Future of War: AI, Drones & the Cyprus Conflict

[00:00] Today's guest captured one of the most wanted men in the world after [music] 9/11. >> Sometimes we break into a house >> and there's food on the table and the cigarette [music] is still lit. >> He was offered a seat at the table for what would become the CIA's torture program. He said no. Then he went on national television and called it for what it was. >> It came down to ethics. >> The US government sent him to federal prison for nearly 2 years. He's the only person who went to prison in connection

[00:31] with the torture program and he wasn't one of the torturers. >> And I said, "I'm not sorry, and I'll never apologize. I would do it again today." >> He survived two assassination attempts. >> I had passports from six different countries [music] and six different names. >> He'll tell you about the future of warfare, AI, and what it means for all of us. >> How you going to protect from 5,000 drones? [music] You can't. It's a volume game, and it's changing very quickly. and the Americans aren't ready for it. That's [music] the future of warfare. >> And today he's joining me here in

[01:02] Cyprus. >> And I'm there for 45 minutes. And I said to my friend, I want to go back. I can't do this. >> Former CIA case officer, whistleblower, author. Today's guest is John Kiryak. >> Let me ask you, John, so your family is Greek going back generations. >> Yeah. >> And I wanted to ask how present was that heritage in your house growing up? First and foremost, first and foremost, >> my both of my parents' families came from >> Rodos.

[01:33] >> My father's family from Yalis in the north, >> my mother's family from Katavia in the south. >> And um and so they they moved into already established Greek American communities. So my father's parents came in 1931. Mo my father's father came in 1920, >> went to Canensburg, Pennsylvania outside Pittsburgh, >> lived with his two brothers and a group of other Greeks,

[02:05] worked for 10 years and saved $10,000, which in today's money, I calculated it is $212,000 that he saved. He went back to Rodo and he bought property because he intended to stay. He met my yayya and married her. And then his his brother wrote to him and said, "The Americans are going to change the immigration law. So if you want your wife to be an American, you have to come back now." >> So he only stayed in Nuroda for a year.

[02:39] >> And then the two of them went back in 1931 and then he never returned. My mother's parents came in 1934. Uh the fascists had taken over in Greece. Greek fascists and my yaya was arrested because she was married to a a Greek man who had become an American. They just called her American and they arrested her >> with groans. >> Espionage just because she happened to

[03:09] be married to an she she got married when she was 14 years old. My papu was 18 years old. And um my papu bribed the prison guard with American magazines and she got out. They snuck onto a ship and they came >> uh in 1934. >> So we were always I mean the the community, the culture, the church was always at the very front of everything we did. when I was a

[03:41] little kid, right? >> Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5:45 to 7. I hated every minute of it. And then, of course, when I got older, I was so grateful to my parents for forcing me to do it. And um but all of our friends were Greek Americans. My hometown, Newcastle, Pennsylvania, it had a lot of people from Karpathos. >> A lot. And it had a lot of Syrian

[04:11] Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox. >> And so we would have bania, we would have, you know, the weddings and the baptisms. My father >> My father actually is in books uh about Greek music in America. >> He uh my father ended up getting a PhD in in music. And um and he joined a Greek band when he was 16 years old. and spent the next 50 years playing

[04:42] Greek music. And so he traveled all over the world playing Greek music. So that was important to us, too. We all learned how to play instruments. And we played in his band. That's how I put myself through college was playing weddings and baptisms and paneer and you know, whatever. >> What did you play if I may ask? >> Clarino. >> Mhm. >> We had a lot of hyotes. >> Yeah. >> In the town and they loved Tamika. Mhm. >> They would as soon as we would start at >> Tamiko, >> they would all jump up. Oh, it was I

[05:13] still smile when I think about it. >> Um, so like I say, all of our friends were were Greeks from one part of Greece or another. We had a handful of criates. >> When I moved to Washington, there's a large criate community in Washington. >> But I joined the church as soon as I went to college. I joined AEPA, the American Helenic Educational Progressive Association. >> We raised money for the church. We raised money for, you know, forest fires

[05:44] in Greece and Cyprus. We built a hospital in in Tasaloni. >> Everything always centered around the community. >> So would you consider Greece as much of a home as you would America? You know, I always did, >> but I do now, especially >> because when I was arrested in 2012, >> the Greek ambassador called me >> and he said, "What can we do to be helpful?" >> And I said, "You can give me citizenship." >> And they did. Not just me, but all five

[06:15] of my children. >> And so, I've made a point to fly back to Greece >> to vote in every election. >> I'm so proud to do it in my Bapoo's middle school. Mhm. Mhm. >> In our village. >> So, going back to the roots. >> Uhhuh. >> If we could wind back the clock a bit for anyone who doesn't know, how did you get arrested? What was the reason? What is the CIA? >> Yep. I was a longtime CIA officer. >> After 9/11, I became the chief of CIA

[06:46] counterterrorism operations in in Pakistan. I I led a series of raids that resulted in the capture of the number three in al-Qaeda. The first high value capture since the 911 attacks >> and um and they made a decision that they were going to begin torturing him. I objected to torture. I said, "It's illegal. It's immoral. It's unethical. >> And we shouldn't be in the business of doing it."

[07:17] and they ignored me, laughed at me, passed me over for promotion because I refused the torture um training. >> And then I left the CIA. I went into the public to the private sector and uh and in 2007 I went public with the torture program. >> I said the CIA was torturing its prisoners. >> I said that the torture was official policy. Mhm. >> It was not a rogue uh policy and I said that it had been

[07:49] personally approved by the president. >> And so they arrested me and um they initially charged me with five crimes including three counts of espionage. In the United States, espionage can be a death penalty case. And so I fought them. I ended up taking a plea. They dismissed all the es espionage charges. I ended up taking a plea to a minor charge >> to make the rest of it go away. >> And I served 23 months in prison

[08:19] >> completely unrepentant. >> I make no apologies, no excuses. And you know, sometimes interviewers will say, >> this happened to me first on the BBC. Well, you haven't said you're sorry at all. And I said, I'm not sorry, and I'll never apologize. I would do it again today if I had the opportunity. And it came down to ethics, correct? >> Yeah, it came down to ethics. Here's here's the point that I always make. We have a law called the Federal Torture,

[08:51] Excuse me. We have a law called the Federal Torture Act of 1946 >> that specifically outlawed exactly the same techniques that we were using. We executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American prisoners of war. In January of 1968, the Washington Post ran a front page photograph of an American soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese prisoner. The day that that picture was published, the soldier was arrested. He

[09:23] was charged with torture. He was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison. >> The law never changed. >> Yeah. >> We changed. We can't just decide, well, we're the good guys, so the law doesn't apply to us. >> We can torture anybody we want. We can't. If you want to torture people, >> I'm going to disagree with you, but you have to change the law. >> So, we're either going to be this shining beacon of hope for human rights

[09:54] and civil rights and civil liberties, or we're not. What was the triggering event that incentivized the young higher-ups in CIA to actually begin the torture program? >> Oh, it was 911 itself. >> This was the the greatest intelligence failure in American history. 3,000 Americans were killed in one day, in one hour >> because we didn't do our jobs. And so there was this overwhelming desire for

[10:26] revenge >> and that's what it came out of. >> Did anyone suspect 911 was going to happen? >> Oh yeah. Oh, starting in 1996, we knew that al-Qaeda intended to use airplanes as weapons. >> There was something called the Bojinka operation. Have you ever heard of the Bojinka operation? It was in Manila in 1996. Um, we knew that there was this very bad man out there who went by the Numar Mtar.

[11:00] So in 1996, Mkhtar was in Manila, Philippines, and he went out to lunch one day and while he was out at lunch, the cleaning lady came in to clean the apartment. On the dining room table were all these papers and she looked at these papers and she said, "This looks like planning for a terrorist attack." So she calls the police. The police come and they look at it and they said, "This is the planning for a

[11:31] terrorist attack >> and they call the Philippine Intelligence Service >> and they come." In the meantime, Mkhtar has run away. They look at it. They said, "This is definitely the planning for a terrorist attack." They called the CIA. The CIA collected all the information and it was plans to hijack 14 747 jumbo jets coming out of Manila >> and then flying them into buildings all the way up and down the west coast of the United States. So, we knew that

[12:04] Mkhtar was a very bad guy >> and that he was somehow associated with with uh al-Qaeda >> and that al-Qaeda wanted to use planes as weapons. Okay. So, July 6th, 2001, I'm hosting a group of Middle Eastern intelligence officers at CIA headquarters. We used to do this literally every day. They come, we give them a day of briefings, we exchange gifts, we take

[12:36] them to meet the director and get a picture, and then we take them out to dinner. And the next day we do it with intelligence officers from a different country. And the next day from a different country every day. So I I was entertaining these they were Arabs and uh and I scheduled a briefing on al-Qaeda. The analyst on Alqaaida was a young man, 25 years old. >> Mhm. >> No big deal. So, it comes time for the briefing and there's a knock on the

[13:07] door. I open the door and instead of the analyst, the 25-year-old analyst, it's the director of counterterrorism >> and the director of operations for the Osama bin Laden group. And I said, oh, I said, gentlemen, this is Ambassador Kofer Black. Ambassador Black is the director of counterterrorism for the CIA for the entire world. He's going to brief you, I guess. I didn't know. I was shocked. >> He sits down and he says something

[13:39] terrible is going to happen. We don't know when. We don't know where, but we know it's going to be a an attack on an unprecedented scale. He said, "We're picking up chatter." For example, al-Qaeda camp commanders talking to their students and they're crying and saying, "I'll see you in paradise." We're hearing code words for a massive attack. The the honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey. There's

[14:11] going to be a huge football game. There's going to be a giant wedding. All code words for an attack. So he said, "I'm begging you. >> If you have any sources inside al-Qaeda, please help us." And they just sat there. So at the end of the day, I sent them back to their hotel and I went to thank him for taking the time and I said, "Keofer, were you serious or were you just saying that for their benefit?" >> And he said, "Oh, I was deadly serious.

