KIRIAKOU: The 'Lawfare' Against Me Was the Template to Destroy Trump

[00:00] a cult following in the podcast space. It is a cult following. I've seen more videos of you, short clips. >> Right. >> I mean, are you surprised? >> I'm very surprised. He uh sort of pulled me aside one day and said, "I think you would fit into the CIA's culture." 18 months later, I was in the CIA. >> It's a dangerous job if you're a covert operator. >> It is. >> It's pretty dangerous. >> When they saw that they could get me, I was helpless. I was nobody. I'm a

[00:30] nobody. I'm just a guy. >> Why did they want to get you then? >> That they they wanted to test out the policy and see if they could. >> How bad is this? What that weaponization, the conspiracy to get Trump over 11 years, real? >> Oh, yeah, it's real. >> All right, when you talk about the CIA, it's a great mystery. Um and we have covered the deep state a lot both on

[01:00] radio and television. I believe there is a deep state. I think there are unsavory actors. I think there are immoral actors. However, there are also great people that, because of the hard work they do every day, which is needed in a world that has a lot of evil in it, well, we need to have these three-letter agencies, but on top of that, they do need a moral component and they do need a legal component. And when I introduce my next guest, we're going to

[01:30] talk about very specific issues involving the CIA, what he was involved in, his background, his career, controversies he's been involved in, and probably have some difference of opinion on some issues. Um he's built You've built John Kiriakou is with us. You have built uh a cult following in the podcast space. It is a cult following. I've seen more videos of you, short clips. >> Right. >> I mean, are you surprised?

[02:00] >> I'm very surprised. >> Oh, pretty cool. >> I it's it's wonderful. It's it's quite literally been life-changing the last 8 weeks or so. I did a podcast interview with uh Steven Bartlett for uh Diary of a CEO. >> Yeah. >> And a 20-year-old sophomore at the University of Texas chopped that up into shorts, >> Yeah. >> gave me a funny voice, had lasers shooting out of my eyes, and the rest is history. >> But, you know, a lot of people um I'll talk to a lot of new people in my

[02:30] industry, and somebody says something bad about them on social media. I'm like, why First of all, why are you reading that [ __ ] Number one. Number two, it's not a real world. You got to understand there there are many outside paid outside influences and forces. You would know this as a CIA guy that countries influence and are trying to specifically influence young people um on a regular basis, and they spend millions of dollars doing it. True? >> Absolutely true. >> Yeah. So, it's not real. Why would people

[03:00] You can't >> know why anybody would pay any attention. I purposely don't look at Twitter. I find Twitter to be more hostile than the others. >> It's cancer. >> It is. It's awful. >> I'm not saying By the way, I think it's great that we have it. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I use it. >> I do, too. >> I communicate with people, but I don't read comments about me. No. Unless I want to feel suicidal, maybe I'll do it then. >> That's it. >> Um >> That's it. >> So, I you know, I probably prepared more for this interview than any other one that I've done a podcast, only cuz

[03:30] I didn't know the extent of all that you were involved in, and as I was doing a deep dive, I got more and more interested. And then I saw areas where we agree, areas we disagree, and I want to go I want to I want I want to cover all of it, and we're not in a rush, which is a great thing. Your background is great. You know, why don't you go through, for example, your early career pre-CIA, you know, you were on the uh Foreign Relations Committee. Uh you were a staff investigator, which was pretty impressive. You entered as an

[04:00] analyst in the CIA. Transitioned to an ops officer. Um there's a lot of interesting stuff about your back Bahrain, Pakistan. You were operational in theater post 9/11. >> I was the chief of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan post 9/11. >> I mean, that's pretty heavy duty. >> It was. >> Yeah. Um you also were part of a CIA team that tracked and captured Abu Zubaydah. Which I find very interesting, too. Why

[04:30] don't you tell us Tell us your background. >> Sure. I was recruited into the CIA by my graduate school advisor at George Washington University. He thought that I would fit into the CIA's culture. And um I was really only considering public service. And uh thinking of CIA, maybe foreign service, maybe Capitol Hill. He uh sort of pulled me aside one day and said, "I think you would fit into the CIA's culture." 18 months later, I

[05:00] was in the CIA. I was actually told on my very first day that I was being assigned to uh to cover Iraq in the office what was then called the Office of Leadership Analysis, specifically because nothing ever happened there. And I was told, "Learn the trade craft >> was this? >> 1989. >> Okay. There you go. >> Same cabinet since the 1968 revolution. >> Wow. >> So, I was told, "Learn the writing style, learn the trade craft, and then you can move on to something interesting

[05:30] like Romania." That's what they told me. >> That's pretty funny. >> just as I felt like I really knew what I was doing, Iraq invades Kuwait. And on the morning of August 2nd, 1990, I get to the office early, like 6:00 in the morning, and my boss says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to the Oval Office." I was 25 years old. I had never been to the Oval Office before. And so, you know, you try to be as serious as you can be. We go to the Oval Office. It's the president, the vice

[06:00] president, the national security advisor, the CIA director, and my boss and me. And then the president says, "Well, now what do we do?" And everybody turns and looks at me. And so, uh that kind of set the tone for the next several years. >> So, for people that have never been in the Oval Office, for me, the first time I went in there was George W. Bush was president. It's surreal. >> It's surreal. That's the word. >> actually was wondering if that's really the president in front of me. I Does that sound weird? >> No.

[06:30] >> Do you have the same experience? >> how I felt. It's I couldn't I remember thinking, "My friends would never believe me if I told them where I was right now." >> Yeah. It's so And then where did that take you? What was the next step? >> Well, you know, I hate to complain as soon as we've started, but it >> pitching and complaining. That's the story of a lot of people on this podcast. Go right ahead. >> It was clear to me that the Clinton administration was not serious about doing anything definitive on Iraq. And I thought, "If I have to do this for another 10 years,

[07:00] I'm going to go crazy." And so, um I started looking at the internal jobs board that the CIA had. And there was a position in operations, counterterrorism operations specifically. And uh it said that the successful candidate will have either Arabic or Greek. Well, as it turned out, I was the only person in the CIA who spoke both Arabic and Greek. >> languages do you speak? >> Just those two, along with English. >> Okay, that is a weird combination.

[07:30] >> It's a weird combination, but we spoke Greek at home growing up. And then the agency taught me Arabic >> In Pennsylvania? >> In Pennsylvania. >> Yeah. >> The agency taught me Arabic uh before I I went to the Middle East on my first uh couple of tours. And so, I went down to the Counterterrorism Center and I said, "Look, I don't have any operational experience at all. I've been an analyst the last 7 and 1/2 years, but I speak both Greek and Arabic." And the station chief, who was the hiring authority, said, uh "My God." He said, "Well, it's it's a lot easier and it's a

[08:00] lot cheaper to take a linguist and teach him operations than it is to take an operations officer and teach him how to languages." >> Yeah. All right, let me let me get to this part of your life. Um You pled You pled guilty to one count of passing classified information to the media. I've got I've got the whole thing here in terms of what the indictment claimed. And originally you were charged with the Espionage Act.

[08:30] >> Three counts. >> Okay. Right. And you were not You were not convicted of that. You did not plead guilty to that. >> No. No. No. I hadn't committed >> And but this is what This is what really stood out to me and I didn't understand cuz you actually are quoted as saying that you don't have a problem with somebody like yourself talking to the media and passing on secrets to the media. Um maybe that's the highest level of transparency I've ever heard. However,

[09:00] in this case the information you passed on was a covert agent of 20 years. Correct? >> Yeah, that's what I was convicted of. But that's not what I was talking about. >> But did you pass that information on? >> Uh to a to a to a >> you outed a covert operative. >> Well. >> Well? >> Not really. See, this was the thing. >> Okay. >> At the same time that I was being charged with confirming I confirmed the surname of a covert operative who was

[09:30] retired to an author who wanted to interview him for a book. The name was never made public. Within two months of me doing that, David Petraeus confirmed the names of 10 covert operatives to his girlfriend. >> his girlfriend? >> His girlfriend, right. And Leon Panetta, who was the CIA director at the time, outed the the six Navy SEALs who made up the team that killed Osama bin Laden. >> Mhm. >> Also, at the same time, there was a a

[10:00] disgruntled former CIA officer in Bethesda, Maryland, who outed seven more covert operatives on his website just because he hated the CIA. None of them were charged with a crime. And when I asked my attorney why, he said because they didn't blow the whistle on the torture program and embarrass the agency. >> Okay, but let me go back to this because when you work for a three-letter agency, and I want to get to the bottom of it. I think this is very important cuz you spent 23 months in jail.

[10:30] >> Yes. >> All right, and you pled guilty. >> Yes. >> Okay, so you're not really denying that you had a role. >> I I take responsibility for it. Yes. Yeah. >> But you knew you have to know the sensitivity, sources, methods, the danger when you have a covert operative who's undercover, has been undercover, my understanding, what I read was 20 years. >> his career. >> Even though somebody's only looking for validation or confirmation is what you're telling me.

