[00:05] Next year, we're going to invade Iraq. We're going to overthrow Saddam Hussein, and we're going to open the world's largest Air Force Base in Southern Iraq. We're going to remove all of our air assets from Saudi Arabia and send them to Iraq so that we can deprive Osama bin Laden of the ability to say that we are polluting the land of the two holy mosques. What year is this? 2002. So before he announced. He announced in March March 2003. Yeah. We went to
[00:35] >> No, this was this was May May 6th, 2002. Wow. So I was so dumbfounded. I said, "But we haven't caught bin Laden yet." >> Yeah. Like I thought everybody in the building, everybody in the agency is single-mindedly focused like a laser on Osama bin Laden. And he said, "Buddy, he said the decision's already been made. And there are battle lines already drawn." Wow. He said the pro-invasion faction was OVP, the Office of the Vice
[01:05] President, OSD, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and the National Security Council. And the anti-war faction was the CIA, the State Department, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Really? Mhm. Wow. Cuz the CIA we were like this with bin Laden. All we wanted was to kill bin Laden and to take al-Qaeda apart piece by piece. And then they want us to pivot over here to Iraq? Iraq hadn't done anything to us. What was the true nature of the Iraq war?
[01:36] I always believed it was revenge. From the first Gulf War. Yeah. Daddy Bush to son Bush. Precisely. Simply as that. >> I I really believe that it was that simple. Yes. Mhm. So what ended up happening, and this comes back to General Clark's interview, the night before we attacked Iraq, there was what was called a principals committee meeting. Mhm. So, the principals committee is chaired by the president and it includes the vice president, the
[02:08] national security advisor, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, the CIA director, and then a small smattering of people from the NSC, uh the director of intelligence programs, the senior director for the Middle East. I think that was it. For whatever reason that night, the president did not chair the meeting. He was not in the meeting. So, the meeting was chaired by Dick Cheney. Oh, and General Tommy Franks, the commander of CENTCOM, was there. So, Cheney, we have all these TV screens
[02:39] here. And and here at the head of the table is George Tenet. I'm sitting directly behind him. >> George Tenet is the CIA director I'm sitting directly behind him as his note taker. So, everybody, all the principals also get a note taker. So, here are the TVs. There's Cheney, there's Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, General Franks, this guy, that guy, the other guy. So, the vice president starts off by saying, uh "General Franks, why don't you begin by giving us the order of
[03:10] battle briefing?" I say this all the time. I hate order of battle briefings. They're so mind-numbingly boring. Mhm. I don't even know why they do them. They say, "Well, Mr. Vice President, uh we have elements of the first Army Corps are moving south, uh 20 clicks south of uh the oasis here, and then the the fourth uh military armored What I Who cares where your little men are? Yeah, well, I don't care where your little men are on the map. Is
[03:41] that where you want them to be? Okay, let's move on to something more interesting, right? So, George says, "Yeah, don't don't don't write that down. Don't write that down." So, I I I'm not even paying attention. So, Cheney is saying, "So, we're we're good to go for tomorrow. We're going to cross the the border at 6:00 a.m., right?" Which is like 11:00 p.m. that night Eastern time. And he says, "Mr. Vice President" I'll never forget it. "Mr. Vice President, if all goes as planned, we'll be in Tehran by August."
[04:13] And very discreetly, George leans forward and turns off his microphone. Like, you couldn't even notice it. Turns off the microphone, and he goes like this. "Did he say Tehran, or did he say Baghdad?" And I said, "He said Tehran." And George says, "Have they lost their minds?" >> [laughter] >> And then he turns the microphone back on, and he just sits there like this. George didn't say anything in the briefing. So, the meeting ends, and they're all like high-fiving each other at the end
[04:44] of the meeting. And one of these these from the NSC, he was the senior director for the for the Middle East. As we're getting up at the end of the meeting, he says, because he's an expert, he says, "When we cross that border tomorrow, they're going to throw flowers at us." So, I go back to the office. The deputy director says, "How did the Principals Committee meeting go?" And I said, "Did you know we were going to invade Iran?" And he goes, "Are they still talking about that? We're not going to invade Iran."
[05:16] And I said, "Do these people know nothing about history?" And he said, "No. They know nothing about history." But why was Iran on the table anyway? Cuz we hate Iran. Simply I simply because of that? >> That's it. So, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys, so we need to overthrow them. >> So, we didn't need a reason? No. No, no. See, this is that I'm glad you said that. This is a a little thing with me. When I when I debate um people who believe in conspiracy theories. Well,
[05:48] you know, 9/11 was an inside job because we needed a reason We don't need reasons to invade a country. If we don't like their face, we invade. We don't need to blow up the World Trade Center and kill 3,000 of our own people to say, "Oh my god, that means we have to invade Iraq or Afghanistan." >> So, why haven't we until now? Because we got bogged down every time we try it. By whom? By everybody. 20 years in Afghanistan and we lost? 18 years, 19 years in Iraq and we lost?
