[00:00] Do you think that we're living in a simulation? >> You know, I got to say I'm surprised by the number of people that ask me that. Um, >> I don't think so. I hope not. Uh, I don't think so. >> I think that sometimes people feel like they don't have control over the environment that they're in. >> Yeah. Which is why we get that question so much. >> Yeah. And that the society and the world has set them up to fail. I was uh I was on Capitol Hill today and I was talking
[00:30] to somebody who's got the authority to you know make things happen and much of our conversation was about how he just simply cannot make things happen. He should be able to but the forces of resistance are so strong. He was talking about one one issue in particular that as a not just a senator but as a committee chairman. He should have the authority just to you know sign his name to a letter and something
[01:02] should be done. And he's like it's been six years and they just ignore me. Ignore me. Ignore me. We're talking about the CIA, NSA, FBI. They just ignore him. And then they're like what are you going to do about it? What are you going to sue us? Go ahead and sue us. And then he gets a call from, you know, the the majority leader saying, uh, "Hey, cut it out. You're making too many waves." He's like, "I'm a freaking committee chairman." So, yeah. I I mean, if even the most important people in Washington can't
[01:33] budge the CIA or the intelligence community on on issues of, you know, illegality, then we're all screwed. when I think the average person kind of feels trapped because there's so much news out there and they're like, "All right, I see this story that way. I see this story that way." Then there's social media. Like, how can people protect themselves from this? Oh, it's hard to protect yourself. One of the questions that I get a lot on my own podcast is, "What do you read in the morning?" And I go through this
[02:04] laundry list. I get up hours earlier than I probably need to just to read as much as I can possibly cram into my head every morning before I open my mouth to start talking because I want to know what's going on. But in order to learn what's going on, you have to read, you know, all sides of an issue because you don't know who to trust and then based on your own your own experience and your own analysis come to a conclusion. you know,
[02:35] time was where you could you could go to the Associated Press and feel pretty confident that you knew what was going on. And that's just not the reality anymore. >> So, how can the average person who's not as skilled as as reading through BS like you are, how can they read publications and try to read between the fine lines and see what's accurate and what's not? >> You you have to you have to go to all of the various ideological perspectives. Like I read, in fact, I'll tell you
[03:06] exactly what I read. I'll I'll call up my thing. I start off um Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, LA Times, Pittsburgh Post Gazette just to get the Steelers, Penguins, and Pirates news. Uh CNN, AP, Fox, Politico, The Hill, The New York Post. I read the Greek papers just because I'm interested. And then I go to the British press. I do the times of London, the telegraph, the Guardian, the London Evening Standard, BBC. Then I go back to drop site news, Al Jazzer, the Al
[03:37] Monitor, electronic inif, Jerusalem Post, and then I go a level down in in uh in uh independent media, Consortium News, um Axios, Covert Action Magazine, Drop Site News. I you you really have to read it all. >> And so reading a variety of sources and then like kind of sifting through a lot of the stuff and then how can somebody
[04:07] be like, "Okay, this site's clearly lying or this site's just clearly like creating rage bait." Like is it does it do you have do you have to go and then compare it to another source or is it just take time to learn what's true and what's not? It it does take time and I will say that I'm I'm a CIA trained analyst so you're trained to question everything and so I automatically do question everything. You you have to be very careful not to fall into the trap of automatically believing the outlets whose ideologies
[04:38] most align with yours. For example, at the start of COVID, I absolutely positively wanted to believe that this was because the Chinese have the wet market, the Chinese eat bats, the Chinese don't wash their hands, that it came from the wet market, from, you know, an arvark or whatever it is that they eat, a tamarind, whatever. And then I had to come to the conclusion analytically that this was a lab leak because that's where the evidence was
[05:10] pointing. And now I think the conventional wisdom is that this was a lab leak. Now we have to investigate whether it was leaked on purpose or whether the lab was a biological weapons lab or whether it was a genuine accident. We just don't know. >> And going back to your story, I know that you were worked for the CIA for a long time. and then you decided to come forward in that very famous interview. Like what was going through your mind? Like what made you want to go public even though you knew it would ruin your career?
[05:40] >> What finally did it for me was comments over two two days from President uh George W. Bush that there was no torture program. That was on a Wednesday. And then Friday he said, "Well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer." And that's when I knew that the agency was going to try to pin it on me. And so I decided to defend myself. >> And then when you came out, like what was going through your mind? Did you know what was about to unfold?
[06:12] >> You know what? I I really believed at the time quite naively in in retrospect that this was a one day story that it was going to run its course. I would be, you know, famous or infamous for for one day and then everybody was going to go back to their normal lives. And that's not at all what what happened, you know, it just it took on a life of its own. It uh it it uh lasted uh it resulted in
[06:42] investigations. It was just it was just a unlike anything I had anticipated. And then once you started to open up, was there ever a moment where you feel like you could have pulled back and then stopped then avoiding everything? >> The funny thing is that all the CIA had to do was call me and tell me stop, right? But they kept leaking stuff to the to the post where I had to go back and defend myself again. All they had to do was say just just
[07:13] let's stop and I would have stopped and none of this would have ever happened. But they're leaking into the post, leak into the post, leaking into the post. Then they then they escorted a friend of mine out of the White House. And they accused her of leaking um the information about the secret prisons. She swore she didn't do it, but they took her badge. They suspended her security clearance. They escorted her out of the White House, told her never to come back. And I was like, "Okay, so they're trying to they're trying to ruin people now. I'm going to defend myself."
[07:44] And and so I did. >> And then walk what happened after that? But I know you ended up getting going to prison for that, right? >> Yeah. I was charged initially with five felonies. Three counts of espionage, one count of making a false statement, and one count of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Um, I hadn't committed espionage and they knew I hadn't committed espionage. And so what they did, and it this wasn't specific to me, they they do this to everybody. Um, they waited until they charged me with all these multiple felonies and then
[08:14] they waited until I filed for bankruptcy and then they dropped the espionage charges and then they come back and say, "Look, you know, we can indict on other charges. We're thinking of adding a um conspiracy charge." And there was another charge they said they were considering. It was like uh it was a second false statement charge of some sort. Or you can take a plea and they just grind you down, wear you down until
[08:45] you're a little nub and you're broke and you're looking at 12 to 18 years or you can do the 23 months that they're offering. And so you take the deal. >> And so you take the deal, you go to prison. Like what was going through your mind as soon as soon as those doors closed? >> It's funny that you ask it that way. Um, and I, and this is probably because of my training, but what was going through my mind was, you're trained for this. You can handle this. You've been in far
[09:17] worse situations than this. And so, I set out to, well, I actually wrote a book about it. The third printing is just out, doing time like a spy. I decided that I would use these 20 lessons that the CIA taught me, beginning with make strategic alliances, let others do your dirty work, admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations to ensure that I stayed safe and at the
[09:49] top of the social heap. So that's what I did. >> So people didn't look at you and think you were like a snitch or anything. You were able to kind of ride through that. Yeah, thank thank God. But for a couple of different reasons, two different reasons. Number one, God bless Mark Lanzelotti. You're not supposed to go to prison to make friends. I met Mark in prison and he has become like a brother to me, one of my best friends in life. Mark read in the New
[10:19] York Times on a Sunday that I was coming to that prison on Thursday. And out of the goodness of his heart, he went to every single Italian in the prison. And I mean Italians named Gambino, Genevese, Lucesi. You get the idea. And he told them, "Listen, there's a CIA guy coming here on Thursday. He's CIA, not FBI. FBI is rats and cops. The CIA protected us from the Muslims."
