[00:00] Welcome back to the Devore Darken Show. We have a special guest here that I get to interview. Very privileged, matter of fact, because of his story. And the best way to describe this, he is a former CIA officer who told the truth about torture and paid the price so others didn't have to pay. And the others I'm talking about are the people in power. And so I want to introduce everybody to John Kiriakou. How are you? >> Doing well, thanks. How are you?
[00:30] >> Doing good. Doing good. Thank you again for making the time. Um one of the biggest things I just have to ask right up front here is you went to prison. And the people who ordered the torture did it, based on my understanding of your story. Why is that exactly? >> Well, I mean, just to just to be direct about it, uh because the White House protected them. The Obama administration made a decision
[01:00] that that uh to use the president's words, they would look forward, not backward. And uh what he meant by that was that the torturers would be protected. The people who came up with the idea of torture would be protected. The people who implemented the torture were protected. The people who funded the torture and approved it on Capitol Hill were protected. Everybody was protected. But I broke ranks and I went public. And going public was unforgivable. >> Yeah. And just so we're clear, and I
[01:33] think I know what the answer is, but do you regret telling the truth? Yes or no? >> Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would do it again today, even if it meant going back to prison. >> Yeah. Then why do you so many people inside the government stay quiet? I mean, even during that time, why did they stay quiet? >> Well, to quote one of my attorneys, he said, "This case is so much bigger than John Kiriakou." He said, this case is meant to frighten everybody else who's thinking of blowing the whistle or
[02:03] opening their mouths to talk about waste, fraud, or abuse because you lose your freedom, you lose your pension. I'll never work for get for anybody again other than for myself. My friends walked away from me. Some of my family members walked away from me. Do people really want to go through that? And uh so far the answer's been mostly no. >> Yeah. Now for my audience, in case you guys live under a rock, uh John is the the one man behind exposing
[02:36] the waterboarding, correct? That I have that accurate, right? >> That's right. >> And so what did the CIA tell Americans at the time about the torture techniques? >> Well, the CIA didn't tell anybody anything because the the program was so highly classified. But the president was the one telling people. George W. Bush looked right in the camera and said in response to a a reporter's question, he said, "We do not torture."
[03:07] >> Right. >> Which of course was a lie. And um and they kept up the lie as long as they could, and then I I blew the whistle in a nationally televised interview on ABC News, and the next day the president said, his exact words, he said, "I don't know this man. I don't know why this man would throw me under the bus. I don't know this man's motivation." >> Yeah. >> Which essentially was an admission that what I had said was true. And then of course when the torture report came out, it proved that everything I said was
[03:38] true. >> Now let let me make sure I understand your position here. Was it that the torture was the problem, or was it that they were lying to the American people about it? >> Oh, the torture was the problem. We've got multiple laws in the United States on the books right now that ban torture. We have the Federal Torture Act of 1946. It banned exactly the same techniques that we were using against our prisoners. Uh we we are signatories, we were the
[04:10] authors, frankly, of the United Nations Convention Against Torture. But even more than that, in 1946, we executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American prisoners of war. That was a death penalty offense to to waterboard somebody. And then in January of 1968, the Washington Post ran a photograph of an American soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner. That soldier was convicted of torture and sentenced to 20 years in
[04:42] Leavenworth. And then in 2002, like magic, it's all suddenly legal. And it wasn't, because the laws never changed. Congress never amended the laws. We changed. >> Yeah. Uh I want to share something with you personally. So, I am so obsessed with these spy TV shows. And the two ones that stand out to me that I watched the most of, and it's so funny cuz it's actually in this ballpark
[05:13] of our conversation, Homeland and 24. >> Yeah. >> And there was a part of the 24 TV series which is it was hitting home to the American people, and whether you call it propaganda, whether you call it messaging, they dedicated at least two seasons to getting people to see how bad torture was. Like they were on the other side of it if that makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Do you Do you Did you see it the same way? I don't know if you are familiar with those shows, but >> Um the reason why I'm bringing them up
[05:44] is because did they accurately depict some of these situations? >> They did. They did. First of all, both of those shows are outstanding. There are so many absolutely terrible unwatchable CIA shows out there. It's ridiculous. Almost as a almost almost as a rule of thumb. Anything on broadcast, ABC, CBS, NBC, usually Fox. Unwatchable. Um those two were terrific. Of course Homeland's on or was on Showtime. The
[06:16] only thing that was inaccurate about Homeland is when when she went nuts they just kept her in the field. And in real life when you go nuts they bring you back, they send you to a hospital, they get you better better again then you go back out. Um but 24, yeah, that's how I saw it as well. They were trying to show the horrors of torture, the horrors of of waterboarding. And then compare that to something like the film Zero Dark Thirty, which was a lie from beginning to end. Zero Dark Thirty made it look like the torture program
[06:49] led to the location of Osama bin Laden. That is absolutely not true. Completely made up. Um what it was was outstanding analysis that led to the location of Osama bin Laden. Simple as that. >> Yeah. So you would probably represent the the thinking that intelligence should come first and analysis should come first uh before torture. I'm saying in in the in in the world of where people are defending it essentially.
