allow cocaine to flood into the United States in the 1980s during the Iran Contra affair, just as it was perfectly happy to allow Afghanistan to provide 93% of the world's heroin once the United States began its occupation of Afghanistan. >> Yeah. You said that the CIA was uh intimately involved in spreading that uh

[03:46] those drugs from Afghanistan. You know, uh, you're quoting Netflix makes me think of this Financial Times headline. I can see which side you're on. Paramount gate crashes Netflix deal for Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers associated with a chief propaganda outlet CNN, of course. Um, how important? I mean, you're you're on Netflix's side there with that program Naros, but I don't expect if they take over Warner Brothers that CNN would suddenly tell us about CIA covert ops. How important uh does the CIA feel that

[04:19] soft power through Hollywood, through television programs, they've already got the media captive arguably. How important does the CIA see that as important? >> Critically important to the point where the CIA has set up a branch within the Office of Public Affairs whose job it is solely to cooperate with Hollywood studios. Just like the FBI has been doing since the 1950s, the CIA works with Hollywood Studios to make sure that everything that comes out of Hollywood has a pro-CIA message. You know,

[04:52] technically it's illegal for the CIA to propagandize the American people. But that's what happens every time a CIA related film is released. It's propaganda. Indeed, the movie Zero Dark 30 broke all kinds of laws. the the director Katherine Bigalow and the uh writer Mark Bull were given classified briefings over a classified mockup of the Osama bin Laden compound. Uh they were given classified briefings by CIA counterterrorism center analysts and in

[05:23] exchange they gave those analysts watches and free tickets to the premiere of the film. Well, they should all be in prison for that. Technically that's a violation of the Espionage Act. Instead, the film was celebrated as a as a victory at the CIA. >> And we've seen how actors are now on a blacklist if they've expressed support for uh Palestine. Uh now, >> that's right. >> So that uh so that they can't work again. But then, ironically, regarding the Warner Brothers deal and uh all

[05:54] related to Larry Ellison, of course, and uh the Trump family, why do they need to be so open about trying to take over the corporate news when arguably the news stations have all been paths for CIA covert ops for decades since their inception? Why are they why do they need extra control? Is it the Gaza genocide that has made them more aware? I think that's probably a part of it, but I I think the real reason is a little bit more crass. Uh and that is

[06:24] just uh billions and billions of dollars in profits. Essentially, the entire American media is run by six corporations or oligarchs. Uh now it's going to be five. And so the only place you can go is independent media. But so few Americans have the time or the inclination to seek out independent media. They just sit in front of the television, turn on CNN or MSNBC, now it's called MS Now or Fox News, and they think they're being uh they're being

[06:56] educated. In fact, they're not. They're being propagandized. >> And uh I suppose you'd say your new podcast, Deep Focus, is going to set all that straight to an extent. I mean, Miller, as I say, Susan Miller, the former CIA chief of Station, she does did seem as outraged as I think you have been about Trump's ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabe, inviting Jonathan Pollard into your embassy in Israel. Clear that uh clear that the United States knows

[07:27] that there is no ceasefire. Why does the media I mean here's a headline from the Middle East from here in Dubai. No true second phase while Israel continues violations. It's bombing Lebanon. Israel hit says bullet targets in Lebanon. So so it says here in Gulf News in Dubai. They know that. Why is it that they take the line from Huckabe I suppose as the representative in the Middle East that there is a ceasefire at all? I say at every opportunity in every

[07:58] interview that I can get myself scheduled on that there is no peace deal. There is not even a ceasefire, at least not a well-maintained one. Maybe the Amiradis are happy. Maybe the cutteries are happy, the Bahrainis, even the Saudis, but the Palestinians certainly are not happy because dozens of them still continue to die every day. and Israel continues to bomb southern Lebanon as well as Syria, southwestern Syria. Um, Mike Huckabe was a was a

[08:29] popular governor of a small, lightly populated state. He thinks that he's still governor and that he can make these decisions independently of the State Department or the National Security Council. He can't and he needs to be reprimanded for not falling into line. But more than that, I went on Twitter and said that I believed quite strongly Huckabe should be forced to resign solely for inviting Jonathan Pard

[09:00] uh to a private meeting in the American embassy. Jonath Jonathan Pard is a traitor to the United States. He has called for the use of Israeli nuclear weapons against the United States. He has called on every American Jew with a security clearance to spy for Israel against the United States. And he's fetted at the American embassy and treated like a VIP visitor. I I was so outraged that I thought when I first read the report that it was it was a

