[00:00] [Music] hi John can you hear us Hi how are you I'm great how are you great thanks for having me never a problem always welcome sorry it's under these circumstances me too me too so um you know you have a very unique perspective on the current situ with Julian Assange and the
[00:31] possibility the possibilities that he faces should he be expelled from the embassy I just want to kind of open the floor to you and just ask for your sentiments or thoughts on the latest developments and what could come next I'm actually not as pessimistic as I was 24 hours ago um 24 hours ago I thought well this is this is what we've been fearing all along it's finally going to come to pass and now we have to come up with a strategy but the more I thought about it today and I thought
[01:02] about it all day today I thought this is actually the perfect time for us to make that argument that Julian is a journalist Julian is a publisher uh Julian is not the kind of person that the Espionage Act was written for he's not a spy he's a working journalist doing his job uh my co-host on myo radio show Brian Becker said
[01:33] today let's look at the New York Times The Washington Post CNN Fox M MSNBC they're often wrong and sometimes they're very wrong Wikileaks has literally never been wrong that's journalism you don't see Wikileaks having to issue Corrections or apologies or retractions because they're never wrong that's just simply journalism so if the US government has made up its mind that it wants to extradite Julian
[02:05] and charge him with these very serious felonies and I I still hold out some hope that that's not the case maybe we need to start thinking about issues like jury nullification where we can influence a jury especially a jury in a very highly educated area like Washington DC so that regardless of what the law says regardless of how the law is written regardless of what the
[02:35] prosecutors are going to tell a jury that jury will go into its Jury Room and will conclude that the law is just simply wrong and so it doesn't matter what the law says you know I say all the time that when I was at the CIA the culture was such that we were always taught that everything is a shade of gray and in many cases that's just simply not true some things are black
[03:06] and white they're right and wrong this is just wrong and I think that there are enough people out there who are going to agree that this is wrong this is political it's a vendetta uh the deck has already been stacked and uh and they're just not going to stand for it so I feel a lot better about this today than I did yesterday I maybe I'm crazy maybe I'm
[03:38] naive but I still actually feel like I can put my faith in the in the jury system provided that the jury is able to get the information necessary to make a just decision now that is a huge caveat that I think is it cannot be um overstated um the accurate information that they would have to receive and on previous visuals you've mentioned that uh the fact that if Assange is extradited to the US and if he's prosecuted uh prosecuted he will
[04:09] very likely not have any access to the information and evidence used against him even his lawyers would have very little access to that and that's an issue that I wanted you to comment on further this evening because I've seen so many supporters of Julian sandre Wikileaks who tell me oh bring him to the us so that he can have a fair trial and get the evidence out into the public Arena and I always respond with your quote about that so please explain to the audience again what would be the reality if you were to arrive in the US in a national security case especially in the eastern district of Virginia
[04:40] which is where Julian apparently would be tried uh there is no such thing as a fair trial we have a law here in the United States called uh sipa the classified information protection act and what that means in Practical terms is that if you've been charged with a national security crime where you are accused of having exposed most classified information what the government calls National Defense information you are just simply not permitted to to offer that information up in your own defense in
[05:11] court there's a process by which the prosecutors can do it they can declassify it solely for the purpose of Prosecuting you and that's what they did in my case they said we have Declassified this information solely for the purpose of Prosecuting Mr kiraku they would do that with but they wouldn't declassify enough information for him to actually defend himself they would declassify only that information necessary to prosecute him and so when the justice department
[05:42] invokes CPA the classified information protection act what they do is they literally clear the courtroom of everybody but the prosecutors the defense attorneys and the defendant the judge the clerk and the court reporter that's it the courtroom is empty and then they bring in a technical team to come and sweep for bugs and at that point Julian's attorneys would make a motion or as in
[06:13] my case 70 motions to declassify the documents necessary for Julian to mount a defense in my case we had blocked off two days for these hearings two full days we walked into the courtroom uh sippa was invoked the courtroom was cleared and they they literally they physically locked the door and then the judge said I'm going to save everybody a lot of time and I am going to deny all 70 of these motions she said you just
[06:44] simply do not need this information to defend yourself and then that was it and so as we were walking out of the courtroom I said to my lead attorney what just happened in there and he said we just lost the case that's what happened he said we have no defense and it was true I said now what do we do he said now we talk about a plea and so my point is that that's not Justice not at all that's Washington area Justice that's
[07:17] National Security Justice you know there's an old Richard prior joke that you go to court you're looking for justice and that's what you find just us right and that's what I fear is going to happen with uh with Julian Julian's going to end up in the eastern district of Virginia looking for justice and the only the only thing that's there is just us outside with our signs demanding that he get a fair trial that'll never come and that's why I think we need to fall back again on this issue of jury nullification and jury nullification
