[00:00] The CIA will so ruin a person whose politics they don't [music] like that he can never work again. I did 23 months in a federal prison. >> We went to [music] war in Iran because of Israel? >> Absolutely, yes. The Iranians [music] were no threat to the United States. I believed Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad access agent. The Shin Bet officer, he had his glasses down like this. He says [music] to me, "You are Jewish?" And I said, "I am [music] not
[00:30] recruitable." >> I assume that there are things that you know that you still can't say. >> Absolutely. >> How bad are they? >> Yeah, it's it's pretty ugly. >> One advisor said that once Trump receives a call from an international number he doesn't recognize, he answers it anyway. He just sees the number and thinks this might be a foreign leader I want to talk to. >> It's got to be a [music] dozen different countries listening to these calls. Absolutely, yes. I know what we used to do at the CIA. >> Do you agree that it is at least concerning for some people that it should be concerning for some people as a former spy, that a former CIA agent
[01:00] turned whistleblower then ends up working for the Russian government? My guest today has a life story straight out of a Hollywood movie. A former CIA agent who turned whistleblower on CIA torture and then experienced the wrath of one of the most feared intelligence agencies in the world. John Kiriakou went from the shadows of counterterrorism work in Pakistan and prison in the United States to the bright lights and filters of social media today, garnering millions of views
[01:32] from online followers who want to hear more of his stories and his takes. He's now host of the Deep Focus podcast on YouTube, author of several books with one new one out this summer, and he joins me now here in the studio in Washington, D.C. John, good to see you again. Good to see you. A lot to talk about, but let's just go out to the beginning for those of our viewers who don't know about you and your story. A fascinating story. You were at the CIA, you joined and became a Middle East analyst Um, all the way up to being named chief of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan at the height of
[02:02] the war on terror. Why did you join the CIA and why did you end up leaving? >> Well, I come from an immigrant family. All four of my grandparents came from from Greece and they were so grateful for the opportunities that the country gave them that they instilled in us this notion that we needed to give something back to the country. So, I only considered public service. I was thinking maybe the State Department, maybe something on Capitol Hill. I wanted to see the world and travel and then my graduate school
[02:34] advisor turned out to be a CIA officer undercover. >> That happens a lot, right? At universities across not just universities across the board. >> Across the board. It's not as >> Now, everyone at home is wondering which university did you go to? >> Oh, it was George Washington University. The since the passage >> DC based. Since passage of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1993, that's illegal to do it clandestinely like that. Now, they have professors who are the scholar in residence and they just do it out in the open. They did
[03:04] have little stalls now at Chris. >> Join the CIA. >> They do. >> Why did you leave the CIA in 2004? >> Well, you know, I wish I could say that I left on principle. That was a part of it. The CIA had changed but I was newly divorced. I had two little boys at home and especially boys need their father and I decided rather than to go back to Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan, I was going to stay with my sons and so that's why >> the CIA in 2004, 22 years ago and then you do an interview with ABC where you
[03:37] confirm, this is during the Bush administration still, right? That official US government policy permits interrogators to use enhanced techniques, which is a polite way of saying torture techniques to get information out of prisoners at black sites, etc. What made you go public after all those years of having left the CIA and taking this big step? And explain to our viewers what happened to you after that. >> Sure. I complained vociferously inside the CIA about the torture program. I'm I'm sorry to say that of of 14 people approached
[04:08] and asked if they wanted to be trained uh in in the use of these torture techniques, I was the only one of the 14 who said no. And I thought this was so clearly illegal, immoral, unethical, somebody was going to come out and say something, and nobody said anything. And then in December of 2007, Brian Ross approached me from ABC News and said that he had a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah, Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad Husayn. I said, "Absolutely untrue. I
[04:39] was the only person who was ever kind to Abu Zubaydah." And he said, "Well, you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself." I didn't know that was a reporter's trick because I'd never spoken with a reporter before. And so I said >> 2007, right? >> 2007. I said, "I'll think about it." In the meantime, while I'm thinking about it, President Bush gives a press conference in which he looks directly in the camera and says, "We do not torture." And I said to my wife, who was a senior CIA officer, I said, "He is a bald-faced liar. He's looking the American people in the eye and just
[05:10] lying to them." And then a couple of days later, as he's walking to the Marine One helicopter, he shouts in response to a reporter's question that if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer. >> Oh, wow. >> And I said to my wife, "Brian Ross's source is at the White House, and they're going to pin this on me. I'm going to go public." And I decided that I would just tell the truth and let the cards fall. Within 24 hours of that interview, the CIA filed what's called a
[05:40] crimes report against me um telling the FBI that I that they believed I had committed espionage by revealing a classified program. The FBI investigated me for a year from December of '07 to December of '08 and determined I had not committed a crime. Just 4 weeks later Barack Obama becomes president. He names my old nemesis John Brennan the Deputy National Security Advisor for counterterrorism. And Brennan asks the Justice Department
[06:11] to secretly reopen the case against me. They did that. For the next 3 years my phones were tapped, my emails were intercepted, teams of FBI agents followed me everywhere. And then finally in January of 2012 more than 4 years after I went public uh they arrested me and charged me with five felonies including three counts of espionage. >> Liking this video? Then don't just watch. Hit like, share, and subscribe. And tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then
