[00:05] The Vulnerable People Project stands in solidarity with the most vulnerable people in the world when the world has walked away. In Lebanon, in Gaza, in the West Bank, in the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, in Ukraine, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Vulnerable People Project is there serving vulnerable Christians, vulnerable Catholics. We have guards right now in front of synagogues, mosques, and churches. We are committed to defending vulnerable communities from violence, to stand with
[00:36] ethnic and religious minorities that are facing genocide. And if you want to be a part of our team, go to our website vulnerablepeopleproject.com, look around, and click on the button in the upper right and become a monthly donor. It's the monthly donors that give us the ability to do all the great work that we do. Also, we have a new campaign, Save West Bank Christians, and it's at savewestbankchristians.com. The state of Israel is using Zionist settlers, terrorist settlers, as proxies defended by the IDF as they're
[01:08] ethnically cleansing the oldest Christian community in the world, the Christian communities in Taybeh, and Beit Sahour, and Bethlehem, and Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ. We may see in the coming years the last Christian leave, but we're committed to making sure that doesn't happen. So, go to savewestbankchristians.com. Now on to my interview with the great John Kiriakou. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me. Brother, first of all, I just want to say, you know, when I first met you it was through a good friend of ours, Jason, who is an
[01:39] incredible writer and a brilliant man and a good man. >> And when I met you, I was with my filmmaking partner, and we were just both really in awe. And we just talked about you. You know, and and and we're just like, this guy is interest- cuz when I first met you, I thought, first of all, you're striking and unassuming at the same time. You were kind and joyful, but I could see that you were addled with pain.
[02:10] The other thing that was really evident was that you had a very deep relationship with God. And so Jenny and I, we were just talking and like and we were just talking about all that you've gone through. And now the world knows because I found out from my sons, cuz I'm in my own little world, that you are literally the most famous guy in the world of Gen Z right now. >> Things went kind of crazy the last 3 weeks. Yeah, it's wild. >> Inexplicably. It just happened. Like literally overnight. I woke up one morning, my
[02:41] niece called me and she said, "Uncle John, you're the most famous man on the internet right now." I said, "Why?" Like how's today different from yesterday? Yeah, they they figured out my my son said, "Does he think he even knows how famous he is?" I go, "I think he probably figured it out." So you figured it out. >> it out. And I'm glad. You know, I'm glad that young people have discovered you because you're you're what you know, you what you have to say is very important to their future because this generation we have been thoughtless
[03:13] to their future in a way that I don't think any other generation has been orphaned. They've been orphaned by the baby boomers, they've been orphaned by Gen X. They have an antagonistic relationship with millennials. They call all of us boomers. I think millennials and up to them are boomers. >> Right. And then there are a lot of these calloused uh they call them muscular Christians or these muscular conservative activists, which I found not they're not good mentors. They might say a lot of sensible things, but overall they're not someone I would want my children to look up to. I said, "We
[03:44] don't need muscular Christians, we need calloused men with calloused hands to be influential on young people, but men with calloused hands generally aren't making Tik Tok videos. >> Yeah. But here you are just for the all the interviews you've been doing over the years, other people are taking them, cutting them up. >> That's what's happened. And so finally you're the first calloused hands influencer maybe in the history of the world. Crazy. But I'll take it. If if it can allow me to reach young people who are going
[04:14] going to end up leading the CIA, the FBI, the State Department, the Defense Department one of these days, then it's time well spent. I I I think so. So what do you think when you hear me say that like when I met you and I think a lot of people probably see this, you're kind, you're joyful, you're friendly, you're attentive. But you can't hide like the pain. I I have always been a glass half full kind of guy. I'm if anything overly optimistic most of the time.
[04:45] But um you know, life's not been easy. It's not been easy. >> Yeah. You know, I've I've I've learned only recently that there is a newly recognized condition that psychiatrists are dealing with uh with patients called moral injury. And it's not just it's not just a psychic injury for having done something. It's a psychic injury from having
[05:15] witnessed something or from having not been able to prevent something. And that's real. Moral injury is real. It's almost a form of PTSD. You just can't get over it. You know, my sort of heyday as a CIA counterterrorism officer was almost 25 years ago. And I still relive it every single day. Every single day in my mind. And it's not good.
[05:46] I I have pictures I don't know why I don't delete them, but I have pictures from those days that would make your hair stand up. It was an ugly time. Yeah, I think when there's a lot of these influencers that are in the same space where you're talking from, when I hear them, like, I don't feel that they actually did much. Because I don't see that moral injury. And with the work that I do with VPP, we witness a lot of very sorrowful things. I was in Iraq with the Peshmerga, the war against ISIS. I've been in Sudan
[06:16] during the genocide, involved in the evacuation of Afghans. And it and it's it wounds you. It humbles you. It makes you repulsed by violence. >> Mhm. I can't smell stand the smell of cordite. Mhm. >> I pretend to like hunting for my sons. Um can you tell us when was the first time you must have started as a young, patriotic, hopeful man. When was the first time that you realized there was a tension between your values and what you were asked to
[06:46] do? Do you Would you remember that moment? >> the date. You remember the date? >> May the 6th, 2002. A long time into your career, huh? Well into my career. I had convinced myself that we were the good guys. And sure, we made mistakes, but we were the good guys. We were on the side of righteousness and freedom and, you know, all these wonderful attributes. And I was uh I've told this story many times, but I was in the um the sandwich line in the CIA cafeteria.
[07:18] And uh one of my colleagues came up to me and said, "Oh, very casually." He says, "Oh, I'm so glad I ran into you. Would you like to be certified in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques?" I said, "What's that mean?" I had never heard that term before. And he goes, "We're going to start getting rough with these guys." And I said, "What does that mean?" And then he described these techniques to me. I said, "Mhm, buddy, I said, that sounds like a torture program to me." And he said, "It's not a torture program. The president said we could do it and it was approved by DOJ." And I
[07:50] said, "Yeah, let me think about it for an hour." I walked out of the sandwich line. I went up to the seventh floor, the executive floor of the CIA. It was a very, very senior CIA officer for whom I had worked in the Middle East 10 years earlier. And um and I knocked on his door. I didn't have an appointment or anything. And I said, "I need some advice. I was just asked if I wanted certified in these enhanced interrogation techniques. I said, "It sounds like a torture program to me. What do you think?" And he said, "First of all, let's call a
[08:20] spade a spade." He said, "This is a torture program. They can use whatever euphemism they want, but it's a torture program. And torture is a slippery slope." He said, "You know how these guys are. Half of them are cowboys and somebody's going to go too far and they're going to kill a prisoner. And when that happens, there's going to be a congressional investigation and then there's going to be a Justice Department investigation and somebody's going to go to prison. Do you want to go to prison?" And I said, "No, I don't want to go to prison." And I was the only one who went to prison at the end of the day. But I went back downstairs and I said,
[08:52] "This is a torture program and I want no part of it." I said, "I have a a moral and ethical problem with it and I believe that it's illegal. I don't care what DOJ says." I was actually passed over for promotion 2 weeks later. I had just captured Abu Zubaydah with these two hands. The highest ranking uh counterterrorism capture in the war on terror at the time. And I was passed over for promotion and my boss told me that the director of
[09:22] counterterrorism said that I had displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism because I was the only one who refused to be trained in the torture uh program. So, that big shot on the seventh floor, when he realized I was not on the promotion list, he promoted me with a stroke of of his pen. But, I realized, "Hmm, this is a problem, and it's going to be a bigger problem, and I'm standing alone
[09:52] on this." I had another friend at the CIA. We were in the Counterterrorism Center together. We're both Greek American. We're both CIA officers. He also happened to be a general and Brigadier General in the army and a psychiatrist. Talk about an overachiever. But, he said to me one day, "Buddy, uh you know, behind your back, they call you the human rights guy." And I said, I said, "I don't care. I I've heard it. I don't care." He said, "You know that's not a compliment,
[10:22] right?" And I said, "Steve, I'm right, and they're wrong." And I left it at that. But, I realized that day, the day that they approached me, this was going to be a fight and I was going to have to do it alone. I mean, we're fighting a war, we were told for human rights. >> Right. And they're using the human rights guy is You would even think somewhere in your chain of command, they would admire you for it, even if they recognized they had to do what they had to do, but they would say that there's a place for this man in the organization. And like you
[10:53] like your boss said call a spade a spade. You would think in I was a scout in the military, we were told never misrepresent what you say what you see. That's right. So, you would think at CIA, if I'm just a line platoon infantryman, and we are drilled to say what you see. Don't say what you think you If you felt what don't say what you felt, don't say what you thought, you say what you write down what seven tanks, 120 men. You would think that at CIA, calling a spade a spade would be drilled into everyone. You would think.