[14:41] Something terrible is coming." And then two months later, there it was. >> Quick word before we continue. If you're running a small business or a oneperson operation, this is for you. You're probably stuck doing everything yourself. Sales, admin, [music] follow-ups, reporting, everything. The day-to-day, it's your week, and there's no time left for you to actually grow. [music] That's where Blacksmith Industries comes in. We build custom AI automation that [music] takes the repeatable work off your plate. The result is more leads coming in, more hours backing your

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[15:42] general direction >> who you were to target. What slipped through the cracks that allowed this to happen? >> The CIA threw what in American football we call a hailmary pass where you just throw it as hard and as far as you can and you hope somebody on your team catches it. What I mean is we knew that the hijackers were in the United States. The State Department had given them visas >> and we thought we could recruit them >> and then use them against Osama bin

[16:14] Laden. >> The FBI wanted to recruit them, but the FBI didn't know they were in the United States because we never told them. So, the FBI is out looking for them. We know they're in San Diego and in Florida. We just never said anything to the FBI. And then then they went silent and we couldn't find them and it by then it was too late. >> So if there was better communication between the FBI and the CIA, 911 would have never happened. >> I talk about this all the time.

[16:45] >> Mhm. >> The FBI and the CIA historically have hated each other. >> Yeah. since the time of the creation of the CIA in 1947. In 1947, President Truman sponsored something called u the National Security Act of 1947. It created the CIA and the National Security Council. Jay Edgar Hoover was the head of the FBI, notorious figure in American history. He was the head of the FBI for 48 years.

[17:15] and he was actively campaigning against this bill because he wanted to be the head of both the FBI and the CIA. And he said, "We didn't need a CIA. The FBI can do all this." Which was silly. So, President Truman called him into the Oval Office and said, "You're not understanding the bill. The bill creates the CIA as a division of the FBI, which was a lie. No, it didn't. It created an

[17:47] independent CIA. >> Yeah. >> So, Hoover backed off and the CIA was created and it was independent. And Hoover ordered in 1947, there will be no cooperation between the FBI and the CIA. >> And there wasn't. >> Yeah. I can't tell you how many times um I would develop some sort of information overseas and I'd run into my boss's office and say, "You'll never believe what you know

[18:17] source >> AB Grasshopper just told me." And then he'd say, "Oh, write that down. Send it to headquarters. Don't tell the FBI." And I would never tell the FBI. None of us ever told the FBI anything. And the FBI never told us anything. We would we would run into each other in in the embassies that we were working in. >> And it's funny that all the like in Greece, we were all Greek American. >> Yeah. >> The FBI agents were all Greek American. And we'd say, you know, hi Kanti. Hi,

[18:47] John. What are you working on? Nothing. What are you working on? Nothing. Good luck. Have a good day. [laughter] And that would be it. >> Yeah. We always hated each other. And then after 911, we said we we have to put this behind us >> and we have to uh we have to start cooperating because we're going to have another 911. >> And so it's different now, but it it took it took until 2009 >> Yeah. >> for the CIA and the FBI computer systems to be compatible.

[19:18] >> Yeah. >> Even if we wanted to tell the FBI something, we couldn't send it electronically because the systems weren't connected. >> Yeah. And what was the sequence of events that led to Absa capture? What was your role in that? >> Right. So I was I was the chief of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan. >> And when I first arrived my very first day, I had only I had arrived at 4:00 in the morning. I had an 8:00 meeting with the chief of station. And um

[19:51] I went in and he said I said, "I'm I'm your new uh counterterrorism chief." >> We shook hands. He said, "Here's what I want you to do. Come up with a standard operating procedure for taking down a terrorist safe house." I said, "Okay." He said, "I want to start hitting these guys hard." I said, "Okay." So I went back to my office. I got a legal pad, you know, the yellow pad. And I I thought to myself, okay, if I'm going to take down take down an al-Qaeda safe house,

[20:22] how would I do that? So, I I thought, well, my first thought was I would want it to be dark. I wouldn't want anybody to see what I was doing. Better yet, I would want everybody to be asleep. So, I wrote 0200 at the top of the paper 2 o'clock in the morning. And then I said, I need guns. I need ammunition. I need bulletproof vests. I need battering rams to break down the door. I need walkie-talkies and and I need a satellite dish and ammunition and night vision goggles. So, I I went on to

[20:54] a website, galls.com, glls.com. It's a police supply house in Kentucky. >> And I ordered like $50,000 worth of equipment. I put it on my CIA credit card. And a week later, it came in the diplomatic pouch. And so I got a tip. Here's an address. It's an al-Qaeda safe house. I called the Pakistanis. Called the FBI because we're trying to

[21:26] fix things after 9/11. We were on the top floor. The FBI was on the first floor. So I went down. I said, "Listen, I have a tip. I I got the location of an al-Qaeda safe house. We're gonna we're going to break down the door at 2 am. You in? >> Yes, we're in. So, we went to the Pakistanis. It's their country. You have to make them think that they're in charge even though they're not. >> And they said, "Okay, we're in." I said, "Okay, let's go at we meet at 1:45 and we drive together to the target and

[21:58] then right at 2:00 we break down the door. We grab everybody inside." Okay. >> So, we did. Boop. We break down the door. It's two young men, 19 years old, both of them, from Tunisia, and they both just start crying. So, we arrest them, put their hands behind their back. See, that's why the FBI was there. The CIA is not a law enforcement organization, so we can't arrest anybody. >> The FBI arrests people. Yeah. And 911 was an open criminal investigation. So,

[22:29] it's illegal to be a member of al-Qaeda according to US law. So we they're crying. We arrest them. One of them asked me if he could call his mother. I said, 'N no, you can't call your mother and we took them to the Row Pindi jail. And I thought, wow, that that was easy. Easy, easy, >> too easy. >> Yeah. Too easy. And I remember saying to one of my colleagues, that is the fearsome al-Qaeda. >> They're children.

[23:00] This is who we're so afraid of. It's ridiculous. I feel silly. So, couple of days later, I get a call from a friendly Arab intelligence officer, brigadier general, and he says, "Uh, a little bird told me that you're the man to talk to, uh, on al-Qaeda safe houses." And I said, "Your bird speaks the truth." I said, "Why don't you come over to the embassy? We'll have lunch." So he comes over to the embassy. We go

[23:32] to the cafeteria. We're having lunch. He slides a little paper over that has an address on it. And he says, "Be careful. I think this is the real deal." I said, "Okay, thank you." So I called the Pakistanis. I went downstairs to the FBI. We went out that night, broke down the door. This one was a big deal. >> We captured a member of Egyptian Islamic Jihad. They were the ones who assassinated President Amar Sadat, the president of Egypt. Um,

[24:04] Egyptian Islamic Jihad merged with al-Qaeda in 1995. So, this was a house full of Egyptians. And these were bad guys >> with weapons everywhere. We just took them by surprise. >> Yeah. >> And so, we we caught all of them. >> Rahul Pindy Jail. And we would do one or two of these at a time several times a week and we're having success. >> And then we hear, well, there are there's a house in Pashaw, there's a

[24:35] house in Qua, there's a house in Mulan, there's a house in Lahore or Karachi or, you know, wherever it happened to be. So, we're traveling all over the country just breaking down doors >> and and grabbing people and it's going very well. and headquarters is coming back and just saying this is really working out. >> So I had an idea one day. I said to the station chief, we have these officers in villages all the way up and down the border between

[25:07] Pakistan and Afghanistan. Let's pull all of our people off the border. We'll let al-Qaeda come into Pakistan. You know they're going to make a mistake. And as soon as they make a mistake, we get them. So instead of catching one or two or three, we catch five or 10 or 20 at a time. He said, "Let's try it." >> We pulled everybody off the border >> and they came in like a flood because we were bombing Tora Bora every night.

[25:41] >> And then we started catching five and 10 and 20 at a time. Mhm. So to make a long story short, we had to work seven days a week and it was usually 14, 15, 16 hours a day. It was ownorous. It was very, very difficult and you're tired all the time and you have to be right on your game because if if you aren't paying attention, you're going to get shot,

[26:11] >> right? So only on the weekend in Pakistan is Friday and Saturday. So only on Saturday mornings I allowed myself the luxury of sleeping in until 8:00. >> And this morning the phone rings at 6:30. My boss says something important has come up. Come in immediately. So, I get up, take a quick shower, rush into the embassy. Everybody's there, the

[26:44] station chief and the deputy station chief, the FBI chief and his deputy, >> the chief of operations and me. And the the station chief says, "Abueda is somewhere in Pakistan and we have to catch him." And everybody turns and looks at me. I said, "Where in Pakistan? >> We don't know." I said, "Are you guys kidding?" I said, 'Th this country is the size of Texas. It has 220 million people. What do you mean he's somewhere in Pakistan? You have to catch him.