[09:32] joke, that somebody was just playing a joke, but unfortunately it wasn't a joke. and and for that serious um violation of well not just protocol but common sense Mike Huckabe should resign. >> Is Mike Huckabe a traitor to the United States of America? And are there people in the CIA do you think who uh want him gone now? >> My guess would be that everybody at the CIA wants him gone for this? No, I don't

[10:02] think he's a traitor against the United States. And excuse me for being blunt. I think he's an idiot and he just didn't think that this was any big deal. >> That's that's being kind. You're famous, of course, for exposing US torture programs. I mean, now that we get more and more revelations of the way Israel has been torturing Palestinians during the genocide, it continues to torture doctors in the Middle East. Was it Mossad teaching the CIA or the CIA teaching Mossad and Aman how to torture

[10:35] uh people, how to break uh all uh all four Geneva conventions, the article three of the four Geneva Conventions, >> as awful as it might sound, they were two independent programs running parallel with each other. Uh while the while the CIA was was developing its own torture program, I never saw an Israeli. I never heard reference to an Israeli. I never saw anything about Israelis in the in the reporting cables. Uh what the United States did was was that it outsourced torture to two sick

[11:08] psychologists, contract psychologists who reverse engineered the US Air Force's SER training so that they could exert the most amount of pressure, the most amount of force and pain frankly on uh on prisoners. The Israelis don't follow anybody's rules. The United States did this dance back in 200 uh late 2001 and early 2002 where they went to the CIA general counsel, then they went to the Justice Department's Office

[11:39] of Legal Counsel, then they went to the general counsel of the National Security uh uh council and they at least pretended that they needed legal cover to allow themselves to do this. the the Israelis just go in with guns blazing. >> But so clear that the CIA knows that the Israelis are torturing people. I mean, Susan Miller said that the um chief of station of CIA's office always knew that they had to clear things with Mossad before operating, which seems like a

[12:09] bizarre relationship. So bizarrely, has it become permissible, openly permissible all these years after your revelations of US torture during the so-called war and terror? You know, I'm I'm sorry to tell you that my revelations had a great impact on paper. Uh my revelations were what led to passage of the McCain Feinstein amendment that banned torture in the United States. But it did nothing to put

[12:40] pressure on our allies like Israel to stop torture or to dial back the torture. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if another whistleblower were to come out and say, "Well, yeah, we don't torture, but we still render prisoners to countries that do torture." And then we pay subsidies to those countries intelligence services to pri to provide us with the information that the prisoner uh finally gives. With Israel, it's it's an even stranger relationship.

[13:13] The United States does not spy on Israel, period. It just does not. And it operates in Israel only with the permission of the Mossad. It's a very strange relationship. It's not a terribly friendly one. It's proper. It's it's formal, but not friendly. And the US does nothing inside Israel without the Mossad's permission. John Keryaku, I'll stop you there. More from the CIA veteran and whistleblower after this break.

[13:56] Welcome back to Going Underground. I'm still here with the CIA veteran and whistleblower John Kiryaku. John, in part one, at the end of part one, you were talking about uh torture and the relationship between the United States and Israel. I don't know what we were to expect from uh Donald Trump and what you think of John Ratcliffe in particular because lots of the MAGA base are saying there's uh been no arrests for the Russia collusion hoax, no arrests for those trying to talk up January 6th, no arrests for the Biden auto pen, no

[14:28] arrests for uh obviously the Jeffrey Epstein case, no arrests regarding the COVID behavior of uh the government, the Biden government and no arrest for uh uh things like even the Hunter Biden situation and the laptop. What What is the Trump administration doing? And is it a case of Donald Trump not being in control of his administration and behind the scenes the same old uh uh policy is being enacted? >> I I don't think so. I think what what

[15:00] you just mentioned this this laundry list of uh of issues of problems uh points to the strength the power the entrenchment of the deep state. Donald Trump I think really wants to get to the bottom of so many of these scandals that took place under both the Biden administration and the Obama administration but >> and and his and his administration >> and his own and his own administration. But for the most part, judges are stopping him from going forward. I have to agree with you that that the fact

