[06:22] friends. I don't think I agree with everybody or on every issue with anybody in the world. So why would that be a prerequisite? You know, we can respect each other and respect differences in opinion and you know, live happily ever after. It's just become obvious to me the the older that I get. >> It's powerful. I want to do the hero's journey with you. When we
[06:52] start from the beginning, interviewing you is is nerve-racking. It's It's like going on a date with someone who you're like, "Have you been on many dates recently?" Well, yeah, I went out with Brad Pitt and then it was like Tom Cruise and then it's like, "Yeah, I've been interviewed by Theo Von, by Joe Rogan, by Tucker Carlson." That's That's scary. >> May I actually interrupt you on that point? >> This little vignette is apropos of of this lead-in. So I got divorced in 2018. I waited a couple of years, decided to
[07:23] go on the apps. So I figured I'm going to go to Bumble cuz Bumble is supposed to be the the ladies' app. >> app, yeah. >> The gentleman's app because the woman chooses who she wants to talk to. Okay. I go. I see this absolutely stunning woman. I swipe right. She swipes right. I said, "Hey, I matched." So we start texting back and forth. And we agree to meet for a glass of wine. So, we meet in person. I said, "My God, she's even more beautiful than in her pictures." But, I wanted to be transparent. So, I
[07:53] said, "Listen, before this goes anywhere, you should know something about me. And if you don't like it, you can walk, and no hard feelings at all." She says, "No, I know who you are, Mr. Kyriacou." I had never told her my last name. So, I said, "Oh, okay. So, you're okay?" And she said, "Yeah, you should know something about me." I said, "Great." She says, "I'm the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights." And I said, "Hey, then we're a match. Great, right?" >> Yeah. >> So, I had such a good time. I said,
[08:25] "Please go out with me Saturday night. We'll have dinner." Great. We went out, had a great time. And I said, "Let's do a little day trip next weekend." I've always wanted to go to Shepherdstown, West Virginia. It's about an hour and 15 minutes away. Civil War town, art galleries, boutiques. She says, "Great." I said, "Great. I'll pick you up 10:00 Saturday morning." I go to her house. I pick her up. She gets in my car. I said, "Good morning." She says, "Good morning." I was like, "Oh, doggone it." I said, "What's wrong?" "Nothing."
[08:57] "Nothing." I said, "Come on, let's not play these games. Obviously, clearly, something's wrong. What is it?" She says, "I have doubts about your left-wing credentials." I said, "Excuse me? I went to prison for my left-wing credentials. What's your problem?" She said, "I saw a YouTube video in which you quoted Ronald Reagan." And I said, "Yeah. I know what the quote is. I said, 'Ronald Reagan was right when he said that government is the
[09:28] problem. It's not the solution to the problem.' He's right." She says, "I just need to process this." I said, "Fine." We go to Shepherdstown, had a terrible time. It's about 3:00 in the afternoon, it starts to rain very hard. I said, "Let's go back to DC." We get back in my car. I don't like sitting on my cell phone in the car, so I take my phone out, I put it in the cup holder next to me. Soon as I start driving, I get a text message. It goes So, I look down and I said, "Oh, no."
[10:00] It's from Tucker Carlson. >> [laughter] >> And it says, "Hey, buddy, haven't heard from you in a while. Are you free for a beer this weekend?" And I try to discreetly look at her and I see she's looking right at the phone. Oh, no. And she says, "Do you know Tucker Carlson?" And I said, "Yes, and he's a lovely man." And she says, "Take me home right now and don't ever call me again." And so I did.
[10:31] And it just made me realize even more clearly that I'm right. >> Yes. >> We don't have to agree on everything to respect one another and to respect one another's points of view. >> You know, when we were young, there was left liberal and right liberal. At the end, we all believed in freedom of speech, >> freedom of religion, free economy. >> And our differences on foreign policy ended at the shore, we used to say. >> And it was but that's now I feel like the left is illiberal and the right is
[11:02] illiberal. We've lost a belief in the founding principles of our republic on both the left and the right. >> And that's why I find myself in Excuse me, in agreement so often with with people who call themselves MAGA Republicans. Because and I've said this many times, I don't believe that the ideological spectrum is a straight line from left to right. I believe that it's a circle and it meets at a certain point and we should embrace that meeting. We should embrace the ability to cooperate and
[11:33] work with each other and to respect each other and each other's positions. >> Yes, I think sincere people on the left and the right are ordered to the common good. We disagree prudentially, but we we're sincere people are striving for the same things. But there are insincere people and grifters also across the ideological spectrum. >> Absolutely. 100% and we see it every day in the in the papers. Absolutely true. >> So with that, I want to go back to the beginning. So because I'm nervous to interview you is
[12:03] you've been interviewed by the best people, you've been asked the best questions. You're my children's and everyone under 20's hero. So I don't want to mess this up. So I went to Jason Rocket, our friend, who's a world-class researcher who's worked on the most important biographies of the 20th century. Henry Kissinger's go-to guy. >> Henry Kissinger's guy. So I said, "What should I ask John?" He said, "Oh, that's simple. No one's asked him. No one I've never seen it. Ask him about his parents." And then I saw you on Theo Von this week. >> Right. >> Who I love that man's heart. He's such a
[12:34] beautiful human being. >> Yeah, really genuine genuine person. >> Really, yeah, something special. To me, the what gives me hope for America is that America loves Theo Von. >> Mhm. >> And Tim Dillon and you. It's like, you know what I mean? And not a lot in common between you, Theo Von, and Tim Dillon. But the fact that America, especially Gen Z, loves you guys, I'm like, okay, there's hope for this country. And but you were talking about Tulsi Gabbard. >> Mhm. >> I've known Tulsi since she was 12. Her father and mother were good friends of mine. They're the most beautiful people
[13:04] I've ever met in my life. They they love each other so much. Um in the in the in the '90s, her father really led the campaign to protect traditional marriage in Hawaii and he was really hated and I was chairman of the college Republicans at the time, worked closely with him. And I watched how and I was in Hawaii in the army, but I was from Chicago. So I was kind of a fiery young man. Here's a Samoan man, her father. And the way he responded to hatred was always with joy, with kindness, with a smile. I've never saw him angry. I never saw him lose his temper.
[13:35] And the way that those two are both, her mom and her dad, are like these strong individuals, but they're a perfect couple. They don't dominate each other. They're And they're both warm. And I say to people, "If you want to understand Tulsi Gabbard, you cannot. She will never make sense to you until you meet her parents." And so I had Jason's text, "I'm watching you talk about Tulsi." And I realized Jason was right. That's the question. The question is, "Where did John Kiriakou come from? This guy that's like Tulsi. They don't make sense in this world."
[14:06] So, that's the question. We want to know about your mom and your dad. >> Well, I appreciate that. Um I was really, really fortunate growing up. My parents were deeply in love with each other. And they came from completely I shouldn't say completely different backgrounds. They came from different backgrounds. First of all, all four of my grandparents came from the island of Rhodes in Greece. My dad's parents came in 1931. My mom's parents in 1934. And they were all farmers in Greece.
[14:37] Um but my dad's parents stressed education because they didn't have an education. And it was just my dad and his sister. Mom My mom's side, my mom had eight brothers and sisters. And education was never important on my mom's side of the family. So, my dad got a PhD in um in education. And my mom ended up getting a master's degree in in education. She went to college when I was when I started fifth grade,
[15:08] she started college. And then she finished grad school when I finished grad school. So, um education was everything. They were both in elementary ed. My mom was a third grade teacher, my dad was an elementary school principal for 44 years. And they were deeply in love with each other. To the point where my brother and sister and I would be like, "Stop you guys. Get a room or something, you know?" And I I grew up
[15:38] thinking that everybody's family was like that. >> Mhm. >> And it wasn't. They weren't. I I was just very, very fortunate. When I was 9 years old, I told my parents that I wanted to be a spy when I grew up. And they thought it was cute, and they bought me walkie-talkies for Christmas, and disappearing ink, and stuff like that. My brother and I would walk around the neighborhood like spying on the neighbors. >> [laughter] >> We really did. But then when I was 16, I told my dad, I still remember the conversation. We were driving on Old
[16:09] Plank Road, past Fraser's Pond, and I said, "Dad, I want to be a spy in the Middle East when I when I finish college." And he said, "Still with the spy thing? Can't you like be a dentist or something?" And I said, "No, I really want to be a spy." And he said, "Why the Middle East?" And I said, "I don't know. It's just fascinating to me." And so, I only applied to George Washington University because they had a degree uh program in Middle Eastern studies,
[16:40] and that's all I cared about. It's all I wanted to study. And they didn't like it, but they supported it because they knew that that's what I wanted to do, that it would make me happy. >> Why don't you think they liked it? >> They were afraid that something would happen to me. >> And they had no doubt if you They weren't like, "Okay, this is just a phase." They knew that you had your eye set on it and you were probably going to >> And then when I joined the CIA, and they were happy and proud, and I said, "You can't tell anybody." My dad like stands up in church and announces >> [laughter]
[17:10] >> And I said to him, I said, "Dad, you're going to get me killed. I'm undercover, and you're just announcing to the church and breaking my cover. He's like, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was so proud. I'm sorry." I said, "Dad, you got to stop doing that." And he did. He stopped. But, um But, I had only been on the job, I don't know, 8 months. I've mentioned this in a couple of podcasts. I When I was hired into the CIA, I was I was put on the Iraq desk. And, um
[17:41] I became Saddam Hussein's classified, uh, biographer for the intelligence community. I was the only one covering leadership analysis on the Iraqi leadership. And so, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, I got into the office very early one morning, 6:00. Not one morning, that morning, August 2nd, 1990. And my boss said, um "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to the White House." I had never been to the White House, except as a tourist. And so, we got in a car, went to the
[18:11] White House. There's a Marine there waiting for us. He escorts us into the Oval Office. I'm 25 years old. It's the president, the vice president, the national security advisor, and the CIA director, and then my boss and me. And you know, you don't speak until you're spoken to, and you don't sit until the president tells you to sit. So, there's two nice like wingback chairs for the president and the vice president, two like less comfortable dining room kind of chairs for the CIA director and the
[18:43] national security advisor, and then the couch where my boss and I sat down. And the president says, "Gentlemen, sit. Sit." So, we sit down. And then he says, "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at me. And I'm looking at him like I was speechless. And then it took me a second. I said, "Oh, well, uh Mr. President, as you know, Iraqi troops crossed the border at 0200 this morning. The royal family has fled to Saudi Arabia, and blah blah blah blah blah.
[19:15] And then that night my parents called me. And they said, "Busy day for you today, huh?" And I said, "Yeah, it was a busy day." "Well, what was it like? What did you do?" And I said, "Well, I I just I sat at my desk and I wrote as much as I could write." >> You couldn't tell them. >> Uh-uh. >> Cuz dad had a big mouth. >> Dad had a big mouth. >> He's proud. >> He's going to call everybody at church. >> Next week on Sunday, everybody in announcements and prayers at >> Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But they were proud of me and and supportive of me. And you know, we
[26:03] bleeding from the ears. And he said he had had enough, and he just wanted to go home. And I said, "How's your family? You never say how's your wife. That's very rude." >> Okay. >> You say, "How's your family? And what does your family say about it?" And he said, "Alas," he said, "I haven't seen my family in 5 years. I have a son that I've never met. He's 5 years old. I have a 9-year-old daughter, and I just want to go home." So I said, "Let me take you to lunch. Let's talk about this more." So we go to lunch.
[26:33] And we're talking and talking and talking. And then the next day we meet again. And finally I said to him, "Ya Muhammad, I haven't been completely honest with you. I'm actually not Lebanese." And he said, "Okay." And I said, "I'm actually American." "Okay." I said, are you all right with that? And he said, yeah, you have a little bit of an accent. I couldn't quite put my finger on. I said, well, there's more to it. And I
[27:04] don't want to frighten you, but I'm actually a CIA officer. And he says, okay. He said, what do you want from me? And I told him very specifically what I wanted from him. And he said, and what will you do for me? And I said, anything your heart desires. I said, do you want to go home to see your family? I'll send you home with a bag of money that'll weigh you down. And you can start a whole new life.
[27:35] And put all of this behind you. You don't want to live here. You want to be with your wife and your children. And start something new and build something for your children. And he accepted it. And he gave me everything I wanted. And I took him to the airport. And I said, Muhammad, before you leave, I want to ask you, why did you agree to give me what I asked for? You didn't run screaming from the room when I told him who I was. And he said, I've been here for 5 years.
