[00:00] you can't treat people as subhuman over the course of decades or generations and expect them to be cowed Martin Luther King once said never underestimate a man's desire to be free and uh I think one thing that the Israelis have always done as they've underestimated the Palestinian desire to be free in the shadowy corridors of American intelligence few names provoked and still provoke as much heated debate as John kiraku once a CIA
[00:32] counterterrorism officer who was deeply entrenched in the world of covert operations across the globe John crossed the Rubicon when he publicly denounced the agency's use of torture this bold move thrust him into the spotlight earning him both lorded praise as a whistleblower and vment condemnation as a Trader in my conversation with John we are not just peeling back the layers of a man's conscious we d having head first into the murky Waters of ethical
[01:02] ambiguity National Security and the high stakes of America's loss of moral accountability if you watch the following interview be prepared to question your assumptions and to confront the uncomfortable truth lurking behind the whale of America's war on terror but before we do a quick call to action some of the best interviews on this channel are shadowband which means YouTube is is not presenting them to you the fewer the latest example is my
[01:34] interview with James Bamford where we discussed the truly amazing story that underlies Benjamin Nan's corruption Scandal did you know that a Hollywood billionaire not only stole nuclear secrets from America but then sold them to Israel and that netan helped him to stay out of troubles to this very day and then netan turned around and started to ask for favors hence the private charges in Israel against him other examples are the interviews with the
[02:05] so-called Hammer lawyer Stanley Gohan or the interview with the former Chief of Staff of Colin Powell who told me that the white powder in the test tube that Colin power showed the world when he testified at the UN just before the war on Iraq was actually so so if you're interested in content that apparently you're not supposed to see cont content that goes against the mainstream narrative have a look at some of the previous interviews that we have
[02:35] recorded for your pleasure and of course it really helps to spread the news if you like And subscribe to this channel John kako what a pleasure having you how's it going in where are you it's it's I'm in uh Arlington Virginia just a couple kilometers from the White House doing well thanks for having me wow a couple of kilometers from the from the White House what how fitting how fitting I could I could walk
[03:06] there yes John um I have you on my radar for quite a while so I'm very happy that this uh this conversation come to be I have a couple of notes in front of me and basically I do not know where to start it's just amazing yeah I also saw a couple of a couple I saw basically any interviews that I could get my hands on uh where you have spoken now uh what I would like to focus on is the Middle East in general and Israel Palestine in in particular knowing that you have
[03:38] expertise on not only that area but on that area and many and many other areas but before we do and I know it's a tricky one John yeah I've heard you speaking about yourself before but in a nutshell for viewers who do not know you how would you how can you yeah that's a tricky one yeah how can you describe yourself in a nutshell yeah with all that happened with all that you did and how you came to be where you are today well easy one huh to start with yeah easy one I spent almost 15 years at
[04:09] the CIA working on the Middle East mostly on Iraq and um and uh I spent two and a half years as the senior investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee after that uh working for John KY also mostly on the Middle East but I guess I'm probably better known for uh for exposing the cia's torture program I blew the whistle on the torture program in 2007 paid with it for my freedom in
[04:43] 2013 and um since 2015 I've been a journalist an author columnist commentator out there speaking yeah you really you virtually risk it all because there was no way of predicting how that would end for you it could have been 10 or 20 of whatever years you were lucky in that sense that it was only what was it 30 months or so they gave you right right 30 months and I served 23 yeah but if you seen on
[05:13] other whistleblowers that's not always the case yeah so I'm I'm very fortunate to yeah I'm sorry to interrupt you but in fact um I got the shortest sentence of any of the National Security whistleblowers and I attended the sentencing hearings of people like Jeffrey Sterling and uh Daniel hail and and my name came up in sentencing where the judge actually said I'll give you kiraku plus 12 months or kiraku plus 30
[05:47] months it was um it was awful but I'll tell you I had very very good attorneys um and I had a little bit of of gy mail uh in my background we can talk about that and so the justice department was very angry that um that my attorneys were able to negotiate a short sentence and so they sought to take out their frustrations and anger on future National Security
[06:17] whistleblowers and if you briefly again briefly discuss your your history in the in the CIA yeah what are the key yeah sure I started in January of 19 1990 uh as an analyst on Iraq uh I served overseas in Saudi Arabia Kuwait uh and uh two years in Bahrain and then went back to CIA headquarters again working on Iraq I got bored with that after seven years and so
[06:48] I made a very unusual uh change to counterterrorism operations I speak both Greek and Arabic so I went to Greece as the uh counter terorism representative and then after September 11th I went to Pakistan as the uh cia's chief of counterterrorism operations uh went back to headquarters after leading the capture of Abu zubeda who we believed at the time was the number three we believed incorrectly was
[07:18] the number three in al-Qaeda and then I on the strength of that capture I was named the executive assistant to the cia's deputy director for operations and finished my career at the United Nations yeah I wanted to flush this out to highlight that you were not just a minor anal analyst in the CIA you had a serious career there right I did I did I was very fortunate now meanwhile and I have a list in front of you it may not
