[00:00] Uh, first of all, I don't believe a word he says about uh being in contact with the CIA. If anybody at the CIA were in contact with him, they would have to report it immediately. You have 24 hours to report contact with an un uh cleared person. So, I think he's making that up. When it comes to the FBI, though, you know, any slob can roll out of bed and log on to fbi.gov and fill out a report that's going to be ignored for the next 100 years. I strongly suspect that he's inflating this to make it look like he's
[00:31] doing something or is somebody that he's not. And I'll I'll tell you exactly why. I uh I had knowledge of a major fraud involving more than $100 million. I literally could not get an appointment with the FBI. The reason I wanted to report it was because I stumbled into it and I didn't want to be involved with it. I couldn't get an appointment with the FBI. Finally, I contacted a former deputy director of the FBI to tell him. He got me the appointment at the FBI. In the first 10 seconds that I was there,
[01:01] the FBI agent put up his hand and said, "Buddy, if this doesn't include the words terrorism, Russia, or China, we're not interested." And that was the end of the meeting. So, I mean, confidential informant is a term of art in in the FBI. So, if the FBI calls him or calls anybody and and he answers their questions, he dishes out dirt. >> That's it. >> Is he Is he a confidential informant or is he just an informant or is there a distinction that matters? >> Yeah, he's a confidential informant, which you and I I think would call a rat. >> Right. >> If the FBI is looking for somebody just to rat people out, they'll call and say,
[01:32] "Hey, you have anything for me?" And he says, "Oh, James O'Keefe, he's he's a not a good guy. He's a bad guy." "What can you give me on James O'Keefe?" "Oh, he overspent on Ubers." >> Right. >> So, he's acting as a confidential >> informant. And and if he and if he embellishes to the FBI or he uses hyperbole, he spent $2 million on private jets, which is untrue, that's he's still a an informant. He's just informing >> And and committing a felony. >> Which is a crime to lie to the FBI. >> That's right. It's a crime to lie to the FBI. >> Um we have another clip here on the SDNY. This is this is I'm feeding the
[02:04] SDNY tons of [ __ ] Let's play this clip. >> I've got him dead to rights on so much fraud. I've already fed the Southern District tons of [ __ ] I've got more. >> Yeah. >> And I'm one of I'm not special. I don't think he's more special. But he's a [ __ ] scumbag. That's why I fed the Southern [clears throat] District tons of [ __ ] trying to get him. >> Uh so the people ask questions >> him dead to rights. >> uh SDNY which I interpret the SDNY which is a very interesting Do you know anything about the SDNY? >> It's it's called the Southern District
[02:35] of New York. People are asking questions about that. It One of the questions I always have are they referring to the prosecutors or the FBI in that district or both? >> [snorts] >> Both I think but a little more so the prosecutors. The Southern District of New York is where prosecutors, especially junior prosecutors, go to make a life for themselves. Every one of these guys sees himself one day as the US Attorney, as a member of Congress, running for governor, or in that corner office in an A-list law firm. They go there to make
[03:05] their bones so they can start making the big money or initiate a political career. >> So it's ambition. >> Oh, yeah. And it's going to be on your back and my back and anybody else that they can destroy. >> This is James O'Keefe. You know me for exposing the truth and holding the corrupt elite responsible and accountable. However, today I want to tell you about protecting your own freedom and your finances. Before you buy any gold or silver, hear this. We're going through one of the biggest financial shifts of our lifetime. De-dollarization, nations like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling
[03:35] away from the US dollar. And that threatens your savings and retirement security. Legendary investor Ray Dalio warns skyrocketing debt, relentless money printing, and a weakening dollar are all part of a dangerous cycle that can impact you. That's why more Americans are turning to real assets like physical gold and silver. Gold just surged past $3,700 per ounce and the momentum is building. I've partnered with veteran owned American Independence Gold to help you take action. Open a qualifying account today and get up to $10,000 in bonus
[04:08] gold and our free gold protection guide. And here is [music] the best part, a portion of every sale supports Tunnel to Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom isn't given, it's secured. This is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not financial advice. Always check with your licensed financial advisor before you invest. Let's face it, health care is a mess. Outrageous premiums, surprise bills, [music] denied claims, and now the rates are climbing again. Medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy, even for people with insurance. That's why I
[04:38] switched to Impact Health Sharing. No networks, no woke nonsense, just real savings and up to 50%. You can pick your doctor, there's no surprise bills, [music] there's 24/7 telehealth and maternity support. Take control of your health care before the system decides for [music] you. Go to impactomg.com, that's impactomg.com or call 855-378-6777 now. Impact Health Sharing, built differently. The incentives are so reversed, aren't
