Title: CIA Whistleblower John Kiriakou Exposes Post-9/11 Torture, Government 
Show: Eric A. Cinotti: Unplugged
Date: 2026-02-05
URL: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/69822370/285569_eric_cinotti_unplugged_2025_10_06_exposing_the_whistleblowing_against_the_cia.mp3
Duration: 59:00

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[00:03] tonight on unplugged where we cut through the noise no scripts no filters just

[00:38] the truth what an exciting episode of unplugged I'm like jumping through my my skin here Brett over here but right I'm up like I'm up my rocker like Gary am I a little like excited today the way out the wall my god I can't I'm ready folks let me get in my mind our guest tonight is John Kiriaka former CIA officer intelligence analyst covert counterintelligence officer he is infamously however respectfully but infamously known for breaking the

[01:11] silence on waterboarding and what was otherwise known as enhanced terror technique enhanced interrogation techniques which we all do know now was torture which we all know provided zero and good actionable intelligence John has lived our tough life with decisions that have marked and changed his life and on Sonati show folks you know we pull back that curtain we call a spade a spade and we're gonna tell you who John really is without the spin let's

[01:45] get through it he's lived through many things and we're gonna get him on in a second he exposed something just was so despicable that our country would be engaged in and he's he'll get into it a little bit more but you all know who he is he's got several books out he's he's everywhere on online I respect that because I know the heavy weight of what silence can be and John and I will talk about that because we know each other and we're gonna have a nice combo I suffer in silence he suffer in silence in a world where truth isn't convenient it's dangerous truth is dangerous and tonight we're gonna talk

[02:20] about the danger let's bring in John welcome John to unplug thanks Eric good to be with you thanks for having John it is absolute pleasure let's just tap for a second how was life for you right now you know that things have finally turned around it it took it took the better part of a decade and a half but so I got things to look up for you know it's kind of a cliche that things really do get better but they actually do get better so you got to just stick with it keep your nose down and and work as hard as you can good thing you know

[02:52] the silence is tough you know what I mean because you have to be beat up publicly and you can't actually say the truth yeah and in that period where you need support the most that's when people are the most likely to abandon you you really get to see who your friends are who your real friends are and and even family members will decide that your numbers abandon me yeah yeah I did too you know I'm John we're gonna start up on one little note I'm not gonna name a country or an AOR you're a legend we served in the same location and I

[03:26] read some of your stuff you are amazing had a good time I had a good time there a great location yeah great place people think it's a great location but we had a good time but yeah you're a legend of your own world I mean truly thank you for that you know I watched some you watch you on some other shows we are a radio show so we're live on I heart what we will be downloadable in every podcast about 30 minutes after the show airs live but I watched some people do some sandbagging to you so I want to start with one thing John you know

[03:59] that I'm a trained lawyer and I'm a constitutional I got my book coming out on Constitution let's get the facts straight folks John was charged federally not for exposing national secrets that put the country in jeopardy he never did that he never taught what it never was a convicted or actually anything with that he was charged with a very weird it's like that UCMJ the uniform code of military justice at y'all right basically for identifying an undercover intelligence officer's name which you

[04:30] accidentally said and I know we don't want to say it but tell me how that worked out for you that you were not a trader to your nation like oh no the traders were the ones that put us in a position to do more harm to the country business and violating Constitution gave up no secrets no no no in fact at first the Justice Department charged me with three counts of espionage for blowing the whistle in the torture program and then they declassified the program in their words for the purpose of prosecution right and they

[05:01] overreach and then they waited until I went bankrupt and then when I went bankrupt they dropped all the do and you know there is legislation for using the justice system which we know gets weaponized all you know selective prosecution right there they're supposed to be statues for that and any selectively prosecuted you because we could name and we're not going to several people that did far worse oh listen I'll name several people who good name it on my show do it do it do expose the names wait a minute the people who expose the names of covert operatives like David Petraeus expose

[05:34] the names of 10 covert operatives to his adulterous girlfriend and there was a disgruntled for a little tough right yeah and there was a disgraced former CIA officer from Bethesda Maryland who outed seven CIA officers undercover from the Bush administration Scooter Libby Libby never exposed anybody's name didn't he get nails or something what what did he go down for he went down for perjury it was it was the deputy secretary of state who exposed Valerie yeah I mean I think that was impivial for me to get out there because nobody

[06:05] seems to want to tell that upside because you know that actually kind of vindicate you tremendous yeah now you've gotten your life together are you understanding you're going on a very large speaking engagement yeah I'm gonna go on a on a year-long around the world speaking tour starting in two weeks in Ireland and Northern Ireland if you're in Ireland we're gonna be in Belfast Cork and Dublin and then a quick side trip to Manchester it's been on Ireland since you're talking about it what do you think about Belfast in Dublin you know as that split of iron one doesn't you think that's ever gonna

[06:40] rectify yeah I do yeah I hope among the British people they don't want Northern Ireland right it's too much trouble to deal with now since the Good Friday peace Accords it's been better but what threw a wrench into the situation was the UK's decision to withdraw from the European Union right now because Ireland's in the European Union and Britain's not in the European Union you know they haven't quite figured out exactly the best workable way to handle the border it's gonna be a big problem and yeah I know you're into the Greek and I believe we