[10:49] And so the Italians welcomed me with open arms. Number one. Number two, somehow, and I have no idea how, this rumor got around the Aryans that I was an assassin for the CIA and that after 9/11, I went around the world killing Muslims. They thought that was fantastic. And so I was okay with the Aryans. But then on the day that I arrived at the prison, the Nation of Islam newspaper carried a statement from
[11:20] Lewis Farrakhan saying that I was a hero of the Muslim people because I had stood up for Muslim human rights. And so I had no problem with them either, which only left the Mexicans. And in my cell, we we were in fourman cells, but they would cram six men in there. Um, four of the six were from the Burachos, the Nortenos, the Mexican Mafia, and the Halisco cartel. And one of them, the Buracho. He asked me if I
[11:51] was educated. And I said, "Yes." He said, "Would you write my appeal?" And I said, "Well, I'm not a lawyer." "Yeah, but you're educated." I'm like, "Sure. How hard could it be?" "Sure, I'll write your appeal." So, I wrote his appeal. We sent it in. It was denied, but I didn't charge him anything. And uh he asked me, "What do I owe you?" I said, "Uh, I I got people on the outside. I don't need anything." So he put the word out among the Mexicans that I was a good guy. I was honest and that I uh helped him. So I didn't have the only problems I ever had were with the
[12:22] the crooked, illiterate, corrupt guards. They were the only ones that gave me any grief at all. >> So you didn't have to do any like kind of CIA tricks as far as reading people and understanding >> that. That's what the book's about. You bet. And I'll give you an example actually. Um, I'm proud of this book. This book won two literary awards, but but it makes me look like a very bad guy. And I knew going into I was going to just be honest and write the truth and let people make
[12:52] judgments based on on, you know, their own beliefs. But I'll give you one example. There was a uh there was a serial killer in my uh in my housing unit we called truck. He was a long-distance truck driver. And in the days before uh DNA testing, he would he would pick up prostitutes at uh at truck stops and have sex with them and then he would strangle them so he didn't have to pay them. And then he would drive an hour or
[13:23] two hours and then just throw their bodies out of the side of the truck. He finally got caught because he strangled a woman, but she survived and she was able to give the cops the license plate number. So, he he was serving 40 years. He was he had already done like 35 when I met him. For whatever reason, reasons I never understood, he constantly sought my approval. Hey, John, I know you like the Steelers.
[13:53] I saved you a seat in the uh in the day room so you could watch the game. I'm like, "Okay, thanks, Truck." "Hey, John, I know you listen to classic rock. There's a new classic rock station, 1600 a.m." I'm like, "Thank you, Truck." So, with that as background, there was this other guy, Cat in the Hat, we called him, because his head was oddly elongated, like like a birth defect. And uh I had an empty bed in my cell, and he wanted to uh move in. Well, we had this rule no pedophiles and no rats.
[14:27] So I said, "Are you a pedophile?" He said, "No, I'm not a pedophile." I said, "What's your crime?" He says, "Murder for hire." I said, "I don't think I like that any more than pedophilia." So I said, "What were the circumstances?" He said, "Well, I was I was into the mob for 100 grand in in um in gambling, and I I couldn't pay it. So I took a I took a life insurance policy out on my business partner. I hired a hitman to kill him. And I said, "Let me think about it." So, I went down to the law library and I
[14:58] looked up his case. All of that was true. What he didn't say was that in order to save himself, he ratted out the hitman. And that's why he only got 20 years. So, I said, "No rats are allowed in the cell." Well, I'm in the day room one day. I'm sitting next to truck watching the Steelers game. Cat in the Hat is standing literally two feet away from me. Does not realize that I'm immediately behind him. And earlier that day, I got called to the lieutenant's office.
[15:28] Usually when you get called lieutenant's office, it's because either you're going to solitary or they want you to rat somebody out. I got called down because Jake Tapper had driven up that day from CNN to interview me and I had to sign a waiver. So, Cat in the Hat doesn't see me and he says to the guy next to him, "Did you hear? Kuryaku got called down to the lieutenant's office." He goes, "That guy's a rat. He got called down to rat us out." I didn't react at all. And Truck said, "Did you hear that guy?
[16:00] He just said you're aing rat." And then using my CIA training, I said to Truck, "Half an hour ago, I heard him call you a pedophile." And without saying a word, Truck got up and beat him almost to death. They had to land a helicopter in the yard to lifelight this guy to Pittsburgh. Truck got five years added to his sentence and he got sent back to a medium security prison. Six weeks later, Cat in the Hat
[16:32] came back and people had told him what I had done. So, he came back, he wouldn't make eye contact with me. He's like this. He's like, "I'm sorry I called you a rat. I I should never have said that. It wasn't true." And I said, "Look at me." I said, "As God is my witness, if I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead and you'll never see it coming." And he's like, "I understand. I
[17:02] understand." So, I very much used my CIA skills every single day in prison. Sometimes it was as simple as playing these moronic guards off of each other, but usually it was more serious. It was to keep myself safe. >> And what did you do for the CIA? >> Well, the first seven and a half years that I was there, I was an analyst on the Middle East. The second seven and a half, I was uh I was a counterterrorism operations officer and I became the chief of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after 9/11.
