[00:59] Hello everyone. And welcome to our second show for the night. I'm really excited about our guest. It's a live show now. John Kiriakou I saw a documentary back in 2017. I believe it was on whistleblowers and the like and John was featured in part of it. I reached I was figured out how to reach out to him and I actually had him on the everything else show that I do here sometimes. And it was a fascinating conversation. This is back in 2017. And if you watch the show all
[01:30] the way through at the very end of the show I'll have that linked. That particular show you can hear his interview in full. Back then I considered John an American hero really. He was a whistleblower. Former CIA and he was a whistleblower on torture actually and through all different means he ended up spending time in jail. And now he's out there there's all he's received awards. He's out there doing talks all over the world about this. A very interesting guy
[02:01] but he also had a UFO sighting. It's so funny because I had no idea that he even paid attention to this topic at all when I interviewed him the first time. And then I saw he was on Chris Ledo show and I said what the heck? And so I got back in touch with him and again I'm really really happy to have him on tonight. So this is our blog this week and it's about the Cash-Landrum case. A very interesting case that happened in Texas. And there was radiation burns so check that out from from Charles Lear who always does our
[02:32] shows. And we are beefing up our audio blogs. They're just it's taking a little while to get them out there but they'll be starting soon. Those are out on YouTube and also they go through our podcast. Audio podcast which we do have I have to say that I've been pretty excited about our audio podcast because we get generally speaking about 150,000 downloads per month. So thank you all for listening all over the world. It's been a real pleasure doing this show. And it is my honor to bring our guest
[03:04] in. Welcome back John. Thank you Martin. Good to see you again. I would have never guessed in a million years we'd be talking again about especially about UFOs. Of all things. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah that's funny it never came up. I never told you about it when you were on the show before. But where are you located these days? I'm in Arlington, Virginia just outside Washington. So basically where you were when we first talked or the same general area. Mhm. I've been here now for 25 years in Arlington. I
[03:34] like it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that's And we talked earlier offline about um I was going I got I went to a couple of the two hearings that were there. And that was very exciting on UFOs. Did you even hear about that when that was happening? Yeah I actually followed it closely. Just because I'm on so many podcasts usually about international affairs intelligence security um it I have an interest. You know like you like you do and we're
[04:06] going to talk about that tonight but uh I couldn't help but to follow it. We we covered it on my podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I just realized I have a clip right here. I'm going to play it. It was when I first uh I was there and I I met David Grusch. Hey David. David. I heard my name. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Really appreciate it. Great job.
[04:36] So that was kind of funny when I did that because he looks he's looking around like who's after me? An assassin. Yeah. So but anyway that was that was really fun to and it was it felt like a very historic you know situation. You know for and the amount of people Yeah. The amount of people that showed up. really it was the first time that there was I'm not going to say the first time that the government came clean. It was the first time that they threw a bone to those of us who have said for years and years that
[05:08] there's something out there. They know more than we do and they won't tell us. Yeah. That's right. Now um I was at I was a the MC at the MUFON event. It was a symposium this summer out in last summer in in Irving, Texas. You know the Dallas area. Yeah. And uh in in the someone came up to me and they said uh well you know I just found out that there's a retired CIA and a retired FBI
[05:40] uh guy right over there. And so I went up to a room I told my girlfriend producer Donna and she said let me at him. Let me at And so she said I'm going to buy them drinks. I'm going to get the information. I'm going you know. So anyway she went right right to them and sat down and got a conversation going and eventually um you know later on I got to sit down and talk with them and they were there because they have interest in UFOs. But I just want to tell you the the former CIA the retired CIA said to me
[06:10] that there was some type of I don't want to call it like intranet or some type of He said it's something like a Wikipedia type thing for the CIA. Mhm. Do you understand what I'm talking about? Yes. Mhm. Okay. They were developing it just like they started developing it a year or two before I I left. Oh I see. So he said the day that opened the number one search was UFOs and extraterrestrial. When I got hired at the CIA the very first question I asked was what kind of information do
[06:42] we have on UFOs? And my boss laughed at me and said that's the first question that we all ask. And there's nothing there's nothing in the system. Wow. Yeah. Yeah he said Pentagon the Pentagon has it all. Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that's true? Yes. Yeah. I do. I had I did have a retired I'm meeting him in California next week. Oh by the way I should mention just while I'm talking here just to put this out there that I'm going to uh California next week and I'm
[07:13] going to be in uh interviewing live uh in San Rafael California in his home a professor that teaches a course on UFOs. And then I'm going to be speaking and I'll Yeah. That's great. I know at Berkeley of all places. Oh my heavens. Yeah. And It's a summer course but still you know that's it's still be really fun. And then I'll be at this event for anyone that's in the Bay Area I'd love to meet up with you. I'm going to be there and here's the information up on the screen. Um and so anyway I just wanted to get that out
[07:43] of the way. I'm going to be there you know next I'm leaving tomorrow. We're leaving tomorrow to get out there. So that's going to be a lot of fun. But um yeah I just think that there's you know this there's there's something to it. There's uh they what I meant to say also John Ramirez has been on the show three times maybe four times. He's a retired CIA. And he showed you know what he could uh you know the awards and stuff like that to to confirm he was. And he just said there's a lot of people
[08:15] in the CIA that do have an interest. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. A lot of us do. Yeah. But he thought there was something Now the only thing he could get close to knowing anything about was something through the satellites or something I forget what he said and I don't want to mess it up. But he said there was no information that you know he could directly get to. Actually When when I first started at the CIA we were just this is going to date me. I'm actually I think I'm I'm older than I than I look. But we were just
[08:47] transitioning from typewriters to computers. And so What's a typewriter? I know right? We still had typewriters on our desks when I started. And um uh the files that we had were in these floor-to-ceiling like 20-ft high rotating files. Oh yeah. And everything was on 5 by 8 cards. And so you know you could sit there you could spend weeks months going through all the files
[09:19] the hard copy files but there was just nothing nothing to indicate that the CIA had any information at least that wasn't you know compartmentalized and and held in in special channels. Yeah. Now remember when I talked to you before you said um I think you were um trying to remember you were uh There was someone in a classroom that kind of recruited you or something. Oh it was my grad school professor. Yeah.
