In Confidence: A Private Conversation with John Kiriakou

[00:00] I joined the CIA counterterrorism's 17 November task force. Well, then I got access to literally all the files. The truth is always more complicated than people want you to think. We're talking about people with PhDs in mathematics. 2,000 Taliban soldiers gave up on MAS to the Northern Alliance. Northern Alliance leadership called us CIA. And the CIA said [music] to put them in

[00:31] container trucks and send them out to the desert. 2,000 [snorts] people. 14 survived. One of the survivors told us that when they opened the trucks, [music] the bodies fell out like sardines from a can. >> Welcome to Inconidence with John Keryako. So, John, thank you so much for being with us. >> Thank you very much. I want to thank everybody for for doing this as well. Um, Covert Action Magazine has become very very important to me. Um,

[01:04] many of you know, I I would assume most of you know that I spent 15 years at the CIA. Um, I'm not the typical CIA officer, former CIA officer. Um, I uh had serious disagreements with the CIA much like um much like um well really any any whistleblower in national security whether it's NSA, CIA, FBI, even state and DoD. But but much like Philip Ag did, the founder of the

[01:34] magazine, the co-founder with Lou Wolf of the magazine, um Philip Ag is still taught at the CIA uh as a as a dangerous um insider threat. I was told about 6 months ago that in a new security briefing at the CIA, uh there's a slide with my face on it now uh that's entitled the insider threat. I actually laughed when I heard that, but you know what are you gonna do? Thank you, Josh. That that was my reaction,

[02:05] too. Um, the truth of the matter is that without whistleblowers like Philip Ay, um, we wouldn't know what the government was doing in our name. And that's why we we need whistleblowers. There have been a lot since Philip Ay and Dan Ellberg. I'm proud to say that Dan Osberg became a very close friend. Um, very much a mentor to me, a supporter of mine. He wrote to me regularly when I was in prison. Um, he

[08:52] before sending them to his own editors. That should have been front page news and it wasn't. The other thing he found was there was some young independent journalist, not really employed by anybody, making $300, $400 per article. He actually developed some information that the CIA didn't want to be made public. And so he wrote to them and

[09:22] said, "I'm going to publish this information." And I was wondering if you had a comment. The comment was, "So help us, God. If you publish this information, you will never be invited to the Christmas party ever again, and we will never answer any of your questions." And so he killed his own article. You've all heard of operation mockingb bird, right? Where the CIA was recruiting journalists and supposedly the church committee found uh

[09:55] found out that this was happening and said that it was a violation of US law and the CIA had to stop recruiting journalists. They don't need to record to recruit journalists. They don't need to. all they do is threaten them with no invitation to the Christmas party and no future uh off therecord interviews. Well, when all of the major print outlets zero out their budgets for investigative journalism, all you can do is ask the CIA for

[10:28] information, kind of gist it a little bit, put your name up at the top, and release it as an original article. That doesn't happen here. That'll never happen here. What you have at Covert Action Magazine is independent journalism and it's independent original journalism. That's why we're here. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I wanted to say it's so fascinating how many people actually know the legacy and and

[11:00] the organization Covert Action itself. And I I'm just curious, you know, talking about Philip AG, how do you see your you continuing that role with his legacy because it's it's so simil this this you're the whistleblower of this generation, you know, and so it's like continuing who's next, what's, you know, it's fascinating. So, how do you see yourself in that in that vein? I'm

[11:30] proud to be associated with with Philip Agy. And I'll tell you a funny thing. I had read Philip Agi before I joined the CIA. I knew I knew the story and I had read his books. I actually have them on the bookshelf behind me and I have one by Lou Wolf behind me. And um I remember getting a briefing, a security briefing at the CIA. It was my first week on the job and they talked about their words the traitor Philip Ag. Um, the traitor Philip Ag

[12:01] uh his revelations led to the death of the CIA station chief in Athens, Richard Welch. Well, that I knew that wasn't true. There was a lawsuit about that very issue which the AG family won. I knew that it was a lie that Philip AG's revelations led to anybody's death. And so I went up to the to the lecturer afterwards. I said, you know, that's that's really not true that Philip Ay led to Richard Welch's death. I mean,

[12:32] it's been reported in every paper in America. And he said, "Oh, you don't know the inside story, kid. You don't know what really happened." And I thought, "Yeah, I I know what happened." years later, I'm going to say seven and a half years later, I joined the um CIA counterterrorism's 17 November task force. This was a unit that was set up to investigate the assassination of Richard Welch, the CIA

[13:03] station chief in Athens, and to try to find his killers and bring them to justice. Well, then I got access to literally all the files. all of them going back to, you know, the night that Dick Welch was killed. And the truth of the matter is that the CIA was actually responsible for the leak that resulted in uh Dick Welch's death. Um there had been a

[13:33] previous CIA station chief whose um identity was revealed. It was picked up by the Greek press and they identified the house where he was living. They also identified the house of the US defense attaches. So what did the CIA do? Literally nothing. Every CIA station chief who cycled through Athens lived in the same house. So everybody in Athens knew, oh that's the CIA station chief's

[14:05] house. That's the US defense attaches house. That's how they knew how to find Dick Welch. There was an article in the paper saying Richard Welch is the newest American Embassy employee. He loves Greece and he loves ancient Greece and he loves archaeology. Well, everybody knew he speaks Greek and he lives in that house because that's the station chief's house. He was killed on December 23rd, 1975. The US defense attaches was killed 5

[14:36] years later coming out of his house which everybody knew was the defense intelligence agency house and then 5 years after him the next defense attaches was killed in a bomb so big that they found his head on the roof of the next door neighbor's house and then they blamed Philip Agi. So, I knew what the truth was and I knew and the truth is always more complicated than people want you to think, but uh but it was it was clear that they were

[15:07] just looking for a scapegoat because they didn't want to point the finger at themselves. That's what it was all about. That's fascinating and it what a wonderful legacy to continue and that you have his books and Lou Wolf is with us tonight, one of the original founders. So, it's always great to have you with us, Lou. Now, before we go deeper into this conversation, if anyone in the room wants to share what brought you here tonight, why why do you care

[15:38] about these issues? We would love to hear if anyone wants to raise their hand and share. Uh the the you can just unmute I think ML if you're looking for where how to raise your hand, it's the bottom left hand corner. You just press that microphone button. Oh, that's Mike. Hi, Mike. Did you have a co a comment of why you want why you're here this evening? Why do you care about these issues? >> Well, I mean,

[16:10] John is one of the most fascinating people alive. >> Oh, thanks, Mike. Geez. Thank you. >> He uh he has he reveals what's really going on in real life terms and to me that's very important. uh very very important. So that's why I'm here tonight. I I'm also interested in understanding more of how he analyzed and understood the people who he went after. What was their motives? What did they think? There was many of the people who were arrested and and brought to

[16:40] justice, as you put put it, John, were very smart, intelligent, and capable people. They were not motivated by being dumb or foolish or adventurist or whatever. Now we're talking about people with PhDs in mathematics. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. So what motivated the I I want to know and you don't have to answer this right away, but I want to know if what your analysis is what motivated them and whether we take that into account and how we deal with the situation. >> Oh, that's such a good question, Mike.

[17:10] You know, one of the first things I learned when I was uh stationed in Greece from 1998 to 2000 was that I knew nothing about Greece. You know, it's funny when I I'm going to go back uh to to my college uh days. I started I started college in 1982 and I I was working on a degree in Middle Eastern studies at George Washington University, but they didn't offer Arabic there. And they said, "Oh, take Russian. There are Russians in the Middle East." I wasn't interested in taking Russian.

[17:42] So, I found a modern Greek class at Georgetown and through the consortium of DC universities, um, I decided to enroll there and I would just walk up to Georgetown University every day and do Greek class. But when I went in, Georgetown had started a week before GW did, and so I was already a week behind, five classes behind. and the dean of the school of languages and linguistics, uh, James Elus, he told me, "You're already a week behind. You're so far behind, you

[18:13] can't catch up." I said, "No, I already speak Greek. We we learn Greek at home. I just want to make it, you know, good Greek." So, he started speaking to me in Greek. And he says to me, "Your Greek is terrible." And I said, "What? I've been speaking Greek all my life." He said, 'You speak in this weird 1930s island slang. He said, 'When did your people come here?' I said, 1931.

[18:43] And he said, yeah, you're going to have to start back at the beginning again. So I did. Well, when I got to Greece in 1998 as a CIA officer, I thought I knew Greece. I didn't know Greece. I knew what right-wing Greek America wanted me to know about Greece. And one of the very first things that I learned was what we Greek Americans call the huna or the military dictatorship. The Greeks have created a word that translates as

[19:15] the 7-year nightmare. That tells me a lot that I didn't know growing up in Greek America. It wasn't just, ah, there was this democracy and then the military came and then the military left and there was democracy again. Uh-uh. It was the seven-year nightmare because they murdered people, they disappeared people, they tortured people, they had uninhabited islands where they set up um uh internal exiles.

