[00:00] We all sit down and the president says, "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at me. I'm 25 years old. They're asking for my advice [music] on issues of war and peace. I rose up to be the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan [music] after the 9/11 attacks. December of 2007 I gave a nationally televised interview to ABC News [music] in which I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. The Obama administration secretly reopened the case against me. They charged me with five felonies for blowing the
[00:30] whistle on the torture program. >> And curious and [music] all based off everything that you know and what you've done, what do you see most people get wrong when it comes to trying to [music] influence someone to get something from? >> I'm always surprised at how many people think that >> What are the fastest ways to deepen rapport and trust with someone? >> You try to quickly assess what it is this guy >> John, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you. >> You spent 2 years in jail. Nearly a
[01:00] 3-year sentence, wasn't it? Without >> Yeah, it was a 2 and 1/2 year sentence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh for blowing the whistle on things CIA were doing. >> Mhm. >> Uh and since then they've made your life kind of difficult and life's changed a lot. >> to. >> They've tried to. For the people who might have maybe maybe they've seen your face, maybe they've seen some clips, or maybe they don't even know who you are. >> Right. >> How would you introduce yourself? Who Who were you before all of that happened? >> Sure. I'm John Kiriakou. I was a CIA officer for oh, about 14 and 1/2 years. And um I
[01:33] rose up to be the chief of CIA counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after the 9/11 attacks. Um had actually some even more senior jobs after that. But um I objected to the CIA's torture program. Uh at first internally and later on in public to ABC News in 2007. December of 2007 I gave a nationally televised uh interview to ABC News in which I said that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. Funny enough, the Bush administration elected to not prosecute me because
[02:05] it is a crime to classify a crime. And they said that torture was a crime and so blowing the whistle on it was not a crime even if the the program had been classified. The Obama administration under the under the leadership of John Brennan however uh asked the Justice Department to secretly reopen the case against me. They investigated me for three more years and then finally charged me with five felonies including three counts of
[02:36] espionage for blowing the whistle on the torture program. >> In in that period were you were you working with them or did you quit and then >> Oh, no, no, no. I I left in 2004. >> Oh, okay. So, you were out before you came public. >> Yeah, I kept waiting for somebody to say something about this illegal clearly illegal program. And nobody did and then finally I did. And um and then in the meantime I went into the private sector for 4 years. I left there and then I went to the I was the chief investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for 2 and
[03:08] 1/2 years and then went into business for myself and that's when you know, they came down on me. >> So, so you spent nearly 15 years um not just as some sort of by the sounds of it some sort of lower level. You're you're a quite you were doing some some wild [ __ ] >> Oh, yeah. >> And from what I've seen and putting the research together on you is you spent a lot of time essentially on the ground getting people to know you, like you, and trust you enough where they would give up secrets where they're committing treason or on country. >> Mhm. >> Um I really want to focus a lot on the
[03:39] topic of influence and and that whole subject. And I'm curious to know based off everything you know and what you've done, what do you see most people get wrong when it comes to trying to influence someone to get something from them? >> You know, I'm always surprised at how many people think that the CIA uses coercion to get people to give up secrets. Coercion doesn't work. If I come up to you and I say, you know, "Listen, give me your secrets or I'm going to you know, punch you in the face."
[04:11] You're going to tell me to go fly a kite. >> Mhm. >> But, if I befriend you and I you know, spend money on you and we vacation together and our wives become friends and our kids become friends and you know, we really become close. You're going to do it just because we're friends. You know, if if we've been friends for a year and we we took our families on a ski trip together and we go out for
[04:41] guys' night and go have a couple of beers and and we're really close. And I say, "Morgan, listen, I I could really use the I'm having some trouble at work and one thing that was real that would really help me is I could really use the plans to that new Russian tank that you have access to. That would so help me out. I would really be grateful." You're going to do it because you like me, because we're friends, not cuz I've threatened you or I have you know, pictures of you with
[05:13] a prostitute and I'm threatening to show your wife. That that's not going to get me anywhere. >> But, would you you would have all of these things >> No, no. >> Do you not have a plan B, C, D? >> You don't even You don't even go down that road. Nothing good is going to come of that. No. The Russians do it. The Israelis do it. We don't do it. It's wasted time. >> So, cuz I'm I'm trying to put myself in that position. I'm just I'm picturing myself with one of my best friends. Known him for over a decade. If I was working If I had access to secret
[05:45] intelligence, I'm working with the Australian government. And he said that to me, I'd be like, bro, I love you. >> But it's not going to happen. >> No way. Yeah. >> See, and I would say the same thing because you and I are not recruitable. >> Right. >> But I haven't targeted you because you're a great guy. I've targeted you because you have access, but you also have a gambling problem. Or a drug problem, or an alcohol problem, or maybe your wife's got cancer and you would really, really like for her to be treated at the Mayo
[06:15] Clinic. Or you're not making any money, but you really want your kid to go to a great American university. I'm I'm looking for a a hook, a vulnerability. It's not just cuz you're a great guy. I don't care if you're a great guy. I'm going to pretend that you're a great guy if you're not. But I'm also looking for that vulnerability that I can latch on to. >> So not everyone is recruitable. >> No. >> Does it sound >> Most people, I would say, are not recruitable. >> What would you do if you're up against someone who you've been found to
[06:46] they're unrecruitable. But you needed to get access to something from them. >> I'd break into their office and steal it. >> Okay. Right. Okay. Cuz I mean, there's so much I want to unpack here. Um from your recommendation, actually, I saw you to say on another podcast, you're like, um Homeland. >> Yeah. >> Did I can't remember what you said. Did you say that was quite accurate? >> Quite accurate. The only thing that's not accurate about Homeland is if you go nuts while you're overseas, they're going to bring you home. They're not going to just say, "Ah, it's kind of a
[07:17] shame she went nuts. Well, let's leave her in the field, let her do do her thing." >> Little dramatic. >> Yeah, it's it's too much. >> Cuz I I've been I've been watching it and uh man, I'm like hooked. I'm like, this is so fascinating, but I think I'm fascinated because I'm like, I could absolutely see how real this could be. >> Mhm. >> Um like, but what I've seen is um because I've been so fascinated on the the topic of influence just for such long time and um what I've seen from that show is they'll get whatever they want because agencies like CIA have access to I mean
[07:47] anything they can get like they can hack in the phones, they can spy on all this stuff. So >> Anything your heart desires. >> So so when it comes down to getting you to do something, what commonly comes up is essentially blackmail. They're like, "Well, we have pictures of you going to this brothel. You sure you don't want to give us this or we're going to go to this?" And what So this is that's for TV. >> Mhm. That's for TV. >> Interesting, I feel like Santa's been um I just found out Santa's not real. >> Yeah, sorry. [laughter] You know, when I first joined, one of my instructors told told me that, you know,
[08:17] back in the in the day, in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, yes, they used to try that. But he told me that one time one of his superiors, I guess back in the back in the 70s, I suppose, there was this cleric and they set him up with a prostitute and they took pictures through, you know, a pinhole with a a pinhole camera of him, you know, humping the prostitute. And then they went to him and they said, "We want X Y Z information." And they laid out all
[08:49] these pictures of him with the prostitute and he said, "Ooh, I'll take that in an 8 by 10. And give me two of those in 5 by 7. And how about some wallet sizes for these?" He's like, "Get the [ __ ] out of here." And they just made a policy decision that this doesn't work. These these just naked threats, no pun intended, they they don't work. And so they just sort of revamped the way approaches were made. >> Mhm. How how did it not work? Cuz I I would imagine
[09:20] Well, I mean, every everyone's just got their life, right? >> Look at it this way. Look at it this way. You get caught with a prostitute. You have two choices. You can confess to your wife, >> Mhm. >> maybe jeopardize your marriage, maybe get a slap in the face. Or you can commit treason and risk execution. So which one are you going to pick? >> Yeah, I guess that makes sense. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, so when everything's up against I mean, that's the worst case is what you're asking them to do. >> Yeah. >> Uh, okay. So,
[09:51] so what you're sort of saying it's it's it's a complete other approach. It's it's find someone from the get-go who could possibly be recruitable, develop a strong bond, strong communication, strong Sorry. Strong relationship with them. Get them to the point where they like you enough where they'll just want to do you a favor. >> Mhm. Look at it this way, too. The CIA, any intelligence service, has this thing called the asset acquisition cycle. It's spot, assess, develop, recruit. So, I go to some diplomatic cocktail party.