[28:08] And you're the first person who ever asked me about my family. And you know, it it crystallized something in my mind. It's that it's all about the relationship. Success is all about the relationship. Didn't cost me anything to ask him about his family. Just like it wouldn't cost, you know, a partner at Deloitte, where I used to work after I left the agency, to ask the person in charge of the big audit contract, how'd your kid do in the in the Little League game? How's your
[28:39] husband doing after his gallbladder surgery? Hey, did you have a happy birthday party last week? It doesn't cost anything to take interest in somebody's life and to treat them with respect and kindness. Can you imagine going up to to this guy in the coffee shop and saying, "You better give me what I want or I'm going to make your life miserable." Come on. That's no recipe for success. >> So, it's an angry young man. >> Yeah. You just have to show people respect. It really is that simple.
[29:11] >> You know, when I my first job out of college was I did radio sales and my mentor sat me down and he gave me Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, shake them in the hands, look them in the eye, ask them about their family. So, I would think at CIA, is that not taught? >> No. And it should be the first thing that's taught. And it's not. It's ignored. You know, another thing too, is they never tell you in training, "You don't want to be the heavy." You know, we've been doing this for 75 years. We've learned that it's not good
[29:42] to be the heavy. They never train you in that way. They They train you in something called the asset acquisition cycle, spot, assess, develop, recruit. You go into the the the pretend diplomatic cocktail party and you go up to a guy, "Hi, how are you? I'm John from the American Embassy. Where are you from?" "Oh, I'm from the Polish Embassy." Okay, I'm not interested in you because Poland's in NATO, it's in the European Union. We don't spy on Poland. We don't need to. So, nice meeting you and I'm going to go
[30:14] on to the next guy. And the next guy is from, you know, Iran. Okay, I'm going to be interested in this guy. Or I'm going to be interested in the guy in the um you know, the let's say, I'll make something up, Syrian Defense Ministry or the Russian Foreign Ministry or whatever, but they don't teach you be nice, be friendly, cultivate the relationship. You either have that in you or you don't. Now, sometimes you there are guys that need to use a heavy hand. Those are the guys
[30:44] in what's euphemistically called the special activities division. Uh but they're not they're not going to diplomatic cocktail parties to find their targets. They get their targets from the White House kill list meeting on Tuesday mornings. They're not doing what I was doing. But I never ever ever found that being the heavy was the way to go. Never. >> Which foreign intelligence service is the best at cultivating friendships and relationships? >> Friendships and relationships?
[31:15] >> You know, that that I would think the Iranians are probably pretty good at it. >> The Iranians are terrible at it. >> Really? >> Absolutely terrible. >> is so >> They are absolutely >> They can't. >> terrible. No. >> Who would Who would you say that would be >> on who the target is. The Israelis are very very good at developing people who would be their natural supporters anyway. Um we're good at it. >> Okay. >> The Brits are good at it. Um >> Russians no good?
[31:45] >> The Russians are better off at using their own people as sleeper agents. Or throwing money at people who have very significant um problems. If they identify you as somebody who's got a gambling addiction or an alcohol problem or a drug problem. Um or somebody who's been passed over for promotion too many times. Sure, they'll they'll target you, but that relationship is going to be strictly based on on money. Um these other services, the Cubans. The
[32:17] Cubans don't have money to pay sources. They do it all out of a sense of uh ideology and patriotism. >> Did you ever feel Can you feel it when you're being recruited? When someone's trying to develop you, did you feel that? Did you understand that? Did anyone try to recruit you and you didn't even know until later? >> No. When I was in the CIA application process, I was invited to a to a party. I was in grad school. And my grad school advisor had recruited
[32:47] me into the CIA, but I still had to go through the security process. So, I'm in that process and I'm invited to a dinner party. And the Hungarian, this is during communism, the Hungarian third secretary for education affairs. It's just a made-up cover job. Um even I knew that at 23. >> There's no travel budget for that guy if he even exists. >> This guy was on me like white on rice. He just would not leave me alone. And
[33:19] I got to thinking about it. Like, I wonder if this guy's an intelligence officer. And so, since I was already in the application process, I called the recruiter and I said, "I had this odd encounter a couple of nights ago." And I gave him the the guy the guy gave him his business card. So, I said, "This is his name. This is his position. This is his his telephone number." And then, once I got hired by the agency, I was talking to the security officer that cleared me and he said, "You know, that was an intelligence officer."
[33:49] He was young and inexperienced and a little too overeager, but you did the right thing reporting it. And the second time it happened, I was a senior officer. And um I was in Islamabad and my chief says, um "I want you to meet with the French head of counterterrorism here." And I said, "Okay." So, I called the guy. And uh I said, "Let's get together for lunch." He says, "Okay, let's meet on the corner of this street and that street." And I'm like, "What?"
[34:20] That's a residential area. Now, maybe there's a little cafe that I don't know about. So, I said, "Okay." So, I'm standing on this corner waiting for the guy. And it's a residential area. There's no cafe or anything. And he screeches around the corner, leans over, opens the door, and says, "Jump in." And I said, "You set me up for a car pickup?" A car pickup is when you're meeting with a sensitive source, you pull around a corner as quickly as
[34:50] you can so that in case you're being followed, the guy can jump in your car without the chase car seeing that you've picked somebody up, and then you kind of cut through alleys and stuff. And I said, "I am not your asset." So, I wouldn't get in the car. And I said, "I'll meet you at the Pearl Hotel. We're going to have coffee in the coffee shop. I'm not doing a car pickup meeting with you. How dare you try to recruit me?" And then there was one other time I've talked about on
[35:21] on podcast, my very first briefing as a CIA officer. I'd been on the job 6 weeks. And my boss says to me, "Listen, today you're going to do your very first liaison briefing. This is a joint briefing of Israeli Mossad and Shin Bet." And it was like eight of us, eight analysts with these two Israeli intelligence officers. He said, "We don't allow the Israelis into the building. We used to, but every time they'd come,
[35:52] they would bring gifts, and the gifts are completely packed with listening devices and batteries. Like, we're not going to x-ray them. And then we had to keep telling them, "Guys, you can't keep coming here and trying to bug our conference rooms every time you come." So, finally the director said, "Israelis are not permitted in the building anymore." So, we rented a a space, a safe house, and we would meet with the Israelis in the safe house. So, this is my very first briefing, and they told me you're going to go last since you're the most junior. So, the
[36:24] the chief analyst starts first, then the Iraq political, then the Iraq military, then the Iraq economic, then the Iraq oil, and then they finally came to me. So, this woman from Mossad, man from Shin Bet, and they're writing down every word. Now, I was overt at the time. So, I used my true name, which was what I was supposed to do. And I said, "I'm John Kiriakou, and I'm going to brief you today on Saddam Hussein's psychological state."
[36:54] And the Shin Bet guy has his glasses down like this, and he says, "Spell your name?" So, I spell it, and he goes, "You are Jewish?" And I said, "I am not recruitable. Don't even think about trying to recruit me." I was furious. I could barely get through the briefing. So, I go back to the office, and my boss said, "How did it go?" I said, "This SOB tried to recruit me right in front of everybody else."
[37:26] And he laughed, and he said, "The Israelis do that to every one of us. Every single one of us. Because they figure if they pitch a thousand guys, one's going to say yes eventually." >> Glengarry Glen Ross, always be closing. >> Mhm. >> Right? And even coffee's for closers. >> That's right. >> That's really, you know, they they seem from the outside so ham-fisted and aggressive that it wouldn't work, but it seems to be working just fine. >> Look at Jonathan Pollard. >> They're running the table on us. >> They are. >> It was announced yesterday, I guess, that they've been elevated to the highest risk for spying on us.
[37:58] >> Yes. Well, and and they had been at the highest previously. One of the very first briefings you get when you join the CIA is a counterintelligence briefing by the uh the director of security. Very first day at the CIA. So, you're in the bubble, which is the auditorium, and the first person out is the director of the CIA. Welcome to the CIA. We're so happy to have you. And then HR comes out and says this is the health insurance and this is the life insurance, whatever. Chief of security comes out and gives
[38:29] you some basic ground rules. Don't ever go to the steakhouse down the street. Ever. Because the KGB thinks we all eat there and so the KGB is at every table waiting for a CIA person to walk in and start talking about work. Right? So I've never been there. I've been in Washington 44 years. I've never been to that steakhouse. It's all KGB. >> What steakhouse is this again? >> It It's changed names a couple times. It's TJ something now. One of the >> I'm going. I'm bringing my friends and we're going to pretend to be the CIA and
[39:00] we're going to spill secrets. >> TJ Gilbert's. >> As loud as we can. >> It's called TJ Gilbert's. >> All right. >> So um another thing that he said was um Let's see. It was TJ Gilbert's. Oh, he said uh the highest tier for counterintelligence is critical threat for counterintelligence. These are the countries that spy on us the most aggressively. At the time it was the Soviet Union, now
[39:30] Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Israel. With France just one little step below. Um They're so incredibly aggressive. He said, "For example, at the Israeli embassy in Washington, there are two declared intelligence officers. One Mossad, one Shin Bet. I met them 6 weeks later." He said, "But the FBI has been able to
[40:01] identify 187 and 87 undeclared Israeli intelligence officers spread all across America, mostly in American defense contractors stealing our defense secrets." Why? We give the Israelis 98% of what we have. They want that last 2%. >> 98%? >> Well, and now in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2027, which passed the House a couple of days ago, we're integrating
[40:31] our military technologies. So, Israelis will be sitting next to us at the Pentagon. >> How can this happen the same week that we elevate them to the greatest risk? >> Yeah. You tell You tell me. Exactly. Well, let me add Let me add one other thing. Uh Jonathan Pollard, famous traitor, uh was was spying He was a naval intelligence officer. Uh he was spying for the Israelis. Jewish-American giving the Israelis uh information on
[41:02] Soviet military movements. No big deal, right? I mean, in the greater scheme of things. Until you realize that the Israelis were then giving that same top-secret information to the KGB in exchange for plane loads of Russian Jews to allow them to emigrate to Israel. So, it caused what the Pentagon what Secretary of Defense uh um Caspar Weinberger at the time called grave um grave damage to the national
[41:35] security. It's the highest level of damage. So, Pollard does every single day of his 30-year sentence for espionage. Every single day he didn't get one single day off for a good behavior or halfway house or anything. Sheldon Adelson, now the late Sheldon Adelson, sends his private jet to pick up Pollard at prison, fly him to Tel Aviv.
[42:05] When he gets off the plane, he's met Excuse me. He's met by Benjamin Netanyahu. Pollard gets off the plane and kisses the ground. He's bestowed with Israeli citizenship. And in a speech at the airport urges American Jews to take up arms against the United States. And then what happens? He's welcomed into the American Embassy by Ambassador Huckabee for a meeting like some kind of conquering hero. Where are our priorities here?
[42:36] Either the Israelis are a counterintelligence threat or they're not. Well, they've proven that they are. So, are we serving the American people or are we serving Israeli national interests, national security interests? >> Well, according to >> do both. >> According to Joe Kent who seemed to be in a pretty good position >> Mhm. >> to have visibility on all this. I'm really eager to hear what Tulsi Gabbard has to say in the coming months. >> Mhm. >> Um it seems to be we're serving the interests of Israel.
[43:06] >> Israeli Prime Ministers come to the United States all the time. Sometimes multiple times a year. >> I've met Netanyahu in my life like 10 times being in the conservative movement. Sat next to him at breakfasts and lunches. He's worked very hard at cultivating his relationships here in the United States. >> Over the course of a lifetime. >> Yeah, since the '90s. I probably first met him in the late '90s at a Christian Coalition dinner. I got to sit at the same table. >> Uh I'm going to blow my own horn for a second. >> Okay. >> When I was going through the application process for the CIA, this was 19 80 eight or nine.
[43:37] Uh 89. I had to go in for interviews. And I'm at the very end of the process. So, they give me a file folder about that thick and it's full of newspaper clippings. Every one of them is about Benjamin Netanyahu. He was the Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations at the time. And they said, "Take 2 hours, review all of these articles, and then write a one-page um psychological analysis of Benjamin Netanyahu."
[44:07] So, I did. And I said that my conclusion was that he would probably become Prime Minister of Israel one day. And and he did. >> was this? >> 1989. He was ambassador to the UN, then he became ambassador to the US, then he was like defense minister, then foreign minister, and then he became Prime Minister. Now, he's the longest-serving Prime Minister in Israeli history. But um W- Why was I telling you that? Oh,
[44:38] Netanyahu >> him. And and was that by sheer force of his will and ambition? >> Absolutely, yes. He's brilliant. He's dangerous, but he's brilliant and a real political player. He just runs rings around every other Israeli uh political figure. So, from the 1980s, when Ronald Reagan was was president, every Israeli Prime Minister, but even before Netanyahu, when they would come to the White House, they would say, "Please bomb Iran.
