Title: THE NEVER BROKEN PODCAST
Show: The Never Broken Podcast
Date: 2026-05-09
URL: https://youtu.be/il_KYmRx24Q
Duration: 65:00

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[00:00] So, we're back and we'll edit this back in. So, Bin Laden's family gave DNA. They gave DNA [clears throat] and the doctor had collected DNA from what turned out to be Bin Laden's children. Bin Laden had four wives. He had children that ranged in age from like six all the way up into their 40s. And so, uh, the CIA was able to confirm that these were bin Laden's children. They lived in the house with the 20ft wall. Therefore, the man walking in circles in the backyard was most likely Osama bin.

[00:32] >> What was the or because you were out of the CIA at that time, but you were working for like Fox News as a contributor or or ABC >> and you knew that we sent a doctor over and >> Well, I'll tell you what, Brian Ross called me that that night and he said, um, something's going on at the White House. I said like >> Oh, the day that they Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. I said like what? He said, I don't know. that's why I'm calling you. He said, "The president just called a press conference for 10:00." And I said, "At night?" And he said, "Yeah." I said,

[01:02] "They got bin Laden." He said, "That's why I was calling." Do you think that's what this would be? I said, "Yeah, they would not call a press conference for anybody beneath Bin Laden. This has to be about Bin Laden." And so I went into the studio. I got dressed and went into studio waiting for the story to break. And then it broke and I was on all night long. I left the studio 7 o'clock the next morning, slept for a few hours and went back to the studio again.

[01:33] >> Real quick and then we'll transit. Did the Pakistanians, they knew he was there. >> You know, I'm of the belief that it would have been impossible for the most wanted man in the world to live a half a mile from the Pakistani version of West Point. Abidabad is named after a British major named Abbott, right? >> Okay. >> He was there. He was the first military trainer in Pakistan when Pakistan became a country in 1947.

[02:04] So the whole city of Abidabad is just military military >> right >> and it's a nice city. >> It's a nice city. It it's not like the [ __ ] holes you know that people see on television. Karach uh Lahore Fisab. Pashau. It's a nice place and and it's where the leaders of the of the Pakistani military all live. And >> so yeah, I think it was it would have been impossible for them not to know that he was there. >> What do you think the mood was like at the CIA when we got him? >> Jubilation.

[02:35] >> Yes. >> Promotions. But did you know >> promotions, medals? Yeah. >> The I'm curious. Nobody asked this question. No, nobody. Well, if they do, where did the lady get to? The redheaded lady, you know. No, I've I've Googled some names have popped up and I [ __ ] forget, you know, cuz you can. Now, the one late Now, did you see the Get Bin Laden documentary? >> There was a lady that was on there, but they blackened her face out. Now, I'm not >> Which is hilarious. I'm not the smartest

[03:06] [ __ ] you know, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would bet on Kalashi. Hey, if that if was that the head of the CIA that found Bin Lan, I would I would lay a hundred on it that that was her and she was talking and they Was that her? >> Have you know? >> Yeah. >> And then there was a lady with the curly hair that's kind of like heavier set. Did you have any experiences with her? All nice girls? >> No. >> No. They were all demons. >> Really? >> Yeah. cuz the one was against torture. The one, you know, was crying tears and

[03:39] and uh what whatnot. And cuz they were talking about uh Jennifer Matthews who died. And I don't mean no disrespect, but uh I've listened to not just you, but Rob, >> the guy that, you know, supposedly shot Bin L said that that lady was [ __ ] getting people going to get people killed. The third commander at Seal Team Six said, "Stay the [ __ ] away from her. She will get you killed." >> Jennifer, the CIA killed Jennifer. And I'll tell you how >> I want to ask what I mean about what I mean by that >> with Al Bellow. >> We've got rules. >> We got rules for promotion at the CIA.

[04:10] When you when you when you want to be promoted from GS15, which is the highest level in the general services scale to the senior intelligence service, right? Like you're the directors. >> What's the bump if you don't mind me asking in pay from G15 to senior intelligence? >> G15 to to SIS is probably 25 grand. >> Okay. So decent. Decent. Yeah. But if you're in the senior intelligence service, you always you also get these like these corporate style bonuses, >> okay, >> every year that the rest of us don't get. >> So if you want to be eligible for

[04:43] promotion from GS15 to SIS1, >> um you have to have done at least one tour in another directorate. The CIA's four directorates, operations, intelligence, science, and technology, and administration. And you have to have done a tour in the policy community which is either state or DoD. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, Jennifer was an analyst. She was in the director of intelligence. She had done a policy tour

[05:14] at the State Department, but she needed an operational assignment >> to check the box. >> To check the box. >> So, they said, "Jennifer, do you want to be chief of base host?" and she's like, "Absolutely, yes." >> It's a dangerous place, right? >> It's a very dangerous place. It's out in the middle of nowhere in the mountains of Afghanistan. And >> she did not have the time to go through the operational training or the security training. And they said, "Don't worry

[05:44] about that. You're going to be fine. Just go out there and, you know, let's let's do it." Well, that was an incredible disservice. She didn't know anything about recruiting spies to steal secrets. She didn't know anything about keeping her people safe. There were more than a dozen people working for her. She didn't know anything about keeping herself safe. She had never been operational before. And so at the same time that Jennifer was going out to host,