[05:09] they? The incentives We'll get to accountability in a bit. Um one more clip here. This is This is a question we got asked a lot after we released stories going viral. As I sit here with you right now, millions of views, but everyone's asking me the same question, which is why would he do this? Or why does someone You say rat. I call I call it a rat as well. Why would someone do this and and um we're going to play this clip and we're going to ask you what you think it means. This is guys clip 104. I had phone calls from DOJ sources telling
[05:39] us that telling me that I was on an enemy's list under the Biden administration. >> Last year, ahead of the election, I had phone calls from DOJ sources telling me that I was on an enemies list that was going to get perp walked in October. Is that like a threat or they were warning you? They were warning. I had a friend who happened to be at the DOJ at a deputy level who called me and said on a Friday night at midnight said like dude you're on a [clears throat] [ __ ] list. You're going to get perp walked in October and didn't happen because what
[06:10] happened in between then >> So one guess is they were likely coercing him to provide false statements similar to Michael Cohen. Just tell us your analysis of this statement he made. >> I don't believe him James. I don't believe him. You know I I watched this video very closely. This seems well I've come to a couple of conclusions. This seems like a guy who's intensely lonely. He's trying to win the affection the affections of an attractive woman. There's there's a fine line between love
[06:42] and hate. He hates you. [snorts] >> But he loves But I think maybe he loves you too. Have you come across characters like this in >> Oh yeah all the time. >> All the time. >> Yeah and at the CIA you're trained to exploit them. >> How so? How do you exploit them? >> I'll give you an example. I was instructed to recruit [snorts] a senior Arab diplomat one time. I met him for coffee just to try to assess him. I immediately assessed that he was gay. I reported that to CIA headquarters. They told me to pretend that I was gay and to pick him up. >> How do you assess if someone is is
[07:13] homosexual? >> You You just kind of feel it in your gut. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So so he's so he's a fine line between love and hate. But a question and and we'll move on from this subject in a moment but a question is this individual got close to a lot of people like he was on Tucker Carlson's show um you know 10 times or whatever it was. I mean I I have this is on Fox News and people like Charlie Kirk and and myself personally were blacklisted from Fox News actually at the time funny enough, separate story. He got close to Steve
[07:45] Bannon at the war room. He got close to He's on the board of all these different organizations. And one of the questions and and maybe this is a question I should answer, but you're a you're a subject matter expert. You watched the 30-minute video. You you kind of have a a character profile on the individual. How is he able to weasel his way to the top of all these NGOs in the conservative sphere in your estimation? >> Yeah, I actually have to admit to some admiration for that. Uh this is a guy who is very arrogant. He is very uh much a
[08:15] believer in his own abilities, even if he sort of believes too strongly in his abilities, but he obviously appears to be a guy who is good at stroking the right people. >> Okay. >> And I think that's how he did it. You know, it's it's not unusual to to encounter somebody who is on a lot of boards, is thrown off a lot of boards, and then goes on to a lot of new boards, just because people get smart to him. And they realize he's not all that he's cracked up to be. >> find new institutions that are not wise to his shenanigans. >> right. >> Yeah, there's a We've all encountered
[08:46] people. So, going back to what you did at the CIA, you you exploited in with the the ego and the arrogance of this type of profile. How did you do that? >> You did it brilliantly in this by by putting an attractive woman in front of him. Sometimes it really is as simple as that. What you do There There's a There's a cycle. We call it the asset acquisition cycle at the CIA. Spot, assess, develop, recruit. >> Mhm. >> So, I spot this guy. Um I assess his access to information that I want. I develop him by [clears throat] making him think that we're great friends.
[09:17] >> Mhm. >> And I identify his vulnerabilities, his weaknesses. In this case, just in a quick 30-minute video, it's clear that he has a weakness for an attractive woman. >> all do, right? Isn't that Isn't that a commonality of men? >> yeah. Especially for for older men or men that might be a little overweight or losing their hair. >> Yes, lonely. >> Right, lonely. And uh and then you move in for the kill. >> So, when you worked at the CIA, I mean, I'm a I'm a journalist. So, what my my objective is the public's right to know. >> Yes. >> We we we we celebrate when we get the
[09:47] story that we think is important for the public. In your job, what was your objective, broadly speaking? >> It was the White House's right to know. >> The White House's right to >> my former deputy director, the guy that I worked for as executive assistant, he had this mantra. And the mantra was the job of the CIA is to recruit spies, to steal secrets, and to analyze those secrets so that the president can make the best informed policy. It was as simple as that. >> on behalf of the government, the executive branch of government, specifically the commander in chief. >> That's right.