[45:08] Please bomb Iran. Please bomb Iran." And every single president said, "I'm not going to bomb Iran." Until this one. But even Barack Obama said a couple of weeks ago that Netanyahu asked him to bomb Iran. And he said, "We're not going to bomb Iran for you." And he said, "If you don't bomb Iran, we're going to use nuclear weapons." And Obama said, "Go ahead. Go ahead. Do it. Use nuclear weapons." And he backed off because it was a
[45:38] bluff. >> Yeah. >> But he made the same bluff with Donald Trump, and Trump believed it. >> Mhm. Yeah, I don't know if it's wishful thinking or not, but I do feel that everything Trump is doing is going against everything he said he would never do and would be really stupid. And so, I think that there must be something that he thinks is for the greater good for him to do something that is so obviously really stupid. >> I think that's right. I think Trump really believed that he was doing the right thing. I think that he believed that over the long term he would be saving lives and he would be supporting
[46:09] long-term American foreign policy goals by doing this. And I think now he realizes he's been duped. >> I think so, too. There seems to be a a sudden a sudden shift. I want to talk about the psychology of Netanyahu. You seem to be that's how you were recruited. And and and I want to go back to how you were you were recruited still when you were in grad school. >> Yeah, I was in grad school. >> Which means they identified your professor as a recruiter, they identified you as a likely recruit. >> Mhm. >> Was that Hungary or Russia through Hungary? Was Hungary that sophisticated? >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah, the Hungarians, the Romanians, the Bulgarians, they were very aggressive.
[46:41] >> That's pretty good that they identified him, identified you as a likely recruit, and thought to recruit you while you were still in the process. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But I want to go back to that. >> I want to go back to Netanyahu because understanding the psychology of leadership is they saw a gift your professor saw you had that gift. >> was the name of the class. >> The psychology of leadership. >> Netanyahu reminds me of Michael Corleone. He lost his brother. >> Mhm. >> He's really obsessed. And I really do understand the obsession of that generation, especially of Jews, to for
[47:12] their security. So, he seems like someone who wanted nothing but to keep his family safe. >> Mhm. >> And he's doing nothing but destroying his family. >> Plus, he had he has what appears to be a very long-term view of these issues. But I think the truth is that while he may have a long-term goal his short-term actions are wrecking the region, the whole region, to the
[47:43] point where it's it's untenable over the long term. >> Is he Does he buy into this Messianic religious >> Absolutely. >> just weaponizing it for his purposes. >> Absolutely. They laugh at American evangelicals. They laugh at them. >> They've tricked them, duped them into blindly supporting Israel. You know, I I have a friend who's an evangelical, a close friend, and he's an anti-Netanyahu evangelical. And he says, "You know, the problem with these evangelicals, well, let me let's back
[48:14] up. Evangelicals believe that Jesus can't come back until all the Jews have moved to Israel, have returned to Israel, right? And and he said, "Here's what the disconnect is. Evangelicals think that they can force the hand of God. That their actions, oh, if we charter enough planes and put enough Jews on them, Jesus will come back. And then Jesus is going to come back when Jesus is ready to come back. Not cuz you guys have chartered all the planes. Right? It's ridiculous. >> It's ridiculous.
[48:45] >> And and the Israelis know that these fools have a lot of money and they're willing to do whatever the Israeli government wants them to do. And so they take advantage of it. You and I have had conversations in the past that I think bear repeating here. Where we can't understand why so many people who proudly describe themselves as Christians actively work against the Middle East's Christians.
[49:15] We're talking about these the original Christians. >> The descendants of the Jews that accepted Jesus. The descendants of the people who were in the upper room. >> Exactly. What about them? I'm still angry about the bombing of St. Porphyrios' Church in Gaza. >> October 18th. >> Mhm. I'm still angry about that. The oldest continuously operating church in the world. And 24 women and children took refuge there, and the Israelis blew it up. >> You know what else they blew up? We sent in a a film crew into Tehran to document the oldest Jewish extant Jewish
[49:46] community in the world. The oldest continuous synagogue in the world. Uh the United States and Israel flattened a synagogue 11 days after we shot our documentary about 2 months ago. It's gone. Wiped from the face of the earth today today today um a Palestinian child was shot in the West Bank, a baby, an infant. Yesterday Taybeh was set on fire, the only 100% Christian village in the West Bank. And in the past week, four Palestinian students, female students, were kidnapped by the IDF, one a Christian, one an American citizen, one on the
[50:17] national football team. And the world is >> silent. How about uh Shireen Abu Akleh? Shireen Abu Akleh, the most important, most highly respected journalist at Al Jazeera. An American citizen. A Greek Orthodox Christian. She's in the West Bank with a bulletproof vest that says press and a Kevlar helmet that says press. She's standing with a cameraman behind a tree cuz she doesn't want to get in the way of anybody. And as soon as she steps out from behind the tree, an Israeli sniper shoots her
[50:49] in the face and kills her instantly. As if that wasn't bad enough, the IDF goes into the hospital where her body is being carried out in a coffin. They beat the pallbearers to the point where they drop the coffin and then they shoot rubber bullets and smoke grenades into the Greek Orthodox church while her funeral service is taking place. And not a single word from the American government. Not a word. >> evangelical Christian leaders or Catholic leaders.
[51:20] >> I want to know where is Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham and Mike Huckabee when these things happen. >> No, and people will say, you know, in in December when Gaza made it to the front pages for about an hour and a half, um all of a sudden on cue all the evangelical Christian human rights groups, all Catholic leaders, even uh Catholic Bishop Robert Barron, "What about Nigeria? What about Nigeria?" To this day Bishop Barron has never mentioned Gaza or the West Bank or Lebanon. "What about Nigeria?" That lasted for about a week. As if So they'll say, well, you what about
[51:51] what you know, what about Boko Haram? My organization guards churches in Nigeria and the only synagogue. We provide security for this. So I understand we lost an employee last year to Islamist extremism in in Nigeria. I'm not naive to this, but we lost two employees in Gaza that were killed when our baby formula warehouse was bombed. But they'll say, well, you know, what about Boko Haram? Like you want to compare a nation state to a No, no, what other nation state behaves the way the state does to its minorities? >> None that I can think of. You know, I I used to I I used to teach
[52:22] Don't judge me. I used to teach at Liberty University. The the largest evangelical university in the world. They called me right after I blew the whistle on the torture program. It was It was Jerry Falwell Jr. that called me. Even my wife said to me one time, we got a Christmas card from Jerry Falwell Jr. And she says, do you know Jerry Falwell Jr.? And I said, yeah. She said, how? I said, we send jokes to each other every once in a while on email. Anyway, [clears throat] so
[52:52] they offered me this job speaking in lecturing at the Jesse Helms School of Government. And I said, are you sure you want me? We probably disagree on 99% of the issues. And Jerry says, we want you because torture is not Christian. And I said, you know what? I'll take the job. And I loved every second that I was down there. We disagreed on a lot of stuff, but I loved it. So we had this debate a lot
[53:25] about the role of evangelical Christians in the Middle East. And I could never understand why in the world they wouldn't stand up for the original Christians. They didn't even want to talk about it. And it just kind of fell by the wayside. And here we are all these years later and they're still not talking about it. They're still not interested. >> You know, I had a relationship with him because he our first my first film Bella he got way behind. He leaned into it so much. Was a big part of our success. Was
[53:57] very kind. I know he got caught in a kind of an embarrassing scandal. >> Yeah. >> But he seemed like a kind and this is my frustration with a lot of my Christian Zionist friends. They're better than me. They're kind. They're thoughtful. They're polite. They wake up every morning and pray. But then when you talk about this issue, it's just like And then you show them quotes from Ben Gvir. You show them attacks on by settlers on West Bank Christians. >> And it's just they cannot ex- they cannot see it. Now is am I naive to think that the state of
[54:27] Israel has been running aggressive influence operations through our religious communities, through Christian radio, through Christian publishing? And isn't the FBI and the DOJ's responsibility to protect us from foreign governments' influence operations? >> It is indeed. But the Israelis get a break. There are no counter propaganda counter intelligence operations against the Israelis. The AIPAC doesn't even have to register as a foreign as a foreign agent. Which is nuts to me. You know, if a few
[54:58] years ago more than a few years ago, 2008 I won a very small contract, very modest contract. I don't know, five, six, eight thousand dollars, whatever it was, to write a series of op-eds in support of um the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce, right? Do business in Abu Dhabi. There are no taxes. It's friendly business environment, that kind of thing. And I had to register as a foreign agent because I was doing this on behalf of a foreign state. AIPAC is the biggest agent of any
[55:30] foreign state in America. But they're exempt from filing. Why? Why do they get special treatment? I'll give you another example of how powerful AIPAC has become. I'm sure you've read articles, you've seen news reports about how there are AIPAC employees literally assigned to every office on Capitol Hill. Every single one. All 535. And they participate in meetings as if
[56:02] they're staff members. They write legislation, which is nuts to me, but they write legislation. Um Nobody else is like that. Well, a Texas state senator called me a few months ago and said, "Hey, I followed your case. I followed you on the, you know, the speaking circuit and all this stuff." He said, "I want to draft a resolution for John Kiriakou Day in the state of Texas." I said, "Oh my god, thank you so much." He said, "We do this 140, 150 times a year. It's just
[56:35] pro forma. Everybody just votes yes and everybody gets a certificate from the governor with a shiny gold seal." I said, "Ah, thank you. It's wonderful." He calls me like 3 weeks later. He says, "Listen, I'm sorry, but that John Kiriakou Day, that's not going to happen." And I said, "Really? What happened?" And he says, "AIPAC objected." I said, "AIPAC?" >> I want this for the Gen Z to hear this. This is important. AIPAC in Texas state legislature vetoed John Kiriakou Day. [laughter]
[57:06] >> I was like, "Are you kidding me?" And he said, "No, they're in all 50 state legislatures." I said, "I had no idea." He said, "Actually now they've gone lower and they're being they're getting involved in mayoral races, city council races, school board races because >> They're building their bench. >> That's exactly what it is. You He the words right out of my mouth. >> And then the problem is now I'm 55 years old. They built a relationship with me since
[57:37] I was 18, 19, 20 years old. I feel a debt. >> Yes, exactly. >> This is a debt I have to people who gave me everything I have in my life. >> You know, for a couple of years I was the senior investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Uh from 2009 to halfway through 2011, I think is what it was. And um I had already worked on Capitol Hill. I'd been on the house side, so now that was as a junior staff member. Now I'm a senior staff member on the Senate side. And literally the first day
[58:08] that we take office, John Kerry is the chairman, so I'm working for Kerry. These two guys just walk right into my office. They don't knock on the door or anything, just walk right in. And I look up, I said, "May I help you?" "Hi. Welcome to Capitol Hill." I'm like, "Yeah, thank you. I I've been on Capitol Hill before. May I help you?" "We're from AIPAC." And I said, "Okay." "We wanted to offer you uh an all-expenses-paid trip to the Holy
[58:38] Land." I said, "No, thanks, guys. I can pay for my own vacations." "Oh, we'll take you to all the Christian holy sites." I said, "No, thanks, guys. I'm not interested." "Well, so far seven of your colleagues are going." I said, "Good for them. I'm not interested." Finally, I had to tell them, "Just get the hell out of my office." >> And it just went downhill from there. >> And these tours are Potemkin Village tours. >> That's exactly what they are. I'll tell you another thing. Just a year earlier in 2008,
[59:09] um my mom called me. My my dad died in 2003, and my mom never quite got over his death. And so she was depressed, and she wanted to do something to pass the time. So she called me, and she said, "NPR is giving a tour of Ireland. I I going to go to Ireland." I said, "Ireland?" I said, Mom, it's February. You know what the weather's like in Ireland? I said, I said, Father >> NPR, that was their fun fundraising event. >> February 8th in Ireland. >> NPR, come on. Okay. >> So, I said I said, Father Ted's going to take a group to to Israel. Why don't you
[59:40] go to Israel with all the all the church group? And she said, oh, that's a good idea. So, she and my sister went to Israel. And [snorts] my mom uh God bless her, she was kind of an innocent soul, right? She didn't know anything about politics or international affairs or anything. So, she gets back. And I told her in advance, I said, take pictures of literally everything. This is the trip of a lifetime. Take pictures of everything. She came back with hundreds of pictures. So, their driver
[1:00:12] for this little van that they had driving them from site to site was a Palestinian Christian, Catholic guy. And um she got back and I said, how was it? And she said, did you have any idea how they treat those Palestinians? And I said, of course I do. She said, it's scandalous. And I said, yeah. And she said that you know, you're driving around Israel like, oh my god, it's first world, it's incredible, it's high-rises and everything is, you know, there's Cartier over there and and you know, Saks Fifth
[1:00:45] Avenue over here. And then you cross into the Palestinian areas. And she said, it's like going into a prison. There are literally walls with barbed wire. And I said, yeah. She said, to make matters worse their driver he's done these tours a thousand times. So, he's not going to go into the, you know, Church of the Nativity again or to this place or to that place. He'll drive you up to it and then he just sits there. And he had one of these little pulp fiction
[1:01:15] dime store novels that he was reading. So, they get stopped at an Israeli checkpoint. And the IDF comes onto van and everybody had to hold up their American passport. But then they snatched the the driver's novel out of his hand and the Israeli soldier says he opens the book, he says, "No picture of Arafat on this page." and tears out the page and throws it at him. "No picture of Arafat on this page." and throws it at him. And then he ends up tearing up the whole book and throwing
[1:01:45] it at him. And the guy just sat there and took it because he had to sit there and take it. And she said the craziest thing was that that was not the exception. That kind of thing happened every time they got stopped. And I said, "That is life in modern-day Israel." >> Last week my team had a camera crew in Taybeh for a Marian festival. The IDF rolled in, drones, helicopters, armored vehicles throwing stun grenades at the Marian festival.
