Title: credits \"Steven Bartlett\" — likely mislabeled re-upload
Show: The Honest Talk
Date: 2026-01-22
URL: https://youtu.be/CxG3Nosbl1s
Duration: 20:00

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[00:00] that I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program in a nationally televised interview with ABC News. The second reason is I blew the whistle a long time ago and just in the past 18 months I seem to have hit some sort of YouTube algorithm sweet spot and all of a sudden my message is getting out there. >> And you went to prison for blowing the whistle. I did and I would do it again tomorrow. I really would. You know, I

[00:32] was I was giving an interview to the BBC the day after I got out of prison. They were the first uh outlet to ask for an interview. And so I gladly gave it to them. And the interviewer said kind of perturbedly, "You're not showing any remorse or contrition." And I said, "No, I'm not remorseful. I'm not contrite. I would do it again. I would let them send me to prison again because it was the right

[01:02] thing to do. >> And you were a spy in the CIA. >> Yeah, I was quite an accomplished spy in the CIA. I spent 15 years in the CIA. The first half of my career was in analysis and uh and I got bored, frankly. And so I made an unusual at the time change to counterterrorism operations. And then I was the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after the 9/11 attacks. >> And if I'd never heard about the CIA before and I had never heard about your

[01:33] role in the CIA before and I was a 16-year-old, >> right? >> How would you explain to me what you did there, what your role was and what the CIA is? >> Sure. The CIA is an intelligence service whose job it is at its most basic level to recruit spies to steal secrets and to analyze those secrets so that the policymakers can make the best informed policy. After 9/11, we were expecting an

[02:03] attack, to use Osama bin Laden's words, that would dwarf 911. And so my job was to infiltrate al-Qaeda by recruiting members of al-Qaeda to tell us when and where that next attack was going to come so that we could disrupt it. We could kill or capture the leadership and destroy the organization. >> And give me a range of the things that you did during your time in the CIA just

[02:34] for a very topline range of the types of things you worked on. Oh, sure. Um, as an analyst, it was actually quite straightforward. Uh, we would write for the president, the vice president, the secretaries of state and defense, and the national security adviser. >> And who were the presidents during that time? >> Uh, when I started, it was George HW Bush, the father, and then it was Bill Clinton, then George W. Bush. There are several different publications. There's the president's daily brief, which is the most important. I covered Iraq the

[03:06] entire time that I was in analysis from well before most Americans had ever heard of Iraq. I was told actually that it was a training account because nothing ever happened there. Nothing ever changed. And then Iraq invaded Kuwait. The next day I got to the office early. I was 25 years old, 26 years old. And uh my boss said, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to the White House." I had never

[03:36] been to the White House before except as a tourist. And so we got in a car, went to the White House. We're ushered into the Oval Office. It's the president, the vice president, the national security adviser, the director of the CIA, my boss, and me. And then we all sit down. The president tells us, "Sit down." We sit down and the president says,"Well, now what do we do?" And everybody turns and looks at me. And it took me a second. And I said, "Uh, yes." I said,

[04:08] "Mr. President, as you know, Iraqi troops crossed the border at 2:00 this morning. They the royal family has uh has run away to uh Saudi Arabia. They've named a new occupation governor, etc., etc. Do we know who that is?" I said, "Yes, sir." I gave him the name and I said, "Actually, he uh he's the co-founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." The vice president shouts, "Jesus Christ." And then the president says, "Gentlemen, thank you. Thank you. We'll take it from here." And I remember saying to myself,

[04:40] "My friends would never believe in a thousand years what I was doing right now. They wouldn't even believe me if I told them." That's what an analyst does. When I switched to operations again, the the job was very straightforward. It was to recruit spies to steal secrets. But then if you're involved in counterterrorism operations, there are a lot of extras that you have to be trained in. So you go through the normal spy training. This is how you ingratiate yourself. It's something called the asset acquisition cycle. Spot, assess,

