Episode 188: Former CIA Officer John Kiriakou

[00:02] all right welcome to another episode of Jackman radio and very excited tonight to have a returning guest this is his third time um on Jackman radio with us it's former CIA officer author and whistleblower and just overall good guy John kyaku John thanks so much for joining us tonight man hey thanks guys my only regret is you know last time I was on the show when we finished we went out for a pizza and a couple of beers and we can't do that this time yeah that was that was great yeah we brought you to pasta in mil yeah one of our favorite

[00:32] spots spots up here up the road from we had a studio for a minute but I was telling John before we went live our old producer Ricky moved back to Texas with the family but we had some good times there but uh God there's just so much uh been going on in the world and I was you know obviously we've been following the cabinet picks that Trump has and and the news and foreign policy and everything and I said to Mike I said Mike we got to get John back on the show to get his thoughts on everything that's going on and and of course you wrote a great

[01:02] piece um that Consortium published and a couple other places published uh just talking a little bit about my good friend Tulsi gabri's appointment uh nomination to be Director of National Intelligence by Trump so so many things to get to but first of all John how have you been man what have you been up to I've been great thanks um you know I had a radio show for a long time for seven and a half years on Sputnik uh here in Washington and um sanctions shut us down

[01:32] with literally one hour notice it was one hour before the show was supposed to go on and then I had a I had a TV show called The whistleblowers that was wildly popular it ran it ran in um 100 countries and uh and that was shut down too uh unfortunately because of sanctions the the Biden White House was very crafty about these sanctions they didn't sanction the Russian media they sanctioned the banks we use to get our paychecks so um just the act of

[02:04] receiving a paycheck was uh money laundering and so they threw us all out of work so in the meantime my former colleagues um Michelle witty and Ted R and I just started a podcast that's uh that's on YouTube called Deep program we're gonna change the name soon but we just did our second episode today it should be posted in like the next hour or so and um I'm writing for consor I'm writing for for uh uh cover action magazine and I'm excited to

[02:36] say that starting on January 31st I'm GNA do a speaking tour of Belfast uh Dublin Waterford and Cork Ireland and Manchester England so if anybody happens to be in Ireland wow yeah and tickets have been for sale for a week they're half sold half sold out so get them fast that's great man who's who's putting that on it's called um tiger

[03:08] Lane Studios it's a a production company that has the most popular play in the West End of London right now it's coming to uh coming to Broadway in February called um a night of murder wow starring Hillary [Applause] Clinton wow that so you're going all over John that's amaz amazing I'm excited about it it's it's a kind of a new thing for me a new opportunity and they're just they're going to bring you around to these are they like theaters

[03:40] or are they yeah they're we're start in Ireland we're starting with the hotel ballrooms um we're going to do 50 50 dates in England and they're going to be all theaters mostly local theaters then we're going to go to Australia New Zealand and then Canada then Continental Europe and finish the year in the Middle East whoa that's wild I feel like you know I feel like the Irish have a pension not just for the drink but also for the truth and uh he'll be well received over there I think Mike in all seriousness I

[04:12] think that is exactly right in fact um I'm gonna give interviews to two Irish newspapers tomorrow about the event and they've asked very specific questions that they they sent me a half dozen questions just to think about so um they are they are warriors for the truth yes and that's exactly what they want to discuss wow that's exciting they're not going to be like oh you know is it is it like is it really like James Bond is it John you have to wear a tux when you go on the signment

[04:43] they're they're not gonna go there you know now here I I can wear this when I go when I go on stage huh oh there it is guys there it is yeah we had a comment yeah hopefully John is wearing the infamous SpongeBob shirt he's got it guys we saw your com it's a little worn and I I mentioned on another podcast that I didn't really think about the historical significance of it so I wore it to paint my living room one time and I got paint all over it but you know

[05:14] better late than never it lives on it's like Old Glory yeah yeah and I watched uh I I watched most of your debate with Andrew bamonte man that that what a discussion you guys are having I mean what do you make of that guy do you think is he is he just still currently in he's just a PR dude or is you think he's really out I think he's out [Music] um but honest to God man I I never met somebody who was so obviously an apologist for literally everything that the CIA does Andrew is a nice guy I

[05:46] liked him we even exchanged numbers I like him and it was fun to debate him but he's irrationally Pro CIA yeah what you're talking about was the um the Danny Jones podcast in concrete correct yeah that guy does a great show he's out on John Newman he's out on Jim de eugo all kinds of great guests yeah big big people he gets it's it's really something he's got hundreds of thousands of followers and millions of views it's a lot of fun going down there I've done

[06:17] that podcast three times and he mentioned to me over a year ago he said hey would you be interested in debating uh Andrew Bustamante and I said sure that sounds like fun and then you guys have known me long enough we've been friends for a decade I don't prepare for these things right because I figure if I don't know it by now I'm not going to learn it between now and when the podcast starts so um I started thinking a couple days in advance you know this is a debate and usually it's just John bloviating on right so maybe maybe I should prepare

[06:49] and then I thought no no I'm not going to prepare I'm just going to do what I always do and I got to say I'm I was really pleased at the end of it with with the way I I came out of it I tried hard not to be defensive and and he attacked me at one point um which you a little bit yeah he did it kind of took me by surprise but I think in the end it all worked out he um he spent seven years at the agency uh as a what's called a sue a special operations officer he was not a

[07:20] case officer he was not a case officer I'm going to say it a second time okay um he was a an operations support officer so if I need somebody to do surveillance or counter surveillance for me I need somebody to fill out my paperwork because I'm too busy doing other stuff that's what those guys do he wasn't grabbing ABAB Ban's ear wax no sir okay and he wasn't he wasn't covert or had cover or did he he uh he may have had cover but he's so out there publicly now

[07:53] I wonder I wonder if he ever had cover or if it was what's called um either notional cover which is just as needed or nominal cover which is light light cover where do you work I work at the Pentagon oh okay that's light cover right yeah no that was an interesting chat uh tell him though John if he wants to debate the Kennedy assassination Governor ventor is ready to go we'll go down together you know my feelings about Governor Jesse vent I freaking love that

[08:25] guy and his his son Tyrell is is a deep de friend I I just can't say enough wonderful things about the two of them patriots both they really are both them yeah yeah and you want to talk Kennedy assassination talk to Aaron good too oh my God had him on Oh Aaron is he's amazing as well just amazing yeah he's he's good with the granular and and and um uh yeah you know kind of the more

[08:57] offbeat you know off the beaten P stuff and I think Peter Dale Scott is a big mentor of his yeah big big mentor and another thing about Aaron too is it's not just the JFK assassination he can go just as deep on RFK and on Martin Luther King he's that good yeah I think he I think he's in that um series they haven't released all of it but four who died trying that came out last year they released part one I watched part one it was awesome yeah yeah yeah Mike you wrote a review for for part of that

[09:28] didn't you for the uh her Bobby super pack yeah for um American values I wrote a review for that that came out that's the only piece I've I've written for them thus far but um you know real quickly let me ask you guys a question speaking of Bobby um what do you think about about HHS his appointment as the secretary I think he's gonna get it I think he's gonna get it too I feel really good about it and not only that John I think that Bernie and Cory Booker are GNA vote for him H that'll be the I on the I do I

[10:00] really I think Bernie knows this is kind of his last this is it for him he's 80 what is he like 82 83 years old3 this year yeah yeah he's near the end of his career yeah he's near the end of his career um and he he can really help promote a lot of the things that he has in common with Bobby they're not going to agree on everything um but I'm feeling really good about it Bobby has some really capable intelligent plugged in people around him were helping him navigate the confirmation process and and uh I think he's going to get it I

[10:30] think you know not just because he should get it and that he's been fighting this fight for so long but also I think there's a lot of senators who are they don't want to cross Maga they don't want to cross Trump and have a primary challenge in 2026 you know and that's it's interesting that you say that I I think that's exactly correct and the reason why I also think it's interesting is that from the moment that Donald Trump puts his right hand in the air on January 20th he's a lame duck so technically nobody owes him anything right in