[06:22] >> longest war. Yeah. Afghanistan war. Yeah, in modern times. Yes. Every time we we launch one of these wars of liberation, we lose. But, right after Iraq, Afghanistan, we did wars of I mean, we didn't have boots on the >> Well, remember remember what Barack Obama said. Lead from behind. Yeah. The lesson that Obama learned. Yeah. Exactly. Let others do your dirty work. >> Yeah, Tunisia, have the CIA go to Libya
[06:53] >> Exactly. and overthrow Yeah, and and that didn't work out so well, did it? But, eventually we did overthrow him, didn't we? And it's still a basket case. And now we we long for the days of Muammar Gaddafi. When it was stable and we could buy that beautifully pure, sulfur-free Libyan oil. Are we influenced by anybody in order for us to take these actions? Are we influenced by any governments, foreign governments? You're just going to dangle that right in front of me, aren't you? >> I don't I'm I'm just I'm just [laughter]
[07:24] You know, So, this is the way I think. I'm pulling your leg. Of course, the answer is yes, of course we are. >> the way I think, you know, I look at a country just like a business and the business and the country have consultants and, you know, other entities that influence decision making. You know, and those decision makings can also have potential, you know, reasons for the person who's advising for them. >> Yes, indeed. You know, Yes, indeed. I can tell you in all the years that I was in the CIA, no matter who the president
[07:56] was, Benjamin Netanyahu, whether he was the Israeli ambassador to the United States, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, uh the minister of whatever, the prime minister, he would come and ask whoever happened to be the president, "You got to invade Iran. You got to invade Iran. I'm begging you. You got to invade Iran. Iran, Iran, Iran." And every president would say, "We're not going to invade Iran." Who? What? Why would we listen to them? Well, because AIPAC spends millions and
[08:26] millions of dollars I know, but AIPAC spends money on Congress, on Senate, on senators, congressional members, but eventually the commander-in-chief is the one who's going to make the decision. And they're donating to that campaign, too. You know, Sheldon Adelson didn't just decide from the goodness of his heart that he just happened to love Donald Trump's personality, and he's going to give 120 million dollars in 2016, which is what he gave, and then pay out of his own pocket for the American embassy to move from Tel Aviv
[08:58] to Jerusalem. Tell us Tell us the reason why that happened. Why did the embassy move? Because of AIPAC. Uh What was the purpose of that? Just to show support for the Israelis. That's it. Simple as that. It was simple as that. >> From Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? The embassy was always in Tel Aviv, right? Because Jerusalem was was disputed territory. And so, in 1993, Congress, under pressure from AIPAC, passed a law moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, but freezing the move
[09:28] until there was a formal peace treaty between the Israelis and the Palestinians. >> And so, that's why, even though the law passed in 1993, the embassy never moved. And then Donald Trump said screw the Palestinians. He closed the PLO office in Washington. He expelled all the Palestinian diplomats and then moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Was this bef- I don't remember when the Abraham Accords were. Was this after or before that? >> It was It was just before. Just before. >> It was just before the Abraham Accords.
[09:59] The Abraham Accords actually helped that for the moving of the embassy, you know, for for all these other nations. The embassy moved first and then within the next 10 or 12 months the Abraham Accords were signed, yeah. Right. You know, when I was in Bahrain, I served in Bahrain from 1994 to 1996. And this is immediately post-Oslo, like less than 12 months post-Oslo. Oslo where was where Israel and the Palestinians came to an agreement. Oslo Accords. Right, the Oslo Accords. So,
[10:30] all of a sudden there's this flurry of, you know, peacemaking activity. Clinton, right? Clinton, correct. And so, each one five of the six, not including Saudi Arabia, but but Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the United Arab Arab Emirates each decided to host a different component of peace talks. So, in Bahrain we hosted the Arab-Israeli peace talks on the environment, right? So, these like senior-level Israeli political
[11:02] officials, diplomats, the Minister of of environment, the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, the Israeli Ambassador to the United States, they all came to the conference. In Oman, it was the peace talks on like fish and wildlife or something like that. Everybody had a role to play. Yeah. Except the Saudis. Saudis wanted nothing to do with this. And we thought, okay, you know, by 1996, this is crazy, but there's going to be peace in the Middle East.
