[00:06] History [music] isn't just what happened. [music] It's what still matters. [music] The decisions, the turning points, the stories that shape our present. This is history told [music] forward. conversations that looked back to better understand [music] what comes next.
[00:41] Today's guest is a man who lived on the front lines of intelligence, integrity, and [music] consequence. John Kiryaku spent 15 years with the CIA. First as a Middle East analyst and later as a counterterrorism operative who led operations in hotspots like Pakistan in the years after 9/11. But it wasn't just his time in the field that made headlines. It was his courage to speak out. In 2007, John became the first US
[01:12] official to confirm and publicly denounce the CIA's use of waterboarding, a move that cost him his career, his pension, and his freedom. He was charged under the Espionage Act and served 2 years in federal prison, becoming a prominent [music] whistleblower in the post 911 era. Since then, he's become an author, journalist, and fierce advocate for transparency, [music] ethics in government, and the rights of whistleblowers. His story is one of
[01:44] sacrifice, resilience, and an [music] unwavering commitment to truth. Please welcome John Curyaku. John, why don't we start a little bit? Give everybody a little bit of a a background. >> Sure. I uh I spent uh 15 years in the CIA. Uh the first half of my career in Middle Eastern analysis, the second half in counterterrorism operations. Uh I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program, which came back to bite me later. But before it bit me, I uh went
[02:15] on to be the chief investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And then uh the Obama administration fell on my head, charged me with five felonies for going public about the CIA's torture program. Did two years in prison. And um since getting out, I've become an author, journalist, commentator, whatever you want to call me. I've got a bunch of books and I'm kind of entrepreneurial. So, uh a little bit here, a little bit there and you can put together a living.
[02:46] >> Yeah, absolutely. This this episode is going to be kind of dear to me because uh um when I was in and and overseas, you know, I spent 68 months total between Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and >> garden spots. >> Yeah. The the awesome places, [laughter] but um you know, I really developed a hatred for for the people. I didn't really even look at them as people. And uh since I've been podcasting and and learned a little bit more about PTSD and
[03:18] and trauma and so forth, it has opened up uh some uh rabbit holes that that I have gone down. You know, one like does the people that we fought, do they have PTSD? Is there somebody over there that is struggling like we do as Americans? And as I've learned, so are is the Australian forces, the the British forces. they've all been on my show and and they've all talked about it as well. So, I I've looked at things a little bit different and it's made me reook at the
[03:48] the Marine situation at their prison camp and and the things that they were doing and uh you know, they're just Geneva Convention is is a tough issue for us to deal with. It it does kind of handicap if you're following the rules when you're fighting other people that don't play by rules. However, um you lose a little bit of your soul if you don't follow it with either. So, I think this episode's going to be great to get into it. So, so let's let's dig into this a little bit. Let's start out with >> what uh what brought you to the uh the
[04:20] CIA? I mean, how did that come about? >> Well, it's kind of a funny story. When I was 9 years old, I told my parents that I wanted to be a spy when I grew up. And the only the only knowledge I had about spying came from Mad Magazine from Spy Versus Spy, you know, seriously. >> Okay. >> And then then when I was 16, I told my dad specifically that I wanted to be a spy in the Middle East. I was fascinated by the Middle East as a kid. >> Wow. And then when I was in grad school,
[04:50] my grad school adviser turned out to be a CIA officer undercover as an academic and he uh recruited me into the CIA. And so I started on um Iraq. Uh I was the Iraq leadership analyst and um I had a degree in Middle Eastern studies. I had a master's degree in in legislative affairs, but the focus was on policy analysis and uh and I I got lucky a
[05:21] couple of times. My career took off. Then I got a little bored after a couple of overseas tours. I was tired of analysis. I switched I made a very unusual switch to counterterrorism operations. After 911, I became the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan. And um and uh then I finished off my career first as the executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director for operations and then um as the counterterrorism officer
[05:52] at the United Nations. >> Wow. Yeah. What a what a story to get to [laughter] the CIA. Well, but and even before you ask me a question, I have to say in your intro, you cut right to the heart of what every single one of us goes through. There are so many parallels between what CIA officers go through and what what military, you know, our our war fighters go through. And so often it's either overlooked or
[06:23] it's out and out ignored. >> Yeah. >> And then we end up suffering for the rest of our lives. Yep. You know, um, a lot of a lot of people don't realize this and and I've never talked about it on on my show. Um, I did 10 years in the the special ops community and and I'm going to tell you something. When those uh intelligence guys um find out that the information they got was bad and somebody potentially could have even got hurt, they don't even have to get hurt. Just it could have happened. >> Yeah. >> They take it serious.
