[00:00] The CIA filed a crimes report against me saying that I had revealed classified information. I had no idea. My phones were tapped, my emails were being intercepted, [music] and teams of FBI agents were following me. I get a call from and she said, "He was just ordered to shoot you in the next meeting." Well, I was working part-time at the United Food and Commercial Workers Union. At the time, it was the biggest union within the AFL CIO. And uh I worked for this guy who I did not like
[00:30] or respect at all. He was a he was a bully and just an all-around [ __ ] So in grad school, I'm taking this class called the psychology of leadership with an eminent psychiatrist named Dr. Gerald Post. And um Dr. post gave us an assignment where we had to shadow our bosses for a week and then write a psychological profile of our bosses. So, I'm working for this this [ __ ] at the union and um
[01:03] >> and I'm shadowing him for that week and on Wednesday >> and he knew this was happening. Okay. He didn't know that I was doing it for a psychological evaluation. I told him I was doing it for a paper, >> right? >> Because I didn't want him to, you know, freak out or Yeah, it was true. True. Misleading. That's right. So on Wednesday at the midpoint in the week, we got into an argument, a bad argument, and I called him a racist, which he was, and he got so mad, his face got all red, and he baldled up his fists, and he set
[01:34] a stance. And I remember specifically thinking, "Damn it, I went too far this time." >> All right. >> So I put up my hands to to, you know, protect myself from the inevitable blow. And he goes, "My penis is bigger than yours." And I said, 'What? And he goes, "My penis is bigger than yours." And I said, 'You're nuts. And I quit. And I walked out. I went back to my apartment, wrote my paper. And And it wasn't just, you know, John recounting a story, right? It this was like a serious
[02:04] academic paper with multiple citations, and I'm using, you know, the the DSM, and um it ends with my penis is bigger than yours. And I said he's he's a sociopath with psychopathic and possibly violent tendencies. That was the bottom line. Pass in the paper. >> You didn't put the the >> I told the whole story. >> Okay. >> Oh, [laughter] yeah. Yeah. I told the whole story. I tried to make it as clinical as I could, but I told the story. So, a week later, I get the paper
[02:35] back from Dr. Post and he gave me an A. And in the margin, he wrote this long thing. He said, "If you have not already done so, I urge you to quit this job. Please see me after class." So I went up to him after class. I said, "Dr. Post, you wanted to see me." And he says, "Come down to my office." We were on like the sixth floor and I think his office was on like the third floor. So I go down there and he says, "Close the door." So I closed the door and he said, "Listen, I'm not really a professor here. I'm a
[03:07] CIA officer under cover as a professor here and I'm looking for people who might fit into the CIA's culture. I think you would fit into the CIA's culture. Would you like to be a CIA officer? The truth was I was getting married in 6 weeks and I had no job. I had no prospects for a job and I wanted to see the world and I wanted to go into public service and I said sure, why not? And one thing led to the other to the other to the other and I joined
[03:39] the CIA. >> Did you also get married? >> I got married. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> All right. Um >> my wife absolutely hated that I was at the CIA. >> Why? >> She was a ballet teacher and you know like I' I'd come home from work and she would say, "How was your day?" I'd say, "Great. What'd you do?" "Nothing." "Who'd you talk to?" "Nobody." And then I'd come home sometimes like wearing a disguise. I She screamed. She screamed and picked up the phone and called 911 one time because I I didn't
[04:11] have time to change out of my disguise, right? >> And she thought I was just, you know, a burglar that was going to >> do something to her, >> right? >> So that that didn't work out. >> That that marriage >> that marriage I ended up going overseas. I switched from analysis to counterterrorism operations halfway through my career. and she hated that I was even just in the CIA even though it was just analysis. So when I switched to counterterrorism ops and you know there are multiple guns involved and crazy
[04:44] training and then we go overseas. Um it just wasn't I got a call one night at 11:00 at night and this guy says to me he didn't literally say this. He I can't tell you what he said, but what he said was akin to the rain in Spain falls mainly in the plains. And I'm like, "Mayers eat oats and do oats and little lambs Ivy." And we both hung up and I said, "I got to go." She goes, "What do you mean you got
[05:15] to go? It's 11:00 at night." I said, "I got to go." So, that triggered a three-hour surveillance detection route, which then led me to a meeting in the parking lot of a closed business from 2:00 to 4:00 a.m. and then another 2-hour surveillance detection route back home so that I could take a shower, shave, get dressed, and go do my day job at the American Embassy. Well, part of that meeting was me sitting in a garbage
[05:46] dumpster waiting for another guy to drive by and throw a bag of documents in. So, I get home at 6:00 a.m. and she's like, "What's her name?" >> Oh my god. >> Mhm. And I said to her, "Do I smell like I've been a woman with a woman?" >> All right. >> Like, seriously? I said, "You got to stop, Joanne. You got to stop. I was working. You know, I was working.
[06:17] Yeah. Well, we we'll see about that, you know. >> And we ended up getting divorced. I don't know, 18 months later, I guess it was. >> Where were you living at that at that time? >> Athens. >> Okay. The other thing is I thought you were So, you said you were an analyst at first. For how many years were you an analyst? >> Seven and a half years. >> Oh, jeez. That's a huge huge That was a huge jump. So, seven and a half years and and then you moved and and Okay. >> I I was going nuts with the boredom is Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, 24 hours a day,
[06:48] Iraq. And you know, Bill Clinton was president at the time and I'm like, well, clearly this administration's not serious about Iraq. >> Right. >> Right. I got to do something different. Otherwise, I'm going to be here after 30 years still talking about Iraq. So there there's an internal classified uh job board um in the in the CIA computer system and this job popped up and it was for a counterterrorism operations officer in Athens and it said that the
[07:19] successful candidate will speak either Greek or Arabic. And as it turned out I was the only person in the entire CIA that spoke both Greek and Arabic. So, I went down to the to the guy that was in charge of hiring, a recently returned, like very senior station chief, and I introduced myself, and I said, "Listen, I don't have any operational experience whatsoever. Nothing. But I'm fluent in both Greek and Arabic." And he says, "You've got to
[07:49] be kidding me." I said, "No, seriously. I saw the listing." And he said, "Okay, listen. I want you to take a couple of operational tests." which I aced. But he said, "It is a lot easier and a lot cheaper for me to take a linguist and teach him operations than to take an operations officer and teach him how to speak Greek and Arabic." >> Yeah, I'm sure. >> So, they gave me the job. I went through the training. It was something called the operations course accelerated because I didn't need what they called
[08:20] at the time CIA 101. This is what this office does. This is what this other office does. I had already been in for seven and a half years. I knew what all the offices did. So, I went straight to the meat of the operational training and it's a lot of weapons and driving and explosives and then and then the sort of day-to-day job of recruiting spies to steal secrets >> that that it's I'm still focused on the fact that you were the only person that out of the CIA that that spoke both
[08:51] languages like like you would think >> you would think, >> you know, I and I understand after 9/11 that's the key right there was a huge shift where they they kind of sat back and they said all of our people look the same. They all have like like we're not diversified enough to infiltrate >> or or necessarily even understand these other cultures. We're just monitoring right now, but we're not really >> uh um a able to uh do it properly because we're not diversified enough. You know, there it's all six foot tall, blonde hair, blue-eyed uh men with, you
[09:23] know, with uh degrees in, you know, with with law degrees or or whatever. >> Exactly. But yeah, that's an that's that's that's interesting and I understand that after that they went and >> after after 911 literally everything changed. So before 911 it was about 200 applicants for every one job. After 911 it became and has stayed as about 2500 applicants for every one job. But before 911, if you had a language, yeah, good on
[09:54] you. If it was high school, French, German, Italian, Spanish, that's fine. After 911, very specifically, Arabic, Farsy, Dari, Pashtu, Ordu, Cindi, Punjabi, Tajik, Usuzbck, Korean, Mandarin, and Russian. You got to have something because the other 2499 people, they're going to ask if they have something, >> right? You you get a divorce. Do you do you come back to the States after that? >> I came back to the States after that and started dating a senior CIA officer and
[10:27] um traveled a lot operationally even before 911. my my expertise is the Middle East and uh so I spent most of my career in the Middle East and um was doing things like training Middle Eastern intelligence services in counterterrorism operations and um then I'd go back to Athens to you know do something break into a house and plan a bug or whatever. Uh I thoroughly enjoyed that. >> I was going to say this seems like a lot
[10:57] of fun. Listen, when when I was in Pakistan after 911, >> I worked so hard. I was chief of of uh operations in Pakistan after 911. >> And I was there for I don't know six, seven months. And I'm going to go back for a couple of months before returning to Pakistan for three more months. So I hadn't been on a vacation in years. and my then girlfriend, she later became my fiance and then my wife. We had planned this trip to uh Santa Fe, New Mexico.
[11:29] I'd never been. Everybody says it's so beautiful and great art scene and great restaurants. We want to go to Santa Fe. So, it's like 4 hours before I leave for the airport and I get this cable and it says, "Don't come home. instead change your flight and go to this other country because we want you to lead a team. You're going to break into this guy's house and plant cameras all over. I was like, "Fuck." So, I called her and I said, "Listen, I
[12:00] am so sorry." And she said, "No, no." >> Yeah. She's got to understand. She knows the deal. >> Yeah. I saw the cable. Go do your breakin. We'll go We'll go to Santa Fe some other time. And so I went I did the break-in and then I went back to Pakistan again for three more months and um >> never never got the vacation. >> Never got the vacation. What are you going to do? >> Um >> I I'm curious can is can you go into any detail about I break into the house and
[12:30] I and I bug this house with cameras like >> Yeah, I'll tell you one funny thing about that. Um, so I meet up with um with Liaison, the the that country's uh intelligence service. It's a country of islands. So we have to take a a boat to get to the island where this guy's this guy was a like a serious terrorism support guy, a money guy, >> right? >> I used to avoid looking at my bank account, not because I didn't care, but because I knew there was stuff in there
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[14:03] That's rocketmoney.comcox. rocketmoney.comx. >> I bring what's called a locks and picks team with me. They're the lockpickers. >> You know, they get the stethoscope and they're, you know, listening to the tumblers. It's all very interesting to watch them do their thing. And so we get to this house [laughter] and the locks and picks guy says, "This is one of these German security doors." He goes, "It's going to take me two weeks to get into this thing." You know, they've got these steel bolts that come
[14:34] out into the, you know, out of the door into the door jamb. It's a steel lined door. He We can't We can't break into this. I was like, "Dog gone it. I flew halfway around the world for this." So, we're all standing there like, "Now, what are we going to do?" Like, we've been ordered to do this. >> You reach over and turn the handle. >> I walked around to the back of the house and there's a $5 Yale lock on the back door. >> Okay. >> It's like, why would people do something like that, >> right? >> So, I come around, I go, "Guys, you got
[15:04] to see the back door." We go back there, they're like, "You got to be kidding." So, we're in. We did our thing. Locked it back up. It reminds me of like a police officer's job. Like everybody thinks it's so cool and exciting and everything. It's like, no, no, it's 99% paperwork and pure boredom and then it's 1% of absolute adrenalinefilled excitement and then it's right back to, >> you know, for every hour of excitement, there's 12 hours or 15 hours of
[15:35] paperwork. >> Yeah. It's like hurry up and wait, right? You know, but but then but then when you look back over your career of 20 years, you can sit down for 4 hours straight and tell one amazing story after amazing story and people like, "My god, you lived a life." You're like, >> "But all those stories were over the course of 15 years, so it sounds great." You know, it's [clears throat] like uh when you talk about >> flipping houses and real estate, you're like, "Yeah, yeah, I bought the house for 40,000. I put 10,000 in. I sold it for 200,000." You're like, "OH MY GOD, I GOT TO GET A PIECE OF THAT." >> YEAH. That was six months. I didn't tell you about the guy that fell off the
[16:06] roof. I didn't tell by the three air conditioners getting stolen, the kids throwing rocks through the windows, you know, sounds great. Lots of things sound great. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so what happens at at that time? When is has 911 happened yet? >> No. So I get back from Athens in August of 2000. I start training these Middle Eastern services and then I'm I'm handling a couple of sensitive cases. I I got a call I got a call in the uh spring of 2001
[16:38] from a buddy of mine who was a station chief in the Middle East and he says to me, "Hey, could you do me a favor?" And I said, "Of course." He goes, "We've recruited a double agent who doesn't know that we know he's a double agent working for one of our greatest enemies." >> Mhm. >> on the planet. He's been instructed to insist that he meets only with me, the chief.