[27:17] That's your job. I said, "Oh my god." Okay. Well, all right. So we were able to we were able to determine to determine that he was moving constantly every day moving mostly between Lahore and Fiselabad which narrowed it down a little bit but Lahore has 12 million people and Fiselabad has 7 million people. So it's like he's moving between New

[27:49] York and Chicago. Okay, great. But that still doesn't help me very much. >> So I said to the to the chief, I can't do this on my own. I need a targeting analyst. A targeting analyst is a very specific job at the CIA. I was an analyst the first seven years of my career before I changed to operations. An analyst reads all of the reporting. CIA, NSA,

[28:20] State Department, newspapers, everything and thinks the big thoughts and becomes an expert and writes a paper for the president and sends it off. A targeting analyst is someone who goes through millions of pieces of metadata >> in order to geollocate one person >> so that we can either capture him or kill him. So I said, I have a friend who's a targeting analyst. He's really good. >> Can I fly him out? And he said, "Do it."

[28:52] So I called the guy and I said, "Listen, can you fly out to Pakistan?" He says, "Yeah, when?" I said, "Like tonight." And he said, "What's up?" I said, "I can't tell you until you get here, but but we need your expertise and we need it within 24 hours." >> He went straight to the airport in Washington and flew to Pakistan. and I picked him up at 4:00 in the morning, which that damn British Airways flight. There's only one way in at the time and it was British Airways and it arrived at 4:00 in the morning. So,

[29:23] I pick him up, he gets in the car and he's like, "What's up?" And I said, "We found we didn't find I said, "We're on we're on the trail of Abu Zuba." >> He said, "You've got to be kidding me." I said, "He's a day ahead of us." Sometimes we break into a house and there's food on the table and the cigarette is still lit. Sometimes we're a day or two behind. But there was one event where we missed him by 15 minutes.

[29:54] And he said, "We never caught anybody that that senior." And I said, "I know, but we're we're close, man." I said, "I can't quite pin him down." Mhm. And he said, "Okay, I think I can find him." So we went back to the office. He took a piece of paper a little bit bigger than this table and he wrote Abu Zuba in the middle and put a circle around it. I should say Abu Zuba's name is Zabadin Muhammad Hussein. Abu Zuba was his numar. So he wrote Abu Zuba in the middle, put

[30:26] a circle around it. And then around that circle he put the names and all the identifying information, email address, phone number, physical address, anything we had of the people in touch with Abu Zuba. >> And then around them he put the same information for people in touch with the people in touch with Abu Zuba. And then a bigger circle we called it the tertiary level. >> Yeah. the people in touch with the people in touch with the people in touch

[30:57] with Alpa. >> At the end of the week, there were these lines all over. And he said to me, I can't narrow it down to fewer than 14 possible sites. I said, "14? Well, that's better than 19 million, >> but I said we never we've never done more than two raids before in a single night. We can't hit 14 places in the same night." Mhm. >> I said, 'Let's go talk to the chief.' So, we went to the chief's office and I

[31:28] said, "We've narrowed it down to 14 sites." He says, "14? What do you need to get this done?" And I said, "We need a team, a big one, 36 people, half CIA, half FBI, but we need pallets of weapons, ammunition, walkie-talkies, bulletproof vests, helmets, night vision goggles, the whole thing again." And he said, "Okay." And I said, "Listen, another thing. All of the

[31:58] targets are in Lahore and Fisalabad. I need to buy two safe houses." He said, "How much money do you want?" I said, "I need$2 million in cash." And he said, "Done." So, I wrote a cable to headquarters. I need $2 million in cash. I need guns and this and this and this and this and this. Within four hours, the money started arriving from other countries, other stations. Oh, we can give you 50,000. We can give

[32:28] you 500,000. We can give you a million. just flying in from all over the region. So I had my two million at the end of the day. The next day, an unmarked private jet arrived with 36 officers, half FBI, half CIA, and the hold, the cargo hold was all the weapons and equipment and ammunition we could possibly use. So the analyst and I drove to Lahore. I met with the director of the ISI, the Pakistani intelligence

[32:59] service in Lahore, >> and he said his orders from his headquarters were to do anything I told him to do. >> I said, "I really appreciate it." He said, "What do you need first?" I said, "Actually, I need a real estate agent." So, he assigns me this real estate agent and the guy had no idea what I was doing. And I said, "I need the biggest house possible." And he said, 'Okay.' So, we went and looked at a couple houses. I said, 'N no, it's not right. Then we looked at one. It was 10

[33:30] bedrooms and 10 bathrooms. I said, 'Th this is the place. GPS's had just been invented, but they couldn't go like directions like driving. They weren't used for driving. >> Um, they were used to you pinpoint a location, right? But they weren't like turn right at the light, turn left. We didn't have that yet. Mhm. So, we went to the roof of the house. I turned the GPS on and it found seven satellites. I said, "This is the place. The 10

[34:01] bedrooms we could use to interrogate 10 prisoners at a time." And I said, "We'll take it. I'll pay cash." And the guy goes like that. And he says, "Sir, do you mind if I ask you, what do you do for a living?" I was so busy. I was working so hard. We hadn't come up with a cover story. And I looked at my friend and he says, "We're textile barons."

[34:31] "Oh, you own the big textile factory outside the the city?" "Yes, yes." I said, "Yes, we own that big we make shirts and pants and suits and all kinds of wonderful things." He goes, "Thank you, sir, for providing jobs for the Pakistani people." I said of of course we love Pakistan. We love the Pakistani people. Here's a million dollars. >> Would you say that was the closest you ever came to being made on the field? >> Yes. >> Yeah. There wasn't anything closer.

[35:01] >> And it was only because I was so tired. >> Yeah. >> That was the Well, no, it was one of two times. >> Yeah. >> The second time was completely my fault. >> Yeah. >> And I'll tell you about that in a minute. So, um, we got in the car, we drove to Fisalabad. We found a seven-bedroom, sevenb house there. I said, "I'll I'll take it." We paid cash for that. And then we got the team together in a hotel, the only decent hotel in the city before we physically moved into the safe

[35:32] houses and started sleeping there. But uh we went to the we went to the safe house the next night at 10:00 >> at night. Everybody was there. All 36 people that had flown in the seven or so from Islamabad >> and then all the Pakistanis. So I'm talking about like 60 people. And I stood on the coffee table and I said, "Listen everybody, I don't mean to sound

[36:04] melodramatic, but we have to synchronize our watches like in the movies." >> And I said, you know, and check. And everybody kind of chuckled. I said, I'm serious. >> Yeah. >> So, we did it. And I said, here's the plan. For those of you going to Fistelad, I rented a bus. >> Everybody going to Fistelabad gets on the bus at uh 10:30. You arrive at Fiselabad, we have rental cars waiting at the safe house. I said at 0130,

[36:37] be in the car. By 0145, be in the neighborhood of the target site. By 015, be direct line of sight to the target. And exactly as the clock strikes two, break down the door. separate the women and children from the men and arrest all the men. So, you know, we all told each other, "Good luck, Godspeed, don't get shot." And I

[37:09] said, "Oh," and this was meant mostly for the Pakistanis. Listen, I said, "My orders are crystal clear. We must take them alive. I don't want any shooting unless they shoot at you first. >> Okay, everybody understand? Do not shoot them >> with the guns loaded with pellets or with real >> with real with real ammunition, >> but only if your life is truly in

[37:40] danger. >> So, we all get in the bus. We had a small team that stayed back in Lahore. I should add earlier in the evening, one of my colleagues and I drove to each of the 14 sites. >> One of them in Lahore, there were three in Lahore. One of them was a pay phone at a shish kebab stand. So, we cut it off the list. The the restaurant closes at 11:00. Nobody's going to be there at 2:00 in the morning. We cut it off.

[38:11] Earlier in the day, we were in Fisalabad and we were going to each one of the of the sites, the the remaining uh 11 sites that were in Fisalabad. >> And uh most of them were just concrete block, you know, one room huts where poor people live, >> tin roofs, terrible places. But we wanted to make sure we weren't being set up. We wanted wanted to make sure we could get in, we could get out. They're not going to ambush us, kill us as we're

[38:43] driving into the neighborhood. >> And then we approached one house. We were we were just driving onto the campus of the University of Fisalabad and um and the analyst called me from Islamabad and he said, "Listen, a friendly Western intelligence service just called me and said that they had a walk-in." A walk-in is somebody who literally walks into an embassy and says, "I want to speak to an

[39:15] intelligence officer. I have information." 95% of the time they're just crazy people. The CIA put a chip in their head. The CIA's communicating through a filling in their tooth. >> Crazy people. But of the remaining 5%, some are what are called probes, intelligence probes, where they've been sent in by the Iranians, the Russians, the Chinese,

[39:46] al-Qaeda to look to see where are the cameras, >> how thick is the glass, >> are the doors armored, are you carrying a gun, that kind of thing. so that if they decide to attack us, they know where the weak point is. Some are some really do have information, but they they just want to they have one little bit of information. Maybe they heard it in a restaurant or something and they want $100 and you just give them $100.