[11:01] reality he is just as fearsome now as he was on January 20th 2017 and you're right nobody dares cross him no I mean Jody Ernst just seeing her she kind of did a quick about faceing a 180 on Heth boy did she real fast and you know it's funny too because Heth is actually easy to criticize and I don't mean you know he's he cheated on all three of his wife and he's got a longstanding alcohol

[11:33] problem that stuff in in the 2020s doesn't matter it's it's not 1989 anymore you know welcome welcome to Washington DC that's right and John Tower you know oh my God John Tower was in the senate for 36 years and we never noticed that he womanized and drank and then they rejected him right um yeah time times have changed but but hex in my view just he's not qualified to run what is essentially a company of 3 million employees and A1 trillion budget

[12:06] like there's not one guy in America that's more qualified than Pete hex to to handle DOD I find that hard to believe yeah hey we had uh Jim Webb Jr on Bobby's campaign when I worked for him as an adviser and I I've always thrown out Jim web's name for anything with Trump and I know every everybody does but I think he's reluct to get back into the scrum you think he's done I think he just doesn't enjoy it yeah but that that guy

[12:36] those are the people you want those are the people you want he was a terrific Senator when he was Junior senator from Virginia terrific Senator and he just didn't like it yeah he beat George Allen right for that seed yeah he did and George Allen was popular yeah George Allen very popular uh but he had the makaka moment which seems quaint now you know yeah yeah yeah that's opening act of a magar rally it's the craziest thing um yeah no those are all really good points John

[13:08] and um you know Trump is going on personality and image uh in in locker room jocular Warrior guy who's gonna run the Pentagon for me yeah um but if heg Seth is gonna make it then that clears the way for Tulsi everybody's G to make it yeah everyone's going to make it Gates I think Trump threw Gates out there as a as a weather balloon as the T it totally how far how far can I push this thing which is also a very Washington thing to do yeah a very Washington thing to do yeah so in your

[13:39] piece John uh the week that uh Trump announced Tulsi um for dni um you mentioned uh some of the haters uh rep Abigail spanberger talking about uh Tulsi you know of course bringing up Assad and bringing up Putin what do you make of the letter or uh the people like Bolton and and the lob and the establishment coming out against her what do you make of that oh I I would consider that to be a badge of honor and I think she already does considered to be a badge of honor you know let's for example look at the uh at her 2017 trip

[14:12] to uh to Damascus first of all members of Congress can go literally anywhere in the world that they want as part of of their own personal fact finding right you're you're a member of Congress in her case she was serving on the armed services committee at the time she's a member of the majority party at the time she's highly respected she wanted to see the situation on the ground for herself um now whether or not you like uh Bashar al-assad's personal politics God bless that's your personal business

[14:44] but the truth of the matter is that until Saturday the Syrian government was secular all religions and I mean that word quite literally all religions were free to PR practice their faith without any interference I have been to the synagogue in Damascus which is one of the oldest continuously working synagogues on the planet Earth I've been to the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in

[15:15] Damascus it was packed to the gills the vice president of Syria was a Christian until Saturday members of the cabinet were Christians there are Christians and women and minorities in the Syrian Parliament okay now that's all out the window now whatever this government ends up being in the end and we can call it Isis or dases or Hezbollah

[15:45] or or alqaeda an front alqaeda exactly we can call it any of those things it is not secular and it does not allow uh the free practice of uh of faiths other than Sunni Islam yeah they're not going to protect Christians protect Christians 10% of the Syrian population is christian 10% and I mean they've been Christians since the time of Christ and the Drews is they're a big minority too right that's right

[16:17] the Drews are in Southwestern Syria and they and they're all on the road carrying their belongings on their backs trying to get out too now I mean John when you first heard about the from idlib is where a lot of them came from right for this to over to final overthrow the speed of it and how rapid it was in the back of your mind where you're like what the hell I mean the Turks the Turks hit the sweet spot so the the the Turks could not have timed this any

[16:48] better it's complicated right so the Turks have long put pressure on Syria all along that border it's a very long very dusty desolate border order they decided to leave the Syrian Kurds on their own it's not worth going to war because the United States supports the Syrian Kurds so outside the area of control of Syria's Kurds is Turkish control now for all intents and purposes Hezbollah has been

[17:18] destroyed as a military force it no longer exists it's a political party but militarily it's done and I mean for like at least the next six to 12 months it's done so they don't have to worry about Hezbollah coming to the aid of the the Assad government that solves a big problem for Israel too and I'll get to that in in a few seconds um number two the Russians are bogged down in in uh Ukraine they have bigger fish to fry right now number three though and I

[17:50] think this one is really important the Israelis have repeatedly attacked Iran in the last 18 months and the Iranian responses have been very very soft you know can you imagine if somebody if a foreign country blew up a residential home in the center of Washington and killed an invited guest of the American government we would go completely batshit crazy launching rockets at everybody and the Iranians are like oh

[18:22] dang the Israelis uh killed isia dang it right in the center of Teran well now what we going to do oh well we'll find somebody to replace fire a potato gun atam fire a potato gun which is exactly what they did the Israelis the Israelis bombed the Syrian the sorry the uh Iranian Consulate in Syria which is a violation of international law the Vienna convention they killed two generals and the Iranians are like ah dang H we should probably retaliate let's send 700 slow motion drones and

[18:56] warn the Israeli government in ADV advance that they're coming to allow them to shoot down 693 of them so the Turks calculated we do this the Russians aren't coming in Hezbollah can't come in the Iranians are afraid to come in and nobody's going to stop us and that's exactly what they did and then as soon as the Israelis saw that the Turks are doing all the heavy lifting for them they have moved into Syrian territory

[19:27] with tanks viol ating the 1974 non-aggression paack that they had with the Syrian government and as of four hours ago which was the last time I checked the Israelis have bombed 350 military sites around Syria wow 350 sites and what's the Russian reaction the ministry of of Defense of Russia yesterday released a St statement saying that they hoped that the new government of Syria would respect the sanctity

[19:59] of Russia's military bases in the country and they're like uh no we're not and they took everything except the Navy base so far wow and then ass Assad shows up at the palace with Putin and another thing too a week ago Saturday Assad and his entire family went to Moscow and there were some Rumblings oh is he fleeing why why did he take his family he met with Putin came straight back to but left his family in Moscow and then

[20:32] over the course of the week last week there were four flights with the same plane between Damascus and Moscow apparently taking plane loads of cash his personal possessions artwork and then ah he just runs away poof it's all over wow yeah it's funny because there's a lot of footage of people looting the palace and they're stealing all these nice ornate chairs so maybe they got everything else out before I suspect so because I'll tell you what those chairs you can get for

[21:03] $150 in the suit Nancy Pelosi had better ones on j6 she had exactly the same side table they're all over the place you can get them everywhere you can get them everywhere they had their own little j6 you know yeah it's it's just so wild so I mean propping up all these Rebel groups and there's what five or six really big ones yeah would would you say yes a group of of what they call um independent resistance that's kind of

[21:34] makes a semicircle around the US presence okay they're just they're just former Al-Qaeda people that that we pay now in in your estimation John is it is it uh British intelligence the Israelis in America who really are the ones funding and getting the resources and the training and the weapons to these guys yeah it's primarily the United States uh and turkey uh the Israelis do it a little bit more indirectly but yeah you you've hit it on the head and and I would even say that the French intelligence service is probably in

[22:04] deeper than the British are really yeah because Syria and Lebanon used to be French colonies and the French still like to keep their hand in things okay so so I add one other thing I'm sorry Mike to interrupt you I wanted to I want I've I've written this little anecdote uh in the past but I think that it kind of puts things into perspective when um when I got divor wor in in 2000 I had my kids for a long weekend and they really really wanted to go to

[22:35] see a WWE show so I got tickets in Madison Square Garden and so we're watching you know Smackdown is what it was and I don't know what the heck's going on so my oldest at the time was uh he was like eight or nine and I said to him I said buddy I I don't understand which one is the good guy and he said well that's just it Dad there is no good guy and that's the situation in Syria

[23:06] there is no good guy so it's not like uh you have to intellectually struggle through this to figure out which one's the good guy which one's the bad guy there are no good guys they're all murderous tyrants all of them it's just that some are slightly less murderous than others that's what I said to you Mike on the ride home today I said none of them are good and and Trump trump was saying people are getting their heads chopped off and Jeb Bush wants to talk about my tone okay I mean Ser did you see Trump's post on Truth social I

