[00:00] Welcome to the Whistleblower of the Week podcast hosted by FBI whistleblower Jane Turner. Join her as she shares the stories of real life heroes and people of integrity. Welcome to Whistleblower of the Week by the Whistleblower Network News. I am Jane Turner and I'm so excited to have today John Chris Kiriakou and he is somebody
[00:40] that you really need to meet. He's fabulous. He was born in 1964. He's lived several lives in the last 60 years. He's Greek-American and former CIA and he was an intelligence analyst and operations officer in the Central Intelligence Agency. He is a journalist, an author and a damn fine human being. Welcome John. I am so excited to have you on as a brother whistleblower after being off the air for several
[01:14] months with fighting cancer. So I'm just delighted. I'm just delighted. Welcome. I'm very happy to see you and I'm happy to see you looking so great. Yes. And I will share with you after all that chemo and double mastectomy and 60 rounds of being flashed with radiation. I have come to the decision after going through all that that whistleblowing was harder.
[01:48] I'm dead serious. Yeah. And so I'm going to write about that because I was left stunned as I look back, you know, the whistleblowing portion of my life was harder. And we're going to talk today about yours because you have an incredible career. Incredible. Had a good career. So look, yes, yes, and even better now, I mean, you have blown up. Let me ask you though, I am I really like to know a little bit about your background
[02:20] and your parents because I often find that whistleblowers all share kind of the same common background ideals and their parents are usually the same. So tell us a little bit about your mom and dad and where you came out of and. Sure. I think I should probably start with my my paternal grandparents. All four of my grandparents came from Greece from the island of Rhodes. My father's parents came in 1931 and my mother's parents in 1934.
[02:54] My father's parents were major players in my life. We were very, very close and until the day he died, my grandfather had a framed picture of Franklin Roosevelt on the on the TV to the point where when I was a child, I thought he was a relative of ours. And when I got old enough to understand, you know, what was what and who was who, my grandfather
[03:25] said that we owed everything we had to Franklin Roosevelt because without him we could have never remained in this country. We could have never become productive citizens and my grandfather had a third grade education, but both of his children ended up with PhDs. My father got a bachelor's degree in music, a master's degree in education and a PhD in music education. My my aunt, Chris Anthony, got a bachelor's degree in nursing, a master's degree in nursing
[03:58] and a PhD in hospital administration. So this was really the land of opportunity. And because of that background, when I became an adult or even when I just went away to college, I only considered careers in public service because the idea was that this country was so good to us. We had to do something to give back. And so I only considered the Foreign Service, the CIA, maybe Capitol Hill.
[10:54] his same rank. I mean, I just am so proud of you too. And it's just stunning as far as I can see. But then here again, many lives you've led and you've been put in these situations which lead me to ask you, do you believe in divine intervention? I mean, you have been in the right place at the right time, even though at the time it must looked terrible. But looking back, do you believe you were in the... That's the key right there,
[11:24] looking back. Yeah. Because at the time, I was raised in a pious church going Greek Orthodox household. And I remember saying to God, am I really that bad a guy that I deserve this? Yeah. The whole U.S. government falls on my head. Yeah. Three counts of espionage for having lunch with the New York Times and speaking to ABC News about a program that was
[11:57] clearly illegal. Yes. But you know, it's funny, Jane, because if you... I give people this advice all the time, things really do get better. They really do. And if you know in your heart, in your gut that you're right and the other side is wrong, you're going to be okay. Exactly. And that's what's happened. Before we started recording, I mentioned to you that my detractors at the CIA who were very powerful and very
[12:30] dangerous men. Yes. And one woman are all now either dead or retired. They're gone. And I'm the one who still commands time in front of the TV cameras or in front of the podcast microphones. It's my side of the story. That's the side of record. And in your voice. And in your voice. No one's interpreting your case for you. It's your voice which is arriving
[13:05] at the other side, which is just thrilling in your case. I just thrilling. But now you do share. You did go to jail. And long time. And I'm sure knowing the type of person you are, it was no technique. No. In fact, actually just coincidentally, I wrote a book about it while I was in doing time like a spy. How the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison, which interestingly enough, won two literary awards.
