[00:00] His podcast it's a casted in touchstone production There was one point in Athens before I left Athens when I was on an operation with one of my colleagues He tapped me on the chest just in a friendly way and then he said hey and he tapped me harder You're not wearing a bulletproof vest and I said you know what man? I just don't give a shit anymore No, I'm not wearing a bulletproof vest I'm John Kiriakou. Welcome to Dead Rock. What makes a spy tick?
[00:37] This is another episode in our series. What makes this spy tick? What makes me tick? What made me do the thing for which I gained all that notoriety? That's our goal in telling you this story on this granular level It's one of the wonderful things about podcasting this medium gives storytellers like me the absolute freedom to tell our stories completely without any outside interference And because of the way podcast are distributed there really is a direct connection between me and you
[01:08] To that end I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your very kind reviews ratings Likes and shares, please keep it up. You doing your part really does help our little podcast grow Now it's time for me to do my part Not too long after my family returned from Athens to the United States as the dust was still settling around us I developed some photos that I'd shot in Athens They were just ordinary snapshots Well, they were ordinary snapshots when I took them in late June
[08:24] Telling her one time that there was a rule at the CIA that if you have been Incredibly accused of domestic violence You can't carry a gun if I couldn't carry a gun as an operations officer my career was Over so in the days after I caught her and this Stelios character She tried to get back at me by wrecking my career I said to the chief what did you tell her and he said I honestly couldn't make out what she was saying I
[08:55] Said Joanne the connections terrible. I can't understand you There is an office at headquarters that can walk you through the divorce process If you have any questions or concerns you can take it up with them. That's what saved me She never contacted them, but I've never raised a hand to a woman in my entire life Nor would I that is just not something that my father ever did it's not something that my grandfather's ever did It's just not in my nature But she was fully prepared to end my career by falsely accusing me of domestic violence
[09:30] She went back to Ohio and moved in with her parents She took the boys and moved in with her parents. I went to DC moved in with a buddy of mine He had a spare bedroom. I stayed with him for six weeks while I looked for an apartment All my stuff was still in Greece My colleagues had to pack out the entire household and put it on a ship and that took months To get my stuff back even her car. We had to abandon her car They had to drive it into a container and put it on a ship
[10:01] So I had to you know, try to make do with what I was able to to just buy with my first paycheck In order to see the boys I made a decision that I would drive to Ohio every other weekend And I'm proud to say that in the next 11 years I never missed a weekend except when I was stationed in pakistan after 9 11 It cost me $250,000 I went through three cars The toll collectors on the pennsylvania turnpike knew me by name and would welcome me and say hello
[10:35] When I would pick up my ticket and pay my toll in the days before all of that was automated My parents lived just barely on the pennsylvania side of the line So I would drive to Ohio pick up the kids drive back to pennsylvania Spend the weekend with the kids at my parents house and then joanne refused to drive the 26 miles to my parents house To pick them up. So at the end of the weekend, I would drive back to Ohio A half hour drop off the kids and then all the way back to virginia again
[11:08] Usually getting in around 11 30 at night. I did that for 11 years Joanne was being difficult because she realized that she could be difficult And there was almost nothing I could do about it. So I went to interview divorce lawyers A friend of mine made an offhanded comment. He said if you want the best divorce lawyer Interview all the divorce lawyers, but ask them if they were getting a divorce. Who would they hire? So I interviewed about six five of them said that they would hire a woman named mary jane stevens
[11:43] I had never heard of mary jane stevens It turned out that she was a divorce attorney in youngstown, ohio It would never have occurred to me to to look in youngstown for an attorney. My parents were in pennsylvania. I was in virginia And joanne was in warren ohio, which is a different county. It's trumbull county and youngstown is in majonin county So I made an appointment. I went to see mary jane stevens mary jane was a Hard talking hard drinking hard smoking woman in her sixties
[12:15] She literally lit one cigarette off the other you had to take an oxygen tank into her office with you if you wanted to breathe For the next hour. I immediately took a liking to her Two years after my divorce her secretary called me to say that Mary jane had been found dead at her home. She had had a heart attack She was single and just didn't show up for work on monday morning And where did I want them to send my box of files? I burst into tears Because that's how much I came to like and respect that woman
[12:49] She was a guardian angel when I really needed a helping hand. She really was She no longer represented me. I was divorced But she was just so important to me in that little slice of my life that I'll be forever indebted to her The divorce process took a lot longer than I thought it would only because I didn't realize that For me to file for divorce. I had to be a resident of Ohio I thought just because my ex and my kids were in Ohio that I could file in Ohio
[13:21] I kept telling joanne are we getting divorced or not? You're the one who said you wanted a divorce Why don't you file for divorce? One of the reasons why she didn't file for divorce is I sat with a calculator one day It was like my next to the last day in Athens I figured out how much I made divided by 26 pay periods and I calculated What I thought joanne would need to live I said look, I'm going to start sending you X amount of money every month, which I did immediately I wrote her a check that day and said this is what I'm going to do every month. I'm going to send you check It was within 25 dollars of what the court ended up calculating the amount to be and the judge even lauded me and said that she's done
[13:58] Thousands of divorces and that was the first time that she had ever seen somebody Calculate the child support pay the child support and then have the child support so close to what the court calculated it to be I had gone online. How long does it take to get a divorce in Ohio? It takes a year Okay, I waited a year and I called Mary Jane and I said it's been a year. Let's File And she said You can't file. I said, what do you mean? I can't file. You don't live in Ohio. Are you kidding me all this time?