[17:10] And I said, "Okay." And he says, "It's too dangerous for me to meet this guy. I have to live here. Can you come out here every month and pretend to be me and handle this guy?" I said, "Oh, that sounds like fun." I said, "I'm I'm bored." >> They don't know what he looks like. >> No, they don't know what he looks like. >> They were trying to draw him out. Like they know that there's a station chief, a CIA station chief somewhere in the embassy. They don't know who among these, you know, 20 people is the station chief. >> So,
[17:40] >> did did he want you to wear a t-shirt that had a big a big uh target? I mean, that's kind of what it comes down to. >> That doesn't sound exciting at all. >> Ah, no, it's exciting. I I was an adrenaline junkie. I I I >> you know, sitting in a cubicle in headquarters like this, it's just it's not for me. >> Yeah. Oh, >> so um >> I'll pick that over. Can you please pretend to be someone that these guys definitely are trying to kill and want to kill? >> So I fly out, I meet with a guy and um
[18:12] and I said to him in our very first meeting, I said, "Listen, the fact that we're meeting is dangerous. Not for me. If we get caught, I'm going to get thrown out and I don't care. if you get caught, you're gonna get arrested because you're working for the Americans. >> So, we need to go over something called a surveillance detection route. And I explained to him what it was. You drive here, you make a stop, you buy an an apple, you go over here, and you buy a newspaper, you go over there and pick up your dry cleaning.
[18:43] So, I laid out a map of the city and I gave him a sample of, you know, what you do. So, I said, "Always leave 2 hours before our meeting, drive around, come to the meeting exactly on time. when you walk into the lobby, call me and I'll tell you what floor to come up to. And then you come up to that floor. I'd give him a big bear hug to just pat him down really for weapons. And then I'd say, "Wait here 5 minutes and then come up to room, you know, 605, whatever." That way if he brought people with him
[19:16] to kill me, you know, I at least have a fighting chance in the elevator lobby. So, we did this. He We had our first meeting and I said, "Now remember, you do a surveillance detection route back to your house." Okay. Okay. Gave him an assignment. Rent a post office box in case we lose contact. You can leave a message in the post office box. I'm going to check it twice a week and then that'll trigger the emergency meeting. Okay. He goes directly from the hotel to
[19:50] the hostile embassy. and says, "I just met the station chief. It's, you know, this is his description." So, I go directly back to the airport and then fly back to Washington. I had what at the time was called a triband phone. So, it was a local number in that country, but it would ring anywhere that I was in the world, but you just dial it as a local number. Now, every phone does that, but that back then, and this is 26 years ago, this was a big deal 25 years ago. So, we would set up our next meeting.
[20:23] It's called the mad minute. As soon as you walk in, I give you the bear hug. I pat you down and I said, "Did Were you followed here?" "No." "Um, have you had any problems since I met you last?" "No." "Um, our next meeting is going to be a month from tonight at the Marriott." Okay. just in case somebody busts in the door and you know grabs you and that that way at least you've got the the bonafites established. So the next month I fly out, same thing. The month after that I fly out and he's
[20:55] given me [ __ ] information. So what I would normally do is finish the meeting and he didn't know we had like four security guys in the lobby. We had a guy down at the end of the hall. Everybody's armed. I'm armed. Um, and he's just going straight to that hostile embassy and reporting back on what we said or what I said in the meeting. So, I go home and I get a call from NSA
[21:27] and the woman says, "Are you handling this double agent case out in the Middle East?" And I said, "Yeah." And she said, "I got to tell you, he was just ordered to shoot you in the next meeting." I said, "Oh, please. This guy's afraid of his shadow. He's not going to shoot me. Then my boss comes busting out of his office. Oh my god. I just got a call from NSA that I said, I know, I know. They they called me to. He said, we have to abort the operation. I said, absolutely not. I said, Doug, this guy
[21:58] is 25 years older than I am. He's 50 pounds overweight. He's afraid of his own shadow. He's not going to kill me in the next meeting. So I said, ' Just hear me out. I have a couple of ideas. He convenes this panel. It's like the director of counterterrorism, the deputy director for operations, whole bunch of people. I said, "Please just just listen to my idea. Let's do the next meeting at the Marriott because every Marriott in the world looks
[22:29] exactly the same." And so you walk into a Marriott room and the bathroom's right there on the right or the left. We'll get an adjoining room so our liaison counterparts and our security guys can be in the next room. I'm going to prop the door open. He's going to call me from the lobby and I'm going to say instead of coming up to the, you know, sixth floor, I'm going to say just come straight into room 425. I'll prop it open. You know those those latches? I'll just open the latch so
[23:00] that the door's propped open. He's going to knock on the door. I say, "Come in." He comes in. I grab him. You guys bust in from the next room and we take him. They're like, "Well, okay, but only if you wear a bulletproof vest." I said, "Fine." So, I fly back out to the Middle East and sure enough, um, our security guys are in the lobby. Well, the bad guys also had their security guys in the lobby.
[23:31] So, it's four of our guys, four of their guys. They're all giving each other the stink eye. Everybody's armed. Like, who are all these people? The Marriott people are oblivious. >> So, he calls as he's walking in the embassy. I mean, uh, into the lobby and, um, I said, "Come on up to room 425." So, our security guys told me he left his house. He went straight to the hostile embassy and straight from the hostile embassy to the Marriott. So, I
[24:03] said, "Okay, he's he's loaded for bear. I'm ready to go." >> Probably picked up the weapon. Yeah, >> exactly. So, he comes up to the room. He knocks on the door. I said, "Come in." He comes in. I come out of the bathroom. I grab him like in a bear hug and I just slam him down onto the ground and he's he's like, "Allah abar, Allah abar." So, I'm sitting on him. Our guys and the liaison guys bust in from the next room. I wrestled the gun out of his
[24:34] hand. He was so scared. He never even actually got a grip on it. He was fumbling trying to get it out of his waistband. But I got the gun from him and I'm sitting on his chest. I have his arms pinned on the ground. And I said to him, "Do you really think I'm so [ __ ] stupid that I didn't know that you came here to kill me today?" Allah, I said, "Do you think I'm such a [ __ ] amateur that I didn't know from the very
[25:05] beginning that you were a double agent?" I said, "I'm offended." >> I did. All right. >> He's screaming. He's swearing. So, one of the dirty little secrets of hotels is people die in them every day. Mhm. >> Right. So, there's a standard operating procedure for when people die. You call an ambulance, they go to the back to the loading dock, you bring the gurnie up to the room, you cover the body up in a sheet, you take it down the service elevator. So we gave him a quick shot of
[25:38] Demorall, knocked him out, put him on a gurnie, covered him up like he was dead, took him down the service elevator, put him in an ambulance, and took him to the intelligence service headquarters. >> His guys are still st sitting in the lobby. >> Yeah. [clears throat] And they start talking to each other like, "Where is he? What's going on? Why is this taking so long? We haven't heard any shots. Something went wrong. Do you think he's he's flipped? Do you think he's dead? Did they kill him? Are they on to him? We were already, you know, gone from the hotel. Finally,
[26:09] our security guys just leave. No reason to hang out there. So, when he wakes up like 4 hours later, he's he's tied to a chair in the intelligence service headquarters. And I said, "Look, this can be easy or it can be terrible. It's up to you. Where are the weapons?" That's all I want to know. He was the founder of a terrorist group in that country that was
[26:40] causing the government there some significant problems. We needed to nip this [ __ ] in the bud. I said, "Where are the where are the weapons?" He goes, "Fuck you." I said, "Again, this can be easy or it can be terrible." >> Yeah, that was the wrong answer. >> Where are the weapons? I [ __ ] your mother, he says. I'm like, okay. My leazison counterparts just start whailing on him and then they finish. Where are the weapons? He's all like I [ __ ] your sister.
[27:13] I'm like okay. So >> I I don't get that. In the end you're going to talk to you can talk beat the you can talk without with you can miss some teeth and have some broken bones and talk or you can be completely intact and have a hamburger and talk. We can talk over hamburgers or we can talk while you're out. >> Bring a bring you a cup of coffee. We can sit. >> Nobody's not gonna Nobody doesn't not talk. >> Exactly. So I said to to my counterparts, I said, "Listen, why don't we have a locks and picks team on
[27:44] standby? Let's just let's just go into his house and just see if the weapons are in there." They said, "Can't do it. He's got a maid. She never leaves the house. She's there now." I said, "Okay, then let's say let's say we we declare a a gas leak in the neighborhood and we evacuate everybody." He lived in a little culde-sac with six houses. We evacuate everybody in the culde-sac. They said, "Can't do that. We don't have natural gas lines here. We have propane. We use
[28:15] propane." I'm like, "My god, you guys. Do I have to think of everything? Bring an 18-wheeler into the culdesac," which we did. I turn this giant wheel. The propane gushes onto the ground. I close the giant wheel. We call the equivalent of 911. I think it was 115. And the fire department comes to hose down the propane and they declare an environmental emergency and they evacuate everybody from the houses. I'm like, seriously, was that that hard? So, we go into the house and he's got
[28:46] this safe, like a six foot high, >> like a gun safe. like a gun safe but but deeper, >> right? >> So, the locks and picks guys, they have their their uh stethoscopes and they're listening. We're all being very quiet and and they open the safe and it's empty except for one thing. There was a a handdrawn map. And I'm not exaggerating when I tell you there's an X on the map and it says the weapons are here with an arrow.
[29:19] I'm like, "You got to be kidding." So, we all get in these two Land Rovers and we start driving out into the desert. So, it's like, you know, you go, 1500 meters and then you make a left at the palm tree and then you go another 500 meters and you make a right at the giant rock. >> So, this is a treasure map, right? >> Yeah, it was a treasure map. So we go out there and we find a bunker, like a dugout bunker
[29:49] with every weapon, every explosive and landmine and bullet that this entire terrorist group had. We completely put them out of business. The group doesn't exist anymore. And then I don't know, five years ago or so, I ran into one of the guys that was on my team at the mall in Tyson's Corner, Virginia. And I'm like, whatever happened to that dude we took down? >> I was just wondering what happened to the guy. There comes a point in life
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[37:00] met me at my place. We went up to the roof and watched the Pentagon burn. But anyway, I I get to the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge and I see the deputy national security adviser crossing the bridge with this mass of people. He's got no shoes. And I was like, what the [ __ ] is happening? This is the guy that's supposed to be running the government, >> right, >> in this crisis. And he ran from the White House without shoes. >> Like, this is the situation we're in.