[07:47] would not be possible could not be successful unless our voices are heard right right look at it this way a jury consultant actually quite a famous jury consultant he was the jury consultant for the OJ Simpson case and for the uh the Trayvon Martin case and and William Kennedy Smith he was my jury consultant and he told me if you were in
[08:18] any other District in America I'd say let's go for it we're going to win this thing but the eastern district of Virginia your jury is going to me be made up of people who are members of or who have relatives who are members of the CIA the FBI the defense department the Department of Homeland Security and intelligence Community contractors you don't have a chance is what he told me
[08:49] well in my case he was right in Julian's case I think that's wrong because Julius is famous enough or inFAMOUS enough depending on what side of the issue you fall on that He commands attention in the media we can use that ability to attract attention to turn the debate so that our voices are heard saying over and over and over again that Julian is a journalist and that Wikileaks is a journalistic organization all we need is one juror to
[09:23] agree with us one and then it ends how do you how would you advise our audience and you know participants in this vigil to bring that type of possibility about should s should a AR be extradited to the US you know what can we do to make those our voices heard on that a lot of things I think for those of us who have the ability to um to get published we need to write like we've never written before agree more on that yeah yeah and
[09:57] not just for you know for those Outlets that we're so comfortable with where we all just sit around agreeing with each other uh you know reader supported news Consortium news truth dig truth out we need to get out there into the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post and the New York Times and the Washington times we need to form alliances with conservatives because you know the the the ideological spectrum is not a straight line it's a circle and there's a point where the right and the left meet and that is where civil liberties are involved
[10:29] and so we need to form a strategic alliance with those on the right who love civil liberties those Li Libertarians who understand that the constitution was written to protect people like Julian Assange and organizations like Wikileaks so we need to write and those of us who don't write or can't write or get published or whatever need to be not just in the streets but in front of that Courthouse you know that as soon as Julian arrives in the United States
[11:00] every news Outlet in America is going to be in front of that courthouse and they're going to be broadcasting all day every day we need to get in front of those cameras look you know juries are going to be warned not to read articles about the case not to watch TV about the case this is going to be such a high-profile case that that's going to be impossible and so absolutely they are they are going to hear what we have to say we just have to keep up the pressure and let me let me backtrack a little bit
[11:32] too you know it it's not over till the fat lady has sung and so we need to exert as much pressure as we possibly can on the Ecuadorian government uh they cannot be allowed to get away with this this nonsense forgive me I haven't watched the last uh the last six hours but this this nonsense that that they may try to argue that they've somehow negotiated the notion that Julian wouldn't face a death penalty charge this isn't a death
[12:02] penalty charge in any case Under the Sun the only way this would be a death penalty charge would have been if the United States was in a state of declared war which we haven't been since December 8th 1941 and Julian were caught uh providing Aid and comfort to the enemy so don't treat us like we're stupid and that we somehow think this is a death penalty case this isn't a death penalty case what this is is this is a case of the ecuadorians being sellouts this is a case of the ecuadorians wanting American
[12:34] money and more favorable trade uh uh negotiations or debt Rel debt relief right whatever it is visas who knows uh this is about lenan Moreno being a a two-faced Trader I hate to say it this is a guy that we put our trust in which was very foolish uh and so we have to stand up to the Ecuador and uh and make sure that they understand that this is this is not acceptable currying favor with the Trump
[13:08] Administration or even the Obama Administration before it it's just not going to go it's not going to fly absolutely and I do want to remind our audience that your refer of your reference to the fact that you know at the beginning of of uh his administration and and when he was running for for office Wikileaks supporters were were fully behind Maro because he was viewed as the successor to Korea who would protect Assange so just in case some viewers weren't aware of that yeah that's exactly right and I think that that has been one
[13:39] of the elements of this whole scenario that has been so shocking and and you know you say it's a great you know sentiment that you know we're not stupid that that the death penalty issue is is you know is a lack but you know the same can be said absolutely about all of the allegations that Lennon bro has made against jul Assange and this thisa paper Scandal it's ridiculous had to laugh out loud today when I read this this article in CNBC where Moreno made the the requisite accusations about about the leak of the papers and which was just
[14:10] simply factually not true right this came from a legislator in the Ecuadorian uh uh Parliament but then he complained that Julian somehow uh photographed his food and his daughter's dancing and the interior of his bedroom and it's like buddy you're confusing Julian with the CIA the CIA is bugging your bedroom and taking pictures of your kids and your food not Julian Assange he doesn't even have internet access like he's he's the one person in
[14:41] the world who couldn't hack anybody right now right yeah right and Moreno is the one that knows that more than anyone of course it's all a lie it's all a lie and it's all to twist public opinion well we can do that too we can fight back too absolutely and I think it's great a great point that people who maybe are not published or who don't write uh you know use their bodies to show up you know use your bodies and if you're not in the Washington area by God go on Facebook