[19:49] This was a this was a scar on the entire country. And it was that trauma as it was experienced by people on the political left that led to the start of Greek terrorism. So there were two primary terrorist groups >> uh [clears throat] revolutionary organization 17 November which was incredibly lethal. They killed 27 people including the CIA station chief, two

[20:21] defense attaches, the minister of finance, the minister of communications, the the minister of um of national economy, the Turkish ambassador, the deputy ambassador. I mean, these were serious hitters. And then there was another group called Revolutionary uh sorry called Popular Revolutionary Struggle, which translates to EA. Ella. Ella usually killed cops, so we didn't have much to do with going after Ella. We were much more interested in 17 November. Well,

[20:54] I remember saying at the time, what does the analysis say? Do we believe that these are the same guys that killed Dick Welch in 75? Yes. I said that they must be what, 70 years old? What? They're 70 years old and they're riding on the back of motorcycles doing hits. Yes. Well, you know what they were? They were 70-year-old men pulling right up alongside of you and doing a hit and

[21:25] then they would vanish. So, how could they vanish? First of all, the Greeks never believed that that they were the same old men that had done the hits from 25 years earlier. They just dismissed that as ridiculous. Secondly, the Greeks were not interested in the analysis that we were doing on on these groups. The analysis to me was the most interesting part of it. And what we were able to find was that 17 November and Ella originated in Paris in 1967.

[22:00] In ' 67, these guys had been students in Paris like so many other Europeans. And you know the 68 riots took place, the Greek coup took place in ' 67. These guys were already either communists or socialists. And they wanted to fight the Huta and fight the Huna's supporters, the the the primary supporter of which was the United States. Um, everybody knew that it was the

[22:31] American government that had given the okay for the Huna to take power. It may not have been the CIA. From what I I saw in those early files, the CIA went along with it, but it was something that had been recommended to the Johnson administration by Henry Kissinger, who was a who was an unpaid adviser to the Johnson White House and that it was actually given the green light by the State Department. As soon as it happened though, the CIA jumped in with both feet. But anyway,

[23:03] this group began meeting in Paris, in cafes, in people's apartments, and they decided that the only way that they could affect political change was through political violence that they believed they were justified in carrying out because the military had illegally taken control of the country. They wanted to do a practice hit and so two of them shot and killed the

[23:34] Uruguayan defense attaches in Paris in 1967. He was a he was a fascist and uh quite a proud fascist and um >> let me interrupt you John. He probably knew Phil Agy. >> He probably did. That's a good point. I hadn't considered that. I bet you're right. And uh they got away. It was easier than they thought it was. And they decided it was

[24:06] time to take the uh take the fight to to Greece. The problem was they couldn't get back into Greece because the military had closed the borders when the huna fell. And the reason the group changed its name from the one May movement to revolutionary organization 17 November was that on the 17th of November 197 uh three there was a peaceful pro-democracy demonstration at the Athens Polytenic

[24:37] University and the military sent tanks to confront these peaceful unarmed student protesters. to hear the students uh tell the story, there were 500 people killed. To hear the military tell the story, there were 35 people killed. In any event, they never released any of the bodies to the families. So, we'll never know how many were killed. It was probably on the higher end of the middle. That was such a national trauma to the

[25:08] Greek people that it weakened whatever support the Huna still had and it finally collapsed and Constantine Garamanis returned from exile was elected prime minister and the rest is history. But 17 November returned to to Athens to first carry out the hit on Dick Welch and to carry out a second hit on the the chief of the Greek national police.

[25:38] His name was Malios. Um they they did both of these hits and got away scot-free. And what they did is they wanted recognition. So they sent a manifesto to Jean Paul Sartra of all people. They they respected Jean Paul Sartra and somebody we we never were able to figure out who uh gave the manifesto to Enri

[26:09] Bernard Levie who's a renowned poet and national treasure of France. At the time he was Sartra's assistant. Sarter read it, thought it was ridiculous, and threw it in a desk drawer. In Greece, they were so offended that he wouldn't make an announcement, you know, of support. They sent him a second manifesto, and then they called and said, "Why didn't you read our manifesto?" Finally, they sent a copy to the Liber newspaper and they published it. And

[26:41] then Sartra read it and said, "Wait a minute. I've read this before. Didn't some Greek send this to us?" And that's how we became aware that there was a group called Revolutionary Organization 17 November. Now, to get back to your your original point, Mike, um, one of the reasons that it took us 27 years to catch them was that they didn't live in Greece. They would fly into Greece from Paris, do a hit, and just fly home to Paris

[27:12] again. Two of them were mathematics professors at universities. One lived in Sweden. One was the mayor of some Greek island. A couple lookouts. We were never able to identify the two women whom um people had told us acted as lookouts. We had five or six um suspects. We we could never figure it out. But um tell you the truth, when I joined the task force, uh let me think 1 2 3 4 and a half years before the group was uh was

[27:44] destroyed, we had 1,200 suspects. Literally, we had 1,200 suspects. The group had seven members and we only had the names right on two of them. Two. That was it. >> That is fascinating. Thank you so much for that question, Mike. Oh my gosh, that is wild. Um, we also have Joshua. Joshua, thank you so much for being here this evening and your patience. Go ahead.

[28:14] >> Hi, Josh. >> Hi, John. Thank you very much for talking with us. And >> I'm very interested in the events surrounding the 911 attacks, especially with regard to the intelligence community. The CIA had multiple opportunities to notify the FBI about two of the hijackers, Hosmi and Midar. >> That's right. >> Having visas and traveling to the United States. And Covert Action magazine a couple years ago published my article on the Canistaro declaration,

[28:46] >> which goes into into great detail on art. >> He texted me today. >> Donald Canestaro. >> Yeah. >> Oh, well, very good. And uh in the Canistero declaration, Mark Rossini, who was an FBI agent assigned to Alex station, and Richard Clark, who was the counter terroriz, >> they have a theory that the CIA, the CIA was working with the Saudi intelligence to monitor and flip Hosmi Midar while

[29:17] they were in the United States and that they didn't want the FBI to get involved. And um somewhere along the way, Hosme, Midar are are part of the hijacking of Flight 77, which crashed in into the Pentagon. And and one a question I have for you is do you do you think the CIA was working with the Saudi intelligence to monitor and flip midar and something went wrong or um Kevin

[29:48] Fenton's work disconnecting the dots? He he posits the theory that the CIA was actually looking to enable a terrorist attack to occur on United United States soil. So, I'd be interest very interested in hearing your what you think >> might have been. >> I've never I've never believed that the CIA wanted an attack on US soil. Um there are so many moving parts to that theory that it would be virtually impossible to carry out and to keep it

[30:20] secret. But I remember I was in Alex Station at the time. I was the chief of counter intelligence uh in Alex Station and I remember people being giddy at the prospect of Hazmid Manhart being recruited. This also goes to the to the idea that the CIA hated the FBI so much that they were willing to risk a massive terrorist

[30:51] attack on US soil other rather than to bring the FBI uh in on the operation. Um, there were several points in my in my operational career where I was specifically told, "Don't inform the FBI of that or you're not going to need to send a cable to the FBI or don't mention it to the FBI when you're seeing." Well, we're supposed to be working in partnership with the FBI. In fact, the FBI was doing the same thing to the CIA. That's how deep the

[31:22] hatred was. I I say a lot in in podcasts that it wasn't until 2009 that the CIA and FBI computer systems were even compatible with one another. [clears throat] >> So, you know, when we're overseas, let's say you're a let's say you're an operations officer overseas and you go to an operational meeting. Um, usually the meetings are at night. Usually they're either in a hotel or in an out of the way space or in your car and

[31:56] you write down everything your your agent says. You you for myself I would sort of separate it based on what needed to go in what cable. And some of it you're going to put in a what's called a TD which is a a cable that protects the sourcing but goes to the analyst so that the analyst can have access to the information. And the rest of it goes in something called an AOC. An accompanying operational cable. Accompanying AOC. Yes. An accompanying operational cable. Um,

[32:29] that's where the juice is, right? And so you send this cable back to headquarters and headquarters says, "Oh my god, this is wonderful. Oh, I can't believe he said this." Yeah, let's not tell the FBI. Now, the reason why this is so is so dangerous and destructive is that whether we liked it or not at the time, 9/11 was an open criminal investigation and whether the information was being um collected overseas or in the United

[33:01] States, the FBI had primacy. Now, you know the old deal that the CIA has primacy overseas and the FBI has primacy in the US. that should have gone out the window as soon as the first plane hit. Uh, and it didn't. There was this bureaucratic pissing match that that continued for years. Well, when I was overseas and I'm meeting with these sources and I'm writing my cables, I send it to, you know, the

[33:32] counterterrorism center, branch one, branch two, branch three, branch four, because they all have an interest in the information. I send it to the Office of Neareastern Operations, maybe the Office of South Asian Operations, um, and I'll send it to the White House for for Dick Clark's um, uh, information. Even if I wanted to send it to the FBI, I couldn't because the computer systems were incompatible. I could send it to NSA. I could send it even to the State

[34:03] Department. All I have to put is Roger Channel and that goes directly to the State Department. I couldn't there wasn't even a mechanism by which I could send it to the FBI. And like I say, at the same time, let me let me make sure I get this right. Hasmi and Midhar were in San Diego. We wanted to recruit them and we knew that they were in San Diego. The FBI was looking for them and had no

[34:34] idea they were in San Diego because the FBI wanted to arrest them. The CIA wanted to recruit them and then the rest is history. So I think really what it was was the worst bureaucratic screwup in American history, the worst intelligence failure in American history to the point where in most other countries people would have been prosecuted for their conduct and instead all that happened to them

[35:06] was that their budgets were tripled and they were told go do anything you want. >> [clears throat] >> Thank you for the question, Joshua. >> Good question. >> I wanted I was wondering if I could um ju just say one thing. Thank you very much, John, for your answer. >> Uh th Thursday night, Boston 911 truth is hosting Mark Rosini >> to to speak. He was one of the FBI

[35:37] assignees to Alex Station along with Doug Miller. >> Yep. So um it might be of interest for for you and everybody here if to uh to join that meeting if you want. Should I send a link in the group chat >> if if there if anyone's interested. Thank you so much >> because Mark Rossini I think is a very important whistleblower as well. >> Agreed. >> On on this topic and and thank you for >> answering my question. >> Thank you Josh. >> Appreciate that. Um we have one more