[07:20] >> Absolutely, yes. >> Do do do you think there was ever a moment where torture is justified? Or at least understood as far as the outcome that we were able to achieve? >> No, because what the argument that most people use to justify torture is is in the ticking time bomb scenario. What's called the ticking time bomb scenario. Where there's a bomb, it's almost ready to go off, it's somewhere in American city, you got to get the information right away, and the only way to do that
[07:50] is torture. First of all, number one, never happened in real life. It's that's just from the movies, it just never happens in real life. Number two, when you torture somebody, they're going to tell you what you want to know, but it's going to be mixed in with so much garbage that you're going to need 6 months for your analysts to go through the the information to figure out what's true and what's not true. And the reason for that is that your prisoner is going to tell you literally anything he thinks
[08:23] you might want to hear just to get you to stop torturing him. John McCain, Senator John McCain, who was the 2008 Republican nominee for president not 2000 Yeah, 2008. Um he was infamously tortured mercilessly in North Vietnam at a torture chamber called the Hanoi Hilton. And um they would ask him for the names of everybody in his unit. And he said he would just name the offensive line of the you know, 1965
[08:56] Green Bay Packers. And they would dutifully write everything down, and they would say, "Good. Good man. We're we're going to stop this session then. Good for you. You see what happens when you answer our questions? You see?" Well, he didn't answer the question. But it's going to take them months to figure out that this is the offensive line of Green Bay Packers. And so that scenario just never It's never appropriate. >> Yeah. What what you're saying is it's not 24 in that cuz every episode was exactly that
[09:26] scenario, ticking time bomb, you only have 24 hours. >> Another thing that's just not real from 20 from 24 is when you jump out of the metro with your gun like this. First of all, you'd never put your gun in the air. You you face it down so you don't actually shoot somebody in the face. And he jumps out of the metro station at Arlington Cemetery with his gun like this. It's like, "Oh, come on." That's when I decided that I just couldn't I couldn't watch it anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I started to catch on. I was like, "All right, this is a little." But but but the core of the
[09:58] which is the only reason why I brought it up is just just the core of the actual debate of torture as a means to gather intelligence is um um what what I was looking at. >> Yeah. >> At that time, who actually decided who would get tortured or punished? Was it people in Washington? Was it you know, you know, how how did that all work? >> Yeah, in the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, we had a group called high-value targets, HVT. And um and they had a list of, you know, what
[10:29] they believed to be the most important terrorists on the loose in the world today. All of whom were with al-Qaeda. And as we started capturing those guys one at a time, they were sent to secret prisons that we had set up all over the world. And they would undergo torture at these secret prisons so that nobody knew where they were, nobody knew what was happening to them. Even inside the CIA, the compartment was very tightly held. Only a handful of people knew that any of this was taking place. In many cases, even the presidents and
[11:00] prime ministers of the countries where the where the secret prisons were had no idea that there was a CIA secret prison in their country. These were handshake deals between the director of the CIA and the director of that country's service. And so it was all done in secret. All of it. >> Wow. And that's why they had to deny it ultimately. And this kind of segues to my next question which is in I guess behind closed doors, were you applauded by some of your colleagues?
