Title: Truth, Betrayal & The Cost Of Speaking Out Ft. John Kiriakou | EP 6
Show: To My Sons and Daughters Podcast
Date: 2026-07-28
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJVUqlEZ2zQ
Duration: 4193

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[00:00] The CIA cannot accept the fact that it was wrong >> at the time that you blew the whistle >> and then wound up prosecuted by the Obama administration. >> Yes. They murdered a prisoner during the interrogation and said, "What do we do?" >> The base office wrote back and said, "Dig a hole and put him in the hole." >> Cutting off your family instead of talking to them >> is the worst thing. The person who's really harmed by cutting off a family member is the person doing the cutting.

[00:31] >> You know, my first marriage, we we got married too young. Then I have three children from my second marriage. My second divorce, I spent another million dollars. My first two kids. They're older. They're 33 and 30. They cut me off. It'll be 11 years ago next month. >> So the what you just described in this case happened dozens and dozens if not hundreds of times. >> Again, prosecutor began his questioning of me. Well, you are a convicted felon. I said, yes, I am, and you've been

[01:01] convicted of a national security crime. I said, yes, I have, and I would do it again tomorrow if I had the opportunity. Of all the terrorism cases that the FBI has investigated, only 1% are actual terrorism cases. The rest are just created out of thin air by the FBI. John Keryaku, thanks so much for being

[01:32] on the podcast. >> My pleasure. Thanks for having me. >> What a treat to have you on. Right. >> Happy to do it. >> A guy who um I mean we've been friends for some time. I was an admirer before everybody else in the world was. >> Yeah. [laughter] Thank you. >> I was early to the party. I can say honestly. >> I appreciate it. um have actually have just always had such respect for you and the positions you've taken and you literally put your life out there um and paid an enormous price uh for telling the truth, a true truth teller. And then beyond that, you then devoted your life

[02:04] to teaching other people how to be truth tellers and whistleblowers and and so that was kind of, you know, before all the hummus stories. >> Yeah. >> That's the John Kiryaku that I knew and and a person I truly respect. >> Thank you very much. Let's talk a little bit about this is going to be a different kind of a podcast than probably some of the ones you've done. Um because people have heard so many great stories and you have so many amazing stories, but I want to talk more about about you and your life and kind of the struggles that you've been through and some of the things you faced because we have known each other for some time. I know there's there's a lot to you that's had to deal with a lot of

[02:35] pain. Yeah. >> Right. There's a lot of cool stories. >> It's not been an easy road. >> Yeah. It's it's been a it's been a rough one in a lot of ways. I want to go back to right around the time that you made the decision to blow the whistle on CIA torture, right? And I always remind people, I just said it on a a show the other day, only person who ever went to prison for CIA torture was the guy who told everyone what's happening. >> Yes. >> Talk a little bit about I mean, how is how have you processed that over the years to the fact that that's still your reality? The only person who ever went

[03:07] to prison? >> I'm a convicted felon. >> Yeah. I'm banned for life from the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, >> and uh can't own a gun ever again. There's a mandatory minimum five-year prison sentence if I if I'm ever caught with a gun. I had to ask the governor of Virginia to allow me to vote again. So, I I have this thing hanging over my head. Yeah. >> Even after all these years, >> you know what? That's I can live with that.

[03:38] >> Yep. What I have trouble processing is the fact that the bad guys all got away. >> I was at the uh spy museum in Washington last weekend. Yeah. >> U a man asked me to uh >> he hired me to walk his family through the spy museum and sort of give, you know, commentary in each of the rooms. And there's one room dedicated to torture. And who do they have running on this video loop? The torturers.

[04:11] >> There was Jose Rodriguez who was the director of counterterrorism later became the deputy director of the CIA for operations. There were Mitchell and Jessen, the two contract psychologists who had come up with the torture program. >> That's right. They were they were the ones who worked in Albu Grave. Right. >> That's right. >> Yep. >> Um and then off to the side they're like Yeah. And some people said torture was bad. >> And that that actually angered me. >> Yeah. >> It bothered me. >> Yeah. >> Because here we are all these years

[04:42] later. Congress has concluded that torture was wrong. >> The media finally have concluded that torture was wrong. We've released almost everybody at Guantanamo. There are 34 people there after having 770 at its at its peak. And yet the CIA cannot accept the fact that it was wrong. >> They just can't do it. >> And as you said, I'm still the only person even tangentially

[05:12] associated with the torture program who ever went to prison and I was the one who exposed it. >> No torturer, no doctor who came up with these >> murderers. Ben, murderers. Murderers. I remember I remember seeing a cable. It was the first time I had seen a cable like this where the so-called interrogators went too far, which we all predicted they would, >> and they murdered a prison a prisoner during the interrogation and said, "What do we do?" >> Yeah. >> And then the base office wrote back and

[05:42] said, "Just dig a hole and put him in the hole." >> And that was it. >> It's like, how's that legal? Nobody ever gave the CIA permission to torture people to death. >> And you just dig a hole and pretend the guy never existed. But none of those people were ever prosecuted. >> Yeah. Not not one person who did this. And and just remind me on one other detail. The two doctors you mentioned. >> Yes. >> These are the guys who kind of created a

[06:13] lot of these techniques. >> Yeah. They created all of them. So this is James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. >> Yeah. two contract psychologists who had been psychologists with the Air Force, >> right? >> And they were they were the ones that trained Air Force personnel in SEIR uh >> evasion, whatever it's called. >> Um it's it's what we train our pilots to expect to have done to them if they're captured in hostile territory. >> They'll beat you, they'll gas you, they'll do this, they'll do that. So

[06:44] they reverse engineered it so that we could be the torturers >> instead of teaching people how to resist the torture. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And then they implemented >> but it was all it was all experimental, right? Like this wasn't based on anything other than their own twisted fantasies and and >> you're exactly right. >> Creations, right? >> That's right. >> And to your point, who even approved it? I mean, that that's there's a lot of questions about that, too, right? Still, >> that's a question that's never been fully answered, >> you know. Another question that's never

[07:14] been fully answered is how did this even begin? >> Right? >> George Tennant in his memoir talks about someone approaching him at a dinner party in October of 2001 >> and saying, "Hey, there are these two guys you should meet." Uh, they've got a really good idea, >> but Tenant doesn't remember. He says he doesn't remember who it was. He doesn't remember how it got approved. He wasn't sure. Did did the president sign it? Did the vice president sign it on behalf of the president? A lot of weird important

[07:47] questions were never answered >> at the time that you blew the whistle >> and then wound up prosecuted by the Obama administration. >> Yes. >> Because you blew the whistle during the Bush administration. >> That's right. >> Prosecuted by the Obama administration. >> The Bush administration specifically concluded that I had not committed a crime. >> Right. But Obama was the was the besides being deorter and chief, which no one gives him credit for, he was the most aggressive >> US president in terms of pursuing

[08:18] >> Yeah. >> prosecution of whistleblowers. He went after so many. >> He went after eight of us. >> Yeah. >> All previous presidents combined. >> Yeah. >> Prosecuted three people. >> Yeah. >> For speaking with the media. Barack Obama in his eight years as president prosecuted eight of us for speaking to the media. It's so fascinating that he gets this pass still, right? >> You know, Ben, I've never understood this. >> Like you said a minute ago, deorter and chief. >> Yeah. >> Deported more people than any other president in American history. >> Yeah.