[12:54] >> [clears throat] >> when it gets to the 30-year or 35-year mark. Now, generally, you have to file a Freedom of Information Act request to to force the declassification, but I'm happy to just tell the stories. And besides, my opinion is not classified so long as it's not based on specifically classified information. >> that there are things that you know that you still can't say. How bad are they? >> Yeah, it's it's pretty ugly. >> You mentioned Steven Bartlett's show. You said on Diary of a CEO in January,
[13:25] you said I'm the most anti-CIA former CIA person that's out there. And you justified it by saying that the CIA is an organization that's just out of control. What do you mean by that? And when did it go out of control? Cuz many would argue it's always been out of control. >> Oh, it it was out of control from its first covert action program, which was to steal the Italian election of 1949, until the the Church Committee hearings. Between 1975 and about 1982, there was real oversight, something that
[13:56] Americans could be proud of. >> The Jimmy Carter presidency. >> The Jimmy Carter presidency. Frank Church was serious, Otis Pike was serious, the congressman from Long Island. They were serious about reforming the CIA and really overseeing its activities. But that all went out the window with Iran-Contra. >> Iran-Contra, and then obviously the war on terror, which takes the CIA into a whole different world. >> And this is the big problem. The war on terror is the most obvious example. The The Senate Select Committee on
[14:26] Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence really are not oversight committees. They're cheerleading committees. >> Yes. >> And they don't do anything to rein in the CIA. They didn't do anything to rein in >> The opposite. They emboldened the CIA. >> They emboldened the CIA. The assassination program, the secret prison program, the torture program, the rendition program. >> It was put at the heart of the war on terror. >> It was. >> Not the Pentagon. It was the CIA. >> Very much. It was the CIA. >> In 2019, John former CIA director to Mike Pompeo, who went on to be Secretary
[14:57] of State, told a crowd at Texas A&M University, "What's the cadet motto at West Point? You will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do. I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole." I mean, I mean, obviously he was saying "I'm joking." But from the horse's mouth. >> Yeah. That was a really stupid thing to say. I mean, it was true, of course, but it was a really stupid thing to say in public because it's exactly what people want to hear from a CIA director so that they can use it against the CIA. Not that they don't deserve it.
[15:28] >> Mhm. >> They deserve it. >> Do you agree with people who say the CIA is a rogue agency that needs to be shut down? >> Yes. I'm I'm on record as saying that I think the CIA should be shut down. And you know, we've got >> Not enough people say that though. >> No, not enough >> I mean, Democrats are too scared to say abolish ICE. I >> [laughter] >> I've never heard the slogan abolish CIA. Maybe we're coining it here today on Media Unfiltered. Abolish CIA. Maybe a Democratic presidential candidate in 2028 could run on that. >> Most countries have one intelligence service. Some have two. The United States has 18.
[15:58] >> 18? Which are currently being managed by Tulsi Gabbard. >> Tulsi Gabbard. >> Um do you regret anything you did during your time at the CIA? >> Oh, sure. Sure. I've told the story about a morning early on in my career. I was an analyst working on Iraq. This was early 1993, and every branch in the CIA meets every day at 9:00. Everybody has their little, you know, lowest-level branch meeting just
[16:29] to talk about what happened in the part of the world that you cover overnight. So, I was in my 9:00 meeting, and the secretary came in kind of perplexed. And she said, "John, General Powell is on the phone for you." And I said, "General Powell? I said, how does he know who I am?" >> Colin Powell. >> Colin Powell. He was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time. And she said, "I don't know, but he asked for you by name." So, my I looked at my boss. He said, "Well, go answer the phone." So, I went to my secure line, and I said, "Good morning, General Powell. May
[16:59] I help you?" And he says, cuts right to the chase. He says, "John, if the Iraqis were going to try to kill the president, who would be in charge of an operation like that?" I said, "Well, if you're talking about the attempt to kill President it was George H.W. Bush um in Kuwait, uh Kuwait operations are run from the Iraqi Intelligence Service Basra station, but Basra station is headed by the director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, Sabir Abdul Aziz al-Douri. And he said, "Where does he physically sit?" And I said, "In Iraqi Intelligence Service headquarters."
[17:31] And he says, "Thank you." And he hangs up the phone. I go back in the into the meeting. They said, "What do you want?" So, I told them what he wanted and went about my day. That night we fired 47 cruise missiles into Iraqi Intelligence headquarters and we we vaporized it. But, we killed the janitor. And I went to the office the next day after having read the the news reports and I said to my boss, "I killed that janitor yesterday." And he said, "I knew you were going to say that. You didn't kill the janitor.
[18:01] Powell killed the janitor. You just answered his question. You didn't know what he was going to do with the information." But, it's bothered me all these years. You know, we bombed the place in the middle of the night because we didn't want there to be a massive loss of life. >> the argument will be. >> But, the one like the most innocent person in the entire Iraqi Intelligence Service, the janitor, that's the guy. >> I hate to say it, but that story almost sounds quaint. We now live in a world where we killed 120 school girls on day one of this war. >> And don't bat an eye. >> And don't bat an eye. Uh, won't even take responsibility for it. >> Scandalous.
[18:32] >> We'll come back to that in a moment. Just on on CIA and people asking you questions about your time. A lot of people I'm assuming ask you to confirm or debunk conspiracy theories. >> I get it all the time. >> Uh, one of the biggest ones of recent years that turned out not to be that much of a conspiracy theory, but just a real conspiracy was one involving Jeffrey Epstein >> Yes. >> uh, and his ties to the rich and powerful, uh, but also his ties to foreign governments. Um, Israel comes up a lot. Obviously, there are other governments, the Russian government, etc. But, to your mind, was Jeffrey Epstein A, a foreign agent for Israel,
[19:03] B, a foreign agent for any other government? >> I [snorts] said from the very very beginning and took it on the chin for saying that I believed Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad access agent. And what an access agent is, it's different from a recruited spy. >> You know, like a freelance fixer type person. >> Yeah, if you if you are a government and you want information from the richest and most powerful people in the world, you're not going to recruit them. You you have nothing that they can't get.