[06:15] a spy was walking into the American consulate in Istanbul and he said, "I'm Jordanian. I'm a doctor, but more importantly, I am Osama bin Laden's personal doctor. >> Was that true? >> Yes. >> This was a major break in the case. >> Okay. >> So, he did not want to be interrogated, he did not want to be debriefed in Istanbul. He said, "I have to go back to

[06:45] Jordan, but then I'm I'm on my way back to Afghanistan because Bin Laden has requested that I be back." We're like, "Okay, we'll meet you in Afghanistan. Come to host, come to uh the base, I think it was called Chapman, and uh we'll we'll uh talk to you there." Okay. Red flags with neon lights should have been going. >> Why is this guy got to go back? Why Why wouldn't he debrief there? I mean, yeah. >> Why wasn't he polygraphed? >> Yeah. >> Why wasn't he surveiled?

[07:16] >> Surveiled, >> right? Why couldn't he meet in Istanbul? Why couldn't he meet in Aman? If he's Jordanian and his family's Jordanian, >> why did he have to meet in Kost even if he had to go back to Afghanistan? >> Why couldn't he meet inside the US embassy in Kabell? >> So, Jennifer, God bless her. Jennifer was the only one of those. It was this click of of five women in the counterterrorism center. She was the only one that I didn't hate. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Um, the others were bloodthirsty

[07:46] monsters, including the red-headed devil. >> Well, you don't call somebody the red-headed devil for shits and giggles. Pardon my French. >> She's a monster. >> Wow. >> So, Jennifer, because she was a sweet lady, realized as she's going through the file that this doctor, the day that he's coming to host, it happens to be his birthday. So, she bakes him a cake. She bakes him a cake and she tells

[08:19] everybody in the in the base, "Hey, listen. Let's meet him at his car and we'll present him with the cake and we'll sing happy birthday to him." Well, first of all, nobody has frisked the guy. Secondly, the car pulls up outside the hard line. And >> what is the hard line for our viewers that don't know? >> The hard line is the area that's fortified, right? We've got sandbags,

[08:50] we've got, you know, guns, we have bulletproof glass, we have, you know, steel doors. >> Okay. >> To protect you. She takes everybody outside the hardline past the metal detector. And it didn't strike anybody as odd that when he got out of the car, number one, he was wearing winter clothes >> and it was summer. >> It was hot. >> Okay.

[09:21] >> The winter clothes were to conceal the bomb that he had strapped. >> Yes. >> On himself. And they didn't think it was odd that when I he got out of the car, he was quietly praying under his breath. Why are you praying? And then when she got everybody right up to him to sing happy birthday, he blew himself up and he killed Jennifer and six other officers. >> It was the deadliest day in the history of CIA. >> On that documentary that they did, they

[09:54] actually played a video. I don't know if it was an act or if it was the real guy showing him meeting with Al video saying he was going to you know meet the US and they thought that he was a friendly but this is not the watch this is detonator you know they they show that in the documentary and so he was a double agent correct >> yeah he was a double agent >> and just went bad right I'm going >> I wouldn't even say he went bad I think that the point from the beginning was to

[10:25] kill as many CIA people as possible. >> That was set out and they come up with this plan. Hey, you're the doctor. >> You can go. Yeah, of course. Because we wanted Bin Laden so bad, >> we would do. She probably thought, oh, if this guy is who he says he is, that's medals. >> She's going to end up being the director of the CIA. This guy is who he says he is. >> Yeah. She's going right to the top. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> And I sat next to Jennifer. She was a very sweet person. >> Wow. Um, she was working with some sharks and they didn't give a [ __ ] about

[10:56] her safety. >> Not at all. >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> That's sad. >> Mhm. >> Cuz she has a family. I mean, I don't know. >> She had the best time recollection, she had three daughters. >> She had kids, a husband, and and you know, and and I don't know, like I said, the documentary is on Netflix, you know, and because it become a money maker. every everybody that was on that documentary was had a feature of them in you know zero dark 30 which you know there's actually something interesting and then we'll switch to another topic

[11:26] but there was a guy and I'll say his name because he was out on Sean Ryan show Matt Bites now he was on 60 Minutes and supposedly he killed Bin Laden >> there are three different >> and he was I don't know who the other guy is I only know the Rob O'Neal I mean >> made a living just >> a living. I have a book the operator I mean hey I I brought it and said hey you know pay 50 bucks or you know hey what whatever you know and beset you know talks about how after the

[11:58] bin Laden mission they went and there was Leon Petta and I forget that the director and producer is here dark 30 and Leon Panetta is like hey this is so and so >> written about this he outed them >> he's going to make you f they're going to make you f yeah I guess they gave him a list of their name they actually >> he read the he read the list of names to a a group of unclassified audience members >> and gave them like the mockup that they had the mockup the >> classified mockup >> classified. >> I wrote an oped for the for the Los Angeles Times. >> Where would I find that at if I'm

[12:29] >> Oh, it's it's still on the Times. >> Okay. Would love to read it. >> And I was like, why isn't Leon Petta in prison? >> Yeah, >> right. This is a violation of the Espionage Act. >> Yeah, >> you can't just talk about this stuff. It's above top secret. And that made being in the milit which I think hey I we we live in the greatest country ever and I respect people that serve this country. It made the special forces look real sexy. See it next thing you know there's a [ __ ] Seal Team 6 uh show on CBS to where they're using Navy Seals to

[13:01] consult on the show. >> See, and their identities are supposed to be perpetually classified. >> They're not. Now everybody's making money writing books. Like I said about the guy that wrote Kil Bin Laden, he used a pen name and and whatnot. I guess that's was what you were supposed to do. But you know, if you get a chance, watch the interview with Besonette and Shawn Ryan cuz he was ousted by the teams. >> Oh yeah. >> Was they were furious. >> He wrote a book the same as Rob O'Neal, but I guess he didn't get Yes. bankrupted the guy. >> Yeah.