[1:02:16] Um the day before we just happened to be interviewing the owners of the Taybeh brewery, the oldest brewery and microbrewery in the Holy Land and the only one maybe and now still in operation. We have footage of it cuz my one of my guys hid the camera >> Oh. >> and kept the mics on. >> Wow. >> And and a an Israeli soldier with they came in were abusing the owners, refusing to allow a doctor to come check on the mother, the grandmother. And you can hear one of our recordings in Hebrew but with an American accent
[1:02:46] um the soldier says to the woman, "I'm so sorry you're having to go through this." Then the IDF soldier's commander yells at him and says, "We don't Get out of here. We don't talk to those animals like that. Don't show them any respect." >> Mhm. >> And so when you hear the stories it's like a madras. You have to pity these child soldiers, these radicalized settlers, these radicalized guys in the IDF because they they're hate they have such hatred. There's someone who's a prominent conservative American leader who is big in Hollywood and is a settler outside of
[1:03:16] Bethlehem. >> Oh my >> Yeah, one of the owners of a major Christian television network or movie network. Um >> Oh my god. >> And he is a settler and I know him from my film days. I actually like him quite a bit. So, I'm in Bethlehem and I call him and I say, "Hey, brother, will you meet me in Bethlehem for coffee?" He's like, "They're going to kill me. They're going to kill me. It's so dangerous. Get out of there. What are you doing here?" And I And I remember the first time I went to the West Bank, I was nervous because I hear all of my friends, they go on these tours. >> It tells them >> them. They're like they were so brave
[1:03:48] and then you're like, "It's safer than my neighborhood." The people are so kind. I don't see I expected to see boys with green bandannas marching. Now, my son, my 12-year-old wakes up every morning, puts on camo, gets his break barrel gun, puts on a rucksack, and patrols the neighborhood for ISIS. Every day, my 12-year-old. We home school. This is how him and his friends begin the day. That's the I see that every day. You know, we're not radical funama, but and I never saw a kid play with a weapon. And I I said to I never saw kids play army, play war. I saw them riding bikes and jump roping
[1:04:19] and kicking a soccer ball, playing basketball. And I said, you know, in America, we have this vision that your kids were all out of bed with their wooden uh rifles and then they march in the streets and they laugh. They go, "Why would we play war?" >> Yeah. Right, when they live it. >> We live war. It's not a It's not something we think is fun to play. >> May I ask you a question? >> Yeah. >> One of the things that I've been grossly disappointed um with uh over the last, I'm going to say 15 years or so, is the uh the behavior of
[1:04:50] the Arab Gulf states vis-à-vis the Palestinians. Now, I get it. I lived through the First Gulf War. Um For the For those of you who don't know the background, Yasser Arafat was the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization at the time. And there were two members of the United Nations Security Council at the time, Cuba and Yemen, that we were a little worried about. So, Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait. And uh the Bush administration goes to the Security Council for use of
[1:05:20] force. We tell the Cubans, we don't have any sway over the Cubans. We tell the Cubans and the Yemenis, you better vote yes on use of force cuz we had the Russians with us, the Chinese, the British, the the French, all the permanent members. We're going to liberate Kuwait. The right thing to do is to vote yes. The Cubans and the Yemenis voted no. But Yasser Arafat came out in support of Saddam Hussein. Well, there were 6 million Yemenis in Saudi Arabia as
[1:05:53] guest workers. Literally every single one of them was expelled. Yemen has never recovered. In fact, it's way worse now. It collapsed the government. Every Palestinian was thrown out of Kuwait. And not just Kuwait. We liberated Kuwait a couple of months later. Every Palestinian was thrown out, but they were also thrown out of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates. Well, they were the middle class, the Palestinians. They were the >> Most well-educated people in the
[1:06:24] >> the engineers, the professors, the most the the dentists and doctors and the bankers, the entire middle class. The Palestinians have never recovered from that stupid decision to support Saddam Hussein. And so, here we are all these years later. We're talking now 36 years ago this happened. 36 years ago. Is it still, do you think, because of that decision in August of 1990 that the Arab Gulf states
[1:06:57] continue to have their backs turned to the Palestinian people? >> There's a real fear. I I When I'm there, the only Gulf state I'll go go anymore is Qatar. >> Mhm. >> I just get angry at how the migrant workers are treated. I just I get so angry. I'm from Hawaii. My parish is all Filipino and I go there and I see it and I get angry. And so I just don't I don't go. And cutter I see it I see how with dignity the migrant workers are treated from my experience. Um you know the Israeli lobby will say that they're they were kicked out because they're such dirty awful they're
[1:13:44] people are mentoring me as I'm going through my career. And they're saying, "You might not want to take that job. You might want to think about taking this job." Or you know, "I'm volunteering to go to Afghanistan." "No, no. You don't want to go to Afghanistan. You want to go to Pakistan. There's more substantive work. They're just killing people in Afghanistan. You don't want to do that." Things like that. So so it it became
[1:14:15] a consistent theme through the course of my career. And I left my wallet downstairs. In my wallet I keep a a photograph of a very important 20th century saint, Saint Nectarios of Aegina. He's also Saint Nectarios of Pentapolis. Um this was a guy this was a guy that I have I don't know why identified with more closely than any other saint. He's a 20th century saint. We don't We don't make very many new saints in the
[1:14:46] Orthodox Church. The Russians sanctify everybody. They got 100,000 new saints all the time. But not us. So, Nectarios was the was the bishop of Pentapolis, which is in Alexandria, Egypt. And he was a young bishop and very, very popular because he so identified with the poor. You know, there are stories about him giving away his shoes to homeless people because he said, "Oh, I can always find another pair of shoes somewhere."
[1:15:17] Or going hungry so that others had something to eat. Or heading a heading a a seminary in Athens later in his life and when the the janitor got sick and could no longer work, he cleaned the toilets so that the janitor didn't lose his job because he had children at home. >> Oh, that's beautiful. >> The bishop. Um but anyway, he was driven out of Pentapolis because older priests were jealous of the fact that that his career was moving so quickly and they began
[1:15:48] spreading rumors that he was having um affairs with parishioners. It was a terrible, damnable lie. And so, he was fired and sent back to Greece. Well, back then in those days, we're talking about like the 1860s or 1870s. It wasn't like it is now where priests are, you know, government employees and they have nice pensions and the church owns half the property in the country. If it wasn't for the generosity of your
[1:16:18] parishioners, you starved. And so, he practically starved. And then, he received permission to build a monastery, not a monastery, a convent on the island of Aegina and um and began attracting nuns to go and study and lived out the rest of his life there. Well, he never stopped
[1:16:48] trying to reclaim his reputation. But, from the very beginning, he forgave everybody for what they did to him. This idea >> identified with him as a boy. >> As a boy. >> This was the grace of God. >> In fact, >> preparing you. >> I I'll tell you one funny thing that I've never said before. When I first got assigned to Athens, I'm working very closely with the Greek intelligence service. And they said, "Listen, we need to do an operation on
[1:17:20] the island of Aegina." And um I said, "Yeah, great. Let's do it." So, we had to take a hydrofoil over to the island. It's very close to Athens. Back then, it was like 40 minutes. >> wait till they make your movie because you on a hydrofoil to Aegina, this is Hollywood. >> It's awesome, yeah. So, we get there and we weren't sure if the sea was going to be choppy that day or smooth. So, we said, "Let's go like 6 hours early so in case it's choppy and we're delayed, we can still get there in time to do the operation."
[1:17:50] So, we we get there and it's smooth as as oil. The Greeks say uh ithalassa san ladi. The The sea was just as smooth as oil. So, we get there 6 hours early. And the head of surveillance for the Greek intelligence service was a very religious man. And he says to me, "Have you ever been to Saint Nectarios's house?" I said, "Oh my god, I forgot Nectarios is here on Aegina. I would love to see the house."
[1:18:21] So, we go to the house and the convent and it's stunning. I took my son there just a few months ago. I never go to Greece without going to the to the house. And because we're like VIPs, right? >> Yeah. >> They let me sit on his bed. And we went into his study and it's like pictures of his parents from the 1840s and it was incredible. So, immediately next to the house, attached to the house, is a little
[1:18:52] chapel and then next to the chapel is his tomb. Most of his relics have been dispersed, but part of him is still in the in the tomb. And so, I wanted to light a candle and say a prayer and everybody's putting in 100 drachmas, right? Little 100 drachma coin, which at the time was about a quarter. I didn't have any change. So, I reached into my wallet and the smallest
[1:19:22] the smallest thing I had was a 5,000, which was 20 bucks, 20 whatever, whatever 24 bucks. And I thought, "Ah, it's for the convent." So, I put in the 5,000. The head of surveillance had saw me put in the 5,000 and I crossed myself and I lit my candle and I said my prayer. We later learned that he told everybody in the intelligence service to keep their hands off of me and not to put surveillance on me because I was a good Christian boy and I meant them no harm.
[1:19:55] >> That's unbelievable. All Going back to your youth and then Yeah. That leads me to my next question. Well, St. Nectarios, did he find that redemption in his lifetime? >> Not really. He died in 1920. His [snorts] assistant lived until 1968 and if you're at all interested, there's a there's a film on Amazon Prime called Man of God about his life that came out in 2020. >> Seen it on there, suggested. I've never watched it yet, so I'm going to watch that for sure. >> It's breathtaking.
[1:20:27] Don't miss it. It's breathtaking. And um after he he died he died from what we believe was probably prostate cancer. >> Okay. >> So, they realized he was near the end, and so they put him on a donkey. And the donkey carried him all the way from the north side of the island all the way to the port down the mountain, and they put him on a boat, and they sent him to Athens to the Red Cross Hospital, which is still there. It's right by the American
[1:20:57] Embassy. And he died a couple days later in the hospital. Well, there was a man in the next bed who was a farmer who had fallen off a retaining wall, and he broke his back and was paralyzed from the neck down. And he was crying in the bed not because he was paralyzed, but because now he wouldn't be able to farm, and so his wife and his children would starve. And so, the saint died in the next bed.
[1:21:30] And when the nuns went in to wash his body, they took his sweater off, and they put it on the bed where the paralyzed man was, and he got up and walked. >> Unbelievable. >> That was the first of the I have chills. It was the first of the major of the major miracles that were attributed to him. As soon as these miracles began happening, it was before he was even buried. The patriarch of Alexandria
[1:22:00] said, "Oh my god, I made a terrible mistake." Or we made a terrible mistake. And they issued an apology and said that they were wrong, he was right. But remember all those years. >> I mean, we're talking 25, 30 >> Longer than that. 40? >> 40 years. >> 45 years? He forgave all of them. He He still tried to to reclaim his reputation, but he forgave all of them. So, I'm reading this
[1:28:42] my the two hardest times of my life. The night of my arrest. Never saw it coming. And it had been in the works for years. I never ever saw it coming. And the night I was arrested, they released me. And um it was about 10:00 and my wife said, "Come on, let's go to bed. It's been a heck of a day." And I said, "No, I'm going to stay up and watch TV." I wasn't going to stay up and watch TV. I was going to go down to
[1:29:13] the garage and start the car and lay on the back seat. And just let it finish me. And I think she suspected. And she said, "No, come on upstairs." And I said, "No, I'm not ready." She said, "I'm insisting." And so I did. I went upstairs. And um and then my brother called me the next day and he said, "I know you can't see this. But this is going to turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you."