[11:24] And that wasn't it at all. You know, it's funny, at the time, there were fewer than two dozen people in the whole of the US government who knew about this torture program. >> Less than two dozen. In the entire US government. And now they just let me in on the secret and I said, "Oh, no, that's illegal, immoral, and unethical." I'm going to be a problem for them. Mhm. So, later on when I when I blew the whistle in December of 2007
[11:55] I got a I got an email from a retired deputy director of the CIA. And he said, I saved it as a souvenir. He said, "You've chosen a difficult path. I'm glad somebody did. I only wish that it had been me." Which is nice. I wish it had been him, too. Yeah. But you know, I realized then that I actually wasn't alone. You know, maybe people weren't willing to say things
[12:25] publicly but I I wasn't alone. What would you say to young intelligence officers today who are in a similar dilemma? There are There must be, right? Right now, there's someone right now. >> And and they're in a in a similar dilemma. They're facing similar dilemmas as you were facing. >> Yeah. And they feel alone. Their career's on the line. They could look at prison time. What would you tell them? Two things, one philosophical and one practical. Philosophically we all
[12:55] know in our guts the difference between right and wrong. We've known it since we were children. Do the right thing. You know what the right thing is. Just do it. Right? It's not worth 50 years of PTSD and and wondering exactly how much blood is on your hands. Do the right thing. From a practical perspective, though, I would say don't say a word until your lawyer is sitting in the chair next to you. Is
[13:27] that the mistake you made? >> That's the mistake I made. I had to be reactive instead of proactive. I went on ABC News and I said the CIA is torturing its prisoners, that torture is official US government policy, and that the policy had been personally approved by the president, and the whole government fell on my head. I really wish I had had a lawyer sitting next to me. Now, what would you say to like I have a wife, I have a mortgage, I have children to put through school. Like I want to do the right thing, but I can't. Yeah, it's
[13:58] not an easy decision. I had a wife and five children and a mortgage and and I did it anyway. Now, I will say that from one perspective I blew it, right? I lost everything. I lost my freedom, I lost my pension, I lost my job, I lost my family. Um my wife and I split up. That's the thorn in your side. That's the pain we see. But you really get to see
[14:29] who your friends really are. I That person that person that I was married to was not the person I thought I was married to. And I realize now that life, God did me a favor by exposing to me just who my friends were and weren't. I had family members. I had one cousin walk away from me saying
[15:00] listen, he said, "Cuz I can't talk to you anymore. You brought shame to our family." And I said, "I brought shame to our family? You imported cocaine for the Colombians. And I brought shame to our family?" That's the cousin that had a problem with what you did. >> Yeah, I was like, "Dude, you're doing me a favor. I never really liked you anyway." That's what you find out, right? The people you lose, you real you know, there's a a friend of mine told me this this analogy of greyhounds. They chase this mechanical rabbit their whole life,
[15:30] but every once in a while a greyhound will capture it'll catch the mechanical rabbit. It bites it, cuts itself, it bleeds, and it will never race again because it realizes it was chasing a lie. He said you feel sorry for that greyhound cuz it can never race again. It's injured, but no, it's free from an illusion from a a life of an illusion. So what you're saying is that this snapped you out of a life that was an illusion. That's exactly what it was. It was an illusion. And now I sleep beautifully at night. I
[16:02] like myself. You know, I think I wasn't meant to be in that marriage after all. I thought I was deeply in love, had a wonderful marriage. I guess I didn't. Not really. I had fooled myself into it. And you know, there was a bigger there was a bigger reason for doing all this. I probably didn't realize it at the time, but it was to influence another
[16:33] generation of of people. And so I've embraced it. You know, Daniel Ellsberg, the the Godfather of all national security whistleblowers, Dan Dan leaked the Pentagon Papers in 1970 or 71. And the Nixon administration threw everything it had at him. They even broke into his psychiatrist's office and released his psychiatric records to the press. That's why he Dan was never charged with espionage because the Nixon administration sent the
[17:04] plumbers in to to you know, steal his medical records. So Dan said something to me once. When I when I when I was just leaving for prison, it was just a few days before I went to prison. And he said, um "If there's one thing that is consistent across all whistleblowers, it's that we never make a financial comeback. Never." And I said, "Dan, that won't be me." If they thought they were going to silence me, they didn't know me at all.
[17:37] I'm going to embrace this. And I did. People say, "Oh, you leaked." Yes. And I would do it again today if I had the opportunity. Mel Gibson calls that you hug the cactus. >> That's right. That's exactly what it is. Bring it. I I gave an interview My first interview when I got out of prison was to the BBC. It's their version of 60 Minutes, but it's very uh combative. And I knew it was. Uh Cross Talk, maybe? I forget exactly the name of the of the show. But anyway,
[18:09] partway through it, the host was getting frustrated with me. And he said, "You are not apologetic at all. You're not showing any remorse. You're not showing any contrition." And I said, "No. I'm not because I don't apologize." >> You should be remorseful. You should show contrition. >> do it again. I would do it again today, and I would go straight back to prison, and I would embrace that, too. So, no. If you If you thought I was going to come on your show and apologize and say, "Oh, woe is me. I
[18:40] should have kept my mouth shut." No. That's never going to happen. You must have read Cyrano de Bergerac as a kid. You know, I wonder these people are so dishonorable that when they meet an honorable person, they're shocked. They don't know what is going What is going on here? You don't fear prison? Seneca wrote that if you don't fear calumny, death, or poverty, you are free. There it is. Somebody sent me a copy of Dostoevsky's uh A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich when I was in prison. And I
[19:11] thought, "Oh, I'm not sure >> That is a sorrowful book. >> dark. >> I tried to read it 10 times. I can't get far into it. >> I I got through it in a day. I read the whole thing in a day. It's not terribly long, but it's very rough. You were like >> were like, "Oh, I found someone that had it worse than me." >> In fact, that was the conclusion. My conclusion was, "Well, at least they're not starving us." That's why you read it. It was making you happy. You're like, "Wow, It's like, "It's so so great. It's so cold. My teeth are chattering. I think I may die before the morning. Yeah, it's cold like that here, too. Yeah.