[13:32] >> You know, bankrupted the guy. And why would they do that if they let the one guy do it but not the other? Why? Why would they? I have no idea. >> So transitioning out of bin Laden, you are famous for the capture of Abu Zaba. So on the parag, you know, the you know the org chart, you have Bin Laden. Where was Abu Zeda? >> You see that's kind of >> that's what I want to transition into. >> That's kind of the thing. >> Everybody else transitions into Zeda to

[14:02] bin Laden. I'm going to do it reverse engineer. >> We believed at the time that Abeda was the number three in al-Qaeda. Okay. >> He wasn't >> really >> he never joined al-Qaeda. He was a bad guy. He had created al-Qaeda's safe house in Pishaw, Pakistan, the house of martyrs. He had created and staffed the two training camps in southern Afghanistan. He was kind of a logistician. Like if you if you were tired of fighting, you wanted to go home, he would get you a passport and a ticket, send you home. if you were brand

[14:34] new, you just arrived and you wanted to go fight, he'd get you across the mountains into Afghanistan to be trained. So, he was a bad guy, but he had never pledged filty to Osama bin Laden. And he had never joined al-Qaeda. >> And he'd ever met Bin Laden. >> No. >> And how the hell did he get slid across your desk if you can talk about that? >> In retrospect, I wrote a book about it with uh with Joe Hickman, who >> who was Joe Hickman? >> Joe Hickman was a a guy in the army who had guarded Abaza at >> Guantanamo. So I wrote half the book, he

[15:04] wrote the other half the book, and it's two whistleblowers accounts of, you know, blah blah blah. >> So what really put us on the wrong track with Auba >> is that Abuza had a first cousin who was also named Abu Zuba. >> Really? >> And we're getting these intelligence reports like, "Oh my god, Abu Zuba is in Pakistan. and he's going to do this this operation. And then it's like, "Holy [ __ ] Abu Zuba is in in Jordan. He's

[15:36] going to do this operation. Oh my god, Abu Zuba is in Montana. Oh my god, Abu Zuba is in Saudi Arabia. We didn't know there were two Abu Zubas." And I remember saying to a colleague of mine, "This Abu Zuba, he's he's like some kind of terrorist Superman. He's everywhere. We just didn't know there were two of them, not one." And then as soon as we caught Abu Zuba in Fiselad, his cousin who was in Montana >> really was in >> vanished. >> Have they ever found him?

[16:06] >> They never found him. >> When you're going after Abu Zedu, you land in Pakistan. What What being a kid from Western Pennsylvania who dreamed of of being a spy in the Middle East. when you get there and you know they say you you need to cap was was your mission capture average beta or capture as many al-qaeda what whatever [clears throat] >> we knew we were going to catch a lot of people >> in this in this series of raids he was

[16:36] by far the most important target in fact he was the very first what we called HBT highv value >> target >> um in the war on terror and so as soon as we got word that he was somewhere in Pakistan and we had to catch him. Um, we focused on him thinking whoever else we get, it's going to be gravy, but we had to get him because we thought if we can get him. We had

[17:07] already killed the number three in al-Qaeda. That was Muhammad Atf. >> We we bombed a house that he was hiding in in Tora Bora. Oddly enough, when we bombed the house, it it splintered the dining room table and a chunk of wood went through his neck and killed him. So, if Abu Zuba had been the number three, we figured, well, he's only been the number three since October, but he would

[17:37] have been instrumental in the planning of 9/11. He wasn't. Now, he gave us deep actionable intelligence later on to the to the FBI. Intelligence that saved American lives >> that you can't talk about. >> Oh, no. I can tell you exactly what it was. >> Okay. What if you don't want to ask him? >> He he gave us first of all the al-Qaeda wiring diagram. >> We had no idea how al-Qaeda was structured. We knew Bin Laden was at the top. Zawahi was at was number two.

[18:09] Number three was vacant, constantly changing person. But then under that, we knew that the there were these cells. There's, you know, there's Berlin and and Koala Lumpur and Bangkok. And we knew that there was al-Qaeda all over the place, but we didn't know how they operated or even whether they were in communication with one another. So he described it to us. So for example, this is an example I use all the time. Ali Sufan, the FBI interrogator. >> He was on that dock. They they

[18:41] >> a great guy. >> Okay. Did >> because I know you don't like the FBI. >> I don't like but I love Ali. Okay. >> He he did great work. >> So Ali would ask him if you were going to do an operation in Dusseldorf, how would you do that? And Aba would say, well, I know this guy Muhammad and he's the cell leader and here's his phone number. and he's got a friend Abdullah and Abdullah has access to weapons. And here's Abdullah's email

[19:12] address. And Abdullah's got a cousin, Rashid, and Rashid has access to detonators. And then Rashid's brother-in-law, you know, whatever. So then we could call the Germans and say, "Listen, you have a serious problem in Dusseldorf. Here's who you need to wrap up." And then they bust down the door and they grab everybody and there's no more al-Qaeda cell in Dusseldorf. So that was the first thing that he did for us. The second thing he did for us, we knew that there was a very bad guy out there who went by the name Mtar.