[10:22] And and I spot you. And I say, "Hi, I'm John. What's your name?" We exchange business cards. You work for the Canadian Embassy? Nice to meet you. And I walk on to the next guy. You work for the Russian Embassy? Or the Chinese? Or the Cuban? Okay, I'm going to maybe invite you to lunch. So, I've spotted you. I've assessed your access to information that I might that I might want. And then, I begin the development phase. This is the longest phase. It can go months, it can go
[10:53] years in some cases. But, in that development phase, I'm going to try to assess if you have any vulnerabilities. And I said it as I said a few minutes ago, a vulnerability doesn't have to be a bad thing. A vulnerability might mean you just really, really love your kids. And you want the best for your kids. And maybe the best means going to UCLA or Harvard. Right? And your kid's not going to get into Harvard. I can get your kid into Harvard. And
[11:24] I'll pay for it. So, I'm developing you. Do you like to drink? Do you cheat on your wife? You know, maybe you and I go out drinking or we go to Vegas for the weekend or we figure something out, something that you really like to do. And I can observe you over that period and look for that hook. >> Mhm. >> Now, 95 In 95% of cases and studies internal studies have been done about this at the agency, 95% of the cases the
[11:56] hook is money. Right? You want money. I have money. I'll give the I'll give you the money if you give me the information. It's just a contractual arrangement. Very simple. But the other 5% is kind of interesting. Um in some cases it's excitement. You know, you've watched Homeland, you've seen the James Bond movies. You want a piece of that excitement, that adrenaline rush of being clandestine. You'd be surprised the people who are just doing it for the rush. >> Yeah. >> And then the others are
[12:28] um ideology. You really, really love the United States. And you want to do it just to be helpful to the United States or revenge. You do it because you got passed over for promotion and by God you're going to screw your boss by volunteering to the Americans. But 95% of the time it's simply cash for information. >> Is this where you have a picture of them on the board and you're mapping out everything about them? Is this like where where
[12:58] where you're doing like analysis on someone and trying to really figure out like pro So, profiling somebody? >> Yes. >> So >> That's exactly what we do. >> Can you walk us through this? So, is I'm imagining this would be Well, walk me through actually profiling someone because this is so fascinating. >> So, every year the CIA and every intelligence service begins the year with something called an operating directive. What is it that we want to collect this year? What is it that's going to provide the most help to the the formation, the formulation of American foreign policy.
[13:29] Okay, so we're interested in China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, terrorism, proliferation, whatever. And you rank these things, right? There's tier zero, which means, you know, war is imminent. Tier one is going to be China, Russia, Iran. Tier two might be, I'm making this up, Cuba, who knows, Venezuela, whatever. Down to tier five, which is
[14:00] nobody cares about it, you know, EU grain harvests, nobody cares. So, um, with this in mind, you know, as you go out to this cocktail party, what the operating directive is, you know what you need to collect on. So, I go to a I go to a cocktail party and I say hi to you and you say hi to me and we shake hands and I hand you my card, I'm John Kiriakou from the American Embassy. You say, "Oh, I work at the at the port."
[14:30] I don't care about the port. But I say, "Oh my gosh, that sounds so interesting. What do you do at the port? Oh, I always love ports. It's always so exciting, ships coming in, going out, all over the world, very international." I'm just making all this up to engage you. And you say that there's a ship coming in from wherever and it has a shipment of this chemical. I'm not a chemist. I don't know what that means. But when I go back to the embassy, I'm going to say, "I met this guy. He
[15:01] appears to be this age. He's this tall. He's, you know, this weight. He has brown eyes. He has brown hair and he works at the port. Here's his name. Here's his title. Please let me know if you have anything in the files, which they likely will not." And I say, "He mentioned that there's a ship coming in and it has this chemical on it." And then they come back to me and say, "That's the precursor chemical for cocaine." So I say, "Aha, that I'm interested in." So I call you and I say, "Hey, it was so
[15:33] great meeting you the other day. I would hope that you would allow me to take you to dinner." And nine times out of 10 you're going to say yes. And we get together for dinner. And I tell you how much I enjoyed our conversation. And this thing at the port is so fascinating. What do you like to do in your spare time? And you tell me something that you're interested in. I sort of gauge where you would like to see this relationship go. Um maybe you mention, "Ah, I've been at the port 10 years. I
[16:04] haven't been promoted in 10 years." Okay, that's important information for me. Um so I look for ways that I can help you. Maybe you would love love love to go to the United States on vacation. No problem. I can have the visa ready in the morning. Um maybe, like I said, your wife is sick or your child is sick or your child's graduating from high school, wants to go to school in the States. Or, you know, you've your car broke down. I mean, this happened to me once. Like my car broke
[16:35] down. I've had this car for 10 years. I have literally no way to get to work. I'm happy to buy you a car if you give me an hour in your code room. So you try to quickly assess what it is this guy wants or needs and what information he might have access to that he'd be willing to give up. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So you look So you're building rapport. There There's so many avenues I want to get down. I like to sort of go like linear through
[17:05] our thing. So like let's say um so you're at a cocktail party. You're at a networking event. You find somebody you're talking. How do you cuz even for myself, I'm one of those extroverts introverts. I'm extrovert when I want to be. >> Yes. >> And I can quickly my battery just I can be at a thing I'll be like I'm bored. Get me out. I can mean I can literally be in a conversation with someone know that I should really talk to these people but my face just says like [ __ ] off. >> Mhm. >> How how do you first
[17:37] especially for the introverts who are watching this, how do you first get yourself into a position where you can be somewhat interested even though your brain's kind of saying like I'm I just don't want I just don't want to talk to these people. >> What's up legend? Real quick, you're listening to this podcast clearly because you're a big dreamer, you're a big thinker and you want to achieve massive freaking things on this planet. What I know from my experience and interviewing so many successful people, one of the fastest ways to achieve what it is you want is to be in the environment with those who are like you and learning from people and where you want to get to. And that's why every single year I run an event called
[20:11] time, and you're going to be in different phases of that relationship at any given time. Maybe I just met you last night at a cocktail party, but this other guy I met 3 weeks ago, and we're already into the relationship, and there's another guy I met 6 months ago, and he and his wife are having dinner with my wife and me, you know, in some little out-of-the-way place so I can make him feel at ease. So, you're going to be at different phases all at the same time, and trying to keep
[20:42] five, six, eight people straight in your mind. And then, what you do to to make that easier is I wouldn't even wait for the next day to write this up and send it to headquarters. I would go right from the dinner through it through a surveillance detection route back to the embassy, and I would write it up that night. And it didn't matter if I needed to be at the embassy until 1:00 in the morning. I was going to make sure that this information got back ASAP, so I didn't miss any of it.
[21:15] >> Mhm. Okay. So, so walk me through this this mice framework then. So, cuz what I've sort of got so far is number one, be extroverted sometimes even if you've got to act it. >> Yep. >> Uh network with as many people, find who you're actually interested to pursue another conversation. Develop a relationship, but what you're really looking for is where is a gap? Where is a vulnerability they have? What is something that they really need? Cuz maybe they want it for pleasure or maybe they want it to avoid suffering. Um so, for the listeners, walk us through what does mice stand for?
[21:46] And how why why do you use that? >> mice is not a CIA acronym. >> Okay. >> That's just been kind of made up by the public that's interested in this kind of thing. >> Interesting. >> Um like I said, you can use wow, so many different tools to recruit somebody. With M, money uh being the most important one. Now, if you've if you're a guy who's got, you know, access to the local Communist Party, that's moderately interesting to me.