[23:37] shared I shared it everywhere and I said this this is why I publicly supported Donald Trump this time around if just for this and he sticks to this we do a little bit better the next four years yes agreed do you feel that way too John don't get involved they're not our friends it's not our fight don't get involved you know galani oh galani there John he was just a a little bit Al-Qaeda when he was 19 when we're teenagers we all go through an Emo or a goth phase could it be could it be that Al-Qaeda was a goth phase when he was 19 do you think he's he's shaken it or do you

[24:08] think he's still pretty big on on the al-Qaeda in the 911 I would say that when he was the number two in Isis that may have been his goth phase yeah as an adult he ended up heading Al-Qaeda he was born he was born in Saudi Arabia to Syrian parents from the go Heights that's exactly right you know and you know you guys know the depth of the hatred that the Saudi royal family has had for the Syrian government for 50

[24:39] years goes back I wonder how much I wonder how much of this guy's logistical money has come from the Saudi royal family because nobody's talking nobody's saying a word about Saudi Arabia well that's that's a really good point yeah what is yeah where where does Saudi Arabia play in all this that's a really good point yeah they're just kind of like you know like we're supposed to think oh yeah oh no they don't have anything to do with it they haven't made any statement that's nonsense and you know I I feel badly for the jordanians because

[25:10] they have yet more Chaos on their border right on their feel bad for the Egyptians because the Egyptians are like well now we don't have enough to worry about with all these Palestinians trying to cross over yeah now we have to worry about all hell break and loose in Syria right exactly what a what a mess yeah I mean you know it's like if Trump can just obviously I think it's hyperbole to say I'm going to get this thing solved in 24 hours John I mean that's it's although since he's been president elect things it seems like China wants to come to the table Israel wants to come to the table um Putin so it's almost like

[25:43] Optics can can lead to something we can almost will something good into existence and maybe keeping the nukes in the silos you know instead of flying and that's that's what I'm hoping for at that this point with you like I'll support the candidate that that that uh doesn't think that there's a good outcome for any nuclear weapons uh hearing some of these military people who go on TV who say well if it was like a limited nle you know if one nuke went off you know and it might maybe it'll kill five or 10 million people ultimately but we we can win that nuclear exchange and I'm just thinking

[26:14] to myself these people sound exactly like lame in the same psychopath that were around Kennedy in the early 60s yes yes Pat Buchanon of course a nuclear war is winnable it's like what on What on what planet are you talking about you know and back to the ones that are criticizing Tulsi and trying to come out against her I think there's a lot of the same names who are on the list that said that the hunter laptop was just Russian Intel so I don't think those people or those voices have any credibility anymore John I don't know zero zero now

[26:45] this is where Trump aired in the first term he talked about draining the swamp and he's gonna kill the swamp monster and he perpetuated the swamp he promoted the swamp monsters you put the likes of bloody Gina haspel in as the CIA director or Mike Pompeo as the CIA director John Bolton as the National Security adviser are you out of your mind but now I think it's different I have a friend who's very senior in in a

[27:17] a major State Republican party and he told me the most interesting story over the weekend he said that he was in the room when Trump was first sworn in right he had been president for a week or two he was in the room um and Trump was talking about he asked he asked a general who was there in the room what would the Fallout be from a US nuclear strike on North Korea he said if I decided a bomb North Korea right now what would the what would the political

[27:48] Fallout be and the general is explaining the Fallout and then the National Security adviser at the time it was um General uh oh I no Flynn it was right after Flynn left so it was a month in I forget now but anyway um he said well Mr President you would have more of an impact if you tried to make peace with the North Koreans it would be so

[28:18] disarming they wouldn't even know how to respond and that's when Trump came up with the idea of the love letter and it was historic wow it was historic so we're not we're not dealing with an idiot I mean you can like Donald Trump or not like Donald Trump I there're a lot of Donald Trump's policies that I disagree with but he actually is the peace candidate because he's openminded enough to listen to others opinions and

[28:49] if he thinks it's a good idea he'll adopt it as his own and I will say I think that his and this is how we started this conversation I think his appointments this time around are far better than they were the first term I think tulsy gabard was an inspired Stick it to the Man choice where you pick somebody who really is going to shake things up but is qualified and know what she's doing and Ratcliffe John Ratcliffe you know again you could like his

[29:21] politics or dislike his politics but he's an outsider with experience right and you a known quantity in DC too McMaster McMaster it was McMaster thank you malberry picker y yeah go ahead Mike what do you what do you make John of the possibility of uh amarillis Fox Kennedy being the number two at the CIA have you heard deputy director that's being floated yes I heard that about four days ago and

[29:51] aios reported it it was a little shocking to me yeah me too but I don't know if you guys I'm sure you guys do know her yeah from the campaign I do I was on staff with the campaign um for about six or seven months and I've had many meetings with amarillis and Bobby um yeah I I know her I know her pretty well I like and trust her I don't know her I've never met her but she's got experience and uh yeah I'll tell you guys a funny story when I first got

[30:24] hired at the CIA I was a junior junior analyst and I got hired with a group of analysts there were like five or six of us and at the onee Mark um you go to meet with your division Chief so you're like a gs9 and he's an SIS three or four so he's what is that uh six he's nine or 10 grades above you and he always asks the same question where do you see yourself a year from now and I said I was the first one to

[30:56] speak and I said well I hope to be an acknowledged expert you know on on the Persian Gulf uh not just acknowledged in the agency but in the intelligence Community I had already briefed the president at that point the vice president the Secretary of State and he goes the next guy and yeah that guy wants to be an expert and this guy there was this older guy he was also a gs9 but he was a linguist and um he said well in a year I would like to have your job and the division Chief kind of looks at him and he says I've been here for 32

[31:29] years to get this this grade and he says well I don't think you're any smarter than I am I think I could do your job oh well the guy didn't last three more months they ended up taking his badge they escorted him to his car and told him get the hell out and don't ever come back but 10 years later I remember reflecting on that meeting now once you hit the 10y year mark in your career that's where the men are separated from the boys and you can sort of see who going to make it into the senior service

[32:00] and who's not at that 10year Mark I remember reflecting back and thinking he probably could have done the division Chief's job it wasn't that hard either you're good at managing people or you're not some people are just born to manage and some are brilliant and just can't they can't manage out of a paper bag Emerald as Fox left the CIA when she was a gs12 or gs13 and she went into the media and into documentary film making and had a second career a second life

[32:31] just because she left as a gs12 or 13 doesn't mean that she can't run the CIA especially 15 years later with all this experience and so I hope she does get this job I think that she would shake things up and I think that she is someone that the rest of us who used to be in the agency and are now outside looking in would consider a friend and supporter right and what based on your your experiences John what is the primary duty of the deputy director of the CIA ah yeah the deputy director is

[33:03] the one who actually runs the day-to-day operations of the CIA the director is busy every day meeting you know breakfast with the president and lunch with the chairman of the Senate intelligence committee and in the afternoon you know briefing the Secretary of Energy and then meeting with the King of Jordan and then dinner with you know the prime minister of uh whatever the deputy director is the one like going to the meetings making the Personnel decisions making sure the trains run on

[33:35] time okay yeah so it's more it's more of a management and um staying on point and on task and kind of directing where things are going to go it's like conducting it's like conducting and and the CIA now has um an executive director uh now it's the deputy it's called the deputy director for I forget what administration or something um that that's not exactly the right title but whatever it is it used to be called the exter the executive director and so the

[34:06] deputy director of the CIA um sort of farms out to the executive director all the budgetary stuff okay so that guy does the budget you do covert action major Personnel changes who gets to be the chief of what station in what part of the world that kind of stuff the deputy director picks that yeah okay so that's based on probably relationships and interviewing people who they find to be experts of those regions of the

[40:57] Kim he divorced her moved to Saudi Arabia was the king's personal physician the king gave him a wife a Saudi woman and the doctor converted to Islam and had a second family wow and Abdullah was from the second white holy I mean that kind of makes sense though so that was legit he was legit it was Kim Phil's half brother