[06:53] >> Oh, yeah. I mean, it sticks with them and and you know, in my unit, we've lost people and and I know for a fact, um I won't say names or anything, but I do know for a fact there's a person that still lives with that um to this day about uh um the people we've lost and and they take it serious. Um >> Oh, yeah. They do. >> PTSD and trauma and everything doesn't necessarily mean you had to be on the battlefield pulling triggers. You know, it it takes everybody all the way around to to make us the the fighting force
[07:25] that we are. >> Absolutely true. You know, one of my best friends before we started recording, you and I were talking about um where you've served and and you mentioned Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Well, my best friend from high school uh joined the military as soon as we graduated from high school, and he ended up making full colonel over the course of a of a long career. Uh he he ended up with a college degree in environmental science. So they made him they put him in charge of the of the burn pits in both Iraq and Bosnia. And
[07:59] we used to jokingly call him the garbage king of of Iraq. >> But those burn pits gave him a very rare brain cancer, a glyopblast, and he died at 46 years old. His dad was a veteran of the Second World War and he just passed away. He was almost a hundred years old. But he told me two, three years ago that not a single night went by that he he didn't have a
[08:29] nightmare about being on the battlefield in Belgium or in France in 1942 and wake up screaming. 1942. That's how long lasting this PTSD was. And they didn't know, they didn't call it PTSD back then. They called it shell shock. >> Yep. >> But this poor guy never had a a real night's sleep for the rest of his life. >> No. I I you know, at the end of the day, back then, they they they put a label on it, but they didn't treat it. There was
[09:01] there was no >> no help, no treatment. Um even the stigma about mental health back then was >> was similar to what it is today. It was frowned upon. >> Yes. >> And you know, I watched the units as as I as I was getting out and uh >> you know, I never admitted I was having issues, but all the way up to the point where I was getting out, I was already thinking about taking my life and I hadn't even retired yet. >> And uh I watched because the things that
[09:32] the the military did for us was literally check the block type stuff. you know, they brought in civilian counselors and they said, "Hey, nobody will ever know that you talk to them. They don't talk to the chain of command. Um, if you're having problems, go see them." But then they put their office right next to the commander's office. [sighs] >> So, I mean, [laughter] nobody went I mean, that was the easiest job you could have because you had no customers, you know? >> Well, you know what? We had a similar situation at the CIA when I first joined. Uh my boss was walking me around
[10:03] the old headquarters and then the new headquarters building and he was pointing out, you know, that's where the cafeteria is, that's where the office of medical services is. And in the uh lobby of the new headquarters building, there's like a glass enclosed atrium. And he said that's where you go if you want to buy baseball tickets or football tickets or, you know, you have questions about your insurance or what. And they have different windows, you know, sports tickets and insurance. And then at the
[10:35] end there was a window for, you know, if you needed to talk to a counselor, you had some PTSD, you know, there's something that's bothering you. He said, "Let me give you some friendly advice. Don't ever go to that window." And I said, "Why not? If it's supposed to be, you know, to help you." And he said, "Because at the CIA, that office that's been set up to help people falls under the deputy director for counterintelligence,
[11:06] not medical." >> Oh, wow. >> Counter intelligence. And he said, "They're going to freeze your career and then they're going to throw you out." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's terrible. >> You know, uh I I watched it happen multiple times. uh soldiers um say that they're going to take their life and and we put them on suicide watch and and they literally will force soldiers to keep 24-hour guard on them knowing that
[11:37] it it pisses them off because now all weekend long we've got guard duty on somebody and and the way they're treated afterwards is over with. you're now a dirt bag and and any detail or anything that comes up, you're going on it. And >> it it it is not a fortunate thing. So, you know, we talked about you uh um getting there and and the amazing vacation spots you got to go to like Pakistan [laughter] and Iraq. But uh you know um what what
[12:10] was the environment like the inside in inside the CIA uh immediately following 911? Did did like the world just changed for you guys? >> Oh my god. It couldn't have changed any more than it did and and I I can encapsulate it in into three words. The morning that I was leaving for Pakistan, my boss came up to me and shook my hand because we knew what we were getting into. you know, our our chief had had given us this speech saying, "We're at war. We all have to fight. Not all of us
[12:41] are coming home. Go with God." My my boss came up to me and he shook my hand and he says, "Kill them all." And I said I said, "Really, John? We've gotten to that point already?" And he just looks at me and he says it again, "Kill them all." And so I I went to the airport and I was determined not to kill them all. to do, you know, the best as I could. My job was to capture these guys, not to kill them. >> Um, you know, that was another that was another office that did that. So, uh,
[13:13] yeah, I did my best, but it it changed everything. And not not only did it change everything, it changed everything permanently. Um, the deputy director for operations for whom I worked was fond of saying that that the job of the CIA was actually very simple. The job of the CIA was to recruit spies to steal secrets and then to analyze those secrets to allow the policymaker to make the best informed policy. >> Y >> after 9/11, the CIA became a
[13:46] paramilitary organization whose job it was to kill, capture, and render anyone who could pose a threat to the United States. >> Wow. Mhm. >> Yeah, I did. I I I knew very little about the CIA's role. I obviously, you know, was in the same compounds where there was all sorts of different forces, you know, and uh I obviously I didn't know what they did. They came, they
[14:16] went, you know, they they hop on our aircrafts and leave and we pick them up later and bring them back. And >> and that was uh the way it is. But what I can say is it's not like James Bond. It isn't like what you see on TV. >> No. >> The the roles they play, especially all the way down to our SCOPS teams at a at a much smaller scale, are are doing real similar things. Like you said, the the idea is to recruit somebody. um whether that be uh pictures that you've taken,
[14:48] shaken their hand, which could be nothing more than an introduction, but now it looks like they're working with you and threats and stuff like that to to be done. Those same things are used against our our soldiers. Those same things happen on our soil in a bar in America and and there's, you know, court cases out there where people have gotten caught. You can you can see it for yourself. It's not secrets, but uh um those things are hard to come back from and and so when you get over there, how
[15:21] how is it that that you start setting up and and figuring out okay, what is the best way? Because I mean Pakistan has a border if you call it a border, but you really you can walk across at any point. >> Yes. So >> that's what made this whole war on terrorism so difficult was trying to control a country that had no borders. >> And remember those borders were drawn by the British. >> Yeah. >> And they didn't consult anybody. They just did it in London with a pen and just going down the the map. So you're
[15:53] you're exactly right. It's it's exceedingly difficult. what I did when I first got to Pakistan, like literally I I had been in Pakistan for four hours and I I go to the station chief uh to introduce myself and tell him, you know, that I've arrived and the first thing he said to me was that he wanted me to come up with a standard operating procedure for taking down an al-Qaeda safe house. >> Okay. >> So, I had had all the training and then I I did the advanced training. We called
[16:25] it um advanced counterterrorism operations. I had advanced counterterrorist driving. I had desert driving. And we I did everything the CIA had to offer. I had taken it. Weapons, every kind of weapon. And so I sat down at my desk with a legal pad and I thought, well, I'm going to walk through this. What do I need to do? So I wrote 0200 at the top of the paper because I would want it to be dark. I would want everybody to be asleep. uh because the element of surprise was so important.