[11:33] Until there wasn't. And then they started fighting again, and the Israelis started killing more people, and then everybody just pulled out, and that was the end of it. And then with the Abraham Accords, what the Israelis were successful in doing was splitting the Arabs. Right? So the Tunisians open relations, the Emiratis open relations. >> Yeah, you are The Bahrainis Uh Saudis Not yet. No way. But they're they're >> The Sudanese, the Moroccans
[12:05] >> Yeah. They all opened embassies in uh in Jerusalem. Okay, so where does that leave the Palestinians? Yeah. If you can't rely on your Arab brothers, where most of your people are living and working anyway who can you rely on? The last ones were the Saudis. And now the Saudis until October 7th, the Saudis were engaged in in talks with the uh yeah. >> then We're becoming a friendly Arab nation to the Israelis. Exactly. >> I have a question for you. You're mentioning that it's because of AIPAC,
[12:35] it's because of money, it's because of people like Sheldon, you know, Adelson. >> Yeah. If it wasn't the Israelis or, you know, that community would it be possible for a different community? I don't know, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Armenians >> To take the lead? >> No, to have a similar approach. Oh, listen. Have an Armenian AIPAC? >> Oh, yeah. There should be. I think I think AIPAC >> is a lobbying group, but I want to understand, you know, everything is like the Greeks. It's AIPAC, it's because of AIPAC. So No, AIPAC should be the model. Listen, the the AIPAC people AIPAC's
[13:07] been around for a long time, since the '50s, but they really do it right. They know exactly how to raise money and how to organize politically. And and their strategy is to take no prisoners. You're either with them or you're against them. There's no middle road. And they put their money where their mouths are. You know, they don't just send $250 to a to a congressional campaign. They'll send $500,000 to a congressional campaign. And if you vote wrong on Israel, they will primary you.
[13:39] And the chances are they're going to beat you. And they're going to beat you with somebody who's pro-Israel and will vote exactly the way they want them to vote. >> But I want to understand this concept. Everybody is in so many words bitching about AIPAC. >> Right. If it If it wasn't AIPAC, it was again, I'm bringing an example, the Jordanian PAC. And the Jordanians had as much influence, >> you know, you think we >> I think no. And I think no. >> be the same concept of America pro-Jordan, America doing everything for
[14:10] the sake of >> so. you know, No, I think it's because So what's the what's what's the you know, the the the specialty of of Israel or the Israeli >> that American Jews are highly educated and they tend to be on the whole wealthier than the average demographic in America. They've also been in America since there was an America. So >> So they've had, you know, two and a half centuries to to plan and to strategize
[14:44] and to be involved in the in political life. And yeah, fundraising, banking, Hollywood, >> Hollywood, education, they're successful. They're They're They're probably the most successful ethnic group in America. The Greeks like to say that we're the highest educated and second wealthiest group with with American Jews being the most successful. >> I thought it was the Armenians. The Armenians are pretty darn good. >> [laughter] >> They're pretty darn good. They're just
[15:14] The problem is there aren't enough of you. >> Yeah. Um Well, we're actually plus or minus worldwide. I think there's a total of maybe 12 13 million Jews all over the world. And there's about 10 million Armenians worldwide. So, we're not Wow, okay. >> at least 1 million >> Well, then see this this goes to prove >> in California. And that's where that's the seat of your power right here in California. >> Yeah. That that's why I think ethnic
[15:46] ethnically oriented lobbying groups should really take a good look at AIPAC because everything they've done, they've done right. Should that be banned in America? >> No, but I'll tell you what should be different. >> lobbying groups because there's for instance the Turkish lobby Yeah. is very wealthy. Tell me about it. >> They are no different than AIPAC. Any congressional member in middle of America, middle of nowhere they donate a bunch of money and the first thing they do is take him to Ankara Yep. or you know, Turkey and give them a massive
[16:18] beautiful tour with the red carpet and a limo just like the Israelis >> do. Taking them to Israel and going, you know, to the wall and making sure they take a have a picture of of praying there. Right. Or you know, so Absolutely right. So, should that be banned in America? Should a foreign ethnic lobbying group be banned in America if they're constantly advocating for their home country of Turkey and Armenia and Israel. I would say
[16:49] that the Supreme Court would probably find that a ban would violate the First Amendment, but but and this is important AIPAC is different from all these other lobbying groups because every other lobbying group, ethnic lobbying group has to register with the Justice Department as a foreign agent. >> Foreign agent, exactly. AIPAC is not registered as a foreign agent. does not register as a foreign agent. Why? I don't know, Well, tell me. You've You've been in the government. I don't know. They get a free pass. Why? By