[41:27] much younger brother right much younger he was I'm going to say he was probably 20 years older than me yeah and and at the time I was in my 20s I was like 2 six or seven so he was he was probably 50 wow yeah but small world you just never know and I want to get more information on Alan dulles's relationship with um Ruth Payne's family and Michael Payne's mother's friend have you have you heard any of those stories I've heard a couple of them but you my

[41:59] just as a rule of thumb you should believe every every horrible story you hear about Alan Dulles and uh and about John Foster dullas because they're more than likely true monsters monsters both I did an episode of my TV show on um on the United Fruit Company and how how the United Fruit Company like when the government of Guatemala said hey you know you guys are making billions of dollars uh from our bananas and our people are starving so we're thinking of maybe you know nationalizing part of the

[42:29] company our Benz yeah our bz and then the the United Fruit Company overthrows the government installs our b as the military dictator but did you know that John Foster Dulles Allan Dulles and President Eisenhower's secretary's brother were on the board of directors of the United Fruit Company that coup gave rise to the term Banana Republic right Republic right exactly and and so that arguably

[43:00] the number one or number two person who testified to the warrant commission in 1964 to bury Lee Harvey Oswald and convince everyone of his guilt Ruth Payne her sister was a psychiatrist for the CIA for five years which she also lied about and working on the predecessor of MK Ultra right yes so so there's there's a senator I forget his name who said you know Oswald has the Fingerprints of intelligence all around him so I think uh he I think he was probably being run around and uh um

[43:33] maybe he was trying to infiltrate a plot because the Chicago plot there was an informant named Lee uh who warned about what was going to happen and this was three weeks before Dallas and it didn't go down so yeah I think he was totally set up and I think there's still a lot of information out there that can can illustrate that that could still be released well I tell you what if if it's going to be released it'll be this turn these people that's right that's right Bobby's committed to it and and when Bobby endorsed Trump

[44:04] there in Arizona after he suspended his campaign in August Trump said there on stage in front of everybody um I'm gonna have a special uh commission presidential commission on assassinations and we're g to get all the files out so we got to hold Trump to that and we got people we got now people around Trump and Bobby and amarillis and Tulsi um and even vake had V ramaswami on this show that guy actually knows his stuff pretty well he's a pretty sharp Fant he's a pretty sharp dude he's a sharp dude yeah doge is yeah do you

[44:36] think uh do you think John it's possible for the Parton do you think the paron could get some more legs your Parton uh maybe not through Rudy but not through Rudy look I can't go to John I can't go to an ATM I can't buy a hair dye I can't I can't get cash I can't get Uber I wanted to punch him in the face it has to be a business expense yeah did you know that his dad was a was a muscle guy for the Gambino family yeah I knew his dad was connected

[45:06] to the Mob I didn't know the specifics yeah um I I don't want to say too much but you know Bobby tweeted um that on his first day as president he would pardon Julian Assange Ed Snowden and me I remember that tweet he's been very kind to me I will admit that he's not answered my most recent uh uh text but the guy's busy I'm a little busy right now I'm busy right now John and a Budd a buddy of mine is his he's a member of

[45:36] the transition team is his handh holder and so he told me hey buddy you know we're we're busy right now so just be patient um I have some I have some very important uh supporters you know what I should probably leave it there yeah uh I'll put it this way I I'm I'm very optimistic that's what that's just what I wanted to ask because that's how I feel too the first time we sat down with Tulsi John we asked her we brought your name up and she said she was gonna look at it so I

[46:07] think tosy knows who you are too no she definitely does thank you I I hope so I I I have always liked her and respected her um she and I both spoke at a at an anti-war event oh year ago February um and I tried to chat her up I was there with um Dennis cinic and uh I don't know I I don't want to get my hopes up too much just because I'll I'll invariably be disappointed but you know when Donald Trump talks publicly about about

[46:40] pardoning Julian Assange and Ed Snowden I I know I'm a part of that conversation yeah yeah and any anything Mike and I can do anytime we have anyone's here I we always bring up your story and I say if I can pick someone to get pardon it has to be John Kaku to fredal prison for two years for standing up and having some huge balls and courage and uh doing the right thing you know that wasn't easy and uh thank very much I appreciate that it shouldn't be forgotten um so you know we mentioned

[47:12] deputy director of the CIA now you're in your view the Director of National Intelligence if you had to explain to someone who has no idea what they do what is the Director of National Intelligence do the Director of National Intelligence is in charge of the overall budget for the entire intelligence community and what is called the overall OD for the community that's the operating directive so dni sounds like it's senior to director of CIA the director of the CIA is a more important position but it's

[47:44] almost like comparing apples and oranges so what the the dni does is the dni you know in the beginning the dni had a staff of 15 and now the dni has a staff of more like 8,000 it's grown rather quickly and unnecessarily yeah so they've transferred a couple things from CIA to dni like the president's Daily Brief is now nni publication that's cool because everybody should not everybody but Cia

[48:16] Dia NSA and um INR State INR ought to have the ability to write for it it shouldn't be a CIA exclusive publication now it's not budget the cia's budget is you know the the import of the cia's budget is 98% everybody else is 2% so odni has authority over that but the operating directive is really really really important so

[48:47] um so it goes from zero which is the most important to five which is the least important so zero means they're coming over the wall we got to do something right this second so tier zero would be um war in the Middle East Russia Ukraine China tier one might be nuclear proliferation counterterrorism you know

[49:20] Iran tier two uh is going to be that next level down Cuba Venezuela whatever and then three means ah if you get around to it four means ah there's an analyst down the hall who's interested and five means don't waste your time so it's the it's the dni who all year long is going through hundreds of thousands millions millions of

[49:51] cables um liasing with cabinet members and sub cabinet members to try to get to what every person what every stakeholder has uh on his or her plate that the intelligence Community can collect on it's more of a coordination position than anything else coordinator and you're you're overseeing and maybe trying to Corral the 17 intelligence agencies yeah the they have this uh this position they had this position at the

[50:22] CIA called uh the National Intelligence Council and the members of the of the Nick were called National Intelligence Officers nio so you have a National Intelligence officer for the Middle East one for Russia one for China One for Latin America one for Africa one for warning one for proliferation one for terrorism um and then there's like one for Europe and one for Southeast Asia those have all been transferred to the to the odani and so what they do is they'll

[50:53] write something called a sense of the community memorandum or a National Intelligence estimate or a special National Intelligence estimate and time used to be where those were written exclusively by CIA or INR and now anybody in the community can write them because they're all going to be coordinated by the dni anyway so it actually has opened things up to to more outside the box thinking you know this is a longtime problem at the CIA you

[51:23] have very smart people who went to the best schools in the country and then they engage in this group thing where they all sit around the table and and agree with everybody and I oh I'll tell you what they do they get siloed I remember you you use some Junkyard Dogs sometimes in there as you know junkyard dog man you need a blue caller Jun car of dog you need a bomb thrower like you know gust aotus used to be back in the good old days but I remember sitting there watching these two guys I was sitting there like this watching these two guys argue over a word we're like 45

[51:57] minutes arguing whether it should be happy or glad it's like guys I'm not doing this anymore I don't care what the word is and neither's the president when he reads this stupid paper yeah you know so that's odni now so so DNA I will is one of the only cabinet members though I have this right that it does a pdb like a daily briefing of pus correct every day every day six days a week toy she'll be going in there briefing Trump every day on all of this

[52:27] she will be sitting in on the briefing the uh the pdb staff has a director um and the director is also the editor of the pdb he always is the president's briefer is that that's what Ray McGovern did for 27 years right that's what Ray McGovern did Ray Ray did it for two years uh it took the other I'm sorry he was in for 27 years right yeah took it took the other 25 to work his way up to that if you're an analyst you know if you're an analyst and you're not the deputy director for intelligence that's the job you want that's the most

[52:59] important job in the director yes presidential Daily Brief yeah because I mean if Tulsi does get confirmed she she will have the she will have the ear of the king six days a week so will Marco Rubio R and so will some of you made that point in your piece John so brilliantly Neons you need somebody who's tough enough to stand up to these neocons I think she is man I know she is she is I think so too I think I know she is an inspired Choice yeah yeah I know she is I think