[37:32] >> Yeah. >> So, we watched the Pentagon burn for a little while and then we we went out, we tried to give blood, but the lines were so long. It's, you know, 24-hour line to give blood. I said to her, "This is ridiculous. we got to get back to work. So, we walked back to my car, 3 and a half miles. I drove across the median and turned around and I went back to CIA and then I stayed there for the next 4 days. I just slept under my desk. >> So, what were what were the marching orders at at that point? Like, how long did it take them to kind of rally
[38:03] together and say, "Okay, >> and and were you you were 100% sure when it happened?" We already you already knew this is what we've been predicting. This is what happened. This is who's behind it. this guy standing behind me. He's like, he whispers, "This has to be Hezbollah, right?" And I go, "Are you retarded?" "No, it's not Hezbollah." Like, "Do you not read the papers?" Even if you're not reading the classified traffic, like everybody in America knew this was al-Qaeda. They kept telling us they were going to do it, like goating us into, you know, trying to do
[38:34] something to stop them. So, it took a good 24 hours before we were able to snap out of it. Um, funny thing was that uh my my Arabic was excellent and I kept volunteering like every day volunteering. You got to send me to Afghanistan. You got to send me to Afghanistan. Right? Cuz I heard this rumor they're putting a team together. You got to send me to Afghanistan. Well, I don't know if you've ever heard of this this like bonafide American hero named Billy Wah. Billy lived here in
[39:04] Florida. Billy had 17 Purple Hearts, which was one short of the record for the United States. Billy and I were doing this cool thing in the Middle East together just the week before 9/11. I I just got back to headquarters on September 9th and then Billy disappears. So like six weeks later, I see him in the hall. I said I said, "Billy, where you been?" And he goes, "Been in Afghanistan." I said, "Really? what are
[39:34] you doing in Afghanistan? He goes, I've been killing people. What do you think I've been doing? And that's when I finally realized, well, that's why they haven't taken me. They're not interrogating anybody. They don't need translators. They need killers. >> Mhm. >> Finally, I got so frustrated. I went to the deputy director's office and I said, he was a friend of mine. I said, "Listen, if you don't send me to Afghanistan right now, I am walking straight to Exxon with my Arabic and I
[40:07] am not looking back." He's like, "Will you relax?" Okay. All right. Can you go to Pakistan? I said, "Yes." "When?" He said, "Tomorrow." I said, "Yes." "What do you want me to do? I want you to be chief of counterterrorism ops." I said, 'Okay. I called my girlfriend. I said, 'I got to go to Pakistan tomorrow. She said, 'Okay. How long?' I said, "I don't know, 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, I don't know." She said, "Okay, I'll meet you at your place. I'll help you pack." So, uh, we met up at my place. I packed
[40:38] a suitcase. The next morning, I went into headquarters just to say goodbye cuz I'm thinking, you know, is this it? I don't know. So, I go to say goodbye to everybody, getting big bear hugs. My boss gives me a hug and he leans in and he says, "Kill them all." And I said, ' Really, John? We're already at that point. And he says, 'Kill every one of them.' So I went out to the airport. I [laughter] went up to the United counter. The guy says, "Where are you going?" I said, I put my passport on the
[41:11] counter. I said, "Islamabad, Pakistan." And he looks at me, he goes, "Better thee than me." >> Right? >> I said, "Just hope I come back." And then I I went How long were you How long were we there? >> Six months. And um >> And what's happening there? >> All hell was breaking loose. We were bombing the [ __ ] out of Tora Bora in Afghanistan. And so the bombing was so relentless that literally all of al-Qaeda was running across the mountains into Pakistan. So my on my
[41:44] first day, yeah, I arrived at 4:00 a.m. I had to be at the embassy at 7:00. I begged the driver said, "Please, I'm begging you. Just let me let me sleep an extra hour. pick me up at 8. So at 8, he picks me up and um I go into the into the embassy to meet my chief and he says, "Here's what I want you to do. I want you to come up with a standard operating procedure for taking down a terrorist safe house." I said, "Okay." So I go back to my office. I have a legal pad and I'm like, "Okay, so if I'm
[42:15] going to take down a terrorist safe house, what would I do?" And I wrote 0200 at the top of the paper, right? I would want it to be dark. I would want everybody to be asleep, my targets to be asleep. And then I thought, I need guns, ammunition, battering rams, bulletproof vests, uh, night vision goggles, ammunition, secure communications, scrambled walkie-talkies. So, I go to galls.com, this police supply house in Kentucky
[42:46] with my CIA credit card, and I I spent $50,000. And a week later it all arrives in the diplomatic pouch and um I started putting together the teams. I went over to Pakistani liaison ISI the Pakistani intelligence service and um I had already gone over there to introduce myself but we had you know equal numbers of CIA FBI ISI and then after the first week I got a
[43:18] tip that there's this safe house and there's some al-Qaeda guys in it. So, I said, "Okay, guys. Let's give it a try. See what happens." 0200. We go over there. We bust down the door. Two 18-year-old kids. And they both burst into tears. So, we cough them. One of them asked me if he can call his mom. And I'm like, "No, you can't call your mom." And I said to this FBI friend of mine, I go, "This is al-Qaeda. these children,
[43:53] this is what we're so afraid of. Like this was a revelation for me. So we took them to the safe house, we interrogated them and then we put him in the Rahul Pindi jail. Rahul Pindi is a massive city that's attached to Islamabad. It's the headquarters of the Pakistani military. >> But but those kids are cogs in a wheel. You they're just tools. Like they're not running. They're no >> they're not they're not the person. They're not the puppet master. They're just the the the puppet master.
[44:23] >> They're the grunts. But then at the same time, >> in our minds, we had built these guys up into being supermen. They just took down both World Trade Center towers >> and shut down the Pentagon for all intents and purposes. >> I just expected a little bit more of a fight >> and there was but that's what you get. You're 18, 19 years old. You're stupid. You don't know anything. You're idealistic. I mean, that's exactly what it was. I mean, that's what that's what our troops are. 18, 19, 20, you know, because they don't ask a lot of questions and >> they just do as they're told, >> right? >> So, I get a call.
[44:54] >> You're broke and this is >> and and they're giving you 500 bucks a month. That's a that's a king's rant, >> right? >> So, I get a call from a friendly Arab uh intelligence service, this brigadier general. And he says to me, I understand that uh you're the man when it comes to safe houses. And I said, >> I've got a vast experience taking down the one thing. >> I'm the man >> with the two 18-year-olds. So he said, "I have uh I have an address to pass to you." I said, "Why don't you come over to the embassy? We'll have lunch." So he comes over to the embassy. We sit and
[45:25] have lunch. This guy was one of these uh he was not wearing his military uniform, which struck me as kind of funny. He was wearing a beautiful suit. >> But where are you? >> I'm in Islamabad. He want does he want to walk walk around in his suit? I mean in in his um uniform. He's supposed to because Yeah, because >> he's a brigadier general and and he's in a military position in his embassy. >> But how safe is it to do that though? >> Well, I mean, you're you're in the
[45:55] backseat of an armored car. You've got a driver. You and the driver both have weapons. >> It's as safe as it's going to be in Islamabad, Pakistan. You know, it's not like you're on vacation there or anything, right? So I realized very quickly he's he's afraid. That's why he doesn't want to do this himself. Just give it to the Americans. He's afraid. That's why he's not wearing his uniform. So I take the address. I say, "Thank you." I call the FBI. I call ISI. We
[46:27] gather for for the raid that night. We bust down the door. And this one was serious. This one we caught a member of um EIGJ, Egyptian Islamic Jihad. They were the ones that killed Anoir Sadat back in 1981 and they merged with al-Qaeda in like 1995. Imani was the founder. He became Bin Laden's deputy. So, this one was kind of a big deal. This was a good tip, >> right? >> And then we did a couple nights where we
[46:58] had two raids in the same night and those were successful. So my boss calls me into the office and he says he said uh you know we've got we've got these officers all the way up and down the Pakistan Afghanistan border and they're just not having success catching these guys as they're taking what we call the rat lines >> you know through the valleys and they're they're successfully getting into into
[47:29] Pakistan and they're hiding. what do you think we should do? I said, you know, I don't think we need all these guys on the border. I don't think we need anybody on the border because they're not going to catch anybody and the villagers are hostile. Let's pull everybody off the border. We'll let al-Qaeda come into the country because we know they're going to make a mistake, which they always did. They get to Pakistan, they go into their Gmail account, which gives us a physical location. We bust down the door, we grab
[48:00] everybody. >> You've already had success doing that at this point. >> Yeah. And so now they're giving us their locations because they won't stay off the phone. So that was successful. And then um then we got a tip that Abu Zubedo was in the country. We believed Abu Zubedo was the number three at the time, right? And so we set out to It's a very long story. You've heard it a thousand times. >> He was further down the the line, but he was Yes. >> He was still a bad guy. >> Yes. >> But not the number three in al-Qaeda, but we we caught him and then you just
[48:33] went right back to the to the one-off raids, one, two, three a week. I returned to headquarters in May of 2002 and uh a a colleague in the counterterrorism center approached me when I was in the cafeteria and very nonchalantly he said, "Do you want to be certified in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques?" I said, "What is that? I never heard that before." He goes, "We're going to get rough with these guys." I said, "What's that mean?" He described these techniques. I said I
[49:03] said, "Buddy, that sounds like a torture program, right?" >> He goes, "It's not a torture program. the Justice Department approved it and the president signed it. We're going to do it. Are you in or out? I go, you know what? Give me an hour. I need to think about this. I went up to the seventh floor of the agency, the executive floor. And um there was a very, very, very senior officer up there for whom I had worked in the Middle East 10 years earlier. And so I knocked on the door, no appointment. I said, "I need some advice." I was just asked if I wanted to
[49:34] be trained in these enhanced interrogation techniques. What do you think of that? And he says, "First, let's call a spade a spade. This is a torture program. They can call it whatever euphemism they want, but this is a torture program. And torture is a slippery slope. And you know these guys, he said they're cowboys. They're going to kill somebody. They're going to beat somebody to death. Then there's going to be a congressional investigation." I was just going to say, "Yeah, I think you're going to be talking in front of Congress three years from now." >> Exly. And then there's going to be a Justice Department investigation and
[50:05] then somebody's going to go to prison. You want to go to prison? And I said, "No, I don't want to go to prison." I say all the time, as it turned out, I was the only one who went to prison. But I went back downstairs. I said, "This is a torture program. I want no part of it." So, um, that was when I first started to realize that we took 9/11 so deeply personally that the law meant nothing anymore. You know, if you want to torture people, you and I can agree to disagree, but if you want