[40:16] >> Some are the real deal. Mhm. >> So he said, "The walk-in says there's a big yellow house and it's full of al-Qaeda." I said, "I want to talk to the walk-in." He said, "I already asked. They said can't do it." >> He's not available for recont. That's the terminology that we use. Which told me that there was no walk-in. >> Yeah. that it was an intercept >> and they didn't want to tell us that they were intercepting al-Qaeda's

[40:47] communications. So just as we come out of the back of the University of Fiselad, there's a giant yellow house. I said, "That's it. That's the house." And the Pakistani colonel that I or major major in in Felabad that I was with said, "I can tell you something bad is happening in that house." I said, "How do you figure?" He said, "It has to be 40° and all the shutters are closed. It must be broiling hot in there, but they want

[41:18] us to think that there's nobody inside and the house is closed up." So, I said, "We have to put a big team on that one." >> And then we only have one last site to go look at and the analyst calls me back and he said, "Are you sitting down?" I said, ' Uh oh, I'm in the car. What's go what's going on? And he says, Abu Zuba just made a terrible mistake. I said, 'What did he do? He accessed his email account with a

[41:50] landline. I said, "Oh my god, tell me you got the address of the house." He said, "It's site 13, >> the yellow house, >> the one after the yellow house." >> Oh. >> I said, "Oh my god." And I turned to the Pakistanis. I said, "We got him." Mhm. So I said, "The address is the last address on the list, >> and we're going there now." So we we go, it was like 15 minutes drive away, and when we get there, it's just an

[42:21] empty field. >> I said, "This can't be possible. We know that the call came from this site." And the Pakistani laughed at me. He said, "No, no, you don't understand. This happens all the time in Pakistan." He said, "When a plot of land is legally divided, it's assigned a telephone number. But poor people will climb the telephone pole, they'll find the wire that is assigned to this land, they'll cut it,

[42:51] and they'll run another wire to their own house >> so that they can make phone calls, and the bill goes to the owner of the land." >> I said, "Oh, that's [snorts] pretty smart, actually." Mhm. >> He calls a young technical officer, 18, 19 year old officer. He climbs the telephone pole. I said in my first book, it was like Medusa's head of wires up there and he gets the wire and then he follows it like this down the pole and then down the alley and he says, "It's that house right there."

[43:23] >> And my colleague and I high-fived each other >> like we got him. >> Yeah. So that night at 2:00 in the morning, he and I are on the roof of the safe house in Fisabad and I said I looked at my watch and I said 200. Here we go now. And just as I said it, we hear boink boink boink. And I said that's not good. Like a sound of metal on metal. First of all, everybody

[43:55] in Pakistan is asleep at 2 o'clock in the morning. the whole country. It's just >> it's just everybody is is sleeping. >> So to hear a sound like that, it's not good. >> And I said to him, "That's not good." And then we hear and I said, "Oh my god, that's not good. We knew that that site was the closest one to the safe house." So I got on the walkie-talkie and I said, "Sight 13. Site 13, come in." And then my colleague at the site says, "Shots fired. Shots fired." Obviously, that's why I'm

[44:27] calling you. >> I said, "What's going on over there?" I couldn't even understand him. He was so excited and upset. [clears throat] >> I said, "We have to we have to go over there." We run downstairs. We jump in the car. We run to site 13 and I took pictures that night. Fantastic. Quick intermission. The photos John just showed me on his phone, those were the real deal. And it hit me how true every story he's been telling actually is. I

[44:58] wish I could share them with you, but I can't. They're too graphic. But I'll tell you what I saw. I saw Abu Zabeda lying there. Blood all over the walls. And it was exactly the way John described it. After the podcast, he showed me another photo of a terrorist who bit down on a live grenade and his body was blown everywhere. Then another where they tried to put him back together like Lego. It looked like a scene from a horror movie. and it changed how I heard everything that came after. Now back to the podcast

[45:28] >> and it's chaos. So as soon as we get there, I said I said, "What's going on?" And this Pakistani says to me, "We got him. We got your man." We never told the Pakistanis who we were looking for because we were afraid that they had been infiltrated by al-Qaeda. So we only called them the big fish and that became Mr. Fish. So, um, so there's Mr. Fish.

[45:59] >> Mhm. >> And I said, "That doesn't look anything like the picture we have of Abu Zuba." Mhm. >> The picture we had of Abu Zabeda was a six-year-old passport photo, very good-looking >> young man in his early 20s >> and a close beard and mustache like yours. >> Uh, very thin. >> Mhm. >> This guy was clean shaven, fat,

[46:29] >> hair going all over the place like Albert Einstein. I said, ' That doesn't look anything like him. >> And the Pakistanis saying, "Yes, it's him. It's him." The Americans are like, "I'm we don't know." I said, "Who the [ __ ] shot him first of all?" >> And this Pakistani's like, "Yeah, I shot him." I said, "Why?" >> Yeah, >> he was jumping from the roof of the safe house to the roof of the next door house to escape. And so I shot him. They shot him. They shot and killed a Syrian

[46:59] bomber, bomb maker. >> Yeah. and they shot Abu Zuba's bodyguard >> also from Syria. >> What changed the plans? You obviously said to take everyone alive. Was it the initiation of the shots that triggered >> I'm going to let you decide. >> Okay. >> Because what the Pakistanis said is we didn't want him to escape. >> Yeah. What the Americans said was, "We wonder if al-Qaeda had infiltrated the Pakistani intelligence service and they

[47:30] didn't want him to talk." >> Yeah. >> Because we were we had him. >> Yeah. >> And they said, "Oh [ __ ] we should kill him >> because he's going to rat us out to the Americans that we have, you know, Osama bin Laden at Abraabad. >> I don't know. I'm making this up. You decide. >> Was it this one idiot who just got excited and started shooting >> or was it a deeper plan? We'll never know.

[48:00] >> So, I called the analyst and he said, "Oh my god, I'm dying for an update. What's going on?" I said, "The the team caught somebody. >> I'm telling you, it doesn't look anything like the picture." >> I said, "I don't know what to do." He said, "Give me a picture of his eye. I'll run a retinal scan." So I I shouted I I knelt down on top of him and I said, "If the hayun open your eyes and uh he was bleeding to death." So I

[48:32] lifted up his eyelid, but I could just see the white. >> Mhm. >> And I said, "He's he's dying. I I can't get a shot of his of his uh eye." He said, "Take a picture of his ear." I didn't know at the time that no two people on Earth have the same ear. It's like a fingerprint. >> So, I took a picture of his ear. Phones didn't have cameras in 2002. So, I took a picture with the camera and then I plugged the camera into the cell phone and I sent the picture to uh to

[49:02] Islamabad. He sent the picture to CIA headquarters. They called back. They said, "It's him." So, we picked him up. We put him in the back of a of a filthy There's this poor Pakistani guy that's driving down the street. It's like 3:20 in the morning by now. >> We stop him. We're going like this. We stop him. We pull him out of the truck. >> We throw Abda in the back of the truck. We get in the truck and we drive it to Fiselabad Hospital, the worst place on

[49:33] earth. So, we get there 3:40 a.m. and uh it's all these Americans dressed as Pakistanis and there's this Arab dressed as a Pakistani and then the Pakistanis are with us. >> And I said to the doctor, I said, "Doc, my orders were to take this guy alive. Make sure he stays alive." Mhm.

[50:04] >> And the doctor's like, >> "So they take him into the operating theater, I guess they call it here, >> and we sat down. Just sat down in the waiting room waiting. It was me, then a very young colleague, a woman who had never been overseas before, and she's like traumatized. She resigned at the end of this. She resigned from the CIA. She's like, I I can't I can't do this." >> Did she see the pictures you showed me live? She was standing there when I was taking the pictures.

[50:34] >> Yeah. I can imagine what >> Oh, yeah. She had had enough. That was it. She just quit. >> Um, and it was another colleague, three of us, and the Pakistani major. So, we're sitting there. Word got around al-Qaeda that we had gotten him. >> And so, they started driving by the hospital on motorcycles and just opening fire on the hospital. >> No way. and we're diving down onto the ground, you know. So I said to the Pakistani,

[51:05] I said, "Major Khaled, can you get a helicopter in here?" >> And he said, "I think so." I said, "If they realize how lightly armed we are, we're dead. We can't defend ourselves for more than 5 minutes." So he calls his headquarters. 20 minutes later, a helicopter lands in the parking lot. I walked into the operating theater like this. I said, "Doc, wrap it up. we have to go. So they sewed him closed. He was gushing blood. >> It was like a scene from a horror movie.

[51:37] >> Mhm. >> And we loaded him onto the helicopter. We climbed on the helicopter. We took off. We went about I don't know 70 80 kilometers to a uh a Pakistani military base. And it just so happened to have a hospital. And you know what? But it wasn't really a hospital. It was a clinic. >> Mhm. >> It had eight beds. It was a circle with the the nurses station in the center and like the spokes of a wheel, eight beds.