[11:00] >> Yes. >> Okay, and then you you give him that confirmation in your position in the CIA, are you not risking the guy's life by doing that? >> I I don't think I risked his life. I was wrong. What I did was was wrong. It was a mistake. I I didn't have I didn't have criminal intent, and I can explain it to you. Uh there was a a journalist, uh Matthew Cole, who was writing a book on something called the Abu Omar rendition. Uh the CIA snatched a a a Muslim cleric

[11:30] from Milan and rendered him to Egypt. And um he sent me an email saying, "Can you introduce me to any of these 12 people?" I said, "I have no idea who these people are." He sent me a second email, "How about these 12 people?" I said, "Look, I kidnapping wasn't my thing at the CIA. I said, "I don't know any of these people. You clearly know this issue better than I do." And he said, "What about the guy that you referred to on page 100 and whatever of your first book?" And I said, and this was the crime. I said, "Oh, you're

[12:00] talking about" He said, "I think his name is John." I said, "I think you're talking about John Doe." I said, "I don't know whatever happened to him. He's probably retired and living in in Virginia somewhere." That was the crime. >> So, you did not know he was still a covert operative. >> No. No idea. I hadn't seen him in >> Is that why they played out with you? >> No. They played out with me because they were insistent insistent that I take a plea to an espionage charge. I had not committed espionage. And they kept

[12:30] dangling 45 years in front of me. And finally, I said, "You know what? I'm going to go to trial and I'm going to testify on my my own behalf. And I might accidentally refer to some of the hideous war crimes and crimes against humanity that I witnessed in 15 years in the CIA." And then they said, "Okay, okay. 30 months, you do 23." I said, "I'm not pleading to espionage. I did not commit espionage." >> So, you think you used leverage that you

[13:00] would quote out the CIA or reveal secrets that they wouldn't want you to reveal. You believe them to be true. They would probably dispute dispute them or maybe you have proof of it all. >> Oh, yeah. There's there's a lot of proof out there. What my attorney >> out there or is it buried? >> Oh, now they've been they've done a good job of burying it. Yes, you're right. But my my attorneys said something early on in the case that motivated me. And it was that there is a law in this country

[13:30] that makes it illegal to classify a crime. You cannot classify an act that is criminal for the purpose of keeping the information from the American public. And the torture program was a crime. Enhanced interrogation was a crime. It doesn't matter what Jay Bybee said. >> different than the the operative, the covert operative. >> But that I I admitted that I I did. I did it inadvertently. I was willing to take the heat for it, but they wanted to

[14:00] put me in prison for 45 years. >> Right, but you you basically you pled out. Everyone understands what a plea deal is. All right, if you give us this information or you admit to this, then you're going to get a a shorter sentence. >> Yeah. >> In retrospect, I mean, I I applaud you cuz you're being really honest and you think, "Okay, I made a mistake. I own it." I do. I love when people say, "I own it." cuz nobody owns anything anymore. >> Oh, it's true, you know. No, but I I I did it. Like I say, the the guy that I was charged with outing, I love the guy. Terrific boss.

[14:30] >> friends with him? >> Uh we haven't spoken since then. Um but I've never exchanged a cross word with him. Terrific officer, great guy, terrific boss. I'm deeply apologetic for what I did. >> Did you tell him that? >> Oh, yeah. Told him that. >> Yeah. What did he say? >> He was pretty angry. >> He was mad. >> Yeah. >> So, it's a dangerous job if you're a covert operative. >> It is. >> It's pretty dangerous. Um even if you knew that he was out or thought that he was out, you're still putting him in danger cuz those people in that other

[15:00] country, wherever he's doing his his ops work >> Oh, no, he was retired by then. But But you're right about putting him in danger, and I'll explain that, too. And this was another thing that I didn't know. I I confirmed this name to Matthew Cole, who at the time was working for ABC News. He was fired from ABC News because of all this. Well, he claimed to have been writing this book on Abu Omar and he sent me a copy of the cover. He wants to interview all these people. There was no Abu Omar book. It was all a lie. In

[15:30] fact, he was secretly working for the Guantanamo defense attorneys as an investigator. >> So he was trying to use you. He never he under the premise of writing a book. >> Correct. >> He lured you in. >> Mhm. And then he took that name. He gave it to Human Rights Watch. They gave it to the attorneys. The attorneys then wrote a classified motion asking a judge to order that this CIA officer sit for a deposition. The judge immediately recognized the name as being classified.

[16:00] >> Right. >> Turned it over to the FBI. The FBI asked the attorneys, where did you get the name? They said we got it from Human Rights Watch. Where did you get the name? From Matthew Cole. Where did you get the name? John Kiriakou gave it to me. >> Mhm. Um wasn't pleasant. >> No, it was awful. >> 23 years in prison uh 23 years 23 months in prison. Um but there's one thing you can talk a little bit about what that was like. And you but you did say something that caught my eye and that is that your training your CIA training

[16:30] was critical for your survival in a tough prison. >> Saved my life. >> Explain it. >> At sentencing my attorneys asked the judge to recommend that I go to a minimum security work camp. The prosecution had no objection. So she says, "Okay, minimum security work camp." The CIA was furious. So they asked DOJ to send me instead to a higher security prison. When I got to the prison I said, "No, no. I'm supposed to be across the street at the camp." And the

[17:00] guard said, "Not according to my paperwork you're not." I told myself, "Take it easy. There's nothing you can do. Don't say anything. You'll end up in solitary." It took me 4 days to get access to a phone and I called the the lawyers. I said, "Listen, they put me in the actual prison with the Mafia dons and the pedophiles and the the drug cartels and lots of murderers." But I I also had to work with the CIA for 15 years. Yeah, I did. >> So, how did that help you? That's an

[17:30] interesting story. >> I ended up writing a book about it called Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. I took these life lessons that the CIA taught me. Some of them were kind of tongue-in-cheek like like admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations. But others were serious like let others do your dirty work for example. Um form strategic alliances >> rapist and the murderer to do, you know, kitchen duty for you or do janitorial

[18:00] duty in the prison? >> Do we have time for a short example? >> Yeah, of course. >> There was a serial killer in my in my housing unit. We called Truck. He was a long-distance truck driver and he would pick up prostitutes at truck stops and and murder them and throw them out of the truck. This is >> Great place to live. >> Oh, it's great having these people just, you know, around you 24 hours a day. This was before DNA testing. So, he ended up strangling a woman who survived and she identified him. She got the license plate of the truck as he was driving away. So, he was doing 40 years.

[18:30] And for reasons that were never clear to me, he constantly sought my approval. He would say things like, "Oh, John, I saved you a seat in the TV room for the Steelers game this Sunday." And say, "Thanks, Truck." Um there was another man though who wanted to move into my my cell. But we had a rule in our cell, no pedophiles and no rats. So, I said, "You a pedophile?" He said, "No." I said,

[19:00] "What's your crime?" He said, "Murder for hire." I said, "I don't think I like that any better than pedophilia." I said, "What were the circumstances?" He said, "Oh, I I have a gambling problem. I owed the mob 100 grand. I took out a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitman to kill him. And I said, "And you ratted out the the shooter?" He said, "Well, they offered me 20 years." I said, "No rats, no pedophiles." Well, he didn't like that. One day, I'm sitting in the in the uh TV room with Truck watching

[19:30] the Steelers game and uh it just so happened that day that Jake Tapper had come up to the prison to interview me. And so I was called down to the lieutenant's office to sign a waiver. >> If you want to take shots at fake Jake, go right ahead. Feel free. Just take a fire away. I don't like Jake Tapper. Go ahead. >> So, I got called down to the lieutenant's office to sign the waiver. Normally, if you're called to the lieutenant's office, it's because you did something and you're going to solitary.

[20:00] So, I'm sitting there watching the Steelers game and this rat didn't see that I'm sitting a foot and a half away from him. And he says to the guy next to him, "Did you hear Kyriacou got called to the lieutenant's office?" He said, "That guy's a rat. He went down there to rat us out." Well, if you call somebody a rat, blood's going to be spilled. >> Yep. >> I didn't react in any way. And Truck said, "That guy just called you a rat." But I saw my opportunity and I said,

[20:30] "Half an hour ago, I heard him call you a pedophile." And without saying a word, Truck got up and beat him almost to death. They had to land a helicopter in the yard to life flight him to Pittsburgh. >> This is CIA ops. You made that accusation. >> was. I ran an op. >> Yeah. >> And so Truck got an extra 5 years and got sent to the maximum security penitentiary, got rid of him. And then the murder-for-hire guy, after 6 weeks in the hospital, came back. Somebody had

[21:00] told him what I did and he came back with his head down saying, "I'm sorry I called you a rat. I'll never do it again." And I said, "Listen, cuz I'm only going to say this once. If I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead." And he said, "I understand." >> You're not that intimidating. >> No, I'm a nice guy. No, no, no. >> No, and I'm not saying that negatively. >> No, I'm I'm agreeing with you. >> You don't look like the guy that's jacked up in the >> No. >> you know, in the the weight room at the

[21:30] prison outside, you know, lifting 500 lbs. >> number four, let others do your dirty work. >> Well. Uh that's an interesting that that's that's pretty fascinating. Here's the thing. So, in prison, you're right. If you're a rat, if you're a snitch, if you're a pedophile, you are prisoners there's code, they have their own standards. You don't want to be associated with them. >> That's right. >> But you're a CIA guy. They know why you're in there. Okay? >> And I thought that was going to be a

[22:00] terrible problem. >> I'm on paper I would think it would be, too. >> Well, there happened to be an Italian in prison. And when I I use air quotes, I I mean because their names Gambino, Lucchese, Bonanno, uh Genovese, they became my dearest, closest friends. >> Why? Why why did >> Because there was one guy who read in the New York Times, shout-out to Mark Lanzilotti, one of my dearest friends. He read in the New York Times 4 days before my arrival that I was going to

[22:30] that prison. And just because he went to every single Italian in the prison, and he said, "Listen, there's a CIA guy coming here. He's not an FBI agent." He said, "FBI are cops and rats. CIA protected us from the Muslims, and so we should welcome him." And when I arrived, scared to death, >> open arms. >> Open arms. I never had a moment's trouble. >> Not one. Not that fight.