[19:43] >> Yeah, but at least they're not starving us." Oh my gosh. I mean, the food's not great. What I really wanted to talk to you about was, you know, we're born here We're born here to leave here. Mhm. We were created for eternity. The end of the day, so many people are just trapped here. But we were made to spend eternity with God, and you're Greek Orthodox. >> Mhm. And I have to imagine, like most people from Orthodox churches, I'm Catholic. There's a period in our childhood where we take our faith maybe as seriously as
[20:13] we take our cultural identity. >> Yes. Um Can you I want to know like how did all of this Like you went through everything. Everything. And I hope you don't mind me saying it. I mean, you went through being betrayed by your country. You know, you wrote Hannah Arendt is someone who I greatly admire. She was betrayed by everyone she loved. Her Heidegger was her lover. She loved Germany. She loved Western philosophy. She was betrayed by everything she loved. Like Dreyfus. Yeah. >> Went through the same thing. And you went through this. You were betrayed by an organization that you gave your life
[20:45] to, a country that you loved, a woman that you loved. Um When did your faith I have to imagine there came a point where it it went from maybe being just cultural or subconscious, like your decision. When you made your deci- When did faith get front-shelved for you? When did your relationship with God come to the forefront? Or was it always there? It was pretty much always there, and I will say that I I never doubted my faith through this whole thing. I remember
[21:15] being angry with God for a little while and saying I remember like saying out loud, "Am I really that bad of a person that I deserve this? Like really? Cuz I can name people that I think are worse than I am. But I'm that bad." >> you say that? This is after my arrest but before my incarceration. I just couldn't understand why this was happening. >> sitting in a jail cell. No, I I was out in a day and and was back home. Like really? I
[21:46] really deserve this. And I remember my wife saying, "This has to be some kind of a test." I had that one angry conversation with God. I end up going to prison and thinking, "All I have really is my faith." The only thing they allow you to bring in is uh is a Bible. That's it. Or a Quran, whatever you happen to have. Can you bring in a rosary or prayer beads? >> No, you can buy those through the chapel once you get there.
[22:16] Um and so I worked for a few weeks in the library. I hated it. I hated the prison guards. They were just monsters and criminals themselves. And I mean that in quite Is that on drugs? >> the literal, sorry. I mean that in the literal sense of the word. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just bad in every way. And so I transferred to the chapel. I liked the chaplain. He was actually the only prison official there that I I genuinely liked and respected. He was
[22:48] he was there only because he wanted to do the right thing and he realized it just swallowed him up. So I got a job in the chapel, working in the chapel library, and realized immediately there are no books on Orthodoxy. There There's a huge section on Catholicism. There's a The biggest section, of course, of course, is Protestantism, Islam, Judaism. Um There were There was a shelf on Mormonism.
[23:20] The pagans had >> there are a lot of Mormons in prison. There were a handful, and they were all tax cheats. >> Financial crimes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was all financial crimes. All of them Every one of them. Yeah. So, um So, I wrote to a priest in um nearby Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Immediately, he starts sending books, like lots of books. And then he starts >> Seraphim Rose was Oh my god, it was Church Fathers, The The Desert Fathers, uh biographies of saints, um a
[23:51] four-volume encyclopedia of the saints, uh just fantastic, The Orthodox Study Bible, which includes the Apocrypha. Fantastic stuff. >> Yeah. And so, I was able to build a good collection of Orthodox books. The The only problem I ran into, there was only one other Orthodox prisoner in the prison. He was Ukrainian Orthodox, but he was a pedophile. Age difference. >> Yeah, so I I was on my own. I had a personal policy >> Yeah, no, no. Right. So,
[24:23] I I found refuge in that uh chapel. Now, it's not the kind of chapel that you might be imagining. It's just kind of a you know, a room. Just an an empty room. >> filled with icons >> not filled with icons and you have to go in there and shoo all shoo away all these guys that are having sex in there because they knew the cameras weren't working. >> Oh my gosh. >> And then And then it's a It's a safe haven for pedophiles because they're not allowed to remain in their cells because their cellmates will beat them if they remain in.
[24:54] They're not allowed in the TV room. They'll get a beating. They're afraid to go outside to the yard, they'll get a beating. And so the only place they can go during the day is either the chapel or the library. So the library is all pedophiles, and then the chapel's all pedophiles. So that was an ongoing problem. What are you going to do? So >> So I made the best of it. So you were already a deeply into your faith. So as an intelligence officer, did it come to your mind a lot? Like when it when um I have to imagine loving your enemy,
[25:26] which we're commanded to do as Christians. >> That But that took me some time. >> How And I'm not talking about the people that betrayed you in our own government, but when you are going after terrorists, they're our enemies. >> Well, you know what? >> get to know them well. You get to know everything about them. I sat with Abu Zubaydah for 56 consecutive hours. I was practically delirious from from fatigue. But I remember telling him, I was sitting in a chair at the foot of his bed. He was tied to the bed. I tied him to the bed because I was afraid I was
[25:57] going to fall asleep and he would escape somehow. There he was not going to escape. He was shot and almost almost killed. But I said to him, "I should hate you. I should want to kill you. And I don't." I said, "You're pathetic." He was only in his 20s. Yeah. And and I was like, "You're the fearsome Al-Qaeda? You're what we're so terrified of? You're pathetic."
[26:28] And I I couldn't hate him. And I It's funny, I almost wanted to. When I was leaving >> Could you We're commanded to love our enemy, which is it's hard, obviously. I can't >> I I can't even love people that don't like me. >> Yeah. And even if they've never wronged me. Like what, they don't like me? Ugh. So there's one one person in my life who wronged me more than anybody else ever could have. And a person that she became close to.
[26:58] And it took me years to get to the point where I could forgive them. And then I sought him out. They They didn't work as a pair. I sought him out. And I scared the hell out of him when I called him. I was visiting his country. And I said, "Don't worry. I'm not here to harm you. I just wanted to tell you I've thought about this a lot. And I forgive you." And he said, "Really?" And I said,
[27:29] "Really. You shouldn't have done what you did. That was wrong. But I forgive you." And he said, "Well, thank you." And I said, "You're welcome." And I don't know How do you think he understood it from his worldview? I think he probably didn't give a whether or not I forgave him or not. But that's okay, too. Because I felt better. You know, we forgive for ourselves. If the person being forgiven accepts the forgiveness and is gracious
[28:00] about it, great. Good on them. But I did it for myself. It just took me a long time to get there. How did But did working as a CIA officer did it change how you understand it? Did it make it easier or harder for you to love our enemies? You know, the culture >> And I have to share with you this was a question from a friend of mine. Yeah. And she she I guess this is something she's wrestling with. It made it harder. The culture is such that
[28:35] the culture is such that they can't risk us loving our enemies. We need to be willing at the drop of a hat to kill our enemies. And thank God I was never in that position. But you're trained to be. And um I think that it would not benefit the program if you're out there forgiving people. Yeah. >> The day that I was leaving for Pakistan I only had >> I guess you can love and forgive people that have to be killed. I guess you can.