[22:17] It's not terribly important. That might be worth a couple thousand bucks a month. If you're going to give me Osama bin Laden's location, that's going to be worth 25 million. And I'm happy to give it to you in gold, in diamonds, uh in cash. Uh we can set up a bank account for you. We can give it to you in land, in any country that you want to to go to. We can work something out. But, it's
[22:49] going to be different for every single person. It's going to be tailored. Um it's not unheard of for somebody to want the money, let's say, in diamonds. And so, we've got a relationship with a guy who has access to the diamonds. I'm going to get, you know, 30 different diamonds in all different sizes and colors and clarity and shape. And I'm going to give you the diamonds. And
[23:19] then, if you need to cash in a diamond, here's a phone number that you call, and you ask for Mike. And the person's going to say that Mike's not in right now. May I take a message? And you say, "Yeah, tell him that uh his Uncle Chuck uh says hello, and he hopes to see him at Christmas." And that means meet me in 24 hours at the coffee shop at such and such a you know, an intersection. And
[23:50] an officer will show up with an envelope of cash. You cash in one of your diamonds. And then, we just wait for the next encounter. >> Mhm. So, I'm I'm trying to imagine So, I guess everyone's different. Would Would it be right by saying cuz I'm shocked that money is the number one. >> Are you? >> But I'm also not. Because >> Don't be. >> As I was thinking cuz I I >> People are greedy bastards. >> Then, am I right by saying that cuz probably the people CIA would be recruiting are probably not wealthy people.
[24:21] >> Correct. They're mostly government employees. >> Yeah. So, they're all quite underpaid. So, they would take cash. >> Sure. >> Yeah. So, what what about for someone who And I was actually also thinking this. I'm like, am I motivated by my money? I I think to some degree. And what I was what I was thinking is it would it would come down to how much and in which time frame. Cuz that's that's how like the mind works. Because if somebody said, "I'll give you a million dollars for doing this."
[24:52] If I get a million dollars straight away, that's exciting. But if I got a million dollars spread out over a year or something like that. I'd be like, "Ah, I mean, I could make that a you know you know what I mean? So >> But if you're a government employee >> Yeah. >> in some third world country >> Money's everything. >> making 10 or 12,000 dollars a year. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And I'm offering you 50,000 like right now. 50,000 is not a lot of money for the CIA, but it's life-changing for you. >> Mhm. >> If you're, you know, some Afghan
[25:24] functionary in the government or, you know, from whatever country it's life-changing. >> Mhm. >> You can pay off your entire family's debts. You can buy a piece of land. >> Yeah. So what are the other ones then? So if you if you're trying to scope somebody out, you're like, "That person money's not going to sway them." What would be my other approach? >> Well, like I said, here early on in the relationship, you're trying to determine what the vulnerability is. Oftentimes, at least in the course of my career, it was medical care.
[25:55] I had a guy volunteer once because his wife had breast cancer. >> Mhm. >> And this was a we were living in a third world country and the medical care was substandard. And this guy really loved his wife. And he's like, "Can you help her?" Like, "Yeah, of course I can. We'll get her to the Mayo Clinic and uh and she'll have the best cancer treatment that's available anywhere." And that's what we did.
[26:27] >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> I've heard I've heard people talk about So you even mentioned before. So ideology >> Mhm. >> um Coercion, I think people talk about, but you kind of ruled that one out. So you're saying it's completely cuz I was thinking about I'm like I I I think the only time you'd ever really use this if you never wanted to ever have that person ever like you ever again. >> Or look at it this way. If somebody tried to use coercion against me, >> Mhm. >> I might say, "Okay, meet me at 3:00 in the morning at this intersection."
[26:59] And then I'd blow his brains out. Because if he's going to try to ruin my life and put my life and my freedom in jeopardy, he's going to die. >> Mhm. So, talk to me about ideology then. I mean, sorry, I ideology and the the ego. Like how how are you I I I guess I'm trying to just sort of dissect like if I'm I'm going to sit down and read somebody. I I guess you you may have one approach cuz you said before, I don't have a plan B or a C. So, you're kind of going in asking someone of something, but you must be so certain that that is going to
[27:29] work on them. >> Well, yes, but let me explain. So, there there is such a thing called a cold pitch. Cold pitches almost never ever work. That is, I knock on your door, I say, "I'm Bob from the CIA and I know who you are and I need this information from you." That never works. First of all, maybe I'm not Bob from the CIA, maybe I'm Igor from the KGB.
[27:59] Or maybe I'm from your own police force and you're trying to entrap me. And so, usually people run screaming from the room, they call the cops, they call their service, you get expelled, it's a big big kerfuffle. So, cold pitches don't work. So, normally, you work on a person for long enough that you know they're going to say yes to the pitch. And you know exactly what
[28:31] it is that they're going to want from you. Right? You never go in unprepared. I I had a I had a station chief once tell me that in the in the 25 plus years he was at the CIA, he never had a target say no. And I can tell you in my 15 years, I never had a target say no. Never. Because if they say no, you're in a heap of trouble. You're probably going to get expelled from that country. Because if they say no to you, they're probably going to report you to their version of the FBI.
[29:01] And then it's going to be an international incident. So you have to be 100% sure that they're just as into this as you are. And this is going to be a mutually beneficial relationship. >> What are the fastest ways to deepen rapport and trust with someone? Cuz this is the thing that there's some people I can connect with and like instantly hit it off. And I think it just comes down to if we are naturally a similar personality type.
[29:32] And there's some people I'm trying to connect with and I'm like, this is just so they're just such a odd personality or they're nothing like me and I can feel this it's just like I'm I can't go anywhere with this person. And obviously with especially podcasting, there's a bunch of guests that I meet and I'm like, I stay really good friends with them. There's a few guests I meet and I'm like, ah just I wouldn't talk to them outside the episode. Um is there a way around that internally? >> Yeah. >> Again, you are an actor. >> Mhm.
[30:02] >> You have to be an actor. And so even if you're not connecting with somebody, by God you better make it look like you're connecting with them. I I've told this story before where I was instructed to target a foreign diplomat. And so I did some light surveillance on him and I learned that he would go to the same coffee shop every day, 7 days a week. 9:00 in the morning he's at the coffee shop. So one Saturday I would went to his coffee shop and I bumped into him and I was like, "Oh my gosh, what a
[30:33] small world. Hey, how are you? It's good to see you again." And um I asked him if I could sit with him. So I sat with him and we sat and had a conversation, and um drank our coffee. And it became clear to me that he in this conversation that he was gay. And he was deeply closeted. >> How did you discover that? >> I just had a gut feeling. And he he made a complaint in that conversation that he had been passed over for promotion.
[31:05] And he made it sound like even if he wasn't gay, his superiors believed he was gay. And I thought, "Well, they know him better than I do. So, if they think he's gay, he's probably gay." So, I reported back, "He's gay." And headquarters said, "We want you to pretend that you're gay." And so, I said, "Okay." So, I call him back. We end up going to dinner, then we go to
[31:37] lunch, then we go to dinner again, and then I got two tickets for a show, and we went to the show, and went out for sushi afterwards, and and this went on for months. And he he felt comfortable enough to complain to me about the the system in his foreign ministry, this the promotion system in his foreign ministry. I learned a lot. And I was reporting everything back to headquarters.
[32:07] >> This was in Pakistan? >> Oh, no, no. I I can't say where it was. >> So, it wasn't in Pakistan, no. So, um it got to the point where I've told this story before, and people have taken this to be a joke, and they've made memes and clips, and I'm speaking in a funny voice. It was It was very serious. He He invited me to dinner at his apartment one night. So, I went to his apartment, we had dinner, and then he leaned in to kiss me.