[36:08] hand and then we'll go back into our conversation but go ahead Leslie welcome. >> Good evening. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> So I am here because uh Louie keeps in contact with me. We've been buddies for many many years. I am originally from Ecuador, South America where Philip Beiji served in his first post and I learned about him. I came here in

[36:38] 1969 and I learned about him when I read his inside the company and his role in Ecuador was to convince the Ecuadorian government, this was in 1960, to break relations with Cuba. We I when I met Philip Beiji, it was in the early 80s. I was an activist with the Central America Solidarity Committee

[37:09] and we invited him to speak in Baltimore and I was able to shake his hand and give him a hand and what an honor a pleasure to meet such a brave human being. That's what I learned about covered action and I've been on and off following covered action since then. I have been an activist in this country most of the years that I have lived here because you cannot live in the US in the

[37:41] center of empire without trying to do something about it. There are so many crimes that are committed against so many people all over the world and at the cost of the well-being of many people here in the United States. And those of us who have gotten more involved have also been followed by the FBI. Even though everything we do is totally legal and is supposed to be the center

[38:12] of democracy, I don't believe in that. And this country turned me into a socialist because you just have to open your eyes and you see what the US government and other governments that they associate with like the government of Netanyahu Netanyahu and Israel commit in other countries. Thank you so much John. Thank

[38:42] you >> for your presentation, your clarity, your sincerity, and for having the guts to come out of that criminal organization. >> Thank you very much for that. Thank you for your support. >> Wow, Leslie, what a neat story. Thank you so much for being with here tonight and to be able to shake the hand of Philip Agy. That is incredible. Um, okay. We have one more person who is on an iPhone and cannot raise their hand.

[39:12] James, why are you here tonight? What brought you here? Welcome. >> Thanks. Thanks again, John. U I've really uh kind of been inspired and also um all the full way of emotions with your story and you are you are a great storyteller. Um my name is James, but uh James is a relative. He was born in 1741 and died in 1781 and some uh stories out there because again I wasn't allowed.

[39:43] I'm just reading and learning about him. Uh he was one of the unsung patriots of uh cowpins but he's also part of the family that uh on both sides of me that I can trace back 10 generations to the mass migration in 1640. um a lot of Scotch-Irish. And so knowing that uh potato famines aren't really potato famines, but the uh mass starvation of a of a subhuman race by uh you know,

[40:13] English standards. You know, we uh like to uh rebel softly, quietly, and loudly by enjoying life every day. Um, and uh, I I'll say that I'm connected here with a lot of your stories [snorts] through some through my my own stories and some through through my dad. But um, I will say that um, uh, in 2002 I was a small part of a project that ultimately ultimately took down rigs and uh, being the bank of the CIA.

[40:45] >> Mhm. I'll also say as a at the IRS and um I'll just say as a contractor and uh I'm happy to say that our contract had ended the way it was supposed to. Um I guess two or three years ago we did the job that we needed and we they they no longer needed uh our expertise or and they were able to take over the job themselves. But I personally had uh worked with the IRS whistleblower um before he moved over to the uh as an IRS employee. And I I'll also say that um

[41:19] uh probably the same company that uh Snowden used to work for before going to uh NSA. Um, and so, um, had plenty of stories and too many stories. And I I I empathize and and with profound sadness with Leslie's story, um, knowing that what we've done um, over the years, we we've we've created graveyards. And I I'll just say, John, um, your story about Gary Wells

[41:50] and, um, the crack cocaine story has >> No, Gary Gary Webb. Web sorry there's another side to that story that's also CIA contress and took um and >> I know that one very well um and in the Kerry commission my dad uh my dad worked on this for Senate Foreign Relations Committee and for a while he was in the 80s and he worked under John Kerry and so I have the same feelings that you do but um

[42:21] >> uh and I'll just say that um the stories I that he told and the stories I learned after he passed which were great stories was he painted pictures where he was kind of in the corner and learned that he was in the middle of it. I'll say that uh learned from several people including several Al Salvadorans that he was a key person in the ceasefire in 1989. And he also, you know, while he was down there trying to mediate and truly mediate peace, um, you know, this this

[42:51] whole cocaine thing showed up and, um, you know, Carrie had the carry commission and he was a congressional staffer with the team of investigators and found that uh, witness [snorts] and uh, except many more stories and so and then there's stories that uh, I know that they buried that um, >> well, it sounds it sounds like you should write some of these stories. for covert action. Okay. >> Seriously, >> you should you should submit some articles >> here to kind of ask for some guidance, too. >> Oh, yeah. >> Reach out anytime. We we would our

[43:23] editor is incredible. He does great work. Thank you so much for being with us and we would love to see some of what you you know your knowledge and to share that and to package it in a way that's informative for the audience. And thank you so much. So John, let's let's jump into the world that very few people get to see. Okay. So when you first entered into the intelligence world, what stuck out to you on a human level, like a part

[43:54] of the culture and the values, you know, and some of these unspoken rules, what stood out to you the most? Uh the internal secrecy was the first thing that leapt out at me. When I first joined the CIA, we had badges that are different than the badges they have now. Post 911, everybody has access to the to the whole building. There are a couple of offices that are off limits unless you run into a certain compartment. But but back when I first joined, um we wore blue badges. Blue meant you

[44:25] were a staff employee. Green meant you were a contractor. Yellow meant you were um cleared only to the secret level and red meant that you were, you know, a janitor and didn't have access. You had access to the to the halls that you needed to sweep and mop, but you didn't have access to information. But there used to be these um retirees who would come back um at I don't know how much per hour and just sit at these lecterns

[44:55] in the hallway and as you walked past you had to hold your badge up and then you were they would they would motion for you to keep walking down the hallway. You weren't even allowed. I wasn't allowed on the sixth floor because that was the operational floor. And God forbid I should hear something about some operation that I'm not read into. But I remember thinking, man, these people don't even trust each other. They don't even trust each other. So, as I said, that changed after 9/11.

[45:26] But but that was that was the the first thing that struck me as odd. Another thing was that um analysts were were seen as secondass citizens for a very long time. If you wanted to be at the top of the heap, you wanted to be an operator. Um the truth of the matter was it was the analysts that were the brains of the operation. It was the operations people who were too stupid to make it as analysts. I I hate to use generalities like that, but

[45:57] that was pretty much the the situation. Um, you know, I when I switched from from analysis to operations, I had to take I had to take a battery of tests. And I remember the guy who was the hiring authority for for the job that I got in Athens called me to to come down to the counterterrorism center. He said, "You blew the doors off this test."

[46:27] So he showed me the results of the test and it was an arc, right? And I was on the very far right end of the arc compared to other operations officers compared to analysts. I was solidly right in the middle at the top of the bell. So there was nothing special about me as an analyst. I was good. Everybody was pretty good. You know, some were geniuses, some were idiots, but I was right there in the very

[46:57] center. Nothing special. And I thought to myself, who do these operations people think they are? They think they're so smart. And they're not. They're not. That was another early lesson for me was people walk around like they are so smart. I got that a lot on Capitol Hill. Two and a half years at the uh actually is it two and a half? Yeah. two and a half years at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I was the senior investigator. I gave a lecture to a group of PhD

[47:29] candidates from uh George Washington University. Um once one of the professors was a friend of mine. He called and he said, "Hey, we're going to be up on the hill today. We're going to go to the, you know, armed services committee, the intelligence committee and the uh foreign relations committee. Do you mind talking to my PhD candidates?" I said, "Sure." So, I go into the hearing room and they're all sitting there and I said, um, I still remember what I said. I said, 'If you really want to have an impact on foreign

[47:59] policy, you really want to make a difference, don't come here. I said, we walk around like we are so important and so powerful and we're not. I said, 'If you want to have an impact on foreign policy, go to the State Department, go to the foreign service, you know, CIA, NSC, maybe to a lesser extent, but if you really want to have an impact on foreign policy, go to USAD

[48:30] where they'll actually let you do stuff. And I don't mean CIA cover operations. I mean like digging water wells and and you know, installing electrical grids and things like that. He called me later that night to thank me. He said, "You were the only person all day who told us the truth." On my my first my first uh big assignment at Senate Foreign Relations Committee, do you remember um uh Captain Phillips the movie? Uh he his

[49:03] ship was taken by Somali pirates. He was played by uh what's his name? Tom Hanks. Well, um, that happened when I was on the foreign relations committee and Senator Kerry asked me to track down Captain Phillips and convince him to come and, uh, and testify. So, I found the guy at his house in Vermont, which is landlocked, by the way. And, um, I called him. I said, "Hey, uh, Captain Phillips, welcome home. Uh, I read all

[49:34] the articles. It's amazing. Congratulations. Senator Kerry would love it if you would come and testify. You're going to get the VIP treatment. He's going to escort you to the room. And he agreed. There was such a huge response to this thing that we actually had to move the hearing to the Armed Services Committee hearing room, which was like four times the size of the of the uh foreign relations committee. And Carrie said to me afterwards, "That's the first time

[50:05] I've ever been on the cover of People magazine." He said, "Time magazine? Sure, but you got me on the cover of People magazine." I had a good laugh. So anyway, Captain Phillips comes, he testifies. We have the president of Mariscolines testifying with him and the president of the Seafarers Union. It was the three of them. It was a fantastic event. And afterwards, Carrie got up at the end of the meeting and he turns around and he shakes my hand and he said, "That was the best