[29:07] Sure. But it's it's a mystery for us to even kind of wrap our minds around. >> It is. It's very difficult. The The day that I was leaving for Pakistan and I only had 24 hours notice, right? I went to the office just to say goodbye to everybody. But you know, the director of counterterrorism at the time said, "On 9/11 all of us are going to have to do our part. Not all of us are going to make it home." So if you want to walk now, nobody will think less of you. Nobody budged. And I knew what the risks were going
[29:39] overseas into an active war zone. And then specifically doing counterterrorism operations. So I went to the office to say goodbye to everybody. Just in case, you know, it was the last goodbye. And my boss came up to me and and he gave me a hug. And as he's hugging me, he whispers to me "Kill them all." And I said, "Really, John? Are we there already?" And then he shook my hand. And I walked out. It's like, "Wow." Cuz
[30:10] already that that emotion had never even occurred to me. Not until he said it. >> As young infantrymen, we had that we talked that way. Yeah. >> But you expect 19-year-old infantrymen to talk that way. >> Sure. But not a not a 55-year-old at the time and seasoned intelligence veteran. >> Yeah. And I I thought about that the whole way over. Like, jeez, I I want to do the right thing. I want to capture as many of these guys as I can and bring them to trial so that they face punishment for
[30:43] for the terrible crimes that they've committed against the American people. But just killing them in cold blood had never even occurred to me. Why would it have? We're a nation of laws. Right? We've got a constitution. >> what we're fighting for. >> That's right. That's what we're fighting for. Exactly. In fact, and forgive me if if you've heard this >> Well, here's this and our faith teaches us something that that's very important. We never do evil that good would come of it.
[31:13] And once you throw that away, there's no limits. Yeah. That's right. What was it like How did you keep your moral grounding when you're you're recruiting people? You're building relationships with them. You have to deceive them. Yeah, see, well, that's a good question. I It's because I genuinely believed we were the good guys. And I wasn't taking advantage of anybody. I was putting them at risk, of course, but they went into this with their eyes
[31:44] open. You know, I remember my one of my station chiefs coming up to me saying, "I've been doing this for 25 years, and I'm good at it." He said, "In my 25 years, I've recruited nine people." He said, "You've been here 2 years, and you've recruited five people." And I thought he was kind of kidding around, and I said, "And not a safe house keeper among them." Which is kind of the cheap entry-level recruitment, like you just go up to some old lady, usually an American, and say, "Hey,
[32:14] listen, you know, I'm with the State Department. If I pay you 500 a month, would you rent an apartment for me, and I'll pay everything?" Yeah, and that kind of counts as a recruitment, but it's an ongoing joke in the CIA. Yeah, it shouldn't count as a recruitment. I was recruiting killers, bombers, terrorists, people that you wouldn't trust, you know, with your family. But um but I really believed we were the good guys. And so >> necessary for you to be good at
[32:46] recruiting? >> Absolutely. If I If I didn't believe in myself and the mission, I I had have failed. Did there used to be a point like I call it method activism where I have to build a relationship with somebody and they are gaslighting me, but I absolutely convince myself that they're sincere. Does that make sense? So that I can influence them more effectively? Did you Did Did you ever have that sort of where you
[33:16] Did there come a point where you were losing faith, but you basically had to gaslight yourself to continue to be effective, but you were already slipping? Yeah. It was after I returned from Pakistan. I I spent a year and a few months at headquarters in a really, really great, important position. I became the the executive assistant to the CIA's Deputy Director for Operations. And in that position
[33:48] It's a really tough job, but I had access to literally everything that the CIA was doing around the world. Everything. >> seem prudent for anyone to have that. Or is it necessary? >> You have to brief the director and the deputy directors. They can't get through the 20,000 cables a day. Okay. So you do it and you boil it down to the five or six that they absolutely, positively need to know about. And that's challenging. It's very challenging. And I started seeing some of the other
[34:19] things that we were doing around the world. And I thought to myself why? Why are we doing that? To what end? How does this help us? How does this keep America safe? I understand you want to be James Bond or, you know, GI Joe or whatever, kick asses and take names. I I I get it. There are some guys like that. I was never like that, but there were some that I worked with. But what does it gain for us? And then when I went to my final
[34:51] operational position, I was um I was ordered to uh to make a recruitment that just didn't make operational sense. It's like, why? Why are we Why are we going to harass this guy? "Because I'm ordering you to." was the response. And so I decided to slow roll it. I I started having thoughts of resigning. And I thought, "You know what? I can
[35:22] slow roll this to the point where I'm going to resign before I need to make a pitch." And so what I did is I just continued taking the guy to dinner. And all the time he thought we were friends. And that's how I left it. And you never told him you were from the State Department. Oh, I told him I was from the State Department. >> Okay. But that's what he That's what he believes. >> And then now he knows. >> Now he knows. Now he knows, unless he doesn't have Tik Tok. >> those guys over the years, they're probably like, "Oh, thank God he keeps his mouth shut about the important
[35:53] stuff." Yeah. Which you do. Yeah. I mean, you're what what we're getting is the tip of the iceberg. >> Oh, yeah, yeah. >> Or you'd be back in prison. >> Yeah, but I mean, morally I would never reveal a Yeah. You don't want to put anyone else in >> no. And you never want to put anyone else in jeopardy. No, never. I want to um talking about people in jeopardy. We have I really my heart breaks where there's a whole generation in jeopardy. I would say Gen Z and the millennials. I'm a father I have seven children five I have four grandchildren. AI is taking away their hopes of I'm a
[36:24] filmmaker and a writer. I'm worried for my career. I'm almost >> Right. I can't imagine being a creative >> too late for the poetry professors. >> imagine being a creative writer. And my haikus really improved since ChatGPT. But, um But, you know, they have this. They have AI. They have pornography and the apps destroying the natural awakening of eros that all of us had the experience of you know, the first time you get excited around women is at the pool. You know, in eighth grade, you know, and
[36:56] then you're like all the most beautiful girls your age happen to be at that pool that day. And you know, but now these kids before that day ever comes, they've been bombarded with pornography. Their career dreams are being erased by AI. I remember the '90s when we were like, "Oh my gosh, our children are going to know what a is because of Monica Lewinsky, the Monica Lewinsky scandal." 12-year-olds, 10-year-olds, 8-year-olds are searching the Epstein files right now. Then they see this war. They saw the
[37:27] genocide in Gaza. Yep. And if you don't want to call it a genocide, it is an ethnic cleansing. There is no debate on that. No one will debate you on that. >> cleansing is a form of genocide. So, even if you don't acknowledge that perhaps hundreds of thousands of people have been have been killed, it's still a genocide. And the Gen Z sees this. >> Yeah. They're Googling. They're going through the Epstein files. They're watching us yawn at a genocide. Um they're watching men like you with character and integrity. You were what
[37:58] we're told we should all be. You're the hero from the history books today being persecuted. And now Tucker Carlson is being threatened with treason, which could be punishable, I guess, up until death. I don't know what they're thinking. But and Gen Z has found you. Yeah. >> They found you. You didn't find them. They found you. >> glad and very grateful. What would you say to them? Yeah. As they're witnessing Tucker Carlson being crucified,
[38:29] um schools being bombed, Lebanon being cleansed, Gaza being cleansed, Christians in the West Bank being persecuted. And they're just sitting this and they're just stunned. And they're like, "I don't have a career. I'll never find love. And my parents and grandparents' generation are crazy people." >> Yeah. Well, I mean, at the risk of speaking in cliches, you got to do the right thing. Listen, if something feels wrong in your gut, it's wrong. One of the things One of the
[38:59] exceptions that I took with the CIA's culture was the CIA always taught us that everything was a shade of gray, right? Everything in life is a shade of gray. That is just simply not true. Gray is what? Gray is Is black and white. >> It's black and white together. >> is black and white. >> black and white. >> Yeah. The truth is some things are black or white. They're either right or wrong. And in our guts, we know what the right thing to do is. So, do the right thing. It Will there be a cost?