[1:29:45] And I said, "No, I can't see it. I appreciate you saying it. But no, this is the worst thing that ever happened to me." But then I decided to fight. And my my ex-wife now, she said, she was trying to buck me up and she said, "They have consistently underestimated your resolve. They've consistently underestimated your toughness. You have to fight them. And then later she said,
[1:30:16] "You have to keep talking about your case because eventually they're going to move on to their next target, which they did. It was Ed Snowden. And she said, "If you keep talking, your side of the story will become the side of record." >> Cuz they're not going to gaslight forever. >> That's right. >> on all >> They move on. They always move on. And she was right. >> Wise woman. >> Yeah. >> In that instance. In that instance. Uh >> Yeah. >> We'll give her that one, right? That was >> admit to you that I am I am prohibited
[1:30:48] by court order from discussing my ex-wife in uh in detail. >> Yeah. >> But I will say that um I will say that June 30th, 2018, three plus years after I got out of prison was the worst day of my life. >> Okay. >> Because well, in Latin, the words in flagrante delicto >> Mhm. >> mean something. And um >> I thought going to prison was bad. >> This was way, way worse
[1:31:19] than going to prison. But you know, I remember laying there in bed, quite literally laying in bed. I suffered terribly from insomnia. 3:00 in the morning. And against the advice of every intelligence officer I've ever known, I have an Alexa in my room, right? Cuz it plays SiriusXM radio every morning, you know. >> Losing our >> Yeah. >> privacy is worth freedom. >> Yeah, it's like, yeah, exactly. Like, Alexa, >> I think we all we all make that same decision. >> Yeah. So, I I'm laying there and I said,
[1:31:50] "Alexa, what percentage of marriages that begin as affairs end in divorce?" And she says, "The percentage of marriages that begin as affairs and end in divorce is 93%." and I was like, oh, thank god. Okay, so at least I've got that. I'm going to hang on to that for a little while. And then I'm laying there and I have I have an iconostasis in my room, right? Icons that belonged to my great great grandfather from the early part of the 19th century
[1:32:22] and icons that I've picked up around the world, you know, over the years. I have a a cross where somebody carved 1820 into the bottom of it. The crucifix. And so I've got them all on a on a shelf. And I'm looking at them. And Saint Nectarios is one and I have holy oil from the monastery and and holy water and stuff like that. And I'm looking at the icons and I said, am I really that bad of a guy that I deserve this? Really?
[1:32:54] What is it that you wanted me to do that I haven't done? Why do I deserve to be treated like this? I remember saying it out loud at 3:00 in the morning. And I remember being tempted to start boycotting church, which I had never done before. Like, ah, I can't believe in this stuff anymore. And then I thought, no, that's what the devil wants me to do. I'm going to stick it out. And I will say, you know, there's one part of the Greek Orthodox liturgy where the priest
[1:33:25] says where the priest asks God to bless those who love the beauty of thy house. And I really do love the beauty of his house. You know, even after all these years, decades of sitting in church, I still look around at the iconography and I just marvel at it. I marvel at it. And that got me through. >> Did you reflect on the passion? >> Oh my god. >> my god, why have thou forsaken me? >> All the time. Like, every time I start feeling sorry for myself, I I to myself,
[1:33:55] you should be ashamed feeling sorry for yourself. After what all these other people went through, after what Christ went through himself, and you feel sorry for yourself? Shame on you. And it snapped me out of it. >> Yeah, I don't I can't wrap my mind around how people in other faiths grapple with the problem of the mystery of human suffering. >> Yes. >> Because to me, Christianity has the second person of the Trinity exemplifying how one should bear suffering. >> Yeah.
[1:34:26] >> And if we didn't have that, how do I handle my child dying from leukemia, my wife dying in a car accident? >> Exactly. >> How do you even wrap or being betrayed by someone you love? >> Yeah. >> A um a friend of mine um who is one of the greatest heroes I've ever known. He saved more lives than anyone, but he's constantly depressed and feels like a failure because when you do a job like his, you fail a lot, and you don't remember your successes, you remember your failures. And while he was doing this all over the world, his wife was running around um where they were living. And um
[1:34:58] I called him and I said, "Brother, I'm really so sorry." And he said, "It's very painful, but I'm just grateful that I can I feel like now I'm really getting empathy to how our Lord suffered. To be betrayed by people you love." >> There it is right there. >> And I thought, "Wow." >> There it is right there. >> Pretty powerful. So, during those years, those dark years, did you ever kick yourself self and say, "Why did I do this?" >> No. >> Never once. >> I never did. And I can't even really vocalize to you why I didn't. Well, like
[1:35:29] I say, my ex-wife used to say it was because I'm so arrogant and so narcissistic that I my brain won't allow me to think that I did the wrong thing. I'm like, "Okay." All right. And so I just accept it. Maybe I am arrogant. Maybe I am narcissistic, But I know that I did the right thing. I know it. You and I were have had this conversation in the past
[1:36:01] where the CIA culture is such that they want you to believe that everything in life is a shade of gray. Everything. And that's just simply not true. Some things are black and white. They're right or wrong. And in our guts, we all know what the right thing to do is. All of us know. The question then in modern culture is is the right thing also the expedient thing? Right? If you do the wrong thing, maybe you'll make a little bit more money. Maybe you get that promotion.
[1:36:31] Maybe something good happens to you in the short term. But is that how you really want to live your life? You know? And that's not how I wanted to live my life. Another thing, too, is money has never been important to me. And I know that doesn't really make logical sense to a lot of people. But money was never really important to my parents. And because it wasn't important to them, I grew up, you know, just as a kind of a normal middle middle
[1:37:02] maybe slightly lower middle class existence. I never saw the ocean till I was 16 years old. Never went on a plane until I was 18 years old. We just never never did those kinds of things. We never had the money to. And so, when I went into government service, God knows you don't do it for the money. They're not paying you anything. When I When I got hired by the CIA, my annual salary was $17,200. You don't do it for the money. And so, I thought, well, you know, this is my lot in life. This is what I
[1:37:33] was meant to do. It's not about making money. It's just about doing the right thing. And I came to, you know, really believe it. >> And so, as you're going through all this, you never had regret. Now, if I would map your life out, and then I'm going to I have Gen Z, you are the icon to Gen Z. And there's no one I would rather be I am so grateful that they have found you because there is a bewildering mix of people they look up to. And they all have like glimmers and flashes of virtue. And then
[1:38:03] but like you you are a man of that presents himself and Gen Z recognizes having integrity. And they it's just like they drink they binge watch I I told you one time my kids came to meet with me. It was the day that my two old my my 19-year-old and 18-year-old son wanted to tell me they wanted to work for me for a lot of their life like serving the vulnerable people through the vulnerable people project. And they have said, "Yeah, Dad, there's this guy you'd love. John Karakitsios." Like this is early on and they were like they could I said, "I don't know who you're talking about." Then they started
[1:38:34] describing I'm like, "Oh, John Kiriakou?" They go, "Yeah." I'm like, "Oh." I turned my phone around. Look who just I was texting with. My kids' like eyeballs popped out. And they said, "Dad, do you know who he is?" I'm like, "Yeah, he's my friend." He goes, "No, no. He's the biggest guy in the world." I'm like, "Does he know that? I don't think he knows that." And he's like he has to know it. Like Gen Z has discovered him. So, you know, Gen Z to me has been totally forgotten. The Pope Pope Leo just came out with this beautiful encyclical that's being criticized on AI.
[1:39:04] >> the the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of America came out with an encyclical a couple of days ago saying everybody needs to read Pope Leo's encyclical because he's right on. >> I I think God for him. You know, it's a fluke. I was in Rome for the for the conclave. I was wearing a Chicago White Sox hat. And so, NBC Evening News and Chicago ABC wanted to interview me. And they'd ask me why he took the name Pope Leo. And I said, "I think it's because he recognizes that AI is a threat to the working class the way the Industrial Revolution is and we'll probably get a an encyclical drawing on
[1:39:36] Rerum Novarum." And that's exactly what we got. And he has such a thoughtfulness. AI, first of all, the apps, pornography, has brutalized her moral imagination, destroyed their ability to experience authentic awakening of the erotic. Um they've got the OnlyFans, all of this. And then now you have AI. So, you're never going to get married, you're never going to have kids, and guess what? Now you're never going to have a job. And it seems like the whole world is out to lunch on this. Um and so Gen Z is just like this, anyone care about us? Is anyone thinking about our future? >> Yeah. >> And then here you are. And they And they
[1:40:07] discover you. Can you explain a little bit why do you think Gen Z has responded to you so powerfully? >> Well, the way it started is odd. It's kind of a disconnect. So, I gave an interview in January to uh Steven Bartlett at Diary of a CEO, the Diary of a CEO podcast. >> So, it was just this January when it took off. >> happened. And I've been telling the same stories for 19 years, and nobody paid any attention. So, I gave this interview, and it was
[1:40:38] kind of the standard long-form podcast interview, the same interview I I've given to Tucker Carlson or or Joe Rogan or a couple of others. It was a little bit more philosophical. And then I, you know, got on the plane and went home. A sophomore from the University of Texas at Austin took that interview and cut it into shorts, sped up my voice, slowed down my voice,
[1:41:08] shot lasers out of my eyes. >> [laughter] >> I'm loving this. >> And it went completely crazy. Right after that interview, I flew to Dubai. I had a a contract there. And my niece called me. And she said, "Uncle John, you're exploding on TikTok." I said, "Why?" And she said, "I don't know, but it's huge." And I was like, "Uh, okay." The next night at 2:30 in the morning, I get a call from the Creative Artists
[1:41:38] Agency, the biggest talent agency in the world. They didn't know I was in Dubai, so it was like afternoon for them. And the guy says, "Tell me that you're not represented." And I said, "No, I'm not represented, but what's going on?" And he said, "You're just blowing up the internet." And they wanted to represent me. And I said, "But why is this happening?" And they were like, "We don't know, but it's happening." And I said, "Okay, sign me up." That's the origin of it. But the result has been
[1:42:12] that it seems that Gen Z trusts me because I'm a truth-teller. I don't have any personal agenda. None. I think that for the most part, mainstream media lies to us every single day. And I think that young people need to develop the analytic skills necessary to get to the bottom of issues on their own cuz they're not going to get it from Fox and CNN and MSNBC and the others.
[1:42:42] They're not going to get it. People ask me all the time, "Where do you get your information?" My answer is from literally everywhere. It takes me hours every morning. I start with The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The LA Times, The BBC, The Times of London, AP, Reuters, Al Jazeera, Al Monitor. I just go down this list of 25 different outlets. Because you educate yourself enough from every single point of view
[1:43:12] so that you can make your own conclusion based on the evidence that you're seeing. >> So, there's no email I can subscribe that I haven't I haven't found it. >> No, I haven't found it. And I think that people have concluded that I'm telling the truth. The truth has hurt me significantly over the years, and I just continue to tell the truth. It really is as simple as that. >> Could it be they also feel abused and abandoned by the establishment? >> that's a very important part of it.
[1:43:43] >> and abandoned? >> at look at affiliations with political parties. They're at historic lows right now. I really believe that we're headed for some sort of a watershed political event in the country. Um I'm not exactly sure what that's going to look like yet, but think of it this way. As recently as a century ago, we had as many as six viable political parties in this country. We had cabinet members. Think of Salmon P. Chase, the the Secretary of the Treasury under Lincoln, or or
[1:44:15] William Stanton, Secretary of War under Lincoln. They were each members of six different political parties. If you had a problem with a position that your party took, you just quit. >> And Lincoln didn't like any of them, I think. >> And team of rivals. >> Yeah. >> And you would just jump to a different party. So, how did we box ourselves into this you know, this essentially uniparty, this duopoly that's really a uniparty? When a century ago, we had we had a populist party, we had a
[1:44:45] socialist party, we had you know, the Free Soil Party and this party and that party and the farmer DFL, the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, and we had all these different parties that were winning seats in Congress, that were winning governorships. Why have we relegated ourselves to two sides of the same coin? So, I think we're headed we're headed towards something big. I'm just old enough to remember
[1:45:16] 1968 and 1969. I remember sitting on my dad's lap. He was watching the news, and the news showed all these buildings on fire, and I asked him why these buildings were on fire. And he said, "A very bad man killed Martin Luther King and black people were very upset." I still remember him saying it like that. And then a couple months later my mother just crying all day because Robert Kennedy had been shot and killed. And then a friend of ours
[1:45:47] uh a friend of my parents um lost his daughter at Kent State. She was one of the the five that was shot and killed. Yeah. So, I remember this upheaval, these riots in the streets, and the national >> forming you. This was forming your moral conscience. >> Very much. >> Losing a friend losing his daughter at Kent State must have been a big part of your identifying with the left. >> Mhm. It it very much was. Uh Governor Rhodes Governor Rhodes was the governor of Ohio that ordered the National Guard just open fire on unarmed students.
