Title: \"Never Trust the Government\" (resolves a Batch-4 lead)
Show: The Pocket (Chris Griffin)
Date: 2026-07-06
URL: https://youtu.be/PKficzm5-8g
Duration: 72:00

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[00:00] John Kiriakou, welcome to the show. Thanks, good to be with you. If you knew that whistleblowing would have resulted in 23 months in prison, would have you done it? I would have done it, but I would have done it differently. And this is something that I that I advise would-be whistleblowers to do. The The big big mistake I made was just going out and speaking. I tell people don't say a word until you have an attorney sitting in the chair next to you to advise you. And not just an attorney, but somebody skilled in

[00:30] whistleblower defense. Somebody who can really advise you on what to say, how to say it, what words to leave out, what words to couch. And you know, you need that kind of advice to protect yourself. In what way? Like what parts of what you did made you not protected? You know, at the end of the day, in my own case, they wanted to get me and they were going to get me. For me personally, there was probably nothing that I could have done to save myself, not really. There's a

[01:01] wonderful book, and forgive me for digressing, there's a great book called uh Three Felonies a Day by Dr. Harvey Silverglate. He's a professor of law at Harvard University. And he argues that we are so overly criminalized in the United States, so overly regulated, that the average American on the average day, going about his or her normal business, commits three felonies every single day. The point being, if they want to get you, they're going to get you. For me, you know, at first they accused me of espionage because they said that the

[01:32] torture program was a top secret program. In fact, it's illegal to classify a crime for the purpose of keeping it from the American people. So, I don't think it would have held up in court anyway, but they were determined to get me. They got me on a minor charge. That's the price I had to pay. When when that happened and you were getting sentenced to prison, what was going on in your mind back then? Like what were you thinking? >> You know, I kind of alternated between periods of feeling sorry for myself

[02:03] and periods of defiance. Um My ex-wife said something that turned out to be really true and very helpful. She said, "They have consistently underestimated your resolve. And if they thought this was going to keep you silent, they didn't know you at all." And that really was the truth. And so I thought, "Well, they made me kind of infamous at least in transparency and and um government circles. So, I'm going to I'm

[02:34] going to use my access to the media and just do the best that I can to spread my message." My ex-wife told me another thing that turned out to be very important. She said, "You have to keep talking about this because eventually they're going to move on to their next victim, which they did. It was Ed Snowden. And if you keep talking about it, your side of the story will be the side of record." And so that's what I did, and she was right. >> Mhm. So, that was a big reason why you doubled down? >> Well, then there was a third reason

[03:04] though, actually. >> [laughter] >> At at my sentencing in October of 2012, my attorneys asked the judge to sentence me to a minimum security work camp. No bars on the windows, no locks on the doors. You're free to come and go as you please. You're just on your honor not to abscond. And the plan was I would probably do about 20 months. Was going to keep my head down, keep my mouth shut, do my 20 months, and go home.

[03:34] But the CIA was furious that my sentence was so short. And so they asked the uh Bureau of Prisons to put me in an actual prison. So, when I got there to turn myself in at the camp, they said, "No, no, you're across the street." And I thought, "Okay, you're trained for this. You can handle it. And then I thought, you know what? If they're going to try to screw me, I'm going to screw them right back as best I can using my constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of press. And so that's what I did.

[04:06] >> [laughter] >> I mean, it's not like I had anything to lose. >> Yeah, I I guess that's the pace that I was leaning into next is is like what's the alternative? Like sitting there and then like you've already come this far and so I cuz when you're speaking there, I'm putting myself in in your shoes and going like, hey, like what would I do? And I guess that there's something there's something in that way like you are going to get older and you're going to think about all the things that you didn't do and that would be one of the one of them, especially after it being exposed to what you were exposed to like

[04:37] and being able to hide that. Do you think that when you said earlier around like if they want to get you, they'll get you because we're always we're committing felonies all the time. If they want to get you, they'll get you. Why do you think that they want to get you so bad? Oh, I aired the dirty laundry in public. Yeah, that was an easy [clears throat] one. They were absolutely livid. It was one thing to decline the torture training. It's an entirely different thing to go public about it. They were furious. >> So did they ever come out and say what they

[05:08] were doing was wrong? >> Yeah, finally in 2018 when Gina Haspel was named CIA director in her confirmation hearings before the Senate Intelligence Committee she apologized for the torture program. Which is funny because she was the godmother of the torture program. But in response to Senator Warner of Virginia, his question on whether or not it was a mistake, she said, yes, it was a mistake and it shouldn't have been done.

[05:40] >> And obviously you doubling down came with a lot of really wild crazy stories and we can definitely unpack some of them today. But why do you think people don't believe in your stories? >> Oh, I think people believe in my stories. I do. I mean, you're going to get trolls every once in a while. Um, and to tell you the truth, uh, there are a lot of stupid people out there. A lot. Like I saw one I saw one comment the other day, the guy said, "Oh, he took credit for everything the

[06:10] CIA ever did." It's like, [ __ ] I only talk about the period from, you know, 1990 to 2004, and only the things I was involved in, and only the Middle East. So, you can't you can't please everybody. And another thing, you know, if you don't like the stories or the shorts or the podcast, don't [ __ ] listen to them. It's as simple as that. >> [clears throat] >> I'm fascinated to know this because

[06:41] obviously, you said you're airing that dirty laundry, which means they're doing stuff that's dirty behind the scenes. And my guess would be that they're not stopping that. It's still continuing to go on. When you got sentenced and when you were in prison, was there any other stuff that you just kept being exposed to where you're going like, "Whoa, like this is so messed up." >> On a on a daily basis. >> On a daily basis. >> in prison? >> Yeah, in prison. >> yeah. Yeah, on a daily basis. >> In what way? >> And that actually got me into a a little bit more trouble

[07:12] with the Bureau of Prisons. And in which case I told them, "Bring it. Bring it." Um, the Bureau of Prisons is quite literally the most corrupt, most criminalized entity I've ever encountered in government. And I spent 20 years in government, more than 20 years. Um, listen, when you can just pretend that the laws don't apply to you, because who's the court going to believe? this convict or the uniformed prison guard?