[23:00] >> I gained >> Not one attack. >> Never. When word got around I was with the Italians and I was sitting with them in the cafeteria, it was hands off. I gained 35 lb in prison because the Italians had a crooked guard on the payroll who would bring in the pork loin and the wine for the Marsala sauce and the fresh vegetables and we ate like kings. My wife said to me one day, "What's happening to you?"

[23:30] >> This is straight out of Goodfellas, you know that? >> out of Goodfellas. >> Yeah. >> It was real life. They treated me like a king. >> Very entertaining. All right, let me let me move on cuz I've got a lot of ground to cover with you. We might disagree on this. Um I think we probably will. And if you go back and it's the issue of enhanced interrogation >> Mhm. >> and there were three people that were waterboarded. >> Mhm. >> Okay? And 39 people that got enhanced interrogation.

[24:00] You've spoken out against it and I want to hear why. There are 10 specific things that they do when it comes to enhanced interrogation. They'll slap you in the face, they'll get in your face, they'll grab you by and you know, get in your grill. Okay, the worst one that I read >> So, you're not against that? >> No. No. You know, a lot of people I think missed >> Well, why do people characterize you that way then? >> cuz they missed the nuance or they decided that it was it was

[24:30] expedient for them to ignore the nuance. >> Okay. >> I agree with you. A smack in the belly makes a cracking sound, leaves a hand print, it's a little embarrassing, not torture. >> Right. That's called pain day in my martial arts training. And I I get that. My sensei strong and it's like I have to stand up. First I get this like for calcification, you know, and it's hard and I I'm going to bring him on the pod one day. And then I have to stand there and I go like this and he's boom boom

[25:00] like really hits you. And he can throw this guy has been doing it for 45 years. He'll drop me on the fifth shot almost every time. But he wants me to take as much as I can take. Um so that's why you know everyone's become a big baby like Do you like hockey? Right over your shoulder it says Hannity. That's you know I love my Florida Panthers. Behind me right there Florida Panthers. I got over there Matthew Tkachuk's gold medal

[25:30] winning jersey that he signed to me which is cool. We're going to move it over here. And so I love hockey and then I have my Panthers built up there. >> I love it. I saw it when you first came in. >> But it's like people all fighting in sports is horrible. I'm like okay, grow up. >> My dad used to always say he would go to a fight and a hockey game broke out. >> Exactly. Did you not like hockey? >> Oh, he did. Pittsburgh Penguins for decades. >> Penguins had some good years. Mario Lemieux he was phenomenal. I used to love the

[26:00] Broad Street Bullies growing up. All right, but I digress. So you're not why do I read everywhere that you're against enhanced interrogation? You're not you're telling me. >> I was against very specific techniques that I believed were torture and I'll tell you why there's background to it. >> Okay. >> In 1946 we executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American POWs. That was a that was a death penalty offense. In January of >> Does that really bother you?

[26:30] >> See this is what I mean when I say it's complicated. What I mean is we're a nation of laws. And we should be a nation of laws. That's what sets us above. >> laws in war? >> There have to be. Yeah. There have to be. >> Really? >> Yeah. I I've always believed that. >> Like I think we should be above targeting civilian areas. >> Oh, sure. >> And we are. We are. We I think we and I think Israel does the same thing. If you

[27:00] look at all the targets in this Iran conflict, they're the ones that are targeting they're they're sending those ballistic missile cluster bombs into Tel Aviv densely populated areas. >> We don't do that. >> Right. >> We hit military targets. I like that we're like that. I'm like that we put a value on human >> should be like that. Yes. I agree with you. >> I am pro I don't want to kill people, but then I do you do you believe in evil? And then I'll let you finish. >> Oh, heavens, yes. I've seen it face-to-face. Oh, yeah. I told I was a beta the night we caught him. The well,

[27:30] the next night he was in a coma the night we caught him. But uh I said, "I should hate you. I should want to kill you." >> Remind people he was the one of the masterminds behind 9/11. >> We thought he was and it turned out that he wasn't. You know, this was this is one of the sort of forgotten stories of the the war on terror. When we were hunting Abu Zubaydah, we believed deeply that he was the number three in Al-Qaeda and that he was instrumental in the planning of the 9/11

[28:00] attacks. And so when we first got word that he was somewhere in Pakistan, we dropped everything to hunt him down and capture him. And it took us 6 weeks. >> And you were there? >> Oh, I was the leader of the of the squad. Yeah. We knew that he was either in Lahore or Faisalabad. He was constantly on the move and we would break down the door of some safe house or apartment. Some days we were a day or two late. Some days we missed him by 15

[28:30] minutes. The The cigarette was still lit on the table and and he had bugged out. So, he knew we were close. >> Yeah. >> But the thing is is we didn't realize until after we caught him that there were two Abu Zubaydahs. He had a first cousin that went by the same name. His actual name is Zayin al-Abidin Muhammad Hussein. >> So, you think we got the wrong one? >> No. I think that they were both bad guys that we didn't realize there were two, and so all the intelligence that was

[29:00] coming in made him look like a terrorist Superman. >> No. >> And in fact, he wasn't. >> All right, I tried Riverbend Ranch beef at Christmas. Their Angus steaks, they are incredible. Delicious, juicy, and their marbling of these steaks, for example, I got a new box right here. I'm so grateful. Uh I will be grilling this tonight. This is their ribeye. Now, there is a reason their steaks are so superior to other beef in the marketplace. For the past 35

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[31:30] >> And didn't you get him the finest medical care and save his life? >> Finest medical I told him this. Um 10:00 p.m. the night that we caught him. We caught him at 2:00 2:00 a.m. 2:20 a.m. Um I stood on this coffee table. We had 36 CIA and FBI uh officers. And we had about 50 Pakistani intelligence and police special forces called the Punjab Elite Force. They had a They wore t-shirts

[32:00] with a 9-mm very cool, very tough guys. The only ones who didn't wear bulletproof vest that night. They weren't afraid of anybody. And I said listen there's only one rule tonight don't shoot them. My orders are to take them alive. Don't shoot them. Well, when we started breaking down the door of the Abu Zubaydah house Abu Zubaydah, a Syrian bomber and Abu Zubaydah's bodyguard went to the roof of the house and began to jump to

[32:30] the roof of the neighboring house to escape. A Pakistani policeman standing on the street just started picking them off with an AK-47. Killed the bomber instantly. He was dead before he hit the ground. >> Was it Do you think that was done on purpose to shut him up? >> That is something I've struggled with all these years. We never told the Pakistanis who the target was. >> living Jason Bourne. >> I know, but I'm a normal guy. This is the thing that's that's >> think you're normal. I think you know, these are not normal experiences.

[33:00] >> They're not normal. They're very cool. Yeah, I'm going to interrupt myself for a second and say a CIA psychiatrist once told me that the CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies. They try not to hire sociopaths because sociopaths have no conscience. >> Right. >> But they blow right through the polygraph, so they're kind of hard to weed out. So I said, "Well, what's what's a sociopathic tendency?" And she said to me, "I'm going to give

[33:30] you something from your own personnel file. When I was interviewing for the job, >> Uh. >> there were four of us in this group interview. And the um the HR person said, "Let's say you are a CIA officer overseas, and headquarters sends you a cable, and they say we really, really need the new Indonesian economic numbers. >> All right. >> So you call the Indonesian economic officer at the embassy, and you invite him to lunch. And then you invite him to

[34:00] dinner. And then your wives become friends, and you go on vacation together, and you become best friends. But after 6 months, you realize he is not recruitable. But headquarters really needs that information. So what do you do?" And this guy raises his hand, and he said, "You just have to work harder and double down." And I was like, "What? That's a terrible >> No. >> You're going to give it up >> recruitable. They just said so. >> No. >> And then another guy says, "You ask for another 6 months, and you just keep doing You spend more money, take him to more places." And then this

[34:30] woman says, "Get the wives involved. Maybe you can do it through the wives." I raise my hand. I said, "You break into the Indonesian embassy and you steal it." And the guy says, "That's exactly what you do." A normal person wouldn't break into a foreign embassy and steal classified documents. >> know that I would. >> I would. >> I would, too. So, maybe we're you know we're two psychopaths here. I have no idea based upon that definition. Um I mean, all of this is what really is fascinating because

[35:00] I I mean, if I had to go back and and pick other careers in my life, I love what I'm doing. You know, just talking to you is a lot of fun for me. And hanging out with you and all the other people I get to interview and the experience I've had, I would I would never I I'd never give those up. However, if there's other things that I think would be really cool, >> Yeah. >> being a spy would be right up there. >> Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't approached you because of your your you know >> Oh, I think I have been approached. >> Ah, there you go. >> I'll give you an example.

[35:30] Um there have been a number of countries, especially since President Trump >> Mhm. >> was elected the second time. I mean, kings, queens, leaders, very wealthy countries, they have wanted Would you like to come over for a visit? Would you like to have I I was asked if I want to have tea. I haven't had tea in my entire life. I'm the wrong guy to pick for tea. Beer, maybe. Tea, no.

[36:00] >> There you go. >> Um and I immediately instinctively knew that there's no good coming out of that, and the answer was a flat out no. >> That's a soft approach. That's exactly what that was. >> That was a soft approach. To see if I'd be open. Now, why do I suspect, and tell me if I'm totally paranoid, that if I went and I said, "Let me I I'm I want to tell you about a business I'm involved in." >> Yeah. >> And I wanted them to invest. >> They would have thrown the money right at you. >> A lot of money. >> Mhm. >> Why? What would they want in exchange?