[07:10] both put a hopped into Cyprus right I actually Brett you know I was talking to a guy from Cyprus yesterday actually that you know well I'll hit you off line with him he's a natal guy and he was like what is that language he was looking at I'm like oh it's Greek but I use using a translator I can't be Greek you wonder how you understand was the only person in CIA that can speak Greek and Arabic yeah as crazy as it sounds I was the only person in the entire CIA that had both Greek and Arabic that's why they sent me to Athens the seminar Athens primarily to do Arab terrorism secondarily to do Greek

[07:42] terrorism but it was the Greek terrorists that kept us busy all the time tell us how did your federal prison experience turn out you know where I'm going with this it's pretty funny you know we incarcerate far far too many I wrote an article about that yeah it's terrible you know you know the statistics and we have 5% of the world's population in the world yeah we absolutely we have 5% of the world's population we have 25% of the world's prison population and Congress creates 50 new crimes 50 new felonies every

[08:12] single year that's something that was legal a year ago that is a felony today and it's it's just over the top yeah so I wouldn't wish it on anybody but I I had as easy a time as a person could have worked out for you when you got there I got I got adopted by the Italians when I arrived and really you know I mean Italians named Gambino and Lucchese and Bonanno and you know not on day if it can't they yeah and so they took they took good care of me I you had good sausage I understand I gained 35 pounds in prison so because of those good

[08:47] fellow like they I know they brought you wine you got the good life wine and pork loin and fresh vegetables and pasta yeah but you originally they were trying to link you up with the Aryan nation people yeah the Aryans were the first ones to approach me and you know Muslims also supported you yeah it was less support as as it then it was first I think they were afraid you no no my first my first day in prison one of the nation of Islam guys came up to me and and

[09:21] very gingerly handed me a newspaper it was the call it was called it was the nation of Islam newspaper and he said that that Reverend Farrakhan had said that I was a hero of the Muslim people and that I wouldn't have any problem with them and so that was it I never spoke again yeah so the Aryans were the ones that first approached me and they demand paperwork and when you first arrive you have to show an official BOP form saying what your crime was and

[09:52] mine was this obscure violation or yeah I never heard such a section act of 1981 and so because I wasn't gay I wasn't a rat and I wasn't a child molester then I was okay with the Aryans so how did the five families approaching I lived across the hall from a captain in the banana like can I ask obviously both know who it is can you say it or no you know I'd kind of like to leave him out of it because not only was he good to me but we remain friends and we remain in touch and yeah I think I should leave him out but he

[10:24] asked me one day I had a subscription the New York Times and he had a subscription the New York Post and so at the end of the day we would trade papers and then we would sit and watch you know football together sometimes baseball and so he asked me one day he says let me ask you a question why do you sit with those Nazi retards in the and I said I don't know when I my first day here they they looked at my paperwork they told me to sit with them and he said from today you're with the Italians but you're Greek you're

[10:54] close to the Romans yeah yeah yeah very much so and you know in all you had a you had a bodyguard service that walked every way you walked in the facility it wasn't for me so much as it was for the actual boss of the Gambino would it be the person that I sent you a picture of him and I know no no it was somebody above the other guy all right yeah I got you was he wasn't there when you were there the picture no we just missed each other yeah I thought so everybody everybody knows where everybody else is like there was a guy there's another guy you know a guy right they do they all know a guy and

[11:30] they all have these networks on the outside and so two weeks in advance we knew so-and-so was coming or this other guy was coming in and he's a stand-up guy or he's a rat or whatever and so you know how to treat people it's a friend of art yeah exactly you know honestly the mafia did a little lucky Luciano worked for the agency during World War two yeah he did I mean to protect the Brooklyn ports yeah yeah I mean they you know that's how I mean that's what created the Longshoremen Union and that's why they get left alone forever that's right so tell me what it what has been the most difficult thing that you've had

[12:04] to overcome because of all this nonsense the right thing yeah that that's actually an easy question you know most most people in prison think that when their sentence is up they can just step back into their lives again and you can't you don't realize how depressed you are you don't realize how much anxiety you have and you certainly don't realize that you're suffering from PTSD yeah and you get out and you think you could just just start right back up again and you can't that's number one number two many people also under estimate the

[12:40] impact that the whole experience had on their families that's hard to maybe the hardest though is you just will not be able to get a job period you and I were talking offline I got rejected at every grocery store I got rejected at Target and McDonald's and I got rejected as a baggage handler at the airport I couldn't buy a job and so you know I had a couple of little bones thrown my way I

[13:11] got a job at a at a think tank in Washington they wanted me to write about you know prison reform issues but minimum ways and I'm a good writer I've published you know eight books so far I made the New York Times best sellers list I won one of the country's four biggest literary awards so I'm a good writer but I was making 24 grand I think you're reluctant fine was your best one thank you that's the one that in doing time like a spider the two I like that too but I didn't like the prison aspect because I just felt like

[13:44] yeah it was tough yeah exactly and you know it's funny that's the only one of my books that I've not reread I believe it because you probably hurt during that one yeah it my heart starts to race you know the next question is going to make your heart race but it's no it's not a same big question so exposing something as powerful as CIA's interrogations program isn't an easy decision and I truly honor and respect the fact that you did that because you saved the lives thank you a lot of people did not want to be there for that I appreciate I remember that I know when that went down they weren't sure where