[19:36] >> Intermediary. >> You you go to an intermediary. Somebody who can get close to them. Somebody who can wine them and dine them. >> But why wouldn't he be working for lots of governments and making money? Why is Israel >> as it turned out, it looked like he was trying to. So, I accused him of being an Israeli access agent. I still believe he was an Israeli access agent, but we know from this most recent tranche of of documents that he had volunteered to the CIA, volunteered to the FBI, volunteered to MI5 and MI6 and the Germans and was
[20:06] really really trying to get a meeting with the Russians. They wouldn't allow a meeting directly with uh Vladimir Putin. They offered him a group of of as many as four intelligence officials and he said no, he wanted Putin directly. So, he was out there trying to ingratiate himself with a variety of intelligence services. >> mean, he aimed high and he got high. >> And got high. >> He got MBS. There's a whole story about how he got in with the Saudis to get him a meeting with them. >> Yes. >> Um what about Ghislaine Maxwell, his part literal partner in crime? Was she spying for Israel? Her father, the late father Robert Maxwell, the publisher in
[20:37] the UK, he was alleged to be in the Mossad spy. >> Yeah, I think the evidence is pretty solid that he was a spy for Mossad. And it's not at all unusual for parents to offer up their children once their children have access to the kind of information that an organization like Mossad would have. I wouldn't be surprised at all. >> So, let's talk a little bit more about Israel. Did you work with the Mossad during your time at the CIA? And what is your impression of them, if so? >> Um yes and no.
[21:07] >> Okay. >> The very first briefing that I ever gave, I'd been on the job for 6 weeks. And my boss said, "Listen, you're going to do your first liaison briefing. It's going to be the Israelis. It's Mossad and Shin Bet, the two representatives at the at the embassy here in Washington. And, you know, here's the way we do it." He laid it out. He said, "We do not allow the Israelis into the building. We used to, but every time they would come, they would bring gifts. And the gifts were always laden with listening devices
[21:38] and batteries and, you know, microphones. And they were trying to bug the conference room table, and it was just terrible. And then we would catch them every time. You x-ray everything that comes in, and they would laugh and say, 'Oh, oh, it's just a misunderstanding. Oh.' So, they're not allowed in the building. We have to rent a space, and we meet with them in this offsite space. So, because I was the most junior person giving the briefing that day, I went last. And the senior analyst went first, and then the political analyst, the military
[22:08] analyst, the economic analyst, the oil analyst, and then finally they got to me. Because I was an overt employee at the time, not undercover, I used my real name. And so, the Shin Bet officer, he had his glasses down like this, and he said, "Spell your name." So, I spell it. And in front of all my colleagues, he says to me, "You are, Jewish?" And I said, "I am not recruitable. Don't even think about trying to recruit me." I was furious.
[22:41] So, I go back to the office, and my boss said, "How did the How did the briefing go?" And I said, "He He tried to recruit me right in front of everybody." And he laughed, and he said, "They do that to every one of us." So, I made a point of staying away from the Israelis for much of the remainder of my career. We had this thing called the the exchange where we would send officers to Israel once a year, they would send officers to the United States once a year and we would have this intelligence
[23:12] exchange. And I elected instead to go to the Arab countries. I I wasn't interested in the Israeli stuff. >> Arabic speaker, I believe. >> Yeah, and I'm an Arabic speaker. So we had this thing called the the exchange. I declined the exchange. I didn't want to go to Israel not officially. I didn't want to be harassed. I instead went to almost every one of the the Arab countries. I felt more comfortable there and and made my my career in the Arab countries. I finally went to Israel for the very first time
[23:42] as a as a tourist in 2022, but I did not go to >> you a visa fine? >> You know, I have to say I was shocked that they gave me the visa. >> get to Ben Gurion Airport, what happens? >> No problem at all. >> I get more problems than you going into Israel. >> believe it. >> I get more problems than John. Um You said in the past the Israelis have no rules, quote, they'll kill anybody. They'll kill a thousand people just to kill you. Why then is the US such a close ally of such a country? >> Yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question and
[24:14] and there's no there's no answer to it. The the context of the quote that you just read was I was talking in some podcast or news broadcast about Israel's policy of being perfectly happy to blow up an entire city block, an entire block of apartment buildings if they think there's one Hezbollah leader inside or one Iranian scientist or one Iranian military leader. They don't care about civilian casualties. They'll just blow the entire place up and they know that
[24:46] the United States isn't going to say anything and they don't care if any other country says anything and they know they'll get away with it. So they continue to do it. >> You recently tweeted that it's not the Russians influencing American elections, Israel is. Um, are you referring to the pro-Israel lobby, groups like AIPAC, or are you referring to the Israeli government? >> No, I I was referring to AIPAC, but let's not pretend that AIPAC isn't tied to the Israeli government. >> think he should register as a foreign agent? >> 1,000% yes. >> Is that your opinion, or is that based on evidence evidence you have? >> my opinion. But, you know, I was on
[25:17] Capitol Hill for years as well. I I I spent I spent several years as the senior investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee working for John Kerry. And and I'd been on the house side before that. So, I knew how things worked up there. But, AIPAC will will assign a young, you know, staff member lobbyist to every to every office. And and these kids will just sit there in the in the anteroom, in the outer area of the office, and
[25:49] interact with constituents, interact with other lobbyists, try to get involved in every piece of legislation that's either written or sponsored or co-sponsored. >> There's a piece in New York Magazine this week about Senator John Fetterman having a friend, a very pro-Israeli friend buddy, who's not an official member of team, but sits in on calls with Netanyahu, sits in on meetings with government officials, apparently is the person who tells him everything he needs to hear about Israel. Such is the reporting from New York Magazine. >> I don't understand why everybody else
[26:20] has to register as as a foreign agent, even if you're not a foreign agent. I'll give you an example. Back in 2008, I won a very small contract to write four or five op-eds in support of the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce. Okay? Do business in Abu Dhabi, it's really great. They have plenty of money, you know, free capitalism, whatever. I had to register as a foreign lobbyist. But, AIPAC can spend millions upon millions
[26:51] of dollars in American elections which would directly benefit the state of Israel and they don't have to >> They argue that we are all Americans fighting for American interests but I think more and more Americans are questioning that narrative. >> May I add one other thing? So I got a I got a call I'm going to say about 6 months ago from a from a Democratic state senator from Texas. And he followed my case and my notoriety and and he said hey I'd like to do a a a declaration John Kiriakou Day. I said
[27:23] hey thank you that's that's going to be fun. You get a nice certificate and it's signed by the governor it's got a big gold seal on it. So he said yeah I'm going to I'll sponsor it he said we do about 150 of these a year and I'll let you know. I said great. He calls me a few weeks later. He said yeah that that resolution that's not going to happen. I said oh okay what happened? He said AIPAC objected. I said in the Texas state legislature to a non-binding resolution and he said yeah. Yeah it's not going to happen.