[17:20] whom? By which Which department, you know, which Well, it starts with justice, but but the bad guys in that scenario are Congress. Congressional members. And because of again, donations, AIPAC, they will overthrow you. It's all about the money. Pretty much. It's about the money and the continuation of political power. Yes. It's interesting. >> I I've said before that my very first week on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and I knew this was going to happen cuz I had been told by colleagues it's
[17:52] going to happen. I was there, I don't know, 3 days, 4 days, whatever, and these two guys come into my office. I shared the office with three other people. I said, "May I help you?" "Hi. Welcome to Capitol Hill." I said, "Uh this is not my first stint on Capitol Hill, but thank you. May I help you?" >> Yeah. "Yeah, we're from AIPAC. That's the American Israel Public Affairs Committee." I said, "Yes, I'm I'm aware of what AIPAC is." "We would like to invite you on an all-expenses-paid
[18:22] trip to the Holy Land." "Not to Israel." To the "To the Holy Land." I said, "Oh, no, thank you. I can I can do my own vacations." "Oh, it won't cost you a thing, and it's it's approved by the Senate Ethics Committee." I said, "No, I know that it is, and I appreciate it, but" >> legal bribery. >> Yeah. It's exactly what it is. And three or four of my colleagues took the trip. I didn't take the trip. I mean, look I'm I'm not I'm not saying
[18:54] anything for them not to do it because every lobbying group does that. >> Sure. Armenians do it. >> Sure. Greeks do it. >> Greeks do it. Turks do it. Now, another massive lobbying group emerging and spending millions and billions of dollars are the Azeris. The Azeris >> Yes. The Azeris. They are spending massive dollar amounts >> going to be a problem. >> on the United States to make sure they are loved and liked. >> People don't even have shoes and they have money for lobbyists. >> Yes, I mean they have oil. They have,
[19:25] you know, they have >> They do. They have oil. >> They're they're opening opening up pipelines to Europe. Yeah, they are. >> They are best friends of Israel. Israel Israel gave them >> and Turkey. And yeah, Turkey they're they're half half brothers. >> Yes, they are. They're half brothers. That's a good way to put it. >> Uh Israel is there one of their closest ally. Yes. >> And Israel is a tool to use America. You know, I've watched the Azeris for a long time only because I'm Greek American and the way we were raised and you are probably the same way, but we were raised that the Armenians are our brothers. Right? We
[19:57] went through We went through the the massacre together. They killed the Armenians, they killed the Syriacs, they killed the the Greeks. Um in fact, my mother's my mother's parents were were escapees from the Pontian massacre. Um so we have this this bond. Well, the Azeris were always on the wrong side of that issue. You know? And the Azeris can't get along They can't get along with the Armenians. They don't get along with the Greeks. They don't get along with the Russians anymore. They don't get along with the Iranians. >> They're exactly like Turks. Who does
[20:28] Turkey get along with right now? Turkmenistan. Nobody. Exactly, Turkmenistan and maybe Pakistan. >> Maybe. Right? >> Maybe. >> They don't get along with anybody. The Russians I mean, they're great diplomats. They're fan I mean, they are. >> They have the NATO's what? First I mean, in in the region I think they have the NATO's second or third largest military. Yeah, they do. Uh yeah, it's the United States, Germany and Turkey. Yeah, so they're a massive massive country. They have what? How many million? 150 160 million people,
[20:59] right? >> And they've been they've been around the block for a while and they've been playing every single game and it's been all the time, every single time it's been great for them. They have never been punished for anything. Whatever they've been doing. >> Absolutely true. You know? And why? Because of their lobbying, you know, efforts here in the United States. I mean, for God's sakes, they came here to the to the US, Erdogan had a meeting at the White House, and then there was there were these Armenian protesters
[21:30] outside. Oh, yeah. So, the secret not the Secret Service uh Erdogan's Erdogan's Secret Service >> Right. went out there. Yes. >> They fought the protesters. >> Literally physically fought the protesters. Yeah. Nothing happened. >> No. Nothing. And this was all over the news, by the way. This was Despite the fact that later, 6 12 months later, whatever it was, a court ruled that the Secret Service was wrong to not arrest the Turks on the spot. That those Turks did not have diplomatic immunity. They aren't They aren't accredited by the
[22:02] They're visiting. They're guests. They're not accredited by the State Department, and that they should have been arrested and prosecuted, and they weren't. >> Diplomatic immunity only goes for what? The ambassador, people at the embassy, People at the embassy. You have to be What happens is you arrive in the country, and then your embassy sends a letter to the State Department saying, "The diplomats have just arrived are these people, and these are their spouses." So, then they are accredited as a diplomat to your country. >> Yes. If you happen to land at Dulles
[22:33] Airport and you have a diplomatic passport, that does not mean you have any immunity at all. >> to let the State Department know. Right. And the State Department has to accept your credentials. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying. These these foreign foreign lobbying groups are just, you know, getting America by its balls. Does Israel have America by its balls? >> Yeah, I think so. Yes. You know, I I had a friend. He He died a couple of years ago, but he was he was the the second wealthiest Greek American.