[50:36] to torture people, you got to change the law because the law's clear. You can't do that, >> right? >> So, I started thinking maybe it's time to move on in life. And I stuck it out for another year and a half, a little bit more than a year and a half. And uh and I resigned. And then you know even after I resigned, I kept waiting for somebody to go public and say
[51:06] this is happening. This torture thing is happening. There were rumors everywhere. All the networks were talking about it. All the NOS's were talking about it. that nobody would actually come out and confirm it. Finally, in December of uh 2007 now, I've been out of the agency for about three and a half years. Um Brian Ross calls me from ABC News and he says that he has a source who said that I tortured Abu Zubeda. I said, "Absolutely untrue. I was the only
[51:37] person who was kind to Abu Zubeda." Well, he says, "You're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself." I didn't know that that was a reporter's trick. I had never spoken to a reporter before. >> Right. [gasps] >> In the meantime, George W. Bush is looking right into the camera and he's lying to us. We do not torture, he goes. I'm like, he's a freaking liar. So, in the end, I was able to deduce
[52:07] that Brian Ross' source was at the White House and that they were going to try to pin this torture program on me because I was the only one who said no to it and they were getting outed. And so, I called Brian and I said, "I'll give you your interview." And I decided in the days leading up to the interview that whatever he asked me, I was just going to tell the truth and let the cards fall. And boy, did they fall. So the CIA filed a crimes report against me with the Justice Department saying
[52:37] that I had revealed classified information. The FBI investigated me for a year from December of '07 to December of '08 and then closed the case. They sent my attorneys a declination letter declining to prosecute. >> Yeah. >> That that almost never happens. Usually they just they they might drop it, but they don't tell you. They just let you be >> exactly >> lose a lot of sleep. So my wife and I actually went out that night and celebrated. We were so happy. >> But I suppose you'd married the girlfriend. >> Yeah, I had married the girlfriend from the agency. And
[53:10] three weeks later, Barack Obama becomes president. He names John Brennan first as CIA director, but he he couldn't make it through the process. So he becomes the deputy national security adviser. John and I always hated each other. So and he's one of the creators of the torture program. He secretly asks Eric Holder, the attorney general, to secretly reopen the case against me. I had no idea that for the next three years, my phones were
[53:40] tapped, my emails were being intercepted, and teams of FBI agents were following me everywhere I went. So, finally, in January of 2012, they arrest me. They charged me with five felonies. three counts of espionage, one count of making a false statement. We were never really clear as to exactly what the false statement was supposed to have been, and one count of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1981. >> I was the only person ever charged with
[54:12] that crime. Um, >> and and h how did And this is all this is all stemming from the one interview, >> the interview with with ABC News. >> Okay. Wh what what was the um espionage portion like? What what what did you say that was government secrets? >> I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. I said that torture was official US government policy and I said that the policy had been personally approved by the president himself. >> Okay. Is it
[54:42] >> this is a death penalty charge? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And that's espionage. Like I don't understand. Well, see, but this was what the Obama administration did. Of course, that's not espionage. You know it. I know it. It's not espionage. But they redefined espionage. My my case set a precedent. Um the judge in my case, Judge Leani Brinkma, said that she was not going to respect precedents set in other federal district courts. That she was going to redefine espionage as
[55:13] very simply providing national defense information to any person not entitled to receive it. >> And my lawyer got Yeah. How do you determine who's not allowed to see it? I >> who determines what national defense information is? >> Right. It's never been defined. The law doesn't even mention classified information because the classification system hadn't been invented yet when the law was passed in 1917. So my lawyers got up and said, "Your honor, are you saying that a person can
[55:45] accidentally commit espionage?" And she said, "That's exactly what I'm saying." And then she says to me, "Mr. Kuryaku, you either did it or you didn't do it. And I think you did it. And I think you need to talk about a plea. >> Well, that's not a good sign at all. >> No, >> not not with a death penalty. Not with a death penalty on the table. >> They offered me 45 years. I said, I'm not doing 45 minutes. So, my lawyers are like, we're going to fight this. We're going to go to trial.
[56:15] We're going to we're going to, you know, do this. We're going to do that. We're going to make these motions. We we blocked off three days for 150 motions. We go into court and she says, "Let me make this easy for everybody. I'm denying all 150 of these motions." Right. And they were to declassify 150 documents that I needed to defend myself in >> a case. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And she goes, "Plea, Mr. Kiryaku."
[56:46] Like, what kind of fair trial is that? >> Yeah. Yeah. She's already determined you're you're guilty. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we went 10 months like that with this hanging over my head 45 years. And then after 10 months, >> but you're out on bond. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And are you and these are paid attorneys from you? >> Oh, boy. Are they >> I mean, this is this is what this is. Are are these uh are they taking it on proono or you just you just >> Half of them were okay. The Washington
[57:17] Post called my attorneys legal titans. These were the guys who had represented Monica Lewinsky and Aldrich Ames and Attorney General uh John Mitchell during Watergate. And these guys are giants who are on the front page of the Post and the New York Times all the time, >> but they've wiped you out financially. You're wiped out. >> I gave them everything I had and ran up a bill of another $1,150,000. So, um, 10 months pass with this hanging over my
[57:50] head like an anvil and DOJ comes back and they said, "Take a plea to an espionage charge, 10 years." I said, "Absolutely not." That was on a Monday. On Wednesday, they said, "Eight years." And I said, "I'm not doing it." And then on Friday, they came back and said, "Five years. We're not going any lower. I said, I'll go to trial. I'll go to trial and I'll testify on my own behalf and I might accidentally talk
[58:21] about some of the hideous crimes against humanity and war crimes that I witnessed in 15 years at the CIA. Then they come back the next week. Well, first my lead attorney, legendary figure named Plato Cacheras, he's dead now, but he said, "You know, I've been an attorney in this city for 52 years, and this is the first time I've seen them come down in their offers. Usually they offer you 10, you say no, the next offer is 15, then the next offer is 20." I
[58:53] said, "Why are they coming down in time?" And without missing a beat, he says, "Because they have a [ __ ] case and they know it's shit." and that's why we're going to trial. I'm like, okay, let's go to trial. So, they come back and they say, um, three and a half years best and final. So, >> I was thinking five was good. >> So, my wife and I stayed up all night long. Now, remember, nobody in American
[59:24] history has ever been charged with the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. So there's no precedent. We stayed up all night. We found two articles in the Harvard Law Law Review that talk about this case. They're saying this this not this case, this law this law is unconstitutional. It should never have been passed, but nobody's been charged with it. So there's nobody there's nobody to have standing to challenge it in court. >> Right. >> But you have to challenge it
[59:54] postconviction, >> right? >> Yeah. So, >> no thanks. [laughter] >> So, at 7:00 that morning, I emailed the attorneys and I said, "I'm turning it down. I want to go to trial." And Plato, well, one the one of the other attorneys emails me back and says, "Put on a pot of coffee. Uh, we're coming to the house." So, they arrive at the house. Plato was the first one in. Plato was a mean old man. And he says to me, he gets right in my face. He goes, "You stupid
[1:00:26] son of a [ __ ] take the [ __ ] deal. I said, "You're the one who told me to go to trial. You're the one who said they have a [ __ ] case." He goes, "I said that just to keep your your morale up." So, there were three lead attorneys. The second one, Bob Trout, one of the loveliest men you'll meet, beautiful suits, southern gentleman. He pulls me aside and he says, "If you were my own brother, I would ask you, I would beg
[1:00:57] you to take the deal." And then Mark McDougall, he was the head of white collar defense at Aken Gump and Strauss, the biggest law firm in the world. He says to me, and he's the guy that I liked and respected the most. He says to me angrily, "You know what your problem is? your problem is you think this is about justice and it's not about justice. It's about mitigating damage. Take the deal.
[1:01:29] So I said, Mark, if I don't take the deal and I'm convicted, what am I realistically looking at here? He says 12 to 18 years. Take the [ __ ] deal. So they called DOJ and they said 30 months he does 23. And they said all right. And so instead of 45 years, I got 23 months. And Mark said one other thing. He said, "This is the right thing to do." He goes, "This could be a blip in your life
[1:02:01] or it could be the defining event of your life." >> Oh, yeah. >> Make it the blip. >> Yeah. You get 20 years and you could tell everybody in prison for 20 years or you shouldn't be there. >> Yeah. Exactly. How'd that work out for you? Um, was that like I I [snorts] mean I I I don't know. I There's lots of things that change, but I mean was that binding on the judge or was it all >> That's a great question. >> A low-end recommendation? >> That's a great question. So, the recommendation >> cuz I don't like this judge. >> No. At all. So, they dropped all three
[1:02:32] of the espionage charges. I hadn't committed espionage. They dropped the uh the false statements charge. I didn't make any false statement. >> Right. So the IIPA, the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, the guideline was like was like just under five years. It was like four years and four months or something like that. And every national security reporter in America is in the courtroom on the day
[1:03:03] of my sentencing. So, my attorneys negotiated something called an 11C1C plea. An 11C1C plea is an agreement on time between the prosecution and the defense. The agreement is written in stone. So, the judge only has the choice of accepting the plea or rejecting the plea and you go to trial and start from scratch and the trial is going to go for another year then. >> Yeah. So she says, "I have been a judge since
[1:03:35] 1986, and this is the first time I have ever seen an 11C1C plea." She goes, "I don't like it. I don't like it one bit." She goes, "Mr. Kiryaku, if I could, I would give you 10 years." Well, the truth is she could. All she had to do was reject the plea. >> Yeah. >> But she was performing for the cameras. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So she says, "Uh, I hereby find you guilty and I sentence you to 30 months in prison, uh, 23 months to be served at
[1:04:07] the, you know, uh, Bureau of Prisons, whatever of their choice." So my lawyers say, >> "Your honor, we ask that you sent, uh, send Mr. Kiryaku recommend uh, minimum security work camp at Lorettto." >> And uh, she says, "Any objection?" And DOJ is like, "That we don't object." >> Yeah. So I have to report February 27th of 2013. I go up there. I go to the camp. I knock on the door.