[17:35] >> Wow. >> It was it was serious duty. >> So, as much as you can get into like what were some of your roles and responsibilities? Well, I mean the basic responsibility of any CIA officer is to recruit spies to steal secrets. It's really that simple. In counterterrorism, it is to infiltrate and destroy foreign terrorist groups. And so my my primary role in Pakistan was to identify the locations of al-Qaeda's senior leadership and to launch raids to to uh
[18:07] either kill or capture them. And so I led the raid that resulted in the capture of Abu Zubeda, who we believed at the time was the number three in al-Qaeda. It was the very first high-value capture. >> And so how as far as stress goes, were you more stressed during your time in prison or when you were doing stuff like you just described? >> Oh, yeah. Prison was far more stressful. That may not even really make sense to most people. >> It seems like you had a good you had a good you had a good idea of how to work the system in there. You had people on your side. you knew how to kind of
[18:39] manipulate people when you needed to. Like, so why was prison more stressful? >> For a couple of reasons. Number one, the guards and the administrators were a wild card. I mean, they could they can disappear you if they want to. It's called diesel therapy. They can put you in transit for six months. Nobody has any idea where you are, whether you're dead or alive. And if you go on the BOP website, it just says in transit to where? From where? You're not allowed
[19:11] access to a phone. You're not allowed access to email. You're not allowed access to even a pen and paper. Literally nobody knows where you are. So that was always a concern. Um I wasn't afraid of solitary certainly. In fact, when when threatened with solitary, I said, "Warden, I got right in the warden's face one day. He got in my face, I should say, to threaten me with solitary. And I said, "Warden, I have gone nose tonose with al-Qaeda, with Hezbollah, with the Iranians,
[19:42] and you want me to be afraid of you?" I said, "Come on, give me some credit. And you're solitary? I've lived in far worse places than Lorettto, Pennsylvania. And besides, I said I could stand to lose a couple of pounds. like I'm not afraid of your solitary. And then he backed off. And then, you know, one of the Italians told me something funny one day. He mentioned he he was talking to a guard and this guard was like a tough guy. He was the only guard who wore a stab vest because he
[20:13] was so unpopular. He was pretty confident somebody was going to stab him at some point. And so the Italian said, "Uh what uh what housing unit you going to be in for the next quarter?" And he said, "I'm going to I'm going to be in Central One." And he said, "Oh, my buddy John's in Central One." And he says, "John, the CIA guy." And my friend said, "Yeah." And the guard says, "I never with that guy." And the Italian said, "Yeah, why not?" And he said,
[20:43] "That's all I need. Work eight hours and then go outside and CNN standing next to my car. No thanks." I did a Freedom of Information Act request on myself while I was there. I have a whole chapter about it in the book. And um most of it was garbage. It was 250 pages. It was like my visitors list, my medical records, just dumb stuff. But then there were there were four pages, six pages that were clearly marked FOYA exempt, do not release to inmate. And either
[21:15] somebody was so stupid that they couldn't read at the Bureau of Prisons FOYA office or or they took pity on me and thought that I should have access to this. But one of the things that stood out was this memo. It was from a week before I arrived and it was to it was from the warden to all staff telling them that I was coming and these big block letters that said caution inmate has access to the media. That's what they were afraid of. They they said something that was so petty that the reason why I wasn't in a uh a
[21:47] minimum security camp, which is where the judge ordered that I go, was because I was trained in escape techniques. Well, first of all, you watch too many movies because there is no training in escape techniques. Secondly, um I knew what you were afraid of because the foyer request. You were afraid that I'd talk to the press and I said to the warden one day, I said, "You know, this whole thing backfired on you because if I had gone to the camp, I would have kept my my head down. I would have done my 23 months and I would have gone home
[22:17] quietly. But you had to make a big production out of it." Well, I said when I entered this prison, I never gave up my constitutional rights to freedom of expression, freedom of press, freedom of speech. And so, I'm going to say yes to every interview that is requested of me. And I did. CNN, ABC News, Atlantic Monthly, The Economist, Playboy, Time Magazine, NPR twice. I said yes to everybody. And then Jake Tapper came up
[22:48] one day to interview me and the warden was sitting next to me and he said, 'What's what's your biggest challenge dayto day and I said, "Dealing with like this and I pointed at the at the warden." He just sat there like that. >> I know that like a lot of people who are in prison, they're they can be very manipulative themselves. They've gotten there for manipulating other people. How did how did you like learn who you could trust and who you couldn't trust? um you know you based on that. >> Well, I had a little bit of help. My my
[23:19] uh my attorneys were very helpful before I got there. Um one of them said uh he said, "Listen, you need to be really alert." He said, "The CIA is furious that your sentence is so short, and so they're going to try to set you up. They want you to do at least five years, and they're going to set you up. So, beware." I was there about six months. There was an Afghan American um pharmacist a couple of cells down
[23:50] from me and uh he had an oxy problem. So he was doing six years and he came up to me one day, really nice guy. He came up to me one day and he said, "Hey John, um the the spokesman for the Taliban wants to meet you. He just got transferred here." I said, "The spokesman for the Taliban? Are you talking about that case from New Jersey?" And he said, "Yeah." I said, "I don't want to talk to that guy. I got nothing to say to that guy." And he goes, "Oh, okay. I'll tell him." Couple of days later, I'm walking around
[24:20] the track outside and this like guy with a beard down to his waist, obviously Afghan, is walking right toward me with his hand out like to shake my hand. And I put my hands up and I said, "Don't touch me." And as soon as I said that, I looked past him and there's a guard in the woods outside the fence with a camera with a long range uh uh scope and he's going click click click click click click click click click click. And I
[24:51] said, "Touch me and I'm going to break your arm off." And he's like, "Come on, man. We have a lot in common." I said, "We don't have anything in common except for the fact that I tried to kill people like you. Don't touch me." and then he walked away. He was only in the prison for a week and they transferred him out. So that was their attempt to set me up. And then you know otherwise and I say this early on in the book, don't trust anybody. Mark Lanzelotti was worthy of my trust
[25:23] and he was the only person that I trusted. >> How did this all impact your family? >> I no longer have my family. That's the toll that it took on my family. Yeah. >> So, no relationship with your kids or anything like that? >> Barely. Yeah. There's one one of my kids I have five kids. I have four boys and a girl. One of the boys I'm really close to. We talk almost every day, but the rest is is just uh very difficult.
[25:54] >> Is it because of like the media attention around this and their embar maybe their their embarrassment or is it because of lies that were spread? Like what's it? Yeah. >> Yeah. Mostly. Yes. >> Um, so what was like the turning point for you in prison? Like how did you use that experience like to your advantage? >> I decided very early on that this was worthy of a book. And so, you know, everybody in prison is writing a book. And it's funny. Um, one of the guards even made fun of me. He's like, "Oh, you're writing a book?" And I go, "Yeah." He goes, "Every in prison writes
[26:27] a book." And I said, "But no has made number five on the New York Times bestsellers list," which is what my first book did. So like, "Don't don't talk down to me, idiot." So I started writing, but then they would raid my cell and they would confiscate what I had written. So what I started doing is every single day I would write and then when I was done writing I would fold it up, put it in an envelope, mark it legal mail which they
[26:58] can't mess with and send it to my attorney and she just held it for me. I ended up writing large swaths of the book twice because I couldn't remember did I write that or did I just think it, you know? So um so I sent everything to my attorney. When I got out of prison, I just hired a Georgetown student to transcribe it and then I started the editing. I sent it to my agent and then the agent got it placed. It was published by Simon and Schustster, Rare Bird Books. And um
[27:30] yeah, and it won two literary awards. So having something to focus on like that, every day I had to focus and write. I told myself that I wouldn't get up until I had written 500 words and then gotten it sent off to the lawyer. So that was what I did. >> And so would your lawyer then have to relay it to the CIA to make sure that they were cool with everything so they wouldn't get in more trouble? >> I did that when I was all done. >> Okay.