[07:45] Well, I know what the truth is. I know how how corrupt these prison guards are, smuggling in drugs and phones and tobacco and accepting bribes. I mean, we see it every day. Listen, when when just as an example, you get a shipment of let's say a pallet of Pop-Tarts to the to the commissary, okay? The giant pallet of a thousand boxes of Pop-Tarts shows up. And then one of the prison guards backs

[08:15] up his Ford F-150 pickup truck to the loading dock and steals the entire pallet of Pop-Tarts and then puts it all on Facebook Marketplace or eBay to sell. And the same with batteries and the same with A&D ointment and the same with bags of Starkist tuna. That's crime. It's a felony. When you've got two um a special investigative service officers who call me down to tell me that this Kurdish prisoner called a number in

[08:46] Pakistan and they told him to kill me, right? And then they tell him that I called a number in Washington and they told me to kill him, hoping that we kill each other. That's a felony. But I'm the bad guy for reporting it to the Huffington Post and writing about it. >> Do you feel like part of your mission would then be to be normalizing the discussion and not making it as taboo? Like I feel >> Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. >> Because I feel I feel there's there's

[09:17] there's this nature of saying things about like the deep state or saying saying saying conspiracies and all this stuff and people go like, "Oh, no, no, no, don't talk about that. You're crazy." Do you feel like a big part about about it is like actually normalizing it so that they cannot get away with as much? >> You know, in a lot of ways that to me that's an apples and oranges situation. Although, I will acknowledge that a lot of things that people thought were crazy conspiracies have turned out to be true.

[09:48] We thought the COVID lab leak story was a crazy conspiracy. It turned out to be true. Nobody understood the depth of the Jeffrey Epstein situation. Much of that turned out to be true. Um even things like Pizzagate, elements of Pizzagate turned out to be true. So, sure. There there are a lot of things like that. Uh the deep state's real. I think uh I think the only the only place you're going to hear that it's not real is MSNBC or MS Now or whatever they're calling themselves this week. Uh

[10:19] only because they've completely bought into the deep state. I don't call it the deep state. I call it the federal bureaucracy. The state. You can call it whatever you want. It exists. You know, I say all the time when when you've got CIA, NSA, DIA, FBI, NSC officials who serve for 25, 30, 35 years knowing that presidents come and go every four or eight years. And nobody elects these bureaucrats.

[10:51] That's the deep state. It's a fact. Whether we like to admit it or not. >> And when we reference the deep state, what specifically are we referencing that they're doing? >> Uh it depends kind of what you're interested in. In my case, of course, it was all about torture. They denied that there was any torture program until I came out and called them liars and then they admitted that there was. There was another whistleblower, we'll never know who it was, who went public

[11:21] with the information on the secret prison system. Uh we only learned from a whistleblower that there was an international rendition program. We only learned of uh of the international assassination program thanks to a leak to the Atlantic Monthly. So, there's a lot out there that the deep state is doing. >> I discovered something really interesting the other day and it was the fact that most podcast listeners eventually have this one thought, what if I started my own show? In fact, there was a study that shows that one in every

[11:52] four podcast listeners want to start their own podcast and that was me only a short few years ago thinking about starting my own show and fast forward to now we went from zero to getting over 30 million views a month. My whole life has changed. I get to be in rooms with people I don't deserve to be in rooms with and that's all thanks to podcasting. Podcasting changed my life so much and I know everyone that wants to start a show if they start it, it can change their life too, which is why I created Pod Pro. Pod Pro is the greatest

[12:23] podcast school in the world and the reason I can say that with so much confidence is it's because it's the only school that has experts and podcasters leading the way. People that are walking the walk. If you are a podcaster or an aspiring podcaster that is looking to launch your show, then Pod Pro is for you. You can go to the link in the description or the show notes below or go to thepodpro.com/apply and you can put in your details and my team will reach out to you directly. Once again, go to the link in the description or the show notes below or go to thepodpro.com/apply.

[12:56] Let's get right back to the show. >> So, you you mentioned that there's whistleblowers that we don't know of. Why do we not know of them? >> They've never gone public. >> And the and the media have have protected their identities. >> Hm. Which is again part of the s- part of the whole messaging and everything just to protect the identities. >> You have to protect the identities. You know, when you've got a whistleblower protection law like we have in this country, that does not

[13:26] protect national security whistleblowers, there's a problem. If you're Listen, if you're from the Department of Agriculture and you want to say something about waste, fraud, and abuse in, you know, grain pricing, knock yourself out. You're going to be a big hero, you'll be on 60 Minutes. If you're from CIA, FBI, NSA, DoD, you're going to go to prison, probably under the Espionage Act, and nobody's going to be able to help you. How's that fair? >> It's so fascinating and I do want to make this personal. I feel like we can take this in a bit of a different angle

[13:58] to a lot of the other shows you you go on. You've been through things that most people could not even imagine, like the CIA, federal prison, losing everything just for telling the truth, but none of that gave you PTSD. From the scans you did, the thing that you get the most PTSD from is your divorce. >> Right. >> You've referenced your ex-wife before. Why, out of everything, is the divorce the most hard-hitting thing you've been through?

[14:28] >> I'm prohibited by court order from talking about my ex-wife in any kind of detail, but I think I can still answer your question. Um it's that I was one of those people at This was not unusual, but I was one of those people who was able to compartmentalize. The job was the job and home life was home life. And um I knew that as hard as the job got, I always had home I could go to. And then I didn't have home.

[14:59] And that's what kind of did me in. That's what made it hard. >> Right. So, I guess you did a good job at being able to not be defined by your job. >> Oh, yeah. I worked hard at that. Yeah. >> W- When you say you worked hard at that, what do you mean? >> You have to have So many people make the CIA their entire existence. Everything in life is the CIA. They have two, three, four, five, six even marriages. Just because family's never the focus, it's always the job.

[15:31] I worked for a guy who I really liked and respected a lot. And while we were overseas, his mother died. He was so upset. He said that that he hadn't seen his mother five years because he had been overseas. And then when it was time for R&R, vacation, rest and relaxation, instead of going home to Ohio to see his ever-aging mother, he would go back to CIA headquarters and just keep reading in on cases and see what's going on and meeting and talking

[16:03] and visiting and he's like, what the heck was I thinking? And he said, now my mother's dead. I have I have nobody. Everybody's gone. And I remember thinking, boy, I don't want to end up like that. So many people do. Uh another thing, too, at the CIA, they like that the culture is closed. So they have affinity groups for every interest under the sun so that you never have to leave the CIA. We had a softball league. I played

[16:34] softball every year. We had a flag football league. We had an LGBTQ uh group. There was a choir. There was a quilting club. There was a cooking club. There was this one and that one and you know, you could buy baseball tickets, football tickets at the employee activity center. Anything you wanted to do in life, you could do it right there at the CIA. And I remember thinking, that's just not right. Yeah, I would play softball, but anything else, come on. What are you doing? But the idea behind it is that

[17:05] everybody's cleared and so you can talk about work while you're quilting or playing baseball or whatever. It's easier for everybody. And then you don't have to worry about security. >> Do you think there's anything behind that? Why do they make it so Why do they want you so stuck in the CIA? Like what's Because like if you mentioned before like there's so much power in having a home to go back to. Do you think there's something they're trying to do to not make you have a home? >> No, on the contrary. They want you to