[14:17] stuff was coming from and everybody got yanked into skips or folks out there that don't want to skip this would you like to tell them what a skip is yeah it's a secure communications center it's a secure it's a revolted area can be as small as a little conference room it can be as big as the entire floor of a building but it's got it's got windows that can't be penetrated by laser beams it's it soundproofed you can you can leave classified documents out in a skiff and and not when this came out they didn't know where everything was coming

[14:48] from John so they they were pulling everybody in into skips and they were making people sit there and they were there was the forensics guys are going through computers like crazy well I'll tell you what that actually wasn't me I blew the whistle all at once in a nationally televised interview on ABC news in December what's the name Brian Ross yes but there had been leaks starting in 2005 and I was in that location and 05 actually it was the international came out with a report saying that CIA was torturing its prisoners human rights watch came out with a report you know six saying CIS

[15:22] torturing its prisoners American and International Red Cross did a report 07 CIS torturing its prisoners I confirmed it I was not the originator of the information right out there so you didn't expose anything and that's why the Bush administration didn't charge me with a crime they said that the information you know what he was doing they shouldn't be doing either yeah it's a crime to classify a crime I mean that's an international war crime so when you made that call to speak out did you feel like the system that you served for so long and let's get real you started off in a desk job and

[15:57] you were pre-911 myself 911 too that's what got me into the game and you went operational as myself I went operational in in 97 so I had I had a couple of operational tours all in counterterrorism operations before that and then I had I had also finished the advanced counterterrorism operations course so I was ready to go yes but you took that one or you're not allowed to I can't say they split up to different facilities it was all domestic out west right with the driving and stuff yeah yeah yeah driving was not drove the big Ranger trucks in the expeditions right exactly good times right

[16:32] yeah I loved it yeah I do listen are we the best drivers though oh my god still still to this day and you can't you can't trade you can't follow me it's funny they they drove that training into you so hard it's not like I took that class I took the first running of it in 1993 I took the second running in the spring of 2000 so we're talking about 25 years ago I took that course and still in my mind I remember it like I took it last week yeah it's just muscle memory it is

[17:06] it's like I mean I guess all the counter surveillance stuff I mean my head is on a swivel 24-7 no matter what yeah yeah everything you know operation I'm prepared 24-7 so I wanted that so did you feel like I mean obviously I know you felt like did you think that they were gonna not fully turn against you the way they did because so many people do applaud you but they were afraid to speak out you know and that's that's the reason why I waited for clearances if anybody said anything got the bit I waited for four years before I said it I said something four and a half years because I kept waiting for somebody else to come

[17:39] out and do it there were so many people reporting back from the secret site that they were objecting like vehemently objecting to this torture program I say the location of the specifics of a specific site you can I can't right I won't then because I know because I was right close to there so it's never been declassified so I just said okay good thank you so I just expected somebody to come forward and do something about it and nobody did and then they were gonna charge you honestly it dragged on forever yeah it dragged on forever I mean the

[18:09] Bush administration elected to not charge me they sent my attorney a declination letter saying that they had concluded that I hadn't broken the law and then you know I know Obama was talking about parting you know he wasn't there was conversation about people that was scuttlebutt on that no I know you're a fan of his book you read it or something I hated his book but you had it on the interview with that yeah yeah yeah it was so self-serving was that enough you is that what I get it now I just somebody dropped it up a little very very fun the Greek American community rallied to my side and there

[18:44] were several very important Greek Americans that asked him to pardon me and his exact words were guys I'm just not gonna do this it's either him or it's Manning and Manning got 35 years and so I didn't get it yeah now we're both gonna be in the same location next week do you think that gentleman will we're gonna be at the same event is you think he'll help you I don't know man I've got a fan of three letter agencies no he's not and he's been a supporter of mine you know he is and he spoke out publicly about you he did any any he tweeted at me when he was when he was president and I'm hoping that something

[19:22] good can come of it unbelievable you know operational insight programs like these just don't appear they're built and approved over time and my question is who's the architect in this program that we even know that obviously it's classified at that I don't know your level I mean I know your level of what we got I thought this is the USAP isn't it that's you know there's an old saying that success has thousand fathers but defeat has or failure has but one right in the agency they still consider this to be a successful program and so there

[19:54] are a dozen different people I can't name one time I saw any piece of actionable Intel that was actually verifiable yeah there was that produced anything there was none I mean I mean we've all been waterboarded and it's terrible I mean you will tell your torturer anything anything they make that stop wants to hear just to make him stop why don't you explain to people what it really feels like oh it very much feels like you're drowning cases like in the case of Abu Zubaydah he did drown and his heart stopped so that he

[20:26] could be tortured more you know that program actually created some of the combat medic programs because the doctors would no longer do it because of the Hippocratic Oath that's right well actually that kind of advanced army medicine because combat medics are now PAs because they somebody needed to do this they objected in writing most of them too I mean there were doctors from the CIA's Office of Medical Services writing cables and saying whoa wait a minute I didn't sign up for this I took an oath to first do no harm I'm not going to drown this guy and many of them curtailed their their assignments