[52:09] They were waiting for us. So they took him directly into surgery. And I sat down and about 15 minutes later the doctor came out and he said listen I feel like I should tell you I've never seen wounds this severe where the patient lived. I said [ __ ] Okay. So I called Islamabad. I said listen they don't expect him to live. This [ __ ] idiot Pakistani guy shot him three times

[52:39] with an AK-47 in the thigh, the groin, and the stomach. >> Did it hit an artery? >> No. Miraculously. >> Mhm. >> It caused grizzly wounds. >> The most horrible wounds you've ever seen. >> Yeah. >> And like I say, he wasn't just bleeding. The blood was gushing out of him. I I had never seen this before. You know how they'll have a bag of blood and it's dripping into you? Well, they had the bag of blood, but they had a pump attached to it. So, the pump is

[53:10] squirting it into him. It's forcing it at high speed into him. And just as fast as it's going into him, it's dripping out of the the gunshot wounds. >> So, it was a big puddle of blood on the floor below the bed >> because the bed was completely soaked with blood and couldn't hold any more blood. >> Yeah. So I sat there. He was in surgery about six hours. And then my my chief called and he said, "Listen, George Tennant had

[53:40] called." George Tennant was the CIA director. He said, George called and said, "27 CIA eyes on. Do not leave his bedside." I said, "I've been awake for 24 hours now." He said, "Don't leave his bedside." So, what I did is I turned the ceiling fan on full blast so that I was uncomfortably cold. >> Mhm. >> And I thought if I'm uncomfortably cold, I won't fall asleep. >> And um they brought him out of surgery

[54:13] and I was still afraid I would fall asleep. So, I tore up a sheet and I tied him to the bed from the wrists and the ankles >> because I thought I don't know these people. Maybe the doctor is al-Qaeda. May I don't know. Yeah. and maybe I'm going to fall asleep like this in the chair and the doctor's going to take him and you know he's going to be free gone. >> So I tied him down and then I just sat there like this at the foot of the bed. I just sat there and stared at him. He was in a coma for

[54:46] quite some time and then about six hours after the surgery, actually just before six hours after the surgery, just before that, I called one of the FBI agents at the safe house and I said, "Buddy, could you do me a favor?" I said, "I smell so bad that I'm grossing myself out. I can't stand the smell of myself. I have some clean clothes at the at the safe house. Could you bring me my clothes? And and for

[55:18] God's sake, bring me something to eat. I'm starving to death over here. I hadn't eaten in 24 hours. So, he comes an hour later. Um, I didn't have any clean pants and I was wearing these Pakistani balloon pants, you know, >> and he gave me underwear, socks, and I had a red t-shirt that my children had bought me that had Spongebob Squarepants on on the shirt, which I still have. And um, and he brought me some orange juice and some crackers and an apple. That was all

[55:50] he could find. So, I put on the shirt and the underwear and the pants, sorry, the socks and I'm sitting there at the foot of the bed [snorts] and uh and he starts to stir right like this. He has an oxygen mask on. He's stirring. So, I stood up and I'm looking at him >> and I've said before, you could see the exact instant that he realized, "Oh my god, the

[56:21] Americans have me." >> Because he opened one eye. He's blind in one eye. One eye is it's very pale blue. During the war against the Russians, he um >> actually it wasn't against the Russians. It was when they were >> fighting the Russian imposed government. He got uh shrapnel in his eye and he went blind. >> So he opens the one eye and he looks right at Spongebob and his pulse went from 120 to 220 like instantly. Yeah.

[56:52] >> And the machine that he was hooked up to, it started going beep and then you hear this announcement. Code blue. Code blue. Bay one. Code blue. And then they rush in and they're going clear choo choo. And they shock him and they give him a shot of adrenal of benadryil. >> Uh and then he's out. Not benadryil. Um >> I forget what it was. >> Not not morphine, but in that class. >> Acerative.

[57:23] >> Yeah. Aserative. >> Yeah. >> Not Darvon. I I used to know what it was. It's in my book. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, >> um and then he was out. >> Mhm. again. So, I sat back down in the chair and another six hours passed and uh and he opens his eyes. He's tied to the bed. He's looking at me and I'm looking at him and he goes like this, you know, like, "Come here." So, I go over and I moved his oxygen mask over to

[57:54] the side and I said, "Uh, Shuismeck, what is your name?" And he goes like this. I said, "Shume." And then he says in perfect English, he says,"I will not speak to you in God's language." And I said, "That's okay, Abu Ba. We know who you are." And then he started crying. And he said, "Please, brother, kill me. Take the pillow and kill me." And I said, "Oh no, nobody's going to kill you. We've been looking for you for a long time. You were hard to find." >> I said,

[58:25] he said, "What's going to happen to me?" I said, "Honestly, I have no idea, but I'm going to give you some advice. I am the nicest guy that you're going to meet in this experience. My friends, they're not nice like I am." >> Mhm. >> So, if there's one thing that you do, it's that you have to cooperate. And he said, "You seem like a nice man, but you're the enemy, and I'll never cooperate." I said, "Suit yourself."

[58:58] And I sat back down. I moved his oxygen mask back on. I sat back down. And then later on, you know, he motions again. >> Mhm. We had captured his diary as part of this operation. [cough] And I was going through it. It was it was an incredible thing. Mhm. >> He was a gifted artist first of all, >> gifted drawer, sketcher,

[59:29] >> and he was also writing poetry, which was very, very good. But most interestingly, and this led to a split between the FBI and the CIA. The FBI said, "Oh, he's clearly insane." Like, no, he's clearly a genius, >> not insane. He was writing letters to himself as a young man. So the 27-year-old Abu Abu Zuba was writing to the 14-year-old Abu Zuba. >> And he was saying, "Treat our mother with respect. Don't whistle at those girls in the village. That was wrong when you

[1:00:00] whistled at them." >> You know, things like that. >> Yeah. >> Respect our father and do what he says. >> You know, why did you betray him? And you know, things like that. It was very, very interesting. >> Yeah. >> So I said, "You're a very good writer." And uh he said, "Do you read poetry?" And I said, "Yes." And and I read Arabic and your poetry is beautiful. And um he said, "Are you Christian?" And I said, "Yes, I'm Greek Orthodox."

[1:00:30] And he said, "I'm Muslim." I said, "I know." So he wanted to debate Islam versus Christianity. >> And uh he was very very worried about what was going to happen to him. And I genuinely had no idea what the plans were. >> Finally, I get a call from Islamabad and the analyst says, "There's a plane coming in tonight at 2:00 and it's going to take him." >> And I said, "Where?" He said, "I can't tell you." I said, "Okay." So, I told

[1:01:01] him, "Listen, there's a plane that's coming in tonight and it's going to take you to whatever location it is you're going to go." And he said, "Are they going to kill me there?" And I said, 'N no, I don't know what they're going to do to you there, but I can tell you you're going to get the best medical care that the American government can possibly provide. And he did. They sent out the chief trauma surgeon from John's Hopkins University Medical Center on this CIA jet, the top trauma

[1:01:35] care in America. So at 2:00 the plane landed right outside the window. It just pulled right up to the clinic and uh three FBI agents and I picked him up on a gurnie. He was crying. He asked me to hold his hand. So with one hand I'm holding the gurnie. With the other one I'm holding his hand. We had blood all over us. The three FBI guys and I. Blood everywhere. We actually had to throw away our clothes. I I kept the Spongebob. I put it in a

[1:02:07] plastic bag and I took it home because I thought it might be historically significant. >> Does it have blood on it still? >> It it does. >> Yeah. And so, uh, so we had to stand him up to get him onto the plane and then we laid him across the luggage rack at the back of the plane and we tied the rack the bed down to the rack and and um I squeezed his hand and I said, "Good luck. Remember, you have to cooperate."

[1:05:46] We love you. This is the birthplace of democracy. It's the birthplace of medicine and mathematics and we love you and we have lots of Greeks in the United States and they own all the restaurants and the Greeks are very educated in the United States and they contribute um to the Greek economy on a scale that that is bigger than every other ethnic group. And then the prime minister says we love you. You saved us from communism

[1:06:20] after World War II and you have always been a place where our people could go and make their fortunes and then invest back in Greece again. And everybody's nodding. Well, thank you for coming. And I'm like, I haven't written anything down yet. Nobody has said anything important enough to write down. And they get up and Clinton hugs each one of them. Big hug. And then they leave. So Clinton and Burger walk out with

[1:06:53] Albbright >> and then Ambassador Burns walks out and then I walk out. So I'm standing against the wall. My job is not to speak unless I'm spoken to. >> So I'm standing there like this and then and then Burger finishes whatever he was saying to the president. He walks over to these two. So the the president I and I are closer than you and I are right now and just then the elevator at the end of the hall opens and Hillary comes

[1:07:24] off with Chelsea Clinton and her my mother would always say right she's like this and I thought uh oh she walks right up to us so Hillary's here Chelsea Clinton and me and I'm just standing there like, "Oh my god." Like, "I can't believe this is happening." One thing about Bill Clinton, he hates silence. So he says, "Boy, we sure had a good time at the Parthonon this morning,

[1:07:54] didn't we, Hill?" She's just looking at him. So he repeats himself. "We sure had a good time at the Parthonon this morning, didn't we, Hill?" She says, "Jesus Christ, Bill, it rained all day. I'll be in the room." and she walks between us and I'm looking at him and he looks at me and he says, "Let's get the hell out of here." So, we walk to the elevator. The Secret Service runs in after us. Then the Secretary of State, the National Security Adviser, we go down to the basement, 500

[1:08:27] screaming women from the Greek American Business Women's Association, and he gave a speech. I remember thinking, he's the best speaker I've ever seen in my life. Okay, two weeks later, I'm meeting with a very sensitive source at the intercon. And and the guy had never asked me for anything. Never. And this day, he says to me, "But

[1:08:59] Yanni, I'm so tired. I've been up all night. Do you mind if I order a a pot of coffee from the room service?" I said, "Of course not." So I called room service. I said, "I'm in room whatever. Can I order coffee for two and you know some whatever bakimi or whatever." >> So 15 minutes later they come up with the coffee. The guy pushes the the cart with the coffee and he looks at me and he says, "I know you." And I said, "No, I don't think so." And he says, "Yeah, I