[11:31] Did people say, "Hey, listen, I know you're going to get axed for this. We don't have the heart to to do what you did, but you know, did it like was there an any silent acknowledgement here?" >> Yeah. I actually saved one email from a retired deputy director of the CIA. And he said in this email, "You've chosen a difficult path. I'm glad somebody did. I only wish I had had the courage to do it myself." And I saved it as a souvenir because
[12:03] just when I was at my lowest point, that email saved me. >> Yeah. Yeah, that is that is really good. Do you think it still happens today? >> Well, that's that's really a good question. The conventional wisdom is no. Um but how do we know it's not happening? We're just going to have to take the CIA's word for it. Uh I'm still hopeful that the House and Senate oversight committees, the Senate
[12:34] Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence are actually carrying out oversight like they're supposed to. In the past, they've been really little more than cheerleaders for the CIA. But I'm I'm hoping that they're doing the right thing and stopping the CIA from carrying out programs like this. But the the bottom line is we really don't know. We just have to take their word for it. >> What would happen if a low-level agent
[13:05] did that type of torture, meaning waterboarding, without approval at that time? Would would that person have been in trouble? Like would there be an investigation? >> At that time, he probably would have gotten a rap on the knuckles and, you know, a stern talking to that you have to do this in channels within the program. If it were to happen today, I would think I would expect that he would be prosecuted. >> Mhm. Yeah.
[13:36] Um where do you think it originated from? This this paradigm essentially at the CIA to do these type of tortures. I mean, it had to start somewhere. >> Oh, yeah. I can tell you exactly where it started. It started at a cocktail party in October of of 2001. It was it was about 4 weeks after 9/11. And uh a senior CIA officer went up to George Tenet at this cocktail party. George Tenet being the CIA director at the time
[14:07] saying that he had two friends who had been contractors with the Department of the Air Force named um James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. Both uh psychologists. And um they had reverse engineered the Air Force's SERE training. The SERE training taught our pilots what to do when they were shot down. You're going to be waterboarded. You're going to be tortured. You're going to be gassed. This is what it feels like. This is how you respond to it. This is what you do
[14:38] to try to, you know, maintain your sanity. They reverse engineered it so that we could do it to our prisoners. Uh Tenet thought that was a good idea. We ended up paying them there there are competing figures out there. One is $80 million. One is $108 million. But we made them rich beyond their wildest dreams. And they came and trained officers to carry out these torture techniques. And in the case of
[15:08] Abu Zubaydah, who was the first high-value target, um they're the ones that actually did the torturing. >> So, let me just make sure I'm straight here. Was there ever a successful outcome from torturing? I mean, there has to be at least one, right? Where they got what they were looking for or it was all bad. >> No, it was all bad. Um and it's well documented, very well documented in the Senate torture report. Or not even the torture, we don't know what the torture
[15:38] report says. The torture report was 5,000 pages. It's never been released. What was released was the 500-page executive summary of the torture report, but even that is easily 50% redacted. But if you read the footnotes, you can fill in the blanks with the footnotes. So, what happened was, you know, we began torturing Abu Zubaydah, he was our first one. And he had already been talking to the FBI.
[16:09] He had spilled his guts to the FBI because the FBI treated him with respect. You know, they sat across the table from him. They had a conversation. They established a rapport. They built a relationship. And he started talking and answering their questions. And then the CIA took over and began torturing him. He immediately clammed up. About 6 weeks later, the FBI came back, had to start from scratch again. And then the CIA started torturing him again, and he clammed up. And then we
[16:40] caught Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his son-in-law, Amar al-Baluchi, tort- started torturing them. Then we caught Ramzi bin al-Shibh, started torturing him. All these different guys. As soon as the torture began, they either would stop talking, if they had been talking to the FBI, or they started giving us gibberish. And so, if anything, this torture program set us back and put Americans in more danger than they had been.
[17:11] >> Which is why we continue to have Americans that were killed. I mean, you know, where there was a lack a lack of intelligence. Um I believe that's the argument that that you're making. Um you know, I'm kind of having an epiphany here because I I kind of feel like Americans have been programmed to believe that torture there has been some level of success. Yes, it's immoral, unethical, and against the law, >> Yeah. >> but we have found different ways to use it to our benefit.