[23:03] Completely self-made Greek Cypriot. Nicos Mouyiaris, this guy was a giant in in my recent life. And he told me one time, he's like, "Look, I I came here penniless. I came as an as an illegal immigrant. He borrowed $10,000 from his sister and $5,000 from his brother while he was working on a PhD in chemistry. And he opened a company called Mana Cosmetics Uh-huh. that became the world's largest manufacturer of
[23:34] cosmetics and women's makeup. Okay? Multi-billionaire. And generous, uh that's a whole different story. But anyway, he said that he called together this group of like the 10 richest Greek Americans. >> Mhm. John Catsimatidis in New York and Paul Mitchell, the shampoo guy, he's Greek. Um all the wealthiest ones. And he said, "Look at us. We're the richest Greeks in this country. And where are we meeting? In the back
[24:04] room of some restaurant." Mhm. He said, "Why don't we own a skyscraper? The Israelis do. Mhm. Or the Jewish Americans do. Why don't we? Why don't we pool our money and buy influence in Washington? Why is it only AIPAC? How come the Greek lobby the Greek lobby is actually two guys in a small building at Dupont Circle? Why? What's wrong with us? Why? They couldn't answer him. So, at that meeting, they agreed to continue
[24:35] meeting every month until they could build something like AIPAC built and invest in the community. And you know what happened? What? There was never a second meeting. He's like, "What am I going to do? I can't force them." Yeah. There's the Greek lobby. Is it Do you think it's a cultural thing? It's like every man for himself kind of a >> I >> think these I think that American Jews have such
[25:07] a deep love of Israel and such a deep cultural connection to Israel that they see it as their cultural duty as Jewish Americans. The Greeks don't feel that way. >> some kids go to Israel to serve in the army. So many of them do. I'll tell you what, I I grew up in a I grew up in a city that was much more heavily Muslim than it was Jewish. There was there was one small um Jewish synagogue, but we had several
[25:38] mosques. There was a mosque for the Arabs who came between like 1900 and 1920. Then there was a mosque for for the South Asians that came later on in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s. And then there was a third mosque so that the conservative South Asian Muslims had their conservative mosque where the men were on one side, the women were on the other and there was a a divider going down the middle. And then there was like the liberal mosque that they didn't so much follow those rules so closely. We didn't really have Jews in our in our city growing up. But there there were a
[26:09] handful but not many, mostly Muslims. Um but then you go you go to a bigger city like Washington and they really had their act together. They'd been doing this since what is it? 52? 50 1955? Yeah, something like that. And then they really started going quickly in the early 70s when Richard Nixon made it American policy to support Israel
[26:41] no matter what. That was a change in American policy. That is so interesting. >> Everything changed. >> Because I don't know if you've seen his interviews after he was president. >> He like Israelis. That's what I'm saying. And he we So, I'm surprised why why he was >> was all about the vote. It was all politics. I mean, he was a one-term president. >> He No, no. Well, yeah. Yeah, one and a half. Um he would even criticize Israel in kind of racist terms to Henry Kissinger's face. And he was Jewish.
[27:12] >> Jewish, yeah. Yeah. Do you think >> 54. 1954. Do Do you think Israel plants people like Jeffrey Epstein here Absolutely, yes. >> and to use, you know, such compliments Absolutely, yes. for their foreign foreign policies. >> I I'm on record as saying uh I I I took real from from the former head of Mossad and uh from Alan Dershowitz and others who are,
[27:43] you know, Who was Who was on the list? >> camp. Who was on the list? But he kept his underwear on. Um 86-year-old man being massaged by a 16-year-old, but he kept his underwear >> Underwear on. So, I went on the Piers Morgan show and it was Danny Was it Danny Ayalon? He was the head of Mossad. He's an elderly man now, but Yatom. Danny Yatom. Thank you. >> Yes. So, it was Danny Yatom and and Alan Dershowitz against um Scott Horton and me. Mhm.
[28:14] Who is Who is Scott Horton? Scott is one of the most brilliant libertarian thinkers in America today. Scott I I ran into Scott on Wednesday. Is he is Okay. This guy I'll tell you what. I I've been on a bunch of shows with Scott. And I could just sit there like this and just enjoy listening to him speak. >> Let him rip him apart. He's so smart and so well read and so well reasoned. I don't know how he keeps all the information in his head.
[28:45] Brilliant. He won a big award the other day from the Association of Independent Journalists. Um anyway, Piers asked me if I thought Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli Mossad agent. I said, "Absolutely positively yes." And generally at home, he he sat there like this the whole show. He just goes, And then Dershowitz is like,
[29:15] "I object to that." And you constantly interrupting. It's not my nature to interrupt. Or if I do, I apologize for interrupting. Finally, Piers told him, "Will you just shut your mouth and let the man answer the question?" So, I said, "Look, the Israelis have always spied on the United States deeply." I said, "On my very first day at the CIA, where all the new hires were sitting in the in the CIA auditorium called the bubble, and we're getting briefed by like the head of insurance and the head of this
[29:47] and the head of that and this is how you fill out your time card and this is how you pick your health insurance and and the head of security came to brief us. And um he said the most important thing that we're going to need to consider is the issue of counterintelligence. There are enemies behind every bush. And they all want to know what we're working on and what we know about them. We have to protect ourselves. So, he said, "Rule number one,
[30:18] there's a steakhouse right down the road. It's the nearest restaurant to the CIA's headquarters. Don't ever go in that restaurant. Why? Because the KGB thinks that we all eat at that restaurant. So, anytime the day or night, everybody in that restaurant is a KGB agent waiting for the CIA guy to come in and who who forgot to take his badge off. Right? Yeah. Don't ever go in that restaurant. Secondly, he said,
[30:48] "Even our friends spy on us." He said, "Many of you will come into contact with the two Israeli intelligence officers who are based at the Israeli Embassy in Washington. There's a representative from Mossad and a representative from Shin Bet." He said, "The FBI has been able to identify 187 undeclared Israeli Mossad agents spread all across the United States
[31:19] >> Wow. spying on our defense contractors to steal our defense secrets. Now, we give the Israelis 99% of what we have. They want to steal that last 1%. There's a famous story when we built the F-35. We said to them, "Look, we developed this new fighter jet. It's stealth. It's this. It's that. It's amazing. Everybody's going to get it. It's the F-35." They said, "We want it." We said, "Great. We're going to give it to you. We're going to call it the F-35i for Israel.