[05:12] develop, recruit. I meet you at a cocktail party. You seem like a nice guy. I introduce myself. I ask, "Uh, so what do you do for a living?" Well, if you tell me you manage a shoe store, I'm going to say, "Well, it was very nice meeting you," and I'm going to go on to the next guy. But if you tell me you work at the port, you work in the Ministry of Defense, you work in the Chinese embassy, I'm going to invite you to lunch. I've spotted you. I've assessed you. And my assessment is I'd like to get to know

[05:43] you. Then I begin to develop you. I'll give you an example. I was in Pakistan. I got a tip that uh that al-Qaeda, a group of mid-level al-Qaeda fighters was meeting every single day in a coffee shop at 10:00 in the morning. My Arabic was absolutely flawless at the time. And so I had a bushy beard that I grew for operational reasons. >> Can I hear some of your Arabic? >> Yeah. It's nice to meet you. Or

[06:16] Alhamdulillah. Uh, so I uh I bought an Arabic newspaper and I went to the coffee shop and I just sat there and sure enough at 10:00 the four of them came in. One of them looked at me and I looked at him and that was it. We made eye contact. I did that for a week. The second week I was there drinking my coffee, sitting with my Arabic newspaper, and the one who had looked at me the week before, he nodded. So I

[06:47] nodded back. That was it. No communication otherwise. The third week, I'm a regular now. He recognizes me. So he says to me, "Salamlaykum." I said, "Walaykum salsalam. May peace be upon you." And I say, "And upon you peace." One day he came in alone. And I said, "Please have a seat. Sit with me. No sense in you sitting alone and me sitting alone." So he sat down. We started talking. And um I asked him how long he had been in Pakistan. He said,

[07:18] "Oh, I've been here for 5 years. I was in Afghanistan. I was making jihad against the Americans." And I said, "Oh, that must have been hell on earth." He said, "Oh." He said that the bombing of Tora was hideous. That was the word that he used. It was hideous. And I said, "And what about your family? How's your family?" He said, "My wife and and son and daughter are in Cairo. I've never met my son. He was born just after I left to make jihad." I said, "I'm so sorry." And he said, "Yes, I'm I'm

[07:49] lonely and I I want to go home." And we continued this relationship. And finally, I said to him, "Let me take you to dinner. Let's get out of the coffee shop." The truth was I didn't want one of his friends to walk in and see us. So, we went to a restaurant for dinner and I said, "Listen, there's something that I haven't been truthful with you about. I'm not Lebanese." And I said, "Actually, I'm American. Are

[08:21] you okay with that?" And he says, "I think so." I said, 'Well, actually, I'm a CIA officer. And he says,"Okay." So, he didn't run screaming from the room or pull a gun or anything. And he said, "Why do you want me? Why do you want to talk to me?" I said, "Actually, you have access to something that I want." It was very specific. And I told him what it was. And he says, "And what will you do

[08:53] for me?" And I said, "Anything your heart desires." And he said, "I want to go home." I said, "I can do that." >> You wanted information presumably. >> I wanted information. Very specific information >> which you can't share. >> No. Now go right back to prison. So uh [laughter] so um we got him a passport. I bought him a first class ticket and I took him to the airport. gave him some cash to get himself started again.

[09:25] And I said, "Before you go, I have to ask you, why did you agree to give me this information? I mean, presumably I'm the enemy." And he said, "I've been here 5 years, and you're the first person who ever asked me about my family." So I said, "Best of luck. Never saw him again." That's the job >> I have to ask you. >> Mhm. Take me on the journey of you being a young man

[09:55] >> in West Pennsylvania, >> right, >> to becoming a spy. What happened? Because I'll be I'll be honest, you know, I don't really know what my perception of spies is, but it's not you. >> That's good. >> Yeah, >> that's good. See, because I kind of work under the radar. M so that's really interesting is I [laughter] there's there's so many um once you learn about spies as a podcast like so if you go back a couple of years and someone had told me about spies I wouldn't have believed them I wouldn't have believed