[17:42] And it doesn't sound like that from from your >> No. >> point of view. >> First of all, that's that's just a giant lie that's been perpetrated by the torturers. They they came out with their own book, a bunch of them, like six of them. They co- co-wrote a book uh in response to the uh to the Senate torture report. And they tried to justify their support for for torture. All they did is they sealed their own fates, you know, in life. They'll always be known as the
[18:12] torturers. Secondly, you know, Ronald Reagan said that the United States was a shining city on a hill. We were a beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. Or we're not. We can We can be the place that has torture chambers and dungeons where we keep people who've never been charged with a crime, or we can be that beacon of hope, but we can't be both.
[18:44] We have to choose. And you know, when I was when I was serving overseas in the State Department, I was the human rights officer. I had to I had to write the annual human rights report, which every with which the State Department does for every country in the world with which we have diplomatic relations. It's congressionally mandated. And we send that to Congress every year. Well, if we're going to you know, yell at other countries about human rights, don't you think we should be respecting human rights, too? Otherwise, we look
[19:15] like fools. You know, I I and I say another thing, and this is this is hypothetical, I want to make clear. But, if I go into a country's Minister of Interior and I say, "Your Excellency, you cannot beat to death a 15-year-old boy because he marched in a pro-democracy demonstration." You can't do that. I have to report that to Congress, and that may may jeopardize um the sale of weapons to your country. But then, an hour later, the CIA station chief goes in and says, "Don't listen to
[19:47] the human rights guy. If you set up a secret prison, we'll give you $5 million. And you can torture people, and then just send us a transcript of whatever they say." Is he going to listen to the human rights guy? Or is he going to listen to the CIA station chief? Cuz in my mind, that's an easy decision. So, we're we can't be both. We're going to have to choose which country we want to be. >> Yeah, you know, as an American, I'm very grateful and privileged, of course. There's no doubt about that. Um
[20:18] but you know, once you really study, you start to realize we are probably one of the biggest hypocrites on the planet, you know, especially based on our history. Um and that's not to be a doomer or something. It's just to to tell the full picture here, which demands we're saying why, you know, we we should learn from our mistakes. Okay. >> You know, I was at a If I may, I was at a Christmas party one time with a whole bunch of CIA people. And one of the women there, CIA secretary, was married to an
[20:48] Iranian-American guy. So, he came up to me, and he said, "So, you're the you're the whistleblower." And I said, "Yeah." And uh he said, "You know, you seem like a nice guy, but I just think you were dead wrong on that." And I said, I said, "Are you saying you're pro-torture?" And he said, "Yeah, I am." And I said, "Well, you know, I'm old enough that I understand and realize that reasonable people can disagree on this issue. But, I will say, if you want to torture
[21:19] and you want the CIA to be an organization of torturers, you're going to have to change the law because the law is clear. You can't just pretend that the law doesn't exist or that somehow because you're so special, you're exempt from its coverage. And he said, oh, yeah, yeah. These are very bad people. They're murderous people. And I said, allegedly. They've never been charged with a crime. Another thing, if you want to be an American, I told him, then you have to charge them with a
[21:50] crime. You have to allow them to face their accusers in a court of law and to be judged by a jury of their peers. Again, you can't just go and saying, constitutional protections for me, but for these people whose politics I don't like, we're going to torture them. We're going to keep them in cages for the rest of their lives and we're not going to tell anybody about it. That's not America. And he just decided to walk away. He wasn't going to win that argument. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting because
[22:21] that's the great experiment, right? Our founding fathers, uh, I think they knew what they were doing. They had certain things built in that would reel us back essentially, you know. Uh, and and here is the actual line and don't go past that, you know. Uh, so I I could I see both sides as far as why logically someone would believe, hey, if we put the pressure or or the screws to this guy, he's going to give us some information. I I I could I could see that. I guess it
[22:52] begs the question, why not let the intelligent or intelligence agencies and the analysts on the ground, uh, uh, their part and if they're doing a a better job, we shouldn't even have to end up doing that. As as >> See, if that makes sense. The CIA Yeah, the CIA doesn't have any classes in interrogation. Because the CIA doesn't interrogate people. The FBI interrogates them. >> Mhm. >> But the CIA was so humiliated that it allowed 9/11 to happen. It was the greatest intelligence failure in
[23:23] American history. There was this sense that we needed revenge. We had to get revenge on these guys. Well, if the FBI has been trained since 1945 in how to carry out interrogations, don't you think the professionals should just do their interrogations? >> Yeah. >> You know, another thing, too. People say, "Well, you know, waterboarding it it never really hurt anybody." It actually did. Abu Zubaydah's heart stopped while we were waterboarding him. He had to be revived with CPR so that we could torture him more. Number one. Number two,
[23:56] where do you stop? What's the line? What about if you start cutting his fingers off one by one? What if you, you know, rape his wife with a broomstick in front of him? Or you beat his kids until they're unconscious in front of him. Where do you stop? Where do you draw the line? If if you've made a policy decision to just simply pretend that the law doesn't exist or to simply pretend that the law doesn't apply to you, then there's no point at which you have to stop.