[1:09:30] know you. you were the notetaker in Clinton's meeting with the prime minister. And I said, "You were the waiter that set up the table of food." And he said, "But you live in Athens. Why are you staying in a hotel?" And I just went and the source, my source, he's sitting in a chair and he's just smoking a cigarette really slowly and he says, "Some nephew I have

[1:10:02] I come all the way from Chicago and he makes me stay in a hotel and the guy says, "Welcome to Athens." And the guy leaves and I said, "Oh shit." I said, "You really saved me." And he says, "Bayani, we have to come up with a better cover story. I said, "I will never let it happen again." >> That was very close. >> It was very close. >> So, following up on this lighter note, what was the funniest thing that has happened out on the field, if those rare moments do exist? Something that was genuinely funny. Yeah,

[1:10:34] >> occasionally. I'll tell you two stories. No, one No, one's probably too sensitive. I'll tell you a good story. We were in Athens [snorts] and um one of my colleagues said, "Hey, why don't we invite the Greeks to go shooting, right? They have a range. We need to re-qualify every six months. Let's just we'll call them. We have, you know, 10,000 rounds of 9mm ammunition. We all use 9 millimeters. Let's go out to I said, "This is a great idea. Plus, you know, I

[1:11:06] can take the afternoon off. We can have a couple of beers, which you're not supposed to do. The Greeks always bring beers, though. So, um, we meet that them at their range and we set up the targets and, uh, some of the targets were like actual circle targets somewhere in the shape of, you know, a a human body, whatever. So, we're drinking drinking. We're drinking too much >> at the shooting range. >> Yeah. >> Which you're never ever supposed to mix shooting and alcohol. But, you know, we

[1:11:38] know enough not to just, you know, go like this with a gun. >> Yeah. >> So, we were joking with each other about who's the better shot. And I said, "Your range is is [ __ ] Our ranges are great. They're indoors. They're airond conditioned. This is dirt. We're out, you know, messy, messy." And they said, "Oh, we bet we bet we're better shots than you." I said, "No way you guys are better shots than us." And then my colleague says I'm a better shot than

[1:12:09] any of you guys. And they said, "Yeah, you willing to prove it?" I said, "10€10 euros on Bill. I put€10 on bill. Come on, you guys." And they said, "Okay, we'll put€10." And then, but there were so many more of them. There were like eight of them and two of us. They said, "That's not fair. So, you have to shoot this." The guy takes some bubble gum out of his mouth and he puts the bubble gum right in the center of the target. You have to shoot the bubble gum.

[1:12:42] So, everybody else is betting he's not going to shoot the bubble gum. He is going to shoot the bubble gum. And then they said, [laughter] "We'll double it if you shoot over your shoulder and you hit the bubble gum." I said, "Get the [ __ ] out of here now. Come on. Now it's getting ridiculous. But we were drunk, all of us. And then Bill says, "Let's double it again. I'll shoot the bubble gum over my shoulder with the gun upside down."

[1:13:16] And he said to me, he whispers to me, "You're going to want to bet on this." So I put another 10 euros. >> So I'm looking at him like, there's no possible way he's gonna make this shot. No way. And he kept turning around looking at it. And then he turns around and he says, "Ready?" "Yeah, we're ready." And he goes, >> And I mean, it went straight through the center of the bubble gum. >> No way.

[1:13:47] >> Afterwards, I was like, "How the hell did you do that?" and he said, 'I was on the 1984 Olympic shooting team, [laughter] but none of them knew that. And I was like, 'Oh my god, man. I've never seen anything like that in my life. He took the target and he hung it in the office. He's like, "But don't tell anybody we were drinking." I said, "No, of course I'm not going to tell anybody we were drinking." The Greeks were like, they lost all their money. Yeah. >> And just standing there,

[1:14:18] >> is so impressive. Uhhuh. How much was the pot? >> Oh, it was like €350. It was a lot. It was a lot. >> Wow. [laughter] >> Oh, I would like to ask you now with the recent advancements in technology and AI. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned target analysts play a huge role. >> Huge >> in CI generally in intelligence. How do you feel? How do you believe that role is going to evolve over the years? And how would we protect the common people?

[1:14:50] How would we protect ourselves? >> Yeah, that's protect our privacy. >> That's the question. So, um, so 25 years ago, there was no such thing as a targeting analyst at the CIA. I remember the first time I heard the term, I was like, what's that? Targeting analyst. Targeting what? Targeting people. I was like, "Oo, that doesn't sound very nice." Um, now most of the analysts are targeting analysts. So,

[1:15:22] technology is is improving exponentially to the point where unless you're the uni bomber and you live in a shack in the mountains with no electricity and no electronics and no connectivity and no cell phone, that's the only way you can be safe. Otherwise, if somebody really wants to find you, they're going to find you. They're going to do it. You know, I mean, even Saddam Hussein, we found in a hole in the ground. Bin Laden, we found

[1:15:52] Zoahi, we found, we shot Zoahi with a missile from a drone. The missile had no warhead on it because we didn't want to kill the women and children. So, the missile went completely through his body and didn't explode because there was nothing explosive. It was so accurate. >> So completely accurate. That's how accurate. A guy standing on a balcony smoking a cigarette from 20 miles away. >> Yeah. >> So now it's it's all about targeting

[1:16:26] and and the targeting officer's job is easier because everything turns into metadata. Everything. Every time you, you know, look at Instagram, there's a digital footprint. Anytime you receive or send an email, anytime you you walk, even with the iPhone, you can turn off location services. It's not really off. It's off to you. It's not off to the satellite. So, you have to be

[1:16:56] Do you know what a lite is? >> L U D E. a lite in the uh in the early 18th century in England. Uh the country started to industrialize and machines were being invented. Machines that would do things like make clothes or gin cotton,

[1:17:26] things that people used to do, right? spin fabric, a yarn to to make clothes. The Leites were the people of the village. They didn't like these new things called machines. So at night, they went into the factory and they destroyed all the machines with hammers. They were called lites. You have to be a lite today in order to protect yourself from a digital footprint. So with AI, it's already so good, so

[1:17:58] sophisticated that it essentially does the targeting analyst job for him. Conversely, though, it also makes it almost impossible for a CIA officer to cross a border undetected. You know, before we just h I'm going to use an Italian passport, a Lebanese passport, an Irish passport, whatever. Whatever we have. I had passports from six different countries in six different names. You can't do that now because

[1:18:31] you're constantly being scanned. Constantly. You know, they have these signs up in American airports that we use biometrics, but your image will not be saved in a computer. [ __ ] Of course, it's being saved in a computer, just like the British are saving your image, the French, the Israelis, the Russians, the Chinese, everybody's doing it. And so it enables an intelligence service to say, "Wait a minute, this guy passed through this airport three years

[1:19:02] ago on this passport." AI is telling us that this is the same person, but he's on this different passport. That's an intelligence officer and then they're on you. So it makes the bad guy easier to find. It makes the good guy have much more difficulty finding him. >> It also makes it more difficult to sleep under their under the radar. Even if you're the good guy. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. I don't know how they do it.

[1:19:33] Unless you just use your official diplomatic passport and you go from country A to country B, then you have a secret meeting with another CIA officer and he discreetly passes you another passport and then you know >> so an inside man. >> Yeah, you have to have an inside man. >> Could it be done with hyperrealistic masks and then a passport too much? >> People have asked me about that. >> Yeah. Um, if you're not using biometrics at the airport, yes, >> probably.

[1:20:04] Um, but even if you're you're not, in two years or five years, everybody in the world is going to be using biometrics. I I'm I'm confident that intelligent services will come up with some way to defeat these, >> but we're not there yet. to expand on that. Are you familiar with Mythos, the AI model? >> Yes. >> So for no one who doesn't know, it's a very powerful AI model that has found

[1:20:34] vulnerabilities in big companies and it's kept restricted, >> right, >> to protect these big corporations. If such a model goes out and possibly counter intelligence agencies get their hands on that, how would it change the game? >> Oh my god. If it was used, let's say the North Koreans use it to find a vulnerability. Well, let's use a real life example in Paramount Studios or

[1:21:05] Warner Brothers Studios or Universal Pictures or whatever. And they really really don't want this anti-N North Vietnam movie to be released. they can use it to hack into the studios uh system and just take the whole company down which they did and so the movie was never released. Um, that's child's play. If they use it to attack the Pentagon system or

[1:21:37] the electrical grid or the water purification facilities, how do you recover from something like that? You know, it would be incredibly dangerous for a tool like that to be exposed to a hostile intelligence service. So would you say the future of counter intelligence is going to be fought by AI exclusively? >> I believe that that's going to be the case. Eventually though, >> I think any service would come to the

[1:22:09] realization you're still going to have to develop human sources. Yeah. Um we've had two major traders in the last 30 years in the United States. Three three major traders. Um Jonathan Pard who was working for the Israelis. He did every day of a 30-year prison sentence. Went to Israel, kissed the ground, asked Israelis to, you know, do car bombs in the United States. Now he's running for the Knesset. Um but there were two others. Aldrich

[1:22:40] Ames, he was the head of Russian counter inelligence at the CIA. He was actually a Russian mole. And um Robert uh Aldrich James and uh and Robert Robert what's his name? Hansen. Was it Robert Hansen? Anyway, Hansen. And uh he was the head of counter intelligence for the FBI. And they're both working for the

[1:23:11] Russians. So the Russians, they were able to identify to the Russians 12 um Russians that the CIA had recruited and the Russians executed all 12 of them. So when our sources began to die mysteriously, all of them, we realized the the mole is inside the CIA. And >> did they die in quick succession? >> Quick succession. Yeah. Um, so

[1:23:44] Hansen was in charge of the investigation and the CIA was doing a parallel investigation because of human sources inside Moscow that Ames didn't know about. That human source was able to say the mole is Aldrich Ames and we caught him and he died in prison about uh six weeks ago. Um, but then it was clear that there was a second mole. So they asked Hansen to head the investigation, but the mole was Hansen.