[14:30] I thought we were just waiting for the one year cooling off period and I thought we'd file She said no joanne has to file the problem was that joanne liked how things were She was in total control of nearly everything But especially me By keeping the status quo going the money kept coming in and she pretty much got to live just how she wanted And me well the status quo meant that I couldn't move on I certainly couldn't think about starting a new maybe even a healthy relationship
[15:01] I couldn't even think about dating anyone That was the icing on her. I hate John cake And so she just never filed and if the money's coming in then why upset the apple cart? I said to mary jane, but what should I do? Should I file in virginia? She said, oh They'll take you to the cleaners in virginia. The laws are vastly different in virginia. You'll lose everything I would recommend that you write joanne a nice note and tell her that effective immediately You're cutting her child support in half I tried to be a little bit insulting in a passive aggressive way about it
[15:35] So what I did was I happened to be in new york and I stopped in at tiffanis and I bought tiffani stationary that said tiffani and company on it on the back of it I took my unnecessarily expensive tiffani stationary and I said dear joanne on the advice of council I am here by cutting your child support payments in half effective immediately best regards john She filed for divorce the very next day and I called mary jane and she said I told you And I said okay, so here we go
[16:06] Even that took longer than I expected because joanne challenged literally everything for example Could my parents pick up the kids? I had the kids from six o'clock p.m. On Friday to six o'clock p.m. On sunday. Well, I can't leave work until five It's a six hour drive. I can't get there till 11 and when I would get there at 11 She wouldn't answer the door. She would pretend to be asleep So I said well my parents are going to pick up the kids at six No, your parents can't pick up the kids at six. It's your child
[16:39] Visitation not your parents child visitation So I had to file a suit and then that had to go to court and we had to schedule a hearing and then the judge said No, his parents can pick up the kids at six And then I said Well, your honor, what would be really helpful is if my parents could pick up the kids at five and then we make it till five on sunday because She won't come to pennsylvania to pick the kids up I have to drive them back to ohio at six and then i'm not getting back to washington until 11 30
[17:13] And joanne says objection won't do it So I had to file another suit and then that went to a trial And I won I had to make a separate motion for joanne to come to pennsylvania to pick up the kids Literally everything that I needed she made me sue her. I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars I was fortunate in that I didn't have to pay her Legal fees and it was because she had so pissed off the judge At least I got away with that in any event
[17:44] We worked it out so that my mom and dad would pick them up at five on friday Take them out to eat and then back to pennsylvania and then I would get there at that point by 10 I could get there at 10 p.m. And then we had the weekend and then I could leave directly from my mom and dad's house at five o'clock on Sundays and then get back to washington by 10 instead of getting there by 11 30 so it helped a lot and then when 9 11 broke and I had to move to pakistan I wanted my mom and dad to be able to have the weekends with the kids
[18:14] And she said absolutely not your mom and dad can't have any access to the kids if you're not there So I had to sue her again The judge was very generous with me and let me do it online from pakistan with that terrible phone connection The judge ended up allowing my mom and dad to have the kids from 10 a.m. on sunday to 6 p.m. on sunday Literally everything was a fight unnecessarily. So it was like a siege Warren Ohio is a very small town the greek community and warren is a very big community the greeks all know each other
[18:47] Warren Ohio is where joanne was born and raised Her family as I said was from the island of hyos Warren is also the city where my mom was born and raised The greek community is enormous and it's very clearly divided about 75 percent of the greeks and warren are from the island of hyos in fact, there's a chapter of the National hean society that's in warren, ohio the first time I ever went to hyos They said are you greek-american? I said yes, and they said are you from warren and I said warren
[19:20] No, I'm not from warren. But how in the world do you know warren? And he said all the hyotas moved to warren The other 25 percent of the greeks were from roads Which was the earlier generation On the day that my divorce was final just to give you an idea of what the community was like on the Day that my divorce was final a bunch of greeks were sitting in the greek coffee house Where my grandfather spent seven nights a week smoking cigarettes drinking coffee and playing pina col