[08:49] >> He had a what has been described to me as a Nixonian obsession with national security leaks. >> Yeah. >> Nobody ever talks about that. No. >> You know, there's a book that was written by Mark Halprin and John Hilleman. >> Yep. called Double Down. They wrote a book about the 2008 election and then they wrote a sequel about the 2012 election called Double Down. And in this book, they quote Barack Obama twice. Two chilling quotes >> that I think people on the American

[09:20] political left choose to just ignore because it doesn't fit into their >> he geography of Barack Obama. >> One is he says very matterof factly, I never said I was a liberal. >> Right? like, "Oh, really?" >> Because he supposedly ran to the left of Hillary Clinton. >> That's right. That's right. >> And speaking about the drone program, >> he said, "I never had any >> um realization that I would be so good at killing people." >> He just said it very matterofactly. He

[09:52] killed more than >> 10 times. He's right. He's right. He's right. He killed more than 10 times the people that George W. Bush killed with drones. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and he waged wars in places that George W. Bush hadn't even touched. >> You're absolutely right. >> Yemen became a killing field. >> That's right. >> Um for what? >> What about the murder of American citizens who had never been charged with the crime? It was Barack Obama that killed American citizens. >> And Aalocki, his 16-year-old son, his 16year-old nephew, and then a week later

[10:24] his eight-year-old daughter. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like >> Barack Obama was Well, he still is because he's still alive. Yeah, >> but at the time that he was president, he was the most bloodthirsty >> warhawk president we'd ever seen. And even to this day, you know, people will think now obviously Trump's doing a whole lot of stuff with Iran. I won't go into all that, but to this day, people will treat him like he was this well, he was the winner of a Nobel Peace Prize. >> Yeah. Right. He was >> preemptively. >> Yeah. Because of the in anticipation of how great he would be. >> I was in Norway last week, just as an

[10:54] aside. >> Yeah. >> And we were talking about the Nobel Peace Prize. And all of the Norwegians, professors, journalists, a couple of parliamentarians, they all just agreed that it's just a it's just a political soop. It doesn't mean anything anymore. >> Yeah. It's it's about as effective as the FIFA. >> Exactly. The peace prize. Yeah. Exactly. >> So, John Keryaku is sitting in prison at this point, prosecuted by Barack Obama, his administration, and then you're in prison. >> How do you get through that? Ah, that's

[11:27] a good question. It's actually one that's never been asked of me before. >> I tried as hard as I could to remain relevant. So, I had really good attorneys >> and they they didn't stop being my attorneys when I went to prison. This was like an ongoing relationship. >> And they told me that I needed to write write as much as I could write. And so I began by writing a blog that at first appeared in um at at a little website

[11:57] called Fire Dog Lake. Okay. >> It was later picked up by the Huffington Post. >> Drove the prison administration crazy because they couldn't figure out how I was getting it out of the prison. >> So they started this investigation of me. I can tell you how I got it out of the prison. >> Please. >> I folded it in thirds. I put it in an envelope. I put a stamp on it. and I addressed it to my lawyers. >> It really was as simple as that. >> Yeah. Because they couldn't read mail to your lawyers because it's privileged

[12:28] communication. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So smart. >> So, um, Ariana Huffington picked it up at the Huffington Post and it went crazy. >> Yeah. >> So, I capitalized on that by writing several opeds for the Los Angeles Times in longhand on a legal pad, >> which they dutifully published. I wrote an op-ed for the Guardian. Um, I was asked to testify in writing before the European Parliament. I did that. But I

[12:59] realized that people were actually interested in what I had to say, especially about torture and government transparency. Yeah. >> And so I just I wrote constantly >> and it kept me relevant. >> That that makes a lot of sense. People end up in in dire situations, very dark places, right? Yeah. and and figuring out how to get out. Um there's a quote that's going around a lot on social media, uh and it says, you know, God, why would you put me in such a terrible place? And he says, so that you know the

[13:31] way out when I send you back in for someone else. I I feel like you're a guy who's gone back in for a lot of people. >> May I speak to that, >> please? Three weeks ago, I was getting ready to go to Greece to participate in a conference there and I got a call two days before I left from the federal public defender for the Southern District of Florida right here in Miami. >> And he said that he needed my help in a terrorism case. M >> so would I agree to be an expert witness

[14:04] in this case of a u of a young Muslim man >> who had been arrested and charged with two counts of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction two counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism and two counts of conspiracy to murder a federal agent. Each one of those six charges by itself carries a penalty of life without parole. So six times life without pearl. Wow. >> I said, "Well, let me read the file and I'll get back to you." They sent me everything.

[14:35] >> This poor guy >> is a mentally ill, >> homeless man who happens to be Muslim. He lives in an alley behind a restaurant here in Miami. >> And um and he had a small storage unit where he kept his meager belongings. So, an employee of the storage company went into the unit, probably to rob him, >> and saw two things. He saw a baseball bat with some writing on it.

[15:07] >> So, >> and then he saw some childlike drawings. Remember when you were in fifth or sixth grade and you would draw >> battlefield pictures of people launching rockets at each other? Something the FBI later called schematics for a bomb? >> Oh my gosh. It's like, "No, it's a 10-year-old's drawing of rockets." Okay. >> So, they the FBI, the guy reports it to the cops. The cops call the FBI. The FBI takes pictures of everything and decides to reach out to this man through Facebook. >> Okay. >> And they said, "Hey, brother. Uh, we

[15:40] heard that you're Muslim, Allah Akbar." Right. Yeah. >> And, uh, welcome to Miami, and we heard from the restaurant that you live in the alley. Let us take you out for a pizza and a beer. They took him out for pizza. They bought him a pack of cigarettes. We're uh we have our own militia. It's called the Pineapple Militia because we live in Florida and we want to overthrow the government. Do you want to be in our militia? He said no. Four times. Wow. Finally, just to get them off his back,

[16:12] he's like, "All right, all right. I'll join your militia. You know what we should do? We should blow up that synagogue over there." He's like, "Why would we do that? No, you know what? We need to do something bigger. We should blow up the New York Stock Exchange. Can you build us a bomb? He said, 'N no, I don't know how to build a bomb. They said, just look at YouTube. You can learn there. The FBI ends up building the bomb. And then they pick him up, they hand him the bomb, he looks in the bag, and they arrest him, and they charge him with all

[16:43] of these, you know, life-ending felony charges. So, I testified by Zoom from Athens and I talked about what's called the asset acquisition cycle. Spot, assess, develop, recruit. They spotted this guy. He's homeless. He's mentally ill. They assessed that he could use money, even if it's just for food, maybe a roof over his head for a night or two a week. >> They began to develop him. And this is the part that I really that that was