[36:30] >> There's got to be a quid pro quo. They know that you're friendly with the president. >> Yeah. >> And you would be their back channel. May I give you another example? >> I really want to hear it. >> When I was stationed in Bahrain, 1994 to 1996, uh I was the economic officer at the American Embassy. And um and we had a visit by uh David Rockefeller. He was well into his 90s. And Ambassador David Ransom, an absolutely wonderful, wonderful boss,

[37:00] great ambassador, said to me, "I want you to be his control officer. Take care of the schedule, drive him everywhere he needs to go. You're in charge of everything." I said, "Great." So, the emir, the leader of the country, wanted to have a big state dinner. Literally everybody was invited. The entire cabinet, the entire diplomatic uh corps. And the reason for David Rockefeller's visit was that the US-Bahrain Banking Society

[37:30] was giving him some award. So, they gave him the award, the big dinner, and then 3 days later he left. So, we're in what's called the country team meeting the next day. So, it's it's the ambassador, the deputy chief of mission, and all the the senior staff. We're meeting and I said, "You know, I don't understand why David Rockefeller, at his age, of his import, would fly halfway around the world to collect a meaningless trophy from a a banking society that nobody's

[38:00] ever heard of." And the ambassador says, "John, he says, >> You're supposed to be the smart one," he says. I said, "What am I missing?" He says, "He didn't come here for the silly award. This was his cover stop. He's the secret liaison to Saddam Hussein." And I said, "Oh my god, I'm so stupid. Of course he is." So, he stopped in Bahrain. It was in all the papers, and then he secretly took a military flight to Baghdad to tell

[38:30] Saddam, "Stop violating sanctions, or we're going to have to blast you again." >> Yeah. And so, there's a lot of co- >> And that's what you would have done. You would have been the back channel. >> Okay, let me give you how persistent they were. After I said flat out no a couple once or twice or three times in some cases, and they went to my fiance. >> Oh my goodness, they were serious. >> Okay, so >> That was serious. >> All right. So, I I want no part of it. And here's the other part. I went with

[39:00] the president. I flew on Air Force One uh when he went on his Gulf State trip, and I went to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and we went to however you prefer to pronounce it, Cutter, Qatar. >> Yep. >> And we went to the United Arab Emirates. By the way, would you want to live in any one of those three places? >> I think they're shitholes. I hate them. I would not want to live in a desert. No, thank you. Not interested. >> it actually gets depressing. When I was living in in Bahrain, we went 9 months without a cloud in the sky. >> Seriously. >> It It's depressing after a while.

[39:30] >> Look, everyone can live I like my natural habitat. It's called ocean. All right? That's why I live in the free state of Florida. Everyone's entitled to their own preference. What? >> the summer, you can't go in the Gulf cuz it's too hot. >> Oh, it's hot It's Like I saw these neighborhoods that are built out in in in Riyadh, and it's like all of a sudden there's a whole neighborhood, and then it stops. There's a wall. >> Yeah. >> And the only thing you can see is is desert. >> For hundreds of miles. >> Hundreds. Hundreds. All right. But back back to the story. So, when we landed,

[40:00] um I had no idea I'd be invited to all the things I was invited to. It was pretty cool. I had a lot of access. And there was a huge business conference. There was all the the richest, wealthiest, top elected officials in Saudi Arabia in this room. And then what did I notice? Every Fortune 500 CEO that I knew, I don't know the ones I didn't know, was in that room. And that tells me, "Okay, we don't

[40:30] really care what their morals, their values, their mores is, nothing. >> No. >> It's all about "Will you invest in my company?" And I walked away with my eyes open. And here's my question to follow up on that. If they made this soft approach towards me, which instinctively I thought that was, never thought twice about it. I have a full-time legal counsel, ran it by him. He said, "No, I would not be going to tea. I would not be going to coffee. I'd not be going for a visit." That was our

[41:00] answer. >> And so my question is, I bet you I'm the exception. When it comes to >> definitely the exception. >> comes to massive amounts of money. And that then raises a question. Are there people, voices we hear regularly that are compromised that you know? >> Yeah, I know of a couple. I know of a couple. You know, we've got the this law called FARA, the the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

[41:30] >> right? >> Um it was only taken seriously in the last couple of years. >> It pulled this on Manafort. Manafort was not >> Poor Manafort. No. See, that's that's the abuse of FARA right there. >> Manafort's crime. Do you know Do you know the the story of Manafort? Did you ever read his book? >> I've not read his book. >> talk about a >> You He and I lived in the same neighborhood. I used to see him all the time. >> prison book. I mean, pretty much every day or every other day, they put him in isolation, which just

[42:00] was to break >> in the same prison at different times. >> At different time. And they they If you tell us this, "We'll let you out tomorrow. We'll We'll you out today." >> And he goes, I can't lie. Took a lot of integrity. Not you know, what would you give for your freedom? Um, that bothered me because that told me that we do have a deep state. It is corrupt. They are weaponizing justice. But I'm talking too much. But you know, so

[42:30] how bad is this? What that weaponization? The conspiracy to get Trump over 11 years real? >> Oh, yeah, it's real. This is actually my my sweet spot. And I speak from personal experience. Brett uh Tom Tillman, the uh former US attorney from Trump one. Former US attorney for Utah said the Kiriyaku case was the template, these were his words, was the template for the Democratic Party's policy of lawfare.

[43:00] When they saw that they could get me, I was helpless. I was nobody. I'm a nobody. I'm just a guy. >> Why did they want to get you then? >> That they they wanted to test out the policy and see if they could because then they went to General Flynn. And then after General Flynn, it was Manafort. And after Manafort, it was the president himself. And the next thing you know, you're drowning in millions of dollars of of legal debt. Your reputation is ruined.

[43:30] Getting back to your original question, of course there's a deep state and it's dangerous. You don't have to call it the deep state. You can call it the federal bureaucracy if you want. But there are people in places like the CIA, the FBI, NSA who are there for 25, 30, even 35 years and they know presidents come and go every four or eight years. And they can out wait this president. And if this president does something that they don't like, they know exactly how they can ruin him. You know, this nonsense for example, not just not just Russia gate

[44:00] as a as an operation. Let's talk about the the letter regarding the uh Hunter Biden laptop. I know every single one of the 51 signatories on that uh letter. Every single one of them was a Democrat. And not just a Democrat, but a Democratic activist. And that didn't used to be the case at the CIA. I remember working with a woman >> By the way, one one a addendum to that, not one of them ever saw the laptop.

[44:30] >> Oh, okay. >> ever examined the laptop. They didn't know anything about the laptop. >> was such mealy-mouthed CIA language that it bore all the hallmarks of a uh of a Russian uh disinformation operation. >> Blinken. >> Mhm. >> Sign this. That was in the lead-up to a debate with Trump. >> Outrageous. >> It is outrageous. >> So, it's real. >> What about >> people. >> Hillary Clinton's dirty disinformation

[45:00] Russian dossier? Used for not one, but four FISA applications. >> FISA. You know how easy it is to ruin a person's life with FISA? >> I mean, there's no >> Carter Page. >> Carter Page. I I've spoken to him a number of times about this. >> A very good guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we had this one one of our lawyers was the same same guy. Um but they ruined his life. They drove him into bankruptcy. Look at General Flynn. And and besides just the

[45:30] mean-spiritedness of what they did to General Flynn, that was entrapment if I've ever seen it. >> Entrapment. Did you see just got paid out all these years later? Remember Ray Donovan, "Where do I go to get my back?" >> I go to get my reputation back?" >> I know. >> Exactly. >> All right, let me go back cuz we can talk before I get into this, we're never going to stop. >> Well, may I interrupt you for 1 second? >> Please, go right ahead. >> After my arrest, we received 15,000 pages of classified discovery from the the Justice Department. What we found in those 15,000 pages was a memo from John Brennan. John and I always hated each

[46:00] other. >> I hate him, too. >> Going back to 1991. >> No, he There's rumors everywhere he's about to be indicted. >> God, we can only hope. He wrote a a memo to Eric Holder >> Mhm. >> saying, "Charge him with espionage." And Holder wrote back and said, "My people don't think he committed espionage." And then Brennan wrote back and said, "Charge him anyway and make him defend himself. It's classified. And when a reporter said, "If it's classified, aren't you violating the law by telling

[46:30] us that it exists?" And I said, "I dare them to indict me. I dare them to." >> I want I want Kash Patel to declassify that, and then I want you to sue them. >> We've approached him. >> Would you ever sue them? >> In a heartbeat. >> Because if you don't have the documents and you get a hold of the documents, there's no statute of limitations. >> No, none. Because it's an ongoing conspiracy. And I'll tell you another thing. I was working on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee at the time. And one of the things that I loved about that job was that you get to have lunch

[47:00] with foreign diplomats and just talk about the issues, you know, around the world. I got a call from the number three at the Japanese Embassy, and he invited me to lunch. His English was so terrible that we only spoke in Arabic. >> Right. >> And so we went to Charlie Parker's on Capitol Hill. I think it Charlie Palmer, Charlie Parker, I can't remember the name. >> I stay out of that [ __ ] >> Yeah, it's it's gone now. >> Meaning not the restaurant, the city. >> Oh, yeah, you're smart. Yeah. I I didn't learn my lesson. So we go and

[47:30] and at the end of the lunch, I still remember what we talked about. We talked about Israeli elections, Turkish elections, and the Arab-Israeli peace talks that were taking place at the time. And at the end of the lunch, he says to me, "So what's next for you?" And I said, "Well, I promised Senator Kerry that I'd give him two two years. It's been two and a half. I have five kids. I I to put my kids through college. I think I'm going to I'm going to resign soon and go into the private sector.