[19:50] And they started talking about me and my divorce And some old man who I had never met Said something about that kid's no good He abused that girl Just going on and on I have no idea who this old man was Well, there was a dentist who was also in the coffee shop. He was rhodian He stood up and said wait a minute. I've known that boy's family for the last 60 years They're an honorable family you take that back the hyoti stood up and the rhodian stood up
[20:23] And my cousin called me and told me that the next thing you know fists are flying I've never met these people and they're in a fist fight over whose fault my divorce was The police were called the police ended up just saying you greeks you need to calm down I ended up calling the dentist and thanking him He was a real gentleman and he said you know you and I have never met but I knew your father I knew your mother. I knew your grandparents. I know everybody in your family and when he started talking trash about you
[20:54] I knew that I had to stand up. It was incredible to me, but that's how contentious this divorce was completely unnecessarily so In the meantime work was actually going pretty well I had been told that I would have to sit in the penalty box for a year Which men you take this job that really nobody else wants You're probably not going to get promoted for a year But just tough it out and things going to turn around Well, the job that I got was in a training group where I was assigned to travel all around the world
[21:29] And to train foreign intelligent services in how to carry out counterterrorist raids How to break down the door how to grab people how to do interrogations how to disrupt terrorist cells It's understood that the cia has expertise in this area and for many of these countries They either can't or won't ask the israelis to train them In many of these countries having been colonies of the uk They just don't trust the brits to do it So they ask us to do it plus we have lots and lots of money more money than anybody else
[22:02] And so it doesn't cost them anything So I started traveling quite literally all around the world Doing these training sessions and these training sessions would last for weeks at a time My boss at the time. It's funny. I only met this guy on my first day on the job I had never encountered him in my career. He was completely new to me. We hit it off immediately I liked him. He liked me. We respected each other I went into his office that morning of my first day to introduce myself and he says
[22:33] So you beat the shit out of a pastry chef. What was that all about? I said, well, listen, it was just incidental that he was a pastry chef The guy was actually a real douchebag and he deserved a good beat down and he's like, yeah Well to tell you the truth. I actually did the same thing in yemen He wasn't a pastry chef, but he deserved a beat down and I gave it to him I laughed and I thought, oh, I'm going to get along just fine here. He said, what do you want to do in this job? Honestly, I'll do whatever you want me to do. I want you to be in charge of the middle east
[23:04] But in addition to that, we're a little bit short staff and one of your colleagues is an idiot I don't trust him to do the job. So I want you to take the middle east and two east asian countries I said, okay, I've never been in east asia, but that sounds like fun We didn't do this for every country in the world We did this for the countries that needed our help and with which we had good diplomatic and intelligence Relationships. This guy was such a good guy to me. I said to him on a man to man level I've got this situation with my ex-wife. He says, listen, whatever it is. Don't worry about it
[23:38] I have three ex-wives. I know what you're going through. I said Fightner over visitation and and I gotta be in Ohio to pick up the kids. He said, no worries. What are you asking me for? I said, I'm happy to travel anywhere in the world that you want me to travel But I need to be back by Friday night and then I can fly back out on Sunday night He said, fine. You just want to be back in the states every other weekend. I said exactly done In the year before 9 11, I made 24 international trips and I never missed a weekend
[24:13] And it was thanks to him Good guy The most important thing that happened to me in that year involved a guy that I call Adelaide. That's not his real name, but I'm not allowed to Disclose his identity. I'm not allowed to to disclose his nationality and I'm not allowed to disclose The names of the countries involved, but I can still tell the story I had a friend who was a station chief in the Middle East Not just a friend. He also happened to be orthodox. So we bonded over this shared faith