[32:38] And I wasn't I was momentarily distracted, and so instinctively I backed off like this. And he said, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I thought you were gay." And I was like, "Oh my god, I just screwed this up." And I said, "I am gay. I'm just not into hairy guys." >> [laughter] >> And he's like, "Oh, I'm okay. Okay." And I said, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I've led you on." He said, "No, no. I think you're great. I'm glad we're friends." I'm like, "Oh my god, I think you're great,
[33:09] too. But we're not going to be a a couple." And it was cool because he respected me. And in the end, he gave me everything that I asked for because he was upset that he kept getting passed over for promotion. And he did it out of a sense of revenge. But he trusted me enough to give it to me. >> Okay. And so my whole understanding with
[33:40] developing and building rapport, it's a lot of, you know, mirroring and matching and blah blah blah. Does it get any deeper than that of like developing How can I develop deeper trust to the point where someone's like, "I I just feel like I can tell you anything. I feel like I've known you for so long." >> Oh my god, you you read psychology books in your spare time. And the guy mentions offhandedly that he likes fishing, you go learn how to fish like well. Or he likes,
[34:10] uh, you know, cricket, you learn the intricacies of cricket. You have a favorite team. You can speak authoritatively about cricket and the history of cricket. Or Broadway or soccer or whatever he happens to be interested in, you immerse yourself in this. You know, [snorts] a couple a couple bosses I've had over the years have paid me some real compliments. One of them said, I was a brand new analyst. I'd been on the job like 6 months. And I was actually offended by this at first cuz I
[34:42] I misunderstood it. But my boss said, you know, you would be a really terrific case officer. And I was like, why? I'm not a good enough analyst? Are you insulting me? >> What's the difference between the two? >> An analyst sits in a cubicle and thinks the big thoughts and writes papers. >> And that's what you were doing most of? >> At at in the beginning of my career. >> Okay. >> Case officers recruiting spies to steal secrets. And so, he said, no, what I mean is you're extroverted, you're a nice guy, and people like to be around you, which
[35:14] had never even occurred to me. But it planted a seed in my mind that maybe I will try operations. Maybe I would be good at operations. And it turned out that I was good at operations. And then later in my career when I had proven myself as an effective operations officer I recruited a guy who was so sensitive that I couldn't meet him in the country that I recruited him in. And so headquarters said
[35:46] fly him back to Washington. You fly a different way back to Washington. And we'll meet him here. So we met him in a hotel here in Washington. And I invited my boss and a senior operations officer and the senior analyst to come to the hotel and just sit. And I mean, technically it was a debriefing, but what it really was was a get-to-know-you kind of session. And so he said the the source said
[36:18] uh you know, this is my first time in the United States and and I hope I have a couple of days built in because I'd like to go to New York and I've never, you know seen a Broadway show. I'd love to see a Broadway show. And I said, "Oh, listen, Aida just opened on Broadway." I had just read a review in the New York Times. "Aida just opened on Broadway. Elton John did the did all of the music. He scored it. And I forget who was the the lead actress and the New York Times raved about it." I said, "I'll get us tickets. We'll go to
[36:49] New York together." And he said, "Tell me about this sport you have here, this baseball. What is this?" I said, "Oh, we just got a team in Washington, the Washington Nationals. We're not very good, but it's but it's fun and we're going to play the Yankees and the Yankees are a legendary team. I'll get us tickets. We'll go after dinner." And there was something else that we talked about in that meeting. And afterwards, my boss came to me and he said, "I have never seen someone speak so authoritatively on such disparate issues
[37:21] as you did today. And then you did a substantive debriefing." And I said, "You know what it is? I love this job. That's what it is. I don't even feel like this is work. I couldn't wait to get to the office in the morning just to see what I had missed while I was sleeping." >> Mhm. >> And so, you either have it or you don't have it. And if you don't have it, cut your losses and go find something that's going to make you happy. >> If you were to have to recruit me now
[37:55] into doing something based off like you barely even know me or actually I don't know if you scoped me out or anything. Um what vulnerabilities do you see in me? What would be your angle? >> I'm not seeing any yet. You did mention that you um went skiing uh recently. And so, I would press you on that just to see where you've gone skiing, how talented you are at skiing. I'm actually not very good, but you know, if you're around, there are a lot of places we could go skiing. Have you ever been to Park City? Have you ever
[38:26] been to, you know, Steamboat Springs? There's a place in Vermont, and you know, even in Western Pennsylvania, they're getting a ton of snow. I would explore that. You mentioned that you were in Florida the other day. I love Florida. Spring training has begun. If you don't know anything about baseball, it'd be fun to fly to Tampa. And and check out some of the some of the spring training teams.
[38:56] I haven't detected a vulnerability, but I don't know you well enough yet. But, I would certainly explore that in subsequent conversations. >> So, vulnerability to me, the word is >> Yeah. >> kind of the connotation kind of feels like a weakness. >> Yes. It's It's >> But, it can be both is kind of what you're >> Exactly. That's a mistake to think of it just as a weakness. Think of it as an opening. >> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Cuz yeah, like what you were saying is um as soon as you mentioned the skiing or snowboarding, but like yeah, if you were to be like I mean, you like snowboarding? Oh my
[39:26] god, we're we're going to Aspen, and you could come. I'd be like >> Exactly. >> Get out. I'm in. >> And I'd call a couple of my colleagues, and I'd say, "Listen, I've got a guy I'm going to want to develop. He's a snowboarder. I don't snowboard. You guys do. I'm going to tell him we've got a we've got a thing going. We're going for the weekend. We happen to have this extra ticket. It's crazy. What a coincidence?" >> Mhm. >> And they'd be all in. >> Okay, this is very interesting. And how how could it relate back to cuz this is where I'm I'm trying to extract
[39:58] everything CIA related is super fascinating. And I try to extract it how can we use it practically in life. >> Mhm. >> CIA have access to unlimited amounts of money and all of these things. Anything you need like oh, we can get you into Harvard, blah blah blah. >> That's the key right there. >> The normal person doesn't have access to those things. >> That's right. >> So, how might someone else go about that? >> Sure, that's a good question. So, I have a friend who has never been in the CIA, has never expressed any interest in the CIA, but he has all the skills of a successful CIA officer.
[40:29] And where he has succeeded is as a fixer. So, he's in a senior corporate position now, consulting position. And if you are a Hollywood studio and you want to make a movie in Cuba and you can't. We have sanctions on Cuba. >> Mhm. >> But, there's a village in Colombia that looks just like Havana. So, he's going to do
[41:01] all the legwork and you're going to be able to make your movie in Colombia and make it look like Cuba. Or uh uh I'll give you a real-life example that he brought me in on. Um Sacha Baron Cohen wanted to do a movie called Bruno. And my friend was not a Middle East expert and I am. So, he brought me in. Can you advise Sacha Baron Cohen on how to make this movie Bruno? I said, of course. So,
[41:33] we have an initial meeting and Sacha says I want to film this section of the movie, this portion of the movie in the Middle East. And I said, great. I said the Libyans are begging us, this was under Gaddafi. The Libyans are begging us to film movies there. They'll give us, you know, tax-free, they'll pay all the expenses. He said, don't want to do it in Libya. He said, as a Jew, I'm I'm just afraid of going to Libya, I'm afraid I'll never make it out. I just don't even want to consider Libya.
[42:04] And I said, okay, we could do it in Morocco, but Morocco has very unique architecture. So, everybody's going to know that it's Morocco. He to make it look like, you know, Syria, Jordan, Israel. But, everybody's going to They're going to look at these mud these mud houses, they're going to say it's Morocco. It's Moroccan architecture. It's like, "No, can't do that." He said, "Let's do it in Jordan." And I said, "Yeah, but we could do it in Jordan, but we're going to have to bring the Jordanian intelligence service in on it because
[42:34] they're one of the best services in the world, and they'll be honest like white on rice." He said, "Nope. Can't break cover. Can't break character. Don't want to tell the Jordanians." >> was He's going in >> When When he's in character, he lives the character. >> Right. >> He's a comedic genius, and I don't use the word genius lightly. I I've only worked with a handful of people in my life that I would consider to be geniuses. He's a genius. So, I said, "That's a mistake."
[43:05] And I said, "Let's Let's try Syria. We could do it in Syria." This is before the [ __ ] hit the fan in Syria. >> imagine he'd be frightened cuz Bruno was He was the big He's very out there gay guy. >> Very out there gay guy. >> [laughter] >> And then so he's going into countries >> It didn't work out. >> Right. >> So, he said, "Oh, uh I'm going to go to Newport Beach tomorrow, and there's a Syrian consulate. I'll just go there." And I said, "No, no, no." I said, "Let me do what you're paying me to do.