[17:36] marry another CIA person. That way everybody's bought in. That way nobody questions why you're out all night long twice a week. You know? Um they encourage the culture encourages agency romances. I've said many times on podcast that I worked for a deputy director who was married five times and all five of his wives began as his secretary. And that's not unusual. That's just the culture. >> But surely as you mentioned you saw

[18:07] great power in being able to separate them. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. And so but what I'm fascinated to know is like why are they encouraging that? Is it because the people are going to do the job better? They're going to actually make sure that they >> Not even necessarily. I think it's that everybody's going to stay in line. It's much easier to control everybody when they're fully bought in. >> Right. So when you're in the CIA is there a series of things you like have to hide from people? Like you have to be very secretive about your life in a sense. And so if they can keep everyone in your family under the roof

[18:39] then there's less chance of it being leaked. >> Yeah. And there are CIA families. I worked with people where you know mother, father, two, three kids were all CIA. That's not unusual at all. I worked with three different guys whose dads had been either deputy director for operations or deputy director for intelligence. They love you know legacies. They love families because everybody's bought in. Um and you know you you you do have to

[19:10] lie to everybody at least to some extent, even when you're not formally undercover. When I was an analyst, I was not undercover. I was an overt employee. But, I just made it a practice of saying State Department when people asked me where I worked. I was living in Excuse [clears throat] me. I was living in Maryland at the time and became friendly with my next-door neighbor. And, uh he was a carpenter. And, he asked me where I worked. I said, "I'm at the State Department." And, "Oh, what do you do at the State Department?" Well, the training was you tell them something that sounds so boring that

[19:42] they won't ask any follow-up questions. So, I said that I was involved in training people in conducting trade negotiations. And, he's like, "Oh." And, then that was it, which was great. And, then one day I left for work. He left a couple of minutes after I did. And, I didn't notice, but he was following me all the way to work. Not on purpose, just because he was going in the same direction that I was going. And, he saw me pull off on the

[20:13] CIA exit. There's an exit that specifically goes directly into the CIA compound. And, then later that day he came over and he said, "Hey, I just wanted to ask you about something that I saw today that kind of struck me as funny." And, he said, "I I saw you pull into the CIA today." And, I said, "Buddy," I said, "just keep it between us, huh?" And, he was like, "I knew it. I knew nobody would have a job that was so boring that they loved so much." And, I said, "Well, you can see why I I don't want to talk about it."

[20:45] And, he respected it. >> Mhm. >> [gasps] >> I I just wanted to like I I think about connections in in life, right? Like the deepest connections that I have are the ones that kind of I feel like I can be an open book with. But, if you're constantly trying to hide the the things that you're doing and actually spending most of your time doing, do you find that it's harder to connect with people? >> I I never had trouble connecting with

[21:16] people, but sure. I I worked with others who had trouble connecting with people outside that community. I always had outside interests. Things that weren't CIA specific. Um in fact, one of my bosses complimented me one time after an operational meeting where he said that he'd never seen anybody able to speak on so many varied issues as I was. It was like baseball and opera and politics and I forget what the other one was. Um but just it was because I had these

[21:47] outside interests. There was more to life than just the CIA for me. And for for most case officers, there isn't. It's just the job. >> Yeah, I've seen you debate other former CIA officers. Um I interviewed one of them, Andrew Bustamante. What about their world view and your world view, do you feel differs? >> A lot. A lot. People ask me regularly if Andrew Bustamante is still on the CIA payroll.

[22:19] And I say, I have no idea. He sure sounds like he is, but I have no idea. I mean, if he loved the CIA so much and he was so important to the success of the CIA, why did he and his wife both resign? And why is he talking about fleeing the United States for another country? You'd have to ask him. >> Well, when I asked him on the show, I was

[22:49] I was explaining how like why he's mov- he he he wants to move and he and his whole reasoning was just about wanting his kids to experience a third world country so that they can appreciate America the most. >> Sure. I mean, who wouldn't want to get malaria when you're 6 years old? >> Makes you a stronger person, right? >> Jeez. >> What else do you do you feel like makes him defend his stance and defend the CIA so much? >> I think he's a true believer.

[23:19] I don't think he's a dissident in any way. I think he's just a he's a yes man for the CIA. May I add something? >> Yeah. >> Andrew also um I think he's trying to prove a lot to himself. He was never an operations officer. Never. I cringe every time I hear people say, "Andrew Bustamante walked the walk." Actually, no, no, he didn't. He was a special operations officer or staff operations officer. That's an assistant to the operations officers.

[23:51] So, this notion that he was running out there running around the world grabbing bad guys, kicking asses, and taking names is just simply not true. But listen, that's his that's his thing and he's going with it and it makes a handsome living for him, so God bless. I I'm that's none of my business. But I'm just saying that I don't think he's entirely honest. >> Mhm. How much is all of the decisions that get made involved around money and power? >> Inside the CIA? >> Yeah. >> At the higher levels, it's almost entirely about power.

[24:22] Not money. Money is ever flowing, never ending, bottomless pit of money. You never have to worry about money. There's going to be money for whatever you want to do. Um but once you get into the senior service, it's it's all about power and empire building, right? You you get to the senior service and you're going to constantly try to expand your empire so that it makes you prepared for the next higher level and the next one after that and after that. I I worked with a guy I worked with a guy when we were junior

[24:55] analysts together. He might have been one grade senior to me. I think he was actually cuz he came in with a PhD. And um 10 years later he's the associate deputy director. So for a lot of people it's just about the power. Another thing too, one of the one of the senior operations officers told me, a guy that I really really liked and respected and trusted, he said, you know, one of the things that he always hated was the people who rose through their

[25:25] career most quickly were the were the ones who spent the least amount of time overseas. So he said, you know, we say that the job of the CIA is to recruit spies to steal secrets. And that's true. But if you just want to get promoted over and over and over and over again, you stroke the important people back at headquarters. And you don't go overseas to recruit spies to steal secrets. >> Mhm. So I get what Okay, so the less travel you do, the more you can climb up the ranks. And so for people trying to climb

[25:57] up the ranks, it's not advantageous for them to leave. >> Uh there was a guy who was passed over for deputy director when I was there. He had been chief of like four four different giant stations. And I remember hearing his qualifications and saying to my boss, "Wow, he's done everything. Why didn't he get this job?" And the the insider that you see in the hall for the last 8 years, he's the one who got the job. And he said, "Because this guy's been overseas doing actual spy work, and at headquarters nobody's heard of

[26:27] him." Cuz he's overseas. But then the guy that's at home shaking hands and running to the White House two or three days a week, everybody's heard of him. So they're going to give him the job. It's not fair. It's antithetical to the way it should be. >> It's fascinating because isn't the primary goal of the CIA, I mean, I'm not fully educated it it, but like it's it's to protect the United States from everywhere else in the world? >> Yeah, it's to recruit spies to steal secrets