[24:27] And then that's, you know, that's no better than Saddam Hussein's Iraq or, you know, any of the other countries that we we claim to be morally superior to. >> You know, hearing this story reminds me of just how dangerous, and I'm not saying the people of the CIA, but the agency as a whole, technically has been to our country if you're talking about what this country's all about. I mean, if we go back to JFK, what they have been accused of doing or being a part of or
[24:57] whatever. Um, you know, multiple times in history, they keep coming up as or some would argue CIA has been on the wrong side of history. I think that's fair to say on a couple of uh points. Um, but I just want to just really focus on you personally. Um, uh I guess tell us the moment you realized you were going to be the one that was going to be sacrificed. Nobody else. It was going to all fall on you. >> Yeah, it was January of uh Actually, it was earlier than that. I was going to say January of 2012. That's
[25:28] That's when I was arrested. But when I realized that they were going to try to pin it on me, it was December of 2007. And that's what made me decide to go public. Because when the president said, "We do not torture." A couple of days later, two days later, he's walking from the South Portico of the White House to the helicopter to go to Camp David for the weekend. And a reporter shouted a question at him about torture. Because just in the previous couple of weeks, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the uh
[25:59] International Committee of the Red Cross had all come out with papers saying that the CIA was torturing its prisoners. So, word was leaking out. But Bush turned in response to the question and he said, "Well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer." And I thought, "Oh, no, you don't. You're not putting this on me." And so, in response to a call from Brian Ross of ABC News, uh I called him back and I said, "I'll give you your interview." And I decided
[26:30] to simply to tell the truth. >> Yeah. As a prisoner, uh in because that's ultimately what happened, you were sent to prison, what was the biggest lesson you learned about how you were treated because you were labeled as a whistleblower who ended up in prison? >> That's actually a very complicated question to answer. Um, and there are multiple answers. Uh, on my very first day, I was walking past one of the guards and he just whispered, "traitor."
[27:00] As I was walking past him. And I just turned and smiled, shook my head like, "you [ __ ] retard." Um, but then another prisoner, another or sorry, a guard pulled me aside. And said, "Hey, I think what you did was really brave. I wanted to ask you, how can I apply to the CIA?" And I was like, "Oh, okay." And so I answered his question. So I I got both sides. The warden, I I was really I was really, you know, a burr on the butt of the warden. He didn't like me. I didn't respect him.