[50:36] hearing I've ever done." And I said, cuz I'm an idiot. I said, "So, what are the follow-up steps?" And he said, "To what?" And I said, "To the hearing, it was so successful. So, what do we do? Do we write legislation? Do we liaz with the the the Department of the Navy on how to better protect ships? No, we did our thing. We had the hearing. And I said, 'Yeah, but the hearing was just a it was just a puff

[51:08] piece. And he says, "Welcome to Capitol Hill." And that was it. Now, when I started getting into serious investigations, cuz remember, I'm the senior investigator, everything turned to [ __ ] Excuse excuse my my language, but I'll explain. I had really great contacts in the human rights community because I had already blown the whistle a year and a half earlier. So, a a well-known human rights

[51:38] activist calls me and he says, "Listen, I have some explosive information that I need to pass to you, but I have to do it in private. Can you meet me in this in this unused classroom at John's Hopkins University?" I said, "Sure." So I drive over there, lights are all off. He meets me in this in this unused classroom and he said, "Have you ever heard of the Dash Leyle massacre?" I said, "Of course." On on November 30th and

[52:08] December 1st, 2001, 2,000 Taliban soldiers gave up on mass to the Northern Alliance. The Northern Northern Alliance leadership called us, CIA, and said, "What do we do with these people? There's not a prison in the country that's big enough to hold 2,000 prisoners, you know, in one day." And the CIA said to put them in container trucks and send them out to the desert and hold them there until we

[52:41] could divide them up and send them to smaller jails around Afghanistan and some in Pakistan. So they were loaded onto the trucks. We we called it the box up under the This is under the leadership of uh General uh Abdul Rashid Dostam, one of the most grizzly war criminals who's still alive and operating uh freely in the world. And so they didn't put any air holes in these

[53:11] containers and they didn't give these guys any food or water. 2,000 [snorts] people. 14 survived. One of the survivors told us that when they opened the trucks, the bodies fell out like sardines from a can. So, what this human rights activist wanted to tell me was that he had a new source who was 12 years old at the time and was hiding behind a rock when the

[53:44] trucks were opened. And closest to him were two foreigners wearing blue jeans and black t-shirts and speaking English. So, who is going to be in the Afghan desert on December the 2nd, 2001, wearing blue jeans and a black t-shirt and speaking English? I'll give you one guess. So, I took the information, I wrote a letter to the CIA, I autopended it, John

[54:19] Kerry, chairman, with his with his approval. And I sent it to the CIA asking for clar for clarification. Were there CIA personnel on the site of the boxup or when the trucks arrived uh at the reconoider site when the trucks were opened and the bodies fell out? Six weeks passed and finally one of my colleagues comes into my office and he says, "Um, hey, uh, the agency sent you a response to

[54:51] your letter." I said, 'I didn't see any response. I just checked my mail an hour ago. And he said, 'N no, uh, it's downstairs in the vault. Uh, they classified it top secret. And I only had a secret clearance at the time. I said, well, what did it say? And he said, it said, "Go [ __ ] yourself." And I said, "Okay, that's how they want to play it. I can be an [ __ ] too." So, I went to Carrie and he said, "Yeah, uh, we're going to have to kill that

[55:22] investigation." I said, "Senator, I've been to Afghanistan. There are still human bones sticking out of the ground where this took place. Some of them still have clothing attached to them. It's not like this didn't happen." And during the campaign, President Obama said that he was going to initiate the definitive investigation of the Dashle massacre as soon as he became president. And Carrie said, "No, you're not."

[55:53] And so I killed the investigation. I one of the things that I learned early on at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee was if you wanted to do something that didn't directly help John Kerry become Secretary of State, he was going to kill it. >> Yeah. >> It's just wild. And we hear about these stories and we hear about this corruption. And right now, love him or hate him, uh, General Flynn is being

[56:24] very vocal in regards to dismantling, defunding, just getting rid of the CIA. >> Yes. >> Right. So, what what is your, you know, knowing this this all of these terrors, all of these horrors, the legacy of the CIA, what what's your solution? I mean, what what do we do about this? It's out of control. I I've been relatively outspoken on this issue for a little while now. Um I don't believe that there should be a CIA.

[56:57] Look, we have, you know, every country has a foreign intelligence service and a domestic intelligence service, a CIA and an FBI, right? Pretty much every country in the world, not literally every country, but most. We have 18 separate intelligence agencies in the US government. 18 standalone separate intelligence agencies. That is ridiculous. It's offensive. I remember colleagues of mine um you know bidding on their next job like oh

[57:28] where where do you want to go? London, Paris, Rome? No. The Department of Education. The Department of Education has an intelligence office. Yes. as does the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Commerce, the Department of the Treasury, they all have intelligence, uh offices, all of them. So, um this was an ongoing problem. It remains an ongoing problem. And I believe that everything the CIA does

[58:01] can be done by other agencies with better oversight. First of all, there is no oversight of the CIA. We all know that. Even the pro-CIA people will admit it to you privately that the that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence are just cheerleaders for the CIA. There's no oversight. And besides, how can a staff of 40 or 50 or 60 people oversee an agency of 30 or 40,000 people? It's not possible. And

[58:33] then the office of the DNI, the director of national intelligence is growing like by the by the day it's adding personnel. You know, when the ODNI was created, it had 15 employees and today it has 12,000 employees. Is that really necessary? So for analysis, the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research does it better. For intelligence collection, the Pentagon's Defense Human Services

[59:05] does it better without breaking the law. For technology and technological development, DARPA and NSA do it way better. So why do we need the CIA? I don't think we do. Well, how how do you see it actually being dismantled? I mean, because we saw JFK, he said, "I want to shatter the CIA into a million pieces or whatever the quote is." And then look at what happened. So, right. So, what you know, how do you see it actually being

[59:36] dismantled? >> I I don't think it will be. >> Oh gosh. >> I I don't The deep state is real. >> Yeah. >> I I've been saying this for the last two weeks, but I'm going to repeat it here. I've come to the to the belief that the ideological spectrum is not a straight line from left to right. It's a circle. And on some issues, the two sides meet on on the issue of forever wars and the deep state and the role of the CIA in our in our society. The progressive left

[1:00:06] and the MAGA right are in agreement on that. We should embrace that agreement and we should move against the CIA. But I honestly don't think anybody in Washington has the guts to do it. I mean, people will say, "Haha, look what happened at JFK." Yeah, seriously, look what happened to JFK. That's why people are afraid to do it. Harry Truman. Uh, in the days after the Kennedy assassination, Harry Truman wrote an op-ed that ran in the Washington Post in which he said that he was a damn fool

[1:00:37] for creating the CIA with the National Security Act of 1947 that ran in the morning edition and it was removed from the afternoon edition. Why? Because the CIA didn't want it there. So people in positions of power and authority, they know what they're up against and it's just too powerful. >> While we're waiting, Charlotte, where where are you turning tuning in from? >> I'm in Vermont. >> Oh, Vermont. And are you familiar with the magazine?

[1:01:08] >> Yeah. >> Oh, wonderful. >> You ran a fairly big story on me uh not so long ago about my father. Well, it was about my father being the first master spy in the Middle East and I've spent decades investigating what was behind that and um >> fascinating. >> Yeah. So, [snorts] uh yeah, and I know Lou and I just happened to be calling Lou and he told me about the event tonight, so I thought

[1:01:39] I'd sit in. >> Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for joining us. >> I Oh, >> I [laughter] I do have a thought though. >> You know, you were mentioning um or John was talking about left and right coming together >> on some issues. Well, one issue where they do come together is on 9/11. There are so many people that want a new investigation and um that includes uh you know,

[1:02:11] Senator Ron Johnson is willing to consider that. I don't know if it'll ever happen. Um there there were serious hopes that there would be a renewed investigation. >> So yeah, I'd like to know John's thoughts about that. >> Yeah, I I wholeheartedly support Ron Johnson's um uh efforts, desire to reopen the investigation. The 911 commission was was fixed anyway, right? They weren't allowed to interview

[1:02:41] anybody from Guantanamo. They weren't allowed to interview any CIA officers. Um the the information was just fed to them in a trickle. Uh I think I think that that a new 9/11 commission number one would allow us to put to rest some of the some of the more outrageous uh rumors that have inexplicably taken hold. uh like the Pentagon was hit by a

[1:03:12] missile, not an airplane, when 10,000 people sitting in rush hour traffic that morning watched an airplane fly into it. No, it wasn't an airplane. or I I had a woman tell me with complete sincerity that um that the it was an airplane but uh the plane was empty and people had been they had landed at an Air Force base. Everybody on the plane was executed and then the

[1:03:44] hijackers then flew the plane into the Pentagon. It's like what what how do you come up with stuff like this? So getting to the truth, getting at the truth would be a very very good thing because it would put to rest some of these ridiculous uh theories. And and this is what's more important to me. I want to know exactly what the role of the Saudis was, the Saudi government and the royal family. I want to know exactly what the role of the Israeli government was. You know, the Israelis are supposed

[1:04:15] to be at least the best uh intelligence service in the Middle East, one of the two or three best intelligence services in the world. They are on the Arab countries like white on rice, and they didn't have any information that they could give us to warn us about 9/11. On the other hand, the Israelis knew that if we were to be attacked directly, especially attacked in the United States on 911, that we

[1:04:46] would set out to kill as many Muslims as we possibly could. And that's exactly what happened. By by many accounts, we killed 2 million people over the next 20 years. And that benefits only the Israelis. We toppled the Iraqi government, which again only benefited the Israelis. God knows it didn't help the Gulf countries in any way and didn't help us. So yeah, I I strongly support reopening 9/11 and looking at it from beginning to