[17:14] really the most important in the case. Um, I said that we're we're all trained to ingratiate ourselves with our target. You call him brother, you call him buddy, you call him cousin, you you spend money on him, starting in restaurants. Well, this guy's desperate he can't even feed himself. And then when you make him believe that you are such close friends, you go in for the ask and you say, "We want you to blow up, in this case, the New York

[17:45] Stock Exchange." He said, "No, no, no, no. Okay, fine, fine." So when the prosecutor began his questioning of me, the questioning was, "Mr. Kiryaku, you're just a common criminal, aren't you? And I said, "I don't know if I'm a common criminal." >> "Well, you are a convicted felon." I said, "Yes, I am >> and you've been convicted of a national security crime." I said, "Yes, I have,

[18:16] and I would do it again tomorrow if I had the opportunity." That's what I said. >> Very good. >> And then the prosecutor said, um, you've written that you remain close with members of organized crime families in New York. I said, absolutely true. In fact, I just spoke with one of them two days ago. Why would you do that? I said, because I have found many of them to be to be very honorable people, and they are they are victims of something that you do, counselor. I said, it's called

[18:47] charge stacking >> where you'll take somebody who may or may not have committed a crime. You charge him with five, 10, 20 felonies. You wait until he's bankrupt and then you offer to drop all the charges but one if he takes a guilty plea >> and then much to my shock the prosecutor brought up something that we wanted to bring up but he said isn't it true that you've written op-eds in which you said that the FBI is an

[19:18] organized crime outfit and I said absolutely yes most recently in the Los Angeles Times. And he said, "You wrote, and I quote, FBI agents don't get promoted by not arresting you. Federal prosecutors don't get promoted by not prosecuting you." And I said, "And that's exactly why we're here today." >> And I said, "Counselor, it's been >> You're making my case for me." >> Yeah. You're making the case. I said, "It's been my experience. At least every

[19:49] prosecutor I've ever met sees himself one day as the US attorney, as a member of Congress, as a candidate for governor, or occupying the corner office in the A-list firm making $2 million a year. So, yeah, I believe that uh that what you do is shameful. >> And uh and then he called me a criminal one other time and the judge told him to move on. He had no further questions. Finally, the the defendant, I'm sorry, the uh the federal uh public defender

[20:21] gets up again for redirect >> and he said something. It just >> I I wish that I could think this linearly, >> but he said, "Mr. Kiryaku, uh you've been certified as an expert witness in this case. Who built the bomb?" And I said, "The FBI built the bomb." And he said, "Who provided the explosives?" I said, "The FBI did." Who provided the debt cord? I said, 'The FBI did. Where'd the timer come from? I said, the FBI provided the timer. Who bought the getaway car? I said, it was

[20:52] an FBI car. And he said, Mr. Kuryaku, in your expert opinion, who's the criminal in this case? I said, the FBI is clearly the criminal in this case. >> Wow. >> He was found last week not guilty on all counts. >> Amazing. >> All counts. Well, my own attorney was so excited about all this that he did some research, and we're writing this for the New York Times. >> Um, his research found >> that of all the terrorism cases that the FBI

[21:23] >> has investigated, >> yep, >> only 1% >> are actual terrorism cases. >> The rest are just created out of thin air. >> Yep. >> By the FBI. And of all the cases prosecuted by federal prosecutors, >> the Justice Department wins 98.2% of their cases. >> This was all this was all um I'm actually reported pretty extensively on this. So the what you just described in this case

[21:53] >> has happened dozens and dozens if not hundreds of times. Right. And it's the exact scenario you're describing. They they pick somebody who is many cases mentally challenged. Yes. >> And or homeless. They create the entire scenario. They provide all of the the physical resources you would need. They usually pick a synagogue. For some reason, you know, synagogues are a >> target of choice for the FBI, right? Yes. >> Uh or they'll pick a landmark, a bridge, something. They create this entire

[22:23] thing. And the moment that you say yes to it, even under duress, >> right >> now it you have now accepted and you're part of the crime. you're a terrorist >> and everybody else is an informant or everybody else is is um an FBI agent. >> And you know, this is not something new. I'm glad that you just said that. There there are we know this thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. >> There are many documented cases >> where >> there would be small anti-Vietnam War

[22:54] groups like radical groups with six members, eight members. Yes. >> And all >> Yes. >> eight of them are FBI agents. >> Yes. And then they >> and in a lot of cases did not know the other things. >> No, they didn't know. And then they report on each other. >> Yes. >> Yeah. It's a nice system we have. >> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it's the same thing with, you know, I'm not necessarily a big Black Panthers uh supporter, but the original Black Panther Party Yeah. >> was not a violent party at all. >> Right. It was about protecting black communities, >> education, and medical care.

[23:24] >> Yes. >> And it was the FBI and the CIA planting. And this is all, you know, declassified on the record. Um, you know, planting these informants within those organizations to intentionally corrupt them. That's right. To create this. And so, yeah, I what a beautiful story though. And and the It's so exciting to me to hear that you were not only able to testify, but he was found not guilty >> because somebody has to stop this madness. >> Somebody. >> And in your own way, you had the opportunity. You're not going to stop

[23:54] maybe the entire train, >> but you pulled one guy off. I'm glad that I was able to do my part. And because I was on Zoom, I could only see the judge and whatever attorney happened to be speaking. The public defender told me later, >> well, several things. He said that >> um that the jury was openly laughing at the prosecutor, >> that the case was just so weak. They were they were actually laughing at him as he was asking his questions. And then as soon as I finished by saying the FBI

[24:25] is the criminal in this case. >> Yes. >> Uh the judge cut the zoom and he told me later that the defendant um Harun Yenner burst into tears >> later saying it was the first time my testimony was the first time that somebody spoke out in support of him. >> Wow. >> And uh and the judge had to call for a recess. It was clear to me Ben after reading it was about 1,200 pages of case papers. It was clear to me that this man was innocent and he was set up >> and it's not this is not justice

[24:56] >> and this does not make us safer >> on any level >> at all. Well, when they first called me, I said to the attorney, "Have you ever heard of the Route 82 bridge conspiracy?" >> And he said, "No, I never heard of it." And I said, "Cleveland, Ohio." Right. One of the the main thorough affairs through Cleveland, Ohio was Route 82. And it goes from like >> Philadelphia to Denver. It's kind of a secondary road, >> but it's a major bridge going into the city of Cleveland. And there were these three idiots sitting in a bar and a

[25:28] fourth idiot comes in and they're all drinking. It turns out the fourth idi idiot is a an FBI informant. That's right. And he says as they're drinking, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should blow up the Route 82 bridge. How cool would that be?" Oh, yeah. That would be really cool. He provides the inert explosives that he got from the FBI. And when they went to push the plunger down, nothing happened. The FBI came out of the bushes and grabbed all three of them. They got 20, 25, and 30 years in a federal penitentiary.