[48:00] And he says, "No, no, don't do that. If you give me information, I can give you money." I said, "The heck is wrong with you? How many times do you think I made that that pitch? Shame on you cold pitching me like that. I'm reporting this." I said, and I threw 25 bucks on the table and I walked out and I went without stopping to the Senate security officer and I said I was just pitched by a foreign intelligence officer. >> Wow. >> So, he told me to sit at this

[48:30] stand-alone computer not connected to the internet, write it up, and he's going to courier it to the FBI. So, I did that. He calls me later. He says, "Two FBI agents are going to come up and interview you tomorrow." I said, "Great." So, they come up and they said, "Here's what we want you to do. Call him back, invite him to lunch, and try to get him to tell you exactly what information he wants and how much he's willing to pay for it. And because I'm a patriot, I said, "You want me to wear a wire?" They said, "No, we're going to be at the next table." I said, "He doesn't speak

[49:00] English. He only speaks Arabic." They said, "We're going to record everything." I said, "Okay." They call me, I call him, I invite him to lunch, he says, "Yes." They call me the morning of the lunch and they say that something came up, but go ahead with the lunch and write them another memo. So, I did that. And then they asked me to do it a third time and a fourth time and a fifth time, which I did. In the fifth lunch, he says to me, "I have great news. I got promoted. I'm going to be the number two in the Japanese embassy in Cairo." I said,

[49:30] "Congratulations." I shook his hand, never saw him again. >> Wow. >> I get the 15,000 pages of classified discovery a year later. I've just been arrested. And it turns out there never was any Japanese diplomat. He was an FBI agent >> setting you up. >> setting me up for a real espionage charge. And so, we get this memo, we find this memo from him to Peter Strzok, who actually put the cuffs on me.

[50:00] >> Peter Strzok did? >> Mhm. And the memo said, "Recommend that we end this operation. He's clearly not going to take the the the bait." Well, of course I'm not, cuz I'm a patriot. So, I said to my lead attorney, Plato Cacheris, he was a legendary figure in Washington. I said, "Why would they do this?" And he said, "Because they have a [ __ ] case and they know it's [ __ ] and that's why we're going to trial." >> Let me go back to Brennan for a second. >> Mhm.

[50:30] >> If you remember, and and this is where I do respect a lot of people in your business, the CIA. I mean, they keep us safe. >> Yeah. >> They put their lives on the line. Covert operation. At any moment you get exposed, you're probably dead, depending where you might be around the world. It could be very dangerous. And so, at the end of the 2016 election, they they did an intelligence community assessment on whether or not Vladimir Putin had influenced that election.

[51:00] >> National Intelligence Assessment. >> These are career, professional, you know, top people uh making the assessment. They assessed absolutely not. There was no Russian interference. >> No. >> Okay. >> They spent $50,000, half of which came after the election. >> Okay, then Barack Obama doesn't like the assessment. >> Right. >> So, he meets with Brennan and Clapper and Joe Biden. I I don't remember who else at the time. And they said they demanded from your

[51:30] buddy, Clapper, another assessment. >> Yes. >> Now, one that really did set President Trump Trump up for a trap. >> 100%. >> That was the right there, the genesis of the Russia collusion hoax hoax. Based on cuz they didn't like the real assessment. Real assessment said Putin didn't do it. >> That's right. >> Pretty amazing. >> That's exactly right. >> Let me >> I've said that I've said that publicly just what you just said. And um

[52:00] I had been approached by a Hollywood studio for a project. >> Do it. >> And then they dropped me. >> Why? >> Because I was on the wrong side on that Russia gate issue. I said but there was literally no evidence. >> How many years of my life I spent dealing with this and FISA and Hillary and and the dirty dossier and you know, Hunter Biden's laptop from hell and the persecution of Trump. You know, how how does a legal NDA put together by a lawyer

[52:30] somehow come up with a novel legal theory and 34 felony counts and everything else that they threw at this man. It's amazing. The intestinal fortitude this man has. >> Without any question. >> Everyone else would have cracked, crumbled. >> And it also goes to show you how the Democrats have consistently underestimated his resolve. >> It's a great point. I think he's doing a great job. All right, let me move on and I want to get into this enhanced interrogation. I want to make sure we're on the same page. I think we are. And you know, one of the things that you

[53:00] said, this is what you said, Trump can tweet all he wants that torture works. It doesn't work. It's been conclusively proven that it doesn't work. Besides that, whether or not it works is not even the issue. Okay, what I want to actually get to in regards to this and we talked about 39 people enhanced interrogation. Do you think waterboarding the three people we waterboarded including the guy you caught Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, do you think

[53:30] that was the right call? Do you think that's torture? >> That I think is torture. Yeah. >> Even though we did it All right, so you know this guy What is his name? Rodriguez. Um >> Yeah, Jose Rodriguez. >> Let me tell you something. He's a great guy. Do you know how well do you know him? >> Very well. He was my direct supervisor in the counterterrorism center. >> Okay, so what was amazing about him is I interviewed him and he was at all of the waterboardings. They had doctors there. It was more to intimidate. You could

[54:00] never do more than I think the maximum was 40 seconds. However, most according to him were 10 seconds. >> Yeah. >> I interviewed him a few times. >> 17 seconds max. >> the living [ __ ] out of somebody and make them think they're going to die and give them a sensation that they're going to be drowning. By the way, we do that to our own Marines in training, right? >> See your training. >> So >> Although with Abu Zubaydah, his heart did stop and he had to be revived during one session. >> During one of during one of his sessions. Oh, okay. Well, then that

[54:30] probably went too long in that case. However, he was there. Here's the question I have and and I understand people that disagree with me and we'll let the the people at home that are watching decide for themselves. I'm asking you, John the father, of a young daughter. Two guys break into your house. They grab your daughter. Right? One of them grabs your daughter, races to the car. You race out after both of them. You

[55:00] tackle the second guy. The guy with your daughter gets away with your daughter. Is there anything you're not willing to do to that guy to get him to talk? >> No, of course not. >> So you support enhanced interrogation. >> Well, let me let me >> You support waterboarding. >> Let me let me put it this way. I I taught at Liberty University for a number of years. Great school. Absolutely awesome group of people there. I taught in the Helms School. And

[55:30] one of the one of the other professors sent me his final exam one day and said, "I want your your real thoughts on this. This is the final exam I'm I'm giving." It was so impactful. I still think about it. It was only four questions. The first question was, "There's a ticking time bomb scenario. You've caught the the bad guy. Do you use enhanced interrogation techniques on him? Yes, no, explain your answer." The next question, "He didn't tell you anything, but you

[56:00] have his wife. Do you put his wife through the enhanced interrogation? Yes, no, explain your answer." "Third question, turns out the wife is a true believer, but you have the kids in custody. Do you beat the kids in front of the parents to get them to talk? Yes, no, explain your answer." The final question was, "You've died and you're standing before the judgment seat of Christ and he tells you to explain your actions. What do you tell him?" And that just left me speechless. >> that is a great question. Probably the

[56:30] only school that would ask it is Liberty, right? Think about that. Um I knew Jerry Falwell Sr. really well and I knew Jr., but I I knew Falwell Sr. I actually spoke at commencement one year. It was the worst commencement speech in history. I was one of my worst moments ever. And uh but I got to tell you something. That is a special place. However, the answer to the I have my answer, but rather than me talking, what's your answer? >> I would probably kill the guy if somebody didn't

[57:00] stop me from killing him. Yeah, but that would be wrong. I mean >> You Are you one of these people that thinks killing is wrong all the time? >> No. >> I don't either. >> No, no. Not at all. Sometimes Listen, I I hate >> Evil is evil. >> Yeah, evil is evil and I hate to sound like that guy, but some people need killing. And you know, sometimes the world is better off without certain people in it. >> Totally agree. >> I hate to say it out loud, but that's just the way that's that's why I hate to say it out loud. Cuz you know, it makes me sound like like

[57:30] it makes me sound like I'm I'm out of control or or I don't believe in the rule of law or you know >> Okay, so if somebody kidnaps your daughter >> Yeah. >> in front of you and the guy that you caught knows where they took your daughter >> Mhm. >> I'm going to go very quickly. >> Well, I'll I'll give you I'll give you an answer. >> I'm going to break one finger. >> Yeah. >> And then I'm going to break >> the other one. >> the other one and then I'm going to keep going.

[58:00] >> Yeah. But look at it this way. I >> Pain is a great Well, so in that sense you don't think you don't think enhanced interrogation works. Or water But it I mean argue it probably would work. >> It made us feel better, but look at look at the case about this >> when the guy said, "All right, I'll tell you." >> Oh, no. He'll he'll he'll tell you eventually. >> Sure. >> But he's going to give you so much garbage that it's going to take your analyst 6 months to pour through it and by then the bomb went off. Look at it this way. >> We're talking about a trained terrorist that has been prepared for this.