[1:05:17] end with unfettered access to everything that this committee would need. >> Great points. Now, before the break, John, you said something that's really interesting, and I think this has to do with your personality and who you are as a person. Oh, >> you you you talked about the circle >> and how the right and the left Yeah. >> meet in the middle sometimes. >> I'm all about cooperation >> and and that's a very unique perspective in this politically divided world. But I

[1:05:51] I'm totally on the same page with you. We do meet the left and right often more than we think. And for the you know we have about 40 45 minutes left and I I want to get into the person that is John right and and your your mentality on things and you know I think there I I do not say this lightly there are whistleblowers that actually in their lives. >> Oh yeah. because of how impactful you

[1:06:22] lose your family, your house, your home, your I mean it is devastation, right? when people come out and blow the whistle. You are a very unique individual that you're not just surviving, you're thriving right now, >> you know, and you've been able to to continue your your livelihood and your mission and and so what you know, and and here's here's how I'm going to frame this question for you, okay? A lot of people talk about bravery and courage,

[1:06:54] but they don't see the moments when you're by yourself, those quiet moments, >> you know, of in moments of depression or anxiety, you know? So, what in your mind and in your heart, what has allowed you to push forward and and to thrive through all of this chaos? >> Besides 37 and a half milligrams of Ephexor, um I'm joking. I'm actually not joking. I I don't take it anymore, but I

[1:07:25] couldn't have survived without it. Um Well, you're right. The the costs are incredibly high. Aaron Schwarz, for example, that poor kid, as soon as they charged him, he went home and he committed suicide. Um Julian Assange tried repeatedly to commit suicide. It's something that is always near the front of your mind. And then, you know, in my case, I talk a

[1:07:55] lot about having lost my pension. No big deal really. My right to vote, my gun rights. In the greater scheme of things, no big deal. But I lost so much more. I lost my family. My my wife and I are no longer married. We're we're no longer in contact. Um she is the CEO of a defense contractor that works almost exclusively with the CIA and the Pentagon. And um four of my five kids don't speak to me.

[1:08:26] Um my two oldest say that they're ashamed that I'm a criminal. It's impossible to get a job. No company would ever hire me right at the first sign of of uh you know some problem. I'm going to blow the whistle and call the IRS or the FBI or something. They don't want that. And so I had to uh dig up something on my own. And it's it's a patchwork.

[1:08:58] I'll have to work until the day I die just because, you know, you can't really make a living at $300 an oped. But then at the same time, the CIA has repeatedly underestimated my resolve. You know, I remember I don't know the day after my arrest, two days after my arrest, I was really like

[1:09:28] thinking about terrible things. And and my ex-wife said, um, you're you're stronger than they realize you are. You always have been. They have consistently underestimated your resolve and your strength, and you can beat them. You just have to fight. And she was right. And so I did. I fought and fought and fought. I ended up fighting her in court over the course of years and years. um she ended up uh on the other side of this issue.

[1:10:00] But honest to God, I wouldn't I wouldn't do anything differently. Nothing. I say this all the time. I'm going to repeat it. The CIA's culture is such that they want you to believe that everything is a shade of gray. And some things are not a shade of gray. They're black and white. Right or wrong? Torture is wrong. Kidnapping people and taking them to third countries for for torture is wrong. Having an archipelago

[1:10:33] of secret prisons that are so secret that in most cases even the presidents and prime ministers of those countries didn't know that there was a secret CIA torture chamber in their countries. this was a handshake deal between the director of the CIA and the director of these these uh host intelligence services. That's wrong. And so we're either going to be this shining beacon for human rights or like Ronald Reagan said, the shining city on a hill or

[1:11:04] we're not. But we can't not be and then lie about it to the rest of the world. So yeah, the cost was high, but you know what? I'm also a believer in fate and this is this is what I was meant to do. >> Absolutely. And you know, you never know at at least when it comes to your children, you never know how God works in mysterious ways or the higher power, you know, whatever you want to call it. That's right. >> Divine things happen, you know, and

[1:11:34] there there's who knows, you know? Well, >> you know, the old the old religious joke, um, how do you make God laugh? Tell them your plans, >> right? >> And there's something to be said for that. >> Yep. Absolutely. Now, you were just on a podcast and it was another with this another CIA agent with the curly hair. I can't remember. >> Barry Barry Eisler. >> Yes. >> Good guy. >> And Yeah. And there was a moment there was a little moment of tension, right, where he was kind of calling you out. He was like, you knew that you were

[1:12:04] breaking protocol or whatever, right? Yeah. So in in your eyes, what separates these acts of bravery and you know actual reckless behavior? Like how do you gauge that? >> Do you remember I'm going to say two years ago, maybe three years ago, there was this kid in I think it was Massachusetts. Um, oh, his name escapes me now, but he was he was in the Army National Guard or the reserves or something, and he was taking top secret

[1:12:35] documents and putting them on Discord. >> Daniel Hail. >> No, no, Daniel Hail's a bonafide hero. This was uh a kid with a with a uh a Portuguese name. >> Not sure. >> And he was very young. Anyway, he was trying to impress his his gamer friends on Discord with the fact that he had access to this these classified documents. That's not a whistleblower. That's a thief. >> Right.

[1:13:05] >> Um there one of the things I learned very early on was that there's a legal definition of whistleblowing. It's bringing to Tara. Thank you, Victor. Terara was his name. The the legal definition of whistleblowing is bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. Simple as that. One of the other things that I learned early on was that motivation is irrelevant.

[1:13:37] If you bring to light evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to public health, or public safety, it doesn't matter why you did it. All that matters is that you did it. And we we should be encouraging people to do that, right? I mean, otherwise, why why pass laws if you're just going to either ignore them or selectively enforce them? Some things are right and wrong. They're black and white.

[1:14:08] I think Mike has a a question. >> Yeah, I have a question. John, what examples do you have of corporate power and corporate influence in CIA policy and operations? Could you could you talk to that some? >> Sure, that's a good question. Um, I talked a few minutes ago about the blue badges being staff badges and the green badges being um contractor badges. When I was there pre- 911, I'm gonna say

[1:14:39] at least 80% of the badges were blue. Maybe more than 90% of the badges were blue. Now, a majority of the people walking the halls at the CIA are contractors. M >> and not only are they contractors from companies that the CIA hires to, you know, just put butts and seats, >> the CIA actually got a legal waiver so that it could begin investing in private companies through a venture

[1:15:12] capital arm called Inqel. >> You've heard of this dreadful company, Palunteer, for example. The CIA created Palunteer. That was the first startup that the CIA ever invested in. >> And now it's, you know, it's a$ 15 billion dollar investment. That was illegal until until passage of the uh Patriot Act. And so, not only are a majority of the people in the CIA

[1:15:43] outside contractors doing this for profit, but the CIA is involved in investing in those very same contractors and making money on the money that they're making from the CIA like a circle. >> Okay, I have so many thoughts. Uh, I'm going to try to be cogent here. Um, John, you are a hero and and Oh, thank you. I tell I teach college for people people who don't know and I brag about how I'm friends with this guy and all the crazy things he's done and I tell

[1:16:14] them that a few Thanksgivings ago he sat on a couch and poked each other and laughed for a couple hours. Um anyway um you know I'll start with my one of my last thoughts. You you [clears throat] were talking about bravery and I had this thought that in a very ironically you are the real deal. You're what all most CIA agents think they are. You're a smart, tough guy with integrity. You know, >> and most, >> frankly, I don't think are, right? Um,

[1:16:45] you know what I mean? Uh, so, so I my from what little I know about you, you know, you are smart and tough, and I I really mean that. I'm not just patting you on the back and and that's how that's why you survive because like you said, it's hell. I can't imagine taking those risks. I I Anyway, I I don't want to go on and on. I I realized I have a magical version of of of your your whistleblowing moment and I have to correct that because I tell my students that I still haven't talked to John about what he was going through his mind when he said yes to the question, do we

[1:17:16] torture on national news TV, but it sounds from what you're saying today that you planned this just like Rosa Parks planned to sit in the wrong part of the bus. >> You know what? I really believed that somebody else was going to say something first. And that's why it took me as long as it did to come out, you know, and and to go public on ABC News. Um, we started torturing Obubeta on August the 2nd, 2002. And

[1:17:47] as soon as the torture began, we started getting cables at headquarters from all the people, you know, peripheral to the torture, the nurse, the doctor, the secretary, the security guy, the case officer, and they were saying, "Whoa, we didn't sign up for this." The doctor said, "Hey, I took a hypocratic oath to first do no harm. I quit." And he resigned and he came back. The secretary fainted when she accidentally walked in

[1:18:17] on a a torture session. Fainted. Others curtailed their assignments. Curtailment meaning um they went back to headquarters short of the end of their tour. That's a careerending decision to just sort of walk out mid tour. So I was like, "Oh, thank God. I'm not the only one that thinks this is a, you know, a monstrosity." And surely, I said, "Surely somebody's going to say something." And nobody said a word.