[43:36] I'll talk to the Syrian ambassador, and we'll try to work this out." He calls me the next night. It was like midnight. My wife and I were up. I was reading a book, and the phone rings. I was like, "It's midnight. Who could be calling me at midnight?" And I look, and it's Sacha Baron Cohen. And um and he says, uh He has a very thick British accent. He says, "Uh John, I think I [ __ ] up, mate." And I said, "Oh, I said, "Don't tell me you went to the Syrian consulate at Newport Beach."
[44:06] And he said, "As soon as he walked through the door, the guy came from behind the glass partition and said, "I know who you are. I know what you do. You are not welcome in Syria." I said, "Dog gone it. All right." I said, "Let's Let's try the Jordanians." So, he said, "No. Let's just do it. We'll just go to Jordan and just do it." I said, "I think this is a serious mistake." So, what he wanted to do was he wanted to fly in bonafide terrorists. He He
[44:37] said in our first conversation, "Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah." And he wanted to show them pictures of men having like hardcore anal sex. And he wanted to ask them if this constituted torture and should these men be sent to Guantanamo. I said, "That is a terrible idea." I said, "First, just as a rule of thumb, you don't want to mess with the religious types. I said, they'll kill you. They'll kill your crew. They'll go on to the street and they'll kill people
[45:09] who remind them of you." And I said, "But, there are bonafide terrorists who have retired. They're communists and communism's not in anymore in Arab nationalism. So, I said, "These guys all live in Damascus. And we could We could fly them into Amman. But again, we're going to have to tell the Jordanians what we're doing." And he said, "No." I said, "Sacha, listen. If these bonafide terrorists are all
[45:41] flying to Jordan on the same day to come to your hotel room, they're going to come to the attention of the intelligence service." He said, "Won't do it." So, he and a cameraman flew out a day before I did. And they land in Amman. They get off the plane, and there's a guy standing there with a sign. And it says, "Sacha Baron Cohen." And he says to the cameraman,
[46:11] "John, get us a car." I didn't get him any car. I'm not a secretary. I'm script advisor. So, he says, "I'm Sacha Baron Cohen." They get in a car, big limousine. They're driving around. Finally, it occurs to him, "This is kind of odd." And he says to the driver, "Where are we going?" And the driver says, "The Royal Palace. His Majesty's a big fan." And he says these giant iron gates open
[46:43] up, they drive onto the palace grounds, and here is the king himself, and who is standing next to him but the director of the Jordanian Intelligence Service. So, they get out of the car, and the king says, "Sacha Baron Cohen, I'm your biggest fan." "Borat?" "I thought I was going to pee my pants," he says. "This is the director of the Jordanian Intelligence Service. Anything you need, you call him. Welcome to Jordan."
[47:14] I said, "I told you before you even landed, they knew what you were doing. They're that good." >> And >> [clears throat] >> so, your your friend put that connection together. >> Yes. >> So, you're saying so, he so, one way of adding big value to people is being a master connector. >> That's And that's it. And that's what he That's what he is. He's a master connector and a fixer. >> Mhm. >> Um uh Mission Impossible, you know, four, whatever it was, where Tom Cruise wants to do his own
[47:44] stunts on the outside of the Burj Khalifa, the biggest building in the world. You can't do that unless you're my friend who knows all the royal families of the United Arab Emirates and can get the royal family of Dubai to allow Tom Cruise to be on the outside of the 105th floor of the Burj Khalifa. Yeah. >> Cool. I guess it really pays to network, eh? >> It's all about It's all about the network. >> Mhm. You're You're making me want to take acting classes to become that 10% more extroverted.
[48:15] >> I'll tell you I'll tell you something funny. So, last July, uh a a dear friend of mine called me. And [snorts] he's a Hollywood guy. And he said, "Listen, I wrote a movie, and you know, this is what the movie's about. And I want you to be in my movie. I want you to act in the movie." And I said, "Oh, thank you. No. Not interested." I said, "Thank you for thinking of me. I've never acted before. I'll be stiff and unconvincing, and I'm going to wreck your movie." And he said,
[48:45] "I thought of that. And I thought, 'You know what? Every day of your CIA career, you acted. >> Mhm. >> And you pretended to be somebody that you weren't.'" I said, "Well, that's true, actually." And he said, "I actually wrote the the role for you." I said, "Well, who else is in the movie?" And he names all these people, and they're all professional actors. And I said,
[49:15] "All right. I'll do it." He sends me the script. I read the script. It's really good. Like I was I was surprised at how good it was. To the point where I introduced him to people that I know on Broadway, cuz I'm kind of a networking person, too. And I said, "This movie takes place all on one scene. It would make a fantastic off-Broadway show." So, I fly to Mexico for the entire month of October.
[49:47] And all these actors fly in, and we spend a month making this movie. And in the end I get home and I I come home to my Screen Actors Guild membership card. I'm now a professional Hollywood actor. >> There we go. >> And um I saw the first cut of the movie 2 weeks ago and it's fantastic. >> tell me what it's called? >> It's called uh Below World's End. >> Below World's End.
[50:17] >> It's going to come out in uh in the spring. >> Okay, cool. >> Yeah. >> Cool. >> So you know, at the CIA the culture is such that they kind of teach you that this job is so specific there's nothing else that you can do. And that's just simply not true. There's a lot you can do. >> That's what I'm learning. I've I've I didn't even know what the word espionage meant probably 2 years ago. Um and I've just been so fascinated on it all because there's just it's it's
[50:48] when I look at it cuz I I teach a lot of just leadership. Like the whole whole purpose of my company is growing leaders. And when you talk about acting and all this it's all just flexibility behavior. It's like how can you be so comfortable being a gay guy and then come back home and be a completely different person. It's like that flexibility behavior to to >> Yeah. >> to change your personality to adapt to it is just so fascinating. >> Well, some people would say including CIA psychiatrists that this is an example of sociopathic tendencies. >> That's what I was going to say to you
[51:18] actually. Um what I've heard that sociopaths they're the ones who they really aren't picked. But my nails on you >> Not necessarily. >> You're not that sociopathic. >> I'm not. I mean, it's clear. >> It's probably why you >> That's why I blew the whistle cuz I'm not a sociopath. The CIA actively seeks to hire people with sociopathic tendencies. >> So meaning they can dissociate from feelings. >> Because they're the good guys. At least that's what we convince ourselves of.
[51:49] With that said, sociopaths, of course, will slip through the the cracks because they can blow right through a polygraph exam and not react to it in any way. That's That can be dangerous because usually it's those sociopaths, just like in the corporate world, who work their way to the top of the of the ladder on the backs of the people around them. >> Mhm. >> But if you believe that you are the good guy and you're doing this for patriotic
[52:20] reasons and you can flip that switch on and off on your personality and you're a chameleon where you can adapt to these different situations you're going to have a successful career in espionage. >> Mhm. Um [clears throat] I want to talk about Epstein. >> Mhm. >> Um as an Australian, I mean, and also just just in the world of gossip, I'm just not really involved. I I I see a lot of
[52:50] stuff and I don't have really strong opinions on anything. Um but I obviously see all this Epstein stuff coming out. Um my other friend, Andrew Bustamante, he's also had a similar opinion to you. So, you you believe Epstein was a spy for a Mossad. >> I do. Strongly. >> What gives you that impression that you're so certain on that? >> Oh, it's a lot There's There's a lot of circumstantial evidence. First of all, Ghislaine Maxwell's father was a prolific Mossad spy.
[53:22] Um that's >> out there. >> That's a historic fact. Yes, 100%. Um it stands to reason that she would have introduced him to the Mossad or even her father would have introduced Epstein to Mossad. We don't have any idea where Epstein's money came from. This is the guy who never went to college. And yet he becomes the tax advisor to the richest man in Ohio and is referred by the Rothschild family.