[27:34] And just to sort of get a little bit of revenge, I never turned down a media request. Which made them have to jump through hoops every time. Jake Tapper drove up to the prison to interview me. I gave multiple interviews to NPR and Time magazine and the New York Times and it was just constantly journalists coming to the prison, which just it drove them nuts. I enjoyed every minute of it. As far as the prisoners went, the other prisoners,
[28:05] um, shout out to Mark Lanzalotti, who became my best friend in prison and remains one of my best friends in life. Mark read in the New York Times on a Sunday that I was reporting to that prison on a Thursday, on the following Thursday. And he took it upon himself, cuz he's a good guy, to go to every one of the Italians, Italians named Gambino, Lucchese,
[28:37] Bonanno, Genovese. And he explained to them, "There's a CIA guy coming here on Thursday. There's a difference between the CIA and the FBI. He said, "The FBI is rats and cops. The CIA protected us from the Muslims." That's his words, not mine. And they welcomed me with open arms. Somehow a rumor got started among the Aryans that I was
[29:07] a Muslim killer. Um and one of them actually came right up to me and asked me, "Is it true that you were a hitman for the CIA and you killed Muslims?" And I was ready for the question. And I said, "Look, it was wartime and we all did things we weren't proud of." Which is not an answer to the question, but he was like, "Cool. Okay." And so the Aryans left me alone. Um four of my five cellmates were members of Mexican drug cartels and one
[29:39] of them asked me if I would write him if I would write his appeal cuz he was destitute. So I wrote his appeal. How how hard could an appeal possibly be? He lost the appeal. He was guilty. But I didn't charge him any money. And he told all the other Mexicans that I was a stand-up guy. And then there was a very fortuitous comment made by Louis Farrakhan of all people saying that I was a hero of the Muslim people because I stood up for their
[30:09] civil rights, their human rights. And it happened to be published in the Nation of Islam's newspaper the day that I arrived at the prison. And so word got around, you know, the Bloods, the Crips, and the Nation of Islam guys that I was okay. And so knock on wood, I never had a a single problem. Well, the only problems I ever had with were with the crooked [ __ ] guards. That was it. I never had a single problem with a prisoner that I couldn't handle. >> Yeah, you were um one of one essentially. Your story was one of one,
[30:41] right? >> exactly what it was. >> Yeah, that that is >> Yes. >> That's It It shows you the the humanity side of this type of situation, especially if you end up in prison. And um was it like a max prison? What what type of prison exactly? >> No. Um at sentencing uh my attorneys asked the judge to sentence me to a minimum security work camp. There are no bars on the windows, the doors are unlocked, you're free to just come and go as you please. The CIA was furious with that.
[31:11] And so after the judge ordered that I be sent to a minimum uh they upgraded me secretly. And so when I got there, they put me in the actual prison with the concertina wire and the armed guards and all that stuff. And I called my lawyer. It took me about 4 days to get access to a phone. I called my lawyer and I said, "Hey, they put me in the actual prison with the pedophiles and the drug kingpins and the mafia dons. So I said, "What do I do?" And he's like, "Oh my god." He said, "Well, we could file a motion, but uh
[31:42] but it'll be 2 years before we get a hearing." He said, "You'll be home by then. I'm sorry, buddy. You're just going to have to tough it out." And so I thought, "Now, you know what? I'm trained for this. I'm trained for a lot worse than this. I can make this work." And I did. I actually wrote a book about it called Doing Time Like a Spy, How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. And I won two literary awards. I won one of the big four. I won uh the PEN First Amendment Award, which with the PEN, Faulkner, the Pulitzer, and the Edgar Allan Poe are
[32:12] the three the four big uh big literary awards. And I won the Forward Reviews Memoir of the Year. So, I was ready for them. >> So, I really appreciate you going into depth about that personally because again, this is a story I think one of one, okay? >> Yeah. >> Um so, the CIA, FBI it seems throughout history have been in opposite of each other. >> Oh, yeah.
[32:43] >> You know, they have different missions, you know, and um who do you think is more to blame for 9/11? Do you Do you find it at the CIA or the FBI? >> There's plenty of blame to go around. The CIA and the FBI are equally culpable. Equally culpable. But so is the State Department because it issued visas to every one of those hijackers in the first place. Like what are you thinking? Um, you can you can even put some blame on on Congress.
[33:14] Like what the heck was Congress doing? They're supposed to have be oversight committees. Were they overseeing nothing? Were they overseeing their belly buttons? And they're allowing this terrorist planning to take place. And And what about uh What about the the FAA? Like did they really not care at all about airline security that you could let 19 guys onto planes with box cutters and not a single one of them set off a metal detector?