[27:55] >> Do you believe we went to war in Iran because of Israel? >> Absolutely yes. The Iranians were no threat to the United States. >> But there was not a faction of American hawks that wanted to do it regardless of Israel. >> Oh there there always will be the the neocons uh >> Military industrial complex the neoconservatives >> Absolutely the DNC [clears throat] Democrats absolutely yes. Yes you're always going to have haters >> But Israel but Israel was pushing it. >> Israel was pushing it. Israel had been pushing it since the '80s the 1980s. I can tell you from when I from my time at the CIA
[28:26] Matty literally every Israeli prime minister this isn't specific to Benjamin Netanyahu but every prime minister of Israel when they would come regardless of who the president happened to be would say please bomb Iran please bomb Iran please bomb Iran. >> I think John Kerry affirmed that point recently saying we we were asked we said no everyone Every president Donald Trump. We will come back to Donald Trump in 1 second. Just on Iran, a lot of hawks in the US say this isn't about Israel. Iran has been a threat to the US. Iran has killed American soldiers in Iraq. You were there at the time. Sure.
[28:57] What do you say to that? >> Sure, it's true. Iran has killed American soldiers. It's true that the Iranians tried to kill me in 2001. That doesn't mean I want to attack and invade the country and overthrow its government and fire missiles and kill school girls and you know, we've got to pick and choose our our our fights. The the Iranians were no threat to the United States or to the stability of the United States. The Iranians did not have a nuclear program and that's not John saying it. >> They had a nuclear program, not a nuclear weapons program. >> nuclear weapons program. That's not John
[29:29] saying it. That's two national intelligence estimates done by all 18 members of the US intelligence community. >> Tulsi Gabbard repeated it in Congress >> In Congress and besides the fact that Ayatollah Khamenei had issued a fatwa in 2003 declaring it a sin. >> So, here's what's interesting. You told Joe Rogan last October, quote, "Call me crazy, but I think that if there's going to be peace with Iran, Donald Trump is going to make that peace with Iran." Can I call you crazy now? >> Yeah, yeah. Call me crazy. I I
[29:59] >> You got it wrong. >> I was I was totally wrong. >> And it wasn't just you. A lot of people thought Trump was going to be anti-war. I met Muslim friends of mine who said, "Trump's going to be anti-war. Kamala Harris is a neocon. Joe Biden's a Zionist. Trump's going to be anti-war." And it's turned out that the guy has attacked what, seven countries last year? He did Venezuela at the start of this year. He's done Iran and now apparently Cuba any day now. >> How did you get it wrong? >> I really believed that that I really believed that he really believed he had a chance of winning the Nobel Peace Prize. And I said on the Joe
[30:31] Rogan's show, I said, "Listen, we used to say only Nixon could go to China, right?" And I said, "Maybe only Trump can go to Tehran." Not literally. Maybe Trump goes to Riyadh and Mohammed bin Salman >> I mean Michael literally went literally to North Korea. >> Yeah, that's true too. He crossed in. Yes. >> If they built him a Trump Tower in Tehran, I reckon >> be there. He'd be there. So I I I thought there was a real chance that this might happen. Although I also have been repeatedly accused of being overly optimistic about
[31:02] things. >> Yeah, look Trump had a record as a whole, right? He had already killed Qassem Soleimani in his first term. You know that you follow foreign policy. >> But you still believe there was a chance with him. He's so unorthodox. >> Yeah. >> Some of us were saying the opposite. That don't believe the >> Right. He's a warmonger. >> And completely >> he's a warmonger. To come back to Netanyahu Netanyahu kind of bragged that for 40 years I couldn't find an American president who would do what I say. >> Yeah. >> And this guy was basically dumb enough and impressionable enough to believe me that straight up home moves would be fine and the regime would fall. >> that's the key. The key is that Netanyahu convinced [clears throat] him
[31:34] that the Iranian government was a house of cards and it would just collapse. As soon as hostilities began, as soon as the missile started flying, it would collapse. And >> But even George W. Bush did not do Iran. >> That's right. >> Donald Trump did Iran and I think you're right. I think ironically if he'd got the Nobel Peace Prize he might not have done it. He's actually said publicly, "Well, I should I don't care about peace anymore cuz I didn't get a peace prize." child. Um in a rare moment in US history, the US intelligence community did not even bother to manufacture consent for this war. >> No. >> Right? The CIA, the DIA, they normally
[32:06] they say, you know, with Cuba now they're doing this whole leaking of they've got drones and they could hit Miami and all this With Iran they didn't even bother. He just bombed. They didn't even try and make a case. As you say the the Tulsi Gabbard, the National Intelligence said the opposite. That there are no evidence of nuclear weapons. The Ayatollah has not decided to build nuclear weapons. The question is, do you think the intelligence community could have done something to stop it? We've had some kind of carefully timed leaks. But do you think people within your former agency and other agencies they're clearly pissed about this. They you can see that they're not happy. Could they have done
[32:36] more? I know we talk about a deep state, but it doesn't seem to be a very powerful deep state if it couldn't stop Donald Trump and Marco Rubio. >> No, I think you're right. Rubio, that's a whole that's a whole conversation right there. Um no, I think you're right. They they could have done more. They could have leaked more. They could have put their collective foot down and and they didn't. They just saluted. >> And may I add something to that? >> Please. >> John Ratcliffe went to Cuba a week ago. The CIA director went to Cuba a week ago.