[19:46] We knew from 1996 that Muar was trying to come up with a plan to use aircraft as missiles. >> Okay. >> In the Philippines, it was called the Bojinka operation. The idea was to hijack 14 747s from Manila airport, fly them across the Pacific, and fly them into buildings all up and down the west coast of the United States. He has the plans all laid out on a table

[20:16] and he decides to go out and have lunch. While he's out at lunch, the cleaning lady comes to clean the apartment. She looks at all this and she says, "This looks like a terrorist attack. I better call the police." She calls the cops. The Manila police come, they look at it and they said, "This looks like a terrorist attack. We better call the Philippine Intelligence Service." They come and they said, "Oh, this looks like a terrorist attack. We better call the CIA." So the CIA came and they're like,

[20:48] "Yeah, this is a terrorist attack being planned against the Western United States." By then, Mktad was in the wind. >> Well, he left for lunch, never came back. >> Never came back. I >> think he was alerted, I'm assuming. >> Yeah. That all these people are in his >> Yeah. >> So, Ali asked him, "What about we we know this guy? He wanted to use planes as missiles just like they did on 911." And I was laughed at him and said, "You don't know who Mktar is?" And he said,

[21:19] "No." And he said Mktar's name is Khaled Shik Muhammad. We had never heard that name before. And so we start doing our research. Who is this guy? Khales Shake Muhammad. This guy graduated from North Carolina State University. >> He was here in the States. >> Yeah. >> And >> he came here as an exchange student, stayed with an American family, went to North Carolina State, and just came to hate the United States so much. >> Do we know why? Do do we know what his

[21:50] >> you know it was this warped view of Islam and what Islam should be and and the bottom line for all these guys is the closeness of US relations with Israel. They hate >> told me he told me that that what did it for him? What made him go from just some guy, you know, who might throw a rock during a demonstration to, you know, trying to assist the the most dangerous terrorist group in

[22:21] the world was watching a news report that showed an Israeli soldier with his boot on the neck of a Palestinian grandmother and he decided, "These Jews have to die." >> Wow. But that's the whole basis of this. >> Well, speaking of KSM, were you at the agency when we caught him? >> Yeah. >> Were you a part of that? >> Uh, no. I had just moved up to the deputy director's office, but >> go I I wanted to ask how did we find KSM

[22:52] intelligence? I'm assuming >> human source intelligence, >> not torture. >> No, no, no, no, no. Good. >> Cuz we got him in Pakistan, too. Yeah, he was in Ra Pendi. >> Okay. And how long was he on the run for? Because he was after uh Abu Zabeta, correct? >> Yeah, we caught up in March of 20 of 2002. And we caught

[23:25] KSM. I'm going to say it was August of 2002. >> Okay. >> Or September, something like that. See, but this is listen, if you boil down the job of the CIA to its simplest form. The mission of the CIA is to recruit spies to steal secrets and then to analyze those secrets so that the policy maker can make the best informed policy.

[23:56] It's really that simple. You can't rely on NSA to just grab everybody's phone calls out of the air and tell you where the bad guys are. You have to have a human source that's in the meeting. That's the only way that you can destroy these groups. >> And how [clears throat] do you find source? What what to find a source on KSM or because I'm sort of they're radicals. What are they looking for? or way out normally or they come to that

[24:26] some of that like hey this isn't this isn't right they have that you know awakening okay >> sometimes >> most of the time it's cash on the barrel head >> okay >> you know we had we had a $10 million uh bounty on a beta >> $10 million in cash is very heavy >> very heavy >> and it it takes multiple you know >> Yeah I couldn't lift gym bags >> and we were very happy to deliver the money. There was 25 million on KSM. Very

[24:59] happy to give the guys money. >> Gets delivered right away, >> immediately. And if necessary, along with resettlement >> and relocating ID, >> whatever they need to keep the guy safe. >> Wow. And they'll do that for the rest of the guy's life >> or Yeah. >> They'll set him up. I mean it's not unusual for us to say all right what country you want to live in just name the country and then we do it >> even if they said the states you would

[25:30] re >> wow >> it it's you know really really crazy when you were at the agency um before you went to uh you know 911 and you know I wanted to talk to that you spent some time in other Middle Eastern countries and >> we're doing this interview, you know, what was the, you know, before that were you doing any operations that got the blood flowing like Abu Zaber doing

[26:01] interesting stuff or were you doing more analysis and >> Oh, no. I mean, my first couple of tours, Kuwait, uh, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, those were analytic tours and actually Bahrain, I was I was actually secunded to the State Department. So it was a legit state department job. >> Uh it was in the middle of 97 that I switched to counterterrorism operations. So I had to go through the operational training first and because I was already mid-career. You didn't have to start at the beginning with what we call CIA 101.

