[00:04] he is such an awesome man I just love that guy okay let me uh bring in Mr Kaku sorry hello hello how are you hi John thank you for being able to be with us oh I'm very happy to oh we still have uh Dr Robert Duncan on he he he's has more
[00:36] time but um Mr bny had to hang up ah I'm sorry uh so I'm just gonna introduce you really quick uh John kiraku you just recently were released from prison after serving was it 30 months uh 20 23 months of a 30-month sentence okay um former CIA analyst and case officer former senior investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee former
[01:07] counterterrorism consultant for ABC News blogger for Huffington Post um the first US government official to confirm in December of 2007 under the Bush Administration uh that water boarding was being used to interrogate uh people at not just iguano but black sites all over the world um on October 22nd of 2012 you pleaded guilty to disclosing classified
[01:38] information about a fellow CIA officer that connected the covert operative to a specific operation uh he he were the first person to pass classified information to a reporter although the reporter did not publish um the information uh so right you were sentence 30 months but served 23 out of the 30 um and it was in Loretto Pennsylvania correct so thank you for
[02:09] being able to be on organic news here on awake radio I'm very happy to be here thanks for inviting me um I so yeah and Dr Robert Duncan is um still with us so yeah we were having a really good conversation and so okay first how long were you working for the the CIA I was there for 14 and a half years and and how how was your time there I'll be honest with you I loved
[02:40] the CIA I felt like I was really making a contribution really making a difference and I worked with some really great people I worked with some Psychopathic lunatics but most were really great people and and so right I mean like the people were there they were really you know interested in doing the right thing and going after right the yeah you know when when I first got to the CIA I I kept my politics to myself I I'm a lifelong
[03:12] Progressive pretty pretty hardcore Progressive and um and I kept it to myself because I was afraid that um that I wouldn't really fit in and it might make it a little difficult to to get along day today and the longer I was there the more I realized that the is is uh it's full of progressives just like me uh you know I've always maintained that the Republican party and the conservative movement in in our country do not have a monopoly on patriotism Liberals are Patriots and I was I was
[03:44] very proud to be there and for a long time I felt like I was really doing great work for an important cause and then September 11th came and uh everything everything changed what like exactly like what was what would the contrast B well I had switched to operations from analysis in in 1998 and um after the September 11th attacks we began
[04:14] opening secret sites and then torture entered the Lexicon yeah and uh it just it just wasn't the same it it was as though it was as though so many so many senior level and even mid senior CIA officers had something to prove that they could be tougher and meaner and angrier than anybody else and it just became an ugly Place yeah that's unfortunate and so it was in
[04:46] 2007 that you exposed water boarding as that was happening when it was actually they they were completely lying and saying that they were weren't using torture um they you know they you know that they weren't doing you know any of this stuff that's right the president actually came right out and said we are not torturing prisoners and I knew that that was a lie right that see that that just cracks me
[05:19] up that uh most Americans focus on waterboarding they don't focus on shocks or Burns and other physical beatings or uh the them to be naked and perform sexual acts and sexual Manner and duct tape over the eyes and hypothermia and Heat injury and mock executions and threats to family I mean it goes on and on they don't get Medicare the uh medical service they don't have food or
[05:50] water I mean it goes on the list of tortures are like you know I have you know four pages of torture techniques they use but we focus on water boarding and that's not even the worst of them yes you're you're absolutely right I I agree with that I I always thought that there were even approved uh torture techniques that were worse than water boarding we know now that uh that sleep deprivation actually caused some prisoners to lose their minds and they to uh participate in their own defenses
[06:21] absolutely you got it correct there sir and then the and then the cold cell resulted in the death of one prisoner it was so extreme yeah well oh I didn't even mention uh rectal feeding which one prisoner died because of the you know the force trauma and they bled to death through the rectum yeah no I mean this this is torture and I can't believe the US government calls it by a new name just the euphan ism enhanced interrogation there is no
[06:51] difference and um so they they arrested you again under the was it the Espionage Act I'm sorry can you say that again I'm sorry um did they arrest you under the Espionage Act Yes actually I was charged with three counts of Espionage um all as a as a result of having a conversation about torture with a reporter from The New York Times and a reporter from ABC News uh they charged me with Espionage despite the fact that the reporter said in the article that he wrote that uh he