[33:06] And a couple of my colleagues, my former colleagues said, "Oh, that's good. Back-channel communication." I said, "Are you crazy? He's going to tell them, "We're going to overthrow you." We did the same thing to Gaddafi. And we sent the CIA director to to meet with Gaddafi and say, "The gig's up. You're going to go." >> I mean, Libya was a disaster. Venezuela so far militarily is not a disaster. That's emboldened Trump to do things like Iran, which is a disaster. Question is, where is Cuba a Venezuela or an
[33:37] Iran? >> [snorts] >> I don't know if you've ever been to Cuba. I went two years ago and several things struck me. First is how incredibly peaceful the Cuban people are. Literally every Cuban has a relative in Miami. >> Yeah. >> They just want to work and earn money for their families and live happily ever after. Uh and Cuba is not only no threat to us, they're worried about how many hours the electricity is going to be out and where food is coming. I I said something. Here's how what an idiot
[34:08] I am sometimes. I said something to a a waiter in the hotel where we were staying. I said, "Buddy, squash three times a day, every day. I'm squashed out. I can't eat any more squash. Certainly you have to have something besides squash. It's killing me." And he said, "The American embargo extends to food. We have to to what we grow, and this is squash season. >> That's Cuba. >> idea that it extended food. >> Do you think Cuba will end up a Venezuela or Iran if you had to predict?
[34:39] >> God forbid. I I I think it would end up a Venezuela. Nobody Nobody there has the stomach to fight. >> Raul Castro, they put a Delcy Rodriguez equivalent in? >> so. >> Um You went to Cuba 2 years ago, you said. >> Yes. >> When did you go to Israel? >> Uh in 2022. >> I'd love to see your passport. The stamps on your passport. >> I tell you, I get They put the red light on when I come back through immigration, and I look up and there's the red light, and I say, "Okay." And I give them my mantra, "I'm represented by counsel, and I don't talk to cops, and you cannot
[35:11] stop me from reentering my own country." >> But they'll know you at the airports that you're the ex-CIA >> Yes. >> And now podcaster. Um quick question on uh technology. Does Israel have spy technology that the US does not have, or does chooses not to use? >> Oh, I believe so. I believe that they do, and I believe that they use it against Americans, especially Americans who uh have the the guts to protest in front of the Israeli embassy. >> There's all this reporting that they've agreed not to use technology against Americans, the NSO Group and all these
[35:41] companies, the hacking of WhatsApp. >> take their word for it. Sure. Yes. >> You think they're spying on Americans with technology that they have developed, sometimes with America? >> I do. I do, yes. >> And we're seeing a lot of use of AI in warfare. Um the US reportedly used Anthropic's AI in its war with Iran. Uh Israel reportedly uses AI programs like Lavender and Where's Daddy, where they follow a militant into their home to kill them with their wife and kids. Um apparently only 20 seconds of human intervention to authorize a bombing once AI has decided on a target. How dangerous do you think, as someone who
[36:11] was in the war on terror as a CIA officer, how dangerous are these developments? >> Oh, I think they're incredibly dangerous, but they're more dangerous because there is no internal rule or regulation or policy for the Israelis to try to avoid killing civilians or innocents. They don't care about collateral damage. They'll just kill everybody who's in the area if they can be sure to get the target. One of the things about the Israelis, too, is they can't help
[36:42] themselves but to brag to the media about their successes. So, as an example, the Iranian uh nuclear scientists that have been killed, they've been wiped out. >> Yes, vetted. >> And the senior military officials, how? After the Iranian leadership said nobody was permitted to use cell phones. It didn't occur to them to tell the bodyguards that they couldn't use cell phones. And so, the Israelis just honed in on the cell phones of the bodyguards to geolocate their targets.