[16:57] And then I wrote a list of things I needed. I needed extra weapons, ammunition, encrypted comms, uh walkietalkies, battering rams, night vision goggles, all kinds of stuff. I went on to galls.com, which is a police supply house in uh Kentucky. bought $50,000 worth of stuff, put it on my CIA uh uh credit card, and about a week later, it all arrived in station. So,
[17:27] administratively 911, this was so soon after 911 that 911 was still an open criminal investigation. So, you had to bring the FBI in. We had a small FBI contingent in Islamabads. We would bring one or two of them on. And of course you are in Pakistan and it's the Pakistanis country so you of course have to invite them. >> Yeah. >> Um and we got a tip that there was an al-Qaeda safe house there in Islamabad. So we said okay let's give this a try just see how it works out. 0200 we bust down the door with the battering ram and
[17:59] we grabbed these two kids. Two Tunisian kids both 18 years old. They both burst into tears. >> Yeah. And one of them asked me if he could call his mom >> to tell him that he had been captured. Tell her that he had been captured. I said, "No, you can't call your mom." >> So, we just took him to the jail. And I remember saying to the guys, "Well, that was remarkably easy." Okay? You know, we got the bulletproof vest and all geared up and it was easy. And so another thing that I had done when I
[18:30] first arrived is I I went to the other friendly countries uh embassies to introduce myself as the CIA counterterrorism chief. And so I said to to each of them, if you have any addresses, lay them on me. We can hit them jointly or we can do it on our own, whatever you want. So sure enough, I got a call from a friendly Arab intelligence uh station chief. He was kind of a dandy, you know, he never wanted to get his hands dirty, but he was perfectly happy to give us
[19:01] the information so we could get our hands dirty. >> Yeah. Sounds like >> Yeah. Yeah. That that uh environment. >> Yeah. >> Yes. They're the same way, you know, we are neutral. >> Yeah. Right. Which means they just pay everybody. >> Correct. So um so we broke down that door a week later and we actually caught some serious people. We caught a member of Egyptian Islamic Jihad which of course had merged with al-Qaeda in 1995.
[19:33] But before that they had killed President Sadat in a you know globally televised assassination during a military parade. So, this was a big catch. And uh and we caught a couple of other mid-level al-Qaeda people. And we started doing this, you know, on the regular. Several times a week, we would hit a hit a safe house and and grab people. And that that continued until March of 2002 when we did a major raid, 13 sites simultaneously. And we caught
[20:05] Abu Zubeda. We caught the commanders of both the um the Daruna camp and the um Kandahar camp and uh and dozens and dozens of other people. So it it went very well for us. >> Yeah. Well, you answered a question that I never knew the answer to before. Um you know, when I was over there, I had seen FBI agents, too, and it really didn't make sense to me. >> Yeah. Like, why are they why are they here? >> Yeah. It it I was just kind of like
[20:35] standing there looking at him for a second like man I guess they brought in everybody. [laughter] You know almost everywhere I served overseas almost had an FBI presence. >> Yeah. But normally the FBI presence was there to catch, you know, the American who's laundering money in that country or the American who's not paying his taxes or the American who's doing child porn. >> Yeah.
[21:05] >> For FBI agents to go on nightly, you know, counterterrorism raids, that was highly unusual and uncomfortable for everybody. >> Yeah. I mean, 20 year career, that was the only time that I've ever even seen them on deployments was was after 911. >> That was it. >> So, it it definitely uh it definitely changed the uh the world for us. >> And you know, I worked in one huge
[21:37] station. It had I don't know 50 60 people >> and the FBI contingent was three agents and a secretary. So, that kind of gives you an idea of how unusual it is for the FBI to be overseas. >> Yeah. So, you know, I I think you learned uh something real quick on that that house that you took down. You know, the enemy isn't always what we we picture the enemy to be. >> I said to my colleagues that night, I said, "This is the fearsome al-Qaeda.
[22:09] This is what we're so so so scared of. This is this is a child." >> Yeah. Yeah, these guys are children. >> Yeah. >> Now, of course, you know, we we weren't talking about Bin Laden and Zoahi in that conversation, but for the most part, Yeah. that's what that's why they fell apart so quickly. >> Yeah. >> They were just children. >> Yep. They they they were forced soldiers. That's, you know, they were >> they were abducted, taken, maybe they were orphaned from
[22:41] >> parents dying or whatever. and they were put in camps and and taught to fight and and >> that's it >> a a cause >> and you let me add something um almost to a man they told the same story these kids they said that I mean they were generally 18 19 20 years old >> they couldn't read or write >> they were from isolated villages in whatever countries they came from um had no job training or job skills and
[23:13] no jobs. >> Yeah. >> And and they wanted to get married, right? They were at marriage age. But what man would want his daughter to marry this kid who can't read, can't write, can't work, and is probably going to beat up his daughter? >> Yeah. >> And so the local imam from the village would go to these kids and say, "What are you doing here? Why do why do you want to stay in in this village? You should go to Afghanistan and make jihad against the Americans, and we'll give you $300 a month. and if you're martyed,
[23:43] we'll give your parents $500 martyrdom bonus. And they said, "Okay." These guys couldn't find the United States on a map. They had never read the Quran. They didn't know anything about US foreign policy. They were thinking, " $300 a month? It usually takes my dad a year to earn $300." >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it is uh um not a a good picture, you know. Yeah. >> When when when civilians hear us talk
[24:16] about how children are are used as shields and and everything else, >> I it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to see it. >> Yeah, you can say that again. >> It affects you completely different. So, let's get into kind of where we discover about the torture and and stuff. So, Abu Zubayada, I know I said his name, his last name wrong. >> Zuba. >> Zuba. Okay. And the the torture program.