[07:23] had interviewed 24 current and former US and foreign intelligence offic officers for whatever reason the justice department decided to go only after me and you you had pointed out I believe it was on Democracy Now that this is not a case about um leaking leaking no it never was it was right it was more about just exposing the the torture yes the the CIA never forgave me for exposing
[07:55] the the torture program in 2007 and the justice department began investigating me just a few days later and that investigation lasted until January of 2012 when I was finally charged with with five felonies and you you had also said that uh people leak classified information all the time and you mentioned uh names like David Petraeus and um what was the other guy's name manetta uh Leon Panetta was the director
[08:27] of CIA before uh Petraeus was and so right so it's they just basically like make up the rules as they go they they do and the truth of the matter and I don't mean to make light of of leaking but leaking is what makes Washington operate people leak all the time every single day and most of the time those leaks are done on purpose because they make whoever happens to be in power uh look good uh they they make it these leaks make it look like
[08:59] presidents know what they're doing secretaries of state are having diplomatic successes and and of course the US Military and intelligence services are are running rough rough shot over our enemies that's what those leaks are for but when a leak doesn't make the government good look good or when a leak actively makes the government look bad that's when they go after the leaker the truth the truth that's right that's what makes them look bad this is the truth um so to yeah talk a little bit um
[09:30] about the prison conditions there there there was one thing that you said um in the uh interview with Amy Goodman that you know I was like really cheering when you said that about this bully Lieutenant uh guard that was there and said to you you better start acting like an inmate oh yeah I I went nose to nose with a lieutenant one night
[10:01] he had been he had been listening in on a phone call that I had made to my wife and uh I was recounting to her uh an incident that I had seen in the in the commissary earlier in the day in which a corrections officer was was berading a an inmate and he was swearing at him I mean really ferociously swearing at him and I said to my wife that I thought the co was a nimrod so apparently I really
[10:31] hurt this Lieutenant's delicate sensibilities by using the word Nimrod and uh he called me to the Lieutenant's office quite late in the evening 9:20 we're locked in ourselves at 9:00 and there's a 9:30 count and it's just uh unheard of to miscount so I went down to his office at 9:20 and um I got off on the wrong foot because I when I walked in he said to me uh are you an educated man and I said said look I don't answer rhetorical questions why don't you just
[11:02] say what you want to say and that set him off he was screaming at me he was swearing at me and finally he shouted you need to act more like an inmate and that's when I sort of lost my temper and I said and what is that supposed to mean does that mean I should get a tattoo on my face yeah does that mean I should steal food from the cafeteria and sell it around the uh the compound because if it means that I should ring my hands and say yes sir no sir thank you sir that's
[11:34] never going to happen I have a question for you John um so how do you think we can reform the prison system well one thing that I think we need to do right off the bat is make it a little tougher to get a job in an American prison the only qualifications that one need have to become a prison guard is you have to have a GED and no felony convictions and that's it I'm not exaggerating when I say that I
[12:05] encountered a half a dozen different guards who literally couldn't read which made mail call a nightmare I I got one of your I read your prison your prison letters and I remember you complaining about that yeah it got ugly a couple times um so instead of hiring these flunkies from the military who couldn't cut it in the military and who couldn't make it through the local police academy
[12:35] and then as a job of Last Resort went to the Bureau of Prisons we make we need to make those jobs attractive we need to make them we need to we need to provide salaries that make them attractive to people who actually have a choice in a in a uh career make it make it something to be proud of we also uh we need to screen uh applicants uh we need to do psychological screening because the Bop really is a Dumping Ground for people
[13:07] who probably have been bullied during the course of their lifetimes and this this has just eaten at them over the years uh over the decades even and they take it out on people who can't defend themselves people who can't even talk back because if you talk back to a prison guard you're accused of insolence and insolence gets you a one-way ticket to solitary and we know what solitary is like it's just like the Abus of family system you know it's almost like um