[10:18] >> Um cuz I always I always thought that in and I've and I've and I've I have some training from people that did what you did. But, it was very important for me to distinguish what I do from what you do because I'm not working on behalf of the state. >> That's right. >> Whereas whereas you you are. So, in your case, you were just when when you say um what was that asset recruit uh >> Yes, uh spot, assess, develop, recruit. >> Spot, assess, develop, recruit. >> acquisition cycle. >> Recruit either to get the the individual to betray their country or simply give
[10:49] you intel that you can relay. >> Oh, both. >> Or both? >> Both, yeah. >> And in that case, did were you able to get the guy to betray his uh >> We were always trained to not make the final pitch unless you were 100% certain they were going to say yes. And by then, you had already gotten them to sort of implicate themselves. 100% I never I made nine recruitments over the course of my career, and I never had anybody say no. >> You walk a fine line like in my business, when I go get someone on tape, you know, the other thing that I don't do, and this is a fine line, is is
[11:20] blackmail. Cuz you have these people on tape I do, and and you could be very evil with what I have. I don't I don't do that. >> no. >> But, in your in your field, you probably it's part of being a spy. >> You'd be surprised. The the really is no, because we have found over the years that people don't really react to that kind of coercion or pressure. You want them to genuinely like you. You want them to like you so much that they're willing to commit treason for you. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> So, you're seducing them. >> That's that's probably the best the best
[11:50] descriptive word, yes. >> And and I I mentioned that book Master of Disguise by um I forgot the guy's name that did did the the movie all Argo or whatever. >> Oh, it's >> Ben Affleck Ben Affleck like played him in a movie Argo. >> Ben Affleck in Argo. >> And and you've worn disguises in your line of work? >> Yeah, many times. Every time there was a walk-in to the American Embassy wherever I happen to be stationed, you have to wear a disguise. >> What type of disguises did you >> Usually it's as simple as a mustache, a fake mustache, and a wig. Um back then I didn't wear glasses, so I would put on glasses. They were just frames with clear glasses. But at one of my overseas
[12:21] posts, we experimented with the first-ever bald head with a comb-over. It took them 6 weeks to place each hair one by one by one, and to get the the skin color a perfect match with my own skin color. >> Wow. How how old are you? >> Uh 61 now. >> 61. And when did you start with the CIA, how old were you? >> I was 25. >> Let's face it, healthcare is a mess. Outrageous premiums, surprise bills, denied claims, and now the rates are climbing again. Medical debt is the
[12:52] number one cause of bankruptcy, even for people with insurance. That's why I switched to Impact Health Sharing. No networks, no woke nonsense, just real savings up to 50%. You can pick your doctor, there's no surprise bills, there's 24/7 telehealth and maternity support. Take control of your healthcare before the system decides for you. Go to impactomg.com. [music] That's impactomg.com or call 855-378-6777 now. Impact Health Sharing. Built differently.
[13:23] >> This is James O'Keefe. You know me for exposing the truth and holding the corrupt elite responsible and accountable. However, today I want to tell you about protecting your own freedom, your finances. Before you buy any gold or silver, hear this. We're going through one of the biggest financial shifts of our lifetime. Dedollarization, nations like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling away from the US dollar. And that threatens your savings [music] and retirement security. Legendary investor Ray Dalio warns skyrocketing debt, relentless money printing,
[13:54] and a weakening dollar are all part of a dangerous cycle that could impact you. That's why more Americans are turning to real assets like [music] physical gold and silver. Gold just surged past $3,700 per ounce, and momentum is building. I've partnered with veteran-owned American Independence Gold to help you take action. Open a qualifying account today and get up to $10,000 in bonus gold and our free gold protection guide. And here is the best part, a portion of every sale supports Tunnel to Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom isn't given,
[14:25] it's secured. This is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not financial advice. Always check with your licensed financial advisor before you invest. Now, there are there are there's a Venn diagram, I keep saying this, between what I do and what you do, but they're not the same. And I'll go first. They're parallel. Well, there's there's some overlap. I mean, we use aliases and I use disguises. People comment that my disguises are completely ridiculous, but they work a lot of the time. Is that because people are just so full of themselves? They're they're they're not
[14:56] One of the things I just I I find out in Washington, D.C., particularly D.C., and I was in Davos for the World Economic Forum. They're they're stuck in their own little They're not really paying attention to me. They're they're having a a They're confessing to the ether. But what is that? Why why do people do that? >> That's that's arrogance. >> Arrogance. >> People love to hear their own voices. People love to sound, not just to others but to themselves, that they are the leading experts on an issue, they're insiders, and they want to show, they want to prove just how intelligent, just