[20:58] which is a career-ending decision right once you do that your game's over some of them you know resign now you have no pension anything now no they see my pension is that disgrace yeah all the good things you've done and honestly again folks out there we're going commercial free on this show again folks John will be on the hostile zone Monday night 7 p.m. on I heart radio you'll be back again for some different conversation with a different crowd got to put that plug in but again folks he was never ever convicted nor

[21:30] really charged of disclosing government secrets or anything like that you didn't Edward Snowden no Chelsea Manning what is it Bradley Manning Chelsea Manning what is it who knows and they got they let him into Harvard they gave yeah yeah they gave him an admission to Harvard yeah I know I did I just ruin your day even more you're going on your speaking engagement next week you're gonna be a millionaire don't worry about I will say I met Chelsea Manning once her request but Chelsea Manning is not a part of the whistleblower community either in government or in Washington or

[22:02] nationally not a player not a participant nobody that I know is in contact with her oh Snowden's a giant yeah Snowden's a giant I have the deepest possible respect for him you know I wouldn't have done it the way he did it can I bring up an interview you did with somebody Andrew and what was the month yeah boost the month Andrew he looked a lot different years ago what was that show you who's who's who's show we are was the Danny Jones pocket yeah I like Danny I think he's an asset he is

[22:33] screaming an asset Rex Freeman is he an asset I don't have any idea I think he might be an NLC I don't know well if he is if he is you try to get it a felony he's really good I'm just talking Joe care of life he's so good he's just really the best he really is good have you been on his show let's know he is so calculated with his questions he is really good that's how many Joneses Danny Jones is great too the gifted interviewer and when my edit my my executive producer she's going to get the clip so Dan Andrew boost a month date is a former CIA officer himself yes he has a thing called every day

[23:08] spiable that's right and and he basically sells tradecraft yes two businesses to promote business whatever I have no comment on what he does with his life I really have nothing negative Andrew I got nothing negative to say about you but what happened to you on that particular episode it was a nice conversation and then he called you a traitor and he said you and Snowden tell us what happened Danny Jones had asked us months in advance if we would agree to a debate and I readily said yes it was so then it was spirited and

[23:40] the truth is we agreed on probably every cent yeah of what we were talking again he just slipped on you yeah we're gonna she's gonna run it the clip but tell us what happened I mean I mean how did you feel at that moment I mean talk about being sampled oh no listen to me he's just some kid who happened to spend a couple of years in the agency I was not intimidated by him at all and you know a few days before that debate I remember thinking should I prepare for this in some way and then I thought no if I don't know these these issues by now

[24:10] I'm never gonna know him I'm like one of the country's leading experts on these issues right you say everywhere I speak everywhere all the time and I've written you know seven of my of my books are about the CIA so no I don't need to prepare and my attorney my attorney later texted me he's not just a constitutional lawyer Harvard and Harvard law he was also the deputy attorney general of the United States and he texted me and he said you gave that kid a masterclass in the Constitution you school so yeah I did I I was very proud of

[24:44] my view like that he got he got frustrated and so he called me a trader because I had a show on a Russian radio network I was ancient here in the United States yeah it was terrestrial radio here in the radio correct but yeah we thought it was Washington DC and was sanctioned on the airways here in America yeah it's like BBC what do you call your trade if you're on BBC exactly there we go folks there it is so John let's get this let's get to something better I just wanted to set the record straight for you on that thank you so your experience came from much of real-world operation versus political pressure from

[25:18] the people who have been in the field now we know how it works in this game you get a pencil neck political appointee that comes in and thinks that they're gonna change a career operative analyst agent officer whatever and you know that they're gonna do that how did that affect you because you know that those are the people that came at you hard there wasn't agency insiders coming for you it was political hacks it was political hacks who had been agency insiders yeah I mean are the lifetime agency people that have been in there and they're never going anywhere that's what I'm talking so you got your

[25:49] political appointees and then these people that are there are no there are no political appointees at the CIA other than the director director but I mean like the high-level SCS special executive service whatever yeah we have the we have this for the senior senior intelligence service SIS and then they're there for 25 30 35 years yeah and they don't leave now John Brennan had left he had retired and had gone on John Brennan now yeah I mean he had gone to some comments I made about him on a show on yeah

[26:22] silent here's the mutual respect I want to take a second to acknowledge the risks that you took that kind of decision just I can't imagine because obviously well you know what happened to me and you know that I can't say anything maybe you can help me with that what do you think I mean what what say you on that I made with that I was completely directionless when I got home from prison I was in prison for 23 months had this minimum wage job went to work for a very very small medical devices company completely on commission

[26:54] was not able to contribute to the well-being of my family and so I just decided to well actually it was my ex-wife we were still married at the time and she said okay family she said you have to embrace this you can't like hide from it you have to embrace it and you've got a so boxing and very tough so she was right I started writing writing writing like that's what I mean I got to the point where a publishing house called me and they commissioned a book that turned out to be my third book and I said that was the