[09:51] Oh oh the professor. Yeah. You got it. And I I do remember that you said that you were shown like a blank map of the world and you did all all the countries on them. That's something you could do. That's right. Yeah. in itself. Right. I was a I was a map nut back in those days. Wow. So, it was easy. Plus you learned you learned Arabic? Arabic. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. speaking Greek and then they taught me Arabic before I was assigned to the Middle East.
[10:22] Pretty amazing. That you can do that. job. Great travel. I went to 72 countries. Wow. It was it was a a lot of fun. Really was. But I want to I want to dial back to your childhood and I want to hear can you talk about it was an encounter you had with your father and I'd like to I'd like for you to discuss what happened. Yeah. First I want to tell you about my father. So, my father my father was the kind of father I think everybody would want. Just a sweet sweet loving introverted guy, PhD in
[10:55] music. He was a long time public elementary school principal. And he had a Greek band on the weekends. Just a he was a wonderful dad. When I was in high school, my parents bought a diner in the next town north of us. I I grew up in New Castle, Pennsylvania, which is about an hour north of Pittsburgh. And the next town north was Sharon, Pennsylvania. And to get from New Castle to Sharon, it
[11:26] was about a 15-mile drive. But you had to go through Amish country. And of course the Amish don't use any electricity. So, it was very very dark. Always. Right? Yep. No electricity at all. You can really see the stars. So, it was a Friday night and my dad and I worked midnight shift on Friday nights. So, we got in the car around 10:15 to get there in plenty of time for our 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. shift.
[11:57] And um and we're driving in Amish country and there's this brilliant flash of white light. And then there's a second flash and a third flash. And he said, "What is that?" And then as soon as he said it, this orange trapezoid I guess I could do it like that. Lit up. I say orange, it it had
[12:28] round lights in the four corners of the trapezoid. So, you could see that they were lights. And they were strong enough to illuminate the rest of the the body of the whatever it was, the craft I'll call it. Mhm. And it just hung there in the sky and it was not terribly high up. I I'd say it was probably 1,500 ft, 2,000 ft. Mhm. So, we pulled off to the side of the road and we got out of the car and we're standing there and we're watching this
[12:59] thing just hover. And it's not making any sound at all. Nothing. It's just completely silent. Mhm. A guy pulls up behind us, gets out of the car and he says, "What the heck is that?" And my dad said, "I don't know." And then it went like that at at this fantastic speed. Like it went directly away from us. But at a at a speed that was like incalculable.
[13:30] And we just stood there looking up into the you know, night sky thinking, "Is it going to come back? Is it you know, some kind of experimental jet?" I mean I I had never in my life seen anything like it and neither had he. So, we get back in the car. We start driving again and we're silent. Huh? And then I said to I said to him, "So, should we call somebody? Should we like call the cops or something?"
[14:01] And he said, "And tell them what? We saw a flying saucer and it flew away? He said they're going to think we're nuts." Yeah. So, we didn't tell anybody until the next day. We went home after the end of the shift and we told my mom. She said, "Oh, come on." And my dad said, "I'm telling you we saw a UFO." And I've been thinking I was I was 17 years old and I'm 60 now and I still think about it all the time. Yeah. You know, some it affects everyone
[14:33] differently. You know, I've I've talked to people that say, "Oh, yeah, that happened." And you know, no crazy sighting too. And like, "Oh, yeah, that happened." And you know, "What's for dinner?" Yeah. Right. But other people their shoulders like, "Ah, I don't I don't know what it is." Yeah, and that's why I'm here. And I I have to tell you, you know, I had my sighting in California and it was something that baffled me. If I had a camera, I might have not thought to take a picture. And I was in a hot tub and the thing that the and there was no bubbles and it
[15:05] there was no sound and that's what freaked me out the most. This thing was actually moving at a steady pace and there was absolutely no sound and I just couldn't understand why there was no sound. Now, I have to and I called the cops. And I got ridiculed. You know, See? Exactly. Exactly. You know, Jimmy Carter when he was governor of Georgia, he saw one. And he called the cops and he filed a report saying that it hovered in the air, it was buzzing.