[15:13] and Instagram and Twitter you have friends you have relatives you have followers make sure that they know your position on Wikileaks and Julian Assange and try to convince them of of the justice of this cause you know this is one of those I I really don't believe that I'm overstating this this is one of those once in a generation events like like sacko and venetti or the rosenbergs where we really do need to pull together and point out an injustice and fight to
[15:45] correct it I couldn't agree more I actually had a very similar conversation before this vigil began saying exactly the same thing this is one of those moments where we you choose what side of History you're on and a decade a generation from now people will be looking back at this I think similarly to the way that they've looked at you know Susie Dawson's example of the Nelson Mandela uh support and movement the Civil Rights Movement things like that where there is this really clear demarcation between right and wrong yes and this is on the side of right and as you say people should be convincing
[16:15] their friends and family of that for sure I I think that's it right there so uh what c i from your perspective as somebody who was you know a CIA analyst can you describe to us maybe uh you know some of the the from your perspective the way in which this these allegations from Moreno have been AAR and or just the way that that the the kind of psychological warfare that has been waged against the public uh when it comes to Assange which is why we don't see the equivalent of the yellow vest protests which have gone on for 20
[16:46] weeks with thousands and thousands of people participating we don't see that at the Ecuadorian Embassy so you know if you could comment on on that psychological warfare that has achieved that uh that would be I think fantastic to hear sure you know I think that operationally it's better for the CIA the longer Julian remains in the embassy the CIA doesn't care about prosecutions the CIA cares about sending a message the message is we have kept this man in
[17:17] what is in effect solitary confinement for the last six and a half years and there's nothing he can do about it the FBI sure they care about about prosecutions because that's how they get promoted for the CIA it's about making an example of people in my own case the the point wasn't to see how many years in prison I could get the point was to frighten anybody else who was even considering blowing the whistle
[17:49] on waste fraud abuse or illegality it's the same thing with Julian you know Julian did something that worked he created something that actually worked um he created something that actually protected its sources and that actually exposed war crimes and crimes against humanity and so they had to make sure that that ended so what do you do when you're confronted with someone that you need to
[18:20] make an example of who has taken up residence uh in a in an embassy belonging to a country that's actually a weak country then you start using some muscle and that muscle in this case is economic you know it's like it's like Lenin Moreno thinks that nobody reads nobody Among Us reads the Wall Street Journal that we didn't see the article about how he practically got on his knees and he begged the Trump White House for an
[18:51] increase in both uh uh us aid aid and uh uh better tariffs so that they could export more Goods to the United States I read the Wall Street Journal I saw that article um this guy's supposed to be a communist he's supposed to be a a a you know Liberator and and uh and somebody who values human rights and civil rights and civil liberties and he's not it's all about the money so it's hard sorry it's hard
[19:25] to it's hard to confront the US government when it's not acting in a case like this as a monolithic organization the CIA has its own uh interests the FBI and the justice department have its own interests and to tell you the truth I think the White House and even the Department of State being led by Mike Pompeo have their own interests uh and so we have to fight them individually along with fighting the ecuadorians yeah you know also remember
[19:55] there are there are a lot of us uh from all around the world I mean how many people watch these visuals it's thousands and thousands of people every time I do one of these I'm flabbergasted by the number of people around the world who actually sit and watch these and comment on them well that tells me we have a lot of soldiers on our side as well and so if they believe that it's time to squeeze this pimple we can be there squeezing
[20:26] back absolutely and I think uh to your point about the fact that they're not just seeking a prosecution but they're trying to make an example of people like Julina Sange of yourself of Chelsea Manning I think that that is is really the principal reason that you don't see a flood of of people following you following Chelsea Manning in the same sense or in an analgous sense to the way that you see maybe a flood of of women coming forward in the after in the Weinstein Scandal when one woman comes forward and says this happened to me and
[20:58] the other woman women that know about that and also experienced it flood forward I think what you're describing is exactly why we don't see that and a New York Times Reporter told me that on the day of my arrest every National Security Source that the New York Times had went completely silent that's exactly what they wanted to happen no question I just think the impact of that can't be overstated and I think that that point needs to be needs
[21:29] to be made to people that there are other people like yourself that are within these agencies that have a conscience but that have been scared and and terrorized into Silence by these examples especially when the uh the oversight system doesn't work you know I use Tom Drake as an example all the time I'm gonna do it again Tom Drake did everything perfectly by the book he did everything the way we're all taught to do if you witness evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality or threats to the
[22:01] public health or Public Safety you go to your immediate supervisor if you don't get satisfaction there you go to your supervisor's supervisor and then to the Inspector General and then the general counsel in the case of NSA being a Department of Defense Agency you then go to the Department of Defense uh Inspector General If You Get No Satisfaction there you go to either the house or the Senate uh oversight Committee in that case the intelligence committee that's EX exactly what Tom Drake did and he was charged with nine