[24:48] Yeah. How how did this all come about? Because I mean, this was a a pretty uh high target. We're no longer talking about kids anymore. >> Yeah. We we believed at the time that Abu Zuba was the number three in al-Qaeda. That turned out to not be true. He was working with al-Qaeda, but he had never joined al-Qaeda and he had never pledged feelalty to Osama bin Laden. But Abisa was sort of a an al-Qaeda fixer. If you wanted to start fighting, he would get you into
[25:19] Afghanistan. If you were tired of the fight and you wanted to go home, he would get you out, get a fake passport, and get you back to your home country. He founded the House of Martyrs, the the al-Qaeda safe house in Peshawar, Pakistan. He founded the two training camps in Kandahar and in Helman province. So, he was a bad guy. He he did a lot for al-Qaeda. >> Mhm. >> Um but he was not the number three. And uh [sighs] in the months leading up to the capture,
[25:51] he was captured in March of 2002. CIA headquarters, the leadership at CIA was preparing for what to do once we caught one of the top three or four and they were convinced to adopt this so-called enhanced interrogation program which was really a reverse engineered SER program. >> Okay, >> that you know we've always acknowledged as as torture. And and keep in mind we
[26:22] had actual laws on the books that forbade us from doing exactly the techniques that the enhanced interrogations uh called for. >> Yeah. >> So there were two contract psychologists um uh James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen and uh they had been contractors with the Air Force. They reverse engineered Seir, presented it to George Tennant at the CIA, were paid $108 million
[26:54] and um and they flew out to the secret site. Wizedo was the first HVT highv value target that we had captured. And so they sort of experimented on him. But you know how these things go. They're cowboys and this is a slippery slope. and the next thing you know, you're doing all kinds of things that the Justice Department never said you could do >> and it just got worse from there. >> You know, I think one of the main reasons why why it's not recommended is
[27:25] is it taints the the um confessions, you know. >> You bet it does. >> Not Not only now are you getting the information you want, but now you don't even know if it's true. No, >> because >> and it's likely not because the prisoner is telling you anything that he thinks you want to hear just to get you to stop torturing him. >> Yeah. It it it it could become a situation where it's even more dangerous because now you're you're acting on this
[27:57] information that that may or may not be true and and it it puts operators in a situation where they're not really 100% sure what they're going to walk into. That's exactly right. >> That's exactly in the meantime, you're bogging down your analysts >> with with hundreds or thousands of hours of garbage that that the prisoner has given you and this team of analysts that could be doing important work is sorting through all this trash trying to figure out what's true and what's not true. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, it's it's
[28:29] tough, you know, um if you don't have reliable sources, you know, it's much better. I I think the interpreters programs was was much better where by being a interpreter it it eventually could lead to you having a life in America and uh that motivation was a lot more effective than I think uh you know torturing people. So >> oh my god I agree. How uh if if you can talk about it, how did how did you
[29:00] discover all of this was was happening? Because I assume once the target was captured, they were turned over to another team. >> Yes. >> And put in a a prison behind 800 walls. >> Correct. Correct. So, um when my tour ended in is Islamabad, [clears throat] I went back to CIA headquarters. I became the chief of counter intelligence uh for the Osama bin Laden unit called Alex Station. And uh I was in the cafeteria one day and a colleague of mine came up to me and said that he was glad he ran into me and uh would I like
[29:32] to be certified in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. And I had never heard the term before. So he explained to me what this meant and I said, "Man, that sounds like a torture program. What are you talking about?" >> And he said, "No, the ju the uh the um Department of Justice signed off on it and the president approved it. It's not torture." I said, "Ah, let me think about it for an hour." So, I went up to the seventh floor, the executive floor of the CIA. There was a senior, very senior um officer there for whom I had
[30:04] worked 10 years earlier in the Middle East. And uh I went in and asked his advice and he told me to run screaming from the room that this was a torture program. It was going to be a slippery slope right to prison and just get away from it. And so I declined. But then because I had captured Abuzu Beta, I got promoted and bumped up to be the executive assistant to the deputy director for operations. And in that position, I saw literally everything that the CIA was doing around the world.
[30:36] >> Wow. >> And that was just when the torture the actual torture sessions began. >> Wow. So So yeah, your your eyes now get opened up like like you're the brand new guy again. Yeah, you're >> coming in and seeing things that that doors are opening that you never even knew existed. >> Oh, I'll tell you. I had an old friend from analysis who asked me, "So, so how is it up there on the seventh floor?" I said, "It is the most fascinating job I've ever had in my life." And he said, "But don't you feel bad that you're not
[31:08] making a contribution like you used to in analysis?" And I said, "Buddy, you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about." >> Wow. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean all all agencies like this I you know and I I would say even all the way down to special ops and military they work off of a siloed type uh system. >> Absolutely. >> You know there's a reason why they've added in that part of the the documents. Not only do you have to have the clearance but a need to know that
[31:39] information as well. You know just because you you have a clearance high enough to read something but have no need doesn't mean you get access. And I think that happens a lot even in our world. You know, I I was at the very low level. I was with the 160th and uh you know, I couldn't tell you half the stuff that other >> No. >> departments was doing. >> No. And it's the same at the CIA. I don't have the foggiest idea what the guy next to me is doing. I I wrote in my first book when when we turned over
[32:09] Abazuba to the rendition team. >> Um one of the guys on the plane uh was a friend of mine >> and uh so you know it's 4:00 in the morning and and the plane lands and we're loading up onto the plane and he said so who's your prisoner? And I said oh man I'm so sorry but you don't have a you don't have a need to know. And he said no no that's cool. And I said where are you taking him? And he said, "Oh, dude, I'm sorry, but you don't have a need to know." And I said, "Yeah, of course you're right. I don't." >> Yeah.