[58:30] >> Yeah. Ali Soufan was the FBI agent that was interrogating Abu Zubaydah. Ali Soufan, it took him about 6 weeks, but Abu Zubaydah finally opened up to him and he gave Ali two critical pieces of intelligence. One was we had no This sounds crazy all these years later. We had no idea what the Al-Qaeda wiring diagram looked like. No idea. We knew Osama bin Laden was at the top, Ayman al-Zawahiri was the number two, and then we didn't have any

[59:00] idea how the rest of it was set up. So, he explained how it was compartmentalized and stovepiped, and Ali would ask him and I'm I'm making this up just because I don't want to say anything classified. What What would you do if you were told to carry out an operation in, say, Düsseldorf? And his answer was, "Well, there's this guy Muhammad and here's his phone number, and Muhammad has a cousin Abdullah, and Abdullah has weapons, and Abdullah's got a friend, Rashid, and Rashid has access

[59:30] to explosives. So, then we can call the Germans and say, "Listen, you have a problem in Düsseldorf, and here's the information." And they can break down the door and grab these guys. The other thing he gave us, have you ever heard of the Bojinka operation? >> No. >> Bojinka was an operation that took place that that was planned in uh Manila in 1996. Uh it was a a terrorist plot by a terrorist using the nom de guerre Mukhtar to hijack 14 747s

[1:00:00] in at Manila Airport and fly them into buildings all up and down the West Coast of the United States. So, the plans are literally laid out on a dining room table, and Mukhtar decides to go out and get lunch. And a cleaning lady comes in to clean the apartment, and she looks at the table and says, "This looks like a terrorist operation. I better call the cops." So, she calls the cops, and the cops come and say, "This looks like a

[1:00:30] terrorist operation. We better call the Philippine Intelligence Service." And then they come, but then by now Mukhtar has run. And they said, "This looks like a terrorist operation. We better call the CIA." So, the CIA comes. Okay, the the Bojinka plot has been disrupted. All we knew was that this guy's name was Mukhtar. So, Ali Soufan asks Abu Zubaydah, "Who is Mukhtar?" And Abu Zubaydah laughed at him and said,

[1:01:00] "You don't know who Mukhtar is?" And he said, "No." And he said, "His name is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed." We had never heard that name before. I I was in the in the office the day >> you're talking about KSM. >> Yeah. >> By the way, enhanced well, actually waterboarding, according to Rodriguez, it was KSM that gave us the tip to the courier that led to Bin Laden.

[1:01:30] >> He's been saying that from the beginning. And that's what >> He was there. >> That's what Mark Boal and Kathryn Bigelow ran with in Zero Dark Thirty. The people working for him say it was really great analysis that developed that information. You know, from the very beginning >> it wasn't the technique that got it out. So, it was an analysis of what he said. >> Yeah. It was an analysis. We went >> to give up something. There had to be some clue in there that would bring him to that conclusion. >> See, and that nugget which really was

[1:02:00] the crown jewel, the location of Osama Bin Laden, that would have made the entire enhanced interrogation program worthwhile if it were to be true. I don't think it's true. We went to Al Jazeera in the very beginning. >> a jerk. I really don't understand this. Um because what you're saying is he didn't say the exact words, but he gave them enough information to figure it out by through analysis. >> See, I don't even think that's the case. >> Well, then >> We knew about the courier system. We'd

[1:02:30] been working on the courier system since the '90s. >> But we didn't know about Bin Laden's courier. This guy told them who Bin Laden's courier was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, the name. >> Mhm. >> We had started at the opposite end. We started at Al Jazeera in the '90s. And we asked Al Jazeera, "Where'd you get the tape?" And they said, "We got it from this guy." So, we found that guy. "Where'd you get the tape?" "I got it from the other guy." "Where'd you get the tape?" We were able to go back four couriers, sometimes five, and then we

[1:03:00] would lose the trail. So, yeah, Jose says that the name came from KSM. >> No. >> His chief of operations says that that's not exactly true. All right, if it feels like everybody's sick right now, guess what? You are not imagining it. Now, doctors say this is the worst cold and flu season in 25 years and it's not even over. Now, I just went out to dinner with friends and it was like everyone

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[1:05:00] Again, save 45 bucks, promo code Hannity. urgentcarekit.com and you will be healthier and prepared. >> You You liked Jose Rodriguez. >> He did. >> Okay, you worked with >> single morning. Yeah. >> And he was angry when you got convicted. >> He was angry when >> When you were charged. When you went public. >> I was charged. >> He was glad you were charged. >> Yeah. >> Did he feel you betrayed the CIA? >> Yes. >> He did. So, you think he genuinely

[1:05:30] believed that you betrayed them? >> Yeah, I think he did. >> By and that you outed a covert agent. >> believe he betrayed the Constitution. >> By? >> By supporting the torture program. >> Okay, I don't like the word torture program. Are you talking about >> Enhanced interrogation techniques. >> Well, wait a minute. Which part of the 10 items in enhanced interrogation >> I've always maintained that there were three of those 10 techniques that were illegal. >> Which three? >> I believe waterboarding was illegal. >> Waterboarding's not part of the 10. What >> The waterboarding waterboarding

[1:06:00] >> Waterboarding was was The only three people were waterboarded. >> Yeah. >> And they're the three worst. >> And you had to get DCI approval to do the waterboarding. That's why only three were waterboarded. >> With the with under medical supervision, with a doctor being present, four limit with very strict rules. >> But I think that there were things that were far worse than waterboarding. See, there's there's this national focus on the waterboarding that I I never fully understood cuz there were others two others that were worse. One was the cold cell, for example. So, you're you're

[1:06:30] stripped naked. >> Yeah. >> You're chained to >> You got a free cold plunge. >> Yeah, but >> I'm kidding. I wouldn't want to live it. >> See, I'm not one of those New Year's Day, you know, icy jump into the river kind of guys in Pittsburgh. I I never understood why those why those old men did that. >> plunge is actually pretty cool because it it gets rid of all the inflammation if you work out a lot. >> Well, that's probably true. Yeah. >> Okay, so there's nothing what you're going to describe, nothing's comfortable. Getting slapped in the face

[1:07:00] >> we killed people with that technique. >> Well, this is where, you know, I I get conflicting reports on this. Do you know of specific cases, specific people that you know got killed that was never made public? >> Yeah, there there was one. I was the I was the uh the executive assistant to the deputy director of the CIA at the time. It's my last headquarters position. And the cable came in like, uh the guy in the cold cell didn't make it through the night.

[1:07:30] So, what they did is they just packed his body in ice cuz they didn't know what to do with it. Should we bury him there on the ground? It's like, well, not really. Should we return it to his family? That's not going to be cool. We cremated him. >> Mhm. >> And then just pretend he didn't exist. That was one. The other one was sleep deprivation. You know, Don Rumsfeld famously said that he had a stand-up desk in his office and he would work 24 hours a day without sitting down. And that he just didn't believe that

[1:08:00] sleep deprivation was was, you know, unusual or particularly >> with him on a C-130 to Iraq at one point. >> That that couldn't have been comfortable. >> No, I'm sitting like this, like However, in the middle of the C-130, you know those uh silver bullet >> Sure. >> He was in that. So, on the way back, I found a way to get in there and stay as long as I possibly could. I didn't get any sleep, but at least I hung out with him. But

[1:08:30] >> But anyway, he he he was talking about 24 hours, 36 hours without sleep. We've all done that. >> Of course. >> But we know from the American uh Psychological Association, the APA, that people begin to lose their minds at day seven. They begin to go into organ failure at day nine without sleep. The CIA was authorized to keep people awake for 12 days. That's that's torture. You can't do that. >> I I All right. So, I don't know about these particular case cuz you're not

[1:09:00] talking about cases that are public. >> Yeah, right. >> Right. Oh, so I'm I'm just sitting here listening to you, taking it all in. Do I doubt anything you're saying is true? Not really. Now >> a it was a different time. It was war. It was, you know, we were still in shock from 9/11. >> All the above. And I think we made a lot of mistakes. I mean, I think one of the things that Trump learned, I think he's following three history lessons as he executes the war with Iran. One, peace through

[1:09:30] strength, obviously. Two, I think he learned the lessons of the last 100 years, the last century, which was, you know, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, fascism, Mussolini, Tojo, Japan, Pol Pot, the killing fields. And the other lesson I think he learned was Iraq and Afghanistan. >> Right. >> And that is no boots on the ground unless absolutely needed. >> Yes. >> Quick and out. And no forever wars. People still think at this at the this taping that that this is going to be a forever war. It's going >> Not.

[1:10:00] >> It's going to end probably quickly. >> I Yeah, I I can't imagine this turns into one of the longer wars. >> It's It's the ball >> any sense. >> He won't let it. >> You know, if it were going to be, we already would have boots on the ground. >> I think Well, I think the only reason, right now, as we tape this, it's all in Iran's hands. >> Mhm. >> And they can do it the easy way or the hard way. >> Mhm. >> And the two things that they have to agree to, one, they have to give up the 60% enriched uranium. If they don't give it up, we will have to take it.