[13:40] I wrote it in long hand on legal paper. And every once in a while, the guards would come into my cell and confiscate it and destroy it. So they said it was damaging to prison morale. And so what I ended up doing was writing every day. And every day when I was done writing, I would put it in an envelope, market legal mail, eyes only, which meant that they couldn't intercept it. And I would send it to Jaisal and Radak. And she saved dozens upon dozens of
[14:16] these envelopes. And when I got out of prison, I took them all. I ended up repeating a lot of the book because I couldn't remember what I had already written or was it confiscated or was it not confiscated? So I paid a Georgetown University undergrad $500 just to type it all onto a thumb drive and then I edited it and I sent it to the publisher. But yeah, on my very first day,
[14:49] it was clear to me, you know what, before my first day, one of my attorneys took me aside and he said, listen, I'm going to say something important and I need for you to understand it. He said, the CIA is very upset that you only got 23 months. Yes. They're going to try to set you up and trap you into doing something because they want you in there for at least five years. So beware. And I said, okay. And I was there about
[15:23] four months and a guy in my housing unit, an Afghan American pharmacist with an unfortunate Oxycontin problem came up to me. Nice, nice guy. And he said to me, hey, John, there's a guy that wants to meet you. He's the spokesman for the Taliban. And I said, the spokesman for the Taliban, are you talking about that case from New Jersey? And he said, yeah, yeah, that guy. I said, I don't have any desire to talk to that guy. And he said, oh, okay, I'll tell him a few
[15:58] days later, I'm in the yard walking around the track. And this guy with a beard halfway down to his waist is walking toward me with his hand stretched out, outstretched to shake my hands. And I put on my hands and I said, don't touch me. And I looked just past him. And there was a guard in the woods outside the fence with a camera with a long distance telephoto lens. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. So my hands were up and I said, don't you dare touch me. I will drop you where you stand. And he said,
[16:33] come on, man, we have a lot in common. And I said, we have nothing in common other than the fact that I spent my career trying to kill people like you. I said, that's right off. And he put his hand down and finally walked away. So I was like this the whole time I never touched him, never shook his hand. Then the cop ran away from his little hiding post. And just two days later, that prisoner was transferred out. He was in our prison for six days, six days. He was there to set you up, to set me up.
[17:07] But let's, let's, I get too far away from the reason you ended up in jail, along with other prestigious whistleblowers like a reality winner. And of course, Thomas Drake didn't actually go to jail, but he suffered tremendously. Natalie Edwards, who was the Finnson whistleblower, all ended up in jail because they took the Righteous Road. Let's talk about the Righteous Road you took, which ended you up in jail. And it's something
[17:38] so horrific. I just would think the people on the government side would hang their heads in shame. Tell us about what you blew. Congress passed a landmark law to protect whistleblowers who expose money laundering, cartel financing, and terrorist networks. Now Finnson is proposing rules that gut it, illegal barriers, no protection for international sources, and restrictions Congress never authorized. If Finnson ignores the legal objections raised,
[18:13] the rules can be challenged in court. But the public comment period is still open. The window closes June 1st. If you believe these whistleblowers deserve real protection, your comment will become part of the permanent legal record. Submit your comment today at whistleblowers.org. Whistle on. I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program. I had been the Chief of Counterterrorism Operations in Pakistan after 9-11, and I was
[18:43] responsible for the capture of the very first high-value target, Zayn al-Abdin Muhammad Hussain, who was known as Abu Zubaydah. We believed at the time that Abu Zubaydah was the number three in al-Qaeda. He wasn't. He was a bad guy, but he was not the number three in al-Qaeda. He had nothing to do with 9-11. Well, I had no idea what was going to happen to Abu Zubaydah. Once we caught him, I turned him over to a rendition team and they disappeared into the
[19:15] sky on the CIA's private jet. And then a couple of months later, I returned to headquarters. It was at headquarters in the cafeteria, no less, that a senior officer approached me and asked me very casually if I wanted to be trained in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. I'd never heard the term before. No. He told me what they were. I said, that is a torture program. And very defensively, he said, it's not a torture program. DOJ approved it, and the president signed it, and we're going to get rough with these guys.