[33:44] So there's plenty of blame to go around. Let me ask you this as well cuz the other whistleblower that's probably more famous than you, Mr. Snowden, right? Um, do you find any similarities in your guys' stories or do you think it's two different separate >> Oh, no, no. I I do. I do. I think he's I think he's a bonafide American hero. I really do. You know, it's against the law for these organizations to spy on Americans. And thanks to Ed Snowden, we now know that
[34:16] most of what they do is spy on Americans. They just pretend the law doesn't exist. And they spy on us. So we wouldn't know that without Ed Snowden. Now he took off. Um, I didn't. I challenged them right to their faces. Um, but I I think what he did nonetheless was very brave. And uh and I'm glad he did it. I think that the American people are better informed because of him. >> So, then it it it begs the question, do
[34:48] you believe And I I and I don't know if this is the proper way to phrase it, but just be be patient with me here. Do you believe breaking the law is justified to show the American people that the government has been breaking the the law? And And And I'm not I don't know if that's the proper way to phrase it, but >> I I get exactly what you're saying, and I think the answer is yes, and I'll tell you why. There is a legal definition of whistleblowing. >> Right.
[35:18] >> It is bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. There is also a law in this country that makes it illegal to classify a crime. So, if there's a criminal act like torture, it is illegal to make that a classified program. And so, I think it's a patriotic duty to go public when the government is
[35:50] breaking the law. >> Yeah. So, what Yeah, essentially what you're saying, if the action that's being exposed, there's no way to protect that action legally, the absolutely you have the authority to go ahead and blow the whistle. >> You have to. >> And And both of you guys were charged with the same uh crime essentially, the Espionage Act, correct? >> Yeah, um in my case, all of the Espionage charges were dropped. I I hadn't committed espionage. >> No. >> What they did is they charged me with three counts of espionage. They waited
[42:35] >> In the beginning, you know, I was like, yeah, left person right. And then I I come to find out I'm like, well, uh the the the the left is just crazy, okay? And the right is just incompetent. I mean, there So, you you have two sides that aren't doing anything for the average American. And no wonder people are so um I guess disgusted might might be the word today. Um but I I love your story because it reminds me
[43:05] and maybe you think differently about this, but it reminds me today might appear to be very crazy. Um but hearing your story, I mean, that's a different era there. That that is on a whole another level than what what I'm seeing today. >> Yeah, it's it's bad. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And I'll tell you another thing, between 1917 when the Espionage Act became law and Barack Obama's presidency, 2009, three Americans were charged with espionage for speaking to the media.
[43:38] Just under Obama eight of us were charged with espionage for speaking with the media. Almost three times all previous presidents combined. And keep in mind that in many cases, the Espionage Act as a prosecution is a death penalty case. Is that really the country we want to be? >> Probably not. Probably not. >> think I would think not. >> And and that actually sums up my main statement about Democrats today is they're the very thing that they accuse everyone of being essentially.
[44:09] >> Exactly. >> Especially when I hear your story and and especially under Obama. And here's the other thing. Today we live in a time where there's alternative media, everybody has a camera, everybody has an opinion, you know. Imagine if that existed during Obama's presidency. I mean that would have been >> Seriously. >> Yeah. >> Seriously. Just to give you another indication where the Democrats are, too. Um I had a congressman here in in northern Virginia, uh Jim Moran. One of the loveliest guys, just a a good-hearted, kind, and and very
[44:42] generous person. And he gave a couple speeches on the floor of the house calling for my release from prison and and for a pardon. Neither of which, you know, took place uh in any kind of timely fashion. I I stayed in touch with Jim for a long time. He's still in the area, he's a lobbyist now. And I said to him one day, "What if we go to Senator Warner? Senator Warner at the time from Virginia was the chairman of the intelligence
[45:13] committee. We ask Warner to ask, you know, Obama to pardon me." And Jim said, "I have been in the room when Warner has said that you should be hanging from a tree." He said Warner's not going to help you. But that was the view of the Democratic Party. John Podesta goes to my church. And, you know, the the word was Hillary was going to win in 2016, Podesta was going to be chief of staff. So I went to to Father Steve up at Saint Sophia's Cathedral. And I said, "Hey Father, can you put me
[45:44] with Podesta?" And he's like, "Podesta?" He says, "Podesta's no friend of yours." >> Wow. >> You don't want to talk to Podesta. >> So what I'm I'm going to get to the final part of all of this. What years were you actually in prison? >> Uh February of 2013 to February of 2015. >> Got it. Okay. Okay, so that was um, before the uh, uh, election with Trump and Hillary essentially. >> Right.