[28:00] >> She just held it. She didn't even open the uh the envelopes. She just held them for me. >> Did you ever have any like regret? I mean, you've shared that you've essentially lost your family. You put you were put through the ringer. You went through so much stress and chaos. Do you have regret in in doing what you did now? >> Never a moment's regret. The only real mistake that I made was not hiring an attorney before blowing the whistle. That's what I should have done. I should have had the attorney sitting next to me when I did it. But otherwise, no. Like substantively, no. No regrets at all. Nothing. >> And so the main whistleblowing moment
[28:31] was on that TV interview, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was uh ABC News in December of 2007. Now, were they held accountable at all too or just you? >> No, because they were media. So, there was nothing that anybody could do to them. >> So, how can the average person utilize like like let me rephrase this. So, like CIA guys or former CIA guys have become very popular on podcast now. And I think it's because there's something that I think the average person thinks they can learn from people that are spies, people
[29:03] that are intelligence officers, people that have learned how to quote unquote like hack the system. Um like how can the everyday person use some of the CIA skills that you've developed? >> Oh yeah. Um and there are a lot of skills that can be used in day-to-day life. Yeah. Um you know, I think the most important one on a day-to-day basis is independent thinking. I really do like critical analytic thinking. We're so bombarded with propaganda from the right, from the left, from overseas, and
[29:34] you know, if you don't tow the Netanyahu line, you're anti-Semitic. And it's just gotten ridiculous. It's completely out of hand. So, you've got to be able to think clearly for yourself to discern what's real and what's not real, what's propaganda, what's truth, and then come to your own conclusions. That's the most important. But then there are there are others. You know, I I did a bunch of these tongue and cheek. Uh I I mentioned to you I mentioned to you earlier in our
[30:06] conversation um uh admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. And that was that was a joke. I mean we that was even emlazed on coffee mugs at the CIA. That was just a joke. But there were other ones that I that I mentioned like let others do your dirty work or or um seek and utilize available cover.
[30:38] You know, one of the things that you learn to do at the very first sign of trouble is to run back to your cell because you're going to be hauled down to the lieutenant's office and they're going to want to know what you saw. Here it is. What you saw, you know, who did what to whom. And you're not a rat. So, I learned to seek and utilize available cover. Uh, another one is, um,
[31:13] recruit spies to steal secrets and use those secrets to improve your position. Uh, here's another one. Let me find a better one. Um, cultivate relationships. Know that everybody is working for somebody. Adapt to your current environment. Um, I mean there there are like 20 of them. Listening is always a better strategy than talking. Never I outshine the boss. Be the power behind the
[31:43] throne. If stability is not to your benefit, chaos is your friend. Find out what the target wants and use it to your advantage. Hide in plain sight. Use the subtle art of misdirection. Trust no one. Never underestimate the power of rumor. Always maintain a plausible cover for action. And know your enemy. Um, I mean, all of those can be applied in just normal daily life. Not even in in a prison, you know, just in a prison
[32:13] where you're in constant danger of, you know, being walloped for reasons you'll never understand. >> Let's talk about the critical thinking part because that kind of goes back to the beginning where I said I asked if we were kind of living in this simulation because there's almost there's all this news that's just in inbound to people. How can people take back control of their minds to be able to think critically outside of just reading, you know, different news sites. >> You know, I wish there was an easy answer to that and there is no easy
[32:45] answer to that. Some people some people are so steeped in their personal ideology that they just seek out information that helps to confirm their their already currently held positions. You know, for example, I I belong to a men's group. Um and uh it's a it's a fraternity and um almost everybody literally almost everybody in the group is a retired
[33:16] colonel or lieutenant colonel in the military. I mean, I live in Northern Virginia. That's just the way it is. And all they watch all day long is Fox News. or some of them say, "Oh, Fox is too far to the left." And they watch OA or Newsmax or whatever. Okay. Well, that's not going to help you learn anything. It's just reinforcing your own, you know, your own little world. I watch Fox and CNN and MSNBC and BBC
[33:46] and Al Jazer because I want to hear what everybody's got to say. Frankly, hearing what everybody has to say helps me hone my own positions. And I've changed my personal positions on issues just because some of these broadcasts have convinced me that my previously held position was wrong, right? I mean, what kind of what kind of intellect are you supposed to be if you refuse to admit when you're wrong? That doesn't help anybody. And frankly, it
[34:18] just makes you look silly. So that's what I tell people all the time. Never ever be wedded to one news network. Read everything. Listen to everybody. >> And I think that people they worry about being manipulated too. And I think that's like a CIA skill that's been very popular to talk about is how do you protect yourself from being manipulated? Like what are some of the things that people can do when they're in conversation to protect themselves from that? >> If you're a person who has had access to classified information. You mean
[34:49] >> I think in in general, how can somebody protect themselves by being manipulated from somebody in everyday conversation? >> You know, sometimes it's not possible to protect yourself from being manipulated. Yeah. I I was on the Sean Hannity podcast yesterday and I was a little bit nervous because I'd never done Hannity. He's like the last of the really giant podcasts in America that I've that I have wanted to do. And I've got I've got some very well-placed friends um
[35:20] including at Fox who warned me he's going to come out swinging. He's not a fan of yours. This is going to be a tough one. So I you know I don't prepare for these things because I figure if I don't know these issues by now I'm never ever going to know them. and I'm confident enough in my own positions and I'm I'm I'm not too um arrogant to admit when I'm wrong. So, I went on the podcast. I argued my
[35:51] side, not as forcefully as I have in, you know, in other instances, but I argued my side. And halfway through the podcast, he said, "You know, I was fully prepared to not like you." And I said, 'Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I like you.' And he said, 'N no, I I like you and I I want you to come back. I said, 'I would love to come back.' So, they posted it almost immediately. I'm going to say less than 24 hours later, they posted it. It's a long interview. It's an over
[36:22] an hour and 30 minutes. And um and three friends of mine independently of one another texted me to say that they had just watched it. and that they were proud that I saw his attempts to manipulate me and I fended them off. I didn't I didn't even notice any attempts to manipulate me. To me, it was just a conversation. So, if it's hard for even somebody like
[36:54] me who's been trained in this kind of thing to not even recognize an attempt at manipulation, you know, how's the average person going to do it? It's It's very very difficult. >> So, what was that conversation like? Could you feel his energy was just kind of hostile towards you at the beginning and then it shifted midway through? >> It was not hostile at the beginning. It was It was aggressive. Aggressive, but not hostile.