[22:32] felonies including seven counts of Espionage when he never ever provided classified information to any journalist but it doesn't matter because even though even though the charges against Tom were all dropped the government declared Victory because they ruined him and they made an example of him so it silenced anybody else at NSA who was thinking of going forward Ed Snowden said that without Tom Drake there would have been no Ed Snowden
[23:04] that's the exception rather than the rule no question at all I think that the um especially and now not only with Ed Snowden and his you know um being stranded in Russia I I can't imagine the people that are inside these agencies that would want to come forward and what they would consider you know in in um you know weighing that measuring that choice and basically giving up their entire lives for that moral decision but um so yeah so what can the public
[23:36] audience do to support people who or support um not only the whistleblowers who have come forward and who have been prosecuted and persecuted as a result but also the potential for others to come forward well one of the things is to participate in events like this uh this has such a broad reach that you know it's a events like this that make wouldbe whistleblowers know that they aren't alone that there's a community that supports them and would
[24:07] automatically uh come to their aid so that helps a lot and like I said a few minutes ago be active on social media pushing this narrative uh there's something that's actually a little more practical too uh and that is we need to start thinking about raising some money uh for Julian's defense there are some lawyers in Washington there are a half a dozen that come to mind just off the top of my head who are legal
[24:37] Titans in this city and they are the best attorneys money could buy uh there are a couple in particular who are great if you're guilty and you want to negotiate the best deal there are a couple who are great if you're innocent and you want to go to jury and you want to win this thing so we need to think about getting Julian the best legal team that money could possibly buy this is not a case where you need one or two attorneys to
[25:09] go up there and read their speeches and you know object and do whatever it is attorneys do we need a team of a dozen of the best legal Minds in Washington and I think we're rapidly approaching that absolutely and I've just been um busily grabbing the uh link to the defense fund of jul Assange and the page where people can donate and I've just thrown that in into chat just on that note because yeah I think that you know there there are a number of different ways that you can uh donate to WikiLeaks
[25:39] and you know you can go to wikileaks.org you can buy from their shop but of there are there is this separate site uh justice for Assange tocom where that you can donate specifically uh to assange's Legal defense which as you point out is critical at this time I'm gonna go on the site right now as we speak okay yep there it is if you want we could go there and I can share a screen just to show people what it looks like yep I'm on wikileaks.org the other one tell me the other one again it's Justice for the
[26:11] number for Assange a legitimate website one second good okay so here we see this page this is the justice for ass.com website the
[26:42] homepage is over here but this is specifically the Donate page so this is It's really as simple as that you just click to donate uh the the website in general though has a lot especially for independent journalists has a lot of information that is incredibly useful and that you never see an establishment press um it's so I would urge people to not only donate but to explore this website and use it as am use the information in in sites like this as ammunition in the fight to correct the record when it comes to a Sange because
[27:12] you know it's a wealth of information that is just waiting to be used so but I will end the share screen but I just wanted to show people that so they know that this isn't some sort of scam yep excellent that's what we need yeah I think that that that point can't be made enough I think that we definitely don't we don't emphasize donating um too much because obviously a lot of people out there in the public are struggling you know financially and all of that but I think that we can't just leave that by the wayside either we have to encourage people to make that
[27:44] concrete tangible donation um you know and people do ask like what can I do I feel powerless um I want to support them but I don't know how and if you don't if you feel unable to express your voice then that is one way uh donating is definitely a way to financially kind of raise your voice and you know looking at the uh at the Wikileaks shop too there's a whole lot of cool stuff on there go ahead and spend 10 or 20 or $30 it's all for a great
[28:15] cause absolutely I I I think that uh some of the the sentiments of uh people like Caitlyn Johnstone and yourself I feel like we need to somehow crowdsource uh you know making that into um you know stamped like a sentiments that are on things like mugs shirts etc etc and raise money that way but that was literally an off the cuff IDE had earlier today but um but yeah I think that yeah go ahead at the at the CIA we used to sell coffee mugs that that
[28:46] were on the coffee mugs they said admit nothing deny everything make counter accusations and it was kind of a joke but it was kind of not a joke and they were by far the most popular coffee mugs in the whole place everybody had them on their desks we could do the same thing here and use that money to buy the best lawyers in Washington for Julian there would be nothing better than to have that actually work and to do that I think uh I think it's really interesting that whole concept of plausible
[29:17] deniability just summed up in a mug that people are actually buying that's hysterical well I'm glad that you and and our last guest Margaret Kimber both um in in a positive mood I think that that that that's the absolute best state that we can be in right now uh as we watch things unfold and as we really do hope not just based on like Blind Faith but as we really hope that the attention we are collectively bringing to this issue will make a difference and protect Assange from being expelled from the embassy and hopefully would make a