[07:50] be comprehensive yeah but you're also a prolific writer you have written about your experience in the number of books 1 2 3 4 5 6 so The Reluctant spy right then doing the time like a doing time like a spy I like the title yeah yeah the convenient terrorist yeah CIA lies CIA whistleblower the CIA insights Guide to the Iran crisis yeah that's a very interesting one honorable cause so 5 six7 books right so and and you translate your experience from the time in in those books yeah now do when we
[08:23] talk when we talk about the your career there was of course and you mention his name already yeah so again in a nutshell because this is not where I want to focus on yeah but in a nutshell what happened what did you do and what were achievements and very important what you said at the time it was believed he was number three so explain that's the key at the time yeah in the spring of 2002 the CIA believed that Abu zubeda was the number three in al-Qaeda and that he had been
[08:53] instrumental in the planning for the 911 attacks none of that was true he had had never pledged falty to AMA Bin Laden he had never been the number three in al-Qaeda and indeed he had never even joined alqaeda he was a bad guy he worked with Al-Qaeda as as a facilitator let's say he founded al-qaeda's uh training camps in kahar and and Helman province in southern Afghanistan he founded al-qaeda's safe
[09:24] house called the house of Martyrs in Pasha Pakistan he could get you false passport reports and money and clean phones and he could get you into Afghanistan or out of Afghanistan but he was never the number three we spared no expense financially or by way of Manpower in finding him it took us six weeks and we found him and we captured him now the reason that's important is because of this belief that he was the number three in al-Qaeda he was the
[09:56] first so-called high value Target hvt that we had captured and the first one to undergo merciless torture at the hands of CIA officers and contractors yeah and I think uh Iraq was of course a crucial moment in US history yeah so the things that that are in my memory are the interviews with M mlin Albright for example where she said that she found it Justified that we the West
[10:26] starved 500,000 Iraqi children to death yeah and then ha let me ask you a question yeah I'm sure you know this iconic image from Colin power testifying at the Yan with this little glass tube and this white powder do you know what was in the white what was in the glass tube yeah there was there was nothing it it was a prop it was a prop I remember those debates very very clearly so imagine you have all of the um all of
[10:58] the effect analysts from the entire intelligence community so we're talking about CIA the defense intelligence agency Dia the department of energy everybody who has a stake in trying to figure out if Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and the consensus was that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction the consensus was they did at one time and I can explain that in a moment but there was no evidence they that they
[11:30] did at that time but there was a political decision that had been made at the White House to invade Iraq and to overthrow Saddam Hussein and so the the Bush Administration was looking for analysis to support the policy which is exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to do you're supposed to take the analysis to create the policy right you have to base the policy on the truth they did the opposite so in the end uh when George Tennant the CIA director
[12:02] told President Bush that it was a slam dunk his words that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction then the decision was made to to invade Iraq there was no there was no intelligence analysis to support the conclusion at all none and so what you're talking about that famous image of of um Colin Powell sitting at the uh at the table the United Nations Security Council table with John negranti behind one shoulder and George
[12:33] Tennant behind the other shoulder that was meant to imply that the US government was 100% certain that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and the entire policy was based on a lie and I know that I know that it was sold because I had Colin Po's Chief of Staff Colonel Larry Larry Wickerson on and he told me it was sold I I was lucky I was sitting on the chair otherwise I almost fell off yeah it was all fake it
[13:03] was all fake incredible if you if you if you regard the consequences yeah there were a Million Dead Plus in the in the intering between those first and second golf War this 500,000 staff I mean it's just unbelievable yeah but you said then it then the decision was being made but was it not so that prior years before already America had planned to basically um um produce a regime change or invade seven countries well well I I can I can give you some background on that when I came
[13:33] back from uh from Pakistan on the strength of the appos of beta capture I mentioned a minute ago I was promoted to the position of executive assistant to the cia's deputy director for operations I went in on my very first day and I was very excited right I'm going to be working on the executive floor of the CIA the director is there the deputy directors it's it's the the the the brain of the CIA I was so excited and I went into the
[14:05] office and I said so what do we do and the deputy director said to me I can't tell you anything until you go to security and sign your secrecy agreements so I had to go to the office of security and they had prepared six separate secrecy agreements for me to sign now these were classified contracts saying that I would never reveal what it
[14:36] was that I was working on or what I learned in that position unless the CIA decided to declassify the information so I went into the office of security and I said um I said what's up they said you have to sign these so I signed each one of the six and when I finished I said okay so what's up and the security officer said well and he took a breath he said next
[15:06] year we're going to invade Iraq we're going to overthrow Saddam Hussein and we're going to open the world's largest Air Force Base in southern Iraq so that we can move all of our air assets out of Saudi Arabia to deprive Osama Bin Laden of the ability to say that we are polluting the land of the two holy mosques I was so taken aback by