[1:04:40] Tailed by a documentary film crew and four of my lawyers and my cousin and his son. And um they said, "Oh, you have to go across the street to the prison. They process you. They bring you back over here." So uh so I go over to the prison. I say, "I'm John Keryak. I'm here to turn myself in. They put me through the uh through the X-ray and then and then they start leading me around to the back of the actual prison. I said, "No, no, I'm supposed to be at the camp across the street." And the guy goes, "Ha, not
[1:05:12] according to my paperwork. You're not >> right." >> I was like, "Shit, don't do anything. Don't say anything. You'll end up in solitary." I didn't say a word. >> Yeah. Yeah. The judge can recommend whatever, but the Bureau of Prisons >> Yeah. They tell go [ __ ] yourself. >> Yeah. They're the ones running the Bureau of Prisons. >> And as it turned out, we learned through the Freedom of Information Act that the CIA was livid that they had agreed on this deal. They wanted me to die in there. >> They were livid. 23 months. It's It's like a joke. So,
[1:05:43] >> I bet it didn't feel like a joke, did you? >> It didn't. In fact, >> 23 months seems like a lifetime at that time to have to go into a prison that you feel like you don't deserve to be there. >> I was walking around the uh the basketball court. There was so much snow that they closed the yard. We could just walk around the basketball court. I was walking around with the number three in the Banano family. We lived across the hall from each other and we became good friends. And he said, "How much time do you have anyway?" I said, "23 months feels like 23 years." And he says, "Let me give you some advice. When somebody
[1:06:14] asks you how much time you have, you tell them five years. Because if somebody hears that you have a sentence that's so light, like 23 months, they're going to kick your ass. >> Yeah. They get upset. They get jealous. I mean, you really really see that in prison because people are, >> you know, they're serving these uh what Buck Rogers, you know, dates and and they're upset and they get it's it's childish, but you know, you're not dealing with the the best people. >> No. >> No. That was good advice. >> So, where what did you So, you didn't go to the camp. You went to what? Did you
[1:06:44] go to a low? >> I went to a low. Okay. It took me about 4 days to get to get access to a phone. And um and I called Mark McDougall, the the attorney that I liked. And I mean, I liked all of them, but I liked Mark the most. We connected the the best. And I said, Mark, I said, "Hey, they put me in the actual prison, like with the mafia dons and the files. What do I do?" And he goes, "Oh my god, well, we could we could file an appeal, but it'll be two years before we get a date. You'll be
[1:07:14] home by then." He said, "Buddy, I'm sorry. You're going to have to tough it out." And then I thought, "You know what? I'm trained for this. I've lived in way worse places than Lorettto, Pennsylvania, >> right? >> I'm going to run this place by the time I'm done." >> And so I just set out to be the biggest [ __ ] I could possibly be >> to what the Bureau of Prisons or just the inmates. I was going to say like >> the inmates, you know, I I wrote this book that won two literary awards. I wrote it in longhand in prison >> called Doing Time Like a Spy: How the
[1:07:45] CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. >> Nice. >> And I I won the PEN First Amendment award with with the Penn Faulner, the Pulitzer, and the Edgar Allen Poe. It's one of the big four, right? And I won the Forward uh forward reviews memoir of the year. So, I take these 20 life lessons that I taught that I learned at the CIA and I show how I applied them in prison. Well, some of them were like a joke. admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. And I'll give you an example. The whites didn't control any of the
[1:08:17] TVs. The Hispanics had half the TVs and the blacks had half the TV. So you watch whatever they >> Yeah. >> You know, Love and Hip Hop Atlanta. I'm going to read a book instead of watch that. But anyway, these two guys got into got into a a scrap over what to watch one one day. Well, I'm watching the Steelers game, right? So, these guys start duking it out. It's like a foot and a half away from me. Well, I'm busy. I'm watching the game. I don't I don't
[1:08:47] This fight isn't about me. Well, of course, you know, as soon as the fight breaks out, everybody just bolts and they run back to their cells. Well, I'm watching the game. >> Mhm. >> So, I'm just sitting there while these dudes are scrapping it out. Next thing I know, you know, the red light comes on and then kuryaku lieutenants office immediately. This is why everybody bolts, by the way, because the the the co sometimes the cos will come in and they'll grab anybody around there and they end up going to the shoe.
[1:09:18] >> Yeah. >> Too like I had nothing to do with it. Yeah, but you were there and we're throw you in the shoe. Keep you there for a week or two. You'll tell us what happened cuz you didn't I didn't do anything. I was there. These this guy punched so and so and I didn't do anything. I want to go back to myself. But that's why everybody immediately takes off. They don't gather around and Yeah. like in the in the movies. No, they >> make a circle around the guys fighting. That doesn't happen. It's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm done. I got to go back to myself." >> So, I'm just sitting there watching the game. So, I got on the lieutenant's office and they're like, "Why don't you
[1:09:48] tell us about the fight?" I go, "What fight? [laughter] The fight in Central One?" I go, "There was a fight? I don't know. I was watching the Steelers game." "Oh, you're going to be smart guy now." I go, I don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about. I didn't see any fight. We saw you on the cameras sitting there in the middle of the fight. >> Then what do you need to talk to me about? You saw it on the cameras. >> I said, "And your question is, what was
[1:10:19] the fight about?" I go, "What? You want me to do your job for you now, too, Kiryaku? You're this close to the shoe. Tell us about the fight." I go, "You know what? Maybe it was you that was fighting. Huh? Maybe it was you that was on the cameras. How the [ __ ] am I supposed to know? I didn't see anything on the cameras. Maybe you're the one that started up the fight. He goes, "GET THE [ __ ] OUT OF MY OFFICE." And I go, "Exactly, [ __ ] asshole." And I went back and they're like, "Oh my god, you survived."
[1:10:49] I said, "These guys are so stupid. They don't even know what to say back to you when you tell them that you can't believe what your lion eyes have seen." You know, there was another one I said in the book, always let others do your dirty work. Okay, simple. >> So, there was a serial killer in my uh in my pod. Uh we called him truck. He had been a long-distance truck driver. These are
[1:11:20] the days before DNA testing. He would drive all the way across the country in an 18-wheeler, pick up prostitutes at at uh roadside restaurants, [clears throat] >> what they call them, chicken heads. And yeah, pick up one and nobody misses her. >> No. And he would kill them. He'd strangle them and throw them out of the side of the truck. So he got 40 years. And um for whatever reason, I'll never understand why this guy constantly sought my approval. Hey uh John, uh uh the Steelers are on
[1:11:51] at 1:00. I saved you a seat. Thanks, Truck. Hey, John. I I know you listen to classic rock. There's a new There's a new station at 1600 a.m. Okay. Thanks, Truck. So, I'm sitting there one day. Well, there's this other guy that I didn't like at all. We had an empty bed in our in our uh cell and um he wanted to move in. Well, no pets, no rats. Okay. So, he says, "I want to move into your cell. I heard it's a good it's a
[1:12:22] good cell. I said, "What's your crime?" "Murder for hire." I said, "I don't think I like that very much more than being a rat." I said, "What are the circumstances?" He goes, "Uh, I have a gambling problem and I owed the mob $100,000 and I couldn't pay it. So, I took out a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitman to kill him and I got caught." And I go, "And then what?" Like, how are you not in a maximum? Well, I got I got 20. I said, 'How'd you
[1:12:53] get 20? Well, I said, 'You ratted out the hitman. >> Cooperated against the hitman, of course, >> which he did. And I said, nope, you can't move in here. No, no rats. >> So, I'm sitting watching the Steelers with truck. >> Uhhuh. >> And this guy had this oddly elongated head, the murder for Harry guy. We called him Cat in the Hat because that's what his head looked like. So it was like a birth defect, right? There are a lot of [ __ ] up people in prisons, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:13:24] >> So [snorts] I'm sitting there with Truck watching the game and this guy Cat in the Hat, he's like 2 feet away from me. He's right here at the uh email terminal. He doesn't see that I'm sitting two feet behind him. And he says, "Hey, did you hear Kuryaku got called to the lieutenants office today?" He goes, "That guy's a [ __ ] rat. He went down there to rat." s out. The truth is that Jake Tapper had driven up from CNN to to the prison to interview me that day and I had to go down and sign the waiver to
[1:13:55] do the interview. >> Okay. >> So, I'm just sitting there and truck says, "Did you hear that guy? He just called you a rat." I saw my opportunity and I go, "An hour ago, I heard him call you and without saying a single word, truck got up and beat him almost to death. They had to land a helicopter in the yard to lifellight this [ __ ] to Pittsburgh to save his life." Truck got
[1:14:26] five more years added onto his sentence. So, I was done with him. >> Oh my god, that's horrible. >> Done with him. And then 6 weeks later, Cat in the Hat gets out of the hospital, comes back. Everybody had told him what I had done, >> right? >> So, he comes up to me. He's got his head down. He goes, "I just wanted to say I'm sorry that I called you a rat and I'll never do it again." And I go, "Hey, look at me." I said, "If I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again,
[1:14:59] you're dead and you'll never see it coming." He's, "Oh, okay. I'm sorry." I became like legendary. And the mob guys are like, "Shit, you are a psychopath." I said, "No, that's the issue. You're a psychopath. That's why I get you guys to do my dirty work for me. >> [laughter] >> So, you wrote the book, this book in prison. You have all the rules. >> Yep.
[1:15:30] >> Did you you didn't publish it in prison? >> No. >> Okay. >> I had a little bit of a problem cuz the the cops would shake me down and if I had, you know, pages written, they would tear them up. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, what I ended up doing was um every day I would write, and again, it's longhand. It's freaking hard to write 120,000 words in longhand, right? >> Yeah. >> So, every day I'd write and then I would put in an envelope. I would mark it legal mail and I'd send it to my lawyers.
[1:16:00] >> Okay. >> And they just held them for me. And so, when I got out, I hired some college student just to type the whole thing. And um then I started the edit. Now, there were there were whole chapters that I wrote twice just because I forgot I had written it, right? It took me a year and a half to write it longhand. I started off with a story. There was this guy. There was this freaking Italian Ponzi scheme guy, degenerate
[1:16:31] gambler, not connected. So he's like he owes every bookie in the prison money and he's borrowing from this guy to pay that guy just so he doesn't get his legs broken and the whole thing is going to collapse. But at the same time, he had been in People magazine a couple times because he was dating an A-list Oscar-winning star. She broke up with him when he was arrested for this Ponzi scheme. And he's always talking about his yacht in the Mediterranean and his villa in uh
[1:17:02] outside of Rome and everybody's going to be invited to the villa and we're going to take a cruise around here. Oh, can I borrow 10 bucks? Can I have a couple of Macs? So I said to one of the Italians, the one who became my my best friend and is still like a brother to me. I said, "I'm going to [ __ ] this guy up." >> I said, "I cannot listen to these stories anymore." >> You're a real tough guy in the low. [laughter] >> In a low. Yeah. >> In the low. Right. >> Cuz I knew I could get away with it. [clears throat] >> So
[1:17:34] he goes, "Are you crazy?" He goes, "They're going to send you this shoe for months and then they're going to put you in a medium and then what are you going to do?" I said, "I would be I would never be so crude as to physically [ __ ] him up, >> right? >> I'm smarter than that. >> Give me some credit." >> So, one of the guys in my cell, he was a Mexican guy. He worked on the laundry. And I said, "Jose, can you get me a can you get me a laundry bag?" And he said, "Sure." And I gave him a a Mac and he gave me a he stole the laundry bag. Gave me the laundry bag. And then there was
[1:18:05] another guy, Jorge. I said, "Jorge, um, are you going home soon?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, I got my merrygoround." You remember the merrygoround? >> Yeah. Yeah. You get everybody to sign off just before you leave. >> Yeah. It's not for any reason other than to keep you occupied that last day so you don't settle scores. So, I said, "Can I can I borrow your uh your merrygoround?" So, he gives it to me. I make a photo copy. I white out his name and his number and I type in the Italian guy's name and number and I wait till five
[1:18:37] o'clock on Friday afternoon. I put the laundry bag and the merrygoround on his bed. So he comes in, he goes, "Hey guys, we're like, "Hey man, how you doing?" "Good. How are you?" "Yeah, we're good." He goes over to his bed. He goes [gasps] I go, "What?" He goes, "I'm going home." I said, "What are you talking about?" He says, "This [laughter] the merrygoround. I won my appeal." [laughter] I go, "What? Nobody wins their appeal."
[1:19:09] He holds up the laundry bag in the merrygoround. He says, "I won. I'm going home. I have to call my lawyer." He runs to the phones. Well, even fancy New York lawyers go home by 5:00 on Friday afternoon. He goes to the unit manager. He's long gone. The counselor left at like 2:00 and had somebody else clock him out. So there's nobody around. So my Italian buddy says, "Hey, let us have a dinner for you. We got to have a dinner tomorrow night. Sunday night, Sunday night, even better. The night
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[1:21:12] That's what that's what happens is they give their their shoes. They give anything because they don't need any of this stuff. They don't need the radio. They don't need their >> nothing. I took nothing home with me. >> Sunday night, we had this big bash, big party. The Italians, the way they ate, it was just like in Good Fellas. It was I gained 35 pounds in in 23 months. >> Oh my god. [laughter] >> They were very, very good to me. >> Yeah. >> So, Monday morning, we all walk him down to R&D uh uh receiving and discharge.