[25:59] >> And it was the FBI's idea to blow up the 82. >> I I remember that when the in that particular case, the judge um when the sentencing took place, the argument was of course that they were entrapped, right? And the judge was trying to explain that look on every level yes this is entrapment except on the most important level which is that there is a legal definition that says the moment you say yes it is no longer someone who has planted this idea with you it's now your own right but and again

[26:30] [clears throat] we've we've seen this replicated so many times >> yes >> what I think is so powerful is that >> John Keryaku you have been elevated especially in recent It's craziest >> months. This year has been crazy for you. I know. >> But I I it's it had to be a hilarious moment. If you're sitting in the courtroom where you're in the jury, >> everybody knows John Kuryaku. >> Well, that's a funny thing actually. That's a funny thing. During uh Vardier, where they choose the jury.

[27:00] >> Yes. >> The judge said, "I have certified John Kuryaku as an expert witness in this case. Have any of you heard of John Kuryaku?" And of the 35 people that were there, 13 of them raised their hands. They had heard of John Kuryaku. And he said, um, if John Kuryaku were to give you a specific opinion, are any of you predisposed to do what John Kiryaku tells you to do? And nine of the 13 kept their hands up. And they were all dismissed. >> They were dismissed.

[27:30] >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> That's so interesting. >> I'm very touched that people take to heart what it is that I'm saying. >> Mhm. But but imagine the the the audacity of a prosecutor to sit there and say that you're a criminal. >> You're just a common criminal. >> Common criminal. And I love the I love the response to say, "I don't think I'm common at all." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> According to your definition, a criminal, but certainly not common. >> And he said to me at the end, he said, >> it was the the last question that he had. He said, "At the end of the day, you really are just a criminal." And I

[28:01] sat there and he says, "No response this time." >> And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I was waiting for a question. Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. >> And then the judge says, "Move on, please." >> Yes. Yeah. It's like throwing insults at you. >> Yeah. It's like, "Okay, you can insult me all you want." >> Sure. >> It's not going to change anything. >> And it and it doesn't change the fact that that you know what you're talking about. It doesn't change the fact that you have the ability to read and understand because even a child can read and understand what they're doing. Um but but so few people have the guts to say it.

[28:31] >> Yeah. That's a shame. I get a lot of emails from wouldbe whistleblowers. >> And I'm gonna say it's in the single digits, the percentage who actually go out and say something. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You have become the king of Cameo. >> Yeah. It's crazy. [laughter] >> So for for folks who don't know, can you explain what Cameo is? >> Sure. Cameo is an app. >> Yeah. >> Where D-list celebrities are represented. For example, let's say you

[29:02] like some terrible reality show >> and um you especially like one person who's on this reality show. You can hire that person to do a 60 to, you know, 120 second video saying, "Hey, Ben, I heard that it's your birthday. Happy birthday. Hey, thanks for liking the show." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, so Cameo called me on I I still remember the date. It was February 28th. >> Yeah. >> Of this year. And they said, "Hey, have

[29:32] you ever heard of Cameo?" And I said, "Sure. My brother-in-law got my sister a Cameo a few years ago." It was kind of fun. >> They said, "Would you like to do it?" >> I said, "Sure, why not?" >> Yeah. >> So, it took me under five minutes to write a little bio and post a picture of myself. And they said, "Just price it at $50. The algorithm will change the price every 15 minutes depending on your popularity." >> I said, "Okay." Well, I did 900 cameos just in the month of March. I set this new record.

[30:04] >> Yeah. >> I've done about 2600 so far and uh they just keep going. So about 50% of them are birthday wishes. >> Okay. >> And then everybody wants a story from the CIA. >> Yeah. >> Fewer want a story from prison, but I think frankly those are some of the better stories. And um and then there are like you can get a roast or ask for advice or get a pep talk about 10% of

[30:35] them are pep talks or advice. >> Okay. >> And then once you book one of these cameos and and they they can be expensive. Like for me I wouldn't spend >> right >> $180 for John to say happy birthday but a lot of people do. Um, but it gives you the right to then text me >> and I can you for free and then I can text you back. >> So, out of these 2600, about 200 have been requests for advice or pep talks. Three have texted me back

[31:06] afterwards and said that I actually talked them out of committing suicide. H >> there was one girl in particular, 15 years old, suffering from bulimia, very low self-esteem, difficult relationship with her parents. And the message that she sent me asking for a cameo just sounded to me to be so desperate. >> I said in the cameo, "Listen, we're not supposed to do this, but here's my phone number. I want you to call me right now."

[31:36] >> And she called me. We were on the phone for quite some time. Um, and I talked her out of it. >> And then she's called me twice since then, each time for less than a minute. >> And she said she just needed to hear a friendly voice, you know, in the midst of a bad day. >> And I I'm glad that I could be helpful. >> So many people will focus obviously on this, you know, kind of newfound celebrity and it's all about, you know, building their brand. And I feel like you're first of all, no one is more

[32:07] deserving. >> Oh, thank the moment. >> I'm actually taking a lot of heat for that. >> Yeah. I I had a daily podcast with a with a dear friend of mine >> and I had to leave that podcast because there's so much going on. I can't do a podcast every single day. I can't. >> Yeah. >> And I'm surprised at the um >> viciousness >> of some of the comments on the podcast now that I've gone that I sold out, I abandoned my friends. It's like, what are you talking about? M >> I I've been poor for 19 years. I'm 62

[32:42] years old in a couple of weeks. >> My parents both died in their 60s. >> I don't know how much time I'm going to have. I have five kids. Two of them are in college right now, right? >> I need to make a couple of dollars. >> Yeah. And again, I I don't know anyone who's more deserving of it than you are. Um because you've been so >> horrifically mistreated. >> Yes. you've had your career stolen from you. >> Um, you've been demonized. You've been shunned. You've been forced out of everything. And then all of a sudden,

[33:12] like, here he comes >> and >> roaring back. >> Roaring back. And it's been incredible. I want to talk a little bit about, and I just want to say before I say that, how amazing it is that, you know, 2,600 cameos, right, are great. It's exciting. It's it's >> you're making bank, >> but for the three people whose lives you you pull out of >> I take that very seriously. >> It's a big deal. >> It's a very big deal. >> I take it very seriously.

[33:43] >> You've had some challenges in marriage. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned you have five kids. >> Talk about because I don't think that gets a lot of conversation in a lot of your your no stuff. People want to hear the the the the shocking stories. There's also and those are like little highlights of life, right? >> Sure. >> But then there's this thing you have to go back to every day, right? And that you live with and especially in the midst of struggling through a divorce because your divorce well twice

[34:16] >> have not been easy. >> No. Oh my god. No. >> I wouldn't wish my divorce on anybody. >> Yeah. You know, my first marriage, we we got married too young. >> Uh grew in different directions. All the cliches are true. >> Yeah. >> Um she went her way, I went mine, and then I remarried someone from the CIA. >> Yes. >> And I'll be honest with you, Ben, she was the love of my life. >> Truly.