[15:37] this I stammered out but we haven't found Bin Laden yet thinking foolishly that that should be our top priority six months after 911 and the security director said um look the decision's been made and he said the battle lines have been drawn he said that state department Joint Chiefs of Staff and CIA were
[16:07] opposed to The Invasion but the supporters of the invasion were the office of the vice president the office of the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Council and there was nothing we could do to stop it later on about nine months later the day before we crossed the border into Iraq I was the notetaker in a meeting a uh it's called a secure video teleconference a cits uh that was
[16:41] chaired by vice president Cheney and it included George Tennant the CIA director I was George's um notetaker it included uh Secretary of State Powell uh National Security adviser condalisa rice and um a number of other very very senior officials including the the four-star general who was the commander of us Central Command so the vice president Begins the
[17:12] meeting and says general will you give us a briefing on the status of forces to tell you the truth I've always been bored by status of forces briefings I don't understand them they're boring I don't care he's saying elements of the first division are here and elements of the 15th Cavalry unit are there and these ones are moving here and these ones are moving there it means nothing to me so he's giving this briefing and then the last thing he
[17:42] says is if all go as planned we can be in Teran by August and very discreetly George tenant leans forward and turns off his microphone and he turns to yeah I was sitting right behind his shoulder and he turns to me and he says did he say Tran or did he say Baghdad and I said he said teron and George said have these people
[18:13] lost their minds and then he turned the microphone back on so when the meeting was over I went back to my office and the deputy director said how is the meeting and I said did you know we were going to invade Iran and he said uh are they still talking about that he said we're not going to invade Iran the problem is none of these people have any understanding of the Middle East and none of them know anything about Middle Eastern history we're not going to invade Iran it's a pipe
[18:43] dream and then the next day we cross the border into Iraq with a prediction from the senior director at the National Security Council that Iraqis would throw flowers at our troops when we cross the border and then the rest of course is history yeah so I mean the reasoning is interesting yeah so we we already established that the Americans or we the West you know stared 500,000 children to death and then in the second you know
[19:14] the second time around they still expect you know to be thrown with flowers yeah incident I'm sorry interrupt there was so much internal propaganda not just at the CIA but in the United States that Saddam Hussein was so evil he was the embodiment of evil that regardless of what the United States had done to that country over the previous decade we would be welcomed as liberators and that just was not that just was not true that
[19:45] was not the reality I had just prior to talking to you I saw an interview with General Wesley Clark on Democracy Now where he also uh recounts how was how he was informed about those seven countries to be invaded and how puzzled he was and then he asked his he makes sure it's an unnamed Source he can't say the name of the person who he was talking to yeah but he asked the person who told him that uh why and there were not nobody was able to give him the answer no you
[20:16] know there's a famous story about um uh Richard Pearl Richard Pearl is a famous maybe Infamous neoconservative he has been a lifelong democ rat but he's he was a a a major adviser to the George W bush white house and there's a famous story that on September 12th 2001 he went to see the vice president and he said you know we have to invade Iraq right right and was the first one to sort of
[20:49] put that that seed into the mind of Dick Cheney there was never any evidence that Saddam Hussein had any anything to do with 911 and on the contrary AMA Bin Laden hated Saddam Hussein as much as he hated us there was nothing Muslim about Saddam Hussein but this was something that the neoconservatives had planned for many many years the other way around was also true you know Saddam husse hated or feared or
[21:21] however you call it and he killed them but he found them yeah that's right so it's it's it's a mutual distaste here that's right yeah it would be very tempting to go into 911 but let's not do that yeah we said we talk about we talk about Israel so in the context of that conversation yeah I would be very interested to and this is a brutal switch now yeah I know yeah but if you talk about about Israel and let's start with October the 7th but before we do yeah the first I don't know
[21:53] one or two months you know every interviewer who he he his or her first question was to the interviewee do you condemn Hamas yeah already framing the whole story yeah but from your perspective with your experience in the Middle East yeah so what's your let's CH let's start generally yeah what's your view on October the 7 what happened and why well certainly October 7th did not actually begin on October 7th it began
[22:25] in you know 1948 so just sort of as an analytic overview you can't treat people as subhuman you can't treat people as subhuman over the course of decades or generations and expect them to be cowed Martin Luther King once said never underestimate a man's desire to be free and uh I think one thing that the
[22:55] Israelis have always done is they've underestimated the Palestinian desire to be free for so many decades we've seen we've seen settlers just confiscating Palestinian land burning Palestinian Olive Orchards uh taking Palestinian homes beating in many cases killing Palestinians incarcerating them uh to no end with no reason and you get to a point where you can't take it anymore and so