[31:49] And we're going to just very slightly degrade the avionics. So, God forbid if it's shot down by the Iranians or the Syrians or the Russians and they get the avionics, they won't be able to duplicate it." >> Mhm. They said, "No. We want the F-35 Wow. with with the avionics." We said, "No." They said, "No. Okay." So, they're trying to steal the avionics. At the same time, the UAE came to us and said, "Hey, we want that F-35." And we said, "Great. We're going to give it to you. We're going to call it the F-35e.
[32:22] E for Emirates. And we're going to slightly degrade the avionics so God forbid if the Iranians shoot it down, they can't get it and reverse engineer it." They said, "Fine. No problem." But the Israelis are here to steal Why? I don't know. That's I never was able to comprehend. I mean, such a friendly nation who shares intelligence Well. constant base Not not them, us. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. You're 100% right. Yes.
[32:52] >> constantly all the time. Right. And we sell all types of weapons to Israel, [snorts] and that's why it's such a small country. >> Right. But yet so powerful, right? Yeah. Why still try to steal secrets? Why still have these agents? >> Israelis truly believe that they're alone in the world. Really? >> They truly believe it. >> their culture, that's their psychology. >> It is. Yes, to both. >> Trust nobody but themselves. >> Mhm.
[33:22] Tell us the story about when the CIA stopped accepting gifts from from >> Yeah, when I my my very first liaison briefing was very early in 1990. I was brand new. I'd only been in the CIA for three or four months. And my boss said, "Hey, you're going to do your first liaison briefing." Now, when you're in the Directorate of Intelligence, you're declared to a whole bunch of foreign intelligence services, especially when you work on an enemy country like Iraq, like I did. So, you
[33:53] know, most people go through their entire 30-year careers, and they're declared to two or three four or five foreign intelligence services, where the CIA says to the head of the other intelligence service, "This is my guy. He's a CIA officer." Okay, so you're declared. They know you're a CIA officer cuz you told them you are, okay? So, the Israelis would come to headquarters for their briefings. We We call them intelligence exchanges. And um they would always bring gifts.
[34:26] Right? But the gifts would always have listening devices embedded in them with batteries. Like they brought this big seal of the CIA. Oh, we made this beautiful seal of the CIA as a gift for you. You should put it in the director's conference room. And it's completely embedded with microphones and batteries. And we're like, guys, you you got to stop doing this. You can't do this. Well, it got to the point where >> when you like bluntly say, "Hey." Oh, oh, well. You can't blame us for trying. >> [laughter] >> It's not funny. There is there's no
[34:57] consequence. There's like No, cuz then they're going to go to the Washington Post and say, "The CIA is being mean to us." And then Congress is going to get involved. Say, "What's the matter with you?" Do you think I mean you with certainty you said Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent working here in the US as a sleeper cell or whatever they call it. >> he was an access agent, which is a very specific kind of One directorate, right? Is that Is that what it means an access agent? When you have one directorate, you have to complete this task.
[35:28] >> No. What it means is let's say you're you're the head of Mossad and you want to know exactly what's going on in Bill Clinton's mind or Prince Andrew or Bill Gates or any of these other people. You're not going to recruit Bill Clinton. He's not going to take your money and then report back to you like you know, behind the 7-Eleven at 11:00 at night. So, you do the next best thing. You recruit an agent
[35:59] who's friends with Bill Clinton or who can become friends with Bill Clinton. >> So, you tell me he wasn't an agent, he became one. He was recruited to become an agent. Okay, that's what it was. So, initially, you know, speaking of Ghislaine Maxwell, her dad being a Mossad agent >> be surprised if her dad said to Mossad, "Listen, my daughter's friendly with this guy. You might want to take a look at him." I see. Mhm. And do you think that shapes uh foreign policy.
[36:29] 100% Yes. >> You have these compromats at this these types of people of, you know, this caliber, this level, and we're not even sure if they have anything on Trump. And that's why Trump just like this attacks Iran without a question, right? >> Yep. Is that a possibility? >> Yes. Okay. Now, Trump will say that Netanyahu came, asked him to bomb Iran, he said no.