[15:28] how well-connected they are. >> And that's true for 90% of people. >> Yeah, just about every >> politics more? >> 100%. You have to be a sociopath or a narcissist to even want to enter elected politics. >> Or perhaps like people say, you know, like someone like, you know, an entrepreneur that that starts a company, maybe they're a little on the spectrum. There's something off. I mean that as a compliment. >> Yes. You have to either or you have to be motivated by some extreme form of vengeance. Like there has to be something wrong about you to do to do this. >> That's right. Well, I've said many times
[15:59] on on podcasts that the CIA, and I got this from a CIA psychiatrist, the CIA actively seeks to hire people with sociopathic tendencies. >> Sociopathic tendencies. >> want to hire sociopaths because sociopaths have no conscience, no ability to feel remorse, and they blow right through the polygraph because they don't feel regret. >> Wow. So, what's a sociopathic tendency? >> A sociopathic tendency is somebody who is perfectly happy to operate in legal, moral, or ethical gray areas because of the belief that we're the good guys. I'll give you an example. I was leaving
[16:30] Pakistan my very last day in Pakistan, and I was so looking forward to meeting up with my fiance 24 hours later, and we were going to go on vacation to Santa Fe. 2 hours before I left the embassy, I got a cable saying, "Don't come home. We want you to go to this other country instead, and we want you to meet up with a team there. You're going to break into a house, and you're going to plant some hidden cameras." And I said, "Okay." And I did. >> You didn't object to this. You just You followed your orders. You You >> And and I believed in the mission. We
[17:01] were the good guys. >> You were the You have to believe you're the good guys to do this, which requires a little bit of sociopathic tendencies. >> That's right. >> You can't really question your your orders in the military in any event, right? You have to be trained. >> And if headquarters said that this was a bad person, a terrorist that we needed to collect intelligence on, I was all in. >> What's the difference between Hollywood's depiction, again, I'll go first here in in answering my own question. How Hollywood's depiction, like Jason Bourne and James Bond, but that's kind of, you know, ridiculous. But my my my perception of the big
[17:33] difference is the people people I get thousands of people, "Oh, I want to be an undercover for you." The hardest part for me is just the torture of traveling. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it is not fun to be on a airplane across the seas and sleeping on the floor of a Portuguese airport on a Saturday and hotel rooms all alone. It's just hard work. That's the big difference for me between the glamour perception. But in your in your business, in your line of work, what was the difference between Hollywood's depiction and what you do? >> Hollywood's depiction, and I'll add by saying I was the script advisor on The
[18:04] Bourne Ultimatum. >> You were? >> In addition to a bunch of other CIA movies and and two CIA-related TV shows. Um we we try to make sure that the scripts are are true to life as best we can. But the the big difference is what you see in a Bourne movie is somebody's entire career packed into one >> hour operation. >> two hours. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of hurry up and wait. Surveillance is is just soul-crushing. >> You sit there for hours, sometimes days, just sitting there.
[18:35] >> and peeing, urinating in a in a cup or whatever. >> That actually happens. >> Oh, yeah, sure. You're sitting in a car, where are you going to go to the bathroom? >> mustache is starting to peel off. And yeah, you're tired of the guy that you're sitting with. >> That's a good point. >> I once sat on, you know, the the lid of a toilet for 9 hours listening to a conversation in an adjoining room as a guy was being polygraphed. >> Listening, how so? >> Just just to see if he was going to lie to >> No, I I just just through the crack in the door. Just to see was he if he was
[19:05] going to lie to the polygrapher and the security officer that was in there with him. >> can't move on the toilet. You can't shimmy >> I I thought I was going to faint after a while. >> I've I've been there. Not not not that extreme, but with the the I mean this is a weird anecdote, but urinating in in a women in the end of in the trunk of a car, urinate a woman in a cup because we couldn't leave the car. >> Yeah. >> And the right people are not going to complain about it. It's just part of the job. It's the mission, right? >> I I was being investigated for a security clearance once and the FBI agent that was investigating me said,
[19:36] "Have you ever been arrested?" And instinctively I said, "In the United States?" And she says, "What's that supposed to mean?" And I said, "Oh, no. No, no, no, no. I've never been arrested." Thinking, "Oh, [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> I can't talk about those other times." >> Yeah. So, you've been in foreign You've been in in jails and prisons overseas. You've You've been through a lot of stuff. >> Yeah, I've been through a lot of stuff. >> And you can't talk about everything you've been through, right? But it's rare that you you see I don't know how many of you there are out there, but you you you talk a lot. You're You're an outspoken person is And that what what
[20:06] what How did it come about to be that way? >> You know, if you had Googled me before December the 11th, 2007, you would have found one entry and it was I sold one house and bought another house and it was in the Washington Post, you know, little public information thing. When I went public over the CIA's torture program, it exploded. And after the Obama administration prosecuted me, I decided that my mission in life was to tell the truth and to be as vocal as I