[37:26] I will say he interrupts a lot. And so just as I'm getting on this train of thought that I I need to make my point, he he would jump in and switch the subject. So that was a little bit frustrating, but uh but that's okay because it ended up being, you know, a a spirited conversation. I think a skill that you've probably learned is how to have thought-provoking conversations with people and stand your ground without losing your cool. like how can how can
[37:57] the average person get better at that? >> Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I'll tell you, I'm I'm a regular on the Pierce Morgan show. And I can't tell you how many times people have just like taken off the microphone and getting up and walking out. It's like really, it's just a conversation. What are you getting all huffy about and you get up and walk out? If you if you believe what you're saying and you say it in a conversational tone,
[38:29] but somebody responds to you with hostility, that's on them. It doesn't hurt you in any way. Like if somebody loses his cool and calls me an okay, maybe I am an but but that's on you if you can't handle what it is that I'm saying. So, I just kind of, you know, state my case, defend myself. Andrew Bamante and I uh did a debate on uh on
[39:02] uh the Danny Jones podcast about a year and a half ago, and it was a, like I said earlier, spirited. It was a spirited debate. I put him in an intellectual box in a corner at one point and he lashed out and he got nasty and um and I I just wouldn't concede. I just kept going back to my my analytic points. When I got home that night, Alan
[39:34] Dersowitz called me. Alan Dersowitz, the professor emeritus of Harvard Law School, advisor to Donald Trump. Duritz called me and said that he had just watched the podcast and he said, "You gave that kid a master class on the Constitution." And I said, "I'm so glad that you see it that way because I felt like his arguments were irrational." And he said, "They were. He hadn't
[40:04] thought them through. But Andrew is a smart guy. He knows he's a smart guy. And he thinks that his intelligence can get him out of of debates where he hasn't really fully thought through his positions. So, if you're going to take a position on something and you're unwilling to allow someone else to cause you to change your mind, man, you better be 100% sure that you can defend that
[40:35] position because if you can't, you're going to look foolish. But this is a skill that I feel like you've had to sharpen because a lot of people, they would fall, they would default to people pleasing because they get so nervous or scared. they don't want the conversation to go bad or they don't have the confidence in their position to kind of stand there or they get rattled and then when you get rattled then it's easier for that other person to kind of just sit there and just keep throwing jabs at you because you're already emotionally rattled. Is there I I mean I
[41:05] do you do anything like meditation or breath work? Like how do you how have you gotten to the point where you can have these conversations and just be even keel even when people are trashing you? >> You know what it is Doug? It's making the same arguments sometimes multiple times a day since 2007. That's what it is. This has become my life. Debating people is my life. Sometimes I will appear on as many as
[41:36] six podcasts in a day. I've cut back like seriously since since my popularity has risen um just because there aren't enough hours in the day. But but I have made these arguments so many times. I have been hit with every question a person could possibly think of that it's made me that confident in my position that you know I just go with it. >> How can somebody tell if they're being
[42:06] lied to? Is it is it easier than than manipulation? >> Uh yeah. It's funny that you ask. I actually wrote a book called The CIA Insiders Guide to Lying and Lie Detection. Um, there are a couple of physical tells. People will look down when answering or they'll look up as if they're reading a script that they're preparing for themselves in their minds. They fidget. They clear their throat, which is a delaying tactic even just for a second. Um, and the deeper you go into a
[42:38] conversation, if they lose their train of thought or contradict themselves, it's because they can't keep the lie straight. So, going into a conversation, let's take it two ways. One where you know the person's going to lie to you and the other one where you catch them in a lie mid-sentence. If if let's just say you catch someone doing something. Let's just say you catch your partner cheating on you and you know that they're going to lie to you about this when you go into that conversation like what's the playbook? >> You know, as Sergeant Joe Friday used to
[43:08] say, just the facts, ma'am. Just hit him with the facts. Listen, I've been in this situation more than once. And when when they immediately go to gaslighting, you know you've got them. Are you cheating on me? You are mentally ill. You know that you are mentally ill. Okay, so you are cheating on me. You know, they just go over the top in defense. And then is the goal to expose them or is the goal to just prove
[43:41] your point and then walk away and not >> That's it right there. Prove your point, walk away. You can't go back in time. You're not going to convince them to take responsibility for their actions. You have to immediately reset yourself to self-p protection. That's what it comes down to. >> You know, you mentioned Andrew Bamante. I love him. He's been on the show a few times. I know you guys have had your differences. One of the things I learned
[44:11] from him about lying and I'd love to get your thoughts is about pattern recognition. Like you have to consistency with someone to see how they behave and if they start to behave a little differently or speak differently then there's a chance they may be lying. Like is that would you say would you agree with that as a good tactic? >> Yeah, I agree with that. And you know, one of the one of the best examples is uh in Godfather 2 between Michael Corleon and Fredo, his older but less uh less able brother.
[44:44] Um there's one scene where where Michael first of all, Michael is angry at Fredo because of the way Fredo questioned him in the presence of Mo Green, if you remember, over the sale of a of a casino in Las Vegas. And then um later in the film uh Michael asks Fredo if he knows so and so and he says no I don't know him. I never met him. And then still later he mentions that person. Fredo mentions
[45:15] the person that he claimed not to know and said that they went all over Havana together and that that guy knows all the best clubs in Havana. That's how Michael knew that Fredo had had um turned on him and he gave him sort of the kiss of Judas and said, "I knew it was you, Fredo." And it was because of the change in in Fredo's pattern of responding to his brother's questions. >> Yeah. Because
[45:46] you're so right because the way I I understand it as well is it's like you you mentioned the delays and if somebody's clearing their throat or they contradict themselves, but somebody might just talk like that where they stutter, you know, often no matter if they're telling the truth or not, but if and then they >> but the truth is the truth and that won't or that shouldn't change. So, if you're mid-con conversation with somebody and you catch them in a lie, like how do you take the conversation further so that either you get them to
[46:17] admit that they were lying if they're not like some sort of sociopath or um you prove your point, you can walk away? >> It depends on the person that you're arguing with or debating. If if we're talking about a cheating spouse, no, I I wouldn't I wouldn't call her on the lie. I would certainly make a note of it, probably a written note, and then look for the best def divorce attorney money could buy, which is exactly what I did. Um, if it's if it's something professional
[46:50] at the CIA, if you're, you know, trying to recruit a spy to steal a secret, everybody's going to be lying to you. And so, you have to sort of take that into consideration. But then, you know, you have tools at the CIA that you don't have in in regular life. Like, I think this guy lies to me all the time. I think he's lying about his access. So, I'm going to strap him to the polygraph. And we're going to get to the bottom of this today. And if he's lying, he's cut off. He's fired. We call it terminated, but it's an unfortunate word. That just means he's fired. And we we end our