[26:32] >> Okay. >> I was already there for seven and a half years. I I knew what the CIA did. >> And so I had I I was able to skip all that silly entry level stuff and go straight to operations. Um, instead instead [clears throat] of being trained for 18 months, I was trained for six months. >> Okay. >> And then they mix it up between operational training, um, weapons, explosives, and counterterrorism driving. >> And then surveillance and surveillance detection. You do a lot a lot of that as

[27:05] well. I actually became a surveillance instructor. >> Okay. >> At the agency. >> Any tips for surveillance? I mean, how do you know if like cuz you know I I I've all my my my wife will tell you she's I call it her spidey senses and you know I've often wondered like hey how do you tell if you're actually being followed or surveiled by somebody it's it's clear [clears throat] >> yeah you have to constantly be aware of your surroundings constantly scan your side view rearview mirrors and there's a definition a formal definition of

[27:35] surveillance multiple sightings at time and distance >> okay >> so if you see the same people at different times of the day at different locations. You're under surveillance. >> You're under surveillance. >> Okay. >> So after 97, then I was I went on my first operational tour to Athens. Okay. >> In '98. I was there for two years. >> Went back to headquarters, then back to the Middle East to Abu Dhabi. Um and

[28:07] then back to headquarters for 911. >> Abu Dhabi. What's that like? >> It's beautiful. >> It's beautiful, right? >> It's magnificent. >> Peaceful country. >> Oh, very peaceful. I actually prefer Abu Dhabi to Dubai. Everybody raves about Dubai. It's Yeah. And Dubai is great. >> But Abu Dhabi has culture where Dubai doesn't. >> I like Doha a lot too. The capital ofQatar. >> Yeah, because I'm a big UFC fan and they had Fight Island and I've was watching I was like, you know, we need to go to Dubai. Maybe someday. It is magnificent.

[28:39] And you can fly direct non-stop from DC, from New York, from Chicago. >> Yeah. And they're Americanized in a way. >> Very much so. >> Very. Yeah. >> Very much so. >> Are is that a Muslim country still? >> Yeah. >> Are the women walking around? Is that what >> mostly not? No. >> Okay. >> Um the police cars >> Mhm. >> are Lamborghinis. >> Ain't that crazy? >> It's nuts. >> Isn't that crazy? The the money that they have. So you're at [clears throat] the CIA, 9/11 happens, you leave the CIA and and

[29:10] I want to talk about, you know, so what what h what started your trials? Not, you know, the trial, but what started the CIA coming after you tribulations? >> Your tribulations. Yeah. >> Um when I got back from Pakistan, I was asked if I wanted to be trained in the torture techniques. I was one of 14 people approached. I was the only one who said no. I believed it was illegal. Clearly, obviously illegal. I [snorts] don't care what the White House said, it was illegal. >> Was the redheaded devil trained in the

[29:41] torture program? >> She was the founder, the creator of the torture program. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And so, um, I objected to it internally. I said, "This is immoral. It's illegal. It's unethical. We shouldn't be in the practice of torturing people." And in retrospect, I was right. That's why literally nobody has been brought to justice because everything they said, they said as a result of torture and not a word of it can be used against them in

[30:12] court. >> Are you serious? >> None of KSM Abu and we'll get to because I I know mom, you know, cuz uh I think you were talking to Abu Zaba's attorney >> or or had him on your podcast or or whatnot. Will those guys ever be sentenced? >> Never. They'll never be sentenced because they can never be charged with a crime. >> Will they ever get out? >> No. >> Beta might. >> Uh at the very end of the Biden administration, they were pretty deep in talks to release him. You know, finally

[30:44] acknowledging that he was just the wrong guy. He's been in prison for 23 years. >> Wow. >> And the only thing that they were waiting on was they were they were trying to find a country that would accept him. And then Trump won. And so four more years he's just gonna have to sit it out and wait. >> What's his day-to-day life like now? Do you think >> it's like Groundhog Day? There's there's no more torture going on at Guantanamo, but it's just like Groundhog Day. You know, one funny thing was when it

[31:17] appeared that a deal was was going to be made, Khalik Muhammad, Ramsey Benes, Amar, Alaluch, there might have been one more. They were going to plead guilty to um >> war crimes, >> terrorism. >> Terrorism. >> Yep. and terrorism and conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and they were going to agree to life

[31:47] without parole. So the government took the death penalty off the table and the only thing that they asked was if they could stay in Guantanamo because the weather's so good. They didn't want to go to the supermax in Florence, Colorado. And then Biden's um secretary of defense threw the whole deal out. Why do you think that is? >> Because he wasn't a part of the negotiations and he was pissed off that he didn't get to say >> what to Okay.

[32:18] >> Yeah. So, he threw it out. >> The attorneys sued >> and the attorneys lost. So, now there's no deal. We're back to square one. We're back to where we were in 2002. >> Who's paying to house them at Guantanamo Bay? We are. >> Yeah, of course. >> How many prisoners are at Guantanamo Bay? I think it's down to like 34 and about half of them are awaiting resettlement. Yeah. >> Just waiting for other countries to accept them. >> Really? >> You don't think these guys would

[32:49] recommmit? >> No. >> KSM, you don't think, >> you know, at the max we had over 700 and almost every single one of them was innocent of any crime. >> Are you Are you serious? >> Yeah. You see, let's say you and I live in Afghanistan. >> Yeah. >> And I borrow money from you, right? >> Yeah. >> I don't want to pay you back. So, I call the Americans. I say, "Hey, uh, yeah, this guy over here, al-Qaeda, they grab you. We never see you again, and I don't have to pay back that loan." >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> And we just wanted a pound of flesh.