[20:37] possibly could be about government wrongdoing. Even my my ex said, "Man, if if they thought that arresting you was going to silence you, they didn't know you at all." And I've embraced it. >> That was over your whistleblowing on the on the torture. >> Yes. >> So, so tell take us back to that that moment and this is important question because I ask everybody who blows whistles, what really what made you do that? You were indignant, righteous indignation. Take us back to that moment. >> I could tell you that, you know, I took
[21:08] a position and I stood up and I told them that wasn't it at all. >> Mhm. >> Um, I didn't intend to blow the whistle. But I got a call from Brian Ross at ABC News in early December 2007. >> 2007. >> Yep. Um saying that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah. This was a man that we thought was the number three in Al-Qaeda that I had led a raid in Pakistan and captured. I said that was absolutely untrue. I said I was the only person who was kind
[21:39] to Abu Zubaydah. I've never laid a hand on him or on any other prisoner. I said your source is either grossly mistaken or he's a liar. And Brian said, I didn't know this was an old reporter's trick because I had never spoken to a a reporter before. He said, well, you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself. Well, a couple of days later President Bush gave a press conference in which he looked directly into the camera and he said, we do not torture. And I said to my wife who was also a senior CIA officer, I said he's a bald-faced liar. Looking the American
[22:10] people in the in the eye and he's just lying to us. And then two days later, it was a Friday, Bush was walking out of the South Portico of the White House to the helicopter to fly to Camp David and a reporter shouted a question about torture and he stopped and he turned and he said, well, if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer. And I told my wife Brian Ross's source is at the White House. >> Mhm. >> And they're going to try to pin this on me. I said, I'm going to go public. So, I I called Brian Ross and I said, I'll give you your interview. >> Wow. >> And I decided just to tell the truth and
[22:41] let the cards fall. >> And we have the clip. Uh, Andrew, let's play the clip up from what John is talking about. >> We had a group of folks at the agency who were trained in what have been reported in the press to be called enhanced techniques. These enhanced techniques included everything from what was called an attention shake where you grab the person by the lapels and shake them all the way up to the other end, which was waterboarding. >> And that was one of the techniques? >> Waterboarding was one of the techniques. >> And was it used on Zubaydah? >> It was. >> Wow. Um
[23:12] I mean, I I I I I find this fascinating because you you spoke out, you made this incredibly difficult decision. And was it was it because you wanted to right wrongs? You you wanted to correct the lies of the White House? I mean, what was it? >> You know, in my in my gut, I knew that this was illegal. We have a We have a law in this country called the Federal Torture Act of 1946, which specifically outlawed exactly the same techniques that the CIA was using. We executed Japanese soldiers in 1946 who had waterboarded American POWs.
[23:43] [snorts] And then in 1968, in January of 1968, there was a front-page photograph uh on in the Washington Post of an American soldier waterboarding a Vietnamese North Vietnamese uh prisoner. The day that that photo was published, the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, ordered an investigation. The soldier was arrested. He was convicted of torture and sent to to uh Leavenworth for 20 years. Well, then in 2002, like magic, it's all legal. Well, then the law never changed.
[24:14] Congress never never uh revoked it. They never amended it. We changed, and we just pretended that the law didn't apply to us because we were the good guys. >> But most Would it be fair to say that most CIA officers wouldn't do what you did here? >> Most would not. >> Why not? >> Uh you know, honestly, there were some true believers. But for most of the others, they just didn't want to rock the boat, jeopardize their pensions, you know, future promotions. >> But you were willing to do that. >> I was willing to do that. >> So, what made you different than all the others?
[24:47] >> I don't know. I was raised in a church-going home. >> Catholic? >> Uh Orthodox. Which is even more conservative than the Catholics. And um I don't know. Right and wrong was always clearly defined in my life. >> I see. I mean, that's really the issue at hand in our country, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> Because a lot of people don't want to shake boats, rock the boat, lose their money, lose their job, lose their pension. >> No. >> And >> know, funny thing, if I could interrupt you for a second, was the the minute that we began to to torture Abu Zubaydah, I was the
[25:17] executive assistant to the CIA's Deputy Director for Operations. So, I'm seeing the reporting come from the secret site. And there are doctors out there saying, "Whoa, I never signed on for this. I took an oath to do no harm. I'm coming home. I quit. I resign." A secretary fainted when she accidentally walked into the room while they were torturing Abu Zubaydah. So, I was not the only person that was just repulsed by this. >> What Like when the secretary fainted, what was Was it like Zero Dark Thirty, that kind of thing? Was it worse? Was it
[25:48] What are we talking about? >> always maintained that there were worse things than what what we saw in Zero Dark Thirty, worse things than waterboarding. There There were two There were two techniques that I always believed were worse. One was the cold cell, which is when we chill a cell down to 50° F. Um you chain the prisoner to the ceiling with an eye bolt like this, so he can't get comfortable, he can't lay down or kneel or sit. And then he's naked. And then every hour a CIA officer goes into the cell and throws a bucket of ice water on him.