[23:28] is Hamas a terrorist organization I think probably an argument could be made that it's a it's a freedom fighting organization it's an organization dedicated to the liberation of its people um what pushed us over the edge finally was the election of the hardest right-wing government in the history of Israel I mean things have been bad for a long time but when you
[23:59] take people who have con been convicted of Acts of terrorism convicted of anti-arab or anti-muslim hate crimes and you put them in charge of security over their victims well what do you expect is going to happen do you think is going to happen now I in many cases I I blame the United States for this because if you go
[24:32] back to if you go back and look at presidential statements or statements made by secretaries of State between say 1948 and the early to mid 1980s you will find far more balance than what we see today there's no balance today if you're elected to congress if you achieve a a ranking position at the state department or even at the defense department or certain at the National Security Council you are expected to fall into line and be 100%
[25:05] pro-israel you see the same thing happen on Capitol Hill yes or you're out you know I remember when I first became the the senior investigator at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee virtually the first call I had was from APAC the American Israel political Affairs committee and they said hey you don't know us but we're APAC and congratulations on your new job we would like to offer you a free trip to Israel all expenses paid and we want to give you a tour and show you the place and I
[25:36] said not in a million years thank you very much and I declined actually everybody declined so you know just over the last couple of decades we've we've gotten to this point where any criticism of Israel and or even worse any criticism of Benjamin Netanyahu as a leader or as a person is deemed to be anti-semitic I can't tell you how many Jewish friends or former Jewish
[26:07] colleagues I have who have been accused of anti-Semitism it's like are you stupid they're Jewish they just don't agree with the policy that you agree with this is something we really have to very convenient it's very convenient and it's worse with with BDS legislation you know many of us many many many of us support BDS uh boycott sanctions and investment or we support the the the idea behind BDS but now
[26:39] something like 40 States or 42 states in the US have anti-bds laws so if I am invited to give a speech for example this happened to a dear friend of mine if I'm invited to give a speech at a university and the university accepts state funding which they almost all do I have to sign a document pledging my support for for Israel wow I'm not Israeli I don't support Israel so why in
[27:13] the world should my ability to make a living depend on my sworn statement that I support Israel I won't do it so this is in the court system now being appealed saying this is unconstitutional I will not pledge f y to a foreign government I won't do it but this is how bad things have gotten in the United States where you cannot debate the Arab Israeli issue without being branded an anti-semite it's
[27:44] outrageous so the influence of Israel in America I mean if you start talking about this you're right away conspir conspiracy theorist right the but the in there is a very tangible and very massive influence of the well Israel Lobby ape you you already named it right in the US and in the US you have like 80 no chsky told me you have about 80 million Christian fundamentalists yeah which are actually on the side of Israel without which no American president will be elected so you know they need the of
[28:16] this massive please yes I I I apologize again no no no you it's your show you in in 2008 after I blew the whistle on the torture program I got a call from Liberty University if if your viewers don't know what Liberty University is it is the largest Evangelical Christian University in the world it is intensely conservative hard core right-wing conservative bible-based
[28:49] University and they asked me if I would teach a course in intelligence studies and I said why in the world would you call me you and I was the same yeah I said you and I probably disagree on 99% of the issues we probably disagree about what the weather is going to be like tomorrow and without missing a beat he said because torture is not Christian and I said okay you know what I'll take it and I ended up teaching
[29:20] like six courses there over the course of years I made some friends not many I think that they have crazy political ideas but they're nice enough people this idea of Evangelical support for Israel is something that I've never understood until one of them explained it to me the bottom line is they don't care about Israel they really genuinely don't care what they care about is the reference in the Bible saying that Jesus
[29:51] Christ will come back when all of the Jews are returned to Israel and and so they believe that if they support the Israeli government and the Israeli government's effort to U encourage Alia or the return of Jews then Jesus will come the end of the world will be upon us we all go to heaven except the bad people that will be left behind and that's going to be the end of it so this is this very odd
[30:24] philosophy that they can force future biblical events through contemporary political means it sounds insane to me but they genuinely believe it and you're right if if you are if you're a republican a national candidate for for office and happen to be a republican you need those evangelicals to get elected and so you're going to pledge allegiance to Iran I'm to Israel rather
[30:56] sorry and on the other hand if you're a Democrat and most American Jews happen to be Democrats you're going to do exactly the same thing because it's the Israelis represent democracy and freedom it's the only democracy in the Middle East people are fond of saying incorrectly I might add and um and so you know with the millions and millions maybe billions of dollars that American uh Jews pour into US
[31:30] elections you know if you want to win election or reelection you're going to tow the line yeah so there is a Israeli influence right or in in America and there's Israeli infiltration and this is a moment this is a moment this is something I would like to discuss with you and have a very specific example it's not I mean I have like four pages in preparation of of this interview but it's not on my on my list here but Israel's nuclear program shrouded in