[37:00] This time Netanyahu said, "If you don't, we're going to use nuclear weapons." So, Trump did the right thing. He did the the friendly thing of bombing them with non-nuclear weapons, so he actually saved a lot of Iranian lives. I mean That's that's what he wants the the storyline to be. We have no idea what the truth is. You spoke of conspiracy theorists. I mean, uh the recent Charlie Kirk assassination. Do you think in any way, shape, or form this was planned by
[37:31] I don't know, a foreign government or a a group, a deep state of people to just make sure his voice is not heard anymore because he was changing hearts, minds, and souls. He was changing the culture of America. It's it's certainly possible. Listen, I'm the least conspiracy-minded person that you will encounter. >> 99.9% of the time, what you see is what you get. It Really? >> Yeah.
[38:02] There are so many moving parts in a conspiracy. And and most of these organizations that we're talking about, CIA, FBI, Mossad, they are such big, slow, lumbering bureaucracies full of a lot of stupid people. I mean, I can see they get caught. >> Yeah, they get caught. That for everything to just hum perfectly and never be revealed and nobody ever ever leaks. Could Could it be outside
[38:34] sources, outside people, you know, outside entities? It could be a compartmentalized operation where, you know, so few people know about the operation that they could pull it off. >> What is the one one conspiracy you believe in? What's the one conspiracy that I believe in? I believe that elements of the CIA were involved in the killing of John Kennedy. I believe elements of the Israeli government were involved in the killing
[39:05] of John Kennedy. >> Really? I do. Again, the Israelis. Mhm. What What What Which part Which element puts it together? >> was waiting for the president to declassify all of the remaining JFK documents. Right? >> Yes. He said he did. >> Uh-huh. He didn't. Not all of it, yeah. No. There's still several thousand pages and I'm told that they point directly at the Israelis. Really? >> Mhm. What would be the benefit of of of them taking it?
[39:35] >> asked Kennedy for nuclear technology to build a bomb. And he said that he would never give them nuclear technology to build a bomb. >> And at the time, Kennedy wanted to inspect Israeli nuclear sites. >> Exactly. Right? Exactly. And I mean, and we did. We went there, we inspected it just like we did in in in Iran, right? And Iraq, both. >> And in and Iraq, yeah. And uh You put lead seals, you put cameras, you have spot inspections. The system works. Yeah. And of course, we never found any,
[40:08] but we all know that Israel has Yeah. numerous nuclear weapons. Yeah. In fact, on that Piers Morgan show, um I I told a a little story about a friend of mine who retired from the CIA and started writing books, just pumping out books, one or two a year. And he's a brilliant writer, and the books are on these really obscure foreign policy issues, like
[40:38] US relations with India during the Kennedy administration, or US relations with Saudi Arabia during the Franklin Roosevelt administration. I love them, but he probably sold 10 or 15 copies. Anyway, he he wrote this book about the history of nuclear weapons. It was like a short history of of nuclear weapons. And we always everything we write, we have to send to the CIA for clearance by the publications review
[41:09] board. They [snorts] sent back his manuscript, and it only had three words blacked out. Israeli nuclear program. That's it. And he said, "It's not our secret. Like we we don't have classification authority over the Israeli nuclear program. It's not up to us to protect the secrecy of Israel's nuclear program." And they they said, "That's the policy." >> So, where's that policy coming from? Where's that directorate coming from
[41:41] from constantly protecting a foreign government? >> It's It's It It originates with AIPAC. Even in the CIA? Absolutely. Because remember, the CIA is not a policy organization, it's a policy support organization. So, the policy is made at the White House at the NSC or the State Department, >> [clears throat] >> and then it filters down to the CIA. So, if the pressure's on the president, the president then gives the policy to the National Security Advisor, who gives it gives it to the CIA director. Is the
[42:11] CIA's budget still classified? >> Oh, yeah. It always will be. It always will be. Yeah. What would you guess to make it at? Well, it was accidentally leaked. If you want to take a look at Mary Margaret Graham CIA budget. I worked for Mary Margaret who is one of the most horrible humans I've ever encountered in my life. And she accidentally leaked the budget. 44 billion >> And that was dollars >> 15 years ago.
[42:42] That was 15 years ago. >> I assume it's close to 100 right now. >> 100 billion [clears throat] by now. Yeah. >> So, that's the second person you hate after John Brennan. Yeah. Yeah. I hate Mary Margaret Graham. I have another very a very interesting question. Where do you think the world is going right now with BRICS Oh, yeah. United States >> I really believe Do you fear anything that might happen in the next >> 10, 20 years? >> Yeah, I do. Um
[43:14] I think that we are watching the backside of the American empire. Yeah. Our our defense budget is unsustainable. We spend a trillion dollars a year just at the Pentagon. A trillion dollars a year. We have a national [clears throat] debt. What is it? 13 trillion and we add 2 trillion every year? 35 trillion? Yeah. 35 trillion. And and we add 2 trillion a year. We we can't In just a few years, we're
[43:44] not going to be able to pay the interest on the debt. Why? And listen, I've been to China, maybe you have, too. How come I can't have bullet trains in my country that go 350 miles an hour? How come our airports look like Khartoum Airport and you don't you don't even want to sit down cuz they're filthy and they're run down. >> you've been to LAX. It's we should be ashamed of ourselves. >> Especially in a city like this. Especially. We're going to have the Olympics. >> Especially. Exactly.