[26:19] >> Every hour? >> And we killed two people with that technique. >> Hypothermia. >> Mhm. And then you just bury him, you know, behind the building. And then the other one was uh sleep deprivation. Uh this leaked around 2005, 2004, and Don Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, famously said he didn't believe there was such a thing as sleep deprivation because he had a stand-up desk in his office. He didn't even sit down. And he would work 24 hours, 36 hours without stopping. But, we know from the American Psychological Association that people begin to lose
[26:51] their minds at day seven with no sleep. They begin to die of organ failure at day nine and the CIA was authorized to keep people awake for as long as 12 days. So, it doesn't work. It's not pragmatic. >> Do any of these methods of torture Did they work? >> No, not in terms of of allowing us to gather actionable intelligence. What worked was the FBI's practice of just engaging people in conversation. And >> Um I mean you and I could talk for 5 hours. >> We've got it. We've got >> an hour left. >> Um
[27:22] so many directions to go in here with this line of questioning. Um my mind goes to the place where if you or I are tortured what techniques do they teach us because we all have a breaking point? >> Yeah. >> And I like to say my price is my life. But you know, when they're you know, I One of my jokes is >> I had thought of it. >> [laughter] >> One of my Everyone has a price and if your price is your life, then that's your price. Um but one of my thoughts is well, I'm not ever going to tell you who my confidential sources you'll have to waterboard. I always say that as a joke. You can waterboard me. What do they teach you in your training if you're
[27:53] tortured to not give up information? >> the same thing that they taught John McCain back in the in the day in the '60s. Uh John McCain was being tortured mercilessly and uh he was being asked the names of uh the other men in his unit. It was kind of an entry-level question. >> Mhm. >> And so, he gave them the names of all of the members of the offensive line of the 1965 uh Green Bay Packers. And they said, "Good. Good. You see you see how easy that was?" >> And then they gave him a little bit of food and they stopped torturing him. So,
[28:25] listen, eventually the person that you're torturing is going to tell you what you want to hear. >> might not work today cuz they'll Google >> Right. They'll Google it. But But what happens is the prisoner will give you so much garbage >> Mhm. >> in addition to the real information. You have to turn all of that over to an analyst or a team of analysts. It's going to take months for them to get through it. And then by then, the bomb's already gone off. right? >> I see. That's interesting. Okay, so you you feed them a bunch of information to get a little food. You give them something, maybe >> Even Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confessed to killing Daniel Pearl. We knew for 100%
[28:58] certainty that he hadn't killed Daniel Pearl. But he confessed it just to get them to stop torturing him. >> Um kind of going full circle cuz you you This is Brian Ross on ABC News. This is This is what, 20 years ago? >> 19 years ago. >> Uh yeah, 19 years ago. You look totally different, I guess. >> Yeah. >> We all grow older in life. Um I I guess it's it's it fascinates me and you're on a the show called the the show is called The Price of My Life and I like to get your thoughts on this is that we need people to be willing to give up
[29:28] something. And and and you you you gave up something. You went to You went to prison? >> I went to prison. >> For how long? >> Uh 23 months. >> Where? >> Uh FCI Loretto, Pennsylvania. >> And was it a high-security prison? >> It was a low-security prison. At sentencing, my lawyers asked the judge to send me to a minimum-security work camp. Uh there are no no locks on the doors, no bars on the windows. Most of the guys work in town. There's a little university there. Um the CIA was just apoplectic that I was being sent to a minimum-security work camp. And so they
[29:59] secretly asked the Justice Department to bump me up. So I got to the prison I got to the camp and they said, "Oh, you have to go across the street to the prison and then they'll process you and they'll walk you back over here." So I went over over to the prison and they cuffed me and started walking me around to the back of the prison. I said, "No, no. I'm supposed to be at the camp across the street." And the guard kind of chortled and he says, "Ha, not according to my paperwork you're not." >> Mhm. >> Took me 4 days to get access to a phone and I called my attorney finally and I
[30:29] said, "Hey, listen, they put me in the actual prison with the pedophiles and the mafia dons and the drug kingpins. What do I do?" And he said, "Oh my god. Well, he said we could file a a motion, but it'll be 2 years before we get a hearing. You'll be home by then. He said, "Buddy, I'm sorry. You're just going to have to tough it out." And so I decided, "You know what? You've been in far worse places than FCI Loretto, Pennsylvania. You're trained for this." And so I just set out to handle it. >> For how long? >> 2 years. >> Two years. >> Mhm. I didn't get one single day of
[31:01] halfway house time. The CIA ensured that I did as much time as I possibly could do. >> Did you encounter any violence in the prison? Did you Did you >> Only violence that I initiated. >> You initiated the violence. >> But you know, one of the things they taught us at the CIA was let others do your dirty work, and that's what I did. >> That's what you did. >> I never ever got my hands dirty. Never. >> Your Your tradecraft came in in handy. >> Boy, did it. I was repeatedly called to the lieutenant's office for investigation. And you know, rule number one at the CIA is admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations.