[32:03] mystery up until now still not still not officially recognized all kinds of things yeah but and I I stumbled across this when I started to research the the three corruption charges against Netanyahu one of them is particularly interested interesting because it involves Aaron milhan does this name ring well no it sure doesn't Okay I I come to a question at the end of this year so Aon milham is one of the most successful or the most successful Hollywood producers ever this guy
[32:34] produced Pretty Woman 10 years of slave a Fight Club whatever yeah he is a Israeli super spy yeah he was working for Lam yeah um one of his operations got got blown so the FBI knew since 20 years that this gentleman this billionaire and arms stealer by the way I forget I forgot to mention is an is an Israeli spy and the best part of it and this is where where netan comes in again netan was involved so milhan got a
[33:06] problem in America milhan had an interview in Israel a Hebrew and thinking nobody in the US understands Hebrew he thought he can talk yeah as a result of this interview his 10year Visa normal people don't get a 10-year Visa but this gentleman got a 10-e Visa got revoked he then went to Netanyahu said B help me Netanyahu went to Chon KY three times it's documented three times to rein at the Visa which eventually happened yeah and since then netan is asking for favors but my point of this whole story
[33:36] is we know for fact from uh FBI documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act that both Milan and netan were personally involved in stealing smuggling nuclear secrets out of the US this is documented so coming back to the infiltration of of Israel in America is there no form I mean this is known to to to the FBI and it must have been known or is known to the CIA so why is America not defending at
[34:09] least itself yeah against this infiltration that's what I mean this are this are huge American geostrategic interests even yeah and they just let it go so we know that from Carter Reagan and some other administrations that were aware and just kept it actually covered it up and this only one one example um what's uncom affair right same thing but 200 200 kilos of yellow cake dis disappeared how can this happen does
[34:40] America not even protect itself I'm going to answer your question with two short anecdotes on my very first day at the CIA uh I was in the CIA Auditorium with all of the other new hires there were a few hundred of us and we were given a series of briefings by the cia's uh most senior officials the director the deputy director the head of security the head of personnel people like that the head
[35:10] of Counter Intelligence and the head of security told us um that day that one of the things that we had to be very conscious of was Counter Intelligence that there were countries out there that meant to do us harm for example there's a restaurant that's very near CIA headquarters it's a popular steakhouse and we were forbidden from eating there because the KGB assumed that we all ate there and so at any given time the restaurant is full of KGB
[35:41] officers well he said as another example the Israeli government has two declared Intelligence Officers in the United States declared means they came to us and they said these are representatives of the intelligence services this is the name this is where they live this is what they're working on one shinb bet and one mad he said there
[36:11] are9 Undeclared Israeli Intelligence Officers active in the United States according to the FBI spread all around the country and they're here to steal our defense Secrets now why don't we do something about that because the Israelis have been so successful at cultivating blind support on Capitol Hill we don't dare do anything about it that's why Jonathan Pard was such an
[36:44] such an unusual case you know in 1985 the so-called year of the Spy Jonathan Pard was caught red-handed working for the mad and he was sentenced to 30 years and he did the entire 30 years and every time a new president came into office in the United States the Israelis would beg us to let him go and let him return to Israel well it got so bad that at one
[37:14] point um Bill Clinton was going to let him go and George tenant went to see Bill Clinton and said that if you let Jonathan Pard go I'll resign everybody in a leadership position at the CIA resign and the entire leadership of the intelligence Community will resign and so he he didn't do it but this gives you an example of the grasp that the Israelis have on us I'll give you another idea another anecdote rather a dear friend of mine and his wife served in Israel CIA officers and they were
[37:45] declared to the Israeli uh government so they're not doing anything the husband was studying Arabic the uh the wife was working with the Israelis so they um they go to the ambassador's Christmas party they arrived at the 1st of September and that December they go to the ambassador's Christmas party and when they came home all of their living room furniture had been rearranged while they were at the party
[38:15] okay now that's a message the message is we can do whatever we want whenever we want and there's nothing you can do to stop us okay a few months pass they go to another dinner party they come home and people had defecated in all of the toilets in their house they had taken a [ __ ] in all of the toilets in the house and didn't flush that's another insulting message
[38:46] that there's nothing you can do nothing we're watching you we can come in your home any time we want the third time it happened they were just getting ready to leave uh to come back back to the United States and the Ambassador had a going away party for them when they got home from that party the dog was whimpering it was crying somebody had cut the dog's tail off and wrapped it in gauze that's the relationship that we
[39:18] have with the Israelis it's very one-sided but the political reality in the United States is there's really nothing you can do about it there is a not to underestimate a danger here I mean the Israelis bombed the Iranian Embassy in Syria hoping to I mean this that's I don't know how many attempt to finally draw the us into an attack to uh to Iran yeah yes but it's