[33:19] >> They were innocent. So, most have been released. There are about 17 who will never be released. Even in the Senate torture report, in one of the footnotes, it said that Abu Zuba shall never be released ever. He shall never be able to speak to the media and when he dies, he'll be cremated and his ashes will be thrown into the Caribbean. >> Why don't they want him talking to the media? >> Because we

[33:50] >> Well, well, yeah. No, I'm I'm being sarcastic. He drew um pictures of himself being tortured >> and they classified the pictures top secret. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've heard stories about putting cockroaches and a diaper on him and put him in a coffin and [clears throat] >> for weeks just dump cockroaches. >> I just don't think how anybody could think you would get somebody to I would tell you what the [ __ ] ever you wanted to hear just to make it stop. >> Yeah.

[34:20] >> I mean, >> and that's what he did. That's why most of the information that he gave after Ali Safan was all nonsense. >> What was the other guy involved in the torture program from the CIA? Not John Brennan. Jose or >> Jose Rodriguez. >> What's that guy? He retired from the CIA. Decorated, right? >> He lives down in uh he lives down in um St. Augustine, Florida, next to Rick Prao, who was the head of the special activities division. Um they lived literally next door to each other. And

[34:52] um he's living fat and happy on his >> They'll never be brought to justice. >> No. Never. Never. Never. >> But we all and I'm not making this about religion. I'm a Catholic. But we all will face judgment someday. >> Whatever you believe. >> Sure we will. I I believe that Jose Rodriguez is a psychopath. >> Psychopath. >> He if you look if you look at the at the events that took place over the course of his career, he was on the wrong side of the issue. dozens of times,

[35:22] reprimanded countless times, and then responsible for the torture program. And he wants America to think that he's some kind of hero. >> Absolutely. >> So, you you do an interview with Brian Ross, right? And when you get called for that interview, what are what you're your he says you you know you tortured Abu Zada, you know what what made you agreed to talk to him without a >> reason why I agreed to talk to Brian Ross and I I made a mistake. I made a

[35:53] couple of mistakes. One, I didn't have my attorney with me. >> I would never do that again. >> But two, the information that I had been given at the agency was also wrong. It was that Aba Beta had been waterboarded once and he broke. He wasn't waterboarded once. He was waterboarded 83 times. So, I was wrong about that. But that was the lie that was circulating among us. But I actually wasn't going to talk to Brian. And then in the days after he called me,

[36:24] President Bush gave a press conference and one of the reporters asked him about torture and he looks in the camera and he goes, "We do not torture." I said to my wife, "He's a bald-faced liar." Just look at the American people in the eye. Lying. And then a couple of days later, it was a Friday, he walks out the south portico of the White House, the back door of the White House to walk to the helicopter and fly to Camp David. And a reporter

[36:56] shouts a question at him. And he turns and he says, "Well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer." I said to my wife, "Brian Ross's source is at the White House and they're going to try to pin this on me. I'm going to defend myself." And so I decided I'd give Brian Ross his interview and I would just simply tell the truth and that's what I did. >> And after that you get a job working for John Kerry which you you talk about. I

[37:27] mean and what is uh before we're getting to this you know what is Carrie like? You know you've been around all these politicians. >> What is Carrie like when there's no cameras? There's >> you you spent time with him in a room like this. I'm sure there's nobody but you two. What would you describe his leadership style and personality like? >> A couple nights before I left for prison, >> okay? >> I I emailed Carrie at his private email

[37:58] and I said, "Senator, I'm begging you. Please help me. Ask the president to commute my sentence. The conviction would still stand, but I could work and and put food on the table for my family. I have five kids. >> Wow. >> And he writes me back and all he said was, "Please do not ever attempt to contact me again." >> That's John Kerry. >> Wow. >> Wow. He married a Hines, I believe. Right. >> He married Senator John Hines's widow.

[38:29] >> The ketchup factory people from Pittsburgh. >> Yeah. She was married to John Hines, who was the grandson of the founder of Hines Ketchup. >> Yeah. And um I mean he was worth close to a billion dollars and died in a plane crash >> and as soon as he died Carrie just zeroed right in on her. >> He talks about uh you know the environment but yet he flies his private jet all over. >> When I was working for him he bought this yacht and it wasn't even just a yacht. It was like an oceangoing ship, right? He represents Massachusetts

[39:01] represented Massachusetts in the in the Senate and he docked the yacht in Rhode Island. Why? Because Massachusetts had a yacht tax. >> Yeah. >> Well, you're worth a billion dollars. Pay your [ __ ] taxes. Yeah. >> So, the press just beat him up over it. And a couple of us went to the to the uh chief of staff. We said, "This is a very bad look. Just tell him pay the tax." And so, this dragged on for a couple of

[39:32] weeks. Finally, he just took the yacht back to Massachusetts and he paid the tax. But, you know, are all rich people that cheap? Just pay your tax. >> Yeah, we have to. >> He He bought everybody in the office a Christmas present one time. Uh, it was Christmas of 2009 and it was a bottle of wine and uh I didn't recognize the wine and I've I've subscribed for 25 years to Wine Spectator magazine. I love it. Okay.