[27:27] convenient tear I like that one thank you that's out of all my books that one is the most highly rated very operational very hanging on the seat of your chair I tried hard to make it like that to make it read like I'm gonna be sure to put plugs you have at the end give us links the way they can get these books oh thanks they're all on Amazon so publishing house called me and said can you write this book I said yeah sure I need the money anyway and they said it's from the agency to write your books I if I write a letter to

[27:58] home and garden magazine I need a clearance from the agent how long does it take you to get a return for approval well it they asked me if I would write this book I said yes and they said well we needed in we needed in 30 days and I said 30 days I said it takes me nine months to write a book and they said yeah we needed 30 days so I told my wife I am gonna sit at this computer every day and I'm not gonna get up until I've written at least a thousand words I started writing the day after Thanksgiving and I finished the

[28:29] day before Christmas and got it out in 30 days and then I thought you know what I'm actually pretty good at this book thing then they came back and they commissioned form for anyone else right thank one else no it was the my first was Random House my second was an imprint of Simon and Schuster this was Sky Horse oh they did my third through my seventh and then I shopped my eighth book around and they took it they took the eighth book as well so I mean I

[28:59] have I have my best relationship with with Sky Horse there they're wonderful wonderful and they did Bobby Kennedy's book and they did Melania Trump's book and they have they have some big name authors but I they've done right by me so I just decided you know what the more I write the more I'm gonna get out there and the more I get out there the more I'm gonna rehabilitate myself and it culminated the week before COVID started I got a call from the commandant of West Point inviting me to speak the first year class on ethics

[29:34] in intelligence operations you're now you're now a champion in the game yeah it worked out and then that led to countless podcasts and the podcast it's suffering in silence that's what I'm asking like when you're when you're like you know well you know what's going on with me yeah so what I've experienced it's tough you can't say anything and you got to sit there and you got to be the dirtbag that people want to say that's where you're wrong that's where you're wrong you can say something you can say the government's full of shit

[30:05] the cops are full of shit I didn't do what they're accusing me of doing and if they want to have this argument let's have it in public are you sure do you think any of that was real with me of course not thank you heard it right from a real professional here there you go I mean it's terrible they did it and you know you see who wrote some of that stuff and you see their narrative of who they are well there was a hatchet job by NPR and NPR tried to hatch a job on me too and you know it's funny they tried and I wouldn't I wouldn't stand for it

[30:36] so they called me and they said hey we'd like to have you on whatever that that show is on Saturday mornings I forget whatever it is and so I said yeah sure because I always I always say yes so I go all the way up to NPR up on Capitol Hill and they're so nice to me here's a bottle of water here's a cup of coffee they bring me into the studio we sat down as soon as they hit the report button they attack and I said oh no you wouldn't hear the next call when they called me I said I don't know who you I said oh no you don't I'm not gonna

[31:08] take it from you or from anybody else I said listen I don't answer to NPR I said if you're gonna if you're gonna invite me to come on and have a conversation I'll come on and have a conversation it would I could be on just me I'm not gonna play games like that with you and I got up and I walked out they actually clipped it down to like two minutes I did the dog an interview on Saturday morning I just ignored it I got a call from a professor friend of mine who said wow I just heard this clip on NPR you really gave it to

[31:40] him and I was like huh I can't believe they had the balls to actually run it but they never called me again and that's perfectly fine with me now what happened not MP then but another news outlet which I don't want to spark a war with them again I could not get anybody to interview interview me at all which was terrible I mean and you know the facts it is stuff you know it's complete nonsense and you know who I am and you know me so I don't need to go any further with that I did do an interview on my phone and they I sent it to them and they took 10 seconds yeah they had to interview they're quite

[32:11] good at that because it ran in narrative but that sheriff is out of office yeah bye bye bye bye John that's good well I'll tell you a funny story I got a call on time this is in like 20 I'm gonna say 17 or 18 I got a call from the Washington Post and I've written for the post a couple of times it's not unusual for them to call me but the guy calls the reporter and he said hey I was wondering if I could get a quote from you on Peter Strock you remember

[32:41] Peter Strock was the FBI agent yeah had you know take over his his adulterous girlfriend about Trump yeah the crazy man it never happened but it was right there right right so I said I said well I'm happy to talk to you guys but I don't know any any more about Peter Strock than what I've read in the Washington Post and he says no Peter Strock is the FBI agent who arrested you and I said that was Peter Strock he was new he said yeah I went through the

[33:12] I went through the paperwork and it was Peter Strock who put the cuffs on you I said oh yeah I'll give you a comment give you a comment now and I said I said in Washington people have long memories and karma is a bitch thank you and that's what they that's what they printed and you know what and the downfall lies it happens and they escorted him out of FBI headquarters they took his gun in his badge and took him by the arms and escorted him out of FBI headquarters just as he deserved absolutely but did he get charged really no you know what

[33:44] the son of the gun the son of the gun raised over a hundred twenty thousand dollars on GoFundMe to pay his legal bills too which really made me mad and it donated to the Biden administration too I thought I think he probably did because he never ended up going to trial he was looking for a pardon yeah you so did you watch any of the hearings on the on the hill yeah did you see Pete handed himself well he did you know out of out of all the about Pete he's the incoming Secretary of Defense Jeff formerly of Fox News listen for me personally I think he's a terrible choice because he's not qualified I