[53:31] even even a lot of people in The Establishment are like holy we really do got to try something different man this this is bad another billion for Ukraine even the average Americans who don't pay attention to this are tired of all this so you know this is why I this is why I support you guys are gonna think I'm nuts this is why I support the nomination of cash Patel to head the FBI okay I probably disagree with cash Patel on 99% of the issues but you need somebody who's going to rip that place down to its bare

[54:03] studs scatter everybody out all over the country rebuild it and then make them stick to the uh to the original uh reasons for even creating an FBI in the first place to their Charter yeah and I think that they're GNA find jer jer Hoover's dresses they're going to find the dresses I mean it's time I think they are let's get them out there you know that's right let's just be honest with ourselves it's it's 2024 we can we can Rebrand Jer G Hoover as woke you know that is right there's a great moment in that movie uh J Eder by Clint

[54:34] Ewood I don't know if you've seen the film I have yeah where he's you know he's like looking over from his office at at the next inauguration and the next inauguration and he he was in there for what eight or nine different presidents yeah he was he was there for 48 he was director for 48 years so which is nuts you know this is kind of what I tell people like presidents are they come and go but I'm sorry to interrupt you Mike my my next my next book um which has been delayed for two years for reasons that

[55:05] are not clear to me it's about Washington DC historic cemeteries and one of the most interesting stories in the book is about Jay Edgar Hoover's grave at um at Congressional Cemetery in uh Southeast Washington do they give the flag to Clyde Tolson is that true or the house like uh Clyde Tolson lived next door but he really just owned the house next door they lived together and then when Hoover died he lived in Hoover's house and was the executive of Hoover's estate they clearly lived as a married

[55:38] couple I mean before before it came out that Army Hammer was kind of low-key cannibal I thought that was a great performance as Clyde Tolson agreed agreed well I'll tell you one of the one of the things in the cemeteries book he uh Hoover's buried in Congressional cemetery and um and they Buri him in kind of a prominent uh place so there's a famous um oh my God his name is escaping me right now he was an an army officer and he outed himself as

[56:10] a gay man in 1976 and was on the cover of Time Magazine and all it said on the cover it was just him standing there and it said I am a homosexual so wow he forced the Air Force to dismiss him and then he sued Air Force and he won and it went all the way up to the Supreme Court and he won um but he ended up taking a payment a payoff payout Leonard matlovich thank you Leonard matlovich so um Leonard

[56:40] matlovich in 1982 um contracted AIDS and that was a death sentence in 1982 they didn't even call it aids at the time they called it gay cancer and so just to stick it to Jay Edgar Hoover he decided to buy a plot as close to Hoover as he could get and so he died in 1986 I think it was and is buried just he's actually buried like two two graves

[57:11] from Clyde Tolson and about eight Graves from from Hoover but because Leonard matlovich was such an iconic important figure in the gay rights movement about 250 other gays bought all all the plots in the area wow and now Hoover is completely surrounded in called in what is called the gay quarter in there's even a historical marker the gay quarter it's the first

[57:44] specifically gay area in any Cemetery in America and and J G Hoover's right smack in the center of it did they send Harvey Milk there is is he buried there Harvey milk's buried there yeah oh man lindsy lindsy Graham has to be buried there with honors John with high H right like I Beed there one who think that that lindsy Graham's gay right well look if I become President John my sister gonna be first lady okay we gonna drink ABS my sister then my mother and then some

[58:16] another woman from the debutants ball will be first lady exactly wow I never heard that story did you hear the story about the the comedian who bought a plot next to Lee Harvey oswal grave no so when you go down to Fort Worth to the cemetery where Oswald is buried and you ask at the front you know we're I want to see the Oswald grave they don't tell people anymore but this comedian bought a gravestone with the name Nick beef and there there is no Nick beef it's it's a fictitious grave so if you ask for Nick

[58:46] beef they'll point you where that is and it's right next to oswalt's grave okay thank you for that that tip so John next time we come down to uh um I'll take J Hoover is so he's not in Arlington right he's not in Arlington no no no yeah yeah no sir Congressional Cemetery he has a different Eternal Flame you know dude oh my God and it's it's in

[59:18] such a great area it just just like 30 feet in front of him there's there are these two obelisks they're for these two sisters and I mean you look at them and you say oh it's some 19th century spinsters whatever no they owned the most important the biggest poror house in Washington it is now uh or it is what is now the um uh Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian it's right at the

[59:48] foot of Capitol Hill so all the representatives just walk down the hill on their lunch hour go to the warehouse and then walk back up the hill and their house is now is now marry Mount University in Arlington wow Charlie Wilson had to have had an office there well hey you know there's there's a new documentary about uh Lincoln Lincoln's bunk me and how saying Lincoln was gay have you heard that that story that theory I heard that I I actually read that you know I'm kind of a Lincoln

[1:00:19] uh offici andado I I'm a Lincoln collector I own a I own a blood soaked scrap of the pillowcase that he died on oh my God really yeah yeah you have to follow the provenance it's all about the provenance I own three strands of his hair that the doctor pulled out to get to the bullet to dig the bullet out of his brain and I own ask how much you spent for that yeah it's it's expensive and I mean that was your first CIA retirement went towards that yeah the these are not these are not like from

[1:00:50] eBay these are from sopes and these are hor cruxes yeah yes with impeccable provenances I own a I own a piece of the of the Gallows that the that the conspirators were hanged on and I've got a I've got an 11 and a half inch strip of wallpaper from the room that he died in the only thing I ever got out bid on and I kick myself this was like 10 years ago was the the original key to his tomb I I lost that I dropped out at 6,000 it end up going for like 9,000 I just

[1:01:22] couldn't that's okay yeah I mean it's just a skeleton key you know I couldn't I mean is is it true the bed was too small to rest him on the bed was too his legs were hanging over the bed they they had to lay him diagonally on the bed because his uh his legs were hanging off one of the first things that really got me interested in politics in American history was a trip in eighth grade called American Heritage Tour that we took with another school and we actually went to um Ford's Theater where where Lincoln was sh it's it's magnificent isn't it it's amazing that it's still

[1:01:54] there and they got the box there with the with the um it's like a red white and blue uh flat bunting yeah bunting I'll tell you one other thing too I went to a I went to a museum with my kids once and my wife in uh Baltimore and it was called the sideshow Museum it's defunct now and it was stuff from 19th century sides shows and they had this shadow box about that big with with a turd a dried out turd in it and it was Abraham Lincoln's last turd and they

[1:02:25] said that the night that he went to the theater you know he got there a little bit late the show had already started everybody when they saw him they stood up and and clapped and then the show went on that he discreetly excused himself so he could drop a deuce and then went back into the box and Booth shot him so I'm like oh my God and I'm taking pictures of it right like I I had never even heard of this before it was from some circus side Sideshow well then six months later the museum goes out of business and they

[1:02:57] decide to auction off all the Holdings and I said to my wife I'm buying Lincoln's turd I'm buy she's like this is absolutely not you have no idea what the provenance is that's why you got divorced that was why you got that one one of the many reasons so I said I'm buying it so it was it was the dookie from CAD Shack it was the baby roof bar there's like a there's like a a grain of rice sticking out of it and um and like historians will tell you what his last meal was and it included rice and I'm like okay if this is truly

[1:03:27] Lincoln's tur I'm buying I don't care oh my so I go to the auction online and and I get out Bid And I'm like damn it like what A Conversation Piece right but then the buyer sent it for DNA analysis and they found that the turd had bits of Necco wafer in it you remember neers when we were little kids that's a more recent thing 1880 started making necro Wafers 1880

[1:04:00] so I kept my five grand you T yeah and my wife is like you idiot I told you there's no historical evidence that he took a during the during the play how would they I mean yeah we we' have to get Al Jones analyze the plumbing there at Fords that night folks we'd have to look at what kind of plumbing system they had how you get access to it folks we we'll have Andre Devonte look at it this is the thing John this is what you know he does the

[1:04:31] thing with his hands like this is the thing Lincoln you know at the theater where Lincoln was shot okay I can't confirm this but I was only gs13 when this happened so I'm not going to say too much yeah like I like your Sideshow Bob hair like you're trying to be discreet and you look like Sideshow Bob he's undeniable rule number one do not draw attention to yourself one time I was sitting at a cafe in Athens with the station Chief we were just doing a little surveillance detection route and