[24:46] He introduced me to my second wife. He called me one day and he said, what are you doing? I said, I am in the penalty box. I'm working in this branch in the counterterrorism center And he said, I was hoping you could do me a favor Sure, name it One of my guys has recruited a double agent The double doesn't know that we know that he's a double No, this sounds dangerous and intriguing and I'm an adrenaline junkie I need this constant rush this surge of adrenaline to stay interested in an issue
[25:21] He said the guy has been instructed by his handler to insist that I handle him I meaning the station chief and I said and you want me to come out there and pretend to be you Exactly. I said that sounds like fun Let me run it up the flagpole, but I'm sure they'll say yes So I went to my boss and I told him there's this double agent case out in the middle east and he said, yeah I heard about it cable came in and they're asking for you You want to take something like this on and I said, yeah, I said, I am trained out the wazoo in
[25:52] Not just counterterrorism ops, but advanced counterterrorism ops and surveillance and surveillance detection I was an instructor in the evenings doing surveillance and surveillance detection instruction for new hires I said, yeah, I'd like to do it a couple of days later. I got on a plane and went back to the middle east I flew to this country in the middle east The entire station was waiting for me prepared to brief me They had recruited an agent whom they believed was the founder and leader of the hezbollah cell in this country
[26:25] And they believed that he was secretly working for one of our greatest enemies He had been tasked by the enemy country to Allow the cia to recruit him so that he could report back to them On what the cia wanted him to collect what the cia's interests were the identities of cia officers This was a very high risk double agent operation My friend said look, it's just too dangerous for me to meet with this guy
[26:55] He's gonna out me to the bad guys and they're gonna kill me He said but if you pretend to be me and you're constantly flying in and out, they won't be able to get to you I said, yeah, dumb not a problem. We came up with an operational plan There were what were called protocols you call and you say the rain in spain falls mainly in the plane And the guy answers uh, mersi notes and dozi notes and little lambsied ivy And that means meet me at the marriott at eight o'clock I trigger a meeting just to be on the safe side I would never tell him what room the meeting was going to be in
[27:28] I would always say come up to the sixth floor or come up to the fourth floor or the eighth floor Whatever and I would meet him there at the elevator and I would give him a big bear hug and pat him down to feel for weapons I would tell him to walk down to this stairwell and then meet me in room 535 or 217 or whatever room I happen to have that way I could be sure he didn't have any weapons on him And I would get to the room before he would so he came to the room that first meeting I took off my jacket only because
[28:00] The air conditioner was broken and I was hot later on he reported back to the I'm going to call the enemy country The bad guys he reported back to the bad guys that I made a show of taking off my jacket to show That I didn't have a gun, but he knew that I had a gun on my ankle I didn't have any gun. There were no guns We had a security team in the lobby. They had lots of guns, but I didn't have any gun I actually felt very comfortable with this arrangement for several reasons number one
[28:31] At the time I was 36 years old. I was in the peak of health. This guy was 20 years older He was 50 pounds overweight. It became clear to me later in the process that he was in over his head We sat down. I asked him if he wanted a cup of coffee. Are you hungry? I can order room service whatever you'd like. He didn't want anything which is not unusual I said, here's how we're going to do our meetings in the first 60 seconds of our meeting We're going to do something called the mad minute in that 60 seconds
[29:01] I'm going to ask you if you arrived safely where you followed here Did you do a surveillance detection route? And then I'm going to tell you When and where the next meeting is going to be if for some reason the police break down the door And grab us both. We can talk our way out of it Somehow and we know when the next meeting is going to be The very first thing that you have to understand is that every time we meet you are going to have to have successfully Completed a surveillance detection route. I told him listen if we get caught it's no skin off my nose
[29:37] They're just going to expel me from the country I should add they weren't going to expel me from the country because we were doing this operation in concert with the host government So we told them absolutely everything that was happening And in fact as soon as the meetings were over I would go to the host government's intelligence service headquarters with my colleagues and do the debriefing I pulled out a map of the capital city and said this is how you do a surveillance detection route And I explained it to him Always be 100