[29:49] difference in in any prosecution that might happen down the road I was heartened this morning and Joe laori and I discussed this actually I was heartened when I saw the Ecuadorian government um back off a little bit saying that no no decision had been made the information's not correct I think a decision had been made I think the outcry was so great that they were taken aback by it and uh and so they had to put the breakes on things and to me that's that's exactly
[30:20] what we need to be doing it worked yeah and thank you for raising that point because I think that there is a danger after a immediate response like this vigil and you know the Press congregating outside the embassy and all of that you know some people whether they're trolls or Earnest whatever they will accuse Wikileaks and the rest of us of engaging in like a a boy who cried wolf scenario but I think you've just answered that in that you know really it's not that at all it's the fact that this response has prevented the plan
[30:51] that had been in place from from happening I think so I think so and I think that if it's only this continued response that will continue to prevent it from happening so what you know this vigil will end on Monday or late late on Sunday what should we all be trying to do in the the days after the vigil ends and to make sure that the eyes remain on the embassy and we don't just allow this to happen like next weekend instead of this weekend for example yeah um you know I think that
[31:22] that this notion of taking to the streets we need to begin it now and not let up we need to at least here in the Washington area we need to be picking the Ecuadorian Embassy uh downtown here and we need to be writing and giving interviews and talking and we can't let people forget about Julian's predicament we can't we can't let people forget that that his freedom is hanging by a thread
[31:53] here and it's going to be decided by who knows people behind closed doors in the you know the dark Halls of the intelligence Community or the federal law enforcement Community we just have to keep shouting and pushing and and making sure that this stays in the news finally there was some mainstream press coverage you know it's a shame that it had to be bad news that brought the mainstream media out but maybe we can still capitalize on that absolutely and I think that another
[32:25] example of that success is is the fact that Chelsea Manning although she is still imprisoned and very unfairly imprisoned she has been uh you know taken out of solitary confinement and I think without the efforts of her support te support team and the Legion of supporters who um raised their voices in her defense I don't think that that would have happened I think you're you're absolutely right yes so I think that that and I think it's something that you know we discussed with margar earlier that is an example of the fact that the the you know the voice is
[32:57] raised in support aren't just blowing Into The Wind that that it does make a difference but um you know do you have any other um you know issues that you think need to be discussed for example the fact that uh just the fact that so few journalists in establishment press and I know that this is an issue that's been talked to death to some extent but so many journalists are not standing up for Assange they're engaging this propaganda war against him against their own interests is there anything that will make them wake up to the reality of this situation I'm not sure to tell you
[33:29] the truth and I think I think that that's because of the the Takeover of the American Media by uh corporate interests you know almost no Outlets have a budget for example for investigative journalism anymore you have to turn to the likes of of propublica or well I hate to even say it but the intercept uh and Wikileaks for real investigative journalism so I think think that uh that by and
[33:59] large mainstream uh journalists either don't have the wherewithal or the fire in the belly necessary to cover these important issues I think that they're told what to cover and they're largely content doing that the C yeah no well actually the CN I remember recently uh in the result in the wake of the Mueller uh report you know fur or uh I believe it was an editor from CNN said we're not
[34:31] investigators we we're reporters and that that it was admitting that exact point so ridiculous absolutely so but uh yeah oh go ahead if you're gonna say something I was gonna say that's why it's always such Blockbuster news when they come up with something that's mildly interesting because now investigative journalism is so rare that that that journalism in and of itself is news that's the sad State we're in it's extremely sad and it's
[35:02] been monopolized and controlled uh for for by so so few people you know you've got pets like the Washington Post owned by Jeff Bezos contract with the CIA etc etc you know it's it's mind-numbing the degree to which the media is not the media it is just mouthpieces of power so but well I know that uh the initially when Julina sand was silenced last year just over a year ago by Ecuador um you
[35:33] delivered a number of petitions to the Ecuadorian Embassy I believe in DC um yes do you have any are there any plan if you're willing to share it are there any plans to do similar uh a similar act uh in result uh in the result of the pre uh recent news from Ecuador or uh we haven't discuss when I say we I mean those of us from veteran intelligence Professionals for sanity haven't discussed it in the last two days but yeah the time is ripe we need to do it now like this weekend immediately and I'm happy to take the lead on that uh
[36:04] that's what we did last year we wrote a letter to the Ecuadorian uh president uh through the Ecuadorian Embassy here in Washington we had something like three or four dozen signatures of uh retired intelligence professionals from CIA NSA FBI Homeland Security and the uniformed military and Military Intelligence servic uh so we like to think you know we're a group of people who know what we're talking about we were received very