[40:03] >> My wife and I bought we built a a wine seller, a climate controlled wine seller in our in our house. [clears throat] We know about wine. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I was like, I never saw this wine before. >> And I know I shouldn't have, but I Googled it. >> Yeah. >> It's a $10 bottle of wine >> wine. >> Like, really? >> You're worth a billion dollars and and you [ __ ] Did he try to say, "Oh, that's a $100 bottle of wine. >> Merry Christmas." Thank you. So, John Brennan, how does he get to

[40:35] where, hey, he says, "Charge him." How do we get there? What What he just didn't like you? You and him didn't get along. >> John and I never liked each other. I met John in 1990. I didn't like him. He didn't like me, but I stayed on my side of the room and he stayed on his. Um it's a very long story but the the upshot is that there was a wave of retirements in 2007 2006 where you know the war on terror terror

[41:07] was going to drag on for >> burned out people were burned out >> burned out ready to go you've already done 30 35 years 911's 5 years behind us time to retire of the hundreds of people that retired Half of them went to the John McCain campaign. Half of them went to the Hillary Clinton campaign. John Brennan was literally the only one who went to the Barack Obama campaign. >> Okay. >> So, he became Obama's guy.

[41:37] Uh when Obama won the race, Obama initially named him CIA director, but the liberals just threw a fit and so he withdrew that nomination and made Brennan deputy national security adviser for counterterrorism >> because you don't need a confirmation. >> Correct. Exactly. And then four years later, the liberals have forgotten why they were so mad. Then he became the CIA director. But John was the most powerful national security figure in the Obama administration. Yeah.

[42:08] >> And so he insisted that the Justice Department prosecute me for my uh my revelations about torture. >> When you find out they're coming after you, what are you thinking? I mean, you're a patriot. I mean, and and and and I and I mean that. And the CIA is you protect us. You do. You do things that keep us safe. When I'm a kid, my children now, my wife, even me, you there's something going on. You You've been there. you done at across the world

[42:38] that could really hurt the American people and you handle it and we never hear about it, you know, and you don't get any glory and and and I mean no disrespect. That's cool. >> Yeah. >> They ask you even in the in the application pro uh process if you're comfortable not receiving recognition for your victories and everybody's like, "Yeah, nobody cares." >> Yeah. So, what are you thinking though? They're they're coming after you. You think, you know, I mean, >> my head was spinning

[43:08] >> because you never been You've probably never had a speeding ticket or anything in your [ __ ] life. >> Nothing. Nothing. >> And if you did, I'm sure you could make it go away like that. >> I never did. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um I I I couldn't believe it. But they they hit me with a concrete block from the beginning. I was facing 45 years in prison. >> Holy [ __ ] And so I mean the the most important conversation that you have with yourself is should I kill myself? You maybe I should 45 years. I can't. I'm I'm 50 years old.

[43:41] >> Your kids are grown up. >> Am I in prison? >> Yeah. 100. You're Yeah. Yeah. Your wife's moved on and probably have somebody else. Your kids don't know you. I mean, >> but my wife was such a great supporter >> and I I mean 70 former CIA and FBI officers came together to support me. >> No kidding. >> They signed a letter to the president asking him to to pardon me before I ever went to trial. >> And this is Obama >> under Obama. And um and I was blessed

[44:13] with the best attorneys in Washington. >> Yes. See, um, and side note, so you had Plato >> Cacher that, so once I heard of your story, well, heard who you were and and like you were on a podcast. We're watching the uh documentary on A&E about Monica Lewinsky and all of a sudden I heard that name and I'm like, what the [ __ ] Thank you. You know, so and >> was a killer in when I mean a killer, I meant a [ __ ] defense attorney. That guy was a shark. A [ __ ] shark. He was

[44:45] described in the Washington Post when my attorneys announced that they were representing >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> It was Plato Cateras uh uh Mark McDougall from Aken Gump and Strauss and Bob uh >> I don't know. I I >> What What's wrong with me? >> Please, you have to edit this. >> Go. Yeah. Um Bob Trout. Okay.

[45:16] >> Okay. So my my three lead attorneys were Plato Catereras and Bob Trout of Trout Cacheras and Mark McDougall from Aken Gump and Strauss. Mark Mark was the the director of white collar defense at Aken Gump which is one of the biggest law firms in the world. >> Okay. >> Not just in America. >> Defense law criminal law or only >> criminal defense. >> Okay. probably thou I mean I don't know they're probably $5,000 $10,000 an hour >> at the time. Yeah. They were $2,000 an hour which I didn't have.

[51:59] other district in America, I'd say, let's go for it. We're going to win this thing. This case is shit." He said, 'But the Eastern District of Virginia, your jury is going to be made up of people from the CIA or with relatives at the CIA, DoD, Homeland Security, FBI, intelligence community contractors. You don't have a prayer. He said, "Take the deal." I >> think that was a part of their strategy, DOJ, to have it in. Yeah. >> And it wasn't just for me.