[47:22] relationship. If it's a friend, well, you know, make a mental note. Soand-so is not reliable. He's lying to me. I know he's lying to me. I generally don't call people out on lying except when I was at the agency and it was a source lying to me. I'd call them out then. >> And I think people they're either lied to or they're manipulated or they start to go down these echo chambers and they don't even realize it. Like how does that happen? >> Yeah. You know, I I I think probably the
[47:55] easiest way to describe it is is when people feel that they can get away with their lies or they feel like they're smart enough that they can build up a lie and then maintain the lie. George uh Santos, this former congressman, he was congressman for 15 minutes from Long Island. He was a serial fabulist. He lied about literally everything in life. Literally everything. And um you know it caught up
[48:26] with him and he ended up in prison and then he got like seven years. He was in prison for a few months and and Trump uh pardoned him. But um you can't build a life on lies. It's not sustainable. It's eventually going to just all come tumbling down. And I think that people who lie, if they're not careful, they'll like, "Oh, what's the danger of a little white lie here and there and then that becomes your personality. Then you just become known as a liar, which isn't good." >> My first station chief told me one time
[48:58] at the agency, "Never lie to medical, security, or finance because not only will they ruin your career, they can put you in prison." And he said, "And I'll add to that," never lie to me. And I I always thought those were good words to live by. >> Yeah. And bring And speaking of cheating, I mean, there's a rule that I have that I if I find out you're like actively cheating on your spouse emotionally, physically, I don't care
[49:28] what it is. Like, I won't keep you in my circle whatsoever. Because if you're doing that to the person that you're like sleeping with, laying next to, like, what are you going to do to me? >> Yeah. Exactly right. I feel exactly the same way. >> You're somebody that strikes me you'd be hard to manipulate based on your experience, what you've learned, what you survived. What's the easiest type of person who often gets manipulated? >> Someone who has an identifiable vulnerability. Vulnerability is an
[49:59] important word at the CIA. A vulnerability can mean almost anything. Anything that can be exploited to get you to do what I want. So maybe the vulnerability is you want more money. It's as easy as that. You just want more money and so I give you a monthly salary and in exchange you give me information. But the vulnerability could be something as genuine as you just really really love
[50:30] your kids and you want your kids to go to Harvard, let's say, instead of, you know, the local college in Cameroon or wherever we happen to be. I'll get your kids into Harvard, but you have to do what I what I want you to do. Another vulnerability may be um you got passed over for promotion one too many times and you're so off at your boss that you want to get revenge on him. And so you'll give me classified
[51:03] information just to screw your boss. I mean usually it's money, sometimes it's love of family. There was one guy who was very wellplaced who gave me the kitchen sink because his wife had breast cancer and he really really wanted her to go to the Mayo Clinic and so we put her in the Mayo Clinic. Yeah. So it's it's all about vulnerabilities and and not in a bad way. I just need to identify something that you want.
[51:35] I give it to you and in exchange you give me what I want. >> Yeah. Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's finding out what drives them and what motivates them to move forward and then using that to your advantage. >> That's exactly right. >> What's been something that you've done over the course of your life when you've manipulated somebody that you look back and you feel bad you feel bad about? Yeah, there was one person professionally,
[52:06] lovely lady, older lady, she's long dead now. I I was working with a source who was so sensitive, I could not risk meeting him in hotels or restaurants. We just could not be seen in public together. So, what we would normally do would be to meet at 2:00 in the morning. I would find some deserted place, like the parking lot of a closed factory at 2:00 in the morning,
[52:39] and we would meet there. And then I I decided that for security reasons, you know, any cop could be driving through the parking lot at any given time just to make sure kids aren't there, you know, doing drugs or breaking windows or whatever. that even meeting at the parking lot at two o'clock in the morning was too risky. So, I wanted to rent a safe house. Well, why would an accredited diplomat be renting an apartment, right? I mean, that you can't do that.
[53:10] That would raise all kinds of red flags. That would identify me as a CIA officer. So, I had to recruit what's called a safe housekeeper. I recruit somebody whose sole job it is to just go out and rent me an apartment in his or her name, keep it clean, keep it stocked with, you know, water. And I use it one night a week for two hours and otherwise it just sits empty. And this woman just did not want to do
[53:44] it. and I cajol and I argued and I sweet talked and she finally agreed to do it and then um and then she had like like some kind of nervous breakdown like she didn't even know what I was going to use it for. I think she probably thought I was cheating on my wife and that's why I wanted this, you know, Pieta terror. That wasn't it at all. But um she ended up having some sort of
[54:16] a breakdown and she had to leave the country and move back to the United States and her family took care of her. And I always wondered if if that was because I pressured her too much. >> Are you taught to not have remorse or regret when you do things like that? >> And you really convince yourself. I mean, the whole culture convinces you that that that we're the good guy the good guys. We're all the good guys. We're do this is this is God's work. We're doing it for Uncle Sam and to keep Americans
[54:46] safe. And you know, don't ever question yourself. We're the good guys. >> You've dealt with a lot of pressure both from your career, prison, even like what you're do with what you're doing now. Like what do you lean on mentally when you get overwhelmed? music, exercise, really great movies. You have to be able to just completely shut it off and do something totally different. I recommend to people all the time, music, exercise, and movies.
[55:19] Immerse yourself. Go to the gym. Go for a run. Listen to an hour or two of uninterrupted music. You know, headphones. Don't answer the phone. Don't surf the the internet. just do something for yourself. And it's hard, you know, everybody's busy. Everybody's wired electronically to different devices, and it's hard, but it's important. >> What's your go-to like music or a movie to watch if you've just gotten in like a war with somebody on Twitter?
[55:50] >> Don't laugh at me. Um, but I listen to a lot of classic rock, mostly early to mid70s classic rock. Um, I listen to folk specifically from the 30s and 40s and 50s. And more than anything else probably, I listen to Greek music. There's a there's a genre of Greek music that came out of the prisons and the opium dens of Constantinople around the turn of the
[56:20] 20th century called Reetica. It's a Greek like blues is is the way most people describe it and um and mostly I listen to that. >> It's a classic rock like Zeppelin stuff like that. >> Definitely definitely love it. >> What's your workout routine like to keep your mind sane? O only in the last year I've gotten so busy that I finally gave up my gym membership. But um now I I go for very long walks, but I I go with
[56:52] earbuds so I'm not distracted by by people or by traffic or things like that. So I do a lot of walking. Um before I used to I used to go to the gym almost every day. Yeah. and you start, you know, 15 minutes on the treadmill just to warm up. And then you got to do you got to do weights. It's all about muscle tone. You don't want to just shrivel up and, you know, blow away.