[39:30] Probably, especially on these big-ticket items, like genocide and ethnic cleansing and murder, targeted assassinations. But, we know what the right thing to do is. So, do it. Do it and others will follow. You know, there's there have have been some uh some documentary examinations of uh 9/11 and the aftermath. Now, we're in the 25th year, right? It's going to be the 25th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks this
[40:02] year. And there was a a series documentary series on Netflix recently. And it completely left me out. It never mentioned me. They never approached me. But, all of the actual torturers they interviewed. And they were like, we had to do it. It was the right thing to do. We saved lives. No, actually, you didn't. >> believe they saved lives? No. It's been categorically proven that they
[40:33] didn't save lives. But the thing is that >> cost less lives? >> Well, the thing is, most likely. In their obituaries it's going to say that they were the fathers of the torture program. And the only thing that they can do after all these years is just to repeat that lie over and over and over and over again and hope that they can convince Americans you know, in the fog of history that they did the right thing. They didn't do the right thing. And so I will
[41:05] continue talking over and over again until the day I die to ensure that Americans have the truth. You You asked the question a second ago that deserves a little bit of explanation. When ISIS first began kidnapping American journalists and executing them when they beheaded them the prisoners were always wearing orange jumpsuits. And it's because we made prisoners wear
[41:36] orange jumpsuits. They did that because of us. They tortured Americans because we tortured them. So, you know there's a cost and innocents pay the price. I want to talk about innocents paying the price for what our intelligence community does. Where I work I'll often be accused of of being CIA. >> Sure. >> Everywhere I go. Yeah, cuz people are stupid. They're stupid out there. >> for them to use nonprofit organizations
[42:06] to do their work. >> And do they? No. When I was there, no. Journalists? No. Not since '75. But they don't need to recruit journalists. They control the journalists already. >> How do How do they control the journalists? >> Well, I'll tell you the story. >> the NGOs, too, a lot of them? >> some. Through through funding. Okay, through USAID? So, a friend of mine Jason Shout out to Jason Leopold. One of the finest journalists One of the
[42:37] finest investigative journalists I've ever encountered. He has filed more Freedom of Information Act requests than anybody else in the world. To the point where George W. Bush's Pentagon spokesman called him a FOIA terrorist. They actually threatened him because he used the law to get information released. He's the one who broke the Hillary Clinton email uh server story. You guys should like start a super You know, like the like the League of Justice. You're the human
[43:07] rights guy, he's the FOIA terrorist, you have a whole So, he told me that he was bored one week between Christmas and New Year. And so, he filed a Freedom of Information Act request just for the heck of it with the CIA, and he asked for all communications between the CIA and all American journalists for a period of whatever it was, 2 years, 1 year, whatever it was. And the CIA never ever responds. So, he
[43:38] has an attorney on uh on call. The law says they have to respond within 60 days. You're lucky if they respond within 60 years. I'm serious. And so, on day 61, they file a federal lawsuit. He always wins, and the CIA always has to pay his legal fees. Okay. So, he he sues for this information. >> this guy. All communications between the CIA and all American journalists. Most of it was 99% of it was garbage. It was, "Hey, I'd like to uh get your opinion on such and
[44:10] such. Oh, I'd like to interview the director." Okay, who cares? But, what he found was Ken Dilanian. He's the chief national security correspondent for NBC News and MS Now, formerly MSNBC. He was writing articles and then sending them to the CIA for clearance before sending them to his own editor. Is this okay, you guys? This is what I want to say. Are you cool with it?
[44:43] Cuz if you're not, just let me know and I'll take stuff out. What is that? Why was he doing that? Just because he was friends to get information? Sure. And and they control him. I mean, it's it's a method of control, but more interestingly, he found this young, hungry, independent journalist who actually stumbled on something important. And he wrote to the CIA and he said, "I wrote this story. I'm publishing tomorrow. Do you have any comment?" And they wrote back and they said, "So help us God, if you publish this story,
[45:17] you will never be invited to the CIA Christmas party ever again, and we will never ever give you a background briefing." And he killed his own story. His own story. For a Christmas party. So, they don't need to recruit journalists anymore. They love bomb you. Yeah. They recruit you. Mhm. Essentially, without it actually being spoken. And this guy looks like he recruited himself. He just wanted to be in the cool crowd. Yeah, exactly. So, what would you say to Tucker Carlson right now? He must be feeling the heat.
[45:47] He's going through what you went through. I mean, this is unbelievable to me. >> I have deep respect for Tucker Carlson. I consider him to be a friend. And um he's really he's really in in the in the woods right now. Uh people are jumping up and down on him. They're calling him anti-semite of the year, one of these Jewish groups called him. They called me the the Israeli foreign minister's political director in a in an article in a scholarly journal a few months ago called me noted anti-semite
[46:19] John Kiriakou. I'm like, what? >> Well, we were talking earlier. I said being an anti-semite used to mean um you hated Jews. >> Jews. >> Today it means you refuse to hate Arabs or Muslims. >> That's what it is right there. So, I said to Tucker, I said, I'm I'm noted anti-semite John Kiriakou. He said, that's nothing. He said, I'm anti-semite of the year. And we had a little laugh over it. So, now he's being ostracized
[46:50] by not just AIPAC and and the the smaller Jewish political organizations here in the United States, but by a lot of mainstream political figures. Ted Cruz being first among them, Lindsey Graham a close second, both of whom I consider to be dangerous tools of Israel. >> They're open trade I mean, look, they're trade. They should be investigated. I just saw Lindsey Graham on Fox. I don't care about you, I care about Israel. >> Yeah. Then move to Israel if you think
[47:21] it's so great. >> Yeah, run go to Israel. >> Yeah. So, um you know, it's one thing to fight Ben Shapiro on X. It's an entirely different thing to have a criminal referral made against you to the Justice Department accusing you of treason and espionage and violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act. We thought when when this story first broke, we thought this was the CIA
[47:52] cuz they file crimes reports against people every single day. I can't tell you how many times I've had crimes reports filed against me. Um we thought it was the CIA that did it. That didn't really make sense to me, but the conventional wisdom was that it was the CIA. And Tucker certainly thought it was the CIA. But then the very next day, Laura Loomer came out and said, "Nope, it was me. An instrument of Israel. Yeah. Literally she should be literally an instrument of the Israeli government. >> she is she registered as a foreign I mean, she must be registered, right? >> be because God knows she's representing
[48:24] Israeli interests in the United States. Yeah. >> It's unbelievable. So, should Tucker be scared? I would be. Um I would be because for the for the simple reason that there are a lot of crazy people out there. You know, it's one thing to shoot up a church or shoot up a synagogue or shoot up a mosque. It's another thing to, you know, lie in wait for somebody like uh happened to Charlie Kirk. I mean, Tucker's very very high profile, higher than Charlie ever was. Yeah. And
[48:56] um you know, thank God he doesn't live in Washington anymore where he'd be easy to find. But still, you know, I I worry for the guy's safety. Do you worry? Does he have any legal jeopardy that he should be worried about? >> Oh. He said in his response to all this that that no, he doesn't think he is in any legal jeopardy, but he said, "I have great lawyers. I'm blessed with plenty of money. I don't need money. So, I have, you know, great lawyers, but this is ridiculous.