[34:47] >> And stuck with me all through these troubles. Kept our family together. Amazing. And then just decided that no, she'd rather be with this guy over here >> from work. >> Yeah. >> And so we split up. I took it very, very hard. And we fought bitterly in court over custody. >> Yeah. >> I'll tell you, at my lowest point, I I was suffering from terrible insomnia. I just could not sleep.

[35:19] And don't laugh at me because I'm a former CIA officer, but I have one of those Alexas next to my bed. >> And I know we're not supposed to. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Right. But >> we'll we'll we'll reserve judgment. [laughter] Go ahead. >> But it plays the radio for me and it's my alarm clock. >> They're listening anyways, but everything else >> anyways. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm laying in bed. It's 3:00 in the morning and I said, "Alexa, what percentage of marriages that begin

[35:49] as affairs end in divorce?" And she says with that chipper voice, "The percentage of marriages that begin as affairs and end in divorce is 93%." And I thought, "Yes, I'm going to be vindicated." >> And I was after 14 months. M >> and um but I still it still didn't make me feel better. I still couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. I was depressed all the time. And then

[36:21] I started doing this thing. It's going to sound stupid. It's going to sound silly, but it worked for me. >> Okay. I would lay there in bed and say out loud, "You're a nice guy and you don't deserve to be treated this way." >> And I would repeat it to myself, "You're a nice guy and you don't deserve to be treated this way." And after saying that 500 times, >> you started to believe it. >> It kind of snapped me out of it. >> Huh. >> Yeah. It snapped me out of it.

[36:53] >> And you know, I I got to tell you, and this is going to sound a little bit conceited. I I will admit to you, but I like myself. I like the way things turned out. >> My ex-wife used to call it arrogance. I would say I'm right and they're wrong and I'm sticking by my guns. >> That's awfully arrogant. No. History has shown that I was right and they were wrong. >> That's right. And so I'm proud of that

[37:26] and I'm okay with the way things turned out. I wish that I wasn't a convicted uh national security felon. I wish that President Trump or any other president would give me a presidential pardon. I'm still hopeful that that's the case, that that's what ends up coming to pass. >> Yes. >> But if it doesn't, I'm okay with that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because you're a nice guy and you don't deserve to be treated [laughter] this way. How long did it take for you to believe that?

[37:56] >> Oh, it it it was a little while. Um, my ex >> You said it 500 times. It probably took you 499. >> Yeah, probably. Um, we we were married in 2003. We were divorced in 2018. >> Okay. >> I felt like myself again. >> I'm going to say 2022. >> It took a while. >> Yeah, >> it took a while. >> Yeah. All five kids are from that marriage. No, I have two from my first marriage and three from my second. And that's another really

[38:27] really extraordinarily difficult thing. >> Um, my first two kids, they're older. They're 33 and 30. My oldest is a uh bond trader in Chicago. My second is an elementary school music teacher in North Carolina. >> And they've cut me off. Um, they said that that I'm a criminal, that I've embarrassed them, that I've stood in the way of their careers. Cut me off. >> It will be >> blow blowing the whistle on CIA torture

[38:59] limits the the teaching music >> advancement. Yeah. Right. In elementary music. Yes. >> Yeah. Right. >> Interesting. >> I'm glad that you've taken it the same way I took it because I'm like, what are you talking about? >> Yeah. >> They cut me off. It'll be 11 years ago next month. No contact for 11 years. >> Zero contact. >> Wow. >> And I, you know, for years I would I would call and leave a voicemail on their birthdays, on Christmas, on Easter, send text messages, nothing. I would send cards and gifts and they

[39:29] would just return return to sender, they would write on the uh on the envelope. And then finally, I gave up. I gave up in in 2022. >> Then I have three children from my second marriage. Um, I have a son who's 21, a daughter who's 19, and a son who's 14. My 21-year-old son and I are this close. >> Yeah. >> Travel together all the time. We talk every day or every couple of days. We text each other. We have similar interests, like a lot of similar interests. >> Um, my daughter and I were also like we

[40:00] couldn't have been closer. And then it's funny, she the the divorce was very difficult for her and she ended up spending 13 months in a mental health facility. >> Oh, I'm so sorry. >> 13 months. >> It it quite literally bankrupted me. >> And um she used to sneak into the nurse's lounge and call me and beg me to get her out of this hospital. And I would say, "Honey, I am working so hard. We're

[40:30] going to court again in a couple of weeks. I'm I'm begging the judge. I'm doing everything I can. She called me on Father's Day, June of 2022, to tell me happy Father's Day. My birthday is seven weeks later. >> Okay. >> Never heard from her again. >> And when she finally turned 18, which was just afterwards, I called, I texted, left voicemails, nothing. nothing at all. So now the

[41:01] fight is over our 14year-old and I'm I'm trying my best. It's extraordinarily expensive. I spent in my first case I spent $1,150,000 to defend myself. >> My divorce, my second divorce, I spent another million dollars. >> Oh my gosh. >> Which meant that I had to zero out every retirement account. I have no stocks, no bonds, no savings. I have nothing. Nothing. And like I said, I'm 62 years

[41:32] old, right? >> I'd like to retire someday, too, but I have literally nothing. And that's why this, you know, cameo >> is it's a godsend. >> Yes. >> I started doing voiceovers for television commercials. I mean, who would have thought? >> I'll give you an example. There's a there's a television series on on a network called Paramount Plus called The Agency. Mhm. >> I practically begged them >> to hire me as the script consultant. They weren't interested. >> And then I got famous.

[42:03] >> Well, they already have a script consultant, so now they asked if I would read the voice over for the television commercials advertising the show. >> Oh, wow. >> So, I've done three of them so far. >> Fantastic. >> So, you know, things are starting to fall into place and, you know, maybe someday I'll be able to actually buy a house. My car is 14 years old. One of these days I'll get a new car. You know, something like that. It's things are working out. >> Yes. So, you're you're you're in a battle though still, you said, for the

[42:34] 14-year-old. Yeah. >> That's a that's a custody battle >> still taking place. >> Yes. >> But you haven't spoken to the the daughter who turned 18 in 2022. >> Yeah. Four years for four years. >> No. What are we? Yeah. 2026. Yes. Four years. >> So, she's also no contact. >> No contact. And I'll tell you, Ben, I never really heard of this no contact. It's it's a Gen Z thing. >> It's a brand new thing. >> It's a brand new thing. There are books that are just now coming out about like what to do, why this happens,

[43:05] >> and um and I've bought them all. I've read them all. >> Yes. >> The bottom line is, yeah, this is a terrible thing. Yes. It's it's the nuclear option. >> Yes. >> But it's it's happening. And all you can do is make them understand that when they're ready to come around >> Yes. that you're yes amendable to it. >> It's it's one of the reasons we're doing this podcast actually. There are it's an epidemic. >> It's an epidemic that's taking place. I would call it the same thing. Yes. >> You have this insanity of therapy

[43:37] culture. There's so many things wrong with it. Oh, yeah. But specifically on this no contact thing, right, the whole idea is well, you have to protect your peace, >> right? >> You have to set these boundaries, right? It's all about safety and all these words they throw around. >> Oh my god, how [snorts] I hate the word safety. I think it's my most hated word now because it's thrown out so casually >> and everything is safety. >> Everything you say any word to me that I don't like, right? Your tone makes me feel unsafe. If you if you want to talk