[1:05:01] we stopped at this Cafe and we're sitting outside just having a beer and these two guys start insulting each other like your mother your sister you know going back and forth and then one of them like slaps the other one across the the face and then much to our shock the other guy that got slapped pulls out a knife and instinctively I stood up and my boss says what the do you think you're doing did they teach

[1:05:32] you nothing do not draw attention to yourself and I sat back down and he was exactly right and Here Andrew bante looks just like Sideshow Bob he's very cartoonish it's yeah I you're you're a big guy what do you like 62 61 61 yeah so you're you're not you're not like a shrinking violet John so no you're you're over there you know do you have to put like the you like ever have like a porn star mustache or oh yeah mustache beard I had this I was talking about

[1:06:03] this just recently on a podcast I had a bald head with a comb over and it was so perfectly done that the only seam was right here on the bridge of your nose it was before I wore glasses so they gave me glasses with clear lenses that covered up the seam I went into the ambassador's office with a station Chief and he said Ambassador I'd like to introduce you to one of our experts came from Washington and he says oh hi Hi how are you nice to meet you and I said I'm doing well thanks how are you he said I'm doing well who are you here to see and I go like this I go actually I'm

[1:06:34] here to see you and I pulled it off and he just goes he his pants he's like oh my God you guys always amaze me oh my God now now doing a good impersonation is that a good skill for an officer if you can do a good like vocal or verbal accent or impersonation without a doubt I told a story the other day um was on a plane once from Milan to Sophia Bulgaria and I never talk to people on planes I hate it I just mind my business I read I

[1:07:05] just apologize because I take up two seats because of my hat I just I'd like to apologize in advance so I'm sitting next to this Italian guy who won't shut his mouth really it yeah seriously wouldn't shut up imagine so he says so what do you do for a living and I was like ah I'm in uh import export and he said oh well what do you import export and I was like H you know

[1:07:35] whatever whatever I can make money on well that sounds kind of mysterious finally I go look I smuggle women in cigarettes from Eastern Europe okay you happy now and he goes like this he goes I don't think I approve I said I didn't ask for your approval shut the up and then he just he sat there like this the rest of the flight it's like he didn't say anything nothing not a word the rest of the flight right so don't draw don't draw

[1:08:07] attention to yourself John but there are times you do have to Peacock a little bit to kind of yeah kind of like keep your keep your cover nip it in the bud that's right Master of Disguise style like Dana Carvey I think Dana Carvey would be a good asset or an agent I mean he's I'm not a fan of SNL now man but he he brought the church lady back last weekend it was phenomenal yeah yeah just as good as it always was he is and he he's almost 70 years old and he still crazy and had like heart replacement or open almost died yeah something he he he had a lawsuit because

[1:08:37] of that because the doctors messed up his surgery and he almost sadly his one of his sons just died a year or two ago I think overdose overdose yeah I saw that but he's a big inspiration for us for like impersonations and comedy and you guys you guys do it right you really do you know it I fooled my sister one time I have to say I called my house one time pretending to be one of my friends asking for me and my sister answered the phone and she thought it was my friend so that's great that was like back in high school

[1:09:08] but Eric we got a couple chats here we're over the hour mark I know we said about an hour but um yeah you know we got a couple chats for John or or comments or I know you mentioned you wanted to see some chats yeah uh they know your Pennsylvania background John can the Pirates do something in this baseball Market not so long as nutting owns the team you know oh man listen I drive up to Pittsburgh four or five times a season to go see the Pirates I freaking love the Pirates I don't care how bad they

[1:09:38] are I just love the Pirates but now we've got this kid this Phenom um who is gonna win the sa young last year or next year he just won the uh he just won the Rookie of the Year uh this season um his name is Paul skes this kid is a Phenom he's going to be he's going to be you know a Wan stto kind of kind of baseball player but as a pitcher and the Pirates are gonna do nothing to give him hitting

[1:10:08] support nothing nothing so long as nutting owns the team the the Pittsburgh Post Gazette had an analysis of this the other day where the Pirates have the third lowest payroll in all of baseball it's like $38 million but they take take in like $56 million after all expenses and all that money goes right into nutting's pocket so why would he want to spend money to make a real team when he's making so

[1:10:39] much money now it makes me sick because you know when I grew up north of Pittsburgh it was in the 70s we won the World Series in 71 we won the World Series in 79 we made the playoffs like literally every single year of the 1970s these guys were Legends my first baseball game that my dad ever took me to Roberto Clemente was in right field Willie starel was in left field Manny sangan behind the plate I mean these guys were Legends Hall of Famers now they're just like jokes that just bounce

[1:11:11] back and forth between Pittsburgh and the minor leagues it's really sad so we're not we're not they're not going to do that well then this year you're not you're not holding on hope no no you know we always start off strong and then just fade in August and September and end up 10 20 games under 500 it's embarrassing yeah the red the Red Sox were 81 and 81 last season yeah you know was pretty cool uh on Bobby's campaign I actually worked and become good friends with um a young fell he's

[1:11:42] probably probably eight nine years younger than me he's C Shy's grandson oh how cool is that which which was cool yeah yeah so that was I met I met ulyses srant I 6th wow he he is a plumber in St Louis Missouri really wow my ex-wife um spent a day working with Teddy Roosevelt IV he's a he's a banker on Wall Street how's it related to Kermit and the fall Moji deck

[1:12:15] yeah well you know it's funny that you bring that up Mike because um Bob Shear is a great friend of mine Bob uh is a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner he was at the Los Angeles Times for decades um he's the one that did the famous interview with Jimmy Carter during the 76 campaign and he got Carter to say that he had lusted in his heart that was like a headline if you can imagine it I remember that well I don't I wasn't a lie but I know the story you're talking I know that particular

[1:12:46] headline so um he told me when he was a brand new journalist he he told his wife I would love to interview Kermit and I want to ask him about madic and the overthrow of the Irani government whoa and so she said then call him and he said it had never occur to him just to find a number and call him so back then all the news rooms in all the big cities had um Telephone books from all around the country so he gets a Washington DC phone book and sure enough

[1:13:17] here's Kermit Roosevelt listed in the Washington phone book and he's staying some he's living in some old folks home up by the zoo so he calls him says who he is I want to do an interview Kermit Roosevelt had never done an interview before but he was at the very end of his life and so he decided for posterity he's gonna do it and he gave such an in-depth L uh in-depth interview to to Bob Shear that Bob was able to tell for the first time the unvarnished story of

[1:13:49] the overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953 now subsequently we've learned that most of what Kermit said was that it was actually the British that overthrew the government Kermit was the US liaison to MI6 and Kermit Kermit was a was a media he wanted to leak the story that he they were dropping they were dropping pamphlets and right and they were doing riots and counter riots exactly that's exactly what

[1:14:19] happened yes wow yeah he died in 2000 yeah that's kind he was old he was born in 1916 it says here so 1916 to 2000 John what do you make of like e Howard hunt at the end there was a rolling stone piece there's his son St John Hunt like I'm sure you're familiar with him and with that do you think ye Howard hunt was loopy full of or you think he was being truthful and he said that he was a benchwarmer for Dallas I I think that I think that

[1:14:50] Howard hunt probably had something to do with it you know there's this natural human need to come clean at the end of your life unless you're some kind of sociopath most of us have this need to atone and um you know there weren't rumors about Howard hunt going back to 1963 for no reason right there's a reason why he was always suspected of having had a role in uh in Dallas and it may not have been a direct role but I

[1:15:21] think that what he confessed on his deathbed we should probably take seriously is there is there a CIA historian or or something in conjunction with the um CIA Hollywood liais on office where when when people ask about the Kennedy assassination or or or or a famous oper event that like handles that as like a PR person yeah what they do is they just refer you to the office of public affairs and then public affairs will refer you to the um to the office

[1:15:51] of the CIA historian which has a website with all the the Declassified documents which tell you nothing that will answer your question but then they say oh look how transparent we are we have 40,000 pages of documents on our website oh my God is it tells us nothing no it doesn't tell us anything I hear they have a podcast now John have you heard that they do yes they haven't invited you on they have not invited me on but I will say Just Between Us Girls here on the on the podcast you're having more fun on