[34:17] think that's where Trump wants that he wants a man a man of assault you don't put somebody with no qualifications in charge of a one trillion dollar company with three million employees like what are you thinking he handed himself like a pro today though yeah you know like but the questions were you know when did you stop beating your wife when you fathered that child you think that was really appropriate though yeah does that have anything to do with this position it but it has to do with character okay I get you I guess clearance purposes

[34:47] right but hey Barack Obama didn't qualify for security clearance sure he did really it was reported with issues oh he was a member of the intelligence committee I don't know I'm just telling you reports that came across and I'm not taking anything classified here I just read again I wasn't involved with that point I don't want him coming after me but strike that what do you think it's Tulsi Gamber like her a lot like her a lot you think she's gonna make institutional change in the IC no and I'll tell you why tell me why there

[35:18] are 18 intelligence agencies that make up the American you watch my episode on that I did a whole episode identifying each one well there are only two members of the intelligence community that do not fall under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of Defense CIA and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research right and so the only thing that Tulsi Gabbard's going to be in charge of is the intelligence community budget which is important but not important and it's a huge influence on the DIA no any NRO no no those are both DOD agencies

[35:53] so she is very connected with DOD no right we're gonna have a secretary she's still is she still in the guard yeah she is she's interesting no yeah Lindsey Graham is still a an Air Force member the Judge Advocate General I did not know that wow I need to get him on the show that'd be interesting interview so she's she has primacy over the intelligence community budget and she also heads the the PDB the president's daily brief that's it the matrix it's

[36:25] John Ratcliffe that is gonna be that is gonna be right yeah the main player right what do you think of a Mike Flynn he needs a pardon I personally would pardon Mike Flynn I don't think Mike Flynn should have ever been charged with a crack he was another one set up yeah I think he was set up now I think he should have been charged with not registering under under Farah he was clearly obviously you are taking money from a foreign government for the purpose of promoting the the positions or policies of that government you have to

[36:58] fill out a form called the foreign agents registration act form Farah it's it takes 10 minutes you go to Farah dot gov and you just fill it out I mean he wasn't doing anything illegal he just needed to file it he did not file it right he was he was representing the another stupid little government then he was representing the government of Turkey right and and never registered and then there was famously reported in the Wall Street Journal about a week before Donald Trump became president there was a meeting in a New York hotel where

[37:33] Flynn was meeting with members of the Turkish National Intelligence Organization the TINIA and and former CIA director Jim Woolsey went to the meeting he was five minutes late and when he walked in Flynn was offering the Turks he was offering to kidnap Fatullah Gulen a Turkish oppositionist who lived outside of Pittsburgh and turn him over to the Turks and Woolsey said oh my god you're committing a felony it's not the guy that has the perimeter around this property yeah and so Woolsey walked out of the meeting and then

[38:06] immediately called the FBI this is over that uprising that occurred in Turkey where they get the tense and everything I remember yeah yeah so Flynn should have been charged with that felony he wasn't he was charged for a felony that he actually didn't commit and got a pardon he's a good guy I want to I think he's a religious nut to tell you the trigger we're gonna agree to disagree I like Mike what's your take on Pompeo oh Pompeo is a scum I was waiting for you know I have a friend who was one of Pompeo's bodyguards in the

[38:37] CIA's Office of Security and we had we had lunch one day and I said so how are things going over there and he said let me tell you the only person who is less popular than Mike Pompeo is Mrs. Mike Pompeo he said all she does is snap her fingers and say dog you go pick up my dry cleaning you shovel the snow and they're like yeah we're here to protect your husband so I have you I want you to tell a funny story and Kelly's gonna have to bleep it out because we're radio oh that's a guy that made a comment to you about a genitalia tell

[39:11] that story I love it but Jenna tell you remember he said I have a better than bigger than you oh that was when I got a great story when I got hired agency I know it's okay for radio okay I know the truth the truth of the story is okay for radio I was in grad school at George Washington that works because people don't understand how NOC positions work so I was not a knockoff no I mean this guy was no no it wasn't a press saying I don't I'm not really a

[39:41] professor yeah yeah he was yeah I mean that to the people where do you want me to start stories both stories I'm trying to get it all in in time frame so I was in grad school at George Washington University I was taking this class it called the psychology of leadership it was taught by Dr. Gerald Post was a psychiatrist and eminent psychiatrist he had a PhD in political science a PhD in psychology and an MD all from Yale and pardon me it's going don't gang oh I have no idea I doubt it he was

[40:12] Jewish so not not gonna happen okay yeah so he signed us this paper where we had to shadow our bosses for a week and then write a psychological evaluation of our bosses and I was working for a union at the time the United Food and Commercial Workers Union and I was working for this guy was a real real tough guy like old school union organizer he had his back broken during a strike scabs beat him up and broke his back real tough guy and I was a little bit afraid of it so I'm shadowing him this one week and we got

[40:44] into an argument and I called him a racist and he squared he squared up and put his fists up in the air and I put up my hands to protect myself and I thought oh no I went too far this time but instead of hitting me he says my penis is bigger than yours I said what and he said it again my penis is bigger than yours and I said you know what your nuts and I quit and I walked out I quit so I went back to my apartment I wrote this paper and I wrote it very comprehensively and passed the paper in a week later I get the