[1:24:17] And so he pointed the finger at a friend of mine, Brian Kelly, and he said, "It's this CIA man, Brian Kelly. He's the mole." They arrested Brian. They threatened him with the death penalty if he didn't. >> What evidence? >> Hansen says it's him. That's it. That was the evidence. >> That wasn't enough information to hold him. So, he was released and and uh confined to his home, >> but he was suspended without pay from the CIA. They threatened his daughter.

[1:24:47] We're going to execute your father. You have to tell us when did he start working for the Russians? And it was Hansen all the time. [snorts] But then our source in Moscow said, "I got a a recording of the mole." and he sent the recording to the CIA. And at the CIA, they're all standing around the table very dramatically. They press play and the voice is Hansen. And so the FBI arrests Hansen. He died in prison recently, about a year ago,

[1:25:20] year and a half ago. Um, but AI is not going to figure that out. You have to have a human source >> who can get around the measures that are being taken >> to protect the privacy of the of the double agent. >> So would you say the [snorts] human can both be the weakest link and the strongest link in the chain? >> That's that's a great way to put it. Yes. >> Yeah, that's the way to put it. >> Last question on this subject. Let's say

[1:25:52] there was recently uh an offer by the Pentagon Contthropic for $200 million with the Department of War. >> Yeah. >> To develop autonomous weapons and mass surveillance systems against the or for the American people, >> right? >> Anropic stepped down >> and even though they stuck to their ethics, Open AI stepped up and took the contract. >> Yes. >> So that is happening anyway. What do you think the future of warfare is going to look like? >> Have you ever seen the Netflix series

[1:26:25] Black Mirror? >> So many times >> with the robot dogs. >> So many times. >> That's that's the future of warfare. DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Program Agency, they're the ones working with Anthropic and OpenAI and uh Palunteer and all these companies on 20 years from now kind of technology.

[1:26:55] So, you know, good for anthropic for standing up for their ethics. Uh, President Trump threatened them with a hostile takeover and uh, and they wouldn't back down. And I want to I want to say something too about the Department of War. >> It's not the Department of War. Don't listen to Donald Trump. Only Congress can change the name of a federal department. He can't just wake up one day and then tweet, "Starting today, it's the Department of War." No, it's not. Whether you like it or not, it's the Department of Defense. They changed all the signs, but officially it's not

[1:27:27] the Department of War. even though the sign says it is. So, one of the things that DARPA has been working on for years is a robot to replace the soldier. There were two things holding them back. We just we can put a man on the moon. We cannot develop a long life battery. We just can't. Now, Elon Musk kind of has. Uh, and

[1:27:57] another thing is to actually control the robot. Until very recently, it had to be physically attached to the controller. You couldn't do it remotely until recently. And so, they're not quite ready to fight wars yet. But that technology was developed along with the robot dogs, which scare the [ __ ] out of you when you see them. Um, that was also developed as the same at the same time that drones were. And we we already saw in the Russia Ukraine war. That's the future of warfare.

[1:28:30] The Iranians manufacture drones faster than the United States does. That's the future of warfare. They're just sending they call them suicide drones because they're cheap. They c they cost between5 and $10,000 to manufacture and you just attach an explosive onto it and fly it into a building or fly it into a radar installation or you know an airport control tower or whatever. >> Can't fly all the way from Iran to the US possibly. >> No. Uh but it can fly from Iran to Israel. It could probably make it to

[1:29:02] Kiti. That's what we've been told. >> Yeah. Um, they can't make it as far as Diego Garcia. That's why the Iranians experimented with these missiles. They fired two missiles that were intercepted. They didn't need to be intercepted. The Iranians stripped them down. So, they didn't have anything inside them except the engines. And because they were that much lighter, they would have made it all the way to Diego Garcia. So, they're experimenting. We're going to come to the point someday

[1:29:33] when they're going to be like the Iranians would able would be able to hit Western Europe. We're not there yet, but it's coming. But the thing is, if these things only cost $10,000, I mean, the US ones cost what? $150,000 because they fire missiles and they've got, you know, cameras and all this stuff. The Iranian ones just have GPS and they just go. But um yeah, and then the American ones after they fire their missiles, they

[1:30:04] turn around and go back to the base. So they're reusable. But if if you're only going to spend $10,000, you can make a million of them, more than that, and just attack anybody you want. One of the things that we learned in the in the 12-day war between Israel and Iran, the the Iranians practiced something that we called strategic patience. The Israelis say the Iranians are an existential threat and they fire

[1:30:34] missiles and the Iranians take it and then they say well you know public opinion insists that we respond. So they call the Israelis and they say, "We're going to send 600 drones, slow motion drones, and they go over Iraq, and then they go over Jordan, and then by the time they get to Israel, the Israelis shoot them down with the American uh Iron Dome missiles."

[1:31:07] Seven of them got through. How's that possible? That's valuable intelligence. The Iron Dome is not all it's cracked up to be. And the thing is, let's say the Israelis have a thousand missiles to protect themselves from the Iron Dome. The Iranians send 10,000 drones. You can't stop everyone. >> And the missiles cost more than the drones. >> Way more than the drones. There was this joke in the American media. Like, how many times are the Americans going to

[1:31:37] use a million dollar missile to shoot down a $10,000 drone? You know, we've got these aircraft carriers. We're like, "Oh, we have the 12 aircraft carriers. The Chinese only have one and the Russians have one. We have 12." Yeah. Nobody cares anymore because that's not the future of warfare. Okay. You're going to use a Sidewinder missile to to protect the aircraft carrier from a drone. That's great. How you going to protect from 5,000 drones? You can't. And then what are you going

[1:32:08] to do when they sink an aircraft carrier? So, it's a volumes game. >> It's a volume game and it's changing very quickly and the Americans are ready for it. >> It's a bit closer to home. Speaking of the drones, recently one drone hit a which is a UK base here in Cyprus. What do you make of that? >> I make that the Israelis decided we need to get the Americans, the British, the Criates, the Greeks more interested. We're going to send a drone. It's not going to do any damage and then we're going to blame it on the Iranians. >> Yeah. because it was initially said that

[1:32:39] it was an Iranian drug. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. And then when that story didn't stick, they just stopped talking about it. >> Speaking of Israel and Cyprus, it's common knowledge here in the island that they own a large section of land. >> Yes. >> How do you think Israel influences Cyprus if if it if it does? >> That's actually a tough question. And you know th this is so much bigger than Cyprus. It's so much bigger than Greece

[1:33:10] and Cyprus and it has many moving parts. When I first started going to Greece, the first time I went to Greece, I just turned 20. Is that right? Yes. I had just turned 20. And the Greeks were very, very close with the Arabs. Very, very close. All the Palestinian groups had representatives in uh in Athens. There's a Libyan embassy in Athens. There's a Syrian embassy in Athens, very close. Same in Cyprus. They were close

[1:33:40] to the Arabs because the Turks and the Israelis were close. Turkey had an embassy in Jerusalem. The Israelis had an embassy in Ankura. And everybody's happy. And then Erdogan decided, I don't like these Jews. And uh next thing you know, I mean, it happened almost overnight that the Israelis and the Turks begin clashing. And then the Greeks and the Criates see an opportunity. Hey, the Israelis are strong. They're well financed.

[1:34:12] Maybe we would be better off allying with the Israelis. If the Turks are going to fight the Israelis, maybe the Israelis would help protect us from the Turks. Something that both the Greeks and the Criates are always worried about with good reason. So these odd alliances formed and then gas was discovered, an ocean of gas, and the Israelis said, "We can help you lift the gas." And American companies and French

[1:34:43] companies and British and everybody has a piece of it, but the Turks want their peace. Well, the Turks don't get a peace because it's not their country and because they're a belligerent in the region. And then the Turks send a battleship, the French send a battleship, the Israelis send a battleship, and the Turks stop and they don't do anything. >> The unfortunate timing of the gas, it was right after the financial crisis. So, it was like >> instead of right before

[1:35:13] >> it was like a lot of hope. >> Yeah. uh for us and we're still waiting for the gas to be extracted. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to be easy. >> So, for anyone who doesn't know, in 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus and illegally occupied the north. >> Yes. >> They never left. No. >> Half the island is still under Turkish military control today. And the other half is in the EU. And there is a UN buffer zone that runs through the capital and is the longest unresolved

[1:35:43] diplomatic standoff in the western world. When we first met, John, you told me that you were a quarter criate and that when you looked out of your hotel room window, you saw the flag that on the occupied side, Turkish flag. >> Yes. >> How did that make you feel? >> I got here I got to Nicoia after dark. So, I checked into the hotel and I walked out onto the balcony to call a criate friend of mine to say, "I've arrived and as I'm

[1:36:13] talking to her, I look up and I see the flag." And I said, "What the [ __ ] is that?" She said, "What?" I said, "There's a giant flag over here and they start turning lights on." And she said, "Oh my god, you've not seen the flag before?" I said, "No, it's like they put it in our face." And I was like, "These bastards." And she said, "Yeah, that's exactly why they did it. Just to rub it in." >> And they're going to It's like they're saying, "What are you going to do about

[1:36:44] it?" I'll tell you, I I spoke at the Criate Diaspora Forum yesterday and somebody asked me if I had ever been to the occupied part and I said, you know, I I had never been, but I met with the mayor of Nicosia on Monday and he told me, you really should go. We went to the top of the municipality, the the what is it, the the Montego >> and I mean it's like it's 70 meters. it's from here to there. And so he's

[1:37:16] pointing things out. He's showing me. He said, "You really should go and experience it for yourself." So I decided to go the next day on Tuesday. And I decided I'm not going to spend one single euro while I'm there. I don't want to contribute in any way to the Turkish economy. So I go and I'm there for 45 minutes. And I said to my friend, I feel like I need to take a shower.