[32:39] >> And so that was it because my job was to catch him and put him on the plane. And the other guy's job was to fly the plane from point A to point B. And that was it. >> Yeah. >> Don't ask questions. >> Yeah. And and as as we're going to get into it, you know, the asking questions can lead you into to areas that that you're not sure you wanted to be in. >> Got that right. >> So, let's get into the the whistleblowing. Um, so now you're you're you're got a penthouse view of of the
[33:12] CIA and and you see this stuff going on. Um, what led you to deciding I've got to say something? [gasps] >> I objected from the get-go. They asked 14 people uh to be to go through the training to torture these guys. And I'm I'm sorry to say that I was the only one who said no. Um, and it's not just that I had a a moral problem with it. I believe strongly and correctly in retrospect that it was just simply
[33:44] illegal. >> Mhm. >> So in the intervening years, I've done a lot of research into this. I like to think that I'm, you know, one of the country's leading experts on this very narrow issue. We have a law in this country called the Federal Torture Act of 1946. And it specifically bans exactly those techniques that we were using. We executed Japanese soldiers in 1945 for waterboarding American PS. That was a death penalty crime to waterboard
[34:15] somebody. And then in January of 1968, I believe it was January the 11th, the Washington Post ran a front page photo of an American soldier waterboarding a Vietnamese P. And the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamera, ordered an investigation the minute he saw this picture. That soldier was arrested. He was convicted of torture and he was sentenced to 20 years at Levvenworth.
[34:47] >> Yeah. >> And then in 2002, like magic, it's all legal. But the truth is, the law never changed. Congress never amended that law. >> Yeah. We just decided it just didn't fit where we wanted to be in 2002 and we just pretended that the law didn't exist. Well, that's not a constitutional democracy. >> No. >> If you want to be pro torture, then go on the record and change the law and they just didn't bother to do that.
[35:17] >> Yeah. Well, it it would have took too much time. Yeah. You know, and and too much work and >> and when you create this scenario where the like you said, the president signed off on it. So, it's it's good to go. Now, in a court, you've got the president that says basically said, "No, we're not going to do it." And yes, we are going to do it. And and it kind of gives the the people that are responsible for it a a escape. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And you know the the sad truth too is that
[35:49] um all these guys who were at the top positions at the CIA in this period, they all went on to multi-million dollar book deals and positions on the board of directors of of a dozen different uh defense contractors. They all got rich. Nobody was prosecuted. Everybody got rich. [clears throat] >> Wow. I it is I I keep going back to it
[36:19] because I know the the Marines that was at that uh prison um camp. Now, it's not the exact same scenario. You know, they they were they were torturing people for the the thrill of torturing people, not >> not trying to get information because they were just guards as >> You're right. They were. >> That's right. >> But they were prosecuted and and they they're doing some serious time. >> Yes. Yes. You're exactly right. But why then [clears throat] >> should we have this two-tier justice
[36:50] system? >> Yeah. >> I think in today's age uh that's on a lot of people's uh uh minds when it when they they talk about politics. I think it's definitely like a you know what shoes do you wear and they pertain to you in this way. >> It really it really is. >> That's right. How is it that you know uh Congress especially I mean they they want whistleblowers. I mean now we've got
[37:21] whistleblowers for UFOs and and everything else. >> IRS. >> Yeah. IRS >> department. >> Absolutely. So how is it that uh um after after you divulge this and it obviously turned out to be not correctly done right. It was supposed to have been no torture type scenarios. How how did it come back to bite you? I had a very powerful enemy in John Brennan. Uh I've
[37:52] known John for 35 years. We've hated each other for 35 years. And he was uh Barack Obama's deputy national security adviser for counterterrorism. He was one of the godfathers of the torture program. He went on to be the CIA director and he demanded that I be prosecuted. Um, that's where that came from. On Capitol Hill, it's much better now. It was it was chaos up there when I was being prosecuted. But a couple of people have come forward as sort of the go-to protectors of whistleblowers. The
[38:24] most important of whom is um is um Iowa Senator um I'm having a mental blank. Chuck Grassley. Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley. Now, Grassley is very old. He's 94, 95 years old, but he's the one guy that you can expect support from. Another one on the House side is Jim Jordan, uh, the congressman from Ohio. He's chairman of the Judiciary Committee. He's more
[38:55] politicized on this issue, but he is a friend of whistleblowers. Um, Ran Paul, the senator from Kentucky, is another one. And, um, there's a Democrat, Ron Weiden, senator from Oregon. And that's pretty much it. >> Yeah. >> Now, there are 435 members of the House of Representatives. There are 100 senators. We're talking about 535 people, and we can name four who support whistleblowers. >> Wow. >> So, so it's still an uphill struggle, but at least it's better than it was 10 years ago,
[39:27] >> man. You know, that's that's not encouraging stats to get people to want to come forward. That is that is absolutely for sure. >> So, no. Now, now it comes out. We know that uh you were being prosecuted over uh uh vengeance, you know, more than anything. Um and and it ended up costing you your career and and the fact that you had to go to prison for this. Um, >> yeah, >> I believe I read in one of your bios
[39:59] that you'd said that the CIA training had kind of helped you make it through uh your time behind the the walls. How how so? >> Well, at sentencing, my attorneys asked the judge to send me to a minimum security work camp. >> Okay. >> Minimum security um has no bars on the windows. The doors aren't locked. You're free to come and go as you please. You're just on your honor not to abscond and run away.