[1:46:18] And in our house Governor Rhodes was the devil. You know? Open fire on unarmed students for a peaceful political protest. What is this? North Korea? You know? And so yeah, that did inform my my political views. Um so I don't know how we've gone from the free thinking of '68 and '69 through '74 which was the year of Watergate
[1:46:49] to this thing where we pretend to have these significant political differences and we're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. >> That's that's what's happening. And Gen Z knows it. >> And they know it. They recognize it. >> and y'all are rearranging the deck chairs." >> it. Yes. >> And Pope Leo recognizes it. >> Leo recognizes >> patriarch recognizes >> Pope Leo has been has had his intellect consistently underestimated. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Well, he's from Chicago after he's a Sox
[1:47:19] fan. >> That's right. >> So, there's that. >> around the block. >> Yeah. >> So, I have some questions from Gen Z for you. >> Okay, great. >> Okay, I had Gen Z-ers uh the hope of the you know, they're they're they're I they're what gives me hope. Okay. Is the CIA Oh, no, no, I want to ask this question first. Cuz this is a good question. Okay. Not saying that the moon landing was faked or that the CIA was involved in
[1:47:49] the killing of John F. Kennedy, but as someone who worked inside the intelligence community, do you think the US government could keep a secret that big, faking the moon landing, assassinating a president, or hiding aliens from us? Could they if they wanted to hide that those secrets from us? >> [sighs] >> I hate to be wishy-washy, but yes and no. Um the moon landing wasn't faked, of
[1:48:19] course. Um we've got the science to prove it. But um you know what? I'm going to answer that with an anecdote that Bob Kennedy Jr. told me. And when he told me this, I said, "Bob, you've you've got to write this down. This social scientists need to know this." He said that he said that on November 22nd Did I say this already? November 22nd, 1963 the day that his uncle was assassinated in in Dallas, his mother went to
[1:48:53] the junior high where he was attending in McLean, Virginia minutes after the assassination and pulled him out of school. And they drove back to the house. It was called Hickory Hill, big mansion in McLean, Virginia. And he said he got out of the car and his father was standing in the driveway speaking with John McCone, who was the director of the CIA. As background both the Kennedys and the McCoans were very devout Catholics. And Mrs. McCoan had died 6 months earlier
[1:49:24] from breast cancer. The Kennedys were very worried about Director McCoan. They were worried that he was so distraught by her death that he might harm himself. And so, John McCoan had dinner with the Kennedys seven nights a week. And after dinner, he and Bob Kennedy would go swimming together. So, Bobby Jr. gets out of the car, walks past his dad, and he hears his dad say to Director McCoan, "Tell me your people didn't do this." And McCoan answered,
[1:49:55] "I don't know who did it." He did not say, "Of course my people didn't do this. What in the world would make you think the CIA would kill the President of the United States?" It's not what he said. He said, "I don't know who did this." So, did the CIA kill John Kennedy? Of course not. Did elements of the CIA kill John Kennedy? I think that's something that we'll never know the answer to, but I think the circumstantial evidence is such that we should be asking these questions because it's entirely possible.
[1:50:25] >> So, you know, as an outsider, when I hear there are rogue elements within the CIA, I'm saying to myself, "Oh, please let that just be Hollywood fantasy." >> No, there are there are rogue elements. Especially, you know, pre-1975, pre-Church-Pike Committees, immediately post-9/11. Yeah, I kind of make a a joke about this uh this guy that I used to work with. Friendliest guy in the world. Rick.
[1:50:57] I was working in the Counterterrorism Center, and he would come in every day. "Morning, fellas." We'd say, "Morning, Rick." "How was your weekend, fellas?" "Hey, great, Rick. How was your weekend?" "Yeah, great." "Hey guys, you going to go to the agency picnic?" "Yeah, Rick, we'll see you at the picnic." Finally, I said to the guy I was sitting next to him, Frank. I said, "You know, he's the nicest guy in the world and I really don't know what he does here." And Frank says, "He's the head of the special activities division." So his job was every Tuesday morning
[1:51:30] you get the kill list which is what they called it. Every Tuesday morning at the White House, CIA people meet with the White House counsel and their people come up with a list of people to kill that week. Rick gets the list. He sends his guys out. He goes out all around the world. You kill the guy that's on the list and you come back and you get the next list the next Tuesday. And I said, "Wow, that's that's not good. Right? I mean, none of these people have been
[1:52:00] charged with a crime. If these are such bad people I mean, this is the United States of America. >> Yeah. >> We have a constitution. If these guys are so bad, charge them with a crime. You can't just decide you don't like somebody's politics and go and blow their brains out. And as it turned out, some of them were American citizens who had never been charged with a crime. Again, some things are right or wrong and this is wrong. After I left the CIA
[1:52:31] Rick retired. He I left in '04, he retired in like '06. And in '07, Vanity Fair magazine wrote an expose about him. I couldn't believe what I read. He had been a hit man for the Cali Cartel. And he struck up a friendship with a dark figure in my career who ended up becoming the Deputy Director for Operations.
[1:53:04] Because they were both working against communist insurgents in Colombia. Cuz the Cali Cartel hated the communists and vice versa. Well, the CIA hated the communists and the enemy of of my enemy is my friend. And so, the agency and the Cali Cartel are working together to stamp out communism as if that mattered. And so, he says, "Hey, listen, if you don't want to do Cartel hits anymore, I'm I'm the CIA station chief down here. Why don't you come and do hits for me?"
[1:53:36] And that was it. He was a hitman for the Cali Cartel. That's not That's not cool. >> No. >> No. How How did that happen? >> still doing this? Are they still getting the kill lists? >> Uh we don't know. They won't They won't say. They won't tell us. The kill list was outed in um The Atlantic Monthly magazine. The um originator of the kill list was one John Brennan. And uh we don't know if >> John Brennan's drone war killed hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of children.
[1:54:07] >> god. I have a friend, Daniel McHale. Daniel just got out of prison himself. He was a drone operator from the US Air Force. He's the one who blew the whistle on the drone program. And he tells the most chilling story. He was operating a drone from a base in Nevada. His boss was at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida. So, they're both looking at the screen. Daniel's operating the drone. And he sees the target. The target's in Afghanistan, right?
[1:54:40] And Daniel says, "I have eyes on the target." And his boss in MacDill says, "Fire." And Daniel says, "Wait a minute. He's with two little kids." And his boss says, "Those aren't kids. Those are goats." He said, "I'm looking at them. They're not goats. They're children. They're girls." And his boss says, "Fire." And he said, "I can't fire. They're children." >> It's an illegal order. >> He says, "Fire or be court-marshaled."
[1:55:12] And he fires. And he kills a 12-year-old girl and a 9-year-old girl. And he went home that night and he said to his girlfriend, "I became a child killer today." How do you How do we live with ourselves? >> you recover from that? >> You can't recover from that. But this is what I what I mean when I say >> In Israel right now, they have a ramp the suicide rate of IDF soldiers is unprecedented. >> It's got to be. Because you can't all be monsters,
[1:55:43] right? >> Yeah. >> Somebody's got to have a conscience. >> Not Lindsey Graham. >> No. >> Not Randy Fine. >> Lindsey Graham is perfectly happy to kill your children and your children and your children. He doesn't care. Yeah. And Fine, who wears an IDF uniform onto the floor of the house like a traitor. >> Who did? Oh, Fine. All right. Yeah, Congressman Fine. He was shown a picture of a dead Palestinian child. >> Yeah. >> And he said, "Oh, that's a lovely picture. I'd like to see more of those." And this isn't an international scandal, but then Gen Z is watching this.
[1:56:14] >> Normal people don't talk like that. >> Yeah, it's not how normal people talk. Ben Gvir, you listen to Ben Gvir talk? >> His wife Listen, the Israelis passed a law 2 weeks ago allowing for the death penalty, but only for Palestinians. Not for Jews. And on the day that the Knesset passed it into law, his wife baked him a cake in the shape of a gallows. These are not normal people. This is not normal life. We need to reclaim what's right. >> You know, I think we're going to see a
[1:56:45] political shift in this country like we did after desegregation. And ironically, it's going to be around segregation. You know, when you look at Israel, it is a segregated apartheid state that makes the Jim Crow South look like Utopia. >> Very much so. >> And I think it's hard for most Americans to believe that, but you have settlers attacking Christian villages with the IDF pulling security. So, if you try to protect yourself, protect your property, you're shot right in the face or arrested. >> Yep. And how many American citizens have been
[1:57:15] killed in the West Bank in recent years? >> this week. >> Mhm. And does the American government lift a finger >> No. >> to do anything in the name of justice? Nothing. Literally nothing. >> It's frustrating. I can talk to you about the West Bank and Gaza and Lebanon. I mean, that's the nightmare, too. Okay, so here are some more Gen Z questions. Um What do you know about Project Gateway and using astral projection to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War? This is The Men Who Stare at Goats question. Is
[1:57:47] that what this is? Okay. >> So, Project Gateway was a part of what was called MK Ultra. MK Ultra was a very, very broad scope operation that began in 1952 and ended in 1975 and included a lot of different things. ESP, astral projection, mind reading, um LSD and using LSD to get people to
[1:58:18] confess to their deepest, darkest secrets. A whole bunch of different stuff. It was a disaster. And it ended up in the deaths of a lot of people, a lot of innocent people. So, the way it started off was the CIA recruited a source who was a fake, a phony source, who said, "Hey, the Russians are experimenting with this, you know, ESP and astral projection and mind reading and all this stuff. We're behind the eight ball." That wasn't true. The Russians were not
[1:58:49] doing any such thing. The Chinese were, but we didn't know that. So, we said, "Oh my god, we have to we have to get up to speed as fast as we can." And the CIA comes up with this program, MK Ultra, and they start just pouring resources into it. Beginning with LSD. And because >> [laughter] >> the CIA >> [snorts] >> often moves into the area of utter lawlessness, they start dosing their own employees
[1:59:20] unwittingly. You just just slip LSD into people's coffee and you know, their food, and just just see what happens to them. >> Well, I wonder what's going to happen to Joe if I dose him with LSD. >> Jacob's Ladder, if you've seen that movie. >> Joe's going to go to the roof and jump off cuz he thinks he can fly. And then you got to explain to his kids why your dad went to work this morning perfectly normal and then committed suicide at lunchtime. >> And this that happened. >> Yeah, that happened. In fact, um there's even been um a documentary about it. So, that was one part of it.
[1:59:52] They hired psychics and seers and readers, and and it was all silliness and nonsense. It never amounted to anything. But then there were sub operations of MK Ultra, like MK Chickwit, for example. Uh >> [laughter] >> where we broke into the lab in Switzerland and stole the formula for LSD, so we could make it better. And then we just decided to I'm not making this up. It's all It's
[2:00:23] all out there on online. You can find it. We decided to make San Francisco the sort of the the headquarters of these experiments. And so So, hippy culture, the Grateful Dead, Fish, All All at the same time. >> is the fruits >> Yes. >> of CIA. >> It all came out of CIA. So, we decided to recruit a whole contingent of prostitutes. And we set up a safe house. So, we sent the prostitutes out to pick up Johns, clients,
[2:00:55] dose them with LSD, bring them back to the safe house, tie them down, and get them to confess their deepest, darkest secrets. And it just didn't work. They were just, you know, jabbering incoherently and having flashbacks and freak outs, and it just didn't work. And then we decided, "Well, let's uh let's come up with a germ. And we'll wait until a really foggy day when the air is really heavy, and we'll just shoot this germ into the air in San
[2:01:28] Francisco, and just see if anybody gets sick." Cuz then we can do it in Moscow and really screw them up. Right? So, we come up with this germ that's developed in a CIA lab. We wait until an unusually foggy day, and then just drive around the city with these big pipes, just blowing the germ into the into the atmosphere. Two days later, 11 people came down with this extraordinarily rare upper respiratory infection that had never been seen in San
[2:01:58] Francisco before. And we were like, "Hey, that worked. We should we should do that in the Moscow subway system and see if we can really, you know, screw them up." Then there was another experiment where they um they decided to dose There's a small village in France. I forgive me, I don't remember >> Was this a small >> it was very, very small. It was tightly held. Um it was a compartmented program. So, we we went to this village in France. It had one bakery that supplied
[2:02:28] the entire village, and we dosed the yeast. In the middle of the night, we broke into the bakery and put LSD in the yeast. The baker comes to work in the morning. He makes all the bread. He sells the bread to everybody in the village. Everybody in the village goes on an LSD trip. And then for decades we're like, "It wasn't us. It wasn't us. It wasn't us." And then in the '90s we're like, "Okay, it was us." And then finally in 1975 the CIA had just gone too far, right?