[15:30] that John Brennan has not been charged with a crime is deeply disturbing to me. It seems to me like it would be actually rather easy to charge John Brennan, at least with conspiracy, maybe even sedicious conspiracy, which is a very grave crime. But I think the information is clear, the evidence is clear that John Brennan tried to deny the American people their choice for president of the United States in 2016. And he did it by pointing the finger at Russia. He did it by by loudly

[16:02] proclaiming proclaiming, excuse me, that the Hunter Biden laptop was a Russian disinformation operation. It was not. It was Hunter Biden's laptop. He said so himself. Um, so where are the charges? If they can throw a charge at at former FBI Director Comey, for example, even though it's been dismissed, it should be easy to file charges against John Brennan. There's an old saying here in the United States that a grand jury would indict a bologn sandwich. Okay,

[16:34] let the indictments come, then let him defend himself. Indeed, that's what he said about me. He wrote a he wrote a letter to former uh Attorney General Eric Holder saying, "Charge him with espionage." Holder wrote a letter back saying, "My people don't think he committed espionage." And then Brennan wrote back and said, "Charge him anyway and make him defend himself. That's exactly what they did to me." And then on the day that I that I declared bankruptcy, they dropped the espionage charges. Well, I I was innocent of

[17:05] espionage. He certainly appears to be guilty of conspiracy. Where are the charges? >> Can you sue him with President Trump? Then you should get on the phone to the White House. You can do a joint case. >> I'm I'm trying. Believe me. Believe me. >> But but there are forces there perhaps. I mean, symptomatic of this is uh I mean the confusion in the so-called liberal media there. Who is responsible for the president's war off the coast of Venezuela? this uh in the Ssberger's uh

[17:37] New York Times clear that Rubio and Ratcliffe have some kind of wing there within the Trump administration and uh Rubio is going to need something more to uh get his uh invasion of Venezuela through despite the um reservations of the MAGA base. Uh is the is it the case that there's there is this separation in the Trump administration? No indictment, no arrest and jailing uh of uh Brennan and uh no

[18:10] uh no America first policy. >> It sure seems that way. And and what you're describing is is really very much a war within the Republican party. You know, the neoconservatives who were who were in charge during the George W. Bush administration and who were personified by John McCain and Lindsey Graham to a lesser extent are making a comeback right now. And Donald Trump seems to be a little bit confused as to what exactly he wants his legacy to be. Does he want

[18:42] it to be the America first anti-forign intervention uh policy that he's espoused all these years or is he going to go back to the George W. Bush let's invade everybody policy? I've said many times that if you want to know what American military intentions are, watch naval movements. This is something that I learned at the CIA. We can yell and scream and point the finger and tell countries we're going to invade them, but we're not unless we send enough

[19:14] naval assets [clears throat] to um to cover what's needed in terms of supply. aircraft carriers, an aircraft carrier battle group, for example, it has 11 support ships, battleships, troop transports, supply ships, and of course, the aircraft carrier itself is full of fighter jets. So, if if the United States is serious about doing something, it's going to send an aircraft carrier battle group. And indeed, what did it do? It sent the USS Gerald R. Ford

[19:46] aircraft carrier battle group to the coast of Venezuela. So, which Donald Trump are we going to see? Are we going to see the America First non-intervention Donald Trump or the neocon Donald Trump? And the truth of the matter is we're not at war with Venezuela. Venezuela hasn't done anything to us. They haven't attacked us. These drugs that we're supposedly destroying or intercepting or whatever aren't even meant uh for the United States. They're meant for Western Europe. And they're not Venezuelan drugs. Venezuela is the

[20:17] trans shipment point for drugs coming from Colombia, Peru, and Ecuador. So, I just don't see why this president especially is considering a war of choice, but on par, you think he's probably not. I mean, this is being recorded uh beforehand, so there might have been a invasion he could have declared because he has that battle group there. uh by the time this interview is uh broadcast and certainly uh one element of having that kind of

[20:49] flirtatilla in place they can't be there for very long without the the needing to be resupplied by more ships. I mean what why do you think what does the CIA think do you think about why they've failed in Latin America time after time after time uh in uh of course in in Nicaragua and uh and in Cuba and in so many other countries in Latin America they have failed to overthrow countries let alone a country the size of Venezuela

[21:21] >> for decades and it's because of this belief at the CIA it's a very deeply held belief that we are the good guys and as soon as we cross that border, people are going to throw flowers at us. And of course, that's that's laughably laughably wrong. There's no understanding of history. There's no understanding of the societies and the cultures of these countries. They don't want us there. And at the CIA, they just don't understand. Now, in their defense,