[40:29] >> And so the camps are always situated next to a higher security prison because when there's a riot, then the guys in the camp go into the prison to do the laundry and do the cooking and stuff like that. The Justice Department had no objection to a minimum security work camp. The CIA did, however, >> and so when I arrived at the prison thinking I was going to the camp, they put me into the actual prison instead. >> So, it took me about four or five days before I got access to a phone. And
[41:01] finally, I was able to call my lawyers and I I told them, "Hey, they put me in the actual prison with the mafia dons and the drug kingpins and the pedophiles. So, what do I do?" And my attorney said, 'Oh my god. Well, we can file a motion, but it'll be two years before we get a hearing and you'll be home by then. He said, 'I' buddy. You're just going to have to tough it out. >> Oh wow. >> And so I thought to myself, you've lived in worse places than Lorettto, Pennsylvania. And I decided to rely on my CIA training
[41:34] to make sure that I stayed safe and stayed at the top of the social heap. So the first thing I started doing is to form strategic alliances and my first alliance uh was with the Aryans followed closely by the Italians and um knock on wood I didn't have one single day of trouble. >> Wow. Yeah. We have one of those uh um minimum security and and a a not minimum security in in my hometown there Jessup
[42:05] Georgia. Oh, sure. >> Federal and and uh believe it or not, the majority of the people that that get taken out of the minimum security isn't because they got caught breaking out. It's because they got caught breaking back in. You know, they they >> Exactly. Right. >> they snuck out to go see a girl or >> That's right. or get a pizza or pick up a cell phone. Man, that happened almost every day. Like you you've worked your way down in security to a minimum and you're going to throw it away by
[42:36] sneaking into the woods to meet up with your girlfriend. >> Yep. >> Or to order a pizza. >> Yeah. >> I never understood that. >> Yeah. Me neither. But uh it it definitely happened all the time. >> So that kind of shocked me that you said, you know, the first connection you made was was with the the Aryans. You know, >> I had been in prison for I don't know, less than an hour. >> And these two Aryans came into my cell and I jumped up. I put up my dukes. I
[43:08] got to defend myself, but I thought I'm going to get my ass kicked. It's two of them and one of me and one of them said, "Take it easy. Are you the new guy?" I said, "Yeah." So, he says, "Uh, are you a fag?" I said, "No, I'm not a fag." And he says, "Uh, are you a a rat?" And I said, "No, I'm not a rat. I didn't have anybody else in my case." And he said, "Are you a chomo?" I said, "I don't know what that means." He goes, "Chomo, child molester." I said, "No, I'm not a child
[43:39] molester." And he says, "Okay, uh, you can sit with the Aryans in the cafeteria." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So finally one of the Italians, actually the number three in the Banano family, >> came up to me. He he lived across the hall from me and he said, ' Let me ask you a question. He said, 'Why do you sit with those Nazi retards in the cafeteria? I said, I don't know. My my first day here, they told me to sit with them. And he says, from today, you're with the Italians.
[44:09] And so for the rest of my sentence, I sat with the Italians every day. >> Yeah. I think it, you know, it comes down to numbers. You know, the the Aryan nations are is not the majority, >> right? >> And uh I would imagine neither are the Italians. And uh so I it does make sense in that aspect. Um >> but usually the the Aryan nation, you would think that they're they're they had to have known that you were not um
[44:41] in a gang. I mean, >> yeah, >> you don't look like the kind of guy that's just covered in tattoos and >> I I don't have any. No, no, that's that's a good that's a good point and a good observation. So, the Aryan table, the cafeteria is very very strictly segregated. >> So, there's a dividing line right down the middle and the entire one side is black guys >> and they tend to not segregate like the whites do. The whites are very clearly divided. the blacks. If you're black,
[45:11] you're in. They don't care if you're a pedophile, a drug dealer. They don't care what you did. You're you're in. >> On the on the white side of the cafeteria, the first table, the first set of tables is the the the aryens. Some some people didn't call it the aryens. They called it the good guys. >> Oh, okay. >> Good. Good meaning that your paper was good. So, you're not a rat or a uh or a pedophile. And so half like a table and
[45:42] a half are actual Aryan Brotherhood and then a table and a half are good guys who are not members of the Aryan Brotherhood. The next table, the next set of three tables, one table is Italians, one table is Native Americans, and one table is sort of overflow for the Aryans if you can't all fit in that front row. And then behind them are three groups of three tables each. And that's where all the
[46:14] pedophiles and the rats and the gays sit. >> Gotcha. So I I'm assuming, you know, your cover was kept while you were in there then that that you you didn't work for the CIA. You didn't uh >> No, sir. >> No. >> My case was on the front page of the New York Times and the Washington Post. It was on TV all the time. And so there was one Italian who not only became my best friend in prison, but here we are 10 years later and is still one of my best friends in the world. He took it upon
[46:46] himself out of the kindness of his heart. After reading an article in the New York Times saying, "I was coming in 4 days to that prison." He went to every one of the Italians, the senior, the leadership people to say, "There's this guy coming on Thursday. He's a CIA guy, but there's a difference between the CIA and the FBI. The FBI is cops. >> Yep. >> The CIA protects us from the Muslims. And this guy hates the FBI as much as we
[47:17] do. And so open arms when I arrived. They welcomed me >> and and he saved me more trouble than I could even calculate. I'm deeply indebted to him. He's such a such a sweet guy. And then I'm proud to say he was serving at first he was serving triple life without parole for a first time nonviolent drug offense. >> Wow. >> He appealed and they cut it to 30 years. First time nonviolent drug offense. And
[47:50] then I wrote an appeal for him and uh and the Justice Department agreed to hear to to to oppose the appeal but to allow a judge to hear it and he won. And so he was released a year after I was. So he I say to him, I owe him so much. And he says, no, I owe you so much. And his mother is like crying and hugging me every time we get together. And it's like, no, I love you. No, I love you. And >> yeah, real friend. true friend.
[48:20] >> That's that's you know prison is is another form of trauma and trauma does build bonds. >> I read I read in a book called uh the sociopath next door >> that 85% of the people in prison at any level whether and it whether it's federal, state or local 85% have a diagnosible mental illness. I Yeah, I would agree. >> Stunning.