[1:21:45] The rest of the story I got from the cop in R&D. So he goes in there and the cop says, "Who are you?" And he says, "His name." >> Did he go get everything signed off on? >> Oh yeah. >> Okay. >> He went to every office. >> So he's showing up. That actually that's like an escape. That looks like an escape. >> The cop says, "Turn around. You're under arrest." [laughter] >> I can see. You serious? >> For what? Attempted escape. >> Yeah, >> that's exactly what it was. It was an escape attempt. Well, he didn't know it. >> Yeah.
[1:22:16] >> He bursts into tears. They cough him. They take him to the shoe. And then they ended up sending him to Elkins >> and he just did the rest of his >> That's ingenious. >> So, one of the it was the the the actual boss of the Gambinos came up to me and he goes, >> "That was some sick shit." >> And I said, "I thought that guy would never shut his [ __ ] mouth." And the Gambino guy says, "I'm not saying you didn't do us a favor. I'm just saying
[1:22:47] that was some sick shit." You know what? Uh, you know, the sovereign citizens. >> Oh, boy. Do I? >> So, there was a sovereign citizen that I was locked up with that he had, and I don't even know how he did that. You know, they incorporate their name. They do the whole thing. somehow or another, he had filed something and he got a federal judge to say that the Bureau of Prisons did not have jurisdiction over and then he had his incorporated name. Now, what the federal judge probably thought he was saying was
[1:23:19] like over this corporation, right? >> And so, he gets this letter, but it's still his name. It's all in caps and you know, whatever. And he gets >> They're always big on the all caps. >> Yeah. There. So, he gets the piece of paper. This is on this is a federal, you know, this is a federal judge has written this this letter and so he's got this letter, packs up all of his bags. >> Oh my god. >> Go this was he was at the low. I I met him in the medium. He told us a story. He goes to the to the low. Right up to the gate. Not to R&D. >> He brings his stuff up to the gate, you
[1:23:49] know, the front. I don't know every prison, but they usually have a big gate. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which you're It's out of bounds. >> Yeah. You're not go Yeah. Exactly. There's a red line around it. He walks right up. >> Wow. And so, you know, like the lieutenant or the some somebody comes up and goes, "Hey, man. What are you doing?" He's got his stuff in in his in a couple of laundry bags. He's like, "I'm I need to be released. I you need to release me. This judge just declared that you don't have any jurisdiction over me. I'm ready to go." And you know, and they're they're delusional. Sure. >> And so he looks at me, he grabs the
[1:24:20] letter, he reads it, he goes, "Okay, okay." He holds that. He said, "Hold on." I think he calls whatever calls the warden or whoever, assistant warden, whoever's in that in in the low at the time. They come out, walk over, takes a paper and reads it. She goes, "hm, okay. Are you a sovereign citizen?" And he goes, "Yes, I am." She goes, "Okay, all right. Got it." Folds it up and says, "Handcuff him and cuffs him and brings him straight to the shoe where he spends six months in the shoe and then they move him to the medium." And he had to check in every hour. He would had to find a guard. So if you have escape
[1:24:51] charges >> Uhhuh. He had to go find a guard every hour and say, "Hey," and show him his ID. And then they would call him in to say, "Yeah, he's" So, he's >> This went on for the the whole two I was in the medium for three years. But uh for the the last year and a half, two years, he was every single hour he would check in and he got a charge, you know, and he even I was in there with so couple sovereign citizens that got charged with they had made a new law [snorts] >> where the because the sovereign citizens
[1:25:22] will they'll file like judgments and [ __ ] against judges and >> leans. Yeah. And they'll try to take your house. So you're like a judge and you've got this sovereign citizen who's locked up trying to [ __ ] put a lean against your house and foreclose on your house or something. >> Anyway, they do. So they they found there's a law they'd charge them. So they had a new law that they were so some of these sovereign citizens they'd scoop up, reindict them, bring them back to court, and they come back with three more years, you know, and they're like, I can't believe it. It's like, what are you doing? Like you're here on tax evasion. You had three years. You just
[1:25:54] got yourself. You were walking out the door in like a year. You just got another three years. >> But that's it. They can't control themselves, right? >> They really believe this crazy stuff. >> Yeah. You know, I used to always tell them too is uh I said, "Look, I I I No, you don't understand. Uh uh the IRS code was never ratified by the I I get it. [laughter] I get it. >> The the uh Ohio Indian Treaty of 1812." I'm like, "Please." >> Yeah. >> I I can't. >> And I used to always tell them, listen, let's say you are 100% right.
[1:26:25] These people have the manpower, the guns, and the prisons. And they say you're going to stay here, and you can spend the next five years of your sentence telling everybody how you shouldn't be in prison. >> But when you get out, you better pay your [ __ ] taxes, bro. That's right. >> Like, stop stop thinking it's kind of like like what your lawyer said, which I absolutely agree, is that it you're thinking this is about justice. >> It's not >> like and and whether it's drug whether you're whether it's espionage or you're a drug dealer, like I get it. Look, I love Law and Order.
[1:26:56] >> Sure. >> And I love I love when McCoy finds out. >> I love that show. >> McCoy finds out that they they sentence the wrong man and they call the judge and we're going to rush over there and we're going to get him out tonight and and they what they do. >> It's not real life. >> What they do is they go, "Huh? >> It it's not his DNA." And they go, "Well, he must have had a partner. It must be his partner's DNA. He's guilty." What are you talking about, bro? You just spent the whole trial saying it was his semen.
[1:27:26] >> You said there was nobody but him. You said it was his footprint, his semen, his fingerprints. There was only him. And now the seaman now the you got the DNA and it doesn't match. And now you're just saying, well, that was his partner. You just went to trial saying he didn't have a partner. Like it doesn't stop. It's about it's just about winning. It's just about winning. that mitigating damage yeah thing that he said that was that was one of the most important and impactful things that anybody has ever said to me in my life and I've repeated it he actually teaches now he's
[1:27:57] semi-retired he teaches at Georgetown Law School and I speak to his classes I tell that story >> when you were locked up were you did you have a a plan for getting out like were you thinking to yourself you know when I get out I'm going to, you know, write books for the like like what is your plan for the rest of your life? Like I you cuz >> well you know so many of us think that when we finish our sentences we can just
[1:28:27] step back into our lives again and that's just not true. It's not possible. You're not the same person. >> Did you know that though? Because a lot of Okay. Because a lot I knew it like I I knew because I >> you were more self-aware. >> I knew that I had a lot more time to think, right? Um, I knew that when you looked on the internet that it was devastating. >> Yeah. >> And so I I was aware like, you know, and I would talk to these uh the other conmen >> who were locked up and they were always they were always like cuz and I know you
[1:28:58] don't know you don't know my story, but like one of one of many many things I've done was one time I uh don't judge me. >> No, no judgment. >> One time I I stole a guy's identity >> and then I had his name legally changed. [laughter] because you know and I got I have drivers I had a driver's license, passport, everything in his name but I had it legally changed but so people knew like you know Cox had somebody's name changed so a guy a lot of the conmen would come to me and be like >> how do you do this? >> How did you have his name? How hard was it? I was like it's 1,500 bucks to a
[1:29:30] lawyer was nothing. It was a joke. I had like two people say that they'd known me as this person for two years. I said both of the people that signed those papers I said knew me for two months. M >> like I told him, "Oh, I'm changing my I had a a reasonable reason to change the guy's name. I was living as Michael Eert and I wanted to change my last name to Michael J. Johnson >> and and I happened to know had met a couple people I'd known him a month or two and they knew me as Michael Eert. I wasn't of course and I explained to them
[1:30:00] that I wanted to change my name because my the guy that raised me was named M was named Johnson. I don't even know this Eard. I don't know my real dad, but I want to change it." and uh it's important for him and my mom and was wondering you know would you mind signing this affidavit saying you've known me says you've known me for two years and and they're like yeah no problem they sign it and get it notorized whatever we give it to the lawyer I give him 1 1500 bucks and I think 20 days later he calls me up and says hey here's your paperwork you can go to the DMV get your name changed go so but I'd done that so these guys would
[1:30:31] come to me how hard is it and I and and they tell me you know because and then there's like 30 articles on me or this or that and you know they ran Ponzi scheme. They ran up pump and dump whatever. And and then it was then there's something called an No, not ancestry. It's called uh reputation like >> reputation.com. Yeah. >> Yeah. That will bury all the articles. Yes. >> And they were like I'm going to go to this and I'm that. And I used to always look at them and think you're >> like you you sound like you're working on your next indictment. >> Yeah. Seriously. >> Like you're just you know they're like yeah but I you know I I don't want this
[1:31:02] following me around. And and I was like the only person in prisons they were like what are you going to do? I'm like, I'm leaning into it. >> Oh, I wear mine on my sleeve. I've made a living from it. >> That's what I'm And that's exactly that was my thing. I was like, I'm going to lean into this and I'm going to figure out a way to make a living >> being me. And they were like, what does that mean? I was like like maybe, you know, and I didn't know I was going to give keynote speeches and I didn't really know about this. I knew, you know, I knew I wanted to write books cuz I'd written when you say writing out.
[1:31:34] >> Yeah, it's hard. >> Well, you know what I would do? I would write it out. I would type it into core links. >> Smart. >> Into the draft. >> Yeah. >> And I just And that way I could print it. We could edit it. >> Print it. Edit it. Print it. And now you could only do so many words. >> And then I would put like chapter 1 A cuz each chapter was like five, >> you know, you could only fill it up so much, so many characters. So I'd get like chapter 1 A B C D. And then I'd email it to someone who would take it and put it into Word. And then they'd mail it back and we could go over it again, make sure it was okay. And then and I'm building a book. And then
[1:32:04] >> Oh, that's smart. Yeah, expensive. >> Yeah, expensive. Um, right. >> But, uh, so I just remember thinking I was going to figure out some way to just not run from this the rest of my life. >> But even which made it harder on me, of course. >> Um, but I'm wonder that's what I'm wondering is like you you're you're not you're not stupid, you know. You you had to know like you just you didn't realize how that the deck is just stacked against. >> I did not realize it. I did not realize
[1:32:35] it. I just had convinced myself that enough people out there knew the truth of my of my case and my situation that I could step back into my life again. And from the outset, I was I was home a day and Vice News came to the house and we did this long interview and then BBC asked me to do an interview. I was on this BBC cross cross talk. It's like their version of 60 Minutes. And uh the guy's like, "Well, you you don't seem
[1:33:05] sorry at all for your crime. You're not contrite. You haven't said that that you regret doing it." I said, "No, >> I don't regret doing it. I would do it again tomorrow if I had the opportunity." I said, "If you're looking for me to apologize, that's just not going to happen." >> So, who is harmed? >> Exactly. >> What am I sorry for again? >> Yeah. So, um, I got a job at a at a think tank, the oldest liberal think tank in Washington,
[1:33:37] the Institute for Policy Studies, and they said, "Um, you're going to have to raise your own salary. We we don't have any money to pay you." So, I had this constant GoFundMe, and I'm barely making like 18 grand a year. I said, "There's got to be more than this." In the meantime, I got a call from the Sputnik news agency, the Russian news agency. Would you like to have your own radio show? I said, "No, I don't want to work for the Russians." Thank you, though. >> But I couldn't find a job. I got turned down by Uber. They were like, "We don't
[1:34:08] hire felons." I got turned down by the great the one that where you do grocery shopping for people. We don't hire felons. >> So, the Russians called me again like eight months later. We'd really like to offer you your own radio show. What year is this, by the way? >> This was 2017. >> Okay. >> So, I said, "Well, I'm I'm happy to come in for a conversation." >> I said, "What does it matter? It's your radio show. It's not like it's" >> and I said that to them. I said, "I want the freedom to say anything I want to
[1:34:40] criticize anybody I want, including Vladimir Putin." They said, "Done." [clears throat] I said, "Put that in the contract. Done." And they did. And so I had a radio show for seven years which led to my own TV show which led to a podcast which led to you know speaking engagements and one thing led to the other and it it's taken me a little while but now I'm you know famous. I'm still talking about about these human rights issues. My detractors are all either dead or retired or in a couple of
[1:35:10] cases under indictment. God bless Donald Trump for that. I can say that. And I came out on top. Yeah, I was I was say I mean you know so it took a few years but I mean everything takes two or three years. You know what I'm saying? Like it's >> uh what is it? I think it's the I actually like the Jeff Bezos where he says uh most over is I think it's Jeff Bezos most overnight successes take 10 years. >> Yeah. >> I said that yesterday. I said I'm an overnight success and only take it only took me 18 years to get there. >> So I wrote five books when I was locked
[1:35:42] up. >> You wrote five books like that? >> I had a Yeah. Well, I was 13 years. What do I got to do? >> Oh my god. >> And listen, I was ordering so many Freedom of Information Acts. >> Oh my god. I did the same thing. >> And they would come in. And so it was SIS would call me in. So SIS is calling me in saying, "You got a Freedom of Information Act from someone named from John Boziac. He's a inmate here." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I need that." And he's like, "But that's this is got his this is his legal paperwork and this is Yeah. >> everything on him. I'm >> freedom of information, >> right?" And I I'm writing a book on him.