[2:02:59] We've we've just lost the Vietnam War and everybody in the CIA is like smuggling heroin back from Vietnam and it's just a disaster. So, Senator Frank Church, a Democrat of Idaho convenes a a special committee known as the Church Committee. Sen- uh Congressman Otis Pike, a Democrat from Long Island, convenes a a parallel committee in the House side, the Pike Committee. They morphed into the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
[2:03:30] And they started investigating the CIA what what was then called the Family Jewels. Where they demanded literally everything that the CIA had. Well, the first thing that comes up is MKUltra and associated assassination programs. The CIA wasn't supposed to be assassinating people. In fact, it was out there assassinating thousands of people. So, Congress put the brakes on that. Senator Church specifically told the CIA director
[2:04:01] "Do not destroy the MKUltra documents." Direct order. He literally went from Capitol Hill back to headquarters and said, "Destroy everything." And so everybody in the building is just shredding documents. They destroyed 85% of the MKUltra documents. 15% survived. That's why we have this little idea after all these years of what it was, but we really don't know what the overall program was because it was all destroyed. Well,
[2:04:33] the director was fined $500 for this egregious criminal act of defying Congress. And the old-timers used to talk about this when I when I first got there. >> what the IDF does for its soldiers when they Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Uh by God, you're going to be fined $500. What happened was he was held in contempt of of Congress. He was found guilty, fined $500. He went back to headquarters, and the old-timers told me that every CIA employee had lined the halls,
[2:05:05] and they were throwing dollars and five dollars into a hat to pay the director's $500 fine. Just as a big FU to to Congress. >> What caused that that Was it the the shock of World War II when you still had this culture that we're facing existential threat from social communist >> That's exactly what it was. The it was the communist boogeyman. Well, um also in 1960 I'm sorry, in 1975, Senator Church and Congressman Pike insisted
[2:05:36] on an executive order that became known as EO 12333. Executive Order 12333 became the basis for what the CIA was allowed to do overseas and not allowed to do. And the original draft the original version signed version of 12333 forbade assassinations. Okay? Until September 12th, 2001. And then President Bush kind of crossed that part out and said, "Kill anybody
[2:06:08] you want." And that's what they've been doing ever since. >> Now, are these assassinations done by the special activities group? Are they like in the movies? Do they poison people, have heart attacks, commit suicide, or is it just >> different kinds of things. >> as in the movies? >> Yeah, it is. It can be. I mean, sometimes it's as crude as you know, the guy's walking his dog. This happened recently, I read in the paper. Uh the guy's walking his dog, a van pulls up alongside, the side door opens, uh you get a bullet in your
[2:06:40] brain, the door closes, and the van drives off. >> That's when they're sending a message. They want people to know what happened. >> Mhm. Sometimes they'll kidnap a guy and then nobody ever sees him again. There There were times when I was the executive assistant to the CIA's Deputy Director for operations. After I got back from Pakistan, I got promoted. And the the Deputy Director made me his assistant. In that position, you see literally everything that the CIA is doing everywhere in the world.
[2:07:11] Compartments six levels above top secret. It was ridiculous. I couldn't even sleep at night. But you you see I have to be careful with what I say here. You see some some things that you're like what? Why would we do that? Right? We're a nation of laws or we're not a nation of laws. You can't pretend to be one while being the other. If you don't like this guy's politics, you can't just walk up to him and put a
[2:07:43] bullet in his head. You know, we we we would get these cables like oh, uh yeah, we were uh interrogating this guy uh during the night. And um uh Jim may have gone a little too far, but um well, he's deceased now, so what should we do? And then the the geographic uh office will write back, well, where are you? Well, we're next to the safe house. Can you just bury him in the backyard?
[2:08:16] Yeah, we'll just do that. And they just dig a hole and bury the guy. And then years later, you see these newspaper articles like, so-and-so's family, they haven't heard from him in years. He He was there one day and gone the next. And like, where could he possibly be? Uh I can tell you where he is. He's buried in the backyard of the safe house. But that's not a nation of laws. That's not what a nation of laws does. So, we're either going to be the good guys or we're not going to be the good guys. But we can't pretend to be one while being the other.
[2:08:47] >> And if we're not the good guys, we won't be able to remain our >> Oh, exactly. >> position as the sole hegemon. >> Exactly. >> Because the rest of the world is wise to us. And it's all going to collapse around us. >> They're wise to us now. >> Yeah. >> How do we What would your advice be to I mean, you're looking at what's happening in Lebanon right now. It's scandalous. It's shocking. It's unimaginable. And uh it's just as if things are it's just You know, I I have a different view of the German people in the '30s and '40s. Like, what could they have known?
[2:09:18] We have phones bombarding us with information every day. The Germans would not have known what was happening in Auschwitz or in the Eastern Front or in Paris. Um but the American people have access to this information. But they have rational ignorance. So, I have to pick my kids up from school. I have to My boss wants this report. My wife wants me to make more money. They're just thinking about their life and they don't have time to think about the decimation of ancient Christian cities, monasteries, churches, schools. Um what if you were to sit down across
[2:09:49] from President Trump and say, "This is what you need to do so we can reclaim and maintain our position in the world?" What would you say? >> I think that he needs to put the interests of the United States first, above all else. We have succored our foreign policy to Israel. And Israel's security is not my concern as an American. My concern is the security of the United States of America. And joining ourselves at the hip with Israel is dragging us down. You
[2:10:19] know, there was a You know The Onion? The satirical I love The Onion, They had a headline a couple weeks ago that just really hit. And it said um China content to sit back and watch US destroy itself. Exactly. Because that's what's happening. We're destroying ourselves. Listen, when when you have votes in the United Nations General Assembly every single year for the last 50 years and literally the entire world is on one side and on
[2:10:50] the other side is the US, Israel, Costa Rica and Nauru. There's a problem. We're not smarter than everybody else in the rest of the world every year. Joining ourselves with the Israelis. >> And it's undermining our interest in the world. >> It is. It's really undermining in the world. When I went to Israel last time, 2022, one thing I saw that at first perplexed me and then just pissed me off.
[2:11:22] When you you're in the old city in Jerusalem and you're approaching the Western Wall, right? There's like a museum there and and some think tank or whatever. People had put up these signs, like glued these signs to the walls and they said, "America, we are with you." It's like, what? First [snorts] of all, about what? Secondly, >> The size of Milwaukee. >> Yeah. We don't want you with us. >> What do you with us with uh yeah. >> Yeah. It it hurts us that you're with
[2:11:53] us. We don't want you. You can't live with civilized countries. >> You just hit the nail on the head. Though, I think the average like boomer, me, who would have been me, even though I'm a Gen Xer, to the Gen Z, anyone over anyone who didn't have a smartphone in their pocket during puberty is a boomer. And I think that's a good designation cuz it's true. They're different than the rest of us. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so as a typical boomer conservative Republican, I would have if I would have heard that 15 years ago before I had a lot of experience in the region, I would say, "What are you talking about?
[2:12:23] They're the only civilized country in the region." And I had this I had this idea that they were >> democracy in the Middle East. >> that they were surrounded by all of these just barbarians. And then you go to Lebanon and Jordan and Iraq and Syria and and and the Palestine and like these are beautiful, deep And in the Middle East, they're even very proud. They're like, "We're not like the Gulf states. We have a culture and a civilization." >> And they do. >> They do. >> Yeah, they do. Like you have the Yazidi that are the proto-Semitic people that have been living in the same valleys since Abraham left. Since Abraham left.
[2:12:55] >> yes. >> Christian communities praying in Aramaic >> Yes. >> where St. Thomas put a church. >> Yes. Exactly. >> And then you're going to watch the 700 Club or John Hagee and you're going to preach theology to first-century Christian communities in the Holy Land that's ancestors were in the upper room. >> Yeah. That's exactly right. >> So, what would you say to the boomer Republican who's been watching 700 Club since the '90s, watching Pastor Hagee, watching Fox News, they just can't hear it?
[2:13:25] >> Read the history. You've got to open your mind to the history. Don't believe some guy yapping at you on your TV. You have to read and understand the history. It really is as simple as that. But people do what's expedient. It's It takes time and it's hard and maybe it's boring and but you've got Read the early church fathers. >> Just go there. Keep your mouth shut. >> That's that's a great idea. >> from Bethlehem to Taybeh >> Mhm. >> That's a great idea.
[2:13:56] >> forever. >> I couldn't agree more. >> This is the last Gen Z question, which I really love. What beliefs did you hold strongly at 30 that you no longer believe today? >> Oh, that's a good >> the way, you're an Angry Birds legend. This is from Colin. >> I live I live Angry Birds. >> By the way, that's something my kids loved about. She's like, "Dad, like he just talks about his love for Angry Birds. [laughter] It's like, who does that? That is so cool." But, it's that kind of transparency and honesty >> [laughter] >> that you were like reflect I needed you I needed to play Angry Birds. This is
[2:14:26] what makes me happy. This is what I do. >> It brings me joy in the morning. >> you joy. >> Yeah. >> I love it. >> I I have a routine in the morning. This is apropos of nothing, but I have a routine in the morning. I play Angry Birds. That takes about an hour, 50 minutes. I play the daily uh solitaire, just cuz I have a streak that I don't want to break. But, my doctor told me to do the New York Times crossword puzzle every day because it actually does fend off, you know, the degeneration of the brain. And I
[2:14:58] don't want like I don't have dementia in my family on either side, but just to be on the safe side, I want to keep my brain fresh. So, I do the Washington Post crossword, the New York Times crossword, the uh USA Today crossword if I have the time, Angry Birds and solitaire. >> challenging of the crosswords? >> Times. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Especially Saturday. Saturday's way harder than Sunday. >> pros. >> Oh, yeah. Saturday's tough. Like I I'm 2/3 done with today's. It's hard. But, anyway, um
[2:15:29] what do I not believe now that I believed at 30? That we are just unequivocally the good guys. It's just not true. It's not. I also believed I used to say all the time, "I want my leaders to be smarter than I am." Right? To make wise decisions. And I've I've come to realize they're just human beings, and most of them aren't smarter than the rest of us. They're just more political and, you know, found themselves in positions of power.
[2:16:01] Um >> They have the same nervous system, the same bandwidth, the same >> Yeah, I'll I'll tell Yeah, [clears throat] they do. I'll tell you a story. When I was when I was in college um I I was very fortunate to win this thing called the Lyndon B. Johnson Congressional Scholarship or internship. So, it was the only paid internship on Capitol Hill. And I worked for my Congressman. He was a conservative Democrat from Western Pennsylvania, pro-life, pro-gun, pro-labor, you know, the old old school Democrat. And um I liked the guy a lot.
[2:16:31] I sat next to the press secretary who was this really, really good-looking. She'd been Miss Iowa of all things. And she was dating an Exxon lobbyist. He was a great guy, too. See, he'd come and hang out in the office all the time. One day, the Congressman comes in. I'm only saying this cuz he died recently. So, he can't like sue me or anything. But the Congressman comes in one day and he goes like this. He goes, "I got laid last night." >> [laughter] >> And I said,
[2:17:03] "No, he didn't. Mrs. Coulter's not even in Washington. She's in Pittsburgh." And I was like, >> [sighs] >> And the lobbyist said to me, "You see, they're all dogs. They all put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you do, and they're all dogs who think that they're better than everybody else." He said, "I don't know why you idolize these guys." And he was right. He was right. I went into
[2:17:34] I went into see um the Assistant Secretary of State one time. He had He called me and asked me to come over to a He wanted a briefing on this really like obscure issue dealing with the Gulf. So, I went in. And um he said, "You know, I was at the White House the other day in this mutual colleague's office. And I saw a picture on his desk with that friend of yours." I said, "What friend of mine?"
[2:18:04] "That woman you sit next to." I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "The director has a picture of himself with the woman you sit next to." I said, "They're They're both married." And I was like, "Oh, for heaven's sake." >> And they don't even It's not even >> And next thing you know, they both get divorced, they marry each other. It's like, you know, it's Peyton Place over here. We used to have this joke at the CIA. That when you go into a conference a conference room, never touch the table
[2:18:35] cuz you don't know who was having sex on it last night. And it was serious. In 2004, 2003 um we had to send doctors from the Office of Medical Services out to Iraq because CIA officers were passing around a CIA specific strain of gonorrhea amongst each other. It was seen only in CIA officers. And the doctors are like, "Can't you people control yourselves?"