[13:38] there's like an epidemic of lowering the bar instead of raising the bar and expecting more from people because even even uh the police officers I I believe that they've actually I don't know about in any other um state but I I in New York I I think they've lowered the criteria even for for NYPD because they you know they want um I think they they want people like that you know they want people that that are just going to bully
[14:08] and abuse yeah because they think it's going to keep people in line let me give you one example too and I don't mean to sort of devolve into anecdotes but I think this is important I had been at Loretto for about two weeks and I was working in the uh prison library and I was just sitting there and two Pennsylvania state troopers walked in and they asked for one of the COS one of the Corrections Officers who was working there and right there in front of everybody they arrested him and they took him out and
[14:39] they they didn't cuff him until they got to the Lieutenant's office they didn't want to cuff him in front of inmates uh but it turned out that he was being arrested for domestic violence he had beaten his wife the day before and uh and the next day he was right there at his job again and I heard later that his wife had dropped the charges no and so because he hadn't been convicted of a felony he was able to uh keep his job but even in cases of domestic violence if the if the victim drops the charges
[15:10] like the the city or something can can um still arrest that person because you know right like they they they know that the victim can have uh and be intimidated I mean that that's the way that it used to be that's that's true but in this case even if he had been convicted it was only a misdemeanor so there was no recourse for anybody we were stuck with him and so there was a uh was it a
[15:44] congressman Moran who was sticking up for you yeah Congressman Jim Moran a Democrat from Virginia uh who's now former Congressman Jim Moran he retired uh last year very bravely went to the floor of the House of Representatives in November and called on the president to pardon me so I hope that in the coming year and a half or so I can build Congressional support that it would allow me to to apply for a a pardon and
[16:18] have that application taken seriously because right he he was on your side and and I mean you know obviously program sorry uh you know you know he he sounds like a completely rational person unlike um I was just going to play just a little bit a clip of the Neil the prosecutor Neil McBride I mean who like this guy sounds like you know he's a just a complete perpetuation of the
[16:50] propaganda so it's only going to take maybe a half a minute it's a welcome development that kako can serve the rest of a cent at home with his family she wrote meanwhile the federal prosecutor in the case Neil McBride has defended the government's handling of the case he spoke after kaku's sentencing in January of 2013 as the judge just said uh in court today's sentence should be a reminder to every individual who works
[17:21] for the government who comes into the possession of closely held sensitive information regarding the national uh defense or the identity of a covert agent uh that it is critical that that information uh remain secure and not spill out uh into the public domain or be shared with others who don't have authorized access to it for more so yeah I mean that guy is just completely perpetuating the the theater yeah and you notice he didn't
[17:52] say anything about uh General Petraeus who gave classified information to his lover uh or to or about Leon Panetta uh who left the CIA to become Secretary of Defense who outed the name of the Navy SEAL who killed Osama Bin Laden in a room full of people that included Hollywood producers uh or he didn't say anything about General James cartright who leaked information to the New York Times about the stuck net virus and how
[18:23] uh the US government initiated the the stuck net virus in an attack against the Iranian nuclear program he didn't say anything about those leaks he focused on just one leak one that didn't make the government look good exactly that's what they don't like the truth um can you talk a little bit about um how the media and the White House are kind of in a relationship well you know I always used to chuckle at the notion that the
[18:53] mainstream media was this corporate media uh you know tied to the Administration regardless of who was in power and I absolutely believe that 100% now uh the the mainstream media especially the major networks uh just simply do not follow uh whistleblower stories they're just not concerned about whistleblowers even n National Security whistleblowers I I find that to be odd the only the only coverage really is the
[19:26] alternative press and I've gotten to the Point myself where I watch Al jazer I watch RT I watch democracy now and otherwise I get all of my news from uh from Twitter that's the only place where I can really trust uh to get to get my news you know sites like the intercept for example fantastic website um but yeah the the corporate media really is in bed with with the white house because if they aren't if they if they don't get in bed with the White House they lose
[19:57] their access and you know we've seen this with the CIA over the years many many times where where the cia's office of public affairs will tell a journalist if you publish that you're never welcome here again we'll never talk to you again and we'll never work with you on any stories again and the White House does exactly the same thing I mean it it all just sounds so illegitimate I mean like the whole thing is just like completely illegitimate and all these people and all their positions