[19:49] So I told them that I had a moral and ethical problem with it, and I believed that it was illegal. I didn't care what the justice department's office of- of legal counsel said, OLC, this was an illegal program. I was the only person out of 14 who were approached who declined the torture training and then the VEDA was tortured mercilessly beginning on August the 2nd, 2002.
[20:21] So I kept waiting for somebody to go public and to say that this was happening and indeed someone blew the whistle on the secret prisons that the CIA had set up. There was a woman, a woman whom I respected deeply who was at the White House. They escorted her out of the building, took her badge, told her never to come back. But to this day, she adamantly says that it was not her. Whoever it was, they're an American hero. Right.
[20:52] We'll never know who it was. Right. Okay. In December of 2007, Brian Ross called me from ABC News. Nobody had gone public over Abu Zubeda. But Brian said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubeda. I said that was absolutely untrue. I was the only person who was kind to Abu Zubeda. And he said, well, you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself. I had never spoken to a journalist before.
[21:23] I didn't know that was an old reporter's trick. I said, I'll think about it. And then in the intervening days, that was on a Monday. On Wednesday, President George W. Bush gave a press conference in which he said, he looked in the camera and he said, we do not torture. And I said to my wife, my second wife, she was a senior CIA officer. I said, he is a bald faced liar. He's just looking at the American people in the eye and he's just lying to them.
[21:55] And then on Friday, the president comes out of the South Portico of the White House walking toward the helicopter, Marine One, to fly to Camp David for the weekend. And a reporter shouted a question at him about torture and he stopped. And he said, well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer. And I said to my wife, Brian Ross's source is at the White House. And they're going to try to pin this on me. I'm going public. And so I called Brian and I said, I will give you your interview.
[22:30] And I decided in the whatever it was four or five days between Bush's statement and the interview that I would simply tell the truth. And so I went to ABC News here in Washington and I said three things. I mean, I said a lot of things, but I said three things that were important. I said that torture was official US government policy.
[23:01] It was not the result of a rogue. I said the CIA was indeed torturing its prisoners. And I said that the torture program had been personally approved by the president himself. And then the whole government just fell on my head. Yes. Because you feel or you revealed rocks in the soul of America, didn't you? Yeah, I mean, that was a shocker that our country could do something like that.
[23:32] You know, just where the shining city on the exactly. And I say that all the time. Ronald Reagan said we were a shining city on a hill. We were a beacon of hope for the rest of the world because we had respect for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. Right. But we didn't. You know, when I was overseas, I was on rotation to the State Department for three years and twice I was the human rights officer.
[24:02] So I wrote the annual human rights report that went to Congress and I took that job seriously. Yes. I remember going into the Minister of Interior's office in Bahrain and saying, Your Highness, you cannot murder a 15 year old child because he marched in a pro-democracy demonstration. A peaceful one at that. I have to report this to Congress and they could cut off arms sales. You have to respect human rights.
[24:32] Well then, five years later, 9-11 happens, six years later, and then what? Then CIA station chiefs all around the world are going in saying, Don't pay attention to the human rights guy. We want you to open a secret prison and we're going to torture people there. Or better yet, you torture them and then just give us transcripts of whatever they say. Yeah. What kind of shining city on a hill is that? It isn't. And you know what makes me really sad, really sad, John, is the fact that that
[25:05] gives now every other government in the world the right to do it to our people. Exactly. It's not an accident, Jane, that even ISIS, when they would kidnap an American, and they did kidnap American journalists, they would make them wear orange jumpsuits or beheading them. Yeah. And it's because we made our prisoners wear orange jumpsuits. Right. And then those horrific pictures that came out, you know, where they had them naked and yes, scaring them with dogs and it just does not meet the standards that this nation
[25:40] has so long exposed. But then here you are. You're riding the whirlwind because they must have revealed your name because they came after you. Or did they not? Right. They did reveal it. I'm 100 percent sure that they had revealed my name. Yes. Okay. Boom. There you are. Yeah. Did you have legal representation during that time? I'm glad you asked that. Yeah. Did you rush into it and just didn't have any legal? This is the most important advice that I can possibly give any would-be whistleblower.