[44:08] about something directly instead of this passive aggressive [ __ ] >> I'm unsafe. Everything is about safety. Yeah. And so >> call a cop. Oh, absolutely. >> If you feel if you feel unsafe, call a cop. >> Yeah. Well, the problem is is that when you now are framing everything >> through the lens of every emotion, every word, every action makes me unsafe. >> Yeah. >> It's very difficult for someone to argue with you to say, "Oh, you'll be fine or

[44:38] you are safe." Because we we have these built-in mechanism for every other generation besides Gen Z has a built-in mechanism to say, "Well, you're not supposed to put someone in an unsafe situation." Right. >> Right. The problem is is that they're not unsafe. >> Right. They're not unsafe. >> Someone saying comfortable. >> Ah, >> that's what it is. >> You know, words are important. Well, they're important to you and me. But for so many other people, especially in this generation, it's like words are misused

[45:08] or misconstrued. Somebody [laughter] in a in a previous job, somebody filed a complaint against me with human resources and I was like, what in the world could I possibly have done to warrant a complaint to human resources? It was that when I came into the office one morning, I said, "Good morning, guys." >> The word guys. >> Guys,

[45:38] >> because one of the guys decided that he some days doesn't feel like a guy, he feels like a woman. >> And that that was a microaggression. I had never heard that word before, a microaggression. >> And I wanted to say, "Grow up, kid." >> Yeah. Exactly. Like like you have created we've we have created as a society this this world in which first of all every feeling must be validated. Yes. Right. And if you're not validating everything I feel now it's again it's

[46:09] another transgression. It's another harmful thing you've done to me. [snorts] >> It's like >> but what happens and what I see happening is that we my my sister talked to me the other night. We were talking and she said I I heard that you hate therapy. [laughter] her son was watching the podcast. She says, "I heard you hate therapy." I said, "I don't hate therapy." And she was explaining to me like how in like her life there have been moments when she needed I said, "Listen, >> yeah, God bless >> people need that." >> Sure. >> I I've been to therapy and at times it's

[46:42] there's no problem with therapy. >> No. When my father died suddenly, I couldn't have gotten through it without therapy. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially when there is real tragedy or real traumatic events. Mhm. >> Now, trauma is another word that I triggers me. Trigger is another word that triggers me. But >> me, too. >> But trauma, the problem with with the discussion about trauma is that everything is considered traumatic now. Yes. Right. And so what that does though >> is that demeanes real trauma. That's

[47:12] right. Right. When everything is abuse, it demeans the victims of real abuse. When everything is unsafe, it demeanes the victims of actual lack of safety or dangerous situations or people who really are victims of violence or victims of of of whose lives are in danger at times. And so what we've done is we've conflated everything. And this is a lot of this part of the reason I think it's a jinzee thing is it's it's all tied into social media >> where they hear this language and they

[47:44] hear everyone talk this way and because everyone wants to be special. We think that one of the ways we've taught Gen Z that one of the ways to be special is to be offended, to be hurt, and to be a victim. >> Right. Generationally, we come from generations where we wanted to get rid of labels. >> Yes. >> Gen Z has become the most labeled, self-labeled generation. >> Self labelled. Yes. >> Labeling themselves with everything they can possibly find. And in my opinion, my

[48:17] humble opinion, not scientific here. Therapy culture is making people crazy. >> Yeah. >> It's making people narcissistic. It's making people lose their minds. Cutting off your family instead of talking to them. >> Is the worst thing. Not for the person you're cutting off, by the way, because that person ends up doing just fine. Yes, they hurt. Yes, it's painful, but they're going to be okay. The person who's really harmed by cutting off a family member is the person doing the

[48:48] cutting. >> Totally agree. >> And they're being told, "This is good for you. This is going to actually save you or help you." And it's not. >> And you know, one of the sad results of this this no contact culture. >> Well, it's this. It's, you know, people tell me all the time, "Oh, don't worry. Someday they're going to come back." Well, you know what? God forgive me. After 11 years, I don't care if they come back. >> I don't really know those guys anymore.

[49:18] >> Yep. >> Yes. They're my sons. >> And it it was a tragedy and it was heartbreaking for me to be cut off like that. But I'm at the point now where I don't really know anything about them. >> And um if they were to come back, I'm I'm not sure that I would welcome that. >> Like I said, I like my life the way it is. >> Yes. So why upset the >> that would yeah that would become a conscious decision to say >> now we have to make this work. >> Yeah.

[49:49] >> And the other thing is if you are coming back don't think that that means that now you come back for me to apologize >> for being cut off what I don't even know what I did >> and and I don't know what I did and I I used to text all the time like please at least tell me what it is that I did. >> Nothing. No response. I' I've never ever gotten a response. >> Yeah. >> Never. >> It's Do you have you remained in contact with your first wife? >> No. >> So, you're completely se cut off from

[50:20] her, too? >> Yeah. Completely cut. I Oddly enough, I've I've been in touch with her new husband. >> Huh? >> Yeah. Who was a supporter of mine when I blew the whistle. It's weird, right? >> Interesting. >> Um, and he's a very sweet guy. And I'll tell you what, I always liked him because he always treated my parents with respect. >> Yeah. I always liked him. >> Interesting. >> He's an older guy. >> And I think that helped. >> I I think that's what it was.

[50:50] >> But uh but I always liked and respected him. >> But my ex my first wife and I no contact at all. My my second wife um the last words that I spoke to her were, "I don't ever want to speak to you again as long as I live. M >> and then that was it. October 9th, 2019. >> Everything since then's been through lawyers. >> We live Yeah. Everything has been through lawyers. Everything. We live 3/4 of a mile from each other. We run into each other every once in a while at the grocery store or in the Target and we

[51:22] just pretend that >> we're complete strangers to each other. >> Yeah. >> Um how is that process for you in terms of releasing her? Because you're not releasing her from love. >> No. Now you're releasing her from rage and harm and what you've done to me and bankrupted me in so many ways. >> You know, I'm so glad that you that you asked that. I went to Australia a couple of years ago. I snuck into Australia because I'm banned for life. >> So, I was invited to give a speech at the University of Sydney and I went in a

[51:53] kind of a roundabout way through Mexico City. It was all very complicated. But um her second husband was an Australian guy that she had worked with and I called him when I was in Australia and I scared the hell out of him when I he says, "Hello, this is Nick." [laughter] I said, "Hello, Nick. This is John Kiryaku." Silence. And then he says, "What can I do for you, mate?" And I said, "I'm in

[52:23] Australia. Don't worry. I don't mean you any harm. I just wanted to tell you I've given this a lot of thought and I forgive you. >> And he said, "Really?" And I said, "Really?" I said, "You shouldn't have you shouldn't have gone with another man's wife. That was not cool, but you didn't owe me loyalty. She did >> and I forgive you." And he said, "Thank you." And I said, "You're welcome." And I hung up the phone. And the the truth

[52:54] of the matter is I didn't do that to make him feel better. >> He probably doesn't care one wit if John Kiryaku forgives him or not. >> Yeah. >> But it sure made me feel better. >> And I got to tell you, as far as my second wife goes, um I have no hard feelings whatsoever. >> Time has passed. >> I'm beyond it all. >> I just don't care anymore. But you're still dealing with custody.