[37:12] >> But if you make remote killing that easy, and AI can pinpoint where people are, >> Right. >> what kind of checks and balances are there in a world where governments just can kill anyone anywhere anytime? >> this is like an episode of Star Trek. It really is. Where it's it's you get to the point where it's almost impossible to stop once it's been initiated. >> Earlier this year I interviewed Mark Steinberg, who's author of the book Philosopher in the Valley, which chronicles Alex Karp and his company Palantir. Uh he told me the tech bros have captured the state. Uh the US
[37:42] government has become over-reliant on these tech billionaires, these tech companies. They're in full, you know, they've got contracts with the Pentagon. They've been now integrated into the military uh planning and and execution. How worried are you that it's not just a deep state we should be worried about, but it's tech companies integrating themselves into our defense apparatus? >> Oh, I'm I'm deeply worried. You know, the CIA received a waiver in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks to create a venture capital firm, quasi-independent venture capital firm
[38:12] called In-Q-Tel. They thought it was cute. It's Intel with a letter Q in the middle as a nod to the James Bond character. >> Yes. >> The very first investment they made was something like a million and a half dollars to Palantir. And now Palantir's a multi-billion dollar concern. It is deeply integrated into the CIA. But besides Palantir, there are other companies. One, Abraxas, for example. Abraxas was set up when I was still at the agency. It was founded by a group of retired senior CIA
[38:43] officers who really set it up as a pass-through for to have a place where they could go, you know, drink coffee and smoke cigars and talk about, you know, all the scalps that they had uh had accumulated during the course of their career. And they started getting these counterterrorism uh contracts after 9/11. They all got rich. That's also a multi-billion dollar concern now tied to the CIA. When you couple that with the fact that well, we know from the from the Twitter
[39:13] papers, the Twitter files, that there were active-duty CIA, NSA, and FBI uh employees working at Twitter, at Meta, Instagram, Facebook, at all of the social media platforms, and then knowing what they're doing with In-Q-Tel and Palantir and Abraxas, et cetera, where are they not in tech and in government? I'm genuinely worried about this. >> So, where does that leave our government? You describe yourself as a
[39:43] third-generation Democrat who left the party ages ago. I think you were once vice president of the College Democrats at GW prior to being recruited. Uh what made you leave the Democratic Party, and where do you stand on the political spectrum now? How would you classify your politics now to your new online followers? Do they say you're a conservative, you're a liberal, you're a socialist? What are you? >> I call myself a leftist libertarian. >> Okay. >> You know, the Libertarian Party has this online Q&A. >> Okay. >> And they'll show you on a graph where you sit. And I am solidly on the left
[40:15] and solidly in the anti-government libertarian quadrant. Um I also am a firm believer in the fact that the ideological spectrum is not a straight line from left to right, that it's a circle. And it meets >> used as a pejorative, that the horseshoe, the far right and far left meet. >> Well, I but I think that's a good thing. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I I'm perfectly happy to cooperate with somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene, for example, on an issue like uh Jeffrey Epstein or Israel-Palestine,
[40:45] Gaza, Iran, whatever. Perfectly happy to take support from wherever I can find it. >> Let's talk about a very contentious issue. I recently made a video about that about cuz AOC came out and said I don't trust Marjorie Taylor Greene, then some people on the left attacked her, and she said, well, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene's got a lot of issues. >> her to marry Marjorie Taylor Greene, just work with her on this issue. >> Yeah, but there's a trust issue for some people. Um and there's also an issue of what are the toxic politics surrounding some of these people you have to ally with? >> Yeah. >> Um before I ask this next question, I'm going to forget. You said you're on the left. How many other CIA or ex-CIA
[41:16] people are on the left? I mean, you don't think of the CIA being a left-wing place. >> You don't, but I'll tell you something. On election day, 1992, I voted and I went into the office, and we had our 9:00 morning meeting, and my boss said, "I know we're not supposed to do this, but I'm really curious as to who everybody voted for." And in our branch, it was three for Bush, three for Clinton, and two for Perot. And I remember thinking, "Wow, I'm not the only Well, we called ourselves liberals then.
[41:47] >> Yes. >> I'm not the only liberal. Well, I never had any idea what the politics were of the people that I was around. And and then when I got arrested, the day I got arrested, my wife said to me, "Well, you don't have to hide your politics anymore." >> Well, your politics are interesting, cuz I say I think a lot of people have moved. I think you've shifted as well, as you said, left libertarian. Yes. Um you talk about working with people on different sides of the aisle, circular politics, Marjorie Taylor Greene, AOC, big topic right now. I need to ask you about someone else because I was looking
[42:17] forward to this interview. My team and I did some research, and then I got very upset. >> Uh-oh. >> So, I got I got a bone to pick with you. Okay. You endorsed in Florida the far-right Republican candidate James Fishback who is very anti-Israel, >> Yeah. >> very anti-establishment, claims to be a libertarian. He's also a brazen racist. >> Yeah, I didn't endorse him. >> Okay. >> I and and I'm not using this as a way >> if you're a Republican vote for governor of Florida, consider James Fishback, February 2026." That was you. >> Yeah, that was my assistant. And I tore him a new one for
[42:47] >> This was you, John, live with Ted Rall. >> Oh, no, I know what you're talking about. Oh, yes. And that was a stupid thing to say. I didn't really know anything about him other than I had seen this clip >> I thought you were going to see Aaron defend James Fishback to me, and then we would have had a real falling out. >> this clip where he's yelling about AIPAC, and I said, "Hey, >> of people A lot of people This is the problem with the clips, though. >> Yeah, and then >> You got to be careful with the clips. >> my assistant endorsed him on Twitter, and I had to delete it. And I was like, >> So, just to be clear, you have not told