[20:27] of power and it it just all looks so nice and impressive or they try to make it look that way but it's just it's a big incestuous relationship is what it is right just you know yeah like like complete and utter codependency and no nobody nobody being real and and you know um holding you know I mean you know because real relationships when you really um you know care about somebody
[21:00] you know you tell it to them like it is I have a question for John yes sir um so the President says we have Americans have suffered from Terror and as a result our government went to far yet um he says we should not prosecute torturers and those who ordered it but look forward are we doomed that justice has failed and history will will repeat itself does that imply that treaties and
[21:30] international law only apply if it is convenient for propaganda oh I I think I think that's exactly right um and one thing that really disturbs me and I I said this on Democracy Now um last week is that we have not seen definitive legislation that would ban torture in perpetuity we have a policy decision in the form of an executive order that says we can't torture but that can change with the very next election that's right
[22:02] and what about the Geneva conventions and what about the Geneva Convention that's right that's right I'd like to know how it is that our government can justify ignoring uh International treaties to which we're signatories that would protect people in our custody from torture and that's all we do is ignore it yeah yeah you're right you're totally right we um we brought up uh a bit in in the previous um hour when uh Mr Benny was on you know
[22:35] exactly sort of this point about you know Obama when it comes to those that participated in the torture program you know and how he wants to look forward and you know I just don't understand why doesn't he have that attitude with um you know the the the the jails in this country that are overflowing with people that do absolutely like non crimes yeah you're you're exactly right and one thing that really bothers me too
[23:05] and I've said this in the past reasonable people can agree to disagree about whether or not right CIA officers who believed they were acting lawfully should be prosecuted I understand that right but what about those CIA officers that obviously broke the law that obviously went over and above what had been authorized by the justice department what about the CIA officers that killed Hassan ghoul in a cold cell what about the CIA officers that used that used hummus of all things to to
[23:37] recy so-called hydrate uh a prisoner uh why why aren't those CIA officers being prosecuted where's the Justice there but um that sort of uh is the point though is that uh and I kind of think of you know what what bill bny was talking about with you know the the um the like the pertinent information instead of instead of making it easier so that they can find the pertinent information they want to make the H hay
[24:08] stack bigger almost on purpose so that you it makes the pertinent information harder to find and so what you just said right there about when things are clear right instead of seeing what's clear they want to bury what's clear yeah there's always this obfuscation they always going to bury it right like they do the exact opposite of what you know rational sanity would do that's right what healthy you know like you know rational
[24:41] thinking people I mean it's right it's like they they want to obscure reality they do this is this is actually part of a wellth thought out plan and this is why we saw so many former CIA officers on on TV in the immediate aftermath of the release of the torture report just bloviating on about how it worked and it was important than it was legal because this is their legacy when their obituaries are
[25:12] written it they're going to say that that these men were instrumental in the creation and the implementation of the torture program and what they have to do to save their own legacies is to repeat this lie over and over and over again that torture worked and hope that the American people finally believe it so that's the hay stack is the lie and the repetition of the lie that's like the verbal you know um you know I'm trying to think of 1984 and George Orwell um
[25:44] mind speak what's that well and that's the way uh propaganda works and brainwashing is repetition it usually takes three statements before it sinks into the average person's uh mind but uh yeah if you repeat a lie and I forgot who was famous that that said that uh I think he was one of Hitler's propaganda ministers uh eventually the public will uh uh accept that as
[26:16] history so um yeah that that's basically like how they keep the people confused and of course if the public is not um countering that you know it's like you have to uh exercise you know your connection to reality or if someone is going to be constantly feeding you a lie then they're going to be able to sort of you know knock people off of their feet and
[26:47] and um the people are going to lose their grip basically to what is real and and what is you know lies in propaganda I I have a question for John and and that is if you could name names who would you say General Hayden uh di chinii what do you think in terms of prosecution yeah you know in terms of who ordered this and who should be