[49:27] It's meant to silence me," he said, "and it's not going to silence me." >> You know it's meant to silence other people that may follow Tucker cuz they know they're not going to silence Tucker. >> said the same thing to me. They said, "You know, this this case is not about John Kiriakou. This case is about silencing literally anybody who may be thinking of blowing the whistle on waste, fraud, abuse, or threats to the public health or public safety." >> So, what would you say to a young intelligence officers right now who that they are afraid? Yeah. But, they want to speak out. What would you How I
[49:58] would say start with the Inspector General's office. If you get no satisfaction from the Inspector General, bite the bullet, hire a lawyer, and do what your lawyer tells you to do. That may mean going public. Go to the Inspector General, the oversight committees, but if you get no satisfaction, you have to go public. See, my my case was unusual in that I First, they say go through your chain of command. I couldn't. My chain of
[50:29] command created the torture program. I couldn't go to the Inspector General because this was so highly compartmentalized that the Inspector General wasn't read into the program. And the Inspector General had no idea. >> a lot of programs he's not read into? >> Yeah, lots. He doesn't have a need to know. Mhm. I couldn't go to the General Counsel cuz the General Counsel had approved of the torture program. I couldn't go to the oversight committees because they financed the torture program. So, where was I going to go? I could only go to the media.
[51:01] And sometimes, that's what you do. The day before you went to the media, were you was that a Were you wavering or you knew? >> No. No, the week before, several things happened on on Monday, there was a presidential press conference. And the president It wasn't a Monday, it was
[51:31] a Wednesday. The president looked right in the camera in response to a question, and he said, "We do not torture." Like that. And I said to my wife, she was a senior CIA officer, I said, "He's a bald-faced liar." He's looking the American people in the eye and he's just lying to us. And then 2 days later, it was a Friday and he came out of the White House through the South Portico to walk to the presidential helicopter, Marine One, to
[52:02] go to Camp David for the weekend. And you know, reporters always shout questions when the president's doing that walk from the South Portico to the helicopter. And somebody shouted about torture and he stopped. And he said, "Well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer." Well, Brian Ross had called me from ABC News the week before. And he said he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah. I said that was absolutely wrong. >> rogue officer torturing people. And that's what I said to my wife.
[52:33] Brian Ross's sources at the White House and they're going to try to pin this on me. So, I called him and I said, "I'll give you your interview." And so, I decided in that week before the interview that whatever he asked me, I was just going to tell the truth and just let the cards fall. And so, that's what I did. And here we are. Millions of kids are watching you on TikTok. >> Yeah. They didn't see that coming. They did not see that coming. They also didn't
[53:05] see Like they don't get you. They don't get Tucker. They don't get people >> They also didn't see John McCain standing on the floor of the Senate and saying that the American people owe John Kiriakou a debt of gratitude because without him, they would never have known what the CIA was doing in their name. >> that. God bless John McCain. He was an interesting character. Interesting. >> could There's a lot to disagree with John McCain on. But on torture, there was nobody >> air. I'll tell you off air something he did for me that was unbelievable.
[53:36] >> Well, I after I blew the whistle, I I went to work for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I worked for John Kerry. And in the Russell Senate Office Building, his his office was next to McCain's. So, every time Kerry and I would be walking out of the office, McCain would be walking out of his office. It was usually for a vote. And he would say, "John Ciriacy, how are you today?" And put out his hand. And I'd say, "Senator, so good to see you. Always good to see you." And he always would give me a hearty handshake. And finally, Kerry said to me one day, "Why don't you and McCain get a room or
[54:08] something?" And I said, "No, no, he's he's serious. This is all about torture." Cuz he knows. >> He knows. Yeah. And then and then when I got out of prison, one of the first phone calls I received was from McCain's chief of staff. He called me and he said, "Senator McCain says, congratulations, welcome home, and how can he be helpful?" And I said, "These Obama took my pension. I'd really love to get my pension back." So, my attorney and I went up to Capitol
[54:39] Hill, and we came up with this plan. My attorney wrote an amendment. He wrote an amendment that was so beautifully worded. It was just a couple of sentences. And it said, "Every American convicted of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act between October 1st and October 31st, 2012, shall hereby have his pension reinstated." So, of course, that's me. I'm the only person in the world. >> Yes. And McCain said, "Look, we're going to
[55:10] attach this to the National Defense Authorization Act, the Pentagon budget, cuz it's like 8,000 pages long." He said, "We're going to slip it in down here." He goes, "Nobody reads those things. We'll slip it in down here. I'll get myself appointed to the conference committee because the House and the Senate have to have to confer and make sure that the two versions of the bill are exactly the same, and then it goes back for vote." He said, "I'll get myself appointed to the conference committee so that I can ensure that it remains in the bill and then when the president signs it it has the effect of
[55:42] a pardon. I was like, God bless you Senator McCain. And then he got brain cancer. Oh, so this didn't go through. You didn't get your pension. They took it out of the took it out of the bill. And so I never got the pension and then he died. You know, he was a hawk but >> Yeah. but he he was He was right on torture. >> and and he was right on torture and you know his daughter right now He was honest. >> Let's move to Iran because his his daughter has been critical of the Trump administration this war in Iran especially the rhetoric.
[56:12] >> it on the chin for this too on on X. So Iran where by the way we're we're got a storm barreling down. I have a lot of I feel the gun like I've got all these questions and I don't want John to be stuck in the storm. How much time do we have John do you think? >> 1:05. >> What did I tell you how when I said we'd get you out of here by 1 Yeah. 15? We're good. Okay, I don't want you to be I don't want you to be we're stranded here all together. Uh I think it'll start just as I get here. We're expecting like 75 mile an hour winds and tornadoes. It's going to be pretty bad. >> like there's so much to ask you. Um
[56:44] but I want to bring it to Iran because everything is at stake in Iran. And um Yes. I feel like we this is the biggest military blunder in the history of the United States of America. When you look at how much trouble we had in Afghanistan and Iraq there is no comparison. No. Or how do we actually what what would you tell the President of the United States? How do we act and and and in fairness the intelligence community it seems from leaks Mhm. said don't do
[57:15] this. >> Don't do this. Can't win it. And they were ignored. Benjamin Netanyahu convinced the president that Iran was a house of cards and as soon as the first missile was launched it would collapse on top of itself. And everybody would live happily ever after. And anybody >> Has that happened? Is that what's happening now? This is just bad no matter how you look for. First of all, it shows that that well, George Galloway, the the
[57:47] British parliamentarian, I love George. Great guy. He said something last night that was so true and funny at at the same time and sad at the same time. He said Benjamin Netanyahu has not been seen in 2 weeks, which is true. Since the hostilities began Netanyahu's been a ghost. And he said if Netanyahu is in hiding, who's running the United States? >> that. That's funny. Yeah. >> And he's he's right. Because our foreign policy is essentially
[58:17] whatever Netanyahu says it's going to be. >> it's Laura Loomer. Which is even worse. Which is even worse. >> the United States. >> Yeah. You know, there are times where American foreign policy and Israeli foreign policy intersect. Great. There There is an old saying that there's no such thing as permanent friends, just permanent interests. >> Yes. >> But we have forgotten that in the case of Israel. Sometimes it is in American interest to support Israel. Sometimes it's not.