[15:35] And they ridiculed him. And then they released the report during the 1976 presidential campaign just as a way to mock him and make him sound like he was crazy. Yeah. Well, I think they may have explained what that is. There was some type of failed launch or something. But it's possible it's possible and I I don't but I think even the grandson agreed to it. You know, I mean there was something I watched. But still there's so many more examples of people that have seen these
[16:06] things and the ridicule factor is a lot less today than it was. I'm sure you're aware of when the Pentagon you know, the 2000 2017 when the article came out in the New York Times with the videos and all that that kind of changed the ridicule factor Yes. A lot of people were convinced on the one hand or silenced on the other. Yeah. You know, before we started the show too, you and I were talking about something something else.
[16:37] When I was a kid, I had a lot of family here in the Washington area. And so, when I was a kid, we used to come down to Washington for summer vacations and stay with our relatives. Well, my dad's cousin who was my godfather owned a a very prominent steakhouse in Old Town, Alexandria, Virginia. And he would get you know, senators and congressmen and bankers and politicians you know, from the city. It it was it was sort of a crossroads for
[17:08] movers and shakers in Washington. And his son who worked there as as a manager of the restaurant had a friend who was there one day when when I was there and he happened to be an F-14 pilot. So, I'm thinking this is 19 say 77 or 78. And um and he told us this story. He just volunteered this story that
[17:39] he was based at Langley Air Force Base in Norfolk, Virginia. Mhm. And he said all of the pilots had seen these phenomena, whatever they were. In fact, he had seen one. He followed it for a while and it went down into the water. It stayed down there for a while and then it came back up. And he said he was so rattled that when he landed and reported it to his superiors and some of the other pilots, the other pilots have said, "Oh,
[18:12] I've seen that. I've seen where they go down into the water and come back up." And he said he filed his his flight report and nobody ever bothered to you know, ask him follow-up questions, to question you know, "Was that really what you saw or could it have been something else?" They just accepted it. Like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, everybody sees those. They go down in the water, they come up." And I remember he said that it was almost like the thing was drinking. It went down into the water on purpose and stayed down there and then came back
[18:44] up. Did you describe a shape of any kind? Do you remember? He said that that was a cylinder. Like a yeah, like a like a cigar is what I said. There's a lot of people describing describing cigar shape you know, UFOs and you know, I mean but that's the first one I've heard of a cigar shape in the water. But you know, in and out of the water USO UFO USO, whatever you want to call that one. But fascinating. Um May I ask you a question? Yeah. I
[19:15] don't know if you happened to see on Netflix, it was like Unsolved Mysteries or it was one of these one of these shows that Netflix just posted in the last year. And there was a very detailed episode about these sightings over Lake Michigan. Yes. Yes. What do you make of that? Because almost all of the witnesses were employees of the National Weather Service. And not only did they see them in the sky, but they followed them on the radar. That's right.
[19:47] went down into the water. What what do you make of that? I think there's really something to that and that that uh the main person on that in that uh episode was on my show. And uh like a year before he told me that he was uh they had already filmed that episode for Netflix. But I but uh anyway, there's he has a a total science mind and was absolutely baffled by what he was seeing there. So, yeah, there was
[20:17] really something to that and the same thing, you know, Lake Michigan, another big body of water. And interestingly, they said that where the lake had frozen, they avoided that part. They went over the the water that hadn't frozen and then down into the water. Yeah. Yeah. Which was interesting to That is a great a great that that night was a great great event that you really don't hear a lot about. Matter of fact, I until you just brought it up, I basically haven't thought about that one
[20:47] for for quite a while. I was fascinated because it it lasted for hours. Mhm. And it wasn't just, you know, one guy who may have been too tired while he was, you know, on the job in the middle of the night. It was like a dozen different people and they all watched it unfold on the radar as well. Right. Right. Yeah, that's a that's a real good one. I I have reached out to and I can't think of his name right off the bat. I've reached out to him again after that aired. I'd like to talk to him again about that, you know, what he I think he
[21:19] received a lot of flak for that. I do believe he did. In fact, he quit his job. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Which is really sad, you know, there's a lot of these uh situations you hear about things like that. There was a situation called JAL. I can't think of the name. It was a Japanese airline cargo uh back um I'm going to get the whole thing. I haven't looked into that for quite a while, but basically, the pilot kept seeing this large thing the size of like a battleship up in the sky like the
[21:50] shape of a walnut. It was following them and it was on radar and they saw it on a ground radar. He ended up getting a desk job after that. You know, but eventually, enough people, you know, pulled for him and got him back into flying again. But, you know, you can't it's it's hard when you report these things with someone like him. It is. It's hard when you report them. Yeah. Yeah. Uh you know, we there's so many things I'd like to talk to you about, but uh also, I do want to just touch on the whistleblowing part that you did uh at some point here in the
[22:23] conversation. Again, that the the full interview that we did about that is going to be linked at the very end of the show and down I can put it also in the show notes as well. But um I want to talk a little bit about drones because that's it's kind of still such a mystery. I mean, I'm I'm still kind of baffled by it and I'm I don't really know what I think about the explanations I keep hearing out there and wonder what you thought about that. You know, at first I I was
[22:56] well, at first I just assumed it was a defense department exercise of some sort. And I have a friend who happens to be a New Jersey state trooper. He said that they were working under the impression that there was a DOE or DOD cargo that went missing. That perhaps it was nuclear, perhaps it was maybe a weapon of some sort or a missile and the convoy, you know, lost the the
[23:28] 18-wheeler. I don't know. He said that's what he thought it was. That's what he had been told it was. But then there was a there was a piece a segment on 60 Minutes just a couple of weeks ago or a week ago maybe where they interviewed uh these uh the the current and the former commanding generals from uh Oh, it was I think it was Langley actually. Mhm. Langley Air Force Base.