[27:19] prosecuted yeah yeah who ordered it I think this was really this was really Dick Cheney's program yeah while while President Bush signature uh is on the orders this sure but we know he didn't really know what was going on that's right that's right yeah I I would I would put it on Cheney um I guess we we should just mention uh Diane Feinstein who you you were surprised that she actually um
[27:50] was um not in favor of you know when when it came out in the details of uh how much worse that people thought that it was right Diane Feinstein really has been a cheerleader for for the CIA for many many years and she was she was known as being an unusually friendly uh chairwoman of the Senate select committee on intelligence so for her to come out uh with with the the ferociousness that she did not just
[28:23] because of what U what we learned from the report but because of the cia's behavior toward the Senate Select committee's Staff uh breaking into the computers for example uh withdrawing cable traffic for for her to come out and publicly take the agency to task that was a very big deal and and you could tell she she was really upset that just wasn't for the cameras and so um I guess a question could be uh
[28:58] I mean she's obviously you know feels free enough to speak out in challenge of that I mean she's not she has the authority to do something about it oh so I mean may may would she be just someone that that would be good to go to perhaps to get people prosecuted I mean can she do that I don't think that she ever would I I don't think that she supports prosecutions she um she certainly hasn't in the past she really is a very
[29:28] strongly pro-- CIA Senator I think she was personally offended that the CIA disrespected her by breaking into the staff's computers oh so it was more like a personal thing I think it was oh well that just lets some of the air out of my to but with that said with that said there's there's a a a senator on the ssci Senator Ron weiden a Democrat of Oregon who really is very courageous in his willingness to to stand up to the
[30:00] agency and to um truly exert oversight something that other Senators just aren't willing to to do if the Democrats win control of the Senate again it'll be Ron weiden who becomes the chairman of that committee and I think things will be different well let me let me tell you about my personal experience with the political scene I I went with the uh former head of the LA FBI gave testimony in front of 20 three Senators uh the Judiciary Committee and the Senate
[30:31] intelligence committee you know under closed doors and and uh you know all our cell phones had to be taken away and stuff and uh you know the the stuff that I study MK Ultra and uh you know some of these secret programs brainwashing and and behavior modification they had never heard of MK Ultra and we just looked at each other and I was like and you're in charge of overseeing the intelligence committees what's wrong with you people
[31:04] so I I'm just sharing one of my experiences see that's that really that really makes it clear doesn't it yeah it does it it makes it clear and then all the you know there were several Senators who were interested in what we were talking about to try to pass bills or what it might whatever it may be and uh they were voted out within four you know two years and and so by the time you develop any sort of relationship with these Senators uh they're they're switching and you can't get anything
[31:34] done so I understand why America is where it is um I just um you um John had said that no one was trained to be an interrogator that they actually were walking up and down the hallways in the CIA like trying to recruit staff to be an interrogator yeah yeah that's true there was no professional interrogator Cadre at the CIA and so and so they would just you know take whoever and
[32:06] without any training right and just send them overseas and they were on their own wow all right well I heard differently I heard there was an interrogation school that Dick Cheney set up uh way back in 2002 uh I was there in 2002 there wasn't anything like that there wasn't okay all right I'm I'm wrong uh you you also um spoke about um a Washington Post article
[32:37] in 1971 yes where they uh indicted a us more than that there was a there was a picture on the front page of the Washington Post in January of 1971 that showed an American Soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner yeah and when that photo was published the Pentagon ordered an investigation they Court marshalled the soldier uh and then they they tried him for torture and they convicted him and
[33:08] he actually went to went to prison to a military prison for torturing that prisoner and and I asked rhetorically why was torture illegal in 1971 but not illegal in 2002 right what changed nothing should have changed right they I think their overreach is so much worse today that like their their level of arrogance is spilling over today yes
[33:38] I agree um so I and you actually don't believe that Edward Snowden should ever come back to the United States I don't think that Ed Snowden would get a fair trial in the United States especially in the eastern district of Virginia which is where you know the government shops around these cases and they try to bring charges uh in the eastern district of Virginia as frequently as they can that's where I was charged that's where um Julian Assange has been uh has been