[58:49] This is one of those times when it's not. I have five children, you have five children. I don't want my children to die for Israel. >> fought My oldest son fought in Iraq and Syria. I worked for Buchanan. I opposed the invasion of Iraq and my son ended up fighting ISIS. Incredible. God bless him. >> And I have boys barreling towards military age now. >> See? And they're talking about the draft. >> And they're talking about the draft. And I'll tell you another thing. I had dinner with a with a friend of mine the other night who is a longtime and full professor of history
[59:21] at a major university, right? A household name university. And he said, because this is how well connected he is at the Pentagon, he said, "There is a real danger that nuclear weapons are going to be used in this fight." And he said, "On the one hand, at the Pentagon, they're afraid that Donald Trump is considering using nuclear weapons because it is what Trump has called the last taboo. And he wants to break that taboo to make
[59:53] it okay for future presidents to use nuclear weapons. On the other hand, I mentioned him, actually. I said, "I've It's my understanding that the Israelis have between 80 and 150 nuclear warheads." He said, "I think the number is more like 120 to 250 nuclear warheads." And I made a comment that about them being at Dimona. He said, "They're not at Dimona. Dimona's where the uranium is enriched. They're in a deep underground bunker
[1:00:24] west of Jerusalem." Um he said, "Can an Iranian hypersonic do damage to that? Probably. So, do the Israelis launch a nuclear strike against Iran before the Iranians can launch a hypersonic missile? That's what they're afraid of at the Pentagon. There are two different ways in which nuclear weapons could be used in this conflict. I think that if If I were an advisor to the president, I would say this. I'd say, "Declare victory and come
[1:00:55] home." Right? >> bases in all in the region or how far would we go back? >> you know what? We may not even have to make that decision. The Arab Gulf countries of the GCC, the Gulf Cooperation Council, may make that decision for us. The Gulf Cooperation Council is Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates. Okay. So, there are about 50,000 troops at bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, and Oman at any given time, just normally.
[1:01:27] Qatar hosts the world's largest air force base, that is Al Udeid air force base, the biggest one we have anywhere on the planet. Bahrain is home to the fifth fleet, which is the naval component of Central Command, which is itself based in at MacDill MacDill in outside Tampa. So, every one of these GCC countries hosts army, navy, air force, and Marines.
[1:01:57] And all those American personnel couldn't stop the Iranians from sending $10,000 drones laden with explosives. >> We've done a better job of protecting Israel Yeah. >> than we have of protecting our own troops. >> Yes. If this doesn't make the American public furious >> not even just our own troops. The Iranians are hitting hotels in Dubai. They blew up a a fuel storage tank at Dubai Airport today, the busiest airport in the world, and it's closed. They hit an oil refinery in Saudi
[1:02:27] Arabia. They've hit the the runways of both Kuwait International Airport and Bahrain International Airport. >> How have they done this? Haven't we defeated them seven times in the past 2 weeks? Yeah. I thought they'd been defeated. Everything's There's no more targets. There's no more targets. >> we've bombed them to the Stone Age, right? I mean, that's what that's what we're supposed to believe. >> Are you hopeful that this war is going to end soon? >> No. The Israelis won't allow it to end soon. And we do what the Israelis tell us to do. >> So, how does this end? How does this Where does this go? Look what's happening in Lebanon, the West Bank.
[1:02:58] We have a campaign at Vulnerable People Project called savewestbankchristians.com. I I I I was I spent Christmas in the West Bank. I spent a lot of time in the West Bank. We work in Gaza. We work with the Christian community and the orphan community in Gaza. I'm very close to the Every morning, the first thing I do and every night, first thing I do before I go to bed is I check in on the people that work with me in the West Bank and they're scared. Um, increased settler violence right under our nose, the specific targeting of Taybeh, a Christian village.
[1:03:30] Um, they just approved a new settlement Shepherds where they're going to drop 11,000 Christian homes which will effectively end Christians in Bethlehem and and and and Shepherds field. And we have an ambassador who was a pastor and he signed on to these abuses. He's as much a part of the problem as any Zionist politician, Israeli politician. You know, when he welcomed the traitor Jonathan Pollard into the American Embassy and feted him like a hero after
[1:04:02] Pollard said that Israelis should take up arms against the United States. That was enough for me. The Am- Ambassador Friedman should have resigned on the spot. He doesn't have the big balls to resign. He has no honor. And then the whole Tucker Carlson interview where he essentially said, "Yeah, I I pretty much represent the Israeli government. I think the Israelis should take all of the Middle East. Just take it." Mike Johnson went to the settlements outside of Bethlehem and met
[1:04:33] with the settlers to give them a rah-rah speech. He didn't meet with the Christians that have been there since the first century. >> Yeah. Yeah. And but the American public is waking up to this. So, we have this campaign savewestbankchristians.com and we're really going to focus attention on the West Bank this Easter because they increase the abuses on Christians around on around the treaty. And we're going to really try to do our best to make sure everyone's paying attention to this. Um, do you think that this administration will res- be responsive? Trump has said many times no
[1:05:04] more settlements in the West Bank. Israel responds by saying, "Here's a new settlement right in the Christian area." And we're going to drop 11,000 homes. Donald Trump will do literally nothing to help Christians in Palestine. But neither did Joe Biden or Barack Obama or George W. Bush or George H.W. Bush or Ronald Reagan or anybody else. Because the Israelis control our foreign policy. And we do as they tell us to do. How do we extricate ourselves from their influence?
[1:05:36] The very first thing we need to do is to force AIPAC to register as a foreign agent. It's It's a bad joke that AIPAC is just a bunch of concerned Americans who support Israel. Please. It's an insult to to the intelligence of every American. AIPAC needs to register just like everybody else needs to register. And then we need to put America first. You know, I I approached this whole America first thing in the MAGA movement from the political left. And I was a true believer.
[1:06:08] I I really want us to put America first. >> I campaigned this past cycle in Pennsylvania where I met with the Syrian Christians in the Lehigh Valley. I met with the Muslim community. And I really organized them to support the president because I said he has given us his word. He is going to end this war. He said He said there's too many Palestinians dying. This has to stop. And it's >> He said all the right things. >> all the right things. >> did all the wrong things. You know,
[1:12:50] she still participates in the Orthodox Orthodox liturgy. When you were um working in the in the CIA, did you go to confession? Mhm. How did you handle confessions? I mean, that had Is there a process or Yeah, if confessions in the Orthodox church are a little bit >> I mean, can you can't confess everything you're doing, obviously. No, but the priest knew where I worked. I mean, I wasn't the only CIA guy at St. Catherine's Greek Orthodox Church in Falls Church, Virginia. Do they make sure those those they're not bugged? >> I mean, if I was the foreign
[1:13:21] intelligence agency, I would be bugging. >> in that we go into the confessionals. You look face-to-face. >> You sit there and you look the guy right in the eye and you say, "Father, I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that." >> Did they ever gasp or just go, "What in the world?" >> No. I mean, the hummus story, did they not Did you confess the hummus? >> Oh, I didn't do that. Okay, I don't know it. I only know it secondhand. Oh, no, no. I had nothing >> But you knew of it. >> years after I left. No, no. It was in the Senate torture report. Can we address that? I want you to finish the confession because we talked about how the young kids are responding to this
[1:13:53] because they're scandalized and this is a coping mechanism. I want to end maybe end with that and one other question, but but if I have finished with the confession thing. >> the the priest is used to dealing with CIA people. So, you can speak in generalities and that's That's fine. >> He knows what you're trying to what you're trying to do. >> Um, in Greece >> Forgive me, Father, for I sinned. I was rough with a client this week. >> Is that a good confession? >> That's a good confession. In Greece, it's different. You look them right in the eye and they read a list of sins.