[57:22] >> How important do you think uh exercise and your overall health is for things like mindset, confidence? >> Critical. Absolutely critical. Um, you almost can't work at the CIA and not have PTSD. In fact, I I've got a buddy. We go to the same church. We're in the same men's group and we also worked at the CIA together and consumate overachiever. He's also a brigadier general in the
[57:53] army and a psychiatrist. Yeah. So, he's done everything. And he said to me one time, "I find it fascinating that you came back from Pakistan with no PTSD, but you have crippling PTSD from your divorce." And I said, "I allowed myself, despite my training, to trust one person,
[58:23] and that was the person who betrayed me. He diagnosed me with something called moral injury, which is a a relatively new diagnosis. It appears in the DSM6. And um I had never heard of it. I had to look it up. And what it comes down to is if you're raised in a certain way to believe that these things are right and these things are wrong and the wrong things you just don't do and then
[58:53] somebody does it to you. Your brain cannot wrap itself around the fact that this has been done to you and it leads to PTSD. From what I've gathered, it was it was a very high conflict divorce, very stressful for you. And which So would you kind of agree in the fact that that situation was harder than everything you went through with leaving the CIA? >> Oh, my my divorce was the was the worst thing I ever went through in my life. Far far worse than prison. Far worse
[59:24] than being arrested and and yeah, any of that stuff. far more difficult than going after al-Qaeda or the Iranians or Hezbollah or any of the things I ever did at the CIA >> and just because of the the moral part of it for you. >> Yeah. You want to you want to have like one person in life that you can trust. Just one. Is that asking too much? >> Yeah. I never thought so. I think that
[59:54] people have a hard time dealing with stress and anxiety. Um, what are some of your tips for how people can not get overwhelmed when things aren't going their way? >> Yeah, you've got to, this is one of the things that they taught us at the agency, too. You've got to do things for yourself. You know, take up a hobby. I have no hobbies. I honest to God, I'm not just blowing smoke here. I'm the hardest working person I know. I I work easily 16 hours
[1:00:28] a day. I actually set my alarm for 4 a.m. just so I can answer cameo requests until 7 o'clock and then start my regular workday. Um but I have no hobbies. I used to, but I don't. So I decided to take up a hobby. I took up astrophotography, right? photographing the planets and then nebula and galaxies and stuff like that and it requires great patience
[1:00:58] and so that's actually worked out for me. But, you know, go get a massage, go to the gym, go swimming at the YMCA or whatever, do something. Go biking. You know, now electronic bikes are everywhere. There's no reason that everybody shouldn't be biking because you don't even have to pedal up hill anymore. It's all electronic. So, you got to do something for yourself. You got to block off time for yourself. Otherwise, you burn out and you go crazy. >> What about like if something stressful
[1:01:30] happens like in the moment? Like, how can people zone out from that? >> Yeah. You know, three people over the last three days have recommended meditation to me. Um, I've never I've never meditated. my brother swears by it and other people that I've spoken to say it's the greatest thing that that they ever took up. So there there's got to be something to it. You know, there's something that's popular in my area right now and it's these um stretching clinics, right, where you pay 50 bucks and then
[1:02:01] they stretch the heck out of your body. And I'm told that that is like supremely relaxing and excellent. I haven't tried it myself. I will say that I've broken the piggy bank and I've I've gone to get massages for the very first time in my life and there I I'm not even sure I can come up with something that is more satisfying and feels better than getting a massage. >> I mean, you've been through so much. Like, have you gone to therapy or anything to deal with some of the
[1:02:32] trauma? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's funny. I like I say, I never had PTSD from from the agency. Never. Um but my divorce just destroyed me. >> Like what's your mission now? Like I mean is your main is your main mission now what you're doing with the podcast and and interviews and speaking about like current events. >> Yes. I've been extraordinarily fortunate in the last eight weeks or so in that I gave an interview to uh to Stephen uh
[1:03:04] Barllet at Diary of a CEO and a 20-year-old sophomore from the University of Texas at Austin took that interview and chopped it up into shorts and gave me an Elvin and the Chipmunk's voice and had laser beams shooting out of my eyes. All in good fun. And it just went crazy viral on Tik Tok to the point where I'm not exaggerating when I tell you I can't walk 25 ft down the street without somebody stopping me and asking
[1:03:34] for a selfie. And I always say yes. Always. I flew from Miami last night to Washington. I got stopped five times at the airport and twice on the plane and asked for selfies. So out of that came representation by a major talent agency. Um invitations for speeches and you know new publishing
[1:04:06] deals and I'm repped in Hollywood. Um I'm going to be the spokesman for you know this company or that company or the other company. It's just my whole life has changed in the last eight weeks. So the anchor of that is is my podcast and um and I've got my books for many years as as a hobby until a couple of years ago when I ran out of time. I would write television pilots and I've been fortunate enough to sell eight of them
[1:04:37] over the last 20 years in Hollywood. So, I've I've got a manager and and an agent and an entertainment attorney, and that's fun to do. So, I'm just going to keep writing and podcasting and speaking and and call that my career. >> What's your message to people who I mean, your turning point was a pretty hard turn, right? But a lot of people, they they have these turning points where they lose a job or they get divorced or maybe they have to go to rehab for six months
[1:05:08] and they feel like they're stuck. What's your message to them based on what you've learned about your own journey? >> Yeah, you're you're actually not stuck. It feels like it, but things really do get better. They really do. You know, let me tell you a story, too. Have you ever heard of the folk singer Pete Seager? You you have you have you just don't know it. All the songs from our our youth that we learned in kindergarten, those were all Pete Seager songs. Anyway, um Pete told me a story
[1:05:41] one time about the folk singer Phil Oaks. Phil Oaks was huge in the 60s and 70s. Phil um Phil was on a tour of Africa to sing and put on concerts and he got mugged and the mugger cut his cut his throat and he lived but he was no longer able to sing high notes and he went into a deep depression. One night, Pete was performing at the Cafe Wah in Greenwich Village and he had
[1:06:14] to literally run to Grand Central Station to catch the last train to Beacon, New York, which is where he lived. It was the last train of the night. So, just as he's packing up his banjo and he's going to physically run to Grand Central, Phil Oaks calls and one of the waitresses says, "Pete, Phil Oaks is on the phone for you." And he grabs the phone. He said, "Phil, I can't talk. I've got to run and catch the last train to Beacon. And he he said, "Call me tomorrow." And he hung up and Phillips killed himself.
[1:06:46] He wanted to be talked out of it. And Pete said that selfish prick. He said, "I'll never forgive him." He had no idea how much he was hurting the people who meant the most to him. So, you know, when you're feeling at your lowest, like you're never going to claw your way out of this. First of all, that's just simply not true. It really does get better. But you have no idea
[1:07:19] how loved you are and how much you would hurt the people that you care about the most. I had a friend, James. James did some really stupid when he was young. And he ended up he ended up doing a 17 years of a 20-year sentence. And I mean, it's hard enough to get a job when you you've got a a felony conviction. If you have a violent felony conviction, you're never going to work.