[53:52] How in the world did that happen? That's not normal. Secondly, one of the things that you're taught early on in your CIA career would be the use of access agents. We all want to recruit the prime minister. Okay? We're not going to recruit the prime minister. I don't care how good you are, how smart you are, how friendly you are. You're not going to recruit the prime minister. See, you do the next best thing. You recruit the guy who has access to the
[54:24] prime minister. If you want to recruit Bill Clinton or Prince Andrew or Bill Gates or Ehud Barak. Not not Ehud Barak. That's an unusual example. I think he was just a pedophile. Um you're not going to recruit Bill Clinton and then Bill Gates and Prince Andrew. So, you recruit a guy who can elicit information from them. And then remember, the Israelis do use coercion. >> Mhm. >> Then you wire every room
[54:55] including the bathrooms for both audio and video. Just in case you need to smash somebody over the head like Peter Mandelson. >> Who's that? >> The British ambassador to Washington. >> Oh, okay. >> The former British ambassador. Now he's likely going to be charged with serious crimes. >> Um I'm not aware of this. This is a recent thing that's just come out? >> Uh Epstein. >> Oh, okay. >> Over the last three, four weeks. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a long story. I don't think we have time, but
[55:27] >> But um yeah, you you recruit the next best guy. >> So, so do you think Epstein was a Mossad agent or recruited as an asset from Mossad? >> recruited as an asset. >> Okay. So, then makes me think from your judgment, what do you think would have got him recruited? >> Money. >> The lifestyle. >> Money. >> Hey, we're going to make you the richest guy. >> Yeah. Sure. >> do some [ __ ] >> Private island, the widest townhouse in Manhattan. >> I mean, that's pretty good, hey? >> Yeah. >> Um so, my opinion on this is
[56:00] when people ask me um it's the exact same playbook they used with Eli Cohen. Isn't it? So, >> On a on a bigger on a bigger scale. >> Yeah. So, I'm like, so you look at So, Eli Cohen, for those not aware, go and watch The Spy on Netflix with your friend in it, Sacha Baron Cohen, which is a very very serious role. That's fantastic. >> story. >> good. >> Yeah. >> Um but, you know, that was I forget the year that happened, but there was I don't know, 50, 60, 70, something like that, right? >> like 1958
[56:31] to 1966. >> [clears throat] >> Same playbook. We're going to put you in another country. We're going to make you an extremely wealthy businessman. Go throw lavish parties. Here's as much money as you need. Get connections everywhere. And then you got to feed it back all day long. >> But, he did it for patriotic reasons. >> Yes. >> He did it. He volunteered repeatedly. But, he was just a barber. That was his his job. When he first volunteered to the Mossad, they were like, "What do you do?" He said, "I'm a barber,
[57:01] but I speak Arabic, like really good Arabic." And they said, "Yeah, thanks. We're not interested in recruiting barbers." And then he kept volunteering. And finally, they said, "All right, can you speak in a Syrian accent?" And he could. Fluent, flawless Syrian Arabic. And they said, "Okay, we're going to send you to Damascus. We're going to give you money. You're a businessman. Have big lavish parties and invite everybody." >> Mhm. >> It got to the point where he was going to imminently be named
[57:34] deputy defense minister of Syria. >> Wow. >> And here he's an Israeli citizen and an undercover like deep cover Mossad agent. And he made one single mistake. The way he was reporting back to Mossad was through something called a burst transmission. So, what you do is you record all your information and they they give you a radio that's usually built I mean back in the day it would be built into a piece of furniture like a dresser.
[58:04] So, you record everything into the dresser, you hit a button, and it sends out a burst that lasts for a second. And it just sends all the information back to your handlers. It just so happens that there was a KGB officer in Damascus who said, "You know, this guy is just a little too slick. There's something wrong about him." And they were driving around his neighborhood with a listening device and they detected the burst. And then they went back to the Syrians
[58:34] and they said, "He's a spy and it's probably for the Israelis." And they executed him. They hung him >> Publicly, yeah. >> in a public square. >> But but it's the it's the same they they run a very similar playbook, right? With that with the >> Very much so. >> Epstein thing. It's like it's >> And then you just work your way higher and higher and higher in society. >> What what I don't get is um how do you think he persuaded or influenced all of these people on his island to do all this [ __ ] up [ __ ] >> Through his Well, no.
[59:06] >> Or do you think they just Like cuz my >> that they're perverts. >> think all of them are? >> No. >> Or or do you think maybe like cuz here's where I'd like I I would see it it could be a slippery slope. You're out there, 100 people, Bill Gates there, all these famous celebrities. I think the chance of some of them being sickos, high chance. All of them being sickos? >> No. >> That's not That's improbable. >> was on the Piers Morgan show the other day with David Boies. David Boies is one of the most important criminal defense
[59:36] attorneys in America. Represents Hillary Clinton, represented Virginia Giuffre. And he said that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of emails between Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton, between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump, and there is zero evidence that either Bill Clinton or Donald Trump committed a crime. So, not not all of them are perverts. Not all of them implicated
[1:00:06] themselves. Most of them did. But not all of them. So, you know, we learned a lot about the likes of Prince Andrew and, you know, Sarah Ferguson and Peter Mandelson and Alan Dershowitz and other like household names in the United States and the UK. Most of it was hideous. Most of them won't be prosecuted for crimes because the statute of limitations has expired.
[1:00:37] But at least we now know what was going on at that island or in his giant mansion in Manhattan. >> Do you think that was Do you think Epstein himself was a sicko or that was perhaps something that was >> Oh, no, no. I think that as soon as they realized what his real vulnerabilities were, his vulnerabilities were an absolute love of money and pedophilia. >> So, you you Do you think Mossad would have um encourage that then or helped
[1:01:07] >> Oh, I think it's obvious that they did. >> So, you're saying they >> they set him up. >> helped get underage kids to his island? >> Oh, of course. Absolutely. >> So, they have no morals. >> Zero. >> Is that Mossad or is that an intelligence agency thing? >> You know, I think for the most part, most intelligence agencies have zero morals. I think that most intelligence agencies also will draw the line somewhere. Like with child sex, for example. That would never happen at the CIA or at any other intelligence service that I'm
[1:01:38] aware of. And I think the Israelis were comfortable with it. >> Do you think he actually killed himself? >> Yes. >> Do you So he's Have you seen these photos popping around of him walking the streets in Israel? >> Yeah. >> The problem is I can't believe anything online anymore. >> No. I mean, they're clearly AI-generated photos. And I saw somebody talking the other day saying that they were able to identify it as having been created by Gemini AI. >> Why do you think he killed himself and he wasn't killed? >> Oh, >> If he had all of these people
[1:02:09] blackmailed. >> For a for a lot of reasons. First of all, his life was done. He was done. He was never going to see the light of day ever again. So, do you want to spend the next 40 years in a dank prison? Cuz American prisons are like third-world prisons. >> Mhm. >> Um and I don't think he had the courage to go through life for the next 40 years in a in a maximum-security prison. Number one. Uh number two, I want to address
[1:02:40] the reasons that people cite supporting their belief that he didn't kill himself. Um number one, the guards all have their heads up their asses. The only qualifications to be a prison guard in the United States are you have to have the equivalent of a high school diploma. You don't even have to have the high school diploma, just the equivalent of the high school diploma. And no felony convictions. Number two,
[1:03:12] the cameras never work in any prison. >> Really? >> They never work. >> Why? >> When I was in prison, because everybody has their heads up their asses working in these prisons. These are retards working in these prisons. And so, you know, they're supposed to walk around every 15 minutes, make sure everything's okay. Eight minutes walk around every eight minutes if somebody's on suicide watch. These guys they're either, you know, masturbating in the guard booth >> The guards?