[41:17] paper back and I got an A and Dr. Post wrote in the margin please see me after class so I went up to him after class and and said Dr. Post you wanted to see me and he said yeah close the door so I closed the door and he said look I'm not really a professor here I'm undercover I'm a CIA officer undercover as a professor here were you saying that professors could possibly be actually working in the intelligence community in place as a professor until 1993 yes right yeah yeah in 1993 I mean before 1993 this is

[41:52] the way that people got recruited right this is the way that most that most operations officers were recruited that's why everybody was white everybody was male everybody went to a great school on the east coast you know that's just the way it was and then in 1993 Congress passed the equal employment the equal opportunity the equal employment opportunity act who I will talk about that a minute and yeah I mean it inadvertently weakened the agency to tell you the truth but yeah he made some calls I mean I had to

[42:24] do it all on my own I had to take the tests pass the tests polygraphs background investigation you have to give them some of your blood some of your piss some of your hair psychological testing your right hair or did they take it from your head they plucked it because they need the they need the root they plucked it from your head and and then I made it I made it and but they don't do that anymore now they do it overtly it's something similar but it's over where they created this this program we're facing job is what I was trying to articulate sitting say that again people have positions that are

[42:55] forward-facing position but they're really doing something else exactly you know where I'm going with this yeah so what they do now they have this program called the scholar in residence program so if you're two or three years before retirement they'll ask you if you want to go back to your alma mater as a CIA officer who's going to teach a couple of classes and then while you're there you essentially do the same kind of spotting you just don't do it secretly you do it overtly now since you kind of touch on that can you explain a little bit what a a unrecognized that like an NOC sort of

[43:29] is yeah a knock officer knock stands for national I'm sorry it stands for non official cover so Emerilist Fox Kennedy who was Bobby Kennedy's is Bobby Kennedy's daughter-in-law and was his campaign manager she's now rumored to be the next deputy national security advisor hear that yeah she was a knock officer so where I was under official cover working in American embassies around the world and most CIA officers are under official cover it's only like 10% or NOC's yeah less than that it's more like six so she was she was an art

[44:04] dealer that was her cover or you know maybe you can be a wildlife photographer or the head of a mutual now as you're not gonna be the content of people who have the information if you were in Mike the New York area post 9-11 yeah we wouldn't have a knock officer domestically and at the M1 and I well I mean unless the firefighters a Muslim and it's going to go into a mosque but otherwise you who gives a key conversation there yeah what did you think about that when they were going to build the mosque right there on ground

[44:36] zero yeah I was I was listen I consider myself a lifelong leftist and I was adamantly opposed to that mosque and I'll tell you why I'm and my position comes from a selfish place and I don't care and I don't make any any excuse right but the reason I felt so strongly about it is there was one church at ground zero it was St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church it was built in 1927 and it was there from the beginning right 50 years 45 years later was when the

[45:09] towers went up and so our church was right there at the towers it was vaporized on 9-11 and so if any religious building any house of worship was going to serve it right it was going to be the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas and that's what is now at ground zero right have you been bound to ground zero since I've never been there many times have you been here I've never gone into the museum or even been into the tower I'm not exaggerating when I

[45:40] tell you it took me 20 years before I could go into the museum has never gone I can't I've never done it it was too painful yeah it was too much I finally went through it a year ago and you were at the Pentagon at the time you were at the you were in in headquarters I was at CIA headquarters yeah I understand you when your wife watched the burning from the house and you like I got to go back to work yeah yeah we went to the roof of the apartment building watch the panic burn from the Marriott yeah we did we stole 10 $15,000 worth of food from the mayor the Marriott ran the cafeteria at the CIA and when

[46:13] everybody evacuated and they chained it closed and so a bunch of us at the counterterrorism center we broke the lock in the chain and and we just cooked all the food and just laid it out for everybody to graze on because we were there for days like without without leaving I slept under my desk you know an hour or two at a time everybody did and so I got a good question for you that you never get asked and we talked about it before you were involved with the movie Zero Dark Thirty no not Zero Dark Thirty I you know Dan

[46:47] Ellsberg called me when Zero Dark Thirty came out and he said you've got to do a review of this movie for the Washington Post because you're the only person who could do it from a position of having been on the inside and so I went to the movie I was gonna skip it I went to see it and I hated it because it perpetuated the lie that torture led to the location about of that we ended up screwing over yeah it was who's still in prison in Pakistan but I did consult on on the kite runner I consulted on on Bruno I consulted on kill the

[47:21] messenger which is about you know the CIA and cocaine and I think also with was it that something of spies with DiCaprio no I did true lies Schwarzenegger I knew I could remember I was I also did from Paris with love with with John Travolta and they really they were kind to me they even put a special thanks at the end of the movie right that's all I mean Hollywood is deeply in bed with

[47:51] the agencies deep I mean I tell people all the time look at the movie Argo yeah yeah although that stuck as close to the truth is you got the good legit that was a legit movie you know the CIA's Office of Public Affairs has a branch that's dedicated solely to liaising with Hollywood and that's something that the FBI did you know for 60 years before this they get all the access the inside of stuff to get equipment and we get to promote our image yeah that's