[30:09] Percent certain that you're not followed here. Well, the truth was that we were following him from his house to the hotel Every single time he never did a surveillance detection route He always lied to me and told me that he did and in fact after the meetings He would drive directly from the hotel to the bad guy embassy to report on what I had said And he said I need to make sure you're the chief, right? And I said right You said you wanted the chief you got the chief
[30:39] He said you're roughly young to be a chief and I said I'm awfully good That's why I'm the chief and he accepted that summertime and living is easy. Am I right, john? That is one of the best parts of summer allen living really does feel easier You're about to travel good thing. You've got a couple of quince pieces going with you They are as relaxed and comfortable as I want to feel That's why whether I'm traveling or staying at home. I reach for the same quince go anywhere pieces again and again Quince focuses on well made essential. They're the t-shirt I reach for first every time in all seriousness
[31:15] I just bought another one today. They're my favorite t-shirts too And when the ocean breeze kicks in at night as it does here in la a quince lightweight cotton sweater is Sublime and perfect for travel too, which these days has all kinds of new challenges that impact how you pack So versatility really matters. You got to pack smart like a spy That's why a pair of quince's 100 european linen pants and a couple of linen shirts are coming with me They're breathable and easy to throw on sometimes. I add a t-shirt underneath for a whole other look
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[39:03] My colleagues and the host country intelligence officers burst in from the joining room And I said to him Did you really think I was so fucking stupid that I didn't know that you've been a double agent this whole time? Did you really think that I was such an amateur that I didn't know you came here to kill me today? I smiled at him and I said I'm offended frankly and he says Allah Akbar Allah Akbar God is the greatest God is the greatest Allah can't help you now my friend
[39:36] Well, I learned that day that one of the dirty little secrets of hotels all around the world is that people die in them every day You have to have a way of taking a dead body out of a hotel You can't do it through the lobby so they have large freight elevators and my liaison friends gave him a shot of demoral Which knocked him out. We had an ambulance waiting by we put him on a gurney covered him up like he was dead Took him down the freight elevator put him in the ambulance and took him to the host country intelligence headquarters In the meantime the bad guys security officers are in the lobby and they're starting to talk among themselves
[40:09] Something's wrong. He's been up there too long. We haven't heard any shots. What's happening? Why hasn't he called? Why hasn't he notified us? Why haven't we seen him? He was supposed to come down He was supposed to fire a shot. He vanished. He just vanished He woke up two hours later tied to a chair I said we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way We know who you are We've known from the beginning who you were. We know that you head Hezbollah here and we want the weapons All of the weapons you're out of business effective today
[40:43] Allahu akbar Fuck you. I fuck your mother. I was like, okay If that's how you want to play it my liaison friends just start wailing on him black eyes Bloody nose I had to play by the rules Which means I was not permitted to lay a single hand on this guy nor did I want to necessarily He and I both wanted something from each other He wanted to identify me and to identify other station officers that he could set up for assassination What I wanted from him was very simple. I wanted Hezbollah's weapons
[41:17] All of them. I wanted to put Hezbollah out of business He would not budge and no matter how badly My foreign friends beat him. He just would not talk. So I said guys guys listen We know where he lives. I can call in a locks and picks team We can pick the lock and we could just go in the house The house was big enough to to maintain a cache of weapons Maybe the weapons are just in the house. Let's just go in the house and they said we can't
[41:47] He's got a Filipino maid and she never ever leaves the house. So we can't go in there I said, okay, here's what we do. He lives in a cul-de-sac. The cul-de-sac has six mansions in it Let's just declare Let's say a gas leak We'll say there's an environmental emergency and we have to evacuate the cul-de-sac and they said Nope, can't do that. We don't have underground gas lines in this country. We use propane My god, do I have to think of everything?