[43:18] people to vote for a man who says a black man should be lynched, who says Indian people shouldn't eat eat with their hands, they don't have forks. Oh, I could go through the list of >> No, my god, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's crazy. >> Because this is the problem. I have I have I have brown Muslim friends of mine who have said to me, "James Fishback's interesting cuz they like you saw a clip where he's attacking AIPAC." And they say, "Finally, someone's standing up to AIPAC." But you would agree that there are people on this political spectrum, whether it's round or linear, who are not just anti-Israel because they care about Palestinian rights or international, but they're also anti-Semitic. >> Yes. In fact, >> And you wouldn't probably shouldn't ally
[43:49] with those people cuz that's not >> You You have to draw the line. Okay. I I I do a lot of cameos since this thing went crazy. People >> From CIA agent to cameo guy. I love it. >> And the only cameos I've ever turned down, if there've been three, are people asking me to give shout-outs to Nick Fuentes. >> Okay. >> And I I've said no, I'm not doing >> So so far in this interview we've learned that you turned down the opportunity to torture people and to do cameos for Nick Fuentes. >> Yeah. >> Okay, good to hear. Good good decisions both of them. Another controversy that
[44:19] surrounds I wanted to give you a chance just to get this out because it's still a big issue in Democratic circles, which is Russia. >> Yeah. >> We haven't talked about Russia, we're running out of time. Um from 2017 to 2024, correct me if I'm wrong, you worked at a radio talk show at Sputnik News, a Russia state-owned media company. The New Republic, I think in 2018, published a big piece uh saying the CIA spy who became a Russian propagandist. >> Yeah. >> Um put aside Russian propagandist line, do you agree that it is at least concerning for some people that it should be concerning for somebody as a former spy um that a former CIA agent
[44:50] turned whistleblower then ends up working for the Russian government? >> No. >> Okay. >> And I'll tell you why. What should be concerning to people is that the CIA will so ruin a person whose politics they don't like that he can never work again. I did 23 months in a federal prison. I paid my so-called debt to society. >> Yes. >> But then I'm never supposed to work again as long as I live? >> So it was a financial thing? >> Oh, completely. >> But doesn't that But isn't that even worse because that suggests that you'll do anything for anyone who pays you?
[45:20] >> No. >> That's what your critics would say. >> No. What what you didn't quote in that uh terrible New Republic article the New Republic >> you had editorial freedom. >> Oh, complete total editorial freedom. >> People would say that's not possible for Russian state. >> Yeah, it is. >> Okay. >> Yeah. People See, people don't People also say once CIA, always CIA. There's no >> I mean, I do a show for Al Jazeera English, some people say I'm a Qatari stooge. So just to be clear. >> Ridiculous. >> And I'll I'll say English is obviously >> The Russians came to me and offered me a radio show. I turned it down. They came
[45:51] to me again six or eight months later, offered me again. I for the life of me could not find a job. And because I was a convicted felon, I was turned down by Uber, I was turned down by Lyft, by Safeway, by Target. I mean, I literally could not find work. I was turned down to be a baggage handler at the Reagan National Airport. And so, I said to the Russians, "The only The only way I would take this job is if you give me complete freedom to criticize anybody and
[46:21] anything I want, including Vladimir Putin." They said, "Done." I said, "Would you put that in writing in the contract?" >> Putin on air? >> On the day of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I opened my show by saying, "I unreservedly condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine and I call on Russian troops to withdraw immediately." >> What do you make of the Donald Trump relationship with Russia? It's weird. I don't want to relitigate Mueller and all of that stuff. I My position on this has always been put aside all the wealth of information that shows there were financial and business ties between the Trumps and
[46:52] Russian banks and blah blah blah blah blah. We'd have to argue is Donald Trump an asset or that I don't want to get to that. >> Right. >> Just Just as someone who follows Donald Trump, this is a man who criticizes everyone, throws his own children under the bus if need be, gives nicknames to everyone, attacks world attacks allies, whether you're the Canadian Prime Minister, the British Prime Minister. Never. I've yet to find I open challenge people who are watching at home. Find me a place where he attacks Vladimir Putin. >> Yeah, I have to agree >> done it. >> No. >> It's weird. >> It is. It's strange. And I wonder if it's just that
[47:23] >> He's in awe of him? >> He's not Yeah. Yeah. I think >> That's the only best The best explanation for Trump is just that he's a sycophant who's in awe of this autocrat he'd like to be. >> I think he admires autocracy. >> Yes. He loves He loves Xi Jinping. He just came back from China. >> Yeah, with nothing but compliments. >> with China, he's been critical of China, critical of Xi Jinping, critical Putin. >> Yeah, no. Although, listen, I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian and you get a lot of Orthodox who won't criticize the Russians, either. >> Yeah, but Donald Trump doesn't have any religion of any kind. >> No, no, no. That's true. >> me ask you a quick question. We're
[47:54] running out of time on Trump and his own um vulnerabilities. He continues to use his personal cell phone to call everyone he Random reporters can just call him up. Multiple people in DC have Donald Trump's number in their phones. Um that's the first for a United States president. Previous presidents didn't even have cell phones, let alone one that people had the numbers for. One advisor said that once Trump receives a call from an international number he doesn't recognize, he answers it anyway. He just sees the number and thinks this might be a foreign leader I want to talk to. Do you think he's the most
[48:24] compromised president of all time? I'm surely they must be listening into these calls. Any good spy agent >> It's got to be a dozen different countries listening to these calls. >> Absolutely, yes. I know what we used to do at the CIA. >> How is that not a bigger issue? Did Hillary Clinton get slaughtered for a freaking emails? >> Yeah, it's not good. >> He's got a phone that you're saying a dozen different intelligence agencies may be listening into. >> Yeah. Not good. >> Well, good thing is Donald Trump is very discreet, I'm sure in all of his conversations, so there's nothing to hear. Some people say that you were soft on Trump last year because you want a pardon from Trump. What do you say to them?