[21:51] the CIA is not a policy um agency. It's a policy support agency. So, just like with the invasion of Iraq, if the White House says do it, you have to do it, even if you're opposed to it on philosophical grounds. But you're right, the CIA, the American government in general, just never seems to learn the lesson of invasions gone bad. It's easy to invade a country. It's easy to overthrow its government. It's exceedingly difficult to take care of things the day after. And one thing

[22:23] about Venezuela too, as I just said, it would be easy to overthrow the government. We've already essentially told Maduro, "Just get on your plane and run away. Go to Doha, go to Havana, go to Moscow. Just get on the plane and run away." The the president's president Maduro, his private pilot said just a few weeks ago that the CIA had approached him to try to recruit him. So in the event that Madora were to run away, instead of landing in Havana, he

[22:55] would land in Miami thinking it was Havana and we could take him off the plane and charge him with drug trafficking. The president just a couple of weeks ago went on national television and said that he had signed a covert action program. Let me tell you, there is nothing that the CIA does that is more highly classified than a covert action program. This was the first time in American history that a president ever announced one as he was signing it. The point being to put so much pressure

[23:25] on Maduro that he just gets up and runs away. So to overthrow him, what do you need to do? You need to secure the presidential palace. You need to take over the radio and television stations. You need to control the major intersections in Karacas. But most importantly, you need to have the military on your side. And the Venezuelan military is on the side of President Maduro. >> Yeah. And uh I mean they've tried against Cuba. It's not even easy to overthrow them, arguably. Let's get to uh Europe. The CIA, according to the New

[23:57] York Times, has 12 spy bases on the Russian border. And of course, we know the CIA trained the intelligence chief of Zalinski. Do you believe that John Radcliffe is uh overseeing the intel for Zilinski despite Trump saying he's this neutral arbiter? Is the CIA completely under effectively genocide Joe Biden's policy and not the Trump administrations? What's the CIA doing with its 12 spy bases in Ukraine?

[24:29] >> I think that Donald Trump genuinely wants to see an end to this conflict. I really do. But I think he also has been convinced to keep all these CIA bases open until a peace deal is signed. I think Ratcliffe probably has lobbyed him and probably quite hard not to hamstring CIA operations until the deal is done and we can withdraw CIA personnel. >> What happens when Russian troops

[25:00] overtake the bases? What happens when they take the bases? Well, we've always had a gentleman's agreement with the uh the Russians that we don't uh harm or interfere with their people and they won't harm and interfere with our people. You know, I remember when re reading reports uh from the murder of the CIA station chief in Athens, uh Dick Welch on December 23rd, 1975, the very first cable that we received was from Moscow. And it was the KGB saying, "We promise it wasn't us."

[25:33] When John F. Kennedy was killed on November 22nd, 1963, the very first message that the CIA received was from the KGB saying, "We promise it wasn't us." There's this gentleman's agreement that has always been respected. So, sure, they might overrun CIA bases and they'll likely expel those CIA officers, but I wouldn't expect much more. Yeah, I'm not sure whether they're gentlemen, but we're running out of time. And I better ask you, when it comes to lobbying President Trump in in the White

[26:05] House, I mean, we had Ben Manashe, the former Israeli intelligence translator, saying that uh the ghost of Jeffrey Epstein effectively is blackmailing Trump. He does seem uh awfully uh angry uh with Marjorie Taylor Green or completely out of proportion on this issue of the Epstein Files. What's your take on why he's been so reluctant to keep his promise to release unredacted despite Congress's uh recent uh change of mind the Epstein files?

[26:39] >> I think that we had a hint of what the truth was when Elon Musk said as he was leaving government that Donald Trump was all over his words all over the Epstein files. And I think Trump probably didn't think that he would be or didn't realize that he was when he was making the promise to release all of the unredacted files. I have to tell you, I'm not sanguin that we'll ever see these files because this is not a partisan issue.

[27:09] There are Democratic perverts just like there are Republican perverts and there are a lot of them in positions of very uh important uh power. And so I think that I think that they are going to work together to kill this information, to disappear the information. Marjgery Taylor Green is right. Uh Donald Trump said that he would release it. He should release it. This is what the MAGA base wanted. But I think Trump believes that