[1:10:30] >> And you know, that's funny to me that they're resistant because previous talks were about sending the United Arab Emirates, to Saudi Arabia, or to Turkey. >> I don't want them to have it, either. None of them. >> I know, right. >> To be very blunt, I want us to take it. I want I want to have it. And the other thing is, right now, as again, as we tape this, there's a naval blockade going on. If the pres- the president's now giving them a preview of coming attractions if they don't do a deal because that is

[1:11:00] their entire economy. You would know better than me. You lived in that region of the world. If they don't have oil, they don't have Kharg Island, they don't have an economy, they don't have a country. >> And and there was >> He could obliterate it in in probably under an hour. >> Oh, yeah. And there was an an even bigger development today, I think, and that is the president announced on uh either X or on Truth Social that he had come to some sort of a handshake deal with the Chinese and that the Chinese were not going to provide weapons

[1:11:30] >> President said >> If that's the truth, then it's pretty much over. >> I'm going with the president to China. So >> Ooh, good for you. >> This will be my only trip to China in my whole life. I don't think I'm going back. >> I I've been once and I didn't like it. >> You didn't like it? >> No. >> Did you you kind of you don't seem to be you didn't seem to dislike the Middle East. I didn't love it. >> the Middle East. >> And I loved Israel. >> Uh oh, Israel was transformative. >> For me, too, in a lot of ways. And I had the best Dory Gold, Ron Dermer two

[1:12:00] different times, you know, they're five the what are the five quarters in the Old City of Jerusalem. I took a helicopter up the coast from the Mediterranean all all the way into Jerusalem. Just really cool stuff. I mean, I've been pretty blessed to do cool [ __ ] >> recorded the bells from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to use as my my >> Did you feel anything? This is where Jesus we many believe Jesus was buried. >> Mhm. >> Did you feel anything? >> I felt, like I say, transformed.

[1:12:30] >> I didn't feel anything. >> Really? >> No. >> Wow. I almost >> If I watch The Chosen, I'll cry like a baby. >> gosh, The Chosen is great. It was It's a work of art. >> I was thinking I might end up hating you. I like you. I don't know why. That's a good promo. We'll use that. >> I was walking I walked into the Aedicule yeah, see the tomb. >> It's amazing it is cool. >> It's it's incredible. >> in, too. >> There was a Greek Orthodox priest there and they're all mean at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. And I say that as a

[1:13:00] practicing Greek Orthodox. As you're walking in he's saying, "No photo. No video. No photo. No video." And just as I walked in a woman said, "Excuse me, Father." And he turned and I pulled out my camera and I went click click click click click click click. >> Good for you. >> Yeah. Well, that's the CIA in you. It was my chance I thought. >> Yeah, probably was the one chance. You know, I want to I want to talk about one thing cuz we're talking about I know that there are people that and I don't know. I just I thought I thought I was going to get different answers from you and I think maybe

[1:13:30] because it is way more nuanced, but I think we have to start with one premise and being in the CIA you already acknowledged to me evil does exist. >> it does. >> Okay. I think the Iranian regime is evil and I read that you said you didn't think the president gave a good predicate for why he made this decision and I gently disagree or maybe you do agree with me, but I'm misreading all the [ __ ] that people people write [ __ ] about you all the time.

[1:14:00] >> time. It drives me crazy. Like I said people lie about a lot. >> A lot. Yeah. >> Okay. Fair enough. >> Laura Loomer, I'm looking at you. >> Oh boy. >> People I think choose to ignore the >> she like you? >> I don't know. I never met the woman and she just attacked me last week. She said I was a communist. On the cigar lounge 61 years old nobody has ever in my life called me a >> Go on Laura Loomer's show. Make peace. That's my advice. >> Okay. No, but I think people choose to ignore the nuance because it it just makes me easier to sort of put in a

[1:14:30] compartment. Um I will tell you that I was doing a double agent operation. >> Okay. >> Very sensitive double agent operation. Six months before the 9/11 attacks. And >> Can you talk about it? >> I got to be very careful. There was an attempt on my life as part of this operation. >> Mhm. >> And I've hated the Iranians ever since. I'm neither confirming nor denying that

[1:15:00] it was the Iranians that tried to kill me. >> Mhm. >> But I'm saying I have hatred for the Iranian regime ever since. With that said, I didn't think that there was a provocation sufficient to >> conflict. >> conflict. Yeah. >> Let me Let me see if I can convince you or at least maybe give you the the thinking that went into President Trump's >> Oh, I welcome it. >> You know, it really pisses me off. I've known President Trump for 30 years. I

[1:15:30] know him better than 99% of people that comment on him. They don't know him as well as I do. And I've been blessed to know and I He's a force of nature unlike any other human being I've ever met. >> Consistently underestimated. >> Very well said. And most people don't pick up on that. And here's what did it. And Steve Witcoff, I brought him back on my show twice cuz people didn't hear him the first time. When he was negotiating with him, the Iranians This is again, they didn't listen before. They had 50 days before

[1:16:00] Israel struck them. They had time before Midnight Hammer. Okay, so I'm giving you the context. And this was the negotiating period before Epic Fury. >> Right. >> Okay. Witcoff, Jared, meet with the Iranians. They claim they have an inalienable right to nuclear weapons. Number one, President Trump said how many times they can't have nuclear weapons. >> That's rule number one. That's his red line. >> That's That was his red line. Then he They were bragging they had the 460

[1:16:30] kg of 60% enriched uranium. In 12 days or less, that can be enriched to 90%. And then we learned in the conflict we didn't know, and this makes me mad cuz we always underestimate their ability, that their ballistic missile range was much further than we knew. They can hit Paris and London. >> Yeah, once they stripped down those missiles, they extended the range by something like 60%. >> Why can't everyone else explain it that that simply? So, here's my point.

[1:17:00] That was the That to me, reading the tea leaves, conversations with the president, you know, every He listens to everybody. I know people that didn't want him to do this, that sat in his office 2 days before trying to talk him out of it. >> Really? >> Yes. 100%. I know people in his inner circle that were begging him not to do it. And then here's the beauty of how he makes decisions. He listened to everybody,

[1:17:30] but what tipped the what what the final tipping point, the urgency for him, was what Steve Witcoff discovered. >> Wow. >> That was it. >> That actually makes perfect sense. >> Okay, is that an assuming that that 60% enriched uranium exists, do you, as using your intelligence background, is that an existential threat? >> Yeah, because even if they don't enrich

[1:18:00] the uranium beyond 60%, they could wreak havoc on the entire region by making a dirty bomb. >> Thank you. Why can't And that's what frustrates me. People say, "Oh, Bibi caused him to do this." [ __ ] "Israel caused" [ __ ] He saw it as a threat to the US. >> I got it. >> He's never abandoned America first, and that's like a narrative that's out there, chatter everywhere. It just It just hasn't.

[1:18:30] >> Right. >> Let me ask you this. Is the world better and safer that they can enrich uranium, and would it be will it be better and safer if we get the uranium? >> Oh, yeah. I think definitely yes. And if they need uranium for, you know, medical purposes or you know, whatever. Um they can enter enter into international agreements through the United Nations and >> We could have offered a sign a deal. Offered them low grade enriched uranium

[1:19:00] for free in in perpetuity. >> There it is. >> They said no. >> Well. Why? Then that's on them cuz they don't need it for medical reasons. >> But nobody paid attention to it. Nobody wanted to hear the truth. >> See, these little details that that Wouldn't it be wonderful if life were always so easy and so simple and clear-cut and black and white? And it's not. It's complicated. >> So, you know, the the harder thing is hearing people that somehow

[1:19:30] equate in war, you kill people, you break things in the hopes of stopping a greater evil. >> Mhm. >> Do you think if the Iranians ever had a nuclear weapon based on what you know about their fanaticism? >> Mhm. >> Put strap bombs on children. >> Mhm. >> Tell them to go kill innocent men, women, and children and that you're going to be rewarded in in heaven

[1:20:00] by Allah with 72 virgins. >> I can tell you from my own experience at the CIA that the Iranians under Ayatollah Khamenei were perfectly happy to go out and murder innocent Americans. This is something I argue with my friends about regularly. Listen, again, it would be great if life were so simple and that there were just good guys and

[1:20:30] bad guys. Um we want people to believe we There are a lot of Americans who want people to believe that any country in the world that the United States could carry out could carry out negotiations, legitimate, respectful negotiations with any country in the world. And sometimes that's just simply not true. I can tell you that God, I have to be careful.

[1:21:00] There's one incident in particular that sticks in my mind from my career where a number of utterly innocent American civilians were executed by Iranian agents just because they were Americans. Not for any other reason. So, yeah. >> Did you see a video of it? >> Oh, it was it it was

[1:21:30] It was more clear than that, even. >> Do you remember when ISIS beheaded all those people on the beach? >> Mhm. >> Remember the Wall Street Journal report? >> Sure. >> See, this is what frustrates me is I think we forgot the last century. >> Mhm. >> Is this Is this a horrible analogy? If we could if the world could have taken out Hitler >> Mhm. >> before he killed millions. >> That's right. >> Was it worth the risk?

[1:22:00] >> Mhm. >> Obviously, it's an obvious thing. >> Like you said, some people are evil. It's just a fact of life. Some people are evil. I worked for years on Saddam Hussein. To the point where I almost became He was evil. I became obsessed with Saddam Hussein. He actually was less evil than his sons. They were evil and crazy. >> Was it Uday and Qusay? >> Yeah. Mhm. mhm. >> Uday and Qusay. Um

[1:22:30] I had occasion to debrief um Hussein Kamel al-Majid, Saddam's son in law, when he defected to Jordan. And he was petrified of Uday and Qusay. Petrified. And sure enough, when he went back, as soon as he crossed the border, they shot him and killed him and his brother. >> What do you think the biggest challenges are? I mean, America doesn't have an appetite for long wars. >> No.

[1:23:00] >> I think it's hard to convince people of future threats and why, like for example, the ISIS caliphate. >> Yes. >> Convert or die. >> Mhm. >> You kind of dealt with that mentality for a lot of years. >> Yes. >> Can you explain to people how crazy it is? >> Oh, listen, the the easiest way to say it or to say it in a sentence is that they hate us more than they love life itself. They would rather die than engage with you in any way.