[34:09] investigated that's where Ed snowden's charges have been uh leveled and uh Jeffree Sterling was uh was tried and convicted in the eastern district of Virginia right Jeffrey Sterling um can we talk just a little bit about Stephen Kim sure uh thought that was a pretty interesting uh story just you know recently they they put this guy um in jail who who it seemed like he was clearly framed because it was the state
[34:40] department that actually introduced him to the um the [Music] media right yeah Stephen Kim is is an example of how things can go to pot it's like being like he was just trapped like he they trapped him and you can do nothing to save yourself it it's a nightmare what happened to Stephen
[35:11] Kim see I'm sorry say that again it was a nightmare what happened to Stephen Kim and he could do nothing to save himself because once they make a decision that they're gonna go after you you're going to go to prison right prop publica came out with a report a couple of years ago that said that 98.2% of all federal cases result in a conviction 98.2 now I I made a comment at the time that Saddam Hussein won 98% uh in his
[35:41] last presidential race and we said it was fixed but the justice department wins 98% of their cases and we say they're Geniuses right it seems to me that something's wrong there right uh you know it's it's it's completely rigged I mean the system is just obviously completely rigged there's no law that anybody is abiding by there's no rules that the those in charge are adhering to they they hold uh you know people to to just you know
[36:12] whatever set of rules they just feel like making up and then hold no rules to themselves and their friends I mean it's just a complete you know breakdown it is it is there there are different rules for different people and that's the sad truth about about Washington so what what is your solution joh like what do you think people have to do well I think the first thing we should do is rewrite the Espionage Act the Espionage
[36:43] Act was written in 1917 and it was targeted against German sabur during World War I it was slightly updated in 1950 after the execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg but the the law is so Antiquated that it doesn't even mention classified information the classification system hadn't yet been invented it mentions only National Defense information and it's so broad that virtually anybody with access to classified information can be charged
[37:14] with Espionage even if if the leak is accidental even if the leak resulted in in no uh uh harm to the National Security and the first thing we need to do is rewrite the ESPN act what about um the like they the fact that they're just abusing the Espionage Act oh yeah I I said in the Guardian A couple of years ago that that the administration uses the Espionage Act as an iron fist yeah
[37:45] with which they can smash people who disagree publicly with the administration's policies because it's also they they abuse the word classified also it's it's you know the term classified doesn't really mean classified it means you know covering up their criminal Behavior and the Espionage Act doesn't really mean the Espionage Act it's it's all just whatever again like whatever they want it to mean yeah it has nothing to do with Espionage anymore and I'll tell you another thing about classification um
[38:15] there are billions of classified documents that are created each year uh and what PE what most people don't know is that over classification is a crime there's actually law that prohibits the over classification of information uh in the intelligence Community but the law is utterly ignored and certainly no one has ever been prosecuted for over classifying anything we only have two minutes left but you know again what you just said goes back to making the hay
[38:47] stack bigger so that you can't find the pertinent information like they they're constantly trying to bury the truth that's absolutely true it it becomes a quagmire um so John kyaku you don't have a website I mean people can follow you on Twitter though right uh I do have a website um it's it's being revamped but uh but you can check it out at www.de joh.com and I'm also on Twitter
[39:18] at John kiraku and you're on Facebook and I'm on Facebook why not Dr Robert Duncan did you want um say we have a minute oh yeah well I just wanted to thank John for his uh work that he's done to bring torture forward and and uh I know he's paid a very heavy price for what he's done but it's for the good of the United States and it's for the good of the human
[39:48] people and uh so I I just want to thank you again for doing what you've done for us thank you very much that's very kind of you so that does it for this Tuesday February 24th uh organic news here on awake radio uh please friend me on Facebook even though I know I think Facebook is something like we should all get off of because NSA is just spying on all of us um my YouTube channel is
[40:20] April Waters with two teas uh donations are greatly appreciated to support Independent Media so thank you and I hope to meet you guys both in person someday look forward to that thanks thank you have a great night thank you good night [Music]
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