[1:18:48] >> Scares the hell out of me. >> Yeah. And then in 2005 or six, somebody said something to the New York Times about the secret prison system. And a colleague of mine who was on assignment to the to the U. N had two FBI agents show up at her office. They took her by the arms. They escorted her out of the White House and took her badge and they accused her of being the source um for the secret

[1:19:20] prisons revelations. She was never charged with a crime. And she told me, she looked me right in the eye and she said, "It wasn't me. I wish it was, but it wasn't me." I said, "My god, they fired you. They took your badge. They revoked your security clearance." She said, "It wasn't me." And then I thought, well, maybe that wasn't her. Maybe it was. But on this torture thing, there are half a dozen people or more that are jumping up and down and screaming about the

[1:19:50] illegality of this program. So, I just sat back and waited for somebody to come forward and then nobody did. >> So, if I can follow up. Uh, so John, I'm going to show my respect for you by picking a fight with you a little bit. Go for it. >> So, uh, you talked about the left and right at the extremes agreeing. My thing I study imperialism and history and power and I you frustrate me because

[1:20:20] you're so damn smart and I you don't think like me. So, I I want you to be more like me. So, what I want you to do or I mean this is a question. What about the structural analysis? Right? So, here's a here's a way to to do this. Who does the CIA work for >> in your opinion? >> Or or who is it supposed to work for? You mean who does it work for? >> That's you're right. That's implies that second question. But what I'm So let me >> No, I think I to to answer you directly, I I think the I think the CIA works for

[1:20:52] the, you know, the the corporate, you know, slashdefense uh uh monolith >> in Washington. I do. >> Okay. >> I in fact, I just wrote an oped. I haven't sent it out yet, but I just wrote it tonight about um about uh the deep state. You know, Republicans love this or conservatives love this term, the deep state. Well, the deep state's real. It's a real thing

[1:21:24] in that in that people at the CIA can be in these senior intelligence service positions for 25 or 30, even 35 years, and there's no getting rid of them. I just told a friend of mine yesterday, I'm sorry Josh, I'm I'm rambling, but I just told a friend of mine yesterday that when I was in Pakistan, my entire branch, I I had seven people working for me and all seven of them were old men. They they were all former either directors or deputy directors of uh near east operations. One of them was the

[1:21:55] deputy director of the CIA. We all lived in the same guest house. They all worked for me, green badges, but they came back because they were, you know, patriotic. And we were sitting in the uh we were sitting in the uh hotel or the the guest house one night and one of them I I mentioned one of the old men. I said, "Jean, Jean told me today blah blah blah." And um and my colleague says that Gaitley and I said, "Wait a minute." I said, "Jean, is Jean

[1:22:26] Gatley?" And he said, "Yeah, who did you think he was?" I said, 'The commander of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And he said, 'Ye. So I said, 'Jane, are you Jean Gaitley from the Bay of Pigs? And he says, [ __ ] Kennedy. We could have won that thing. And I was like, oh my god, I can't believe it. But that's an example of somebody who was at the CIA for 42 years and there was no

[1:22:56] getting rid of him. >> I think that we're I think a class analysis is needed. I I think that the left and right don't Yeah. They often agree kind of, but what the left a smart leftist like me would say is there's a upper class whose interests generally get promoted by psycho arrogant [ __ ] pardon my French, >> right, who who are allowed to continue doing the job for 40 years and screw things up and all. So, in other words, I I that's so that's all that's I just wonder what you think of all that. Well,

[1:23:26] maybe um I think we're actually not in so much disagreement as you think we might be. Um I will admit to you that I have said to friends recently, I'm finding a new level of respect for Marjgerie Taylor Green. [laughter] >> Ouch. >> Marjorie Taylor Green is of course insane, >> right? But on some of these issues of war and peace and foreign interventions, she's right. And while we may have to swallow

[1:23:58] hard over some of her other votes, >> I'll take that support where I can get it. And and if if Donald Trump is going to get 77% in that district and there's no hope of of a progressive being elected, all right, I'll take her I'll take her once in a lifetime uh you know, correct vote. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I will say they treat me like a king at Fox News, too. >> Like a king. >> Interesting. Yeah. >> So, so sweet. I'm glad somebody does,

[1:24:29] you know. >> Finally, and I'm I'm banned from MSNBC and CNN just stopped calling me. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Fox is the only outlet that calls me. >> Can I just jump in? Can I just jump in? John. Um, so why are you um banned at MSNBC and and these progressive networks? What wh what what was the reason? >> At MSNBC, it's two reasons. I got a call from that absolutely awful what's his name? Ari Melber. Was that his name?

[1:25:01] >> And he said to me, this is right before COVID. He said, "Uh, hey, uh, we want to have you on the show with Dan Ellburg." I said, "Oh, fantastic. I love Dan. He loves me. Happy to do it. And he says, "How do you want to be introduced?" And I said, "Either as former CIA officer John Kuryaku, former CIA counterterrorism officer John Kuryaku, depending on what the topic of the of the segment is, or CIA torture whistleblower John Kuryaku." So, I go up to the studio. It's It's

[1:25:33] hard to get to. It's It's right next to uh the Director of National Intelligence, Interestingly enough. way way way up on Nebraska Avenue. And um I go in there and they do makeup and then I get fitted for the for the microphone and I sit down. I see Dan on the screen. I said, "Hey Dan." He says, "Hey, John." "Hey, this is going to be fun." So Ari Melbour comes on and he says, "We're going to start with Dan." Since he's Dan, of course. I said, "Yes, of course." He asked Dan a question.

[1:26:04] We're pre-taping it, right? Which is important. And then he says,"Now we're going to turn to convicted felon John Kuryaku." And I said, "Motherfucker." I said, and I stood up and I ripped off the the um microphone. And he says, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry." You know, it was just a it was a private note that I wrote to myself. I didn't mean for it to get in the script. I said, "You asshole." I said, "You set me up and I'm

[1:26:34] not going to play games with you. you and that awful Rachel Matto who every single time she would say my name, she would say John Kuryaku who styles himself a whistleblower. Screw you Rachel Matto and your $14 million a year limousine liberal contract. So they I told him, "Don't ever do that to me again." I said, "You are lucky that this is taped to run later. You're lucky because I would have embarrassed you on the air.

[1:27:06] And they never called me back. Rachel Matto producer called me once and I said you have got to be kidding me. I said of everybody on your network she has treated me with the most disrespect and you want me to come on her show? Not in a million years. I said and they never called me again. >> Wow. >> I had the same kind of situation with NPR. >> Same thing. I was like no no no. And it was live. I said, 'N no, no, I'm not going to let you play games with me like

[1:27:36] this. >> Absolutely not. And I had friends, like professors who were calling me saying,"Oh, you really gave them [ __ ] on NPR." I said, "Yeah, how much you want to bet they'll never ever call me again?" And they never have because I don't want to be on their neoliberal propaganda outlet. Absolutely not. >> Well, good for you. We have uh Lou. Hi, Lou. L's got a question. >> Uh, first of all, I want to give some credit to where it's due and that is to

[1:28:09] two people. Chris Ag, who I knew as a child and I knew I knew his dad and I'm proud to have known his dad because he taught me a lot about how this CIA really works. I learned a lot more since then from John Kuryaku. Um the second one is uh about somebody else who was not a whistleblower. Quite the opposite. Her name is Gina Haspel. >> Yeah. >> Gina Haspel became the CIA director on a

[1:28:41] platform which she declared on TV that she was part of the women's liberation movement because now women women are on on my shoulders. She said I said give me a break. And of course, as John will confirm, she was in char was a proud proponent of torture. In fact, she went to torture sites and participated. >> That's right. >> The real truth should be known about Gina Haspel. >> We didn't call her bloody Gina Haspel for uh for no reason.

[1:29:14] She went out to that torture site just because she wanted to. She didn't have business out there. She wanted to actually watch Abaza being tortured. >> Disturbing. Thank you, Lou, for your insights with that. >> But the third person I need to mention is is Jeremy >> Kosmer, >> who is the the the wheels behind our our magazine. He works he can take an article from scratch in the morning and it's ready to print at night.

[1:29:46] >> Yes. >> He's a scholar. He's written five books. Uh, and I wish he were on the call. I don't know why he's not able to access the call, but anyway, he knowing Jeremy is to know a true hero. Thank you. >> I have to I have to second the comments too about well both both Chris and Jeremy. Without them, there would be no covert action magazine today. >> Yeah, absolutely. And Lou, I think uh Jeremy is teaching a class and that's

[1:30:17] why he wasn't able to make it because he's also a professor. >> So, yeah, he he does amazing work. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um Joshua, you have your hand raised. Hop in here. >> Um I I have another uh 911 related question for for John. Um u my my question is the official government investigations into 911 such as the 911 commission report and the 28 pages of the joint inquiry they talk about Abu Zuba and the United [clears throat]

[1:30:48] States government asserted he was I think number three or four in al-Qaeda. >> Then they later determined he was not number three or number four. My question is was he at all involved in al-Qaeda or a similar type of group before 9/11 because he was on the radar? Yeah, >> I think of Jordan and the United States before 911. So, I just wasn't sure if he's just a completely innocent person. No, >> he was caught up or if he had some sort of nexus to militant or terrorist activities. >> Yeah, he he had never formally joined

[1:31:20] al-Qaeda and he had never pledged feelalty to Osama bin Laden, but he worked along with al-Qaeda. He he created the al-Qaeda um safe house in Peshawar, Pakistan called the house of martyrs. He established the al-Qaeda training camps in both Kandahar province and Helmund province. And on a day-to-day basis, he acted more as al-Qaeda's um

[1:31:50] uh oh, what's the word I should use? Uh logistician. If you were tired of the fight and you wanted to go home, he would get you out of Afghanistan, he would get you a fake passport and a ticket home and just put you on the plane. If you were new and had just arrived in Pakistan, he would get you smuggled across the border and get you into the training camp. So, he had never joined al-Qaeda. He was not the number three. He had never pledged feelalty to Osama bin Laden, but he was doing some work.