[48:26] right so well we're coming up to a hard hold but you're gonna be back on the show let me see what I had a whole bunch of things I want to say is there anything you want to ask me John I mean we haven't shattered let's have it what let's do the last four minutes let's have a condom here over here Brett is dying yes you want to ask sure sure he's like a huge fan of yours for sure thank you and he's gonna be a host of a new public safety show on I heart very good appears so good here's your chance buddy yeah Eric's Eric's kind of selling me out which is one of one of those good things you know especially when it comes from a good brand and a good name yep um first of all John war hero you

[49:00] know a lot of us here thank you love some of the work John was a guy Brett he was a contractor with the military thank it was one of those things you know great opportunity loved it loved what we did but I just want to know personally how are you doing now thank God I this is gonna be a life-changing year for me personally it's taken me ten years to get back on my feet ten tell me that very moving to think it's it's hard I won't sugarcoat it my marriage broke up and and

[49:35] so I've gone it alone so it was hard but it really does turn around you just have to work until you can't work anymore I barely sleep all I do is right and and in the end it paid off so this is gonna be you know knock on wood if I could find some wood knock on wood for you yeah it's called Tigers Lane Studios it's based in London they also represented the the two DEA agents who killed Pablo Escobar so I'm their second speaking client and they've booked a

[50:08] 100 event one year around the world speaking tour we're already sold out in Belfast we're almost sold out in Belfast is the 29th Dublin is the 30th and and Manchester England is the first we're adding cork and then I'm gonna go I'm gonna come back here for a few weeks then go back to the UK for 42 dates in the UK so if you go to Tigers Lane Studios comm the schedule is there

[50:42] and add up for you and thank you thank you I'm Brett how'd you feel your first moment on the air see I told you should do it he was stressing it all day please don't make me oh yeah I'm not gonna lie I was a little bit nervous put a plug for your show public safety unplugged safety zone unplugged yes going with the bridge going with the bridge I love that he reminds me of the zone it's one of those things well you are on my network yes yes yes and we have some your friends John coming on too so we're gonna be looking forward to John was

[51:13] kind enough to introduce us to several talent great John what would you like to chat with me for two minutes about well you know rather than ask you questions I want to reiterate what I said earlier you know it's been my experience man that this is not the way my life was supposed to play out right yeah yeah I was always the good kid I got great grades I went to good school got a bachelor's degree got a master's degree did my PhD course work great schools and went to the CIA did really cool stuff 12 exceptional

[51:47] performance awards the sustained superior performance award I met with presidents and kings and prime ministers I went to 72 countries for my my government I wasn't supposed to end up in prison and on the unemployment line but these things happen for a purpose I've really come to believe that they happen for a purpose and now that it's all said and done I realize and it wasn't it wasn't a period of self-realization it was John McCain who told me that this

[52:18] is why I was put on the earth that the American people would never have had any idea what the government was doing in their name if I hadn't told them so even though it seems like life may have taken a dump right on your head there's a silver lining here and that's overlining may be as simple and as obvious as putting a fire under your feet to get on the air and talk about these issues that other people are ignoring so keep the faith as a fake

[52:51] news is killing me you know yeah exactly exactly and so we have to confront that head-on and that's why that's why the hostile zone was created and removed and followed but you know like I find to my box and trolls the same news story that has fake news always pops up number three so I hired it I hired it a major former government contractor to really spook it and there's box there's somebody's paying box see keep it up there but you can never trace them they're out of China I'm sure that that's true and I'll take another thing there was I had a real story I mean you know how atrocious it is

[53:25] oh yeah I had a detractor on on Twitter who would just like hit me every day just she's constantly just hitting me hitting me hitting me and I just ignored her but she's got a quarter of a million followers and then she went too far one night and I decided you know what I'm gonna sue I'm gonna be that guy I'm gonna be that guy who's not directly somebody for that because it nobody wants help and I sued and she fell apart immediately first of all within 48

[53:56] hours she agreed to pin a retraction for six months it was a retraction that my attorney wrote and then she had to apologize in a tweet every day for 30 days I love it and then she paid my she paid my legal fees would you make a referral for me because we're out Matt he actually made threats if I brought somebody in from outside but your guy is they're not gonna play with him nope I would love that I mean you ready for you it's atrocious yeah I mean but you

[54:26] know so John's gonna be with us again on the hostile zone and you'll get to meet them and meet to be lovely Bianca SEA what have you heard a lovely voice you need to pay attention she's amazing how rendition of national anthem is amazing so John I ultimately thank you with sincere gratitude for what you've done for our nation I wish you the best in your speaking engagement I seriously was serious I want to take it up I'm sure I can good good good I'll be in the

[54:57] front row cheering you on brother fantastic and I see you Monday night John you have any final saying word two second word thanks for having me thanks for a good conversation great this will be here Thursday night 7 p.m. Eastern and it will be on all the stations and it'll be in every podcast 30 minutes after that we will talk to you all fair stay on for a second and you see what's up

[55:39] who's brush your eyes and right for the rest of the history that I've been like with Steve

[56:21] and she's not going anywhere oh say our spangled banner for the