[23:58] Right. Right. Yes. And they said that you know, people think we can just shoot these things down, but they're so small that you can't use a a fighter jet to shoot something that is so small and is guided by hand. So, their their conclusions were that they were um hostile, uh likely Chinese. Mhm. Uh there happened to be a Chinese
[24:29] ship off the coast of of New Jersey at least for a little while while these things were flying around. And he said, "We we have to come up with a better system to protect ourselves. We can protect ourselves against incoming ICBMs, for example, Yeah. but we can't protect ourselves against drones." Right. And the but the the thing of it is is that it's worldwide, too. That's another real puzzle. Yeah. You know, and these things are happening
[25:00] like every year around the same time it was happening as well over the last several years. It was an event in Colorado a few years ago that was baffling to everyone out there. I don't know if you heard about that. But um but then there's these really large size drones and they're going for Yeah. you know, uh for extended amounts of time, you know, so it's it's just yeah, it's still it's still I I just don't know if, you know, the FAA said they had no idea what it is and then
[25:31] they said, "Oh, yes, we do know." You know, which to me sounds like there's some type of cover? Something Something's not adding up. Yeah. You know, it it it it seems to me and I I don't have any inside information here, but if this were deemed to be either hostile or unknown in origin, you would think that the government would want the public to shoot them down.
[26:02] Mhm. Right? If if somebody said to me, "Hey, there are these drones flying around. We don't They could be Russian, they could be Chinese, they could be we don't know what the heck they are, but they're not ours. We promise they're not ours." And one's flying over my house, I'm perfectly happy to take a shot at it. So, why didn't they say that? Right. I don't I don't get it. So, um I just I I want to apologize to everyone over in the chat. I'm sorry I haven't even peeked in to see what if we have any questions up there. Uh and this
[26:32] uh Chris makes a kind of an interesting point. Why would they question. not use drones to take the drones out? Yeah, that's a good question. Um the way it was explained to me is that all of our drones that are big enough to carry um uh missiles are deployed overseas. All of them. And so, we just don't have them close enough to New Jersey to be able to uh to send them there and clean out the sky. Yeah. Yeah, but they were they were also in Germany, they were in Australia. I mean,
[27:05] it was just really, really weird. And uh yeah, you can't someone just posted here, you can't really shoot them inside city limits. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. You can't. Yeah. You'll end up getting, you know, arrested and fined. Yep. And I have to show you something. I was uh I happened to get off a cruise and uh was in Myrtle Beach just to check out properties there. Not interested, little honky-tonk for me, but Yeah. no offense to anyone listening in
[27:35] Myrtle Beach. But anyway, um they got out of the car and the real estate agent said uh "Well, if you look up there, there's a Chinese balloon." And I said, "What?" Oh my god. I said, "That looks just like it." And he said, "No, that is the Chinese balloon." And then we watched the whole thing happen. Oh my god, that is it's being shot down. Right. Right. It happened right when I got out of the car. I mean, Oh my god. What are the odds? The last I knew I was on a cruise and the last I knew it was
[28:06] over the Midwest somewhere and I Right. and stepped out of the car in Myrtle Beach and there it was. So, yeah. That's great. Yeah. So, I mean, there's a situation right there. That was probably, you know, you mentioned it could be China the the drones and I did a show with uh Nick Pope and Mark D'Antonio, I believe. I don't know, maybe a few months ago and also some a witness from New Jersey that uh witnessed these drones in her her backyard and some of them were really big and
[28:36] anyway, um and the the thing I just s- you know, it was just a guess, but I said maybe these are Chinese, you know, maybe they're that's a possibility, isn't And I keep hearing that. So, I don't know if we know any more about that now than we knew then. But, it's still a possibility. I think it's a possibility. Yeah. And like you mentioned the 60 Minutes, I saw that and they said, you know, they can't see where they come from or where they go to. That's right.
[29:09] I just wonder um if why do we why don't we have that technology? Seems like we have technology for all kinds of things. and another thing, have you ever seen the YouTube video of of a police drone in Santiago, Chile? Where there's this huge crowd of protesters and this drone is hovering above the the crowd and hundreds of people in the crowd start start beaming this uh they have these laser pointers Oh, yeah. at the drone and it completely confuses the drone and shorts it out and it just crashes. Oh my
[29:42] god. erupts in cheers. Wow. A friend of mine at the Pentagon said, "Oh, yeah, that's that's the vulnerability of drones. They're susceptible to um short-circuiting when they're exposed to uh to laser beams." Wow. So, just a a laser pointer that you buy for five bucks, if you shine it, you know, long enough, you're going to take the drone down. Yeah. There was uh someone sent me uh just a couple of days ago a video of a drone uh that this was
[30:14] recent in recent days, and this guy got really good footage of this thing, and it was triangular-shaped, and it was big. Uh you know, it looked like it could be this I don't know how high up in the sky it was, and if I can find it, I will put it in the show notes eventually, but um but anyway, um what I'm getting at is it's still there's still people talking about like it's still ongoing. It's not like it's completely stopped. I mean, it's slowed way down, but I don't hear anything from New Jersey at this point.