[1:14:23] And you have to say, "Yeah, I did that." >> that better. >> do that. That's better. Uh-huh. That seems easier. >> It's It's I mean, I went to confession yesterday. It's I mean, you know, I've been Catholic 25 years. It's still not easy. Yeah, it's not easy. So, hummus, we should talk about this. >> Yeah, you know, it's young people. It's become a meme. Well, it And you know, they're scandalized and they And you know, when you I remember when I was a young boy trying to impress my friends. We'd watch this this TV this VHS we had called Faces of Death. >> Faces of Faces of Death. >> And they had one, two,
[1:14:54] three and we'd laugh. >> Yeah. I remember watching Clockwork Orange and we'd laugh. But like inside I was grimacing. Inside I was like really uncomfortable. But we'd be laughing and watch it again and so I think all of Gen Z now is watching this hummus video which I really know nothing about. My sons were just giving me the the the cliff notes on it. And they've made a joke out of it and I think the joke is just like when we were watching Faces of Death. >> Yeah. Like watch your mouth. You're going to get some hummus up your butt. >> Like I look at this horrible thing and
[1:15:24] laugh at it cuz I'm a strong man. You think that's what that is? >> No, it's different. >> Okay. Yeah. Um so I gave an interview a couple of months ago to a podcast called Diary of a CEO. Third largest podcast on the planet. Very big deal for me. Almost 10 million views. And some kid on TikTok took some of the stories that I told on that podcast and cut them into shorts. >> First time I'm hearing all this. Okay, good. >> And he changed my voice. So for most of
[1:15:54] the story it's in an Alvin and the Chipmunks voice. And then when I say the punchline of the story it's this deep voice like this, you know? And I say I said in the podcast that we know thanks to the Senate torture report that one of the ways that Abu Zubaydah was tortured was the doctor said he was dehydrated and so instead of giving him an IV they shoved a tube up his rectum. And then using a blood pump they pumped
[1:16:25] hummus into his rectum. And I said, "Now that's potentially fatal. That's That's clearly illegal. Clearly illegal in addition to being immoral and unethical. But dangerous. Medically you can cause organs to burst. right? And cause instant sepsis and death. And um nobody was authorized to do something like that. >> When did you find out about that? >> Senate torture report. >> So you didn't know about it to No. Because they never reported it. They
[1:16:56] just did it. And said, "Guys, just between us." What were What were they You knew these people. What were they thinking? What were they thinking? >> We We socialized together. Our wives were friends. Our children played together. And they're monsters, it turns out. >> But if you were to dinner party and you slap them, they'd be horrified. >> Horrified. So I told the story and I said, "This is It's all laid out in the Senate torture report. You can see it there with your own eyes." So what do you say to the young people that are watching this and they're laughing at it, but we know
[1:17:27] they're not really You know, we know when they're watching it and their friends are sharing it and they're laughing, but but really they're scandalized at what kind of world have I been born into? Yeah. It's bad. And you know, this was revealed in the Senate torture report. You think anybody did anything about it? You think anybody went to prison? You think anybody bothered to investigate? All we ended up getting was six or seven of the CIA torture uh uh promoters wrote a little booklet,
[1:17:57] little 90-page whatever it is a booklet saying, "No, no, no, no, it's not torture, but torture worked. It worked and we saved American lives. We can't tell you the details cuz it's classified, but take our word for it. And if you If you could see what we could see >> people we saved? >> Yeah. Please. I went to prison because I told the truth about it. They're lying to you. They're lying. If anything, it cost American lives.
[1:18:28] So they're lying to us, the American people. And this is half of my audience is in the Middle East. We have a very large audience in Iraq and Excellent. >> Um I was just recently I I I guess two days ago I was in Kurdish uh Iraqi Kurdish television. What would you say to President Barzani? What would you say to our allies that are being baited into this war? Yeah. We're lying to them, aren't we? I mean, we're they're probably hearing that. >> to them. God, I I have so much respect for the Barzanis. You know, going back to Masoud Barzani
[1:19:00] and the and the liberation of Kuwait. I won't get into that, but anyway, I have a very deep respect for the Barzani family and the KDP and the PUK for that matter. Um, they're lying to you. We're not going to help Iran's Kurds. There's not going to be an independent Kurdistan. Um, they're using you only because you're a warm body who can hold a gun. And um, you know, they would rather you die than
[1:19:31] an American soldier die. Don't believe them. Don't sign on to this. It's a no-win situation. What pressure can we put on them to force them to Are we Are we Are we tightening the screws on them or We are not, but we could. I hope we don't. We could. You know, the the Iraqi Kurds are very fortunate in that as part of their um, their autonomy agreement with the central government in Baghdad, they get some of the oil revenue. Much of the oil fields in Iraq are in
[1:20:03] northern Iraq. And so, you know, the the Kurds, God bless them, they they have kind of a good thing going right now. Better than the situation that the Iranian Kurds or the Syrian Kurds are in. Don't upset the apple cart. The status quo works. Look what we did when they Brett McGurk posted a picture when they had the referendum in 2017. Um, he posted a picture of him with Iraqi soldiers standing under a sign that said, "Erbil."
[1:20:33] Threatening them. We've never had their best interests. >> Never. And they are they love the American people. >> And the Kurds are some of the the kindest people that you can encounter. They they they're they have a beautiful culture. And I don't know. They're just some of the finest people that I've ever met in my in my life. And I when I call my wife when I'm in Iraqi Kurdistan you know, she understands. You know, she hears my voice. She goes, "We're not moving there." She hears it in my voice. By the way,
[1:21:04] when I said the name Brett McGurk Yeah. >> on your face was awesome. Now, we don't we don't we don't have time to get into that guy. I've always wanted to make a documentary on that guy, but Talk about a survivor, huh? He's a sur- like a cockroach. Like a cockroach. Like a cockroach. >> The only thing that can survive a nuclear war, the cockroach. >> Is it true about the video on the roof of the embassy and him? That's my understanding. And when we finish this and stop recording, remind me to tell you something else. Okay, I got some stories, too. John, I don't want to be the man responsible for you being stuck
[1:21:34] in an ice storm. You know, I greatly admire you. What I am I couldn't be more grateful that Gen Z has discovered you and they and they're going to make a deep dive. >> grateful for this. Very grateful. Yeah. It's worth it. There's not a man in the world I would want that generation paying to more than to you and and because you've you've lived a noble, beautiful life. You're a man of faith. And you're someone that this Gen Z generation can really look up to because there's not They're looking up to a lot of people because they say they do brave
[1:22:05] things or they say true things, but their lives are they're a bewildering mix of contradictions, a lot of their heroes. And so to have just kind of a man who lived a quiet life of integrity and hard work um but was forced by circumstances into the spotlight for them for Gen Z to discover you is something I'm grateful for. And And you were very generous. You are literally the most in-demand man in the world and you took time to come on this this the rinky-dinky little outfit that Jason Jones thanks John. Good to see you man. Bless you brother. >> Thank you and you. This episode as a
[1:22:37] well how lucky are we to have John Kiriakou here on this episode has been brought you by the vulnerable people project. The mission of the vulnerable people project is to stand in solidarity with the most vulnerable people in the world when the world is left away from the Yazidis in Iraqi Kurdistan to the uyghurs in Chinese occupied East Turkistan to the Christians and to the general to all the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Go to our website vulnerablepeopleproject.com. Look at what we're doing from the Nuba Mountains of Sudan to Pakistan to Gaza. Look at what we're doing. If you want to
[1:23:07] be a part of it scroll up click on the donate button and become a monthly donor. All right guys, this is I've never been nervous when I've done an interview, but I was already nervous and then we had a time we had the snowstorm blizzard hurricane tsunami Godzilla, whatever's coming for Washington DC right now. Um but until next time it's been the Jason Jones show.