[1:37:46] I want to go back. I can't do this. And so I turned around and we went we went back. >> A lot of people say it's like traveling back in time. It >> that's exactly what it's like. Like traveling back in time. And I said to the mayor when we were up on the roof, I said, "Surely the Turks are looking over at our side and they're saying, "My god, look at the development. Look at these big buildings and economic growth and there are nice cars over there and

[1:38:16] people are living in beautiful houses and apartments. Surely they must be jealous. And he said, "Of course they are. But the Turkish government isn't going to make any changes. That'll look like weakness. They'll never they'll never evacuate." And one thing I wanted to point out, and I said this at the forum yesterday, literally every single criate that I've met with this week, literally everyone has said, "We have no problems whatsoever with the Turkish

[1:38:47] criates. We lived like brothers and sisters with them for centuries. It's the Turkish occupiers and the Turkish settlers that we have the problem with." >> Exactly. >> And I think that that's very important. >> Yeah, it is very true. >> Yeah. What would you say to all of the to the thousands of immigrants of refugees, excuse me, that want to go back? >> Yeah. >> To their home. Do you think they ever have chance? >> I would say never give up. And the only reason why I say that is because over

[1:39:18] the last 10 years or so, there have been a handful of lawsuits in the uh European Court of Justice where people have bought confiscated criate land, especially these Brits. There was even a television show on the National Geographic channel about these British retirees retiring into northern Cypress. It's not the Turks land to sell. It's

[1:39:51] Criate land. And these British are buying the land and they're building a house. Oh, it's so nice to live in Cyprus. Look, it's so cheap. It's cheap because you're using Turkish lera. So, a couple of of Greek criates have sued these British in the European Court of Justice to get their land back and they've won. So, you know, maybe one suit at a time,

[1:40:23] one property at a time. I think that what we should be aspiring to do is to crash the economy of northern Cyprus. Crash the economy to the point where the Turks say it's not worth it anymore. Maybe that's going to take another hundred years. Who knows? But just sue everybody >> and crash the economy. Even if the economy goes down, is it still worth it for them for the intelligence that they can gather? >> See, that's a good question.

[1:40:56] It It probably is. It probably is. And they have intelligence outlets all over the place. Famagusta, uh, Moru in the mountains, they're all over the place. So probably although you know that now that I'm thinking about it that might be another one of those examples where where the technology is developing so quickly that maybe we get to the point where they don't need to be here physically. They could just pull it out

[1:41:27] of the sky out of the satellites or whatever. >> Do you think there's active intelligence happening across the buffer zone on both the >> 100%? 100% yes. I would bet my next paycheck on it. >> What would that look like? Because human intelligence. Well, certainly there's signals intelligence. You can see the antennas. >> Um, so obviously the the the Criate government is intercepting the communications of of

[1:41:58] probably Turkish military units. It's probably meaningless, but you just do it as a matter of course. But certainly the Turks are trying to intercept most likely cpriate government communications, military communications, and certainly the British as well. I mean, they're trying to intercept the British communications is what I'm saying. Um, at the same time, it's not hard for one side to infiltrate the the other. It's not hard. Uh, have you ever heard of Savas Galanderis?

[1:42:29] Seas was the most he's the most famous and most important former Greek spy who ever existed. I'm proud to call him a friend. Savas speaks Turkish without an accent. And he was able to live in Smittney as a Turk for like eight years, 10 years. and he would, you know, run his little shop all day and at night he would go in the mountains and spy on the Turks and

[1:43:01] provided incredible intelligence. Back to the Greek intelligence service, the ape. We need more people like that. >> Yeah. What do you where do you think this criate intelligence stands today? I only dealt with cypriate intelligence once and it was 34 years ago. I'm I'm so sorry to say >> and it wasn't very good. >> Um I'm going to make an educated guess here

[1:43:33] because I I don't know from firsthand experience, but my guess is because cooperation is so close between the Criates and the Israelis that Criate intelligence is probably very good by now. So would you say that the world underestimates how much foreign intelligent work is happening currently on this island? >> Oh, Cyprus is like is like Vienna in the 1960s. Everybody's here. Everybody because it's

[1:44:03] a crossroads, you know, the Americans, the British, the French, the Russians, the Israelis, the Chinese, everybody's here. Plus, it's a nice place. You know, Vienna's cold in the winter. It's nice here. So yeah, this is this is a hot bed of intelligence activity. Definitely. >> Who do you think is here with >> all of those that I just mentioned? >> All of them. >> Sure. >> 100%. >> 100%. Absolutely. Yes. >> That's very interesting because it doesn't feel like this, but I guess reason.

[1:44:33] >> Yeah. You would never notice it. I'll tell you one funny thing. When I was in CIA operations training, um we had to buy a rubber ball, right? They actually tasked us. They made us go out and buy a rubber ball >> and we had to stick the rubber ball on the radio antenna of our car so that the instructors when they were teaching us surveillance and surveillance detection, they could see the rubber ball so they didn't lose the car. For years after I

[1:45:05] left the CIA, when cars still had the antenna for years after I left the CIA, I would see cars with these rubber balls and I would smile to myself because it was the next class of CIA students >> taking the surveillance and surveillance detection course. It's the same thing here. They're they're just in regular cars. They look like regular people. You would never notice them. >> Have you spotted anyone while you're here? >> Here, no. Um, in Athens, I do with some regularity. Yeah. >> Is it because there's more intelligence

[1:45:35] or are they less careful? Maybe >> it's probably a combination of the two. >> Combination of both. >> Yeah. >> Um, hypothetical question. In an alternate universe where you never answered the the phone for that ABC interview, what would John's life look like [snorts] today in 2026? >> My ex-wife asked that question one time. She said, ' Where do you think we would be?' And I said, 'I would be just

[1:46:05] getting ready to retire from the CIA. I would be recovering from my first heart attack and I would be 50 pounds overweight. And she said, "Yeah, that's probably right." >> So yeah, you know, I would have done my 30 years or 25 because if you have five years overseas, you can retire at full pension five years early. >> So I would have had my 25 years at the CIA. I would retire immediately go to work for an intelligence contractor >> making double what I was making or

[1:46:35] triple and you know we would have a house at the beach and the children are grown but life takes these very strange twists and turns and I'll tell you what I I wouldn't change anything that may sound crazy but on the day of my arrest I called my brother to say I'd been arrested and I told him you know what was happening And he he said, I don't even know how he had the presence of mind to say this, but he said, "I know you can't see this right

[1:47:06] now, but this is going to turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you." And it took me 14 years. But he was right. >> Why was that? Most importantly, you get to see who your true friends are and who your true enemies are. And they may not be the ones that you think. I had family members walk away from me,

[1:47:36] >> close family. >> I had this one cousin with the same name >> and surname and he said, "You know, I have to walk away from you. You brought shame to our family. I said, I brought shame to our family. You think I don't know that you're the cocaine dealer for the mayor of Alexandria, Virginia? You think that I didn't recognize that it was you that they were talking about in the Washington Post? [ __ ] you. I said, "You think I don't know that you were doing

[1:48:06] drug deals with the Colombians and you're standing on the beach in Miami waiting for them to drop the drugs from a plane and I brought shame to our family? [ __ ] you. You're a drug trafficker. You brought shame to our family. I never spoke to him again. Another thing, my marriage didn't survive this. >> Which one? >> My second. You they they I mean, she had to make a choice. Is she going to be on the side of the CIA or she's going to be with me? >> And she was a CIA officer as well. >> Yes.

[1:48:38] >> Did it impact her career at all? Her decision >> momentarily. >> Momentarily. >> Yeah. Now she's the CEO of a defense contractor. >> So John, last thing before I let you go. I have a present for you. >> Thank you. You didn't have to do that. >> So as you know, Cyprus gets his name gets its name from copper. >> Yes. >> It's the color of the flag as well. And this here gift >> is a water vessel. It's a traditional

[1:49:08] water vessel. >> Oh, it's beautiful. May I take it out and show everybody? Oh my gosh, it's fantastic. And I know where exactly where I'm going to put it. I love it. >> This can be used for water and it is handmade. It is from one of the last vendors that makes it from the corporate that is extracted from the ground. >> And it's handmade as well. >> Thank you so much. >> I wanted you to have a piece of cypress when you go back. >> Thank you very much. I'll treasure it. It even has the stamp inside. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you so much for joining me, John. >> Thank you. >> It was a pleasure.

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