[30:45] Mhm. And you know, there were people suggesting that it might have to do with uh some type of warhead that was missing or but the uh the way that was contradicted was that there's other ways of being able to detect any radiation. Yeah, that's that's true. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, than sending up 500 drones to look for the thing. Yeah. So, you know of that. I mean, yeah, right. Right. So, I would like to talk a little bit, you know, off the subject just a little bit because, you
[31:16] know, uh back when we talked the last time, you went through kind of a living hell your life is much better today, but uh you you wanted to do the right thing, and as so often happens, you know, we try to do the right thing, and we all catch hell, and you really caught hell. You spent 23 months in prison. I did. I did. And I'm utterly unrepentant, and would do it again today if I had the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I'm sure there would
[31:48] probably be some things you would do a little differently. Yeah, I there there's one thing I would do differently, and this is the advice that I give every would-be whistleblower who asks for my advice. And I'm going to tell you what it is before you say it. Get a lawyer first. There it is. Get a lawyer first, and make sure that when you blow the whistle, that lawyer is sitting next to you. Yes. Mhm. I uh I ended up having to be reactive because I hired the lawyer after I blew
[32:18] the whistle. I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program. And, you know, the funny thing is, I I did this in an interview with ABC News in December of 2007. Um the FBI investigated me from December of 2007 to December 2008, and they determined that I had not committed a crime because torture is illegal, and it is a felony in this country to classify a criminal act. Which makes sense. So, no charges. Um three weeks later, Barack Obama
[32:50] becomes president, and he names John Brennan, the Deputy National Security Advisor for Counterterrorism. John and I hated each other for years. And John was one of the godfathers of the torture program. And so, he asked the Attorney General to secretly reopen the case against me. I had no idea that for the next three years my phones were tapped, my emails were being intercepted, and uh and teams of
[33:21] FBI agents were surveilling me. And then finally in uh in January of 2012, I was arrested and charged with five felonies, including three counts of espionage. Now, espionage can be a death penalty That's right. Yes. Well, I hadn't committed espionage. Giving an interview to ABC News and having lunch with the New York Times is not espionage. And finally, they dropped the espionage charges, but I ended up taking a plea to a a lesser
[33:51] charge. I actually had I I had refused the plea, and I said, "No, I want to go to trial." And my my lead attorney was so angry with me. He got right in my face, and he said, "You know what your problem is? Your problem is you think this is about justice, and it's not about justice. It's about mitigating damage. Take the deal." So, I was looking at 45 years. Wow. Realistically, if I'd been convicted, I was looking at 12 to 18 years, and they
[34:23] were offering 23 months. And I I ended up reading an article published by ProPublica, and they they had done this research uh this research study in which they found that the government wins 98.2% of its cases. Really? So, I took the deal. I had five kids at home at the time. What am I going to do? So, I took the deal. Yeah. Wow. And uh I remember you told me what
[34:54] that was like and how you were prepared yourself for it. And I I just got to ask you this, what's the best thing that you got out of prison? You know, it's going to sound kind of nuts, but um I used my CIA training to keep myself safe in prison. And as part of that training, I made what I call in my second book, um strategic alliances.
[35:24] And I ended up being adopted by uh the Italians. And I mean Italians named Gambino, Bonanno, Lucchese, Genovese. You get the idea. Mhm. And um once word got around that I was with the Italians, it was hands-off. Mhm. So, I went in there with my head held high. Um
[35:55] kept myself safe to the point where people were actually deferential to me. Mhm. And I treated people with respect. Yeah. The the big the big um the big divisions in prison are uh along racial lines. Mhm. Right? They're in the TV room, this TV is just for the blacks, this TV is just for the whites, this TV is just for the Hispanics.
