[00:00] [Music] it's the real news on their nature in a landmark case the architect of the CIA's torture program have reached a settlement with its victim the psychologists James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen have agreed to undisclosed terms with two victims in the families of a third it's the first time top officials in the CIA torture program are being held at least somewhat to account
[00:32] joining me is someone who has helped make this happen John Kerry ah who is a former CIA analyst who exposed the torture book and is the only official jail in connection with it John welcome thanks for having me I should say you were the only official who was jailed with it because you're out of jail now and we're very happy to speak to you because you have a real connection with this case your response to the seller I know the ACLU is very happy and I know
[01:04] that that one of the victims said he was very happy and that he felt that justice was served but I actually am disappointed in this settlement for a number of reasons first of all the decision is sealed so we really don't know if justice has been served we don't know what the terms of the agreement are we don't know if there is any kind of deterrent that has been written been written into to the decision so the fact that it's not public it seems to me at least in part defeats the purpose of the
[01:38] second Mitchell and Jessen the two the two CIA contractors psychologists who were the the defendants in this case were indemnified by the CIA in 2001 so even though they were sued the CIA paid for their attorneys the CIA is paying for the settlement the CIA is paying for everything and when I say the CIA pegboard I mean that you and I are paying for it the American taxpayers are paying for it so there's no actual hurt to Mitchell and Jessen and third you
[02:12] know this had it gone to trial would have exposed CIA documents related to the torture program that we otherwise will never have access to and we're going to lose that now so whatever didn't come out with the Senate torture report and could have come out with this case will not come out and we'll just never know what the truth is behind this case you know a few things let me start with who Mitchell and Jessen are you talk about US
[02:43] taxpayers paying their legal fees well it wasn't just that right because before that to the diners program Mitchell and Jessen received millions of dollars to get create the program he talked about what they did and the techniques that they came up with that these victims were subjected to yeah Mitchell and Jessen were psychologists in the Department of the Air Force and they reverse engineered the Air Force's sere training program to to use offensively against terrorism suspects and so this
[03:17] became the torture program this became the the ten techniques that were used that the Bush White House euphemistically called enhanced interrogation techniques now in addition to being paid of the standard you know one thousand fifty dollars a day that almost every CIA contractors pay Mitchell and Jessen over the course of several years were paid an additional 81 million dollars to come up with this program and to then implement it now what makes it even worse than just
[03:48] coming up with the program is that they went overseas to the secret prisons and they were the ones who actually carried out the torture there will be no punishment for them for doing that right and let's talk about these victims Suleiman Salim Mohammed Ahmed been sued and the family of full rocman rockman is is now deceased let's talk about what they went through I know that at least a few of them Saleem and Sood I'm not
[04:20] familiar with Rothman's case they were held for years and ultimately world to pose no threat at all as it the case with so many of these victims of us rendition and torture and imprison that's right the two surviving victims of the CIA's torture program were tortured mercilessly and at least because they had nothing to do with terrorism they were scooped up in the so-called fog of war they were sent to Guantanamo before that they were sent to secret prisons and they were they were
[04:50] tortured it turns out they were the wrong guys gule Rahman is a particularly sad case gule Rahman was subjected to a torture technique called the cold cell in which he was changed to an eyebolt in the ceiling like this he was stripped naked he was his cell was chilled to 50 degrees Fahrenheit and then every hour a CIA officer would enter the cell and throw a bucket of ice water on him Gold Rodman was killed with that technique he didn't make it through the
[05:21] night and died of hypothermia no one has ever been brought to justice for murdering goal rahman and certainly the Justice Department never gave CIA officers permission to to murder detainees during the course of their interrogations well Gul Rahman's torture and death were overseen by Mitchell and Jessen and again there's no justice for bull Rockland right so certainly Mitchell and Jessen had a real reason to not want this case to go to trial let me ask you those two
[05:53] Falls of something you said before in terms of documents that would have come out in a court case not being able to know is there not a second lawsuit that the ACLU also filed against Mitchell and Jessen and if that's still ongoing could that not possibly shed the light that is being foreclosed here yeah there's a second case pending filed by the ACLU on behalf of I believe I was the data now I was a beta is is far more controversial because he was sort of Mitchell and Jessen guinea pig for this whole program
[06:23] I'm sort of tied to Abu Zubaydah for life I was responsible for his capture when the CIA believed that I was a beta with the number three in al-qaeda he was never the number three in al-qaeda and in fact he had never even joined al-qaeda but the intelligence was faulty well he was tortured so lessly and he was the first one to undergo this torture he has never faced any kind of justice he's never met his accusers in a court of law he's never faced a jury of his peers and he's never even been charged with a crime so not only not only was he tortured but
[06:55] he's been held indefinitely and had literally no hope of release so I hope that his case will eventually bring some of these properties to life they're too light rather now the problem with our Savannah is that because he's so controversial and because he was the focus of the Senate torture report I think the chances are very good that the CIA will invoke a national security defense and ask the judge to dismiss this case with prejudice before any testimony is heard John just to flesh out your connection
[07:27] with him that you mentioned if I recall right you put him on the plane that took him to where he was held and fortunately yeah that's right I literally picked him up along with three FBI agents he was on a gurney we lifted him up and maneuvered him into a secret CIA jet and strapped him to the luggage rack at the back he asked me to hold his hand he was crying it was very upset and I and I told him a number of times I'm the nicest guy you're going to encounter in this
[07:58] experience if I can give you any advice it's that you have to cooperate and he said you seem like a nice man but you're the enemy and I'll never cooperate and I wished him luck and I never saw him again so finally John I know you mentioned that you're disappointed in this settlement because it means that work that these two are not going to be held accountable in court but I'm wondering if you as someone who exposed this program if you can at least feel any
[08:30] comfort that two of its victims and the family of the third who died as you explained to us are going to experience some modicum of justice you know it I would expect that the settlement is is many millions of dollars I don't think that that Salim would have even said that justice had been served without a provision of millions of dollars so in and of itself is a great thing another great thing is with this Agreement the CIA has effectively
[09:02] admitted that it had a torture program not an enhanced interrogation technique program not an interrogation program but a torture program so at least we have that and I hope that the organization can learn from its past mistakes its past atrocities and not ever carry anything out like this again okay you know what a quick follow-up something I meant to ask you the CIA in some ways did cooperate with the plaintiffs here right and if that's a fair characterization does that signal
[09:33] perhaps that the CIA is businessing itself from Mitchell and Jessen and would be open to some form of future accountability I think that's right and and it's it's odd and it's almost inexplicable but when the CIA announced at the at the very end of the Obama administration that it would not seek to to have the case thrown out I thought well we'll see if it lasts what the next president with the next president here we are with Donald Trump Donald Trump's CIA did not seek to have the case thrown
[10:04] out so I think that this was something that the CIA decided to do at the top most levels just to put it behind them laughter but we'll have to leave it there John Kiriakou the CIA analysts who exposed the CIA torture program went to jail for it John thank you thanks for having me and thank you for joining us on the room