[1:07:50] Not in any meaningful way. And so he went overseas. Uh he was really ripped. He used to used to lift every day. So he went into porn for a while. and he just he things just weren't working out for him. And he decided that he was going to commit suicide, but he didn't want to make a mess in his mother's house. So, he took a gun, he drove to a Walmart parking lot to kill himself. And just as he puts the gun into his mouth,
[1:08:21] an offduty ATF agent pulls into the next space. He just finished his shift and he's going to go into Walmart to do his grocery shopping. pulls out his gun. Drop the gun. Drop the gun. James says, "You don't understand. I'm I'm going to kill myself. I'm not going to rob the the Walmart." Anyway, the ATF agent disarmed him. They charged him with felon with a gun. It's a mandatory minimum sentence of eight years, but he got out on bail. And he used to call me
[1:08:52] every single day and say, "I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to kill myself." And I'd say, "James, you say this every day. You're not going to kill yourself. You're going to relax. You're going to do what your attorney tells you to do." I said, "Buddy, take a break. Fly out here. I'm in DC." He was in Montana. Fly out here for a week or two and just decompress and we can talk about everything. You're going to get past it. You're not going to get fell in with a gun. you know, the the attorney is going to argue, you
[1:09:23] know, mental strain and well, on July 4th of 2023, his sister was lighting a firecracker and it went off in her hand and it blew two of her fingers off. So, he calls me and he says, "My sister had this accident with a firecracker. She's in surgery now. They're trying to sew her fingers back on." And I said, "Oh my god, that's terrible. I'll send flowers. tell her, you know, I hope uh everything works out okay. And I said, but you
[1:09:54] sound awfully good and he said, "Yeah, I feel really good. I feel really good about things." I said, "Great, great." Two days later, his sister calls me. And I said, "Oh my god, how are you doing?" She said, "I'm okay. It was a long surgery. They reattached my fingers. That's not why I'm calling." She said, "James killed himself last night." And I was like, "What?" I said, "Why would he do that?" I said, "I just talked to him two days ago. He sounded great. And she said he sounded great because he had made up his mind to do it. And he left a
[1:10:25] note and he said to his mother, "Call John and tell him I said I was sorry." And I felt just like Pete Seager felt with Phil Oaks. You selfish bastard. How could you do this? I told you a thousand times. Call me. Call me if you're thinking of doing something like that. and he didn't. He walked down to a neighbor's house, strung up a noose in an oak tree, and he
[1:10:56] hung himself. And just like Pete said, I'll never forgive him for doing that. But anyway, things really do get better. There are a thousand people out there who want the best for you and who are willing to take a phone call and be a a friendly ear. Rely on the people around you. Rely on your friends and family. That's what I would say. >> Was there ever a moment for you where you felt hopeless and down in the dumps
[1:11:27] like that? >> Yeah. The night that I got arrested and my and my wife talked me out of it. I had five kids at home, too. >> What was that moment like where you just were just then that moment your world was coming crashing down on you? >> She um we were watching TV the night of my arrest and uh she said she said, "Let's let's go to bed. this has been a terrible day. Let's just go to bed. And I said, "No, you go to bed. I'm gonna watch some more TV." And I wasn't going to watch TV. I was going to go down into the garage and start the car and just lay across the back seat. And I think
[1:11:58] she suspected it. And she said, "No, let's go to bed." And she stood there until I finally shut off the TV and got up and and we went to bed. >> Then you got arrested that night. >> No, no, I got arrested that morning. That's why I was so upset. Like looking back, knowing what you know now, what would you have told your self that day? Knowing what you know now, >> you can tough this out. This is not going to be as bad as you think it is. In fact, my brother said something to me the day of my arrest. He said, "I know you can't see it, but this is going to
[1:12:29] turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you." And he was right. As crazy as it sounds, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. You know, I think that people they have this internal voice that's telling them to do something, whether it's to start a company, whether it's to, you know, break up with somebody, whether it's to, you know, ask somebody to marry them, whatever. And they don't do it. They don't do it. Like, what do you think can happen to the person that ignores their internal voice?
[1:13:00] >> Yeah. And, you know, listen to that internal voice. Certainly seek counsel from people you trust, but listen to that internal voice. >> It's important, right? >> It is. >> So, as we kind of bring this uh to a close, like I got to ask, so what do you think? What is your overall perspective of the world right now and what we're going through? >> I think the world's in a very dangerous place right now. Very dangerous. you know, we've we've got the Russia Ukraine
[1:13:32] war still, you know, in a stalemate. Well, not really. The Russians are winning, but I mean, you they'll they'll fight for weeks over 15 ft of territory. Um, we've got, you know, the USIsraeli war against Iran, the opening and closing and then reopening of the of the street of Hormuz. Europe. Yesterday, I saw breaking news. Europe has six weeks of jet fuel left. It'll be an economic calamity around the world if Europe runs out of jet fuel. Uh in the meantime, the
[1:14:04] Chinese are expanding by leaps and bounds. Here in the United States, we're we're split right down the center politically, ideologically. I mean, I I've not seen anything like this certainly in my adult lifetime, but I'm I'm just old enough to remember 1968, 1969. when I was a kid. Um, and things were as terrible then as they are now. You know, Martin Luther King's assassinated, then Bobby Kennedy's assassinated, then Kent State, and then
[1:14:35] the summer of love, and everybody's in the street, and the cops are shooting unarmed people, and yeah, I think we're just as split now as we were in ' 68 and 69. >> Do you think that we're going to that Do you think that there's a bigger threat now for like local acts of terrorism? Not necessarily. I think what we have to be worried about are acts of lone wolf terrorism. You know, somebody walking into a church or a synagogue or a mosque and just opening fire. You know, we've
[1:15:07] got what is it like a mass shooting a day according to the FBI's definition of a mass shooting where three or more people are injured every day. I was I was giving an interview to a to a Hungarian psychiatrist today. he's doing a a study on um on trauma and um he told me that um he's interviewed several FBI profilers who told him that in the 1970s and the 1980s
[1:15:40] so the so-called golden age of serial killers there was a point where there were 150 serial killers loose killing Now, on any given day, there are 30 serial killers loose in America that we just haven't caught yet. And he and he said, you know, in Hungary, we can't even fathom something like this because we've never had a serial killer. Not a single one. And here in the United
[1:16:11] States, the first documented serial killer began killing in 1792. >> That's crazy. I didn't know that. >> It's a part of our culture. So, do you think the what do you think the average person can do? Because I think you see some people like, "Oh, you should just move out of the country." Like, what can just stay here and stay informed? >> For better or for worse, we have to live and work within the system that we've created for ourselves. And so, yeah, be as well informed as you possibly can be, vote your conscience, and then demand change from your elected
[1:16:44] officials. They work for us and by God, if they don't do what we tell them to do, then we've got to throw them out and elect somebody else. We have to take the system seriously because it's the only system that we have. >> John, thanks so much for coming on the pod. Where can people learn more about what you're doing? >> Oh, thank you. Mostly it's at uh johncuryaku.com, but my my two podcasts are Deep Focus on YouTube and John Kuryaku's Dead Drop on Apple Podcast. I'm proud to say it's in
[1:17:16] the top onetenth of 1% of all podcasts worldwide. Isn't that crazy? >> And is all your popularity you said is coming just in the last couple months? >> Yeah, the last two months. >> That's awesome, man. Yeah, crazy. I'm very grateful. >> Well, thanks again for coming on the show and um appreciate you and uh yeah, and it's it's really it's been really I guess kind of cool to follow along with your journey and see what you're doing now. >> Thank you very much. Good to see you,
[1:17:47] Doug.