[36:27] And in the cafeteria, all the blacks sit here, all the the Hispanics sit here, and over here there are what are called the good white guys, which are the Aryans and the Italians, and the bad white guys, who are the pedophiles and the rats. Wow. And I you know, with the exception of the pedophiles and the rats, I I didn't respect those uh those racial divisions. So, I had friends who were black and friends who were Hispanic, and you treat people with respect, and they treat you with respect
[36:59] in return. Sure. And so, I had a very easy time of it. Mhm. Crazy as it might sound. Yeah. Yeah, I remember, you know, you're talking a bit about this, and uh did Was there ever any time that people would, you know, find out, "Oh, you know, CIA," you know, that type of thing, and and have That's a great question. That's a great question, and I'll tell you what happened. Um I reported to prison on a Thursday. The previous Sunday,
[37:31] there was an article about me on the front page of the New York Times, and it said that I was going to be assigned to the to the federal prison at Loretto, Pennsylvania. There was an Italian guy there uh who for whatever reason, just to be a good guy, went to every single one of the Italians and said, "Listen, there's a CIA guy coming here, and you need to know the difference between an FBI and a CIA. FBI,
[38:02] they're cops and rats. CIA, protect us from the Muslims." This is what he told them. Yeah. And so, as soon as I arrived, they welcomed me. I was invited I gained 35 lbs in prison because I they had a crooked guard on on the payroll, and he would he would smuggle in, you know, pork loin and white wine for the Marsala sauce, and mushrooms, and tomatoes, and pasta, and we feasted every single night. But I I
[38:33] went to I ate with the Italians in the cafeteria. We had dinners in in their their cells in the evenings. We went to I went to all of their parties, their birthday celebrations. I even went to the mafia Super Bowl party of all things. They were great. Wow. the funny thing is, there's kind of a postscript to this. So, I This this guy, he became my best friend in the prison, and still is one of my best friends today. We talk all
[39:04] the time. So, it's about out? He's out. Yeah, good. Um well, that's what the story's about. He had gotten triple life without parole for a first-time nonviolent drug offense. And so, Congress passed the um the uh Second Chance Act, I think is what it was called, and I'm I'm reading the paper I mean, I'm sitting in his cell, and I'm reading the paper, and I said, "Buddy, have you read this article?" And he said, "No." I said,
[39:34] "This is about you. It's saying that you're eligible for this new federal program." And he said, "I'm not I'm not smart enough to to even figure out how to do something like that." I said, "I'll write the appeal." So, I wrote his appeal. I sent it to the Justice Department, and I was released from the prison just a couple of weeks later. I got out in February. His mother calls me in August, and she's crying. And I said,
[40:05] "Oh my god, what happened to Mark?" And she said, "No, no, it's good news. They're letting him go." And I said, "They're letting him go?" And she said, "The appeal you wrote, he won." Wow. like, "Oh my god." He told me when he got out that that he owes that that he owes me his life. And I said, "Nonsense. I said, you got screwed. And all you needed was was for things to come together at the right time
[40:35] for the Justice Department to to acknowledge that you got screwed." And as funny as it sounds, he applied for a real estate license. And if you're a convicted felon, you can't have a real estate license. So, he wrote to the governor, and he said, "Listen, I got screwed, and Obama gave me a commutation, and I'm a good guy, and you know, non-violent, and all this stuff. Can I have a real estate license?" And the governor gave it to him. And now he is the number one selling real estate
[41:06] agent at the Jersey Shore. Isn't that great? Lives in a a stunning house, tons of friends. He's just an awesome guy. awesome. That's so awesome. I love to hear things like that. Yeah, good guy. Unbelievable. You know, I mean, the timing, like you said, but if you did not know him, and if you did not read that, he might still be there today. You know, there were eight people in his conspiracy. He was the only one who left the
[41:37] conspiracy. He said, "This drug thing is not for me. I quit." And he he quit. He was the only one that did. And everybody got arrested by the Drug Enforcement Administration, and they offered everybody deals. And he said, "I'm not a rat. I can't rat people out." And so, he didn't take the deal, not knowing that everybody else took the deal. So, the other seven guys got five and a half years, and he got triple life without parole.
[42:09] Yeah. My god, you must you just must feel like your life is totally over. I bet he's I bet he's extremely grateful every day. It's it's a new life, and I'm so happy for him. Yeah, great story. He didn't deserve that treatment. Right. Well, that's that's really Thank you so much for sharing all this with us. Now, we're going to try to get back to the UFO topic somehow. And but this is all really fascinating. So, I I just someone sent me a um a a
[42:41] friend of basically the show here, and also a friend mutual friend of Chris um Ah. Ledo. Yeah. Uh he sent me this thing about this guy talking about government secrets, and it had to do with Neil deGrasse Tyson and two other people. They're in an interview, and the guy basically said that, "Hey, uh the government leaks things all the time. That's how they get funding." So, and and so then the question came
[43:12] up, "Well, why aren't they leaking about the crash retrievals or the UFOs or things like that?" So, I guess I have to ask you, what is your thoughts about uh that whole thing? I I actually have thought about that. And you know, having been in the CIA for 15 years, and and having been read into special compartmented programs, I can only conclude that these things are so compartmentalized, so stovepiped, that there are too few people who actually
[43:42] are read into the program to leak it. You know, this is this is how torture didn't leak for so long. In the in the beginning, there were only 16 people in the entire federal government who knew about the torture program. Well, you know, later on it was it was hundreds of people. There were dozens that were actually carrying out the torture. That's really I mean, I just it just hit me. That's so baffling that there's that few people. You know, I mentioned earlier about meeting with the
[44:13] two gentlemen, retired FBI and retired CIA. And we we got into 9/11, you know, talking to the FBI, and he talked about, "Yes, everything is stovepiped, and that's why the information was protected, and not enough people There's not enough connections." That's a very nice way to put it. The the truth is that the CIA and the FBI have hated each other since 1947, when the CIA was created. And so,
[44:45] the CIA knew that the hijackers were in were in the United States, and didn't tell the FBI because the CIA wanted to make a run at them and try to recruit them. The FBI knew that there were hijackers who were trying to get into the United States, but didn't tell the CIA that they knew the identities of the hijackers. And so, because because they refused to cooperate, to the point where the CIA and FBI computer systems were not even
[45:17] compatible, Mhm. that's why 9/11 happened. Yeah. And you came in right about that time, right? Oh, no, I was already I was already a senior officer by 9/11. Now, I thought I thought you mentioned in the interview that we did that they were like getting ready to throw money into all types anything. After 9/11 After 9/11. After 9/11. I got it. Yeah. Yeah, I I had a I had a an idea for an operation just a couple of weeks after 9/11, a counterterrorism operation. So, I went
[45:48] up to the director of the Counterterrorism Center, Ambassador Cofer Black, and I said, "Cofer, I I've got a I've got an operation that I want to pass by you." And he put up his hands, and he said, "Whatever it is, just do it. I have so much money, I can't possibly spend it all." And so, I was on the next plane. That's amazing. That's amazing. But wow. Um so, do you think um this is just from being, you know, involved I know that you there
[46:19] was no UFO you know, I know the CIA is is like foreign, you know, this it's all foreign. Foreign intelligence. Um and then FBI is, you know, American. Domestic uh yeah. Right. But um um there wouldn't be any case where the CIA would be involved with any type of Well, it's possible. this No, I'm going to run a scenario by you. Like to say if perhaps, like David Grusch mentioned, do
[46:50] you think there is crashed uh UFOs reverse engineering? Say that would be it. That would be it. Yeah. If if they could develop something that could be dangerous to us somehow. Yeah, the CIA would never have the lead on something like that. DARPA would have the lead. Right. They would bring in CIA and maybe one or two other agencies, probably DOD agencies, to come in and reverse engineer something like that. But yeah, the the CIA would never have the uh
[47:21] would never have the lead. I used to work for this Deputy Director of the CIA, um good guy, but he always used to have this mantra. He would always say, "The job of the CIA is to recruit spies to steal secrets." And I used to think, "Yeah, that's technically true, but we also, you know, fly around the world and murder people and overthrow governments, and you know, it's not just recruiting spies to steal secrets, although I get the sentiment."