[1:36:14] But once I got a couple guys in Rolling Stone magazine and I got a book deal, then they would just they would as they SIS would be walking by me and they'd go, "Hey Cox, come by SIS. We got a bunch of stuff for you." Cuz they kept sometimes they wouldn't get it. Sometimes they come right to me. Sometimes the mail room would find it and they give it to them. They go, "Hey, what is this a book?" And I go, "Yeah." They go, "What's the book about?" And I go, "Okay, so listen what happened?" And I tell them about this guy, boom, boom, boom, boom. They'd be like, "That sounds like a good story, bro." And they give me this. Oh, >> so it got
[1:36:44] >> Oh, that's that's very cool. >> Right. So, um but I wrote all these books while I was there and uh knew I wanted to do a podcast. So, I got out. I was in the half real quick. So, I was in the halfway house and a buddy of mine was like, you know, there's a guy that runs a podcast around where I live. And I was like, okay. And and I was working for him. He's a childhood friend. Hired me at the at the gym. He was owned. And he's like he's like, "You should go talk to him." He interviews this guy which was Ben Mala. Uh he's like he interviews him.
[1:37:15] He's a he's a real estate guy. He might want to talk to you. And I go I just got out of out of [ __ ] prison [laughter] for bank fraud, for real estate related bank fraud. He didn't want to talk to me. He's like, "Well, you said you want to start a podcast. Maybe you could talk to him." He goes, "I can get you his email." So he gets me the email. I sent him an email. He called me back in like 20 minutes. >> Wow. >> And I said, "Hey, what's up?" And I said, "Oh, I appreciate you calling." He said, "Bro, that was that may be very well be the best email I've ever read in my life." I go, "Really?" He goes, "I get a lot of emails." I said, "Why?" He said just the the opening and the opening was my name is Matthew Cox and I'm a con man. I was recently released
[1:37:46] from federal prison. No. And I I said I was I was I was in federal prison for um bank fraud and bank fraud related charges. I said I'm 100% guilty of them all. >> Oh my god. >> And then I said I was recently released. I'd love to talk to you about my story. So I and he was like bro that opening has no >> very powerful. >> It was great. So he called me and so he gets me to come on the program on the podcast. I kept putting it off because I didn't really know I didn't even understand how YouTube worked. I'm sure I I made the mistake of buying an
[1:38:17] Android. It keeps [ __ ] freezing up on me. Like I don't know how to work it, >> right? >> So >> but eventually I get out of the halfway house and he asked me to come on and I come on and I tell the story. Takes about two hours. >> Um and I remember after the story I was I'm you know I'm driving this piece of [ __ ] vehicle and I'm like listen man. I'm like, I I got I said, I don't even know if I'll make it across the bridge. You got to buy me lunch. I may be walking across the bridge. Like, I have no money and this vehicle is a piece of garbage. So, he we go to Waffle House and we're eating. He goes, "Listen." He
[1:38:47] said, "You want to start a podcast?" I'm like, "Right." He goes, "Listen." He said, "Um, I mean, I can't tell whether this story is going to be great." He said, "But the story you just told me is is amazing." He said, "And I think it's going to be big." He think it's going to do really well. He said, "You need to start a podcast now." >> And I was like, "How?" And I go, "I don't have any equipment. I don't have anything." He's like, "Oh, you got a phone?" I was like, "A phone?" And I had an iPhone by then. And he goes, he goes, "Yeah, it's got it's an iPhone. It's got a good camera." I'm not starting a [ __ ] podcast with an iPhone. Like, you know, and here's what always cracks
[1:39:19] me up. I'm living in a in a a rooming house and I'm telling the guy who's making a living doing what I want to do. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Like how [ __ ] arrogant [laughter] of a prick are you? >> Right. >> And [snorts] so I blow. So I always say he told me he said put put it up. Just start putting out videos on your [ __ ] channel that way because that way if this blows up you'll get a ton of subscribers and then you can buy better equipment. He gave me the I always say
[1:39:49] the best piece of advice that I 100% ignored >> and had I we would have two million [ __ ] subs right now. >> Yeah. >> If I had listened to him I didn't listen to him for another six months. I went on like five or six more podcasts. All of them, you know, his his that podcast, by the way, got like 2.3 million. The next one's 2 million. Next one 2.8 million. Next one's two. I mean, >> didn't have anywhere to go. I had a couple thousand subscribers on my on my YouTube account. Not one video. These
[1:40:22] guys don't even know if it's me. I don't even have a photo. It just says Matt Cox. >> Oh my god. >> And they're just subscribing. And And so Danny one day he saw it. He said, "The [ __ ] are you doing? What are you [ __ ] doing?" >> Yeah. >> You know, he's hit the sweet spot. >> He's Yeah. And look, and here's the thing about what I admire about Danny is that listen, he did it for no for for nothing for years. just because he loves it. >> He's quite good at it. >> No, he's good at it, too. You can be good. You can be amaz You can be amazingly talented at something and and
[1:40:53] still fail. >> Oh, yeah. Without a doubt, it happens every day, >> right? But I think that what I love about it is that he did it. He did it and he wasn't making money. He did it simply because he loved doing it. >> And that's pretty impressive. And and you know, that's inspiring that that that paid off. >> He was the first big podcast that I went on. I'm gonna say it was 2019, just before COVID started. >> And I've been on, I don't know, four or five times, I guess, over the years.
[1:41:25] >> Um, but then that led to Julian Dory and then to Tucker Carlson and Patrick B. David and Sean Ryan and Rogan finally last year and then Diary of a CEO which really broke me out. So one led to the other to the other to the other and it's all worked out. >> It's funny you know Bamonte. So uh uh Bamante he I had written a book and you know I needed to kind of fluff
[1:41:56] it up right. So I I I knew a guy that said he knew some CI former CIA guys and I said, "Do you know one that would talk to me?" He was like, "Oh, that guy got this one guy. He just started a podcast, which was, you know, his Oh, okay. So I said, "Yeah, I I'd love to talk to him." I said, "Could I send you some questions that you can read, some paragraphs or pages you could read and then you could comment on them?" Sure. Yeah, sure. So I sent him to him. It was a book about a guy that was locked up. Uh but he it's it's kind of an international thing, and it's it's all true. These are true stories. True true crime. So he does he
[1:42:27] wrote the whole thing and we talked on the phone several times. We emailed a bunch and then I was like hey look you know I know a guy who owns a podcast and busy lived close and I said I I could probably get you on the podcast. He's oh my god that would be great. That would be so wow thank you so much that would be amazing. He's like I just started my podcast like it's not doing you know he's like it's doing okay you know and he's like yeah I would love that. I really need some exposure. He hadn't been on anything. >> Wow. >> And so I called Danny. I said Danny I got this guy he's former CIA. He he just helped me with this book and and you
[1:42:58] know he let me interview him and I didn't interview a few people and and he was he was like okay yeah yeah no I said right down the street here's his number oh yeah yeah I said you should have him on you know okay [ __ ] two weeks later Bante texted me and says hey man your guy never called me and I was like really okay I called Danny Danny he was like okay who was who is it again the guy named his name's Andrew Bamonte and he's right down the street from you okay two weeks later Andrew goes same same thing >> same thing hey man I haven't heard from this guy I call him Danny up. Same thing. He's like, "Okay, do you even know that this guy was in the CIA?" I said, "Look, he was in the [ __ ] CIA.
[1:43:29] Who's going to [ __ ] lie about that? Come on. He's in the CIA. >> Be surprised." >> Yeah. I probably I would probably would be, but and he goes, "Okay, okay." And he says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And then like a week later, two weeks later, Danny said, "Listen, man." He said, "I had two guests fall off. I have nothing. I need you to come and do a podcast. Can you come tomorrow and do a podcast?" And I go, "What about Boomont?" He goes, "Who?" >> I go, "Motherfucker." I said, "He's he's he's [ __ ] 15 minutes from you. What are you?" I know he's probably an hour, but I like what are you? He's like,
[1:43:59] "Who?" Oh, I go, "Fuck at least call the [ __ ] guy." Oh, I'll call him. So, he calls him. >> Booonte goes on and I mean has blown up ever since then. Blown up. I mean, just >> on like three different TV shows. >> Oh, it's insane. And never says anything. >> I I mean, [laughter] >> he takes a lot of [ __ ] He and I debated each other. >> I know. I saw I thought that was great. >> I I I thoroughly enjoyed it. You know, Alan Dersowitz called me the next day. >> Oh, that's was funny. Yeah.
[1:44:30] >> And he said, "You gave that kid a master class in the Constitution." [laughter] >> I said, "I don't understand Bavate. He's like an apologist for the CIA." >> Yeah. You've never done anything wrong? >> No. Never. >> Never done anything wrong. >> Never. Never. Never. >> It's the part of And that's why it's funny because like Julian and and Danny said they they'll be like, "I think he's still I think it's a scop. I think it's a scop. I think he's out there. >> Stranger things have happened. >> Um, I'll tell you another story, too. Um, you know what? To be on the safe side,
[1:45:00] and maybe I I shouldn't >> You don't have another 30 months. >> I'll tell you a different one. Um, one of the not one of the first thing that CIA people ask each other when they meet up for the first time is what directorate were you in? >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Okay. There are four answers. D O DI DS&T DA Directorate of Operations, Director of Intelligence, Director of Science and Technology, Directorate of Administration. Okay, that's it. Four, four answers. >> Mhm.
