Title: The Honest Talk
Show: The Honest Talk
Date: 2026-01-25
URL: https://youtu.be/UQoQ1BC7FFA
Duration: 10:00

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[00:00] This is so much fun. They look so cute in their little tutus. And then I went to work one day and as I was walking in, he was walking in and I said, "Oh, come on, Peter." And he's like, "You know, I thought you were a spy." And I said, "I actually didn't think you were a spy." And he was just going for a liaison meeting. And we had a good chuckle about it. And I said, "Listen, don't tell anybody." Right. Right. Right. Right. Sorry. So, I'm trying to figure out how many

[00:31] how many spies do you think there are in the United States? If you think about >> foreign spies, >> foreign spies, domestic spies, people that are basically undercover, >> including Americans, you mean? >> Including Americans. >> The number of CIA employees is classified. The number of CIA employees undercover is actually even more highly classified. I can give you a guesstimate >> but also you know Russia, China. >> Yeah. 50 to 60,000 altogether. >> 50 to 60,000 in the United States.

[01:03] >> So by a couple of degrees of separation if you know a 100 people. >> Yeah. You're probably going to know one. >> Sure. >> You said there's probably about 50,000 in the United States. So I've just done some quick math on my notepad here. which means that in order to know one, [clears throat] you'd need to meet 6,600 people. >> Okay. >> Because the US population is roughly 330 million people. >> That's right. >> And I and then I did some other maths and did some research and I asked [laughter]

[01:33] um the question I was trying to figure out is how many people does the average person meet a year? >> And it's roughly about 3 to 10,000 people. >> [clears throat] >> So theoretically, >> so the chances are good >> every year. Statistically, according to my napkin math, you're meeting one of these undercover spies. One a year. >> There it is. >> Now, that number I gave you is I'm lumping like all CIA people and all

[02:06] foreign intelligence officers in the United States. >> Interesting. But again, if you work for an American defense company, Northrup, Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, any of them, your chances of encountering a foreign intelligence officer are even money. >> Can't you as a spy with the United States ask the United States to give you loads of money? Like, can't you say, "You really want me to go do that? Can I have a million dollars?" >> Cuz you're giving you're potentially

[02:36] giving away a lot of money to other >> Oh my god. giving away like unlimited amounts of money >> because your budget when you were a spy. How much was it >> after 911? It was unlimited. >> What does that mean? It means you can basically give away as much money as you need to. >> If I approach somebody and he says I can give you this terrorist. I want 10 million. I'm like [clears throat] done. >> What was the most you ever gave in >> 10 million? >> You gave someone 10 million for what? >> Abu Zabeda. >> Who's Abu Zabeda? We believed that Abu

[03:08] Zubeda was the number three in al-Qaeda. He wasn't the number three, but he was a very bad guy. I led the raids that captured Abu Zuba in Pakistan, Fisalabad Pakistan in March of 2002. And um the State Department had a $10 million reward. We ended up giving the 10 million to the Pakistani intelligence service. It wasn't >> a person >> a person. [clears throat] It was just really great analysis that led us to him. But there were others in the

[03:39] so-called war on terror who got more than 10 million and got it like within 24 hours. >> Individuals. >> How much? >> One got 25 million. >> Just a person. >> Uh-huh. And the thing is, you know, there's a lot of danger there. If you're a if you're a, you know, a shepherd or a tea boy

[04:09] and you make $40 a month and all of a sudden you have $25 million, something's up. >> And what was the 25 million for? >> It was for a very high ranking foreign terrorist who was brought to justice. I I can't I can't say because it was never publicly disclosed. But what we would have to do in a situation like that is

[04:41] we would have to tell the the source, you can't live here anymore. Pick a country and that's going to be home from now on. And then we go to that country and say, hey, can you do us a solid? We've got this guy who, you know, he really came through and he's not going to be a burden on your economy >> cuz he's got $25 million. >> Which country did he pick? >> Oh, I can't I can't tell you that. >> He wanted He wanted to stay in the region. He He wasn't willing to move to the United States, for example,

[05:12] >> cuz we're happy to take him. You're welcome to come to the United States. He's like, absolutely not. >> You went to Dubai. >> I would. >> Yeah. With the tax code. [laughter] Interesting. H I think I'm I think I'm Yeah, I'm You can tell my bias from the questions that I ask about the things that fascinate me about espionage and spies is just it's the un their understanding of human nature and what motivates us and the psychology of humans that you can learn from um spies and the nature of human

[05:45] beings I guess, >> right? And also, I guess the thing that really fascinates me is just I've had so many mind mind-blowing moments where I've learned just how fragile the reality that I believe is. Like I thought things were secure and I thought they were as they are, but >> right, >> it just doesn't appear to be that way. There appears to be lots of secrets. >> And you know, conspiracy theorists get a hard time, but actually the more I've done this as a job, the more I go, hm, conspiracy theorists are right more than I expected them. And that's an important

[06:16] point. I [sighs] >> I hate conspiracy theories that run a muck, but you know, the the the a former CIA director is the one who came up with the term conspiracy theory. >> And it was it was a way for the CIA to discredit people by making them sound like crazy people when in fact there was such a thing called MK Ultra. There was such a thing called, you know, operation grasshopper or or MK Chickwit or, you

[06:47] know, the CIA did crazy crazy stuff from roughly 1952 to 1975. For example, they um experimented with a a virus that they that they released in San Francisco. They waited for an unusually foggy, like heavily foggy day. They released it into the atmosphere just to see if it would make people sick. And 11 people went to the emergency room with this rare upper

[07:18] respiratory infection. And then they were like, you know, high fives. Yeah, it works. And then they they started experimenting with LSD. LSD was a big thing at the CIA in the early days. We were convinced. See, and this this is this is where counter intelligence is important. The Chinese told us in like 1951 that the Russians were using LSD to try

[07:49] to engineer it to be used as a mind control drug. That wasn't true. That was disinformation. The truth was the Russians had no LSD program. The Chinese did. So they tried to throw us off the off the scent by blaming the Russians. We panicked and by 1952 we started this program called MK Ultra which began by using LSD

[08:21] um experimentally. What the CIA did was they they started by dosing their own employees without telling them. Um, several committed suicide. One jumped out of a hotel window >> with the hope that >> yeah, we'll just see what happens. See what they say. See how it feels, you know, see if we can control them. See if we can plant memories that didn't actually happen. And then they decided, no, it's not a good idea to dose our own people. Let's just dose strangers out in public. So they went to San Francisco.

[08:53] They rented a safe house and they hired prostitutes to go out on the street, pick up John's, bring them back to the safe house. >> John's >> John's people who hire prostitutes, men who hire prostitutes, dose the John's with uh LSD and just see what happens. But I mean these are like serious crimes you're committing against people. >> Just reading about it here. It says

[09:23] under Operation Midnight Climax. >> Interesting name. Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA paid sex workers to lure men to safe houses where agents drugged them and then watched them through oneway mirrors and recorded their behavior. >> Exactly. >> They tried to erase their personality. Nice, huh? >> The goal was often to break and rebuild the human mind. In 1973, the CIA director ordered mass destruction of the

[09:54] MK Ultra files. What we know comes from accidentally surviving documents, meaning this is a sanitized version. >> That day, he testified before the church committee. The church committee specifically told him, "Do not destroy any documents." He went back that afternoon to the CIA and said, "Destroy everything." >> Why? Because it it was damning. They were experimenting on American citizens.

[10:25] They were they were experimenting by spreading diseases in American cities. And so he was held in contempt of Congress. He was fined like $150 and um about 15% of the documents were overlooked and survived. We'll never know exactly what happened