[1:32:22] I don't believe that what he did um necessitates what the man has gone through. I I'm I've been very public about Abu Zuba because I captured Abu Zuba under the belief that he was the number three. We know from the Senate torture report that the CIA's position is that Abu Zubeda will never be released. And indeed, when he dies at Guantanamo, he is to be cremated and his ashes cast

[1:32:54] into the Caribbean. But I will tell you, I speak to his attorneys every once in a while, and the last time I spoke to to his lead attorney, I said, "Would he goes by Zayn Zay?" His name is Zay Alabadin Muhammad Hussein. His nom was Abu Zuba. I said, "Would you tell Zayn that I send my best regards?" And he said, "Oh, I told him we were going to speak today and he told me to send you his best regards."

[1:33:26] And I said, "You know, I feel embarrassed by that. I I feel embarrassed that this man's life is ruined and I had a major role in ruining it." Um, and he said that Abaza has some different memories of the night that I caught him. And we we chuckled over that. Uh, but he said that the day that I blew the whistle on the torture program, a friendly Guantanamo

[1:33:57] guard went up to his cage and said, "A CIA man went public today over what they did to you." And for the very first time, he felt hope. And he said that he hoped someday we could meet and have dinner as two free men, that we will have both done our time and we could meet as free men. And that really meant a lot to me. And then he told me something that was even

[1:34:29] better. He said that the Biden administration had finally come to the realization that Abu Zubeda was innocent of what we had insisted he had done and they had agreed to release him, but they couldn't find a country willing to take him. And then the Democrats lost the election. And so he's just stuck there in a cage

[1:34:59] for God knows how long. There's not even discussion right now about him being released. I I've become very friendly with another former Guantanamo prisoner, Muhammadu Slahi. There was a movie made about his his situation called The Moritanian. I actually just heard from him yesterday. And um every time I teach a class, I teach this class in Spain on the history of terrorism. And I always have Muhammadu uh lecture to the class for one of the sessions. He spent 14 years at Guantanamo. He was

[1:35:34] never accused of a crime. And finally we said, "Oh, wrong guy. We'll just let him go." But no country was willing to take him. Finally the Italians gave him permission to come for a year. What are you going to do for a year? So, he was able to apply for refugee status elsewhere. And now he's living in um in the Netherlands. He's married and has a young son. And I said to him recently, I

[1:36:06] said, "You know, Muhammadu, I can't help but to compare you to Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela." And he said, "Oh, come on." I said, "No, I'm serious." I said, 'I have never heard you raise your voice. I've never heard you utter a swear word. I've never ever heard you pity yourself. And he said, "This is the life that God gave me. There has to be a reason for it." And so I just embrace it. You He was in medical school when we snatched

[1:36:36] him. We snatched him from his cousin's wedding in Noaktch. He was he was in a medical school in Germany. And the reason he came onto the CIA's radar was he called a cousin of his in Beirut and he said, "Hey, your dad's really sick. You might want to call home. I know you haven't talked to him for a while." The cousin was somehow somehow had something to do with al-Qaeda. So we said, "Oh, if this one's

[1:37:06] calling that one and that one's calling this one and this one's calling Bin Laden, we got to grab the medical student." Well, he didn't have anything to do with al-Qaeda. He was a medical student in Germany, no less. Not like in, you know, Pakistan. And so, uh, now he teacher, he teaches and he lectures and he writes. He said, "I'm not a doctor. I'll never be a doctor, but this is this is the plan that's been laid out for me." So, he he embraces it. >> It's just bigger man than I am.

[1:37:37] >> Yeah. And I really think that has to do with the the Muslim culture and their faith >> and their understanding. You know, it goes so deep. I mean, we we saw what happened in Palestine when their their homes are being leveled to the ground >> and they're saying alhamdulillah. >> Praise God, >> you know, and and it's just like that is just next level. >> Seriously. >> Um yeah. So, we we have about 15 minutes and and I want to get into your insights, John. you know, right now the

[1:38:10] world seems very dark. I mean, what's going on in our country, what's going on around the world, um, it's it's heavy times. And so, I'm wondering, what gives you hope for the future and and what are some of the the responsibilities? It's a two-part question. you know, what do you see for the future generations and and how your generation, you know, th this audience right here, you know, how can you guys help guide the future generations to to

[1:38:44] have hope and and build the world we want to see? I It's a little complicated, but I I think you get my gist. >> I think so. It there's no easy answer to it. Um, and and I'm, you know, when it comes right down to it, I I'm a realist. Um, I know that people are going to choose between Democrats and Republicans. Um, the Greens are going to get a percent, the Libertarians are going to get one and a half%. But I'm heartened by the fact that there

[1:39:15] are so many young people now who don't feel any attachment to either of the two major political parties. And uh you know maybe we can go back to the situation that we had at the beginning of the 20th century or the the end of the 19th century where there were five or six viable political parties all represented in Congress. I read an article just recently about uh Solomon P. Chase. He was the secretary of the treasury under Abraham Lincoln. Over the course of his political career, he was a member of six different

[1:39:46] political parties. every time something pissed him off, he would just switch parties. And and that worked. You could do that. A 100 years ago, you know, we had we had a viable progressive party in this country or several progressive parties, the Bull Moose Party, the Progressives, the the Democratic Farm Labor Party in Minnesota, and I I might even be missing one uh from Wisconsin, right? I think I'm missing one, but we need to get back

[1:40:16] to that. And I think that the that the two political parties make it so easy for us to hate them and their genocidal policies, especially in in the Middle East, um that that maybe we will be able to put something together that shakes up the entire system. That gives me hope. Otherwise, you know, I don't I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but um when Ed Snowden went public with his revelations, I thought, "Oh, thank God. Well, finally they're going to see the truth and they're going to repeal the

[1:47:06] analyze uh the the way that US imperialism works and uh focuses on um cheap access to raw materials and labor and markets and all of that. And then of course, you know, they're going to pull in a CIA no matter what as as any country, whether it's the analyst side, but also the operations side. And ultimately what we have to do is get the message to the people and have um social movements that overthrow these kinds of interests to create a more multi-olar

[1:47:36] world where we can work in along the lines of what Leslie is talking about in solidarity like an internationalism where we work together to create um healthy uh societies around the world that that work in harmony and so on. all of that utopian ideology, right? So, what we need to do is build that kind of knowledge. And how do we do that? By doing exactly what we did

[1:48:07] tonight, was analyze the hell out of what the characters involve, but connect it to the structural forces, the larger structural forces, and then build social movements that undermine the interests of the power elite. So with that kind of like very utopian kind of idealistic language, John, what do you think? You know, you're you're you're really smart. You can figure this out. How can we do this? >> You know, I asked essentially the same

[1:48:37] question not too long ago of media Benjamin. Medadia Benjamin is of course the co-founder of uh Code Pink, the peace group Code Pink. And I do a lot with uh with Code Pink. And Media is a friend of mine. But one of the things that I've noticed about media is that she's always running at a level of 10. Right? From 1 to 10, she's always at a 10. And she loses time after time after time, but she never sees it as a setback. Never. She'll she'll get

[1:49:09] arrested and then the very next day you see her on C-SPAN getting arrested again on Capitol Hill. And >> she nudges the dominant narrative, which is perfect. >> She really is great. And I take inspiration from her that it's not an issue of winning or losing because certainly we're all going to get we're all going to, you know, give up after a while thinking that we just lose time after time after time. It's it's the issue of of influencing young minds

[1:49:41] or changing the narrative. And so, sure, maybe we we go to a demonstration and there are only a hundred people at the demonstration, not a thousand, but maybe we've touched those hundred people and then they're going to tell somebody and then the the next demonstration is a thousand or 10,000. And um you know, Media Benjamin, for those of you who don't know her, Medadia is probably 5 feet tall and 90 lb, maybe less than 90 pounds. Yes. And

[1:50:11] >> she [snorts] is one of the toughest people I have ever known in my life. Egyptian intelligence officers broke her arm and shoulder one time and and she didn't care. She spent the whole night in jail before they finally threw her out of Egypt and told her never to come back. She didn't care. And she goes back after time and time again after these things happen and just never gives up. And I think that's what we have to do is never give up. We don't know who we're influencing. We

[1:50:43] don't know what impact what positive impact we're having on other people um by by our own actions. And so I think we just have to declare victory and keep keep doing it. >> Yeah. And I I would like to add to that. You know, it's one thing to educate, but what the right is really good at is activating. >> Yes. >> Right. They educate and then they activate. And I think, you know, because we can see people like Trump, he knows how to activate Yeah.

[1:51:13] >> his base, right? Um, for example, Nick Fu Fuentes. >> Yeah. >> Love him or hate him. his base they are loyalist and they are active you know and so I think taking those pieces of yes education is so important but what's the action plan you know and how do we reach that goal and how do we know that we're meeting those milestones is incredibly important as well yeah >> I will say one of the complaints I have about um our our friends on the left is

[1:51:45] on the left we seem to always demand more ideological purity than the right does. Like, oh, I can't cooperate with so and so because he said something about trans people three years ago. It's like, come on, you know, we we we're our own worst enemies on the left. >> The purest the lefts are the purest in ideology, you know, and it's it's challenging. Yeah. We we had a conversation at the board meeting like that on Monday, but I won't get into it.

[1:52:16] Okay. [laughter] I won't get into it. I I have to say that Mike said, "Look, as long as they're not racists, >> Uhhuh. >> not sexists, >> and they're anti-imperialists." >> Yeah. >> I'm with you, Mike. >> Yeah. No, we we're having a debate about if we should have General Flynn as a guest speaker or not. And I'm like, he wants to defund the CIA, guys. Come on.