[48:55] >> Um I probably was soft on Trump. >> Yeah, I would love to have a >> Because of what? >> I I would love to have a pardon. I've applied for a pardon. >> have. >> I've >> You tried to hire in the first administration Rudy Giuliani, is that right? >> Oh, no, no, no. I hired a lobbyist named Karen Giorno. Rudy Giuliani, several people suggested that I speak to Rudy Giuliani. And so, I called one of his top aids and said I'd like to talk to him about a pardon. They said, "Oh, we're going to be in Washington. Let's meet on Tuesday at 12:00 at the
[49:26] Trump Hotel." I said, "Great." I went with my attorney. We sat down with Giuliani and the two or three other people. And and Giuliani says, "You a baseball fan?" I said, "Yes, sir. Pittsburgh Pirates are my team. They're terrible." And "How do you like the Mets?" Okay, the Mets are great. "You a football fan?" Yeah. I said I am, but there's this issue of the pardon. And Giuliani says, "Anybody know where the pisser is?" And he stands up and walks away. And I said, "What just happened?" And his aide says, "Never talk to Rudy
[49:57] about a pardon. You talk to me about a pardon and I talk to Rudy." >> Did they ask for money? >> "Rudy's going to want $2 million." >> $2 million? >> And I laughed. I said, "I don't have $2 million. I'll never have $2 million. Even if I did, why would I spend $2 million to recover a $700,000 pen?" >> When you say you'll never have $2 million, CAA may have different views on that, John. >> Um my fingers are crossed. >> of course, says he has no recollection of that meeting. >> Yeah, and then when the New York Times called me to say Giuliani says he has no recollection of the meeting, I said, "Giuliani forgot that we took a picture
[50:27] together at that meeting." >> Ooh. >> And so I sent it to them, and then they wrote in in the follow-up >> Don't deny meetings with a CIA spy. They know what they're doing. [clears throat] >> They wrote uh in the in the follow-up that uh the New York Times has seen documentary evidence that the meeting took place. >> Let me ask you this quick thing before we run out of time. We mentioned the phone call, Donald Trump, whether you were soft or not or not. Let me just ask you bluntly right now, then. So, you said you're you're honestly saying that you think it's not great that he's using his private phone call as a form of spy, you would say a lot of agencies are listening in. There are many people who
[50:58] say to me, I I don't agree with this, but I want to get your view. Many people say to me, "The reason Trump's doing all this stuff is because the Israelis have stuff on him. They have dirt on him. They have leverage on him. Look at the Epstein files." What is your view? >> You know, I don't think that that's the case. I think that he is I think he is stubborn enough and arrogant enough that if they were to threaten him with holding something over his head, he would lash out at them. I I don't think that's it at all. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I also think it's very hard to shame a shameless man. Like we're going to put out an embarrassing video. What does
[51:28] Trump care? His base will say it's a deep fake. Okay. >> Exactly. >> Before we finish, last question. Uh 2028. We just talked about your politics. Who would you like to see running for president in 2028? >> You know, I've looked at everybody, and I think that the person that I'm probably closest to ideologically is Ro Khanna. >> Okay. Congressman from California, regular guest on the show. Um >> Yep. >> Do you think he fits the leftist libertarian mold? >> Uh in in most respects. You know,
[52:00] I uh >> Make the case for why Khanna. >> Because I think that he is the truest to his days convictions. Um I There are so many other Democrats who are more prominent than Ro Khanna, who just are too slick, too closely tied to the party structure. They're neoliberal war lovers, you know, they're just kind of status quo Washington, D.C. people. Even if they're not in Washington, D.C. Uh people like Gavin Newsom, for example.
[52:32] Uh people like um Oh my gosh, there's so many. Where do you even begin? I went on Krystal Ball and Kyle Kulinski the other day and they have 46 Democrats >> It's going to be It's going to be a big race. >> Yeah. It's going to be a >> have multiple kiddie table debates. >> to agree. >> I want to give you a chance at the end to plug the book. You've got a new book coming out, Remains of the Day, a definitive guide to historic cemeteries of Washington, D.C. >> Yeah. >> Not a book about spy craft. >> No, my first seven books were about the CIA. And when COVID hit, I decided to do something completely different. And so, I thought, well, I'll look at and see what what cemetery books have been
[53:03] written about Washington. And I realized no books had ever been written about Washington, D.C. cemeteries. So, I wrote the book. And then my publisher Simon & Schuster, they liked it so much, they commissioned several more. I have another one for the end of the year called Whispers in the Dirt, the a definitive guide to the mafia graves of New York City. >> Oh, wow. Actually, I lied. I do have one more question. I just thought of one that I want to hear. You said at the beginning of this interview that you wanted to serve your country, you wanted to travel. >> Yes. >> You enjoyed the State Department, you enjoyed the CIA. Today, one of your new
[53:35] 18 to 30 followers comes to you and says, "John, I've been listening to you. I I the truth. I also do care about my country, I'm patriotic. I want to serve the United States of America. Should I join the CIA? And if not, what should I do? >> People ask me that literally every single day. And my response is it's difficult, actually. Um I'm on record as calling for the dismantling of the CIA. It's redundant. Other organizations in government do exactly the same thing. But, I'm a realist. I know the CIA is not going away. It's never going to be dismantled.
[54:07] And so, if you want to really change the CIA, you have to do it from inside. Run for Congress. Get onto the oversight committees. Or join the CIA. And when you rise up through the ranks and you find yourself in a position of authority, you use you use that authority to do the right thing. >> Even if you're risking going to prison as you did. >> Worth it. I would do it again tomorrow. >> Wow. John Kiriakou, thank you for your time. Appreciate you coming on Mediate the Fun. >> Thanks for the invitation. >> Did you like this video? Don't forget to
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