[1:16:21] Jackman radio that my detractors at the CIA are all either retired or dead and I never say no to a student who wants to talk to me about career opportunities and whether the CIA might be right for them or wrong for them and I give them the unvarnished truth well a couple of them more than a couple about a half a dozen have actually made it through the process and are now at the CIA oh that's great and they've told me

[1:16:53] because I tell them listen I'm a realist I would love it if the CIA ceased to exist but it's not going to cease to exist there's always there are Patriots in the CIA though I that and if you want to change the CIA you have to do it from the inside so now these half dozen people are inside and um and uh she said that they've done a 180 on me and it started when

[1:17:25] bloody Gina haspel in her Senate confirmation hearings admitted that the torture program was illegal they told me I heard this again just on Saturday that as soon as she said that people felt free to express their real opinions and she said people have completely turned around on you wow I mean deleting does of tapes from black sites of torture is kind of an admission of guilt and being wrong being totally wrong in

[1:17:57] what you did right so wow that's got to feel good though John for you yeah yeah yeah you know it did very much so and I'll tell you another thing A buddy of mine on Friday sent me a a buddy of mine was taking a class at the Department of Homeland Security and he said dude he said you're famous here and he sent me this this screenshot of a of a PowerPoint slide and it says The Insider threat and it has a picture of me really seriously from his class yeah

[1:18:30] idiots you know what was cool that I saw and I think I even saw this since the last time we had youan in Milford uh you were actually a professor or teacher at Jared Leto oh yeah I was Jared Leto's High School history teacher and he came back there later after he got really big and famous and was like I I love you let's do this interview like like yeah you know like that's cool funny thing about Jared he was freaking brilliant Brant and I don't I don't throw around the term brilliant I mean he was I I said to him senior year he asked me to write him a letter of recommendation for

[1:19:02] film school right so I did and I said Jared he said I want to be a I want to be a director Mr kiraku and I said Jared you're you're gonna be a success no matter what you decide to do truly he um he went to film School in Philadelphia I went to the CIA I went overseas came back on RNR in 1995 and here's Jared on the cover of TV Guide he was doing this show um my so-called life he played like the really goodlooking brooding quiet kid and he won an Emmy

[1:19:36] and I was like oh my God Jared made it and we we I ran into him on the street once and we stopped and chatted and he's like I know I can't believe it I'm like I told you you're gonna be a success no matter what you do and then I won when I wrote my second book I won the uh Penn First Amendment award it's a big deal it's one of the big four with the pen Falkner the Pulitzer and the Edgar Allen Poe and they said well do you know anybody famous that could give you the award it's at the Beverly Hills Hotel

[1:20:06] was the ceremony and I said yeah I know a couple people I said um I said yoka Ono might do it she's been really good to me so they called her and she said oh I'd like to do it but I'm kind of frail now and I can't fly out to the West Coast anymore it's just too much for me so I said I said Oliver Stone would do it in a hardbeat and they said n we had Oliver last year we want to try to mix it up and I said well you know I was Jared Leto's High School history teacher so they said oh okay we'll reach

[1:20:37] out we'll reach out to his uh his people he said yes instantly and um and he went and he he did it it was great and then the next day I went on his podcast went to he he has a house in the Hollywood Hills and and he's got a studio set up there so I went wow what's funny is that that big show my so-called life was with Claire Danes who was Carri in Homeland exactly right brilliant totally act accurate about CIA John right

[1:21:08] everything totally accurate totally accurate the only thing that was inaccurate was um if you go nuts they send you away until you're not nuts anymore you can't just go nuts and keep doing the job you yeah you fail up become station Chief and and yeah but but Jared little also at one time owned the lookout mountain out in um yeah he still does lur Canyon you know like you know Frank Frank Sinatra and Mar Monroe had like security clearance to go there and film stuff yeah yeah it was a Navy

[1:21:39] facility it is it's absolutely enormous it's like 100,000 square feet but it looks like you step into a time capsule it's right out of the 70s have you been have you been there yeah yeah wow it's a hole Yeah it's it's gonna take aund million it's it's California okay of course it's a hole okay EXC sh excuse me it's Gavin Newsome's backyard of course a hole Yeah it's gonna be a hole we have another question here I think we touched on this in our first one was Phil uh

[1:22:11] John B hello John was Philip Seymour Hoffman character in SE Charlie Wilson's War modeled after John K it was close though close well thank you no the Philip soroff Philip cofen character was modeled after my mentor and friend gust avatus and you know the only difference between Philip Seymour Hoffman and Gust in real life was that gust had a far filthier mouth and was more violent than Philip Seymour Hoffman Hoffman was in

[1:22:43] the movie what time what time gust and I were talking in the office oh I'll never forget it and I mean he and I were like this right he was truly my mentor was like a father figure to me and we grew up I mean I grew up within 15 miles of his hometown so we had the western Pennsylvania connection and we're both Greek and you know all that stuff we used to have dinner together all the time but I said one sentence I said malos was a torturer now malos was the second victim of of a

[1:23:16] terrorist group that we were working against called revolutionary organization 17 November he was also the chief of the Greek National Police during the military dictatorship and he was a proud avowed torturer the United Nations called him gree's head of torture so all I said was malos was a torturer he grabbed me by the shirt and slammed me up against the wall and said malos was my friend like

[1:23:47] that and I said old man you better get your hands off me or you're GNA be very sorry and then he let me go and I said I know he was your friend he was also a monster keep your hands off me and then you know we went to lunch together like everything was fun and then after that you guys had some peer bread some uh you know some some good Greek nice Greek food and um well that's it's interesting because that's similar to kind of when you were doing the debate um on concrete in

[1:24:19] Buon his mentor and the guy that helped his wife get in was a guy that you were like well this is a guy who oversaw torture who signed off on it or I forget his name but yeah yeah Bustamante is um misguided I'd like to podcast I'd like to have him on you think he'd come on yes I do yeah you think he would yes we'll be nice nice to him when was he in in the 90s or later than that he's younger than a lot oh he's a lot younger than I am yeah he was there for seven years from like

[1:24:52] 05 to 12 or well that would be interesting Mike because we came of age in the war on terror so we able to talk some with him yeah love to you know Homeland securi threat levels with uh uh you know Ash coft and ridge that was very real for us Mike red orange yellow yeah we we trolled uh Tom Ridge at a Jeb Bush event uh back in what 2015 Eric when was it We snuck backstage after Jeb spoke because Tom Ridge introduced him and we we had a

[1:25:22] camera in front of Tom Ridge we didn't film this part we filmed a little thing with him but I said we filmed I said could you say if you don't hi I'm Tom Ridge and if you don't listen to Jackman radio we're going to raise a terror alert level to Red he looked at me he's like he's like I'm not going to do that I mean John this is literally a guy this guy was so scary to Mike and I he's our Freddy Krueger he's our Freddy Krueger because after 911 and they created Homeland Security this is the guy that's on TV day in and day out

[1:25:55] blinking red man for forest fires are at yellow today oh they're at Orange oh they're at Red like you know it's it's it seems comical now but that's how we grew up so I I remember when I was still at the agency and they raised it to Red there was a run on duct tape at Home Depot Jes and I remember George tenant saying this is ridiculous this is ridiculous we can't keep doing this even tenant said that huh yeah he had a Moment of clarity these these colors didn't make anything make uh sense anybody that was clown World colors it

[1:26:27] was just to scare people fire pixie says John I got to ask what is John's opinion the Fletcher proudy she she was wronged wronged wronged but not by the CIA by the FBI well no Fletcher wasn't he the I think he was a uh what was Fletcher protar he was liaison to the Pentagon and the like I'm sorry I'm sorry you know what I'm talking about uh oh back proty was uh southerland's

[1:26:58] character in JFK was based oner I'm sorry I I was thinking of of um the woman someone else her name is proudy hold on a second um folks we do this live we do this in real time we do it live like Bill O'Reilly yeah it we'll do it live she she was accused of being a member of his Bala oh wow oh you don't want you want to be that person Jesus 's wife Gordon proud's wife uh her name was