[26:12] Don't make the mistake I made. I just went and did the interview. The only thing I would change in this entire experience is don't open your mouth unless an attorney is sitting next to you and preferably an attorney skilled in whistleblower defense. Amen. Don't say a word. A word. Amen, brother. And you learned the hard way, didn't you? Oh, boy, did I. Oh, boy. I had to be reactive, Jane. Yeah. Now, granted, I ended up with the best lawyer's money could buy. The Washington Post called my attorneys legal titans.
[26:46] Yeah. I mean A-list attorneys. Right. But still, I was reactive. Exactly. And that's what happened to Reality Winner and Natalie Edwards. That's right. It makes you so sad because they have the best intentions. They have a moral compass, which is pointing north like you, and they're concerned about treatment of other people and how our nation is not living up to what it should be.
[27:19] And it's not justice, John. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the government wasn't seeking justice in your case. It seems to me they were looking at retaliation, reprisal, retribution, and just punishing you. Punish you. My attorneys were unanimous in their belief, and they used to say this to me all the time. This case is not about John Kiriakou. You're small potatoes for them. This case is about frightening any other would-be whistleblower, whether it's in
[27:50] the CIA, or the FBI, or NSA, or even the Pentagon, frightening them into silence. You see what we did to Kiriakou? He's bankrupt. He lost his family. He's going to go to prison. He lost his pension. You want to be like him, or you want to just keep your mouth shut? And the majority of people keep their mouth shut, John. This is what makes it so interesting and why I love talking to whistleblowers is because they're unique, and they possess certain characteristics that do not allow them to keep
[28:26] silent. They have a driving need to reveal injustice, and torture is injustice. It's injustice. Jane, forgive me for preaching or pontificating, but we have a law in this country called the Federal Torture Act of 1946, which bans by name exactly those torture techniques that we used against prisoners, besides the fact that we executed Japanese soldiers who had
[29:00] waterboarded American POWs. We're the authors of the United Nations Convention Against Torture. We can't just pretend that these laws don't exist. Right. And we have fallen down, haven't we? Yes. Do you see us still down on the ground in terms of the morality, the justice aspect? Do you think we're still down on that ground? I do. I do believe that we're still down. And I think there's a lot of blame to go around.
[29:31] Certainly whoever happens to be occupying the White House on any given day or in any given year, and this is not a partisan issue. It doesn't matter if it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House. They're weak when it comes to civil rights, civil liberties and human rights. But I put equal blame on Capitol Hill because we have oversight committees, oversight committees, that really, as you well know, Jane, they're... they're no more than cheerleaders for the likes of the CIA, the FBI, really the entire intelligence
[30:07] community, the defense community, they don't oversee anything. No. They just rubber stamp everything. Rubber stamp, that's what they do. Yeah, and we've seen that, haven't we? The other thing I'd like to point out to our audience, which is extremely important, is that you have helped other whistleblowers. I know one personally that he was not in good shape. As you know, some whistleblowers are able to handle things a little bit better than others,
[30:38] and the majority of us just are beat to death. We really are. But I know you put out your hand and you kept him from slipping down. Boy, that's a wonderful thing to do. It was the least I could do, and it's not worthy of thanks. I had so many people offer me a helping hand when I was at my lowest. I knew that he was struggling mentally, emotionally. The pressure is all consuming, and it was just swallowing him up. If you can help somebody just by
[31:17] getting him out of the house for three or four hours or go into dinner, it's the least you can do. Like I say, so many people helped me. So many people reached out proactively to help me. It was the least I could do. I got an email from an attorney today this morning asking me if I can help another whistleblower. I've got the email right here in front of me asking if I can help another whistleblower, and I said, absolutely yes, I absolutely brought up your name, and Jesselyn Radek's name, and Tom Drake and a handful of other people.
[31:50] That's right. And I'm going to put everybody in touch. I'm going to do that today. Yeah, and we're more than happy to do that, as you know, because that's part of our mission now, isn't it? That's part of our journey is helping others. That's right. Because all of us can remember how alone we felt and how desperate things seemed because the whole government is just kicking the dust bunnies out of you. Yes, indeed. Absolutely true. Oh, yeah. And they've blackballed you in your industry? Oh, yeah. They're just vicious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Vicious. Oh, it's never ending.