[52:29] >> They charge almost everybody, every national security. >> So Snowden in his turn. He's already been charged in the Eastern District of Virginia. >> And Julian Assange was in the Eastern District of Virginia. And >> Zacharias Mousawi, the 20th hijacker, whatever his name was. And uh Oh, there are a couple of other people. They're all charged in EDBA. They call it the espionage court because no national security defendant has ever won a case there. >> Yeah. >> Never. >> And you plead guilty. And what month is

[53:02] that? I I changed my plea in October of 2012. I was formally sentenced in January of 2012. And I reported to prison on February 28th, 20. >> So, they gave you a little bit of time with your family before you went to prison. >> Yeah. >> And I'm sure you're nervous, right? What is that time, if you don't mind talking about it, before you leave for prison? Like, >> tell you the truth. Yeah. You would think that I would be a nervous wreck. to tell the truth. I felt a sense of relief >> that it's going to be over. >> It's going to be over and there's

[53:33] there's an end in sight. I mean, 30 months is the max. I'm going to get out at 23 months with good behavior, but I stood a chance at 6 months of home confinement, which I didn't get because they screwed me. But >> I thought, you know, I could I could do 23 months on my head. >> Yeah. You were in [ __ ] Pakistan. Some of the places that you can't tell us about what >> [clears throat] >> You have children and you know were all of them at home still at at

[54:04] >> No. Um my three youngest were still at home. My two oldest were in college. >> How was that? You know cuz I'm a father. >> Terrible >> there. You know even me this tough guy. Um hell I cry sometimes leaving my kids for 5 days to go away to work. >> But uh I'm sure that was hard for you. part was >> the kids were little. They were like nine nine, seven, and one.

[54:35] And so the hardest part was trying to explain to them. So, you know, trying to put it in in kids language, I said, you know, I've been fighting with the FBI for a long time now, and I'm sorry to say that I lost the fight. So, I'm going to have to go to Pennsylvania, and I'm going to teach bad guys how to get their high school diploma. And when I finish that, I'm going to come back and everything's going to be good again.

[1:01:19] guy walking right toward me, beard down to his waist. He's got his hand out like this. And I went like this and I said, "Don't [ __ ] touch me." Like that. And as I'm looking at him, I happen to look to the side of him and one of the guards is on the outside of the fence with a camera with a long-distance lens going. So I had my hands up and I said, "Don't [ __ ] touch me and don't ever try to speak to me." He said, "Come on, man. We

[1:01:49] have a lot in common." I said, "We have nothing in common other than I tried to kill people like you. Get the [ __ ] away from me." And he's like, "Oh, come on. Come on." And then finally he walked away. And then the guard had nothing nothing to send back to the CIA or DOJ. >> So you you get out, you know, what what's it like your you know what what what was your first couple of days reaclimating back into >> Well, that's that's a problem. People

[1:02:20] think that you can just step back into >> [ __ ] no. I mean, I I I've never done it, had to do it, but there's no way. You are a character, I'm sure, of a creature by habit, by routine, and I'm sure your routine changed drastically from home life to prison, and now you're back in home life. I'm sure it took a while to get readapted. >> I had I had a couple of months of uh three months of uh house arrest, which means you cannot leave the confines of the four walls of your house. You can't go in the front yard or the backyard or

[1:02:51] the stoop inside the house. >> You go crazy. >> That's worse than [ __ ] prison, right? >> Way worse than prison. Way worse. >> And then they call you quite literally 24 hours a day to give your name, your prisoner number, and your social security number because they want to make sure that you haven't left. So, um on top of that, you got to go into this [ __ ] uh what do you call it? the halfway house and check in once a week and then drug testing twice a week. I've never

[1:03:23] taken a drug in my life. I'm happy to waste as much of your time and the government's money as I possibly can, but you're wasting my time, too. So, it was it was very difficult to transition back to home life. Very difficult. But and the bigger problem for me was I just couldn't find a job. Nobody is willing to hire a a convicted felon. >> Nobody. >> And so, you know, I I briefly worked for a a think tank in Washington just doing

[1:03:55] criminal justice issues. >> What is a think tank? Um >> it's a group of academics that, you know, writes papers and gives about the issues of the day. >> And uh I did that for about a year and then I just realized this just isn't going to work. I'm going to have to work for myself. And then I ended up getting an offer for a radio show. I I took that. I did the radio show for seven years. And then that led to podcast after podcast after podcast,

[1:04:25] which led to my own TV show. And now I've been out of prison for 13 years. Is that right? >> No. 11 years. Yes. I've been out for 11 years. And um yeah, I have my own successful podcasts. I have my own successful TV show. I write columns. I just finished writing my ninth book. And um and I I made the right decision to just work for myself.

[1:04:55] >> Yeah. >> That's really the only way you can s you can succeed. >> Yeah. How much longer you got, bud? >> It's it's almost 10. >> Yeah. >> And I got to catch that early flight to LA. >> You tell me. I mean >> Yeah. Can we wrap it up? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, now that you're doing your podcast, you know, and you you sat down and and spoke with me, uh, where where can people find you? >> Oh, thanks for asking. So, um, I've got a website, johnkuryaku.com, but where I post most everything. I mean, I'm on Facebook and X and LinkedIn

[1:05:27] and Instagram and all that stuff, but I've got uh a podcast called called uh Deep Focus. That's on YouTube. I have one every day called Deprogram. Monday through Friday that's on YouTube and Rumble and one on Apple podcast called John Kuryaku's Dead Drop which goes into granular detail about my whole life in the CIA. >> Okay. Well, thank you. Appreciate it.