[26:58] and to analyze those secrets so that the policy maker can make the best informed policy. >> Yeah. See, one of the pieces that I didn't resonate with with Andrew Bustamante's worldview and we went back and forth on it a fair bit, um was was he he was saying that money's the only thing that matters, basically. And he was trying and he was explaining that money's the only objective measure of success. >> That's not true. >> And and >> See, but this is coming from a guy who never recruited a source in his entire

[27:29] career. >> Yeah, and and he's like, if your net worth is not over a million dollars, no one cares about you. And he went all along this whole thing and and we had a bit of back course and the way it ended was he was he was just calling me young and what do I know about the world? And but but the thing one of the things that I I just struggled with and and even from the very start of this conversation, you were explaining how that the reason the divorce hurt the most is because it was the thing that gave you a home to come back to which then shows that yeah, there's all the progressions and there's everything else in your career and all of that, but

[28:01] the real power for you, which is why it hurt the most, is the fact that you were able to separate yourself from that and actually build a a home and something that feels like the volume can turn down in your life, which has nothing to do with with with the money. And so, I guess do you think that that's an area where you guys would definitely disagree with your views? >> Yeah. Listen, Andrew simply doesn't know what he's talking about. It's not It's not the money at all. Not from any angle.

[28:31] Um yes, a majority of sources who agree to be recruited are doing it for the money. But there are many many many other reasons why people agree to be recruited. Many other reasons. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> With all due respect, he doesn't what he's talking about. >> Yeah. When you were like when you were in in service and you were um you're working with the CIA >> [sighs and gasps] >> was there any main things that caught you by surprise? Like before going into

[29:02] it and then you dive into the line of work that you were doing, like did Is there anything that like really shocked you? That like comes to your mind straight away? >> Really shocked me? Well, there were a couple of things, yeah, that really shocked me that I I can't talk about. There When I first joined as a junior junior analyst um yeah, there were there were some things. I remember the first four or five six weeks, I would just sit at my desk and say, "Wow."

[29:33] Like I had no idea. And then I I say something in my first book when I switched to operations um I'm sitting on one side of a partition and I'm going through thousands of pages of operational files on Greek terrorism. And I'm going through this file and I said, "Oh my god." And this voice from the other side of the partition, somebody I didn't know, says "You going through the Greek files?" And I said, "Yeah." And he says, "That's

[30:04] what everybody says when they go through the Greek files." And I was like, "Wow, >> [sighs and gasps] >> man." Like that was some bad [ __ ] in the '60s and '70s and the '80s. >> So why are you not able to share what you read in the files? >> Oh, it's still it's still They call it currently improperly classified. >> Damn. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And so what's the main reason that a lot of the information is hidden? Like what is the main reason? >> Mostly to protect sources and methods. If there's a CIA source, especially if

[30:37] that source is still alive, you have to protect the identity at all costs. >> Right, right. So So when the go and try and find the the the secrets and everything, they're finding the sources certain people, and to and to get the secrets out, they need to >> if if you're a CIA case officer, let's say, and you need to penetrate, you know, ISIS. You don't look like you could fit into ISIS. So, what you do is you recruit somebody who does fit into ISIS, or maybe is

[31:08] already in ISIS. And that's how you get your information. That's how you disrupt the next attack. You have that guy working for you, coming out and reporting back to you. It's the same everywhere. [clears throat] >> You mentioned on the Jack New podcast that like some of the different things that you used you saw like like drones that were in tiny little tiny little >> little dragonflies. >> little dragonflies and stuff. Was there any any times where you were on missions where you felt unsafe with what some of the other

[31:39] countries were doing? >> That's a good question. Um Not really. In In almost all the operations that I ever worked on, they were they were joint with liaison. So, we were working together. I mean, some some services, rather, are better than others. The Pakistanis weren't as technologically sophisticated as we

[32:11] were, for example. There are other countries I was working with where, you know, I just didn't trust them very much. And then there were some, especially in Middle East, where, you know, we trusted each other with our lives. But no, I never felt like I was in danger because of the service. There were a couple of odd events, I guess. I was working jointly with one service. And it's supposed to be joined. And I left my hotel, realized I'd forgotten my

[32:43] wallet. So, when I got to the exit of hotel, I turned around and went back to up to the room. There's a guy in my room. He's got my phone unscrewed. I said, "What are you doing?" He says, "Fixing the phone." I said, "There's nothing wrong with the phone." He says, "Now it works even better." I said, "Come on, you guys. We're supposed to be working together here. You're bugging my room? Why don't you bug the bad guys' room?" And I was just Well, I finally got to the meeting. I was like, "You have to stop. Either we're going to do this together or we're not." "What were they doing to your phone?"

[33:14] "Bugging it." "What does that mean?" "Putting a microphone in it." "The guy on your team?" "Yeah." Damn. Talk to me about trust then. Do you find and build great trust with the people you're working with or is there a lot of skepticism? Well, when with other CIA people, you mean? Or foreign liaison? Other CIA people? Oh, yeah, yeah. You have to trust each other with your lives. You have to. Right. But then the foreign people you obviously not trust. Yeah, you know, Ronald Reagan used to say trust but verify.

[33:46] So, you're going to trust the Brits, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders. They're the only ones that you trust for. The only ones. Everybody else you have to keep one eye open. Yeah. Yeah. So, just before we recorded, you mentioned that you know, you had a hard time with one of your sons thinking that you put him in a sticky situation and it it it kind of like made the relationship struggle a little

[34:17] bit from from that. Was that one of those things that like was that one of those negative things that happened from from you being the whistleblower? Like was that one of the things making it harder for your family? Yeah, that was that was one of the things. There there was a I put a great deal of pressure on my family by doing this. I didn't realize it was going to be the major international story that it was. I don't think any of us did. Um on either side, but it did. It took on a life of its own. And so it it

[34:47] caused a lot of pressure and a lot of friction. >> Was it a very thought out decision speaking up on it or was it >> Well, I mean I I considered it for a week. We talked about it for a week in advance. Should I do it? Should I not do it? And um >> Who's we? >> My my wife and I. And uh and I decided to do it. You know, in part I did it for selfish reasons, for self-preservation because a a reporter for ABC News had called me and said that he had heard

[35:17] from a source that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah, this Al-Qaeda prisoner. I said, "Absolutely untrue. I never laid a hand on him or on any other prisoner ever." But then it became apparent to me that the source was at the White House, that the story was leaking from somewhere, that there was this torture program, and that they were going to blame me. And I said, "Oh, no, you don't." And so I called them back and I said, "I'll give you your interview." And I decided just to tell the truth.