[32:23] I commend you. I commend you. Thank you. I'll tell you why I thought so hard. Daniel Ellsberg, who of course is the godfather of all national security whistleblowers and a genuine and bona fide hero to all of us, Dan said something to me that was life changing. Dan blew the whistle on the Vietnam War with release of the Pentagon Papers in 1970. The Nixon administration not only ruined his life, but they tried to get him to commit suicide.
[32:55] They charged him with espionage, but he was never tried because they went so far as to break into his psychiatrist's office, steal his psychiatric records, and then just release them to the media. And the judge threw the charges out. Dan told me that for all intents and purposes, he never worked again. He said he had been poor since 1970. And it was only because of the
[33:25] generosity and kindness of his brother-in-law, his wife's brother. His wife's parents cut them off cold turkey because they were Nixon followers. And Dan brought shame on the family and all the same crap we've all heard. And so it was only because of the generosity of his wife's brother that they were able to survive. And he said to me, his exact words were no national security whistleblower has ever made a financial comeback. By God, Dan, that is not going to be me.
[34:01] I'm going to fight until I do make a comeback. I'm not going to let them have the last laugh. And so I've been relentless. Yes, you have. Relentless. And I just love what you're doing. Not only are you relentless, and you're trying to restore integrity to our government, but you are showing a path for other whistleblowers because you're right. I hope so. The government wants to beat you up so badly that other people who are thinking of maybe
[34:32] telling the truth are like, no, can't do that. I mean, you lose families. You lose your job. I even had a cousin, a cousin older than I, whom I had always respected. And he told me that he just couldn't speak to me anymore. First cousin, because I brought shame on our family. That's what he said. And I said, I brought shame on our family. I said, you imported drugs from the Colombians, and I brought shame on our family. I said, you think I didn't see
[35:07] your name in the Washington Post as the Coke dealer to the mayor of Alexandria, Virginia, and that you ran to Greece to hide until the statute of limitations was expired? You think I didn't know about that? And I'm the one who brought shame to our family. Yeah. Every whistleblower has that story. I had a relative who said, well, why would the FBI do that if it wasn't true? Well, as people are finding out, yeah, they do do these things. Oh boy. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. So tell me your future because you are a rock star right now.
[35:41] Thank you. You're a rock star. I've been very, very fortunate. You're coming back. So this is what your dream was. You're going to come back, and you have been. Yeah. So what is your future going to be now? Well, it took me 12 years to become an overnight success. That's what my brother says. When I got out of prison, I literally could not find a job anywhere. I mean, I was turned down by Target and Safeway and McDonald's and Uber. We don't hire felons.
[36:19] We don't hire felons. I literally could not find a job anywhere. And so I finally got a crumb from a think tank in Washington called the Institute for Policy Studies. So they offered me a job that paid minimum wage, but I would have to have an ongoing GoFundMe to raise the money for my own salary. I did that for a year, and then they said, this is untenable, best of luck. And so I left. I had twice turned down an offer of a radio show
[36:53] at Sputnik Radio, which is a radio network owned by the Russian government. But by then, my wife and I had split up. And it was either do that or go on food stamps. Quite literally. So I said to the Russians, if I took this job, I would want the freedom to criticize anybody I wanted, including Vladimir Putin. They said, done.
[37:25] I said, put it in writing in the contract. And they said, done. And they did it. So I signed it. I ended up spending seven years there. And over the course of seven years, I started doing my own podcast and I started teaching as an adjunct at a handful of universities. And things started to gain a little traction. And then Joe Biden put sanctions on the Russian media and I lost my job. Yep. And so I had a couple of bucks saved, like not much,
[38:00] couple of bucks. And I decided I'm going to start my own podcast with a friend. Ended up doing three podcasts. I've since left one of them. But I was able to monetize all three of them. And I would supplement that with speeches, paid speeches all around the world. I'm far more popular in Europe and the Middle East than I am in the United States. So I was making a good bit of money overseas. And then two months ago, I gave an interview to a very popular
[38:36] podcaster, Stephen Barlett, who does the diary of a CEO. And a college student in Texas took that interview and chopped it up into shorts and gave me a funny Alvin and the chipmunks voice and had lasers shooting out of my eyes. And it just scored like an atomic bomb with Gen Z. And the next thing I know, I'm on TV everywhere and I'm doing cameo recordings. I can't keep up with cameos.