[36:35] warmly in the in the Ecuadorian Embassy here in Washington uh I like to think that the letter had some some impact I'm not sure but at the very least it didn't hurt and as you said yeah now is the time to to do it again with even more support and more signatures well I I wish you all luck in in delivering that and writing that because I think it is it is important it's another way of raising our Collective voices and you know speaking of VIPs and Veteran intelligence
[37:05] Professionals for sanity um I remember uh when Gina haspel was nominated CIA director by Trum uh by Trump you and other VIPs members wrote very vociferously against that nomination and I bring that up because I want to ask you to explain to our audience you know not I don't I'm not asking you to go on a rant against Trump like a political like statement but I just want to ask you to explain to the people that really do support Wikileaks and Assange but who think that Trump will bring him to the
[37:36] US and pardon him or you know free him or have a fair trial can you please explain to them how the nomination of people like Gina haspel Elliot Abrams John Bolton Etc show a different picture than they seem to think exists that point I think is probably the most important but I I will tell you this I actually have some access to the White House right now um also yeah I yeah I I do it's quite expensive access
[38:09] but it's access nonetheless enough of that uh with my point being one of the the most important things I've learned in this whole process of trying to gain access to the president is that the president really is malleable the thing is is and this is just his personality he needs to hear something from three different people if he hears from Elizabeth Voss that juli nange ought to be pardoned he's not
[38:40] going to pay five seconds of attention to you if he hears it from you and from me he's still not going to pay any attention but if he hears it from the two of us and somebody that he plays golf with at maral laggo on the weekends he might actually do something and so you remember as as well as I do when he said during the campaign and I quote God bless Wikileaks right who knows maybe maybe he's willing to be um uh convinced uh
[39:11] now you raised something that I think is critically important uh and that is the list of what I believe to be very very dangerous neoconservatives appointed to some of the most important national security positions in government uh he was clearly influenced by other neocons in those in those uh nominations and so if he can be influenced one way I believe actually that he can be influenced in another way as well it's just a question of getting to him now we
[39:42] can't pick up the phone and call Donald Trump but we can continue to write and to shout and to try to influence people who do have access to Donald Trump you know there are a lot of Republicans out there who support Wikileaks and who support Julian if not for uh his his position on civil liberties then because they view him as an opponent of Hillary Clinton's I don't care why people support Julian so long as they support him I don't care what
[40:13] their what their basis is just so long as the outcome is is right so maybe we actually do have a chance here that is the most optimistic and and positive um take on that that I could possibly imagine I think you know my uh thoughts going into that that question were you know very kind of pessimistic negative right yeah exactly like there's no hope that that that Trump would change his mind on this this issue but I think you it is a really great point
[40:43] that he obviously is malleable since he has flip-flopped on Wikileaks thus far at least once he has he's flip-flopped on Wikileaks and I I think that's a good thing you know um an aid to Trump um mentioned me to him about six months ago and um he paid no attention whatsoever but then ran Paul mentioned him to me mentioned me to him about two weeks later and he said you know Joe Smith mentioned this guy to me
[41:14] a couple of weeks ago so now that's two people so I know that this is true what I've been told that he needs to hear something from three different people three different people he respects and he's willing to change his mind that is the most optimistic thing I've heard all day and I think that that's really that should should motivate the Republican and Trump supporting audience to get out there and raise their voices exactly right yeah the only problem I see the only problem
[41:44] I see is that there H there is a quadrant of those people that have been pacified by things like hon and other other uh thought patterns where they believe that they don't have to do anything that Trump is in control and he'll save the day right that has to be kind of addressed in order to get them fired up to try to change his mind yes because that's just simply not true um and that that weakens us if people believe things like Konan yeah that weakens us but we need to get to the likes of Mike Lee Republican senator
[42:16] from Utah or Rand Paul a republican from from Kentucky or Mark Meadows who's the chairman of the the house tea party caucus we need to get we need to get close to Republicans who believe that this is a civil liberties issue and not a criminal one they're the ones who can really influence uh the president much much more effectively than we can yeah no doubt whatsoever um yeah so
[42:46] again I think that that's a really positive sentiment I'm really glad that you raised it and I hope that people that are watching that have been you know maybe pissed off at myself and others who have been critical of trump on this stream I hope that they will be fired up to go out and do exactly that to raise their voices from that conservative perspective but that is one of the strengths of the unity4j vigils is that we do openly welcome support from from all all parts of the political spectrum and let me say one more thing about that too Elizabeth uh I was very pessimistic for a long time and then
[43:18] Jeff sessions left and so I think that we've got a better chance now because William bar is a functionary he's a a bureaucrat and a paper pusher he's not an idealogue like Jeff session was and so maybe perhaps the guy might be willing to be convinced we have to at least give it a try completely agree completely agree uh