[1:52:46] I think he missed he misses on some one of those fronts if not two of them. >> He misses the mark though. It's okay. We can't win all the battles. >> John, what you what you talked about inspiration is very very very important. You're having a direct impact on young people. >> Gosh, I hope so. >> Oh, yeah. And it's it's it's stunning because I talk to them some and they they both watch your videos and you're inspiring. What >> I've been I've been so fortunate with these videos, Mike. You know, I would essentially just talk to myself for

[1:53:17] these videos until about a year ago. And for reasons that will probably never be clear to me, I somehow hit this sweet spot in the YouTube algorithm. >> And so my videos went from, you know, 500 views to 30 million views, some of them. >> I did one short that got 38 million views. People stop me literally every day of my life and they want to take a selfie or they want to, you know, an

[1:53:47] autograph. I'm embarrassed to even say the word. >> Come on, John. Tell us what happened on the airplane just recently. >> So, my cousin and I were flying to Greece and uh I got stopped at the airport. This guy is like, "Oh, I saw your video. I saw you on Tucker Carlson or whatever." and we took a picture. We get on the airplane and we take off. We're going to Athens and you know, you get to 30,000 ft and they level it off and they just hit the

[1:54:18] autopilot. The pilot comes out of the cockpit and he says, "Are you John Kuryako?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "I lay in bed at night and I watch video after video after video of you on Tik Tok." I said, "Thank you, but who's flying the plane?" And he said, 'Well, can we take a selfie real quick? I said, 'Sure.' So, we take a selfie and I look at my cousin and he says, 'You have got to be kidding me.' I said, 'Cuz, I'm telling you, I'm famous all of a sudden and I don't understand why,

[1:54:49] but it happens every single day. >> Wow. >> It's because there's something shifting, John, and the the information you're bringing is very important and very relevant, and people are paying attention. >> You hit a nerve. >> I hope so. Yeah. >> And very authentic. Very authentic. They're looking for integrity, John. >> People are looking for integrity and they find it in what you say. >> I hope so. Thank you. So, I was talking to Tucker Carlson the other day and I was joking to him. I said, "Tucker, in the in the chat on my podcast in the

[1:55:21] morning, people have started writing Carlson Kuryaku 2028." and he says, he goes, "Oh my god, in the chat on my podcast, they're writing Carlson Kuryaku 2028." >> I said, "Let's do it. I got nothing to lose." He said, "Well, stranger things have happened, but I don't think I want to run for president." I said, "Oh, okay. Next time." >> That's funny. Well, speaking of which, um, if anybody would like to chime in here, how can we proceed together? Um

[1:55:53] this has been a great uh coming together of everyone here tonight. Um how how would would anybody like to speak to how we might proceed together? Because one of the things that we need to do is we need to continue this work. We need to continue the work of covert action magazine that was established um some 47 years ago in 1977. uh we need to continue to expose um be it the the the individual personalities as well as the structural

[1:56:25] issues here. Um how can we proceed as a group? Would anyone here like to for example join what we're trying to develop is a peer-to-peer networking process to raise funds for covert action. meaning that each one of us could become quote unquote, for lack of a better word, an ambassador to to reach out to our friends and family and networks to raise money um for covert

[1:56:55] action so that we can continue this work. Uh would anybody like to speak to that? Um James. >> Yeah. Um one thought was considering this is the 250th anniversary of the founding of our country. um right >> connecting our past and and the ideals that the founding fathers uh you know in establishing this republic and the thoughts there and also you know like federalist papers and their fears tapping into some of those ideas in

[1:57:28] terms of you know [snorts] I think Benjamin Franklin said need a revolution every 20 years to update you know and this is this was something that was supposed to be uh just an idea to start start with it. I think some of the quotes there were it's you know it's a republic if we can keep it. It's the best worst idea that we have. Um and uh I think you know through our own history and you know other countries histories and the world's history you know we've have got gotten away from it and to uh a

[1:58:00] lot of the points made here you know um covert actions abroad and here at home have um shifted shifted thinking and we've kind of become [snorts] the greatest uh I've seen quotes where the greatest enemy of a state is an ignorant population and uh I I don't think we're ignorant just because you know we don't care. I think it's also oper you know operation mockingb bird and all that. Um from a [clears throat] networking standpoint I I can't help you there. I've uh um as I've kind of

[1:58:31] indicated, you know, I've been isolated. My networks have been cut off um purposely and I I've noticed that, but um trying to get the message out there and like you said um you know, major networks like to screaming and yell at each other, whereas, you know, Tucker Carlson's podcast and other podcasts, they're nice, thoughtful, quiet, calm conversations. >> Isn't that the truth? And and the last thing I'll say is um you know before my dad passed he said you know we we used

[1:59:02] to be able to debate all day all night our hearts out with each other and go grab a beer at the end of the day. Um it was never personal. It it was always knowing that the other person was coming from an idea that was what they thought was best uh for the country and there was always compromise and that's what that's how you know the republic was built. So I just wanted to add that. Thank you, James. Appreciate that. Yeah. So, as Chris mentioned, we we have a program where, you know, you can become an ambassador and or what? Give me the

[1:59:35] other terms. Chris, what it's like, >> a militant, a dissident, a an activist, and of course, a whistleblower. We've got different levels if you want to join and become that. And the key thing is for you to go out to your friends and networks and say we we need you to donate to Covert Action so we can do this work. >> Yeah. So if you're interested in doing that, please add your email to the chat. Um it's very simple. We just we

[2:00:07] essentially would need a picture and a little bio and then we create a profile for you and send a link and then you can put it up on your social media. you can send it on your email list and let people know you're a part of this incredible organization. Um, so if anyone's interested, please put your email into the chat and Bob, make sure to keep an eye on that so we can grab everyone. Um, now Lewis, you have your hand up and then I think we got to wrap things up here because we're we're um we're finishing up this wonderful

[2:00:38] evening. Thank you so much. Go ahead. >> I'll be very brief. I will take us into the weeds and the weeds in this case are that we need to pay finally pay our writers. >> Yes. >> People who write for the magazine. >> You know a lot of these people are hardworking people that don't have you know a slush fund don't have a you know any other means and so it's about time that we start paying them. That's why we need money. Thank you.

[2:01:09] >> Absolutely. That's a great point. And >> well, we do we do pay we do pay any writers who do ask and we do pay them. Uh I think the point is well taken Lou um after doing this for how many years, Lou? You've been doing this for like 50 years. It's like um you know uh we need to pay them more and we need to pay our staff more. And uh we just so that everyone knows we pretty much work on what do you call this? Labor of love type type wages. And um and so but

[2:01:40] whatever the point is is that we need to expand our staff and we need to do things like more videos. We need to get to the youth. We need like for example tonight with hopefully uh everyone's agreement. We won't use your videos or your your visual, but we'll use John's visual. Where's John? Is John still here? There he >> is. >> He's here. He's here. Yes. We'll use John's visual and we'll create not only a full video of this event with John's

[2:02:12] video as the focus, but what we're going to do is put it into shorts and then we're going to populate the Tik Toks and the Instagrams and everything like that and we will take the sound bites from this event and we will just uh do our best to carpet bomb these ideas to the youth and we will just continue doing that. So that we need uh your support to be able to continue that moving into 2026. And so in that event, in that in

[2:02:42] that context, I'd also like to say this was such a fun time with John and with everyone. I'd like to suggest that we do this again >> and you know, we continue this conversation. Um and >> why don't we also do it with Snowden? >> Yeah. >> Okay. All right. John. John. Okay. you you you threw out your little um your network. >> Yeah, John, that would be a great >> You dropped your little like, you know, h highpowered links. >> Let's get John Let's get Edward Snowden. Let's get

[2:03:12] >> What about for January? >> Yeah, we have a webinar coming up. >> We'd have to do it earlier in the day. He's seven hours ahead, but I think it's a wonderful idea. >> Yeah, let's get Thomas Drakekes. Let's get the Daniel H. Absolutely. >> Thomas Drake for next month. >> You know, I'm a little worried about Daniel Hail, too. He's just kind of vanished. >> He deleted his Twitter account. He moved out of uh out of um his attorney's uh basement apartment and he's just vanished. >> It happens to a lot of the the whistleblowers like for example John

[2:03:43] Stockwell. So what we need to do is create a supportive environment >> for whistleblowers. Exactly. >> For for many reasons in terms of those who have already whistleblown and those who will still. >> It encourages others. It encourages others. Yes, >> exactly. >> It does. >> All right. So, stay tuned. We are going to be reaching out to you after this event uh with links and requests and support and all that and then and then we'll come up with more more kind of

[2:04:14] like wonderful evenings um to continue this conversation. >> I want to thank Kayla for doing a great job >> organizing this and and leading it and you fabulous job Kayla. Congratulations. >> Great. >> Oh, appreciate it. Yeah, that I'm I'm a part of the next generation trying to keep, you know, the it's it's now on my back to get the reals and the [laughter] videos and the shorts and so we're we're keeping you guys alive. That's for sure. >> You're very tolerant of the last of this generation. [laughter] >> That's right. My nephews make fun of me

[2:04:46] because I'm from the last year of the baby boom generation. [laughter] >> Exactly. >> A good place to be. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Well, thank you all so much for being here and sharing your insights. Lesie, hearing about your your connection with Philip Ag, how how beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. And Joshua, your your insights on 9/11. Incredible. And you know, for for all the uh Josh, your your insights on how to get people activated. We

[2:05:18] really appreciated all of your comments and participation and and James, your family. And there was one other woman that Lou invited. Really fascinating hearing about her father. Um so so we appreciate you guys coming into this space and your support and generosity. And John, of course, it's always a pleasure. >> Pleasure is mine. This was fun. Thanks for taking all this time too. I appreciate it very much. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Great. >> As they say, no, right? That's right.

[2:05:48] >> Thank you. Stay strong, John. Stay strong. >> Thank you, bud. Thank you. Good evening, guys.