[31:32] >> That's kind of what that reminds me a little bit of >> [laughter] >> of the Trump's lawyer and the What was his name? Ray Cohn. Ray >> Oh, yeah. >> I can't recall his name. Ray >> Roy Cohn. >> Yeah. That's kind of rule one, two, and three. Admit nothing, deny, always declare victory. Um so you were you were locked up and you you were for lack of a better word, manipulating other folks to do your bidding so that you didn't have to get your hands dirty. >> exactly right. And I forged strategic alliances, which I began on my very first day there. So uh my my I was in prison for an hour.
[32:03] And uh the only thing that the guard who processed me told me, the only the only words that he spoke directly to me were, "If anybody comes into your cell uninvited, that's an act of aggression." And I said, "Great. Thanks. I'm here 40 minutes, and I'm going to get my ass kicked." >> Mhm. >> So sure enough, an hour later this these two guys walked in. One had a swastika tattoo that took up his entire neck, went up onto his face. The other one had [ __ ] you tattooed on his eyelids. >> Mhm. >> And um and I jumped up and I put my fists up, and I said, "What do you want?" And one of them said, "You the new guy?"
[32:33] I said, "Yeah. So?" He said, uh "Are you a You a rat?" I said, "No, I'm not a rat." He said, "You a fag?" I said, "No, I'm not a fag." "You a chomo?" And I'm standing there with my fist. I said, "I don't know what that word means." >> I don't know what that word means. >> says, "Chomo, child molester." I said, "No, I'm not a child molester." And he says, "Okay, you can sit with the Aryans in the chow hall." And I'm like, "Oh." >> How was he just going to take your word for these things? >> right? You have to show paperwork though eventually. You have like a week to show the paperwork. So, I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm I'm with the Aryans now." And
[33:04] then, you know, I had similar experiences with the Nation of Islam cuz I had defended human rights and with the with the Mexicans cuz one Mexican asked me to write his appeal and I did and I didn't charge him anything. >> Are you an attorney by trade? >> No, but I said, "How How hard could it be, right?" So, I wrote the appeal and sent it in and he lost. He was guilty. >> So, so did they find out about your case eventually? Oh, this guy was a CIA case officer. Did they find all that out? >> before I got there. >> And what did they think about that? >> Well, it depended on what faction you were with. So, there was one guy, shout-out to Mark Lanzilotti, one of the
[33:35] Italians, the Italians named Gambino, Genovese, Lucchese, etc. He saw in the Sunday New York Times that I was going to report to the prison on Thursday and he took it upon himself to go to every one of the Italians and say, "Listen, there's a CIA guy coming here, but there's a big difference between the CIA and the FBI. The FBI is rats and cops and the CIA protected us from the Muslims." >> Hmm. >> And so, they welcomed me with open arms. They adopted me and I spent every waking moment with the Italians. >> background the CIA protected um them
[34:08] from the Muslims. >> Right. So, in the in the post-9/11 world, when you boiled when you boiled the CIA right down to its bare bones, it was it was working against Iraq, working against Al-Qaeda, working against Afghanistan and that was good enough for them. And then this rumor somehow got started among the Aryans that I'd been a hit man for the CIA. And one of them finally came up to me an Aryan Brotherhood guy, a dangerous guy, and he said, "Is it true that you were a hitman for the CIA?" And I was prepared for the question. So, I said,
[34:39] "Look, it was wartime, and we all did things we weren't proud of." >> Mhm. >> And that just made everything in life easy. >> What did he say to that? >> Response That was perfectly good with him. >> He just accepted that. So, you had kind of thought through in your mind whatever questions they would ask you. >> and I was prepared for it. >> scared >> Never. >> You know, do you do you do you do you do >> The only thing I was worried about was the guards. >> The guard The guards are crooked, and they're violent, they're corrupt. >> The guards. >> They're dangerous. Yeah. >> And this is probably true if it's true in your case, it's probably true in most cases. >> Yeah, I think so.