[39:49] so blatant and also so transparent not even an an mentally incapacitated president of the US fell for it yeah but it's the attempt that counts right it's the attempt that counts that's right they tried repeatedly to draw the Israeli to draw the Iranians into a war and uh and the Iranians have shown great restraint through this whole process they just haven't taken the bait yeah what was the story actually um Iran
[40:21] retaliated MH but very controlled they they even informed the Americans you know they just they did what what's the story here what's the story they did they they sent hundreds of drones hundreds of drones but the drones were slow it took six hours between when they were launched until they entered Israeli airspace they informed the Americans in advance um they informed the jordanians that these drones would be overflying Jordanian territory and then the Israelis shot
[40:53] down all but like seven there were hundreds of them and there were like seven that got through so on the one hand you show your public we've retaliated on the other hand there's no damage really and you bested the the Israelis by not being drawn into a fight but then on the third hand this was really an Iranian Victory because the Iron Dome is supposed to be Flawless and
[41:26] it's not there were seven drones that you can buy at a hobby shop or on amazon.com that got through the vaed Iron Dome that that was a that was an incredible intelligence collection lesson for the uh for the Iranians yeah and it took it took the American you said it already the Americans were involved I think uh the Saudis were involved Jordan of course so it took multiple countries to
[41:57] make sure that no bigger damage yeah it's so Israel is not as as as Invincible as it wants to present itself no it's not yeah if you go back to October 7 so out of pure interest curiosity how as far as you can tell I mean you're out of the agency for for for quite a while yeah but how does this or how did the CIA F October the 7 as far as you can tell I mean I'm asking for sorry I'm asking I'm asking for one specific thing so what what struck what struck me
[42:28] immediately is the delayed response so I have different numbers yeah but there were between 20 and 29 on 20 to 29 different spots places the the fence was breached yeah and in some instances it took almost two days for the military to arrive in a country that is so small that that the airplane or even Apache helicopter is in minutes there yeah and then they shoot their own Pap but that's a different story yeah but the delayed response what's your view on the way I heard it um there were
[43:01] multiple organizations warning uh netanyahu's office and the ministry of defense that an attack was going to come from Gaza Egypt warned Israel twice Egypt twice for bar yes twice you're exactly right twice because listen everybody's listening to the same Communications right you've got the Egyptians the Americans the Saudis the jordanians the Israelis everybody's listening to the same cell phones and
[43:31] walkie-talkies and however people are communicating but inmar Ben gavier the minister of National Security one of these criminals these convicted hate crime felons that's now in a in a position of uh of import in Israel thought he was smarter than everybody else and said no there will be an attack but it's going to come from the West Bank and it was idar Ben gavier that insisted that um that the that the
[44:05] necessary response uh teams were transferred to the West Bank specifically outside of nablo and then of course the attack came on 29 Points up along the uh all along the border between Israel and Gaza it's a complete and total failure not an intelligence failure the intelligence was there but a a policy failure yeah and you know another thing the the Israeli settlers along the line with Gaza the
[44:35] Israeli settlers over the years have been given Communications uh equipment and they're also listening to these these communications Palestinian Communications and they were reporting back to the central government something's happening the Palestinians are experimenting with gliders and balloons somebody needs to get down here and and fix this and nothing happened so again what do you make of
[45:05] the delayed response what's your interpretation I I really believe the Israelis were uh asleep at the switch they they this was a failure plus you know I I don't mean to get too dark but I think the Israelis were also looking for a reason to strike back with 1,000 times more power than what the Palestinians used against them on October 7th I I really believe that the Israelis expected that nobody would
[45:37] raise an eyebrow with 40 or 50 or according to the Lance at 186,000 deaths yeah there was a I have a document it's not mine yeah I can link it I will link it in the in the description of this interview there there is a leak document from from a from a formal um Israeli function I don't know what it was Ministry of something yeah not not of Defense yeah three days after after October 7th where
[46:07] they already had ready plans to R all of Gaza of all of Palestinians and the re they even described in which countries to put them yeah and the reasoning was that a a let's say expulsion of the Palestinians would be less damaging to Israel's Global image than to kill them yeah I mean that that blunt and this was three days again it's a leaked document yeah I will I will link the I will link it in the description from an official
[46:38] Israeli I have to see Ministry of whatever yeah so these plans they were already made yeah and for for netan of course for him personally October the 7 was a God sent gift given the demonstrations that you know otherwise he might be in prison today if there had not been in October 7th he might be in prison on corruption charges the longer he can drag this war out the longer he can remain as prime minister he's he's arguably the most unpopular single
[47:11] politician in all of Israel but he's also the longest serving politician in the history of Israel or the longest serving prime minister and he knows what trouble he's in so the longer he can drag this out the longer he remains free given that it's more and more likely to say prudent that Trump will be the next president in the US yeah if that happens how will that affect the