[48:50] >> Yeah, those numbers are are extremely close within our our homeless as well. >> Oh, that I'm I'm sure that that's true. I'm sure that And I'll tell you what, there are a lot of homeless people who commit crimes just so they can go to prison and spend the winter indoors. One of my cellmates was a guy from uh Pittsburgh. He was living in a cardboard box under a bridge in Pittsburgh. And he said as soon as it started to get cold,
[49:22] he violated parole on purpose because he says, "Look, I don't want to winter's tough in Pittsburgh. I'm from near Pittsburgh." So, he didn't want to spend the winter in that cardboard box. And he says, "Look, I got a warm bed. I got three meals a day. I have medical care, free medicine. Yeah. >> So, he violated parole. They gave him six months. He says, "Great." They let him out in the spring. Everybody's happy. >> Yep. Yeah. >> That's not That's not the way life
[49:52] should be. >> No, it it should not be. And and that's a you know, and this is for a whole another show, but I talk about this on my other podcast as well. This is why the the VA can't get a grasp around um homelessness and mental health. Yeah. both problems are are combined and there's a lot of little uh symptoms that bleed off onto this. >> Yes, indeed. >> And it's just impossible for one agency to to be the the jack of all trades. >> It is it's impossible, especially when
[50:23] that agency is um underfunded. >> Yeah. Yep. >> And corrupt at the same time. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. As we seen there with the whole waiting list uh uh agenda. Absolutely. So you you you do your time, you you you get out. What was I mean, it it sounds like almost like this became a a give and take. You accomplished a a good thing for America. >> Thank you. >> But you gave up, you know, x amount of
[50:55] years of your life. >> Yeah. And not just that, I Yeah. I gave up two years of my life, but uh the Obama Justice Department seized my federal pension, so I I'm going to have to work till the day I die. I have no pension, nothing. No savings, no nothing. Um, my wife and I split up. Uh, I entered into an eight-year battle uh over custody. >> Wow. >> Uh, went bankrupt. I still owe more than a million dollars to my attorneys that they'll never see
[51:25] because I don't have a million dollars. >> Yeah. >> And um, you know, just getting a job, it it's one thing. I'm lucky because I'm kind of like Washington famous. Mhm. >> So, people sort of come to me and, you know, with offers here and there. >> Yeah. >> But when I first got out of prison, I got turned down by by Uber because I'm a felon, >> by by uh Door Dash because I'm a felon. I went to the local grocery stores, they
[51:56] wouldn't hire me. I applied for a job as a dishwasher in a diner and they wouldn't hire me. I I got a job for one day as a baggage handler at National Airport. And then they fired me at the end of my first day because they didn't realize I was a convicted felon. So yeah, it's it's freaking hard, let me tell you. >> Yeah. And and and what changes came about from from you uh whistleblowing? Did the did the program get destroyed? >> I am so proud
[52:28] of the of the answer to that question. So 6 weeks before I I was released, I called my wife. I was able to call my wife every other day for 15 minutes and I said to her, "So how's your day?" She said, "It's great." I said, "Really great? Why? Why is it great?" And she said, "Because the Senate torture report was released today and it proved that everything you said was true." And then John McCain, God bless him, John McCain stood up on the floor of the Senate and
[52:59] said that the country owed me a debt of gratitude because without my revelations, the American people would never have known what the government was doing in their name. And so he sponsored the McCain Feinstein amendment which formally and permanently banned torture. And now it's illegal under any circumstances. So, it was worth it. >> Yeah, that's, you know, that that is awesome because uh like you said, what
[53:29] we gave up was, you know, endangering people's lives that were still over there fighting. And >> that's right. >> You know, people don't understand how the the smallest amount of OBSAC is that given away is so powerful, much more powerful than Absolutely. than a guy with an M4, you know. And so I think uh I think people underestimate that that stuff the the the power of conversation over a couple beers.
[54:01] >> Yes. >> With the wrong person. >> It works. >> It does. >> It it might take a little bit of time, but it works. >> Yep. And and the intel you end up getting is is so much better, you know. >> Yeah. um having leverage because on once you start you go down that road of torture, you lose your ability for leverage. >> That's it. >> You've now put the person in a desperate situation who feels I have nothing to lose. I'm going to die if I say nothing. And if they find out it's a lie, I'll die too. But >> yes,
[54:32] >> I stand a chance of living for a longer period if I lie. >> That's right. That's right. It's true. >> Yeah. It is it is a a brutal slope to go down. So, whistleblowers and protection and ethics, right? So, what advice if if if somebody was to come out today and say, "Hey, I'm I'm thinking about coming forward with this." Yeah. And and there may be some repercussions. What advice would you give them? >> Oh, I'm so glad you asked that. Hire an
[55:04] attorney before you say a single word. I made a critical mistake by blowing the whistle and then hiring an attorney because I had to be reactive to everything. You want to be proactive. >> So, don't blow the whistle unless your attorney is sitting in the seat next to you and is able to advise you. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that makes a lot of sense. But but again, I I you know, on on your behalf coming forward, you know, you had two things against you. one, you
[55:35] you probably didn't ever anticipate that what you're going to be say is going to be held against you, you know, because you wasn't the the uh inalent here. You weren't the the person being targeted. You were you were the person coming forward. So why would you think that right anything you say is going to be held against you? >> Yes. And >> the second the second part of that is is every day longer that you don't say something, somebody's being tortured. That's exactly right.