[46:14] >> Um, did you ever have any experience with the first Trump administration when you got out? >> I did. I actually hired a lobbyist um, to help me try to get a, a pardon. Uh, she essentially took my money and I never heard from her again. >> Mhm. >> Uh, but then I struck up a friendship with Tucker Carlson. >> Okay. >> And Tucker put me on his show 11 times. And each time he would tell me, "Just look directly into the camera and speak directly to the president." And there
[46:45] was one night that I did that and the president was watching and he told Jared Kushner, "Look at this clip of this guy and tell me what you think." The next day, Jared Kushner's attorney, Abby Lowell, called my attorney, Bruce Fein, and said, "My client wants to see your client." I was so excited, I wanted to jump up and down. So, I my lawyer and I went to Abby Lowell's office and we met with Abby and with Jared Kushner.
[47:15] And at the end of the meeting, Kushner said he wanted a one-page paper. Three-quarters of the page, he wanted me to tell my story and the last quarter, he wanted me to explain why it would help, how it would help Donald Trump get reelected. So, we did that. And then we never heard back again. And then on the last day of the Trump presidency, um, Tucker called me and said, or it was the, the night before, Tucker called me and said, "Are you sitting down?" I was like, "Uh, now
[47:45] what?" I said. He goes, "He's going to pardon Lil Wayne." And I said, "Lil Wayne?" And he said, "Yeah." He said, "You have to come on the show one last time." So, the night it was January the 19th, 2021, I go on the show and I'm like, "Please, I'm begging you. Pardon me." And it just didn't happen. I'm I'm closer this time. I've applied again. I have fantastic support
[48:16] within the Republican Party. See, this is this is what I love about MAGA. You don't have to agree with everybody on every issue. But on these issues of war and peace and and civil liberties, we're in total agreement. >> No question. >> You know, total complete agreement. And so, I I have a lot of really solid support among high-level MAGA people. And so, we've we've sort of planned this
[48:46] out. We've written a a strong letter. I know that the letter's been delivered to the president. And I'm hoping for the best. >> Yeah. As we come to a close, um well, I I actually, first, I do want to say, for whatever MAGA is and what people believe it is or isn't, I think one thing's for sure, they are a disruption in the two-party the the two-party system. >> Yeah, and we need for it to be disrupted. Yes.
[49:17] >> And there was a poll by CNN that essentially said that when the president leaves, they will still exist after the fact. Uh and you know, we'll see what happens there. Um but your family, just really briefly, tell us about what happened to your family. Um where are you now with your family? And how does that all look? >> I'm single. Um I've got five kids. Several of them don't speak to me.
[49:49] Uh it's been a very high price to pay. Yeah. I You know what? I would tell you more, but there's a court order that prohibits me from doing that. >> Understood. No, I understood. Understood. I guess So, then it leads me to a probably a better question. What What are you hoping that your kids learn from you ultimately? If there's one lesson at all that that that they come to the realization on and say, "Okay, I I get why my father did this or now I understand what he wanted me to
[50:21] to to to learn." Could you share that with us? >> Yeah, it's And this is something I've tried to instill in all of them. It's all about telling the truth. It's all about protecting other people's human rights, people who can't protect themselves. You know, this is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. I'm And I took that very seriously. These politicians, they work for us. And by extension, the civil service
[50:52] employees work for us. If we're going to have rules and laws in this country, then they have to be abided by in every uh example. And so, you know, if you believe in your heart that what you're doing is right, then you have to go for it. You really do. It's all worth it. >> I love that. John, it's been really good. I I appreciate you sharing sharing the story. One of one. >> Thanks for having me.
[51:22] Thank you. >> Definitely >> Great questions. >> Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. >> Debora. I I Now, I appreciate you. Thank you. >> Yeah. We'll We'll We'll link your your books below this video and and your contact information. Uh but just to end it off on a positive note, uh what what's one positive thing you'd like to say to the American people about our future? >> Oh, we can we can fix this situation. And don't be wrapped up by partisan splits. The idea that we've got either Democrats
[51:54] or Republicans, that's a false division. The The ideological spectrum is not a straight line from left to right. It's a circle. And at one point it meets. And it's at that point that we can all work together. So, let's do that. >> I love that. Thank you so much, John, for for your time. >> Thank you. Good to meet you. >> Absolutely.