[47:43] situation in Gaza yeah as far as you can tell I'm very very deeply worried about this um there has never been a more blindly pro-israel president than Donald Trump blindly kneejerk uh pro-israel it was Trump that moved the American Embassy for example from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem it was Trump that closed the Palestinian office in Washington and expelled all the Palestinian um diplomats um excuse me it was Trump who
[48:18] said during the 2016 campaign that that he could solve the Arab Israeli conflict in a day well he did that by screwing the Palestinians right I mean if that's your solution just to give the Israelis literally everything they want and to screw the Palestinians okay then then there is no problem um I I fear that it would be much much worse if Donald Trump is elected again now listen a week ago I would have said A week ago I actually did say Donald Trump was going to be
[48:50] president again but now Joe Biden's out of the race KLA Harris maybe is not not as as unpopular as we thought she was she's going to make a vice presidential pick that may give her a bump so I'm optimistic that we actually have a race on our hands now um but I think Donald Trump is a a dangerous madman yeah really um looking at the at the names that are being floated for um for vice president almost all of these names help
[49:24] the Democrats excuse me we're talking about the without getting too far down into the weeds kamla Harris to win the presidency needs to win all of the solidly Democratic states that Joe Biden won that's easy but she needs to win Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin there are swing states there are seven swing states there are those three Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin
[49:55] North Carolina Nevada Arizona and Georgia if she can just win Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin she would win 272 to 268 in the Electoral College and she'll beat him so she's considering the governor of Pennsylvania the governor of Michigan the governor of North Carolina she's considering um a Bonafide American Hero
[50:26] in in Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona which is another one of the Swing States so I think I think we really do have a race now and another one other thing if I could point it out is before he was shot after he was shot for the last six months Donald Trump has been absolutely stuck at 46% so nothing that has happened has bumped him over 46% Joe Biden was at
[50:58] 39% kamla Harris is now at 45% she'll get a bump in the polls once she picks a vice president which will be in the next two or three weeks so I I think she can win it it's going to be tough but I think she can win it surprised I'm surprised I didn't think so but and and again I didn't want to go in this direction and maybe very briefly so the assassination attempt of of Donald Trump right the roof was completely
[51:28] unprotected how on Earth can this happen I mean I know the the head of the Secret Service stepped down today or yes today yesterday today today this morning but but how is this possible because the roof was sloped come on I mean oh and it was sloped like this it's barely barely like yeah yeah right like snow wouldn't even fall off of it it it it was that not slope and people were screaming here's a gun here's a gun for two or three minutes they were trying to yeah but but the fact that there was no
[52:00] sniper on that roof no CIA sniper on sorry no no secret service sniper on that roof what I mean is that just oversight or or I mean pure you know it was a catastrophic example of an organization's inability to do its job it was the worst failure in the Secret Service since 1981 when Ronald R was shot in the the chest uh and the stomach
[52:31] um I listen I don't I don't mean to be harsh but I I've worked with these people for 35 years and most of them have their heads up their asses they're great with guns but they're just not very bright and over the years you get more and more comfortable with the technology and you feel or act like you don't really need to do the training um 10 years ago 20 years ago this would never have happened like did we learn no lessons with John Kennedy did we learn no lessons with Ronald
[53:02] Reagan um that's one thing another thing I had a great friend at the CIA he had spent 30 years at the Secret Service Michael mrao he's died since but uh he was the founder of the secret Services Office of Intelligence and he was fired from the Secret Service because as the head of intelligence he used to review threatening letters to
[53:32] the president and there was a woman in San Francisco Sarah Jane Moore who would write these letters all the time almost every day I'm G to kill the president I'm going to kill the president I'm going to kill the president so he flew to San Francisco and he went to her apartment and he said Sarah Jane I keep getting these letters you're not really going to kill the president are you and she said no oh I'm sorry I was angry about the environment and I was depressed or the president said
[54:04] something on the news that made me angry I'm not going to kill the president two weeks later President Gerald Ford flies to San Francisco for a campaign rally Sarah Jane Moore is in the audience she pulls out a 45 and she fires six shots and tries to kill the president that's the problem in the Secret Service there's no followup there's no sense of mission the Secret Service is more likely to be in the news for Secret Service agents getting in
[54:36] trouble in Colombia for example for going down there on an advanced trip getting prostitutes and then refusing to pay them and then one of them left his badge in the hotel room and the prostitute took it then they are protecting the president of the United States and they have a massive massive budget right which brings me to the military huge military industrial complex so as far as you can tell or in in in your
[55:07] time and especially I mean relating this now to Israel yeah I mean yeah the weapons that being shipped from America to Israel is a bonanza for those companies who produce them right so we talk about billions here so I mean where are they how should I say this there are no real incentives to to stop this right from from that perspective no no way listen after September 11th we transitioned into a a a a permanent wartime economy a permanent wartime