[53:25] >> Yeah, custody is still an issue. >> So, how do you how do you find yourself? Because you're in a good place. >> And how how did you get to that for for men who might watch this and say, "I'm going through either a bitter divorce or a custody fight." >> Yeah. >> Or she's dragging this thing out and just draining away what little I have, >> which also happens >> a lot. Well, the only the only point at which I was able to finally say I'm past it

[53:59] >> is when I decided to stop actively fighting and just let the let the court system do what the court system was going to do. I was obsessed >> with custody. Obsessed to the point where I lost friends over it. They were like, "Can't you talk about anything else in life?" And I'm like, "No, I can't." >> Yeah. >> And then when I just decided, "This is just killing me and it's making me into somebody that I don't like." >> Um, and I was able to sort of push it

[54:29] off to the side. Everything changed. Everything, you know, I started doing things that I had never done before. Some They're going to sound silly, Ben, but I'd say like during COVID especially, I want to listen to jazz this weekend. And so I just get on a plane and fly to New Orleans for the weekend and listen to jazz and then fly back to Washington. >> Yeah. >> And feel better. >> Yeah. >> I've never done that before in my life. Yeah. >> Never. >> Um I had never been to the Grand Old

[54:59] Opry >> in Nashville and there's a Canadian band that I really like >> and so I flew to Nashville and went to the Grand Opry. Never ever ever have I ever done something like that. >> I said, "You know what? I've never been to Montana. And so I called an old boss of mine who's one of my dearest friends and I said, I was working at Sputnik at the time and we upgraded the technology. Okay. And so we closed for a week >> and um

[55:29] >> and the general manager said, "Listen, everybody gets a week off and it doesn't count against uh vacation, so just go enjoy your week." I said, "I've never been to Montana." >> So I called my old boss. I said, "Don, I have a free week. I want to go to Montana. I want you to come with me. All expenses paid. So, we flew to Denver and uh and rented a car. We had lunch in Nebraska only because I had never been to Nebraska and we were driving within 20 miles of it. Yeah. >> Then we had as a base we used Deadwood,

[56:00] South Dakota. And then every day we'd just drive in a different direction. We went to Standing Rock, North Dakota, Bismar, North Dakota. I went to the Cheyenne Reservation in Wyoming. We went to Billings, Montana and the Battle of Little Bigghorn National uh monument and I got to see a part of America I have never ever seen before. And then we stayed in this 19th century historic hotel. And it's funny, every room is named after a famous person who slept in

[56:31] that room. And >> so I slept in the Babe Ruth room. >> Yeah. >> And my friend was in the Ruddard Kipling room. >> It was fun. >> Yeah. And then once so my point is once you start doing things for yourself once you get to the point where you like yourself you want to spend time with yourself in your own mind >> it's liberating. >> Yeah >> it's liberating. >> Okay I totally get that. But it feels like especially when you've come out of marriages and children and the whole

[57:02] process that you had been in. But most people aren't going to go through everything else you went through. But they they'll come out of those things. When you come out of those things, how do you find the space to decide whether you even like yourself or not? How do you do that? Because you don't know yourself. >> No, you don't. And you know, funny thing, too, is um even in my 60s, I realized that I'm constantly changing. >> Yes. >> I've always been a hard worker. Always.

[57:34] I've never worked as hard as I work now. >> To the point where my partner said, "You you should develop a hobby." >> I don't have any hobbies. >> Yeah. >> I used to. >> Yeah. >> And so we had a director here uh at the studio who was into astrophotography and he and I would talk and he would show me these incredible pictures that he took. And so

[58:04] I bought a uh a telescope and a camera with an adapter and I've taken amazing pictures of deep space. >> Wow. >> Now you have to wait until there's a clear night. >> Yes. >> But um >> but I'll sit out there for four, five, six hours. >> Really? >> Yeah. Just sitting there >> watching my picture come into focus on an iPad. And it's it's wonderful and it's relaxing and I have these beautiful pictures to show for it. >> Um, art I mentioned a few minutes ago is

[58:35] another thing, something that my that my third son and I share. >> Um, when I was in college, I worked for a labor union called the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, and they wanted to do a fundraiser for cancer research one time. And so they um contracted with an art gallery, a local Washington DC art gallery to sell art at these inflated prices at an auction. >> Mhm. >> And so most of it was trash. >> Framed posters and stuff like that. Junk. >> Yeah.

[59:06] >> And then at the end was at the end of the auction, the auctioneer tried to make kind of a big deal. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a serious piece of art. Serious collectors only, please. you know, made a big deal. And it was a it was a signed and numbered print by Pablo >> Picasso. >> And so he says, uh, >> now the bidding for everything else was $50, $100, $500. He says the bidding is going to start at $2,500.

[59:37] Now granted, this is 40 years ago. >> Yeah. >> So he says, "Do I hear $2,500? Anybody?" And my job at this auction was they made me put on white gloves and I would pick up the art and put it on easel. [laughter] >> Silly silly to think of. So 2,500 anybody 25,500. And I looked around and people were just sitting there like they'll spend $50 or $100, but they're not going to spend $2,500. I put my hand in the air and the auctioneer said," he

[1:00:08] whispered, "Seriously?" And I said, "Seriously, I have $2,500. I had been saving for a trip to Europe. and I got it for $2,500. It was my very first piece of art. Well, now I've got I sold that Picasso actually, but I have three Andy Warhols, a Jasper John's, a Roy Likenstein, a Fernando Bero. Serious serious art. >> And my son is as serious as I am. Mhm. >> So, one of the things that we can share is

[1:00:39] um we go to auctions together >> and uh I mean there have to be 500 auction houses in the United States, but there's one website for all 500 of them called live >> auctioneers.com. >> And so we're both constantly on live auctioneers like, "Hey, look at this. Hey, look at that. Oh, look at this." I found him a a WPA, a Works Progress Administration painting of of a New York City doc scene from 1934.