[47:54] Yeah. I mean, I can't even understand the how something like that works, you know, where that who decides what is you know, we have to watch this country, we have to watch that country, this person may take over, that may fall, you know, we have to get someone in there, and you know, I mean, who can figure all this stuff out with such a crazy world? that's why it fails so often. Yeah. And and you know, one of the one of the downsides to uh
[48:24] downsides to doing proactive um operations like that, they're called covert action programs, uh is that and I think this is probably human nature, but the CIA always always underestimates the level of blowback. Blowback are the unintended consequences for carrying out an operation. So, for example, for example, um I was the note taker in a Principals Committee meeting the night before we
[48:55] invaded Iraq. And prince The principals are the president, the vice president, secretary of state, secretary of defense, national security advisor, director of the CIA, and the um CENTCOM, the commander-in-chief of Central Command. So, um my job was to sit silently behind the CIA director and just take notes. One of the senior officials from the from the White House said at the end of the meeting,
[49:26] like he couldn't wait for tomorrow cuz tomorrow we're going to invade Iraq. And he said, "As soon as we cross that border, they're going to throw flowers at us." And I said to the director afterwards, "Do these people know nothing about the Middle East? Do they know nothing about history? Mhm. The Iraqis are going to see us as foreign invaders and occupiers. They're going to throw bombs, not flowers." And sure enough,
[49:57] Really? bombs. Oh, god. and then we're mired in a in a war for, you know, more than a decade. Wow. Another war. Well, this is Jack who I was just talking about, a mutual friend of Chris Lidos. So, here's the question here and I have to read this out because of the audio part of the show. Considering your experience as a whistleblower and challenges you faced, what advice would you give to individuals who possess credible information about UAPs and who are considering coming forward? Good
[50:28] question, Jack. That's a that's a very good question and it's an important question. So, I I would highly recommend that you consult with an attorney who specializes in whistleblower rights. There are a bunch of them here in Washington. They may be a little bit harder to find outside of Washington. But, um, you need somebody who who's going to understand where you're coming from and is going to protect your your rights and and also also protect you from overstepping so
[51:01] that, you know, the the FBI can't come in and ruin your life or the Defense Department or the CIA or who whoever else. So, absolutely consult an attorney before you say anything at all publicly and make sure that the attorney is there when you're making the revelation. You'll never, ever regret doing that. Now, I believe David Grusch went about it the right way as far as I know. I don't know how much you know about that. Yeah. Well, David Grusch also spoke to the congressional committees. Is that what
[51:33] you're talking about? Yes. That That is another way to protect yourself. Yes. Is you you reach out to the people who are supposed to have oversight authority over this kind of thing. So, if you're not getting any satisfaction or you can't, you know, get people to take you seriously, reach out to the House and Senate Armed Services Committees. They'll take you seriously. Mhm. I think he went through all the steps, the proper steps, but Yes, he did. He went to the Inspector General, he went to the General Counsel,
[52:04] and nobody would listen to him. I see. Wow. Yeah. Um, so here's a another question here for you from Tony. In light of what you went through, would you recommend a career in the CIA? As crazy as it might sound, I would have to say yes. Wow. And I'll tell you why. I loved every minute that I was in the CIA. I went to 72 countries. I met with
[52:36] kings and presidents and prime ministers. I did the coolest stuff you could imagine that I have to keep secret until I, you know, am laid in my grave. And one of the things that an old-timer told me that is apropos of this question is once you get to around the 10-year mark in your career, you're going to realize that you've been promoted into a position of authority. And for a lot of people, their their
[53:06] careers really take off at year 10. There are a lot of things that I don't like about the CIA. There are a lot of things I want to see changed. But really, look, I'm a realist. The only way you can change them is from inside. Mhm. And so, keep your moral scruples about you. You know, know right from wrong in your gut when you go in cuz they're not going to teach you right from wrong. You have to know it yourself. Mhm. And have a great career.