[35:10] >> Um Do you Do you experience fear in the way that most people do? >> No. >> You don't experience There's a difference between fear and danger, you understand danger. >> Sure. One of One of the guys that I worked with uh when I resigned, I was leaving, they had a little going away party for me. And um and he came up to me and he said, "I want to tell you how much I've admired you over these years." I said, "Oh, jeez, thanks, it's such a pleasure to work with you." He said, "No, you're different than everybody else." He said, "You're not afraid of anything." And I said, "You know what? I never really thought about it, but
[35:40] that but that's true. I'm not. And I don't know why. >> That's highly unusual, isn't >> Yeah, it's unusual. >> And and so, a couple questions on the fear thing. Has society gotten more afraid? Are people more afraid than they were 30 years ago in your estimation? >> Oh, I think so. >> What caused that? >> I think in large part 9/11. I think in some part we've seen this political split in our society where we can't be friends anymore with people with whom we disagree politically, and
[36:10] that's nuts to me. It's nuts. But we're at the point where if you've got conservative friends or conservative relatives, oh my god, it's it's a a highway to, you know, militia membership or antifa. I'll give you an example. I I've got a cousin, bonafide war hero from the Vietnam War, multiple Bronze Stars. He has the V for Valor, Purple Heart, the whole nine yards. And I happen to be in Tampa to see him. And so, I said, "Hey, let me take you to lunch." So, I went, picked him up at
[36:41] lunch, and he says, "Oh, wait a minute." Before I could pull out, "I forgot my gun." So, he gets out of the car, goes back to the garage, gets his 9 mm, puts it in the glove compartment of my rental car. And I said, I said, "Dude, what are you doing? I'm I'm a convicted felon. This is felon with a gun." And he says, "Yeah, well, you never know when we're going to run into Antifa." And he was completely serious. And I said, "Put that gun back in the garage. I can't take it to a restaurant with a gun." >> What felony did they get you on? >> Uh I violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982.
[37:12] >> Got a crime for everything, don't they? Not espionage or anything like that. >> No, no, no. They charged me with three counts of espionage. I hadn't committed espionage. >> They charged you with espionage. And this is in the Which district in Virginia? >> This is in the Eastern District of Virginia, the Espionage Court. >> And that's what I'm saying, you can't really get a fair judge there. >> No, in fact, I hired I hired O.J. Simpson's jury consultant. >> You did? >> He was the uncle of my best friend's wife. And he agreed to waive his $10,000-a-day fee and just do it cuz he was a nice guy. >> So, so jury the jury pool or the judges
[37:42] are more unfair? >> The jury pool Well, the judges the judges you're not going to get a fair trial. >> You're not going to get a fair trial. >> are are No national security defendant has ever won a case in the Eastern District of Virginia. >> Why Why are the judges unfair? >> Because literally all of them had been prosecutors. Literally all of them. >> All of the federal judges? >> In the Eastern District of Virginia. >> Are they Are they federal judges in the Article III courts appointed regionally or did they get appointed from all over? They're all They're all prosecutors.
[38:12] >> Oh, they're all prosecutors. I think a study was done by ProPublica in 2000, I'm going to say 11, in which they said something like 92% of federal judges have been prosecutors. >> Wow, I didn't know I didn't know that. >> in EDVA uh we had this jury consultant, you know, take a look at everything and he said, "Look, if we were in any other district in America, I would say let's go for it. We're going to win at trial. But your your jury is going to be people from the CIA or with relatives or friends at the CIA, the Defense
[38:43] Department, uh the Department of Homeland Security, FBI, and intelligence community contractors. >> jury would make more sense to be the and this is this is called voir dire and and and you're a criminal defendant. See, you had 12 jurors instead of nine. I was a civil defendant three times and I've been in three jury trials, all civil. So, I went to the voir dire process a few times. I understand what that Most people don't live through that. >> Yeah. >> See, the jury selection. In my case in DC, I had a case in DC in District of Columbia. And you're in the you're in the Eastern District of Virginia. >> Yes. >> And in one of my cases
[39:14] it's still going on. It's in the It's in the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, actually, nine years later. But three years four years ago one of the jurors was asked by the federal judge, "Have you ever heard of James O'Keefe?" And he goes, "Oh, no, I've never seen that man before." Like, obviously lying. And then he worked for the Hillary Clinton campaign. The case was about our investigation into Hillary Clinton. And as he gets off the bench >> [snorts] >> there's there's something called peremptory peremptory strikes where you run out of them. So, you can't cross-examine the juror and the judge
[39:45] has to take the juror at at his word. The juror walks looks at me and winks. As if to say, "I lied and there's nothing you can do about it, James." >> Oh my god. >> And it was one of the most It was one of the [laughter] most It was one of the darkest moments. What was uh jury selection like in your case? You said you consulted a jury. >> get that far. Um I was facing 45 years in prison. And they they held