[10:26] that these things actually happened. Oh yeah. >> You know, you hear about people going undercover >> and going to other countries and getting secrets and and all of these things. >> And it's not until you meet the people that said, "Yes, that's me. I used to do that." That you're sort of you have this paradigm shift in your mind and you go, "Oh my god, what else might be going on?" >> Right? >> Because I lived in this world probably up until the age of, I don't know, 30 years old where I kind of just assume things are what they are >> like as I see them. And then, you know, you start to discover that there's

[10:56] layers of secrecy. Nations are against each other. They're doing all of these covert operations. >> And even like as a podcaster now, I have moments where I go like, "How do I know that you're not you're not here to steal secrets from me?" >> Right? >> So, you know what's funny? When I had Andrew Bustamante on the show, the comment sections are always the same. They're always like, "Once a CIA spy, always a CIA spy." >> I hate when people say that. It's so intellectually lazy. >> But I just I do wonder and I go, "Okay, here's a super conspiracy theory. What

[11:27] if the CIA have made spies do really well in the YouTube algorithm so that all of us as long form podcasters invite them on and then they >> You know what? I would agree with that. I would have agreed with that a year ago because Andrew Bamante has really made a handsome living out of selling his experience and he's on every podcast. >> Yeah. But I am the most anti-CIA former CIA person that's out there.

[11:57] >> But wouldn't that be the perfect CIA agent? >> I mean, if if I weren't constantly criticizing the CIA as a as a an organization that's just out of control. >> Do you think the CIA are have a strategy for podcasters and for podcasting? >> I think yes, now they do. It took them a little while to to get current, but just like they over time developed a strategy with Hollywood, sure, they're developing a strategy with podcasters. You know, it was only in the last 10 years that the

[12:30] CIA opened a branch within the Office of Public Affairs whose job it is solely to lies with Hollywood studios. The FBI's been doing this since the since the 40s. And the goal is that everything that comes out of Hollywood should be pro- CIA and you know we end up with with Zero Dark 30 and you know the recruit and the CIA Argo the CIA is always the hero in these movies. >> If you were still at the CIA now and your job was to in infiltrate and

[13:03] uh use creators or podcasters as an asset for the CIA's objectives. How might you design that plan? If we were just hypothesizing, you would have to have a goal that would be specific enough that you could actually track the progress to it. So, you can't just say, "Well, I'm gonna pay this podcaster x amount of money, and we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do something with the algorithm to make

[13:33] him vastly popular among men, you know, 18 to 30, let's say. There's got to be more to it than that. It has to be a message. You've got to be able to get a specific, well-honed message out there. And the message can be anything. It could be, you know, love the CIA. We're the good guys. It could be support the overthrow of the Iranian government. It could be, you know, any criticism of

[14:04] Benjamin Netanyahu is anti-semitism. It could be anything you want it to be. You just have to make sure that it's repeated enough. See, this was the danger with the torture program. This is one of the very important reasons that I went public when I did because my colleagues, my superiors at the CIA kept repeating this lie over and over and over again that torture worked and that torture got us information that saved American lives. And that was just simply not true. It was a lie. Besides being

[14:36] illegal, immoral, unethical, it just wasn't true. And so I decided before we go down this road anymore, I'm going to go public. >> So can you take me back then? We got a little bit sidetracked there, but >> Sure. >> John, how did you come to be a CIA spy? >> When I was 9 years old, I told my parents that I wanted to be a spy when I grew up. it came time to apply for college and I only applied at one university, George Washington University

[15:08] in Washington because it was two blocks from the White House and it was one of only three schools in America that offered a Middle Eastern studies program. I was one of only four people in that brand new Middle Eastern studies program. I stayed for a master's degree in legislative affairs with a focus on foreign policy analysis. I was taking a class in that program called the psychology of leadership. It was taught by an eminent psychiatrist named Dr. Gerald Post and he gave us an assignment