[1:01:10] >> Wow. >> And uh and got it for him for his birthday. >> Yeah. >> I hope he's not going to listen to this podcast because he doesn't know yet and his birthday's in October. >> But um but it's one of those things that we can share. >> Yeah. And so, you know, since I got divorced and I've had the time to focus on myself, >> I've realized that there's a lot out there that brings me pleasure. Another thing that we do is baseball. >> I'm a lifelong baseball fan. >> And um one of my friends and uh and

[1:01:41] attorneys, Bruce Fine, who has been on many of our shows, >> Bruce's father was a relief pitcher for the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 1950s. So Bruce grew up around baseball. He has season tickets to the Washington Nationals. He always buys more tickets than he needs. He and I go to games and we usually bring Thomas Massie with us or Thomas Massiey's chief of staff if the congressman is busy and we struck up this friendship. Well, my son loves baseball as much as I do. Okay. >> He's living in Columbus, Ohio right now

[1:02:13] working for DHL >> and um >> and Pittsburgh is the halfway point. Well, we both love the Pittsburgh Pirates, as terrible a team as they have been historically. And so we'll meet in Pittsburgh. We'll go to a Saturday game, spend a night in a hotel, go to the Sunday game, I drive back to Washington, he drives back to Columbus, Ohio. >> So you just you move on in life and you find things that make you happy. >> And and if you maybe you're not happy with your life, you change the things that are not making you happy. Right.

[1:02:43] That's right. Discover things. Learn to be someone that you want to be. It really is as simple as that. >> Yeah. >> And and for some people, it may be harder to actually implement that, but you've got to try because it will make you happier. >> And what what won't make you happier is trying to control the things you can't control. >> Oh my god. That's literally the definition of anxiety. >> Yeah. >> Worrying about the future and specifically about something that you have no control over. >> That's the definition of anxiety. your

[1:03:14] story um has kind of been through so many iterations. The point that you're at now, uh I I'll make this my last question. You've been so generous with your time. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> What do you want to see happen in your life in the next couple of years? >> I recently signed um with a talent agency, the creative artist agency. >> Yeah. >> Biggest talent agency in the world. And they asked me exactly the same question in our first

[1:03:45] >> in our first meeting. And I said, you know, I'm in my 60s. I don't really need material things. I have material things and I'm giving them away now. Um, I'd like to buy a house >> and I would like to be vindicated. I want a presidential pardon more than anything. And I'd like to buy a house or an apartment. And that's it. >> Yeah. >> That's all I want. >> Wow. >> Nothing else.

[1:04:15] >> Very simple stuff. >> That's it. >> Love it. Before we go, I want to ask you one funny thing. >> You've become a sex symbol. >> How crazy is this? [laughter] >> You've become sex symbol. I think you're a great guy. Never seen you as a sex symbol. >> No. >> And yet you are >> Oh, Ben. >> Hounded online. >> Oh, Ben. Ben. [laughter] I I hired an assistant. Yeah. One of my best friends, his daughter. >> Yeah. >> And she said to me the other day, she's 27. She said to me the other day, you

[1:04:46] know, you get nudes every single day. >> Nudes. >> Nudes. Women send naked pictures of themselves. >> Only women. >> It's so far. Okay. >> Knock on wood. So far, it's only only women. >> I said, "What? Are you kidding me?" She said, "I just delete them." >> And I said, "Yeah, just keep deleting them." Yeah. and she said, "I I've never seen any such thing. They're from like 18 to 70 and they're sending me >> 18 to 70." >> Yeah. Like the ages of 18 to 70.

[1:05:17] >> So you have 70 year olds sending nudes. >> Sending nudes. And I said, "Delete all of them." >> I don't know if they're 18. >> Yeah. >> And that's that's what I >> Sounds like a honey trap right there. >> Yeah. Exactly. I said, "No, just delete them. I don't even want to know." But I've had three marriage proposals. >> Really? >> Uhhuh. And day before yesterday, a a young man tattooed a picture of my face on his leg. >> Yes. You showed me this. >> It's just >> We'll We'll get a shot of it and put it on the screen so people can see [laughter] this.

[1:05:49] >> It's incredible. I I've also seen online my my daughter-in-law, she was talking about you the other day and she said, "Did you know there's all these pages that are like I want to have sex with John Keraku [laughter] pages and she says like all these girls are like losing their minds over you and they're not necessarily 70 years old." >> No, they're like many of them are gorgeous and young girls and they >> Yeah. Which is kind of creepy because I have children older than them. >> Yes. Uh yeah, I'm >> What do you think is that? What is the phenomenon behind that? Do you think is

[1:06:20] it is it just a obsession with the fame? Do you think it's it's the stories you tell also or that that there is a part of you that is sympathetic enough that it's like I want to be the one to make him whole? What do you think it is? >> Oh boy. Oh boy. >> I know it's a tough question. >> Oh, I think it's a combination of things. >> Yeah, >> we have this star culture. I'm not a star. I've I'll never consider myself to be a star. >> Well, you have way too much substance to be a star. >> Thank you. Yeah, that's that's what I've

[1:06:52] been going for. Yeah, >> that's how I want to be seen. >> Yeah. >> And um CIA actually commissioned a study >> about why I'm popular. >> Really? >> Yeah. They said recently that I'm the most popular man in the world for men between 15 and 30. >> Crazy, right? >> And the reason >> I absolutely believe it, by the way. >> It's It's crazy. But the reason is that

[1:07:24] I'm seen as honest and I'm not trying to put a spin on anything. >> You and I have joked in the past that I'm an equal opportunity hater. That's what I called myself. I hate the Democrats. I hate the Republicans. I I hate Washington. They're all criminals and crooked [snorts] politicians and I just hate everybody. >> Yes. >> Not really, but you know what I mean. >> I know what you mean. >> Yeah. >> But that has struck a nerve with people with especially young men between 15 and 30. >> And so they see me as somebody that's

[1:07:56] going to give it to them with honesty. Mhm. >> Now, among young women, there's actually a petition out there now with tens of thousands of signatures trying to get me on this TV show, Dancing with the Stars. >> Yeah. >> But I used to joke with my sister. My sister used to watch it and I would always ask, >> "Which ones are the stars?" And >> I never heard of any of these people. [laughter] >> So, >> you would be the most famous person on the interview with the stars

[1:08:27] except for Emit Smith. I know him at Smith as a as the whole thing. >> Yeah. >> Uh would you do it if you had a chance? >> I think I would. >> You think you would? You should. >> I think I would. >> You should. Yeah. >> I think it would just be fun. >> How does How does your partner feel about all this attention? >> Uh not good. >> Not good. >> No. >> She doesn't like the fact that you get nudes all day long. >> No. >> Yeah. >> That's especially what she doesn't like. >> Yeah. >> So, how do you balance that? How do you how do you make her feel safe?

[1:08:59] [laughter] >> Usually we go to a Palestinian restaurant and have, you know, hummus and kibbe and stuff like that and and everything's fine by the end of the dinner. Yeah. >> Sometimes I have to raise my voice and say, "Listen, >> I'm with you." >> Yeah. Right. I'm with you. I'm not with some 20-year-old. I'm with you. She's even older than I am. >> Oh, >> yeah. She's 65. >> Okay. I'm I'm going to be 62 in a couple of weeks. And I'm like, look, I've chosen you. >> Yeah.

[1:09:30] >> You don't have to worry about anything else. And listen, I I'm I might be a lot of things in life. >> A cheater is not one of them. >> Ever. >> I think every part of your life to this point has demonstrated and proven that. [laughter] >> I think so. I think so. >> John Keryaku, a pleasure talking with you. >> Thank you so much, Ben. Pleasure is mine.