[44:16] Why can't we have bridges that don't fall into the rivers below them? And I'm looking at Pittsburgh and Minneapolis. >> Mhm. You know, how come our highways are pockmarked with potholes? The Chinese highways aren't. It's because we spend so much money on the military. >> Do you think for us just to still have that American dominance all over the world? But what's it getting us? Look at what's happening right now. I think there several major mistakes
[44:48] we've made. One is this outlandish defense budget. We're throwing the money away and we can't account for it, right? PWC tried for years to audit the Pentagon budget. They just gave up and walked away. Number two, the overuse of sanctions. In Iran. They lack for nothing. Nothing. I mean Russia. Russia. Their economy is actually stronger >> Yeah. post-sanctions than it was before. >> I mean the ruble went up a little bit,
[45:19] you know, but But they lack for nothing in Iran. Nothing. Whatever they need, they make themselves. If they can't make it, they buy it from the Indians, the Chinese, or the Russians. And then Trump just announced last week he's going to sanction the judge in in Brazil because the judge found Bolsonaro guilty. Talk about interference. Yeah. Collusion. In a sovereign nation. He's putting sanctions on He's threatening sanctions on
[45:50] the Netherlands because of the International Criminal Court, sanctions on the British, sanctions on the French because they declared they announced a recognition of Palestine. Well, we've gotten to the point where we're sanctioning everybody. >> with everybody. >> Yeah, and nobody gives a anymore. >> just changed against Russia. I don't know if you >> It did. Today. Today. He met with Zelenskyy this afternoon. >> Yes. So, I think that the that the world has just
[46:22] [clears throat] decided, we're not just we're just not going to do business with the United States if this is how they're going to be. Well, let me add one other thing. I happen to be in China last year for a conference, business conference. And um and I couldn't use my credit card anywhere. But, everybody took this thing called the Octopus card. Uh-huh. So, finally I said to one of these shopkeepers, I go, "What is this Octopus card?" He said, "Oh, it's the Chinese credit card." I said, "Why don't you just use MasterCard and Visa?" And he said, "Ah, because those go
[46:52] through New York and they make us liable for sanctions. Mhm. These go through Shanghai. And then we don't care what the Americans do." And I was like, "Brilliant. Exactly." Now, what happens when the BRICS countries finally announce a unified currency? We're screwed. Do you think that's going to happen? >> I do. Really? >> Not tomorrow, not next year, not in the next 5 years, but eventually yes, it's going to happen. >> that's what Gaddafi wanted to do and look what happened to North Africa. >> And and almost got there, but there's a big difference between overthrowing and
[47:24] killing Gaddafi and overthrowing Chinese, the Russians, the Indians, the Brazilians, the South Africans. Yeah. No, I I understand, you know, of course there's a massive difference. But, do you think this is the end or the near of the end of the American empire? I do. Really? I think we're we're seeing the very beginning of the end. >> of the end. We're on the backside of it. What's going to cause it just to flip it and sink it? I think BRICS eventually. First of all, look at the Chinese. Could
[47:55] the Chinese have been any smarter in the way they've played this over the last 50 years? >> They're very smart. I mean brilliant. They have their their economy grew like nothing. It's unprecedented in the in world history. >> triple their economy since since since since the 90s when Clinton opened up the China China you know trade. I mean it wasn't only Clinton, excuse me, Nixon. Nixon introduced >> who started it. >> Nixon introduced the the Chinese you know trade. I think he was the first president to uh go to China.
[48:26] >> Yeah, he was the he was, right? Yeah, that's where the the phrase only Nixon could go to China came from. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> And and since then I mean that country just transformed. I mean there is it was an industrial revolution. It was a technological revolution. >> It really was. And until today it's still happening. Yes, their real estate sucks. Yes, their real estate you know I mean they're destroying building after building city after city because nobody can now afford it. You know, they're not building anymore,
[48:57] but so is the world economy. It's not only only this Yeah, he was on the back of your chair for a long time. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But uh where was I going with this? >> Yeah, the Chinese economy. >> Yeah, the Chinese economy and now it's the Chinese economy, Indian economy. It's projected that India is going to take over China >> That's right. >> next 20 years. >> That's exactly right. >> the Russians >> Yeah, they have their own problems. >> Yeah, exactly, but all these massive countries coming together, but they still their total GDP is less than the
[49:30] US GDP. >> Yeah, still. But in 10 years they're going to tie us in 10 years. And then it's going to be the Chinese century. I'm really worried about Yeah. John thank you so much. >> Thank you. Good to meet you. >> Uh this was by far my favorite podcast, my favorite interview. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. I I and I sincerely mean this with a smile. Thank you very >> This was you are such an incredible human and you're speaking of your friend
[50:00] who keeps all the memory and I said, "I don't know how you do it." I mean, you know day by day, date by date, you know, these names of from Afghanistan. I I can't even remember you just mentioned them, you know. There you