[15:42] one uh one day where we had to shadow our bosses. We had to just follow our bosses for a week. >> Your bosses? >> Yeah. I worked at a labor union called the United Food and Commercial Workers Union. And so we were just supposed to follow our boss around for a week and then write a psychological profile. I used dozens of, you know, footnotes from psychological, you know, psychology texts and I ended up saying that he was a sociopath with psychopathic and possibly violent tendencies and, you

[16:13] know, I had these citations. I passed the paper in. Dr. Post gives it back to me a week later, gave me an A, and then he wrote, "Please see me after class." So I went up to him after the class and I said, "Dr. Post, you wanted to see me." He says, "Come to my office." So we went down there. He closed the door and he says, "Listen, I'm not really a professor here. I'm a CIA officer undercover as a professor here, and I'm looking for people who would fit into the CIA's culture. I

[16:45] think you would fit into the CIA's culture. Would you like to be a spy? And I said, "Yes, I would." He picked up the phone and called a number and he said, "Bob, this is Jerry. I've got a good one for you. Do you have some time?" And he said, "Sure." He writes an address on a scrap of paper and he says, "Be at this address in 20 minutes." It was only one subway stop away. So, I jumped on the metro. I went to Rosland, Virginia, just

[17:17] across the river. I had to buzz to be led in. And a woman opens the door. She says, "Are you here for Bob?" And I said, "Yes." She says, "Come on in." I'm sitting there for a moment and then this like 6'6, 350 lb giant barrels out of his office and he says, "John Bob, how the hell are you? I want you to be at the George Washington University Medical School Saturday morning at 8:00. We've got some tests for you. I said, "Okay." And then

[17:47] we shook hands and I left. So Saturday morning, I went to the GW Medical School auditorium. There were like I don't know 200 people there and they hand us a test. My wife picked me up. She said, "How did you do?" I said, "I have no idea." >> Does your wife at this point know that you're applying for the CIA? >> Yes. And that was going to be pretty much the extent of what she ended up knowing cuz once I got in. >> But you weren't allowed to tell her. >> I was not allowed to tell her. No.

[18:18] >> So you told her anyway? >> Yeah. When I first applied, they said, "Listen, don't tell anybody because you may go under cover. You may go under deep cover. And we can't have people out there who know that you're a CIA officer." >> Presumably, the CIA is smart enough to be able to check if you've told her. Yeah. And they ask you on the polygraph, "Did you tell her?" >> Really? >> And I said, "Yeah, I told her." She's my wife. What am I going to do? You know, but it got to the point where I'd get home from a day where, you know, I broke

[18:49] into some guy's house and and planted a camera on a bug. And I'd get home and she'd say, "How was your day?" I'd say, "Great. What'd you do?" Not a darn thing. And then my phone would ring at, you know, midnight and a guy would say, "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plane." And I'd say uh Marzy dots and dozy dots and little lambs Ivy and that means meet me at the yacht club parking lot in three hours. And then I'd leave. She's she would say, "Where are you going? It's midnight. I

[19:19] got to work." So I'd leave. I'd do my meeting. I'd come home 6:00 in the morning just in time to shower and shave and get dressed to go to work. And she would say, "What was her name?" And I I remember this one terrible time. That's what she said to me. What was her name? The truth is I had been sitting in a garbage dumpster waiting for a guy to drive by down the alley and throw a bag of documents in. And I stunk of garbage. And I said to her, "Do I seriously smell

[19:51] to you like I've been with a woman?" Seriously. So we ended up getting a divorce. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> So you do the assessment presumably you get in the training he he called me like two weeks later Bob did and he said you blew the doors off those tests. I said oh great okay so a month later they summoned me to headquarters and uh I was interviewed by the office

[20:22] of neareastern operations, the office of neareastern analysis and the office of leadership analysis. I was offered the analysis job on the Iraq desk.