[43:51] So based on that more um optimistic view of of the president of the possibility that he would change his mind uh what do you see like can you just give maybe maybe a kind of speculative forecast of what you see happening in the future now that we have now that Wikileaks has exposed Ecuador's plans now that at least right now they have an expelled Assange from the embassy what do you see happening going forward that's one of the toughest questions you've ever asked me honestly I think it's so
[44:24] fluid that anything could happen and and we ought to we ought to treat that as an opportunity you know we ought to we ought to be talking for example publicly about the notion that Julian could return to Australia or perhaps Julian could go to Iceland or to Moscow or to somebody mentioned Geneva the other day uh so I I think that it's it's really not over until it's over I I think that
[44:56] there are ideas that ought to be debated publicly I think that Americans need to be convinced that um that this ought not to be a criminal issue uh we need people to listen to the argument that Dan ellberg has so eloquently made for the for the last several years that the Espionage Act is unconstitutionally Broad and ought to be challenged uh which it has not been and so uh I I'll repeat myself I I think we
[45:28] may have a we may have a a path to uh to Justice here that is an interesting point I I can see what you're saying I really I understand that in the sense that we're looking at a at a field right now that is more open than it's ever been in multiple different ways whether it's as you say the fact that uh Jeff sessions is no longer the Attorney General the fact that we you know there's this instability in the government of lenon Moreno and there is a pessimistic outlook on that if you you know if you consider the fact that lenon Moreno could be replaced by somebody farther to
[45:59] the right and more of a Lackey to the US than Moreno already is yes but it's still as you say it's still an opportunity that everything is so fluid right now in lots of different uh layers of of the kind of context of all this I think it is and Joe Lau is making a point right now that that Rudy Giuliani is apparently already making that argument that this is a press issue not a criminal issue and I I think that's exactly right I can't believe I'm agreeing with Rudy Jani exctly exactly
[46:30] right this is a press issue listen I'm gonna I'm going to sound like a broken record again please let let's talk for just a a couple of minutes about the Espionage Act it's the it's the Espionage Act of 197 this was an ACT written to combat German sabots during the first world war okay it is so old and so outdated that that it doesn't even mention the words classified information it uses the term National
[47:03] Defense information because when it was written and updated the classification system didn't even exist yet the classification system was invented in the mid1 1950s so that shows you how old this thing is it is so broadly written that in my view it's unconstitutional it's so broadly written that someone like Barack Obama can charge eight whistleblowers with Espionage for speaking to the media well that wasn't the intent of the
[47:36] Espionage Act the Espionage Act was meant to punish people who were spying for foreign countries well I think Julian's even more innocent of Espionage than I was and all of my Espionage charges were dropped because clearly I hadn't committed Espionage clearly Julian hasn't committed espion this is indeed a press and media issue that's the narrative that we need to just keep hitting over and over and over again this is not about Espionage it's
[48:07] about press Freedom absolutely and I think if if you know in the pessimistic um you know possibility of uh of Assange being not only expelled extradited and prosecuted but you know convicted you know that would be and I think that's why it seems like such an epic moment because that would really present the prosecution and the the conviction of the Free Press because juliean and I I that's what I'm asking you to comment on is that Julian Assange is not just one person who was a
[48:38] publisher a journalist who is unfairly accused of Espionage and all these different things he is as you said earlier the most accurate publisher of Our Generation if not ever so he represents so much more than just himself and Wikileaks and and if you can please expand on that that would be fantastic oh yeah oh where do we even start with something like you know I think the most important point is that if Julian were
[49:09] to be prosecuted successfully that would open the door for the justice department to prosecute literally any journalist who printed uh classified information in an article it would expose any news Outlet uh including its Publishers to espionage charges for publishing any information that the government considered to be National Defense or or classified it would it would be the end
[49:41] of a free press in the United States and I really believe I'm not overstating that that's how important this case is as I said a half an hour ago this is one of those once in a generation cases that that our children are to be reading about it history books and that's why we have to get it right absolutely and it's not just in the country ac across the globe National Security and international Affairs journalists that are in those areas would fear being prosecuted by the
[50:13] United States because Assange is not an American citizen and they would know from that precedent that the First Amendment would not extend to them in the eyes of the US I mean that's right and in addition to that in addition to that you think the British government is isn't watching this you think the French aren't watching to see how this plays out or the Israelis or even maybe the Chinese everybody's going to see or are looking they're looking to see if the justice department can get away with successfully Prosecuting a journalist on an Espionage charge because I would bet
[50:44] a paycheck if if this prosecution is successful they're going to turn around and do exactly the same thing and in that sense it would be almost you know the death of the pretense of the West's ideals of liberalism and you all of that that we've grown up with those myths that we have in childhood that the West believes in that that would be the absolute um implosion of that idea that's it everything would change and the prosecution of yourself and others has shown that the reality is not what we're told as far as