[35:47] Hm. Yeah. Yeah, I've said before, I wish I could say that, you know, I stood up for a moral purpose and I told them that and that wasn't it at all. They were just going to try to pin it on me and I was like, "Oh, no, you don't. I'm going to I'm going to come out first with the truth and let the American people make their decision who they believe." >> And is there anything you can share that the CIA doing that might be affecting

[36:18] just everyday people? >> Oh, I think that there are a million questions out there about tech. You know, post-9/11, the CIA got a congressional waiver to begin investing in tech companies beginning with Palantir. CIA was the very first investor in Palantir. CIA has a venture capital fund called In-Q-Tel, in which they invest billions of dollars, or have invested billions of dollars over the years in tech startups, so that they can use that tech in espionage. Well,

[36:48] is the tech being used against Americans? Ed Snowden says it is. Tom Drake says it is. Julian Assange says it is. You know, whistleblowers from the big tech companies, you know, Google and Yahoo and Twitter and Facebook and all these other ones, they say it is. I think it is. >> How do you think that plays out? The controlling what we see online? >> Probably in part. But what is more frightening to me

[37:20] is that the CIA and NSA are not allowed to spy on Americans, right? It's even a part of NSA's charter that it cannot spy on Americans. And they do spy on Americans. >> Yeah, do do you think they they cannot spy on Americans, but they can make you tick something that allows them to like like like you know how there's like pop-ups on Instagram or whatever, or just a new terms and conditions or whatever, and then all of a sudden they're listening to every word you say. Do you think there's something involved with the CIA

[37:51] and the higher-ups that like is manipulating the way that they can like listen to everything? Like they're like like listening to the phones and >> Well, we know from the Vault 7 revelations from 2017, uh Joshua Schulte uh is alleged to have uh sent the crown jewels of the CIA to WikiLeaks, and he says exactly that. That they are listening to us constantly. You know, just recently, I was on the

[38:22] phone with a friend of mine and I was saying that uh uh I've gotten some death threats lately from some truly unhinged lunatics. And he said "Oh, you should take a concealed carry course." I said, "No, I've I've taken a concealed carry course and I had a concealed carry permit." Uh but because I have a felony conviction, I had to give up my gun and I can only get it back if I receive a presidential pardon. Literally as soon as we hung up the phone

[38:52] every single ad on my Facebook feed was for a kill a concealed carry class. Every single ad. So, you know they're listening. They tell you in the terms of uh use that they're that they're listening. But, it's for a it's for a better advertising experience, right? At least that's what they want us to believe. Well, Joshua Schulte told us that the CIA is able to, you know, remotely take over control of your car by hacking into into its computer or it's able to turn your smart TV speaker into a microphone

[39:25] so that it broadcasts back to them everything that's being said in the room even when the TV's off. And those are just two out of dozens and dozens of technical operations that he revealed to us. So, no, I don't trust the CIA or NSA or the FBI or any of these other national security agencies to protect my civil rights and and civil liberties. No. >> It's crazy. It It does make me think around how you like

[39:55] you really can't trust anything that you see. And it's concerning the amount people take things as gospel and run with it. Well, like I think those it wasn't that I don't know the exact numbers of like 50% of the accounts online are bots. >> Right. 50%? >> Something crazy like this. >> Yeah. >> And and and so then you just go, "Okay, like if I see something online, I've got to like look at it twice and maybe not take it as gospel and maybe do my own research and figure out why that's being

[40:27] presented to me in the first place because if they can if they can listen to a conversation that you're having in real life and then moments later pop up a a perfect ad and everyone listening to this has experienced this, pop up a perfect ad of that thing, whether it's swimming trunks or a towel or hand soap, whatever it is. Watch me get all these right now. >> Yeah. >> Right. If they can do that, it makes me question what else they can do. >> Mhm. >> How can they do that so quickly? Surely if they planned something or they

[40:58] planned a agenda that they're trying to push or whatever it is, they could probably get it on your phone relatively easy. >> Sure. >> And so, then it does make me make me wonder. >> And you've seen You've seen investigative journalists um uh experiment with phone tracking systems, too. Where I when you could take the phone the battery out of the phone and they take the battery out of the phone, but the backup battery continues to send a ping showing your location. What's the point of taking the battery out of the phone if it's still tracking you?

[41:29] >> Wait, what's this? Can you explain this? >> Yeah, the not the current phones that we have, but 10 years ago you used to be able to take the battery out of the phone, right? If you wanted privacy. Um but there were backup batteries in phones. And so, even if you take the battery out, the backup battery continued to send a ping showing your location. Who's it reporting to? If I take the battery out of the phone, that means I don't want the phone tracking me. But it continued to track. And now you can't take the battery out of the phone. Even when you shut the

[41:59] phone off, it continues to track your location. >> Do you think anything's changed dramatically since the CIA has started investing in big tech companies? >> I do. I do. When I was in the CIA, most of the spy gadgets that we used, we just we just bought, you know, on the open market. There used to be these shops in London, New York, and Washington called the spies the spy store the spy shop, one of the other. It was over on Hem Street, 18th. Um but it was it was cheaper, faster,

[42:31] easier to just buy something that had already been invented than it was to just reinvent the wheel from scratch and spend a million dollars in development. Now you just buy it off of I mean for a while we would just buy it off of Amazon. Well, now with these partnerships with big tech, the CIA's got its own, you know, satellites and all kinds of crazy advanced things. A guy that I sat next to for years who I really I liked and respected deeply is now the director of technology for the

[43:02] for the whole CIA managing these relationships that we have we that the that the CIA has with big tech. Mhm, scary. It It does What does it end? >> Yeah. And then with AI and all the rest of it coming in you just go I wonder the amount of control. Maybe Bustamante's leaving cuz he needs to escape. >> [laughter] >> Well, you know, maybe the third world country is so that we can maybe be hidden a bit more. >> The first thing he had to do is is heed

[43:33] the CIA training do not attract attention to yourself by getting rid of the Sideshow Bob hair do. And then maybe he can move overseas and not be so easily noticed. >> Do you think that's the thing why he got rid of the hair? >> Yeah, I do. >> What do you mean? >> Yeah, you can't have hair like that in the CIA. He did not have hair like that in the CIA. Don't attract attention to yourself. If you're going undercover and you look like Sideshow Bob from The Simpsons, you're not doing cover very well.