[39:10] This morning, let me look, what am I up to now that are still pending? 111 are still pending. Wow. It's I can't do it all. But that led to me being signed by the biggest talent agency in the world, which includes a speakers bureau and it includes an A list literary agent. I've written nine books that was that also has supplemented my income. Well, instead of my book selling, you know, 1000 copies, 3000 copies, my first one sold 150,000 copies and we're going back to
[39:45] the big five again. So there is life after whistleblowing. Dan Ellsberg was wrong. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And that's so important to get that word out, isn't it? You don't have to go out and hide in the woods anymore. You don't have to do that. And, you know, as long as we are able to facilitate each other, to help each other, you know, I think we're going to see more and more stories like yours. I think you're right. Yes. And now I understand you're going to National Whistleblower Day possibly in July.
[40:19] I have to tell you, I love National Whistleblower Day. It's an event that the National Whistleblower Center puts on every year. It's always a major event on Capitol Hill. It's always held in the Kennedy Caucus Room, which is not just, you know, the biggest room on Capitol Hill. It's the most historic single room anywhere on Capitol Hill. It's where every major Senate hearing from the sinking of the Titanic to Watergate and Iran Contra has
[40:52] been held. And you pack that place every single year. It's a fantastic day. It's a fantastic lunch. And then you get, you know, A-list movers and shakers from Capitol Hill. Senators, congressmen, committee chairman to come and celebrate whistleblowers. It's an event that no whistleblower or whistleblowers supporters should miss. Well, that's why I'm so excited you're coming this year. I am too. And Tom Drake came last year. Yes, indeed. And I was just so impressed with him. It's just incredible. So what would
[41:29] you tell that little boy who told his dad years and years ago that he wanted to be a spy? If you had the chance to travel back, what would you tell him? Always tell the truth and do the right thing, which is exactly what I was raised to do. You know, I say all the time, Jane, we all know in our gut the difference between right and wrong. It's just a basic human understanding. The question is, do we then do what's right? Or do we do what's easy? Do we do
[42:03] what's expedient? So I would tell that little boy, your parents and grandparents were right. Do what's right and always tell the truth. And I think that's why I'm resonating with this generation of people between 15 and 30, primarily, because I tell the truth. And that's become so rare these days. So yeah, I just am delighted. And here's
[42:37] the big one. If you had to do it over again, would you do it? Oh, yes. That's an easy question. The only thing I would do differently is have that lawyer sitting right next to me. That is it. But yes, I would absolutely do it again. And John, considering you are just a person of extreme integrity and truth, what are your last words that you're going to part with here to our audience?
[43:10] Oh, thank you. I want people to know if you're thinking of blowing the whistle on waste, fraud, abuse, illegality or threats to the public health or public safety, you are not alone. There is an entire community of supporters out there waiting for you. Don't be afraid to reach out and ask for help or ask for guidance. The support is there and it's waiting for you.
[43:40] Wonderful. And does it scare you, John, that you may be entering those same ranks as Snowden, Drake? Does that frighten you at all? Or do you embrace it? It's funny, Jane. We're all friends now. I participated in an event in Berlin two or three weeks ago. And it's an event that I've done two or three times in the past. So I go to the hotel and I check in and the woman says, I don't
[44:17] see you on the computer. Are you on this list for the conference? And she gives me a list of a dozen people and every single one of them is a friend of mine. It was Tom Drake and Jaisalyn Radak and Terry Albury and Oh, Terry. Yeah. Yeah. And Lisa Ling and just everybody on the list was a whistleblower and an outspoken whistleblower at that. It was fantastic. Isn't that great? Loved it. And I see nothing but just wonderful things happening to
[44:49] you in the future, John. Oh, thank you. From your lips to God's ears. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for joining our podcast, Whistleblower of the Week. You are a hero. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Please remember to like, comment and subscribe. You can find more whistleblower stories at whistleblowersblog.org. Music by Rachel Kilgore, guest booking by Victoria Thompson and editing by Anissa Cheek.
[45:23] Whistleblower of the Week is a production of Whistleblower Network News. The views expressed by podcast guests are their own and not those of Whistleblower Network News.