[51:17] Justice in the US and all of that but I think that what we would see is the death of the pretense of those ideals I guess um that's right you know there was a that uh that received just about no media coverage here in the US three years ago uh there was a woman who was a journalist for the Washington times and she was married to an official at the Department of Education one morning at 6:00 AM uh armed federal agents broke down the door of their house and seized
[51:49] not just their computer but also files now this was an armed SWAT team of the Department of Education so most Americans don't have any idea that the Department of Education has an armed SWAT team that will bust your door down at six o'clock in the morning they actually do as does the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Labor and other governmental organizations the the dirty little secret about federal law enforcement so not only did they take this uh this couple's computer saying that the
[52:19] husband had um uh governmental proprietary information on the computer they took his wife's notes she's a working journalist for the for the Washington Times They took her notes and they wouldn't give them back and so there was no criminal prosecution at the end of the day and then she had to sue the government civil to recover her notes a working journalist now for whatever reason no other journalist paid any attention in
[52:50] this case and now here we are where a journalist is being prosecuted and and a journalistic entity is being prosecuted well there's already kind of a a precedent for seizing a journalist's protected notes and the names of sources so we have ourselves I mean not us on this on this telecast but as Americans we have ourselves to blame for not putting our foot down when when these rights began to be Whitted away and say
[53:22] no we have constitutional protections we didn't do that and now we find ourselves in this predicament yeah I think for myself and maybe others you know growing up you assume that those things just can't happen and so when you don't hear about them you assume that they're not happening but yeah when something like that happens and it's so unconstitutional to such a huge degree but they doesn't get press coverage you know that really does go a long way to continuing that false sense of I guess security and safety um you know when I was a kid I just goe always assumed that
[53:54] um that adults always knew what was best right they're adults they they have educations and they have experience and and they know right from wrong and so they know what's best and then you know by the time I was an adult I was working on Capitol Hill and I remember walking with a colleague through the tunnel connecting the Senate Russell office building to uh the capol building and Mitch McConnell was walking toward us and my colleague leaned over and he said do you want to punch him or should I and uh you know I that's kind
[54:25] of an attitude that I've adopted here in Washington I've lived in Washington for 37 years minus two for prison but uh but that's that's that's my view now is that we adults oftentimes don't know what's best we don't know right from wrong we act rationally not logically we we act uh for short-term gain rather than what's in the best interests of the country and uh and that's got to stop now of course it won't stop because it's human nature so it's up to People Like
[54:55] Us to ensure that it uh that it does as little damage as possible this is one of those unique opportunities that we can actually do good yeah and exactly and I think at we at the very least we can shine a light on that rash um you know action and that the um you know inconsistent behavior that we see happening um we have a few minutes left is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience or just address in general that we haven't uh discussed yet you know I'm going to
[55:26] say say I I've been very fortunate to have spoken with Julian a couple of times over the phone but I've never met the man in person uh that doesn't matter to me one wit I am going to be out there in the street I'm G to be writing about this I'm going to go to the courthouse if I have to take vacation time I'm gonna go to the courthouse and to be there and I encourage literally everybody who is who is watching us tonight to do the same thing we have to stand together you know without without that unity and that solidarity we have
[55:59] nothing I I I completely agree yeah Joey just asked uh asked John who punched who punched Mitch McConnell so he doesn't know how close he came Joe but yeah no I think I think that's an absolutely inspiring message though and I think that that I mean I I myself will have to travel to if expulsion and arrest happens I'll travel to DC and cover it myself and I would hope that everyone else in the United States and maybe internationally would join us in
[56:30] doing that and and protesting I mean we know that there is enough anger amongst the populists at at this overall corrupt plutocratic system whether they come at it from a right-wing perspective or leftwing perspective the public is angry and in France for the yellow of us we're seeing that persistent energy come to that issue and we're seeing that uh as you said you know in Venezuela we're seeing the same thing we have have to make that happen for julan Assange and Wikileaks it's just not going to be
[57:00] successful we do you know this this comparison that you make to the yellow vest I think is very appropriate uh I heard somebody just recently described the yellow vest movement as a leftist movement it's not at all leftist um some of them are leftists some of them are rtists they're all Angry that's the important thing and that that's us it doesn't matter if you're approaching this from the right or the left if you're angry enough that that you believe that Julian's son should not be prosecuted then meet us at the
[57:34] courthouse absolutely I couldn't agree more and that's that is I exactly the reason that I chose that comparison because it is the exact same uh visceral anger and bipartisanship that that is motivating the yellow vest that needs to motivate this movement for sure that's right that's right we'll do it thank you thank you John for joining us once again it's always an honor and a pleasure to speak with you go ahead pleasure is mine happy to do it thank you and I'm sure we will see you again and hopefully it will
[58:05] continue to be in positive optimistic circumstances right I look forward to that thanks for having [Music]