[1:27:29] not a proudy sorry not a proudy so I I worked with her husband and um and she she was a naturalized American of Lebanese origin she joined the CIA had a stellar career went to the FBI and they um they picked up some Communications where she was talking to a cousin in Lebanon Hi how are you what's new how's everybody how's the family and then her cousin was married

[1:28:00] to a guy who was a member of Hezbollah well esbal is a legitimate political party in Lebanon right right whether we like their politics or not well the reality of it and so they actually revoked her American citizenship so here she's a she's an FBI agent and a former CIA officer and she is not any longer an American citizen and she was stuck in this no man's land because she's married to a member of the senior intelligence service you know what do you do wow yeah that's shitty awful awful terrible yeah um oh and I'm looking at

[1:28:34] fbi.gov ex agent proudy pleads guilty um she plad guilty to fraudulently obtaining American citizenship which she used to get a job with both the CIA and the FBI they they railroaded her Fletcher proudy right he was the chief of special ops um but I I don't think he was at the CIA was he he was the Pentagon he was a yeah he was a pentagon guy who liaz Pentagon Intel agencies on Covert Ops cover yeah

[1:29:05] exactly Donald Sutherland betrays him in JFK that's right on him yeah I apologize I really don't know enough about him to say anything F apologize I just wanted to I was a audience uh question so I wanted to make sure we asked it no that's fine um but you know another question I had John and you already you don't have to tell the whole story and I I I thought this story was hilarious and I thought it humanized a certain former president was Bill Clinton just being chastised by Hillary when you were on a trip and then you observed him going

[1:35:57] torture for everything and he goes I can tell you're not passionate about that that's that's the first thing he says and he totally disarms the whole the whole room laughs at me see what he does he's good at it a friend of mine a friend of mine was the head of fundraising for Clinton for the entire southeastern United States and he became Clinton named him ambassador to Luxembourg and now he's the president of well I won't yeah okay he's the President of recers University so anyway

[1:36:28] he told me the greatest story he said that when the Lewinsky uh story broke all the finance people got together and said we have to convince him to resign he's got to resign let Gore be president and then let G Gore run for his own term he can't continue on his president he might be indicted by the grand jury for perjury he's got to resign and they all met the night beforehand they rented a a a small Ballroom like a meeting room at the Willard Hotel across the street from

[1:36:59] the White House and um and uh Clinton came over so they're all prepared he said it was like eight of them they're all prepared to say Mr President you have to resign for the good of the democratic party for the good of the country he walks in and he says I have let you down friends and started crying and the Ambassador told me 15 minutes later they're balling and they're shouting we

[1:37:29] love you Bill we love you nobody ever mentioned the word resignation and he said we knew exactly what had happened somebody had leaked to him what this was about yeah and he's so good at work in the room and disarming everybody he's got a way about him oh yes he does so John what what is in your opinion what's the most accurate film depiction of the CIA and why is it the Good Shepherd in the recruit yeah it it actually is the Good

[1:38:00] Shepherd in the recruit oh is it I I literally just pulled it out of my ass now you know what I I just gave a very very long interview to um to business weekly for a documentary that they're doing on spy films and we went into depth I mean for hours I was there for four hours we're looking at clip after clip after clip the recruit the only thing about the recruit that was inaccurate hair yeah that too actually no that there are a lot of guys with hair like that um it was that they didn't beat us

[1:38:30] in training that that was made up for dramatic effect everything else was spoton it was exactly right and then um uh what were we just saying um uh the recruit and then good shepher good sheeper because the Good Shepherd was was historically based like they used actual firstand accounts first person accounts documentary accounts to make that real it it was it was right

[1:39:01] on when when he finds out that his like British Professor is MI6 or he's like he's also with the SE and then they kill him and throw him in the water you're just like what the is going on but that that crazy used to happen during the Cold War OSS we and OSS we we had a we had an agreement with the KGB once the CIA was created in in 1947 we had an agreement with KGB we won't kill your guys and you don't kill our guys and both sides really held to that the KGB didn't have the same agreement with other services and you know in fact when

[1:39:32] Kennedy when Kennedy was killed the first official communication we had from any country was from the KGB and they said we swear we didn't do this kof wept yeah at when he was in line to sign the book at Kennedy's funeral that that that's what I've read I mean I think Bobby even writes about that yeah in in the American values book and I think Jackie Kennedy even even said shortly after we know it wasn't Cuba we know it wasn't Russia because Fidel Castro's first reaction when he heard was like oh

[1:40:04] yeah so to go back earlier when you were talking were they spying on Oswald in Mexico City I don't I don't think Oswald was even in Mexico City he couldn't he couldn't drive he didn't have a license so supposedly he got there on a bus but I I just I don't think like although there was there is a CIA person who said um her and her son their job was to photograph Oswald or take video footage

[1:40:35] of them or but let's see it I I guess I want to reserve judgment before we see if I based on my research I personally don't believe Oswald ever went to the embassies down there but I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong I'd love to see these documents I don't think there's any legal reason for them to remain classified yeah especially since Congress has mandated that they be Declassified and there is no legal exemption from the mandatory declassification act it was a law that

[1:41:07] was passed in '92 so by 2017 they all should have come out and it was actually Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence that told Trump not to do it not to do it yes so bums bums if it was just oswal and there's no conspiracy and it's three shots from The Book Depository Kennedy none of them should be classified because they're all long dead right exactly precisely so yeah we want to get that all out there and that's that's the hope that we have with Trump and Bobby and tulsy and everyone who's in there around

[1:41:38] him and I'm with you John on cash Patel I think that guy's gonna be a ballc Crusher and a wrecking ball to all that and and and you always say John don't ever talk to the FBI do not trust the FBI they they will they will they will you four ways from Sunday they will you know what I want to read you something if we have a minute I apologize that we have gone so long no well it's John you can do this as long as you want to do it man we don't want to waste your time looking forward to this I will I will leave everybody on on

[1:42:08] this note hold on one second audience Loves You John jacman radio loves you you're one of our favorite guests quite frankly thank you I appreciate it the only other guest who's been on three times I think is Jesse ventor and Adam Fitzgerald and we talked about great so you're part of a uh good company yeah you're part of yeah he's in the the Greek Hall of Fame though Eric I think he's the only actually John I think we told you this my parents honey Mo was in Greece I remember that we talked about that 1984 so that it holds a special place in my heart I love it ah here it is I want to read this to you I received

[1:42:40] this I received this as an email on Saturday it says John it's nice to finally speak with you I've been watching your YouTube interviews and I love all the content and I've been wanting to reach out to you for many years I'm one of the FBI agents who would like to personally apologize to you for the disgraceful way that the FBI and our government treated you I worked with both FBI headquarters and the Washington field office on your case and I know that many of I know many of the Personnel that you're familiar with that case was directed and driven by senior

[1:43:11] officials it was a political case the mid-level and Street Personnel were against it from the beginning but nevertheless we followed orders I've always felt bad about that case and for the way you were treated and I wanted to personally apologize sincerely and then he signs it whoa really you just got that how do you like them apples that's beautiful you know what the Tide's turning everybody I think the Tide's turning the you know what I think the people are ready for truth we're ready for a John kiraku Parton we're ready for Tulsi D and I and we're ready for all

[1:43:41] the Cy to come out no matter how it lands let's let's have let's have a Truth and Reconciliation and let's move forward as a country Amen to that that's thanks for having me you guys it's great seeing you I only regret I'm not going to be in New Hampshire until a couple of weeks from now so we can't go out to Milford again but I'd love it hey if you're up here you're visiting family we would love to take you out for a beer or and I'll be with my son I'll bring him too oh hell yeah awesome we got a great Brewery here in our neighborhood we'd love to bring you and your son too done

[1:44:13] well John before we uh get off here log off tell everyone where they can find you and support what you're doing right now ah thank you I put literally everything that I do um uh on substack so it's just under my name John kiraku it's called loud and clear with John kiraku or by John something just if you just put in John cuak it all pops up so thank you for that awesome well folks thanks for tuning in with us tonight it's always fun with John and uh John is proof that there are really good people who can serve in our government there are patriots on the inside people who want

[1:44:45] to do the right thing and will do the right thing so thank you for tuning in with us hit that like And subscribe button and if you want to support this podcast patreon.com Jackman radio and we will be back again soon with another episode thank you everybody and take care and have a great night