[1:23:30] There are some people, ISIS is probably the best example. And it's not just, you know, these guys that we've pretty well defeated in Syria. We're talking about about an emerging brand of ISIS in the Sahel in Africa. And ISIS-K, Khorasan, in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Emergent in the Philippines, in the southern islands of the Philippines. All they want to do is murder.

[1:24:00] It's as simple as that. You know, I hate to sound so black and white, but this is one of those situations where we have to kill them first before they kill us. >> No, that's not true. >> stay ahead of the the game. >> a large or a larger, I don't know, we have Shia, Sunni. >> Sure. >> Do you think especially in the Sunni world that there is a transformation away from radicalism. Like we think of 9/11 and we talk about Wahhabism, we talk about Saudi Arabia. Do you think

[1:24:30] it's a different country? >> The Yeah, it's it is transforming. I went to Saudi Arabia 2 years ago for the first time in 25 years. >> Wow. >> And it was like going to a different planet. I couldn't believe it. Women are driving, music blasting from people's cars, movie theaters. There were no such things when I was last in Saudi Arabia. It is transforming. And the Saudis after 9/11 came up with this program that a lot of countries mocked

[1:25:00] where they they tried to integrate former jihadis back into serve back into society through things like um art training or music training. And it was accompanied with, you know, psychological therapy and and they had success of about 60%. Now, if somebody went back to the fight, they went back to make jihad, they were

[1:25:30] going to lose their heads the next time they got caught. But about 60% of them really did walk away from radicalism and reenter society. >> I don't know if if that can happen with the current regime. The people that have benefited from oppressing all the people. >> Yes. >> Let me ask you, in your training you know, for a while I I studied like hypnosis. >> Mhm. >> And I read a book the the synthesis of

[1:26:00] Russian mind control techniques. >> Uh-huh. >> And and if you look at videos of like the Iranian population when the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in '79, 47 years ago, you know, and and how people just worshipped him. Or how they worship, you know, murdering thug dictators, evil people like Hitler. And you're like, "Well, what happens? How does that happen?" Massive crowds of people. How did that happen? Do you study that when you're becoming a CIA operative? >> In the Directorate of Intelligence, you

[1:26:30] do, as you're becoming an analyst. Yeah, especially in an office like the Office of Leadership Analysis, which I'm sorry to say no longer exists. There used to be something called the Political Psychology Division that was made up entirely of psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists, anthropologists studying exactly that kind of thing, >> Mhm. >> so that they could present analyses to whoever happened to be president saying, you know, we should be looking at this guy or at this country, and then working

[1:27:00] with the Directorate of Operations to carry out covert action campaigns, influence campaigns. >> Were you good at flipping people? >> Yeah, I was very good. >> You're very >> I had a sta- I had a station chief who paid me the greatest compliment one time. He said that he had been an operations officer for 25 years. And in 25 years, he recruited nine people. And he says, "You've been here 2 years, and you've recruited five." And I laughed, and I said,

[1:27:30] "And everyone a badass," I said. >> Mhm. >> And he said, "No, I'm I'm serious." He said, "You've got a knack for this kind of thing." I said, "Well, I >> What is the knack? Is it just being personable? >> I genuinely love being around people. I genuinely love sitting and having a conversation with somebody. I read prolifically. So, if you wanted to talk about hockey, I'd love to talk about hockey. >> Oh, it's true. Or football. >> Or or baseball, or whatever is on Broadway

[1:28:00] right now, or politics, or you name it. I can at least carry on something of a conversation about it. And you know, when I first got hired as an analyst, uh my very first boss I thought was insulting me at the time. And he said, "You know, you would be a good case officer." And I said, "Why? I'm not a good analyst? I'm offended." He said, "No, no. What I'm saying is people like to be around you. I think you could convince people to commit treason or espionage.

[1:28:30] >> And you did. >> And I did. >> And >> And I liked it. >> How does that happen? How do you I guess you approach it different ways. Some people are motivated by greed. >> Most are motivated by greed. >> Flattery? >> Most of the time, yes. Flattery. >> What else? >> Um revenge. They've been passed over for promotion. Their boss, you know, is insulting to them and disrespectful. Uh some do it for the excitement. They love spy movies. They watch the Bourne movies and James Bond and they just they

[1:29:00] love that adrenaline. Um And uh And some do it I mean, not not a lot, but some do it because they genuinely love the United States. >> Do you think there are people around our president right now that are operatives? >> Oh, I would doubt it. >> You would? >> I would doubt it because the risk would be too high. I mean, you look back at the 1940s and you you think of people like Alger Hiss, for example. That was

[1:29:30] that was ballsy operating. Um now the stakes are so high. I mean, you're talking about a death penalty case potentially. I think that it's easier to get the the information second-hand. And I think a lot of countries rely on the fact that Washington leaks like a sieve. The Russians used to have this thing called the mosaic concept where rather than go to the trouble of trying to

[1:30:00] recruit a spy to steal a secret, which can take years, they would rely on the fact that that American society was so open and so transparent. >> Mhm. >> They would read everything from the the papers to scholarly journals to, you know, whatever they could get their hands on and put pieces of a puzzle together one little tile at a time. So, then the end they had this mosaic and they could come up with what really was a classified program. >> No.

[1:30:30] >> I think that they still do that. >> So, earlier I had we were talking about the toxicity of of social media. >> Mhm. >> You want to feel bad about yourself, just read the comments after this this interview. Um I'll read the ones about me, they'll be worse. And but there are top geopolitical foes. I would off the top of my head say Russia, >> Mhm. >> China, Iran, some Middle Eastern countries >> Sure. >> that are purposely targeting young

[1:31:00] people. >> Mhm. >> I think one of the main targets are young people to alienate them against Israel. Am I wrong? >> Oh, no, I don't think you're wrong. I would say probably especially coming from the Russians and the Chinese because they would see that as a wedge issue, something to disrupt American society. >> Sure. What do you think about NATO in its current configuration, especially after they wouldn't stand with us as we we didn't even really ask for a lot of help in battling the number one state sponsor of terror? What kind of alliance

[1:31:30] is that when we pay two-thirds of the bill? >> Yeah, we do. >> We do. >> We do pay two-thirds of the of the bill. I think that they felt disrespected. Well, you know what? We shouldn't say NATO writ large because you've got NATO countries like like Greece, for example, that >> is >> is all in. Poland, Hungary. >> The Eastern Bloc countries. >> Eastern Bloc and Southern, yeah, Southern Europe, yeah. They're all in. The Greeks are very very close to the

[1:32:00] Israelis. Um as are the Cypriots, although the Cypriots aren't members of NATO, they are European Union members. But I think that that the Western European countries largely felt, well, Ireland, Spain, and Italy aside, that's a different situation. >> Oh, Spain was a awful, Ireland was awful, and Great Well, frankly, Great Britain was awful, and from the French were awful. >> But this is what I'm getting at. I think they felt disrespected. I think that they felt like they weren't consulted. And that if they had been consulted, if they'd been asked,

[1:32:30] >> Donald Trump is not supposed to you know >> I know it's not his it's not his nature. >> for permission. >> Never happen. >> I think Europe and and I want to get your thoughts on this, is in a steep decline. >> Mhm. >> I think unfettered illegal immigration without assimilation, I never thought we'd see 100 Sharia courts in Great Britain. I never thought no-go zones in France and other parts of Europe would be real. Um add to that the embrace of radical

[1:33:00] socialism, >> Mhm. >> climate alarmism, >> Mhm. >> Um and then their neglect of national security and defense. And it's not just they don't pay their fair share to NATO, it's just they don't they don't build out the next generation of weaponry. They've been relying on us. >> I have to agree, and I'm going to I'm going to because I know Greece better than pretty much any other country, I'm going to bring up Greece as an example again. Um you know, Turkey takes something like a billion and a half euros every year to to keep um economic refugees on Turkish

[1:33:30] soil until they can be somehow resettled in Germany or Sweden or wherever. What the Turks really do is put a lot of them on boats and just send them to Greece in the middle of the night. This happens literally every day. Boats overturn, people drown. The Greek economy is going to crash because of all the of these refugees. So, the Greeks did something that was wildly unpopular in the rest of of Europe. They built a wall. An actual wall.

[1:34:00] And it stopped the problem. >> I don't know what I don't like. >> At all. >> Bad guy. >> Very bad guy. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. They built a wall, which meant they didn't have to worry about the land border anymore, and they could focus on the islands, and they really did turn back these refugees. Look at France. You know, France doesn't have birth rate to citizenship, so you can have four, five generations of people who who came from, you know, Nigeria or the Sahel,

[1:34:30] Mauritania, whatever, and um and won't integrate >> Culturally. >> culturally. They won't assimilate. Many times they don't even speak French, especially the Nigerians. >> Um >> But they're there. And you can't get rid of them. >> Mhm. >> So, yeah. It's just a problem that's getting worse and worse and worse. And I'm kind of proud that the Greeks dealt with it. >> You should be proud. I'm proud of the Irish. They They They

[1:35:00] taught everyone how to No, I'm kidding. Um John, it's really been fascinating. You're a great conversation. >> mine. Thank you so much for having me. Enjoyed your time. Thank you. >> what to expect. So, um I really appreciate you being with us. Thanks for hanging out. >> I'm really honored by the invitation. Thank you for having me. >> you for coming. Come back again. We'll talk more. >> I look forward to that. >> All right. Appreciate it. Thanks.

[1:35:30] Thank you guys so much for watching today's episode, hanging out with me, Sean Hannity. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to like this video, subscribe to the channel so you never ever ever ever miss an episode. Uh we've got a lot more great, I mean really great content coming your way. We hope you'll subscribe.