[56:05] >> You know, so it's not like you you had the the ability of time. You know, we probably have a little bit more time before the UFOs come. So those guys probably have time to get attorneys and >> Yeah, that's right. >> the [laughter] right thing. >> That's right. >> So, so with that being said, there is areas in the government, right, that that a lot of people uh um talk about, you know, one being the deep state. Yes. you know, do you do you believe that to be true? Because that's part of what comes
[56:36] out of uh the the whole UFO whistleblowers. >> Oh, yeah. I I do. I do. Um we don't have to call it the deep state. We can call it the federal bureaucracy. But yeah, there's there's an entire, you know, there's an entire subculture in government that's there for 30, 35, in some cases 40 years. They can outweight presidents. They're not going anywhere because of the Civil Service Act. You can't fire them. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. If they don't like a
[57:06] president, they just ignore him because they know in four years or eight years, he's going to be gone and somebody else is going to be in. >> Yeah. And and truth be said, you know, the power is in the Congress, the Senate more than it is the president, you know. >> That's right. >> So, if you're friends with them on that side, you probably stand a pretty good chance to survive the next four years. >> That's right. >> So, yeah. you know, this is really a an amazing story. You know, >> it's been a long road. >> I I can imagine, you know, I I I can't
[57:36] imagine the things that you went through >> um dealing with the just the the normal effects of combat. Yeah. >> On top of dealing with >> the the people that you were serving >> coming against you, you know, I mean, this is trauma on top of trauma. >> It is. >> Yeah. >> It is indeed. It's tough. it it don't you know I again we're talking about a major we're not talking about a a local employer so we're talking about a major agency it's not like there's any
[58:07] recourse that that you're going to stand a chance without just throwing yourself more in debt and and and probably nothing good come out of it anyways >> that's right >> so I do I I feel for you in that in that side we uh um I know we're getting to top I got just a couple more things. So, your your career goes this this time frame and it and it ends um horribly, right? >> Mhm. >> Do you have any resentment or regrets
[58:39] other than wishing you would have got an attorney to begin with? Is there anything that uh >> No, you regret. >> No, no, no regrets at all. You know what? You'll make yourself crazy if you think about regrets. >> I agree. And so, no, I I don't even think about it. Like, I'm I seriously don't ever think about it. You just have to look to the future and keep pushing uh in the right direction moving forward. So, now, you know, I write books. I I my eighth book is coming out in the next several weeks. I'm working on I've got a contract for four more
[59:10] after this. Um, I I speak, I teach at universities, and uh, >> yeah, uh, you know, I I'm 60 years old now, and I try to do what is fun, what's going to help me pay the bills for the next, uh, month or so. And, uh, yeah, you have to look to the future. You have to, you'll drive yourself crazy if you don't. >> I I completely agree. You know, it's it's it is weird. You know, the Lord gives us strength but no brains. And
[59:42] then as we get older, we lose our strength, but we gain the wisdom. And >> and it it is it is amazing how he knows that if I put the two together at the same time, how dangerous it can be. >> That's right. >> And so I think I think it's it's really important that that once you people realize that that path that you're on isn't about regret. >> It's it's the path that's taking you to putting you where you're supposed to be. And you'll find that when you get there, >> you know, this is not the way I
[1:00:13] envisioned my life working out. >> Oh, I'm sure. >> But I I I had to come to the conclusion that this is what I was meant to do. And so I embrace it. >> Yep. >> I do. >> Yeah. You know, I I'm like I said, I'm retired. So, um I'm I'm happier now than I ever was when I owned my trucking company and and was making great money, you know. There you go. >> And I'm helping veterans every day. I run a nonprofit and uh I got a very small little media company that that
[1:00:44] helps people with their podcast. >> There you go. Here, if you can see behind me, I've got my dad. >> Oh, you muted yourself. >> Sorry. I've got >> I've got my dad's flag right up there for for all to see. I'm very very proud of him. Absolutely. >> My family, my extended family has a very long history in the Marine Corps and every served proudly. Every last one of
[1:01:15] them. >> Okay. That's, you know, that's another reason where where this podcast is for. It's it's about documenting everybody's story. And I think we all recently learned we don't know in 30 years what the history books are going to teach about us. >> That's right. and and if you want the opportunity to tell your side, this is the time to do it because once it's on the internet, it's there. >> It's there forever. That's exactly my position. >> Absolutely. My my last question before I I give you the opportunity to come forward and and uh tell everybody where
[1:01:46] they can get all your books and and everything. >> Thank you. >> If you could go back in time and and pick a spot where you were in your darkest moment and you don't have to talk about the moment, what would be the advice you would give yourself? Things really do get better. They really do. You may be blind to it at that moment. I had one of those moments. I was going to do something terrible. And I think my wife realized just how dark
[1:02:16] the time it was. And And so she wouldn't leave me alone. >> That's good. >> But it it really does get better even if you can't see it at that moment. Yeah. Yeah. Depression is is is got the ability to to really just control what you see and what you, >> you know, and it's not a it's not an enemy on enemy on the battlefield that you can outflank. It's >> No, >> it is is something that gains total control over you.
[1:02:46] >> That's it. You can't run from it. >> Nope. And and no matter what you do, whether you drown it with alcohol or drugs or or gambling or sex, whatever your addictions are, that that stems from this, it's it's not going to let go of you until you work through it. >> Yes. Absolutely right. >> And that that is a tough that's some great advice and and I hope a lot of the listeners will will hear that and be a part of it as well. Let me bring you forward and and give everybody the opportunity to find out where they can
[1:03:16] connect with you and and where they can uh purchase books and and thank you. >> Well, the books the books are all on Amazon and uh actually almost all of them are on Amazon. The first one is out of print, so I apologize for that. But um you can find me on Twitter or X John Kuryaku on Substack. I I post everything that I do there. Um, also John Kuryaku. Um, I have a TV show on the Unified Network. It's unifyd.com.
[1:03:49] And, um, and also a company called Ivycyber. So, it's ivyscyber.com. Uh, yeah, everything's out there. My own website is johncuryaku.com and it'll just send you wherever you need to go. Thanks for asking. >> All right. I will absolutely make sure uh uh when the the people see this, we'll get these uh links and everything up on the screen. >> Thank you. >> Uh the books and and I'll also note them in the the bios and and the descriptions as well to make it easy for people to to
[1:04:21] >> Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Good to see you. >> Good to see you, too, John. You you've got an amazing story and and I'm I'm glad you was able to connect with us. I I had a great time. Thank >> you. Same here. Appreciate you having me. >> You too. >> [music] [music] >> You've been listening to History Told Forward, a podcast from the Barracks
[1:04:52] Media Network. Thanks to our guest for sharing their insight and thank you for listening. You can find more conversations like this across the Barracks Media Network. We'll see you next