[53:37] Wow. Wow, that's really something. So, I remember, I believe that you you watched what you thought was a war crime and you Yeah. right away crime. Yeah. Yeah. And in more ways than more ways than the waterboarding. And you know how the waterboarding you basically works is we're all afraid of drowning. You know what I mean? That's really what it boils down to. And in the case of Abu Zubaydah, they actually did drown him. And his heart stopped and they had to revive him just so that he could be tortured more.
[54:08] Yeah. God. It's sick. And of course, you know, when torture is not really that good at people will say anything to stop it, basically. I mean, how effective is torture really? I mean, have they done How It's not and that's been that has been conclusively proven by both the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association. It just simply doesn't work. Mhm. Now, you just mentioned his name. That was someone you knew very well.
[54:40] Right? The one they revived. How do you say his name again? Abu Zubaydah. Yeah. I captured Abu Zubaydah. Mhm. And I've gone on record for the last 10 years saying that Abu Zubaydah should be released from Guantanamo immediately and allowed to uh, to resettle in a third country. We have never charged him with a crime. And in fact, the information that uh,
[55:10] that we used to uh, to kidnap him and torture him was faulty. He was not the number three in Al-Qaeda. In fact, he had never even joined Al-Qaeda. So, what we thought, you know, was conclusive evidence of his guilt of terrorism, was just a lie. Just like someone being falsely charged with murder. Yeah, exactly. Wow, that's amazing.
[55:41] Yeah, just like murder. And you know, since 1976 when the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court, more than 200 people who had been on death row have been released because DNA evidence has conclusively proven them to be innocent. Mhm. 200 people Yeah. were scheduled to be executed that were completely innocent. It's not acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way to I mean, someday we may have that ability to really really know the truth what when
[56:13] someone is telling it. I don't even know if that would affect our rights or whatever and I don't even know, you know, if that could even work eventually. But, I want to thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Can you please talk a little bit about the YouTube channel you have? Oh, yeah, thank you. Well, I do a couple of different things. I've got I've got a podcast that's on YouTube called Deep Focus with John Kiriakou. I try to interview as many relevant newsmakers as I can. And and I've got a show called CIA
[56:43] Declassified that runs on an online platform called Unified Television. U N I F Y D, Unified Television. And what we do is we look at historic events like the overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953, the overthrow of the Chilean government in '73, uh, MKUltra, UFOs, uh, and we try to use declassified CIA documents to shed light on these on
[57:16] these issues. Wow. Yeah, it's a fun show. We're we're in season two already. And again, it's it's called CIA Declassified and it's at Unified Television. U N I F Y D. Wow, great. Well, I I just have to mention this. The release of the recent re-release of I and I don't think it's that many more documents of the JFK Right. Uh, I just wondered what you thought of that. I know they were unredacted and I know some social security numbers showed
[57:46] up from some people who are still living. they identified some CIA sources. There were two blockbuster um, uh, memos that were released in that tranche. And there are still several thousand pages that that are due to be released. Right. two big things were um, uh, James Angleton, the Deputy Director of the CIA for Counterintelligence, ordered the CIA in 1963 to recruit Lee Harvey Oswald as a
[58:18] source. People have long believed that that was the case. The CIA always denied it and now we've learned that they've been lying for 62 years. So, this is like it seems like that's a bombshell. That is a bombshell. There's another bombshell. There was a an Army intelligence officer named Underhill, um, who had high-level CIA friends. These friends, he alleged that these friends told him that they had been responsible
[58:50] for killing Kennedy. In a panic, he got in the car and drove to his mother's house in New Jersey and told her. She later said that he was very upset when he told her. He drove back to Washington and then was found dead in his apartment of a gunshot wound. They said they ruled it a suicide, but the gunshot wound was to the back of his head. Typically doesn't happen. Uh, let's see. Someone wants
[59:21] Sorry, go right ahead. Well, it's a question for you, but uh, Yeah, Nick, thank you for that. That's that I'm starting this hundred uh, hundred city year-long round-the-world speaking I've already done speeches in Belfast, Dublin, and Manchester. I'm going back to Scotland and Northern England in a couple of weeks. Um but we're going to be here in the United States and in Canada and then we go to Australia and New Zealand, then Continental Europe, the Persian Gulf,
[59:53] and East Asia. You can find information at tigerslanestudio.com. John, I'm going to ask you if you would take the time to email me all these links so I can put them in the show notes for everybody to see. I sure will. And again, for everyone that's watching right now this YouTube um at the very end you'll see the video pop up and that will be the interview that you and I did back in 2007. Yeah. Well, it's been a real pleasure, John.
[1:00:24] As always, it's always Thank you, Martin. great to talk to you and I again, I I think you're a hero for doing Oh, thank you. I think um it needed to be done and you know, because uh who knows where how carried away that could have gotten. Yeah, thank you. And uh I'm I'm so- sorry you had to suffer for it, but I'm glad you're doing well now. Thanks so much. It's good to see you again. It's been a long time. All right. So, everyone, next week I'm going to be in I will be uh in
[1:00:54] California leaving tomorrow and going to be at the conference and also our show on next Tuesday is with Professor Ted Peters and he is a professor who speaks on the UFO topic in summer courses at Berkeley. So, thanks everyone and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.