[55:40] economy it's not an accident that there are more millionaires in the Washington area than anywhere else in America including Silicon Valley um and so if we were to if we were to cut the defense budget and our defense budget is so enormous that it's more than the eight next largest countries combined right if we were to cut that budget we would go into a depression in this country an economic depression we've we've made the situation so dangerous for ourselves
[56:12] it's like a drug addict who says well I'm just going to smoke crack once and then you realize wow that crack is great I'm going to smoke it again and again and again and again to the point now the first thing you say in the morning is I have to smoke crack and that's all you can think about all day long that's how it is with our defense budget yeah yeah but the interest rates of American debt is now higher than the budget for the defense so that's right I mean where I mean America was a I mean
[56:44] that's me being black yeah and and I'm European right I live here in the in the safety of the Netherlands yeah but America benefited from the last two world wars massively especially on the on the second world war right now they have this depth crisis which is actually UNH handleable yes would it not be I mean tempting for the US and you know we are seeing the world going further and further further in this funnel of violence and Global confrontations yeah at the same time that America gets weaker nevertheless
[57:15] they still have 11 carrier carrier groups and I think 900 military bases around the world I mean give you have to consider 900 you know military BAS some of which have 50 50 60,000 people like in in Japan okin right yes so this massive overblown body of arms soldiers more and more private more and more private yeah military IND industrial complex so is not is not there incentive for the US in
[57:47] general don't ask me who yeah to go in that direction like like you know a a larger confrontation yeah yes I think it's almost inevitable and then you know from a policy perspective we can't understand how the Chinese have so many successes right we can't understand that when the US for example goes to Africa and says oh let us build a base here it'll help to protect you and the
[58:18] Chinese go and say hey let us build a highway and an airport for you it'll help your economy develop that they choose the Chinese we just can't understand that and so you're right the inevitable outcome is is going to be War why why prepare for war for decades with these massive budget expenditures if you're not going to do anything with it and so I think we should all fear a policy decision to go to war you know for for
[58:49] example it seems to me that we are that we have a policy of trying to provoke the Chinese especially in this South China Sea and we don't do it alone we do it with the help of Japan and South Korea and the Philippines and Australia and even New Zealand why what do we get out of that other than more defense expenditures that's a very dangerous development if the the proxy war between the US and Russia in Ukraine would not
[59:21] be already dangerous enough right if the situation in Gaza Israel uh Iran would not have already enough potential to you know no we need another bigger war with with China that's exactly right that's that's really I remember conversations in um in the first decade of of the of the 21st century uh conversations at the White House where people would say well of course we can fight two Wars at the same time of course we can but no
[59:52] analysis was ever made of how you fight a twoof front War you're fighting in a Afghanistan and you're fighting in Iraq and then you have to worry about the Russians and the Chinese and everybody else at the same time it doesn't make any sense America will learn when the first super carrier sinks yeah but then then there my concern these these ships they have nuclear not small ones even nuclear reactors on board yeah if such a carrier sinks and he like 2 3 4 5,000 meters time three is feets yeah
[1:00:25] feet on the bottom of the sea with an active nuclear reactor I mean not even talking about the pollution the nuclear the radioactive pollution but this thing could blow this could be a massive massive I mean it's you know it's just manl yeah awful terrible and the Chinese have now Rockets which can destroy carriers carriers MH yeah yes okay John you gave me an hour we have 1 and a
[1:00:56] half minutes left yeah I could go on for yeah is there is there anything that that briefly I mean of of all your career it's it's just incredible there there's so many there are so many things yeah but is there any one particular item that you would like to would like to mention one one question that that I like to ask my guest is through your career and you have you have had an illustrious career are there one or two situations events whatever that really stuck out for you as a person
[1:01:27] yeah there were several I think the most important one was realizing that I was not alone when I stood up for human rights at the CIA I really believed I was alone but the support that I got behind the scenes was incredible the day after I blew the whistle on the torture program a retired deputy director of the CIA very very important man you would recognize his name he emailed me and he
[1:02:00] said you've chosen a difficult path but I'm glad somebody did I only wish I had had the guts to do it myself and that meant the world to me I realized that I wasn't alone and uh you said something at the very start of the podcast the price has been very high but it was absolutely worth it either we're going to be this shining example
[1:02:30] of respect for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties or we're not but we can't be Hypocrites so that was the most important lesson I learned it's thanks to people like you that this kind of information comes out yeah thank you very much your dedication with your risk I mean there must be a I'm sure you paid a personal price in your relationships family friends you you you definitely learned who your who
[1:03:00] your real friends were right and I'm single now and yes oops is that a good thing oh yeah you you really get to know who your friends are yes indeed yeah okay John on that note I I hit my hour I went not over the time thank you so much and we will stay in touch okay thank you I look forward to that thanks for having me my pleasure okay