[42:19] Bring an 18-wheeler full of propane We'll spill some propane in the street then we'll declare an environmental emergency and we evacuate the cul-de-sac An hour later this 18-wheeler pulls down the cul-de-sac I get out there and I turn this enormous wheel on the back of the truck Propane's gushing out all over the street Then I close the wheel and I said fine now declare an environmental emergency They call the fire department the fire department comes they close off the cul-de-sac and they evacuate all the houses
[42:54] Now was that really that hard? Seriously, we have a locks and picks team on standby. It takes them five minutes to pick the lock They've got the stethoscope and they're listening to the tumblers and whatever they pick the lock. We go in there We find an enormous gun safe Triple the size of any gun safe I've ever seen for sale here in the united states Okay, that's got to be the weapons cache the locks and picks team starts on the gun safe This was tough. This was a good 20 or 30 minutes to get into this thing. They finally open it and it's completely
[43:30] empty except for one piece of paper I grabbed the piece of paper and it was like out of a cartoon like out of a bugs bunny cartoon It was a childlike map and it's got this x and it literally says over the x the weapons are here With an arrow to the x what was written in arabic was drive to this village And then get out at this mile marker or kilometer marker walk south
[44:02] 150 meters and make a right at the palm tree And then go 50 meters and make a left at the big rock and go 120 meters And there was a bunker in the desert and it was full to the ceiling with weapons and not just weapons but explosives Rocket propelled grenades landmines Ammunition I thought my liaison partners were going to start crying. They were so happy
[44:32] We had to requisition Trucks to come from intelligence service headquarters to take possession of all this ordinance They ended up destroying it in a controlled explosion out in the desert But we literally put hezbollah out of business that day Years later after I had left the cia I ran into one of the guys from the station at a shopping mall In tyson's corner of virginia. We're standing there laughing and talking and catching up
[45:03] I said whatever happened to the guy abdel azim. Oh, he's still in prison I said it's been 20 years and he said he's gonna die in prison word quickly spread Among people in the know in that country's government what I had done I was invited to the wedding of the crown prince I had never even met the crown prince But I was invited to his wedding as a guest of honor Here we are 25 years after I did this operation and as recently as
[45:34] Yesterday I took a call from a member of the royal family Many members with whom I'm still in touch because they will never forget what I did and they're still appreciative after 25 years I'm touched by it. I say all the time. I love the middle east I love eric history, eric culture, eric literature, eric poetry, eric language, eric food I love everything about it. They appreciate that and I appreciate that they appreciate it And so for a little while at least during the spring and the early summer of 2001
[46:07] My life found something of a rhythm work. See the boys work. See the boys work. See the boys Summer rolled around the divorce decree gave both joan and me six weeks of summer holiday with the boys I got the kids every other Christmas and she got the kids every other Christmas and every other Thanksgiving and every other Easter or whatever. So it was all 50 50 The only provision was if she took the kids out of Ohio overnight She had to inform me in advance seven days in advance that she was going to do that
[46:37] And if I took the kids out of virginia when they were with me, I had to give her seven days notice We couldn't turn down each other's vacation plans unless there was a legally Binding reason to do it. My mom said let's take the kids to disney world. It's been a rough year for everybody We'll go to florida. We'll go to orlando Have a good time. We have family down there anyway My dad was very much an old school kind of guy. My dad loved AAA
[47:08] He would always go down to AAA and get triptics and get hotel recommendations and stuff that old men used to do He happened to be down at AAA. He saw these package deals for disney world and said, hey, this is a great idea They do all the planning. You just decide. Do you want the diamond treatment? The gold the silver the bronze treatment So I wrote him a check he went down there and bought tickets for all of us the hotel disney property rental car flights
[47:38] Everything this was at least a month in advance I only had to give joanne seven days notice, but I told her a good three or four weeks in advance Hey, we're going to take the kids down to to disney world. It may have triggered joanne that I was making plans to have fun and Joanne never really liked my parents very much She hated that the kids were having a good time with my parents and I think she just Decided that she was going to throw a wrench into things without really thinking about the consequences
[48:12] And I'm not wanting to back down when faced with the fight We were going to go to disney on saturday morning friday after work I get in the car and I start driving to pennsylvania My parents go over to ohio to pick up the kids and my mom calls me from the car while she's parked in front of Joanne's parents house and she said to me I don't want to panic you But we're at the house They're not here and it looks like there hasn't been anybody here in weeks
[48:46] I said, what are you talking about? She said the grass hasn't been cut There are no lights on in the house. There's nobody here And I said she's kidnapped the kids In the next episode being a trained spy comes in extremely handy in the search for my two sons My work situation like everyone's was about to change profoundly though Well beneath the surface a terrorist named osama bin laden was already hard at work planning an operation that would truly stum the world
[49:21] 9 11 surprised the cia, but not because we didn't expect it We'll do a deep dive into what the cia knew before 9 11 And what they did and didn't do with that information You won't want to miss it to that end. Please don't forget to like review rate and share the podcast It helps more than you know and if you have the time, please check out my other podcasts That's deep program monday through friday on both youtube and rumble And deep focus twice a week on youtube
[49:51] Till next time i'm john kiriyaku Dead drop is written by john kiriyaku and alan kats cost art and touchstone productions produces the podcast And john kiriyaku alan kats and mic mechanic are its executive producers This podcast it's a casted and touchstone production