[44:06] >> [laughter] >> Sorry. >> [laughter] >> Sacha Baron Cohen is crazy, man. >> [laughter] >> But he looks like Sacha Baron Cohen, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean >> I'm waiting for him to break out into, you know, HMS Pinafore. >> [laughter] [gasps] >> Is Is there Is there an actual between

[44:36] you two? >> No. >> I met the guy one time. We had a good debate. It was all in good fun. >> Yeah. >> We We take a little poke at each other every once in a while, but he's he's a good guy. >> Yeah. No, he's cool. He was lovely. Invited me to his home, and I I appreciated it. It was It was great. Can I want to talk about some of the the the massive world events that have happened, and you've been experienced You've experienced some of them. You've got inside on some of them. Um some of them being during your time working with the CIA. If we go back to the 9/11, where were you at that time?

[45:08] >> Well, yeah, I was in I was in CIA headquarters at the at the Counterterrorism Center. Um that morning the director of counterterrorism, Cofer Black, and I had a meeting at the White House with Condoleezza Rice scheduled for 9:00. And so at 8:10 the driver called me to say that the car was ready. They were waiting for us at the South at the South door. I walked over to Cofer's office to tell him that the car was ready to take us to the White House. And um

[45:39] these are the days before you could watch TV on your computer. So, Cofer's secretary had a little um a little TV, like a 5-in TV, on her desk, and one of the towers of the World Trade Center was burning. So, I went up there, and I looked at it. I said, "What happened to the World Trade Center?" And she said, "A plane hit it." And I said and I've said this before, because I'm so smart, I said, "You know, that happened once before in 1930. A plane hit the the Empire State Building, but it was pouring rain. It was really foggy

[46:10] that day. It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center?" And just as I said the words, the second plane hit. And then she turned to me and she said, "Did you see that or did I imagine it?" Then I ran back to my office. I said, "Guys, two planes just hit both towers of the World Trade Center. I think we're under attack." Everybody ran up to Cofer's office. There were these TVs that were hanging from the the ceiling. It was like CNN, MSNBC. I don't think there was a Fox News yet. Um there may

[46:43] have been. I don't recall, but BBC and Canal Plus and the Russians and the Chinese. And it was all the same scene. And then, you know, a plane hits the Pentagon. And it's like, "Oh, now this is this is what they've been talking about for months." We knew something was going to happen for months. And we just didn't know where where it was going to be. The conventional wisdom was that Al-Qaeda was going to hit another American Embassy overseas, take down a big embassy. We just didn't think it was going to be here in the United States.

[47:15] >> So So you knew something was happening. >> On on July 6th of that year, I've told this story many times, but on July 6th that year, totally, completely normal day for me. I was hosting a group of Middle Eastern intelligence officers at headquarters. We did this every day. You do it a day full of briefings. You take them upstairs to shake the director's hand, get a photo op. You exchange gifts. You take them out to a fancy dinner that night. And the next day you do it with a group from a different country.

[47:46] Every day. So that day, and these are all like mid-level guys at the major, lieutenant colonel level. So that day I was hosting them and I scheduled a briefing, a 1-hour briefing with a very junior analyst on Al-Qaeda. So, when it came time for the briefing, instead of this junior analyst coming, Cofer Black comes with the director of operations for the Osama bin Laden group. And I was so surprised, I jumped up. I said, "Oh, gentlemen,

[48:17] this is Cofer Black. He's the director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and this is the head of operations." And Cofer sat down with his grave tone, and he said, "Something terrible is going to happen. We don't know exactly when or where, but we know it's going to be an attack on an unprecedented scale. We're hearing chatter coming from the Al-Qaeda training camps, where camp

[48:48] uh commanders are talking to their students, and they're crying on the phone, and saying, "I'll see you in paradise." We're hearing code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman's coming with vast quantities of honey. There's going to be a giant wedding, an enormous football match. All code words for an attack." He said, "I'm begging you. If you have any sources inside Al-Qaeda, please help us." And they just kind of

[49:18] sat there and looked at him. Nobody said anything. At the end of the day, I sent them back to the hotel, told them I'd pick them up in 2 hours for dinner, and then I went over to Cofer's office to thank him for taking the time. The guy's important. He's meeting with the president every day. And he's going to take an hour and come and talk to these guys? So, I said, "Cofer, I have to ask you, I don't work on Al-Qaeda. Were you saying that just for their benefit, or were you serious?" And he said, "No, I was deadly serious. Something terrible is going to happen."

[49:50] And then 2 months later, it happened. I knew immediately it was what he was talking about. >> Mhm. So, there's so many different different stories around 9/11 and so many different things of conspiracies and different things of what people think it happened. For you, like how how how much clarity do you have and how much confidence do you have in what actually happened? >> I'm confident. I don't believe it was the Jews,

[50:23] the Saudi royal family, the lizard people, um Dick Cheney, the Bushes, thermite paint that was put on the wall in the 1970s, all the bolts were removed by Larry what's-his-name. No. Al-Qaeda did it. >> Damn. >> Mhm. >> [gasps] >> Yeah. I I I think it's just a fascinating one because

[50:54] if we tie back into how you see people being out of control of the media, especially if they can listen to us and they can push whatever they want, it makes me wonder with how uh with the power of social media now, like how much can they hide everything that they do because I guess if they can just flood your feed with whatever they want, how much can they hide all of their laundry and how much can they just dissolve things? And you see this happen

[51:24] all the time, right? You see you see all of a sudden COVID's the biggest problem and then next minute Black Lives Matter happens and then all of a sudden COVID's irrelevant and then that this happens and then Epstein >> wag the dog situation. It certainly can be. And then when you've got when you've got the law that banned propagandization of the American people effectively overturned in 2015-2016, you're right. Of course, people are going to think there's a conspiracy. There could be.

[51:55] I think on 9/11 there wasn't. I think the only conspiracy was a conspiracy of silence. I think the Israelis probably had advanced warning that there was going to be an attack in the United States. That's why there were so many Israeli intelligence officers in New York that day. Um but they they knew that if we were going to be attacked, we were going to go hog wild and just kill as many Muslims as we could, which is exactly what happened. You know, thus helping the Israelis. So, I think that

[52:26] was a conspiracy. But um Yeah, I can see why people believe what they believe. I I also continue to believe that they're wrong in their conclusions, but I understand why they believe so. >> Mhm. >> What about Epstein? Did How long did you know Did you know well before it all came out what was going on? >> No. No idea. No. Never encountered the man, never heard his name. No.

[52:57] But I for one believed the conspiracies surrounding Epstein. I did not believe Pizzagate. I'll say that. And much of Pizzagate turned out to be true. At least with the release of this most recent tranche, it appears that much of Pizzagate turned out to be true. Um Planet Pizza, whatever it was called, Comet Pizza, whatever. There's no basement. There's no holding pen for children to be trafficked from Hillary Clinton. That was all silliness.