[1:45:31] >> The inevitable second question is, what division were you in? And there are about three dozen. It could be Near East operations, Africa operations, counterterrorism, counter proliferation, whatever. So, I'm a regular on Fox News and Tucker Carlson I became Tucker Carlson and I became good friends well before COVID around 2015. I started going on his show regularly on Fox. I'm always always the only person there
[1:46:03] because most people are either in the New York studio or they're remote. So, I'm always the only one in the green room and then the only one in the studio. and he was doing the show from Washington. So I go in the green room one day and there's this guy there looks to be about 5 years older than I am. And I said, "Hello." He says, "Hey, how are you?" I sit down. He said, "You going to you're going to go on Tucker?" I said, "Yeah, I'm on at uh at 8:20." He said, "Oh, I'm on at 8:35." And he says, "What are you talking
[1:46:34] about?" And I said, "Oh, CIA stuff." And he said, "Oh, you're CIA." And I said, "Yeah, former CIA. You?" He goes, "Yeah, I'm former CIA 2." And I said, "What directorate were you in?" And he said, "I was in ops." Okay, that's not the way we would normally say it. You'd say, "I was in the deal." >> Right. >> But maybe he was a contractor. I thought maybe he was in just for a year and he just didn't pick up on the lingo. I'm like, "Okay, whatever." So I said, "What
[1:47:07] division were you in?" and he says, "I did black ops. I did wet work. I did all that shit." >> And they're like, "Nobody's going to say all that. This is not right." >> Not even in faking Hollywood would somebody say something so stupid and ill-informed. >> Black Ops and wet work and all that [ __ ] Okay. So, I go into the studio, we're on commercial, and I said, "Tucker, I got to tell you this guy that's in the green room that's coming on after me, I think he's a fake." And he said, "Oh [ __ ] are you kidding me?"
[1:47:38] He said, "Why?" I said, "He doesn't know the lingo." And when I ask him the most basic questions, he just doesn't know the answers. And he goes, "Okay, well, I'm committed. He's on in 15 minutes." >> Mhm. >> 6 months later, I see this guy on the front page of the Washington Post. He's been arrested and charged with mortgage fraud. So, he he bought a house in Annapolis, Maryland, which is very nice and very expensive. And they said, "Okay, you you're applying for this
[1:48:09] mortgage. We need six months of uh >> state >> of bank statements." He's like, "No can do deep cover, CIA, wet work, black ops, top secret." And they're like, "Oh, okay. We'll just give you the million dollars." >> Yeah. Come on. >> So, they give him the million dollars and he can't make any of the payments cuz he's never worked for the CIA or CIA adjacent or anything. He just made the whole thing up and so they have to foreclose on the house and then they
[1:48:40] grab him and charge him with mortgage fraud. Like how do people especially people in the Washington area fall for something like that? I when I left the agency I went to work for Deote and Touch. I was the deputy director of the competitive intelligence practice. Very boring but the same skills that that I learned at the agency. So we're spying on Ernston Young, KPMG, IBM, you know, stealing their pricing models and stuff like that. So
[1:49:11] because we're based in MLAN, Virginia, and the [clears throat] CIA's in MLAN, Virginia, we get like dozens, hundreds even of applicants who claim CIA employment. So, the managing partner called me one day and said, "You would do me a great favor if you would just take every one of these applicants who claim CIA background to dinner and vet them for me." >> I said, "Sure." So, the very first one, it's he's this young kid in his late 20s
[1:49:41] and I take him to dinner and I said, "So, what directorate were you in?" And he goes, "I was uh DI and DIO." And I said, "Wrong answer." And he goes, "Well," I said, "What director were you really in?" And he said, "Well, I'm an analyst. I I'm in the DI." I said, "Then why would you say you're in the DO?" "Well, I do some work for the DO." I said, "We all did work for the DO, but you can't say that you're in the DO." And I said, "What uh
[1:50:14] division were you in?" He said, "Um, CTC, I was running, uh, Middle Eastern operations." And I said, "Really? Now that's fascinating because I was in CTC and I was running Middle Eastern operations and I never heard of you." And he goes, "I'm not going to get this job, am I?" [laughter] And I said, "No, >> no, >> no. I don't even think we ordered." >> Yeah. This is an uncomfortable uh uh >> Yeah. uh dinner at this point.
[1:50:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. He just fell apart. But we would get people like this all the time. All the time, you know, the in the military had stolen Valor. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, it's the same thing, but so many people are undercover that it's that much harder to prove that they weren't in the agency. For me, it's always about the lingo. You either know it or you don't. And so, help me God, if anybody ever says to me, I I was in uh the company. >> Yeah. you're going to get a punch in the face because nobody nobody ever says the company under any circumstances.
[1:51:18] >> So, I have a a prison story that's sim similar. Colob's heard this, so you'll appreciate this. First of all, it bothers me that when when the CHOs come in >> Mhm. >> and and they're asked what they're there for. Yes. >> Obviously, they don't say, "I'm a CHO." >> No. >> What they say is, and this always say fraud. Like, for God's sakes, say why. Why do you have to pick my industry? >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, like come on. Like, >> exactly. >> And so, >> paperwork, please. >> Yeah. So, these guys would come in and
[1:51:49] you know, of course, initially they don't have paperwork, you know, they come in, so they're there, they get assigned a cube, >> right? >> Right. Did you have cubes in [clears throat] at the low? >> Yeah, we had cubes. >> Yeah. They weren't cells with doors and everything. Okay. Yeah. >> Well, it depended on which unit you were in. Um, mine was in Central One. It was the only one that was new. It wasn't original to the to the prison. So, so we had cubes, others had cells. >> Okay. >> Um, yeah. Like Coleman was all built at the same time. So, they were all c like the low >> See, ours was a Catholic monastery. >> Oh, really? >> And they just put heavy steel prison
[1:52:20] doors on. >> Gesh. So, >> uh, so guys would come in, they get their their assigned cube, and then if they, you know, if it's a white guy, which almost all the chos are white, I'm sorry to say that, but it's just true. >> It's true. Uh, and so the the white guy was named Kenny King. Kenny King would walk over to the guy and say, "What you uh Hey, hey, so what what are you here for?" And they and they of course the guy say, "Oh, I I'm here for fraud." And they he go, "Oh, okay. Okay." And then
[1:52:53] they go over to me and he go, "Cox Cox." And I go, "Yeah, what's up?" And and he go, "This guy says he's here for fraud. Go talk to him." And I go, "I don't want to go [ __ ] talk [laughter] to him. Vetra." >> Yeah. I'm like, "Come on, man. And I don't I'm sure he's here for fraud. He's a little soft white guy. I'm sure. No, go talk to him. He don't look right to me. He don't look right. He he he he he don't I go, [clears throat] "Fuck." >> Big Chomo glasses. >> Yeah, of course. The the Cho 2000s or [laughter] And so I walk over and I go, "Hey man, you're uh you're here." And this is one specific guy cuz it just always kills me. So Kenny walks with me.
[1:53:23] He's right up here with me. And he goes, "Hey." He said, "Uh" I said, "So I hear you're uh you're here for fraud." He's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm here for fraud." I went, "Oh, okay." I said, "Me too. I'm here for bank fraud." I said, "What kind of fraud are you here?" He goes, "Credit card fraud." And I went, "Credit fraud." I said, "Was that the charge? Credit card fraud." "Yeah, it was credit card fraud." >> And there's no such such thing as charge as credit fraud. >> It could be wire fraud. >> Yeah. Well, it could be wire fraud. It could be access device fraud. It could be it could be bank fraud. It could be, you know, it could be um financial institution fraud. There's lots of But there's no credit card fraud. >> So, I'm [clears throat] I'm like, "Oh, okay." And so already I'm thinking and
[1:53:54] like, "Well, what were you He's like, "Well, I was uh I was I was charging uh lots of people a small amounts on their credit cards and then I was I was getting paid that that's how I was making my money." And I went, "Well, I understand. Did you work for a financial institution? Like, how were you having did you have access to people's credit cards to to charge them? Like, I don't understand what how he's like, well, um did you work at a bank? Did you you know, and he and he he um well, he it's not a learning experience. I'm not going
[1:54:24] to go over the whole thing. And I went, >> "Oh, wrong answer." >> And I know I looked at my, "Oh, okay." I go, "He's a cho." And and Kenny goes, "Bingo. I [ __ ] knew it." And I turned around, I just walked off. And Kenny came up to me a little, he and a couple guys came up to me a little bit later and they go, "How did you know he was in show that fast?" I said, "Listen, your gut." >> I said, "First of all," I said, "There's no >> the charge is wrong." I said, which, "Okay, that's fine. I get it." I said, "Like, I'll tell people I'm here for what are you here for?" "Oh, mortgage fraud." I said, "It's it's really bank fraud. There's no mortgage fraud. It's bank fraud." I said, you know, it
[1:54:55] whatever. I said, then when asked him was a charge, he said, no, that is the charge. I was like, okay, that's not true. I said, but then the second thing when I asked him what he was doing, he didn't know the lingo. >> I said, and thirdly, I said, he shut it down right away. I said, Kenny, I said, I've never met a fraudster >> that didn't want to talk about it, >> didn't want to brag. >> Yeah. >> I said, I don't know if you know, and Kenny, he we've been locked up for four or five years at this point. I said, "Kenny, I don't know if you ever noticed this, but if you asked me to describe what I did, I said, 'You will never see. You can't shut me up." I said, 'I get excited about it. It's thrilling to me.
[1:55:26] I love it. I get energized. I don't get energized about anything else. I said, "But that I it's in my bones. I love it." I said, "It's the narcissism of being a fraud, so that you have to brag." I said, which is also how most of these guys get caught. I said, he shut it down. He didn't want to talk about it. I said, "Come on, man. This guy's a chill. He's a chill." And listen, I mean I there's a bunch of other ones where he'd be like, you know, same same thing over but it's the same thing like you what is a fisherman knows a fisherman, right? >> Exactly. Right. So I'm doing a whole bunch of stuff right now. I'm I've got
[1:55:56] I've got three podcasts. One to the >> to my great surprise. It's on Apple podcast. It's called John Kuryaku's Deadrop. We're actually number 98 in the world. Um like among two million uh podcasts and it's just me telling stories. Um, I've got one every day on YouTube and Rumble called uh, Drogram. It's just about the news of the day. And then I have another one on YouTube called uh, Deep Focus, where it's more in-depth interviews with people like
[1:56:26] professors and attorneys and activists and, you know, experts on different issues. Uh, I I've got a website, John Kuryaku.com. And if you want something more fun, I'm on Cameo, John Kuryaku. Can barely keep up with it. I got my uh eighth book coming out in a couple of weeks, my ninth book by the end of the year. I decided to do something completely different, but everything's available on uh on Amazon. My first seven books were about the CIA. And I decided to do one called uh Remains of the Day, a
[1:56:59] definitive guide to Washington DC's Historic Cemeteries. And the publisher liked it so much they commissioned four more. So I've got one called uh um well, I forget what it's called now. They I don't pick the titles. They pick the titles. But anyway, it is um it's a definitive guide to the mafia graves of New York City. And then I've got one coming out on Chicago, one on the country western graves of Nashville, and one on America's serial killers. Hey you guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos just
[1:57:29] like this. Also, we're going to leave all of John's links in the description box, so you can go there, click on them, follow him, and subscribe. Uh thank you very much uh for watching the show and if you know anybody would be interested please share it, subscribe. Thank you.