[1:03:43] >> Yeah. Or they're sound asleep in the guard booth. Or they're looking at porn you know, on the computer. They're not walking around doing their rounds. And there's nobody's going to tell them to get up and go do their rounds. That's the culture. They're morons. These are the dregs of society that are prison guards. Number one. Number two, the cameras never work. My job in prison was to be a janitor in the chapel. And every time there was a religious service scheduled I would have to go
[1:04:13] into the chapel and break up all these guys having sex with one another. Why would they be having sex in the chapel? Because the cameras didn't work. And they knew they wouldn't be interrupted in there. Then people say, "Oh, if you look closely at the video, there's a little blip and the camera Yeah. Cuz the cameras reset themselves every night at midnight. And they record over the previous day's recording. So, it's not like you stumbled onto some
[1:04:44] incredible revelation that, you know, somebody broke in hacked into the camera system. No. >> Mhm. >> Every camera that works resets itself. >> I'm I'm fascinated about your experience in prison. So, you you're 15 years in CIA. Um you were one of the you were leading on to bring down one of the biggest terrorists. I forget his name. >> Abu Zubaydah. >> One of the biggest guys. So, you've been in like, I mean, probably the most unimaginable place on Earth having the most strangest, darkest
[1:05:14] conversations. How did you use all these skills when you first got to prison? What were your first >> Oh, I wrote a book about it. >> Okay. What were What were your first like 7 days like? How did you scope people out? What were you assessing? What >> Oh. I I said to myself on day one, "You're trained for this. >> Uh-huh. >> You've lived in far worse places than Loretto, Pennsylvania. You're going to end up running the prison." And so, I wrote a book about this that that won two literary awards. >> What's your book called? >> It's called Doing Time Like a Spy: How
[1:05:44] the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. >> Cool. >> And I I outlined 20 life lessons that the CIA taught me and how I applied those life lessons to prison life. And the first thing you do is you make strategic alliances. So, those alliances were with the neo-Nazis, with uh the Italians, with the Mexican drug cartels, and with the um Nation of Islam, the the black Muslims. >> You made friends with all of them?
[1:06:15] >> Every one of them. >> Do they not hate each other? Or is that not allowed? >> hated each other. Like, to the point where it was potentially deadly. >> So, would they not not like you because you're friends with all of them? >> I was an independent operator. I didn't answer to anybody. >> Did you get people try to come and fight you, persuade you? >> Never. Never. >> know you were inside? >> They all knew. Word got around. >> So, they just probably wouldn't try to
[1:06:45] [ __ ] with you. >> Nobody did. A couple of times people did, and they paid dearly for it. >> What did you do to them? >> Well, one of the rules in my book is always let others do your dirty work. I'll give you an example. There was a serial killer in my housing unit. For reasons that I will never understand, he took a liking to me. And he was constantly seeking my approval. So,
[1:07:15] like he would say things like, "Hey John, I saved you a seat in the TV room for the football game." I'd say, "Thanks, Truck." We called him Truck because he was a long-distance truck driver, and he was murdering prostitutes along his truck route. "John, hey, there's a new uh classic rock station, 16 10 a.m." "Thanks, Truck." Well, there was another guy in the prison we used to call Cat in the Hat because he had an oddly elongated head, and he looked like the Cat in the
[1:07:47] Hat. So, he wanted to move into my my cell. And we had a rule in our cell, no pedophiles, right? So, I said, "Are you a pedophile?" He said, "No." I said, "What's your crime?" He said, "Murder for hire." I said, "I'm not sure I like that much better than pedophiles. What were the circumstances?" And he said, "Oh, I was $100,000 in debt, and I took out an insurance policy on my business partner, and I hired a hitman to kill my business partner so I could cash in the
[1:08:18] I said, "Well, that's [ __ ] up. I don't want you sleeping next to me, you know, in in the cell." He was angry. One day >> Cuz you didn't let him in. >> I didn't let him in. One day, CNN came to the prison to interview me, and I got called down to the to the lieutenant's office because the CNN crew had come to the prison. So, they say, "Kyriacou, lieutenant's office." Well, usually people called to the lieutenant's office are being called down to rat
[1:08:48] and to inform on other people. But, everybody knew CNN was coming to interview me that day. Anyway, I'm sitting next to Truck in the in the TV room. Cat in the Hat is standing not 3 ft away from me, but he doesn't realize I'm sitting directly behind him. And he says to a guy next to him, "Did you hear Kiriako got called down to the lieutenant's office? He says that guy's a [ __ ] rat. He went down there to rat us all out." And I didn't react in any way, and Truck said, "Did you hear that [ __ ] guy?
[1:09:21] He just called you a rat." And I said, "An hour ago, I heard him call you a pedophile." >> [laughter] >> Which I'd completely made up. Without saying a word, Truck got up and beat him to within an inch of his life. He was in the hospital for 6 weeks. Truck got 5 years added to his sentence, which was 40 years.
[1:09:53] And they sent him to a higher security prison. Well, I made sure that Cat in the Hat heard why he had gotten such a beating. And when he came back from the hospital after 6 weeks, he came up to me and he said, with his head down, "I'm so sorry I called you a rat. I should never have said anything. I apologize." And I said, "I'm going to tell you one thing and then I'm never going to say anything again.
[1:10:24] If I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead. Understand?" And he said, "Yes." So, nobody Nobody [ __ ] [laughter] with me in prison. >> Uh Uh so, I want to get your book. I didn't know you had That that's that's amazing. You don't have any hard copies around there? >> but I'll tell you what, it's done so well that Simon and Schuster just came out with a second edition.
[1:10:54] >> Oh, amazing. I'm going to get my hands on it. Um So, how how can Cuz as you're saying all that, the number one thing I'm feeling in my body is how much confidence you have to go into those situations. And I imagine a lot of people watching this could apply that to their life. Like maybe they're just starting a new job or they're I don't know, new friend group or whatever it might be and they're in a situation where they're like, I feel like uncomfortable here. Yes. What what's the first kind of go-to to actually come
[1:11:25] back >> Have confidence in yourself. I worked with a guy. When I left the agency, this guy came up to me, who I liked. He was kind of an assistant. He wasn't an ops officer, but he he shook my hand. He said, "I'm going to miss you. It's been fun working with you." I said, "Oh, you're great. I'm going to miss you, too." Genuinely good guy. And he said, "I want to tell you how much I admire you." And I said, "Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you to say." He said, "I admire you because out of everybody I've met here, you're the only one who's not afraid of anybody." And I said, "Yeah, you know what?" I
[1:11:57] said, "I'm not. I'm not afraid of anybody. And I don't really know why that is." When I got back from Pakistan, even my mother said to me, "Were you afraid like breaking down these doors and grabbing these Al-Qaeda people?" And I said, "No. I said, you know, I think it's because I was so busy that I just didn't have time to really process the emotion of fear. I just didn't think about it. But then in retrospect,
[1:12:28] I don't know. Maybe there's just some switch in my brain that never activated a sense of fear. I I don't really have an explanation for it. >> So, even in the beginning, your your first job or anything like that, there was never a sense of "Shit, this could go wrong." >> No. I have been intimidated a couple of times. >> On the job? >> Yeah, like I'd been on the job 8 months. August 2nd, 1990. I get to the office. Iraq has just
[1:13:00] invaded Kuwait. I get to the office early and my boss says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to the White House." I'd never been to the White House before. We get in a car, drive to the White House. A Marine escorts us into the Oval Office. It's the President, the Vice President, the National Security Advisor, the CIA Director, my boss and me. >> Who was the president then? >> George H.W. Bush. We all sit down and the President says, "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at
[1:13:31] me. I was 25 years old. And I'm looking at him like And then it took me a second like, "Oh. Oh. Uh yes. Well, Mr. President, as you know, Iraqi troops crossed the border at 2:00 this morning. They've taken the whole of Kuwait. The royal family has fled to Saudi Arabia. Et cetera, et cetera. I was intimidated. I'd never met a president before. You know? And not only am I meeting the President and the Vice President and the CIA Director and the National Security
[1:14:02] Advisor, but they're asking for my advice on issues of war and peace. I'm 25 years old. So, that was intimidating. >> But do you think do you think your confidence comes from cuz I mean, when you become in the CIA, you would have spent time training at the farm. >> Sure. >> Do you think after that, you would have come out there being like, "I'm one of the most trained [ __ ] people across the board on multiple different facets?" >> Yes. >> And then you go into say somewhere like prison, you're like, "There's not one person here
[1:14:33] >> Yes. >> who's as smart as equipped as me." >> You you've heard of imposter syndrome. Yeah. I never experienced that. >> Mhm. >> No. No. I thought, well, I'm as smart as these guys. >> That's very fascinating. So, one of um one Do you know Chase Hughes? >> Mhm. >> Yeah, so he's a good friend of mine, and that's one of the big things he's talks about and teaches me. He's like He's like, "I can teach you all the skills." He's like, "All the scripts,
[1:15:04] this things." Like, "But if you don't have that confidence >> Exactly. >> to do it." And my whole understanding of confidence comes from actually just building evidence. So, >> Yes. >> Um I do Every time I come out to America here, I'll I'll tell you more about off this, but we'll do like fun stuff like combat training and blah blah blah. >> Sure. >> And every every time I do it, I leave there feeling like more confident. I'm like, "Wow." Like, and I grew up in a in a boxing gym. I grew up doing Muay Thai and stuff. So, throughout my sort of teenage life and early 20s, I felt a little bit of confidence, you know, on
[1:15:35] the streets and whatever. But this is taking it to a whole other level, where I'm like, it ends You know, so I I guess what I'm trying to extract from you is if the people listening to this want to leave here and go, "How can I build my own confidence?" Have you got any advice of what either you've gone through or what you've even had to deal with people in the field? I'm sure you probably had to recruit people and put them in uncomfortable situations. >> Sure. >> How do you quickly develop confidence in someone? >> You have to throw yourself right into the middle of it. And don't be afraid to fail. Fail a lot. That's how you learn. I I
[1:16:07] sat next to a guy in Arabic training for a year, right? 9 hours a day, 5 days a week for an entire year. It was only three of us in the class. So, I sat next to this guy. Good-looking guy, really athletic, and had a gift for the Arabic language. And his dad had been the Deputy Director of the CIA, right? This guy has everything going for him. And I remember thinking, "Man, this guy is a really great officer." It was a
[1:16:37] pleasure to know him. So, I went out to the Middle East. He went to the very neighboring country. And he sends me a classified email one day. And he said, "What are you doing this weekend?" I said, "Nothing, actually." He said, "Can you fly over here?" And I thought, "Huh, that's odd." I said, "Sure." So, it's like a 30-minute flight from one country to the next. I fly down there. He picks me up at the airport. I said, "Are you okay?"