[53:29] But I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of what was meant by beef jerky and grape soda. You know, the beef jerky man's coming to teach us how to make the beef jerky. He's bringing really high-quality beef jerky. He's going to show us how to prepare the beef jerky. He's going to dry the beef jerky. We're going to have the beef jerky set aside from everything else. Nobody ever talks about eating the beef jerky. And if you like beef jerky so much, why don't you just go to Walmart and buy it? Right? So, what is it? What are we

[54:00] talking about here? Are we talking about children? And the reason why nobody's talking is because the statute of limitations has expired and it doesn't do them any good to talk. Why would they? But then there are other things in the Epstein files. Kathryn Ruemmler, who was the White House counsel. The White House counsel. And a woman whom Barack Obama described as his most trusted aide. First of all,

[54:31] she was in constant touch with Epstein, calling her calling him um um Uncle Jeff, you know, my best friend. How? Why? And then repeatedly trying to introduce him to John Brennan, the director of the CIA. To do what? Why would she need to broker a meeting between Jeffrey Epstein, a convicted pedophile, and the director of the CIA? Yeah, we're never going to get answers.

[55:02] And then when the president says that he doesn't care what the law says, he's not releasing the rest of the documents. Remind you, the vote was 419 to 1 in the House and 99 to nothing in the Senate. He signed it and then said, "Eh, I'm not going to release this. What are you going to do about it? You going to sue me?" Go ahead and sue me. Why? To protect whom? So, I don't know.

[55:33] I believe that conspiracy. Yeah, I I saw somebody just recently in the media uh criticizing Dan Bongino. Um I don't know Dan Bongino well. I've met him a couple of times. Uh we probably disagree on most issues, but I've always found him to be uh um an honest and direct person. And that's why even though I disagree with him on these major issues, I was actually very pleased when he was named the deputy director of the FBI because I believed that he wanted the truth to

[56:04] come out. And you remember in that last part let uh sorry. You remember in the last um uh press conference that he did with Pam Bondi and Kash Patel, the look on his face showed him to be furious. Furious. They're talking about the Epstein files. And he resigned soon after that. And now he says, "Well, his job at the FBI was make sure that that the rules were followed and

[56:34] you know, this, that." And no, that's not at all what you said. You said you were going to release the Epstein files. That's what you said. And now you're like, "Well, no, I never said I wanted to release the Epstein files. What I said is I wanted, you know, the truth to No, no, no, no, no. No. So, you know, so many of us believed that the swamp was actually going to get drained. Every Everybody just became a swamp monster. >> Nothing was drained. >> Why do you think they amplified it to

[57:06] any degree in the first place then if they had never no intentions of releasing? >> that they did have intentions of releasing. And I think that what Marjorie Taylor Greene has told us is true, that so many important, powerful, famous people were involved. People who give millions upon millions of dollars to the two political parties that everybody was just like, "Oh, better not to rock the boat." >> Damn. >> Mhm. It's crazy the pull that one person had

[57:36] though on all of the people. It does make me wonder how that even played out and how that even >> I I really don't wonder about [laughter] it. You don't? I'm 100% confident he was an Israeli access agent. But with the release of this last tranche of 3 million pages, he appears to have also been working for the CIA, for the FBI, for the British MI5 and MI6, for the Germans, and he sought contact with the Russians

[58:08] repeatedly, but they couldn't come to an agreement. >> What do you think is the biggest concern for corruption in the future? >> You know, I I think that the biggest concern is that the law is um is unevenly administered. So, if you're one of the insiders, one of the swells, you can do anything you want. And the the Supreme Court has

[58:39] essentially said, you know, corruption's fine. Go ahead and be corrupt. Any president can be corrupt. You can't prosecute a president for anything that he does while he's president. We've never had the Supreme Court ever say something like that before. And so now, you know, corruption is okay, grifting is okay, enriching oneself is okay. How do we How do we make it back from here? Nobody in Congress has the guts to

[59:11] to sponsor legislation or to pass legislation, and certainly no president would would undercut his own position and his own authority not at this point. So, I'm not sure how we recover from this. >> Yeah. What about like agendas and propaganda online? And and I know that propaganda is a bit of a weird word in itself, but like it's clear that we see a lot of agendas online that are being pushed massively. Like for example, like a

[59:43] a manosphere documentary will come out, but they'll never release a feminism documentary as an example, right? That's just one thing. Like the the the stuff that's being amplified is it's clearly agenda. Um you know, even I've had like someone that I was connected with who was more of like a he was he was more of like a news reporter, but independent and he was blowing up in Australia and he and he was making all this great content that was clear that he was writing and then boom, a collaborative

[1:00:14] post with news.com.au and it's a completely different script that's clearly agenda and I message him and I say, "Hey, like I know you didn't write this." And he's like, "No, I'll be honest, I didn't." Like it's clear that there's an agenda going on. What are your thoughts on on that and how they're controlling a narrative with a lot of things that we're seeing online? >> Yeah, I think we're so far down that road that uh it's virtually impossible to get back.

[1:00:46] When I was a little kid um Walter Cronkite was the guy that most everybody watched for news, CBS News. There was talk of Walter Cronkite running for president or chosen for vice president on an independent ticket because everybody in America trusted Walter Cronkite. And it wasn't just Walter Cronkite, it was I mean every network had these had these old men who had been working in journalism for decades and everybody just trusted them. You trusted them that when you tuned in for the evening news at 6:30 or

[1:01:16] 7:00 you're going to get it straight without any editorialization. And that's like laughable now, quaint. Um on both the left and the right. I I'll give you two examples. Um I And I've said this many times. I was a third-generation Democrat. And I left the Democratic Party years ago because to me it moved too far to the right on issues of war and peace, foreign policy.

[1:01:47] It's just a neo-conservative, you know, pro-war foreign policy. Um but because I was not an Obama supporter and because it was the Obama administration that went after me on MSNBC, I was always always referred to as John Kiriakou, who styles himself a whistleblower. Very offensive. Who styles himself a whistleblower. And then they were shocked

[1:02:18] that I wouldn't come on their shows. I was like, why would I? You insult me every day and then you want me to come on so you I can be a punching bag for you. That's not news. So I refused. And then on the right I was doing a podcast recently um at the home of the podcaster's parents. Very wealthy people very highly educated. And one of them

[1:02:50] said it must be nice to get out of that war zone for a day. And I said, what do you mean? Well, Washington, you know, the president had to call out the National Guards. It must be hell on earth down there. And I started laughing. And she said, what? And I said, Washington's one of the safest big cities in the Western world. There's no crime problem in Washington. It's completely made up. It's just It's just for the for the cameras. And these National Guard troops, they're only in the tourist areas where they get

[1:03:21] the most visibility. They're not in the, you know, drug dealing parts of the city. It's just for for show. And they looked at each other like, "We've been duped." Because every single night on Fox and OAN and Newsmax, it's like this hellscape that is Washington. And it's just not. It's just made up. You can't trust anybody. People ask me all the time where I get my news. And the answer is everywhere. You can't rely on one or two or 10

[1:03:52] outlets. You have to read them all. And you have to become well-versed enough to know what to believe and why to believe it. So, I always go through my list and people say, "Well, where where do you get your news?" I say, "I start with the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Times of London, the Guardian. And the the Greek press just because I'm Greek and I enjoy the Greek press. Then I go to AP, UPI, Fox, CNN,

[1:04:23] couple of others. And then I go to the alternatives, right? Um reader-supported news, Consortium News, Covert Action Magazine, uh Dropsite News, The Intercept. And then I just keep going. It takes me 2 hours every day just to skim the 25 different websites that I need to scan. And then if there's something that's particularly interesting, like a primary race, let's say, then I have to go specifically to the political press and to the to the

[1:04:54] academic and and polling press. And that's another hour. So, it takes hours every single day just because you can't believe anybody and you have to come to your own conclusion. >> Damn. Do you find that that gets exhausting or is it something that you love doing? >> I've always loved it. >> Yeah. Even when I was at the CIA, I could not wait to get to the office in the morning just to see what I had missed overnight. >> Yeah. So, you mentioned before that you had people that were just basically

[1:05:27] heckling you, just like as you're going out, calling you names, labeling you different things, asking you to go on the show, and then you're not obviously going on. Did you find that it was quite challenging being hated so much and being like in a really like was was it quite isolating being talk told all these names and even your son getting mad at you, like all all of this, like did you find it was isolating? >> No. >> Why why not? >> Because I had a core of people who could not have possibly

[1:05:58] supported me any more strongly. A lot of them being former CIA colleagues telling me, "Keep doing it. You're doing the right thing." I got I got an email the day after I blew the whistle from a retired Deputy Director of the CIA, of the whole CIA. And he said, "You've chosen a difficult road. I'm glad somebody did. I only wish I had had the courage to do it myself." And I saved it as a souvenir to remind myself that I had done the

[1:06:28] right thing. You know, you and I were you and I were talking before we started filming um about people's reactions to to this kind of thing. And you just have to be confident that that you're right. And knowing that you're right, you just let the chips fall. And you get to see who's with you and who's not with you. And sometimes it's going to surprise you. But then you come out on the other side stronger knowing who who your friends really are.

[1:06:59] >> Mhm. >> Yeah, uh Matthew McConaughey "I'd rather be hated for who I am than to be than than to be applauded for someone who I'm not. >> [laughter] >> Amen. He's 100% right. >> Yeah, I think I think I look at this right and if we talk about real loneliness, real isolation, that's being liked for someone that you're not because you're getting praised for someone that deep down isn't you. So you don't even feel like people see you because it's not even you who you're showing. And I think, you know, as you're sharing that today like

[1:07:30] I had like a mini cancellation about a year ago where I got flamed for all these different things and I remember I doubled down and and like called them all clowns. I was like, "No, like I believe in what I said." And I remember there was a a massive divide that came from it where people that was closest to me stopped answering my calls, stopped liking liking my posts. They stopped like they didn't want to be associated with me because they were fearful of what people are going to think if they were associated with me. >> gotten that. >> Yeah. >> And and I would just remember

[1:08:02] watching that and sitting that. It was a shame, but at the same time there's a level of peace because I I felt this weight off my shoulders cuz I was like, "I got nothing to hide that." >> No, and you don't have to be something different to different people. You can just be yourself. >> And then from that, what stemmed from it was this freeing nature of being able to just speak whatever was on my mind and whatever felt true to me. And that's what compounded everything because at the end of the day, everyone that likes me knows who I am because I'm being real. >> Yeah. >> And then everyone that doesn't, well,

[1:08:33] we were never going to be close anyway because because because all I did was just share my my thoughts and so it kind of like made the connections in my life stronger that were actually real and then faded the ones that weren't. And I don't know. I'm not sure if you relate to that at all with with when you got to come out. >> Very much so. You know, when I blew the whistle I garnered a lot of support. Even more like significantly more when I got in legal trouble for it. But then when I started writing from prison, I

[1:09:04] started writing about a lot of civil liberties issues and corruption issues and stuff like that. I wrote one blog post that Ariana Huffington ran about pedophiles. And I said, you know, now I'm I'm living among them. And I see that they're that they're beyond, you know, saving. And that society needs to be protected from them. There's no cure for pedo- pedophilia. You're not going to give them therapy and then all of a sudden they're not going to be interested in, you know, having sex with children um

[1:09:36] anymore. And so I said that I've come to support something called um community confinement. So what they do is they they put mobile homes on the grounds of the prison. And when you finish your your sentence, you move into the mobile homes. So you're technically not in in prison anymore. You don't have to stand up for the count times and, you know, stand in line for inspection and all that stuff. But you can't leave the grounds because society needs to be protected

[1:10:07] from you. And the people that wrote to me and said, "How dare you? They've paid their debts to society and you're supposed to be a civil libertarian. How dare you want to confine these poor men?" And it's like, "Sorry. I'm right. You're wrong. They can live in your house if you want them out there. But I don't want them around my children." >> Yeah. I think there's certain lines that can't be crossed and pedophilia and

[1:10:39] so anything to do with with that is the is one of those ones. >> Mhm. >> Do you have any regrets? >> No. >> Why not? >> I can't imagine having regrets polluting my thoughts 24 hours a day. I made my bed. I am perfectly happy to lie in it. I accept what I did. I'm proud of what I did. And I handled the consequences. Thank God, knock on wood, things have

[1:11:10] turned around for me. Um but no. I I won't allow myself to go through life with regrets. Nothing productive comes of that. >> I like that. What's your focus at the moment? Like in life, what are you optimizing for? >> I'm going to give you a different answer than I would have have given you 6 months ago. 6 months ago it was about, you know, continuing the fight for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. Most important thing in my life. And that's still very important. But

[1:11:43] for for reasons that will never be clear to me, I somehow hit the the YouTube algorithm sweet spot several months ago. And um I'm getting more coverage than I've ever gotten in my life. And I've been able to actually make a living doing it. And so I'm 61 years old. I'm finally going to be in a position to buy a decent house to live in and to move on with my life and start to make plans for retirement and live happily

[1:12:15] ever after. So I'm going to continue to write books and give speeches and advise on films and and television series and stuff like that. I don't need to consider it to be work. I like it so much. It just it's not work to me. I'm just going to keep doing it till I can't anymore. >> I appreciate you, dude. I feel like I just want to commend you even to share energy is the moment you walk in you said probably joyful and and you got a great great vibe about you and

[1:12:47] yeah. Um I wish you all the best with everything you're doing in the future. Thanks for John Kiriakou. Thanks for coming on the show, man. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it.