[1:17:07] And he said, "No." He said, "This job is not for me. It's not." I said, "Are you kidding me?" >> He was a spy? >> Yeah. >> For CIA or >> Yeah, CIA. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, we were in Arabic together. >> Okay, yeah, yeah. >> So, I said, "You're a natural-born case officer." He said, "I don't have it in my heart to convince people to commit treason. I can't do it." And I said, "You have a conscience." And he said, "My dad's going to be so ashamed. I don't even know how to tell him." And I said, "No, man, you tried."
[1:17:38] I said, "There are a million other things you can do. You're a gifted linguist, and you're a nice guy." So, we had dinner at his place that night. His girlfriend was living with him. And we we had a long heart-to-heart. And sort of talked through the whole thing. And I said, "Don't worry about your dad. Your dad loves you. Your dad doesn't care if you're not going to be a case officer. Your dad doesn't care if you're not going to, you know, be a deputy director of the CIA like like he was. Your dad wants you to be happy.
[1:18:09] That's all. Every dad wants his son to be happy." I had kids at the time. He didn't have kids. And so, he called his dad and he said, "This this is not for me." And his dad said, "What do you think would be for you?" And he said, "I want to be a nurse." And his dad said, "Resign and come home and be the best nurse you can be." And that's what he's doing. He's a nurse. And he's happy. >> I mean, yeah, that that heart that that value system definitely wouldn't work.
[1:18:40] I want to help people. Um, what would you say is the number one spy skill people should have in everyday life? >> Adaptability. We shouldn't be so laser-focused on ourselves and our needs that we can't see what other people need or what other people respond to. You know, always be thinking about other people. >> What's your What's your status on the whole CIA and everything now? So, you've
[1:19:11] you've been out of jail for When did you get out of jail? >> Uh, February of 2015. >> Okay, so wow. So, 11 years now. >> Are friends with anybody in the agency still? >> oh, yeah. Lots. >> Okay, so there's Is there bad blood there? >> No. >> Are you worried? Well, I mean, 11 years, you're probably not worried anymore. >> No, listen, I'm very >> when you got out? >> Yeah, a little bit. I'm very popular at the CIA now. >> Okay. >> Because my detractors are all either dead or retired. History has smiled on me. I was right and they were wrong.
[1:19:42] It's as simple as that. >> So, you were Was there a Was there a period there where you were worried that you would end up on hit lists? >> No. >> Even in jail? >> No. My My attorneys warned me just before I went to prison that the CIA was very upset that my sentence was so short. >> Mhm. >> And he He My attorney said, "They're going to try to set you up in there. So, be very, very careful." And that was at the front of my mind. I
[1:20:13] was in I was in about 3 months and there was an Afghan-American prisoner in there. He was a pharmacist who had an oxy problem. And he came up to me one day and he said, "Hey, John, there's a new guy who wants to meet you." I said, "Yeah, who's that?" He said, "He was the spokesman for the Taliban." I said, "That guy from New Jersey? He said, "Yeah." I said, "No, I don't want to meet I don't want to meet him." And he said, "Oh, okay. I'll tell him." Couple days later, I'm out in the prison yard
[1:20:43] exercising and this guy with a beard halfway to his waist is walking right up to me with his hand out to shake my hand. And I put my hands up like this and I said, "Don't [ __ ] touch me." And just as I said it, I looked past him and there was a guard in the woods outside the fence with a camera with a long-distance lens. Click click click click click click click. And I said, "Don't [ __ ] touch me. I said, I will kill you if you try to touch me."
[1:21:15] And he said, "Come on, man. I just want to be friends." I said, "Fuck you. I don't want to be your friend. Get the [ __ ] out of here." And he says, "You and I have a lot in common." I said, "You and I have nothing in common other than that I tried to kill people like you. Get the [ __ ] out of here." And then he walked away, but I never put my hands down cuz I wanted to make sure that the guards' pictures all showed me not touching him. >> Mhm. >> And so, um he walked away. He was only in the prison for 4 days.
[1:21:45] So, they transferred him in just to set me up. And then I saw the guard later. He was from the lieutenant's office and I said, "Nice try, amateur." >> [laughter] >> And that was it. >> Oh. So fun. Um John, we've we've come to the end. Um where can everyone find you? Like what are you doing now? Like where's your like where can everyone find you? Where can they get your book and and what's your mission now? >> Um you know, I have found kind of a
[1:22:16] second life in podcasting. I've got three successful monetized podcasts right now. One is every day Monday through Friday on YouTube and Rumble. It's called Deprogram. We talk about the news every day. I've got one that drops twice a week called Deep Focus, which is more in-depth interviews with activists, attorneys, politicians, people like that. And then I've got a very, very popular one on Apple Podcasts. Actually, I just talked to the producer. He just tried to call me a second ago. I I'm ranked seventh in the world this
[1:22:49] week. It's called John Kiriakou's Dead Drop. And it's like all the stories from my career. >> Okay. >> And um and I just sent my ninth book to the publisher. Uh so I've got a lot of books out there. And uh yeah, I mean it's it's a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And I I've put together a handsome living. >> I love it. Where where can everyone get your books? >> Oh, they're all on Amazon. Or the first one's out of print now, but the rest are all on Amazon.
[1:23:19] >> What what's the the one the 20 practical things again? >> Yeah, that's uh Doing Time Like a Spy. >> That one's still in print? >> I want to get that one. >> Thank you so much. >> to get it. Um beautiful. So to wrap this up, final question for you. If you were to go back to your 18-year-old self and give him 30 seconds of advice, what would it be? Hey, real quick. Just before we wrap up this episode, DreamFest is just around the corner, okay? And if you have not yet jumped on the waitlist or got yourself a ticket, every single thing you need to know about it is in the link below. So go ahead and hit that, secure your spot, check out everything that we've got
[1:23:50] going on this year. You're going to freaking love it. This is going to be the thing that's going to take you from where you are to where you want to get to. So hit the link, check it all out. Now let's get back into this interview. >> That's that's a tough one. You know, I think it would be the advice that I'd give any younger person today is to be true to yourself and to trust your gut on issues of right and wrong. We all We all know deep down what's right and what's wrong. Do what's right.