[2:19:06] >> got caught on the top of the embassy having sex. >> did. >> This And that guy is an animal. I'd love to do a documentary exposé on him. >> You and I should chat about that after this. I got some stuff to tell you. >> I mean, that guy And And when I would when I was in Iraq documenting the genocide the Peshmerga and I'd meet with senior leadership and I'd meet with generals. I'd meet too. But they'd all have US Embassy stories. >> Yeah. Cuz they're all pigs. >> They're pigs. They talk about they they'd have to get a shuttle because they were so drunk, they couldn't even So this is why I don't have empathy for them. Um
[2:19:37] I I have to imagine if they're engaged in high-risk adultery in front of everyone at the office. >> you. >> That they have existential angst, they're lonely, they're despairing, and they just want to that this is kind of tragic. So, it's a culture of tragically lonely people, which then if I was a foreign if I was another intelligence agency, no one's easier for me to recruit than someone who's lonely and alienated. >> all lonely and alienated alienated. Let me tell you, my deputy director that I worked for had been married five times. And all five of
[2:20:07] his wives had first been his secretary. All five [snorts] of them. I'll give you another example. When I was working in Pakistan, um I was dating a senior CIA officer who became my wife. So, we were just dating at the time. I had just gotten divorced. And um we had this uh trunk line in the in the station. So, even though I was in Pakistan, I could pick up that phone and it was a local Washington, D.C. number. So, we were 11 and 1/2 hours ahead. So,
[2:20:39] when I'd get to the office at 7:00, I would call her at 7:30 the previous evening in Washington. And we would just talk about how our day was. So, one of the guys in my office, I had seven old-timers um working for me. They had all been either director or deputy director of Near East operations, and they came back after 9/11 just for patriotic reasons. But if you're a contractor, you can't lead a group. So, I was the chief of the group, and all of these senior intelligence service officers were
[2:21:09] working for me, which was a great blessing for me. I learned more from them than I learned over the rest of the course of my career. >> And these were men that came up in the when it was all on on the line. >> The yeah, the battle days. So, my girlfriend and I would end each conversation with, "Okay, love you. Mwah." and hang up. And one of them heard me. And he says, "So, are there wedding bells in the future?" And I said, "Oh, I don't know. I I just got divorced. I'm
[2:21:40] kind of afraid of being a two-time loser." That's what I said, two-time loser. He says, "Two-time loser? I've been married four times. Dave, how many times have you been married?" He says, "Five for me. Bill, how many times have you been married? I got three. Frank, how many times have you been married? Four for me. He says, two-time loser. Kid, you're just getting started, he says to me. And I said, oh my god, I don't want to be like you guys. I get home.
[2:22:11] We get married. And one night we're sitting on the floor of the living room watching a movie. It's like midnight. We're watching this movie and her cell phone rings and it happened to be next to me. I picked it up and I said, it's like a 16-digit number. I said to her, I think it's a sat phone. And she says, answer it. See who it is. So I said, hello. And this voice says, is Heather there? And I said, Tony?
[2:22:42] And he said, yeah, who's this? I said, it's John. Where are you? He said, I'm in Afghanistan. And he said, he said, why are you answering Heather's phone? I said, cuz she's my wife. Why are you calling Heather's phone at midnight? Oh, he goes, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you two were together. I said, Tony, why don't you use your 1 minute of sat time every week to call your own wife
[2:23:12] instead of calling mine. But that's typical of the CIA. They don't care. And that's a problem in marriage. >> And the culture, that should be seen as a real security problem. >> for these two guys. I loved and respected both of them, Mike and Gene. Two of the finest officers I ever worked for. And they hated each other. So one day I said to Gene, I said, Gene, you and Mike are both you're two of my favorite people. I don't understand why you hate each other so much.
[2:23:44] And Gene says, I'll I'll you. He said, our first tour together, we were in Karachi and Mike screwed my wife." I said, "Oh my god, that's terrible. I'm so sorry to hear that." And he said, "No, that's okay." He said, uh, "Our second tour was Bogota and I screwed his wife." And I said, "You know, this is exactly what's wrong with this organization." I said, "Shame on both of you." >> By the way, am I that naive? I just think if I'm wanting to recruit somebody, I want to recruit someone who's just betrayed by someone in his own organization in such a horrible way.
[2:24:14] >> Exactly right. Talk about a vulnerability. >> like quite a vulnerability. Then you have a culture like this where Brett McGurk is on the top of the embassy, the whole Middle East knows. The whole Middle East >> in charge of the war against ISIS. That seems kind of uh >> You're exactly right. >> It seems like a problem that needs to be fixed. >> Amen. >> I I could talk to you forever. I don't know how much time we have, but that's the next question. What How do we fix the culture of CIA to serve the interests of the American people? Can it be fixed or does it have to be shattered [snorts] and swept away? >> only way it can be fixed is with true,
[2:24:45] robust congressional oversight, which we have not seen since 1982. >> Can we see it when we know the ethics of guys that have to get elected every 2 years? >> No, I don't think so. I mean, Mark Warner, Tom Cotton, come on. These guys? >> Randy Fine? >> Randy Fine? Please. What a joke. It's all a big joke. I I've I've said in podcasts in the past, there was one guy on uh on the Senate Intelligence Committee that I kind of expected a little help from.
[2:25:15] And when I got out of prison, I was invited to dinner at the Greek Ambassador's residence. So, I go and this senator's there, member of the Intelligence Committee. And he comes up to me and he says, he says, "Hey, welcome home. Congratulations. We were really worried about you." And I said, "Oh, come on, Senator. I said, I expected more from you. You of all people, I expected a little bit of support." And he goes, "Look, it took everything I had just to not lose my security clearance. And I said, "Oh, you're afraid of them."
[2:25:46] Now it makes sense to me. And we've never spoken again. >> He's He was never a free man. >> No, never. He's afraid of them. >> You know, one of my favorite stanzas and lines in any poem is in Rudyard Kipling's If. And I was just talking to my son about this and actually talking about you. It is if when all if all men can count on you, but none too much, you're a man. And I said to my son, "Do you know what that Do you understand what that means?" He says, "Yeah, that's your just." That you put justice and truth over friendship and loyalty. I said, "Yes." I
[2:26:18] said, "Now let me ask you a question. If anyone if one person in this world can count on you too much, then can anyone count on you at all?" >> There it is. >> And that's the reality. >> I want to ask a hypothetical question of the folks that are here. This is something that I like to raise at at colleges and universities. Because it's kind of indicative of what every CIA officer has to deal with. Especially if you're a field officer, you're out
[2:26:50] doing operations. So, let's say that you're a CIA case officer in the Middle East. And you've recruited a bonafide terrorist, a bonafide penetration of Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, ISIS, whatever it is. It doesn't matter. You meet with this person once a month in a hotel somewhere in the Middle East. And this person has given you actionable intelligence that you have used to disrupt attacks and save American
[2:27:20] lives, right? He's the real deal. So, you go out to Amman or Cairo to do a meeting and he says to you, "I've been good to you and I've given you everything that you've wanted. So, tonight you're going to do something for me. I'm not giving you any more information until you go out and get me a prostitute. So, I always ask, do you get him the prostitute? Show of hands. Right? Seriously, show Would you get him the prostitute? Yeah, the answer is yeah.
[2:27:52] It's nasty and dirty, but this is the job that we've chosen. You get him the prostitute. What if he asks you for a child prostitute? Well, obviously the answer is absolutely not. Not under any circumstances. But, that's not even the issue. The issue is there are no rules. There's no training class to say, well, you know, you can get him the prostitute, but you can't get him the child prostitute because there's this line. Nobody's going to teach you that.
[2:28:24] So, you have to go into this job, into this life, with your own set of moral principles. And you have to stick with it. Because there's not going to be anybody at the other side of the the other end of the cable at headquarters saying, "Uh, you probably shouldn't do that." Or, "Rule number 125A says yes to the prostitute, but no to the child prostitute." It's all up to you. And so, you know, so many guys and women,
[2:28:54] mostly guys, lose the sense of who they are once they get into this position. And once it's lost, you can't reclaim it. >> Thank you for that. Okay, I want to end on a kind of a happy note. You are record-setting at Cameo right now. >> I know, it's crazy, right? >> is where you you it's a service where you can get a famous person to give someone a birthday wish or something like this. And you are like setting Cameo records. >> all the Cameo records. >> You've broken all the Cameo records. >> [laughter] >> And um when we first we're talking about
[2:29:26] having you on my film, you're like, "I'd love a line in your film." So, and I'm like, "Yeah, quite. I'd love you in my film for your SAG card. You don't need that anymore. You've well blown past that. >> card. >> So, you you how many hours a week are you leaving messages? >> Just answering Cameo requests, I'm doing probably 25 or 30 hours a week. >> So, that's how many Cameos a week? >> I did 900 for the month of March. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so what we want I want to know is
[2:29:57] of all these Cameos what was the sweetest one? >> Uh I've gotten three. I've I've done about 1,950 Cameos so far. >> Okay. >> I do 20 or 30 a day. >> Okay. >> I've gotten three where Well, let me let me back up. About 50% of them are birthday wishes. You know, uh Jimbo's birthday is next Tuesday. I say, "Hey, happy birthday Jimbo. John Kiriakou here. Hope you had a great day, you know, etc."
[2:30:29] So, there's birthday, you know, Mother's Day, Father's Day, whatever. Advice. Pep talk. About 10% are pep talks. So, of the 10% that have been pep talks, three have come back to say that I somehow talked them out of committing suicide. I'm not really sure how I did that. But you know, there are a lot of really hurting people out there. We get so wrapped up in our own lives,
[2:31:00] our own existences, we don't realize how many other people are in pain. There's one girl, she's just one out of almost 2,000 Cameos that I've done. One who sounded like she was in such pain. I said, "Listen." In the Cameo, I said, "We're not supposed to do this, but here's my phone number." >> Wow. >> "Call me." And she called me. Crying, she's 15. She's bulimic. Her parents don't understand her. She
[2:31:30] was going to commit suicide. And I talked her out of it. And um she's called me twice since then. Usually for less than a minute or two. >> Very respectful. >> Very, very respectful. And she said she just she's having a down day and she needs to hear a friendly voice. And that's it. I had another friend. Friend. Um he became a friend. So I get it I get an a message through Facebook. The guy says, "Hi, my name is
[2:32:02] James. And I want to thank you for what you did for the country." So I look at his page and here's picture after picture after picture of him embedded with the Syrian Kurds fighting ISIS. And I was like, "Wow." I said, "Thank you. Thank you for what you did." I said, "The Kurds are heroic. I've loved the Kurds all of my adult life since I first you know started working with the Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq." And we became friends. This guy had the
[2:32:34] most tragic story. His mother was a prostitute. And he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. So never had any idea who his father was. And when he was 17 he he did something really, really stupid. He kidnapped a guy at gunpoint and took him from ATM to ATM forcing him to empty his bank account. And of course he got caught.
[2:33:04] And the judge came down on him like a ton of bricks. Gave him 20 years. And he did the whole 20. Well, he gets out he's 37 years old. He's got a violent felony on his record. Employment is impossible. So he goes into porn. It's the only thing he can do. He acts in porn. And what do you make in porn? I don't know, $150? Who knows? So, he decides he he needs meaning in his life.
[2:33:35] So, he goes to Turkey, crosses the border into Syria, stumbles into these Kurds, takes up arms, and just starts killing ISIS people. He does that for a year, and then comes back out, makes his way back to the United States, Billings, Montana. So, we start talking, and he can't find a job, and I'm a convicted felon, and I have this this uh violent felony, and I don't have any
[2:34:07] education, and he didn't have anything going for him. And I kept telling him, "One day at a time. Go to the local community college. What's a community college class cost? $100? $150? Whatever you're interested in, you know? Whatever Whatever, you know, tickles your fancy, focus on that. Just one day at a time." I'm telling him. Then one day, I get a call on my phone, and it says prison/jail. And it has some Wyoming
[2:34:38] Wyoming area code. I'm like, "What in the world?" So, I answer the phone, and it's him. I said, "What in the world are you doing in jail in Wyoming?" He said, "I got into a fight with my girlfriend, and she wouldn't let me see my son, and I slapped her, and she uh had me arrested." I said, "Geez, James." So, he ends up getting bail, and then decides he's going to commit suicide. So, he goes back home in Billings, Montana, takes a gun from his mother, drives to
[2:35:10] the Walmart parking lot. He's sitting in the car holding the gun, getting ready to kill himself when an off-duty ATF agent pulls into the space next to him to do his grocery shopping. Sees this guy with a gun, pulls his gun, and disarms James. So, I get a call, Billings, Montana County Jail. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. So, I answer. I said, James,
[2:35:41] you're in jail in Billings, Montana now? He says, he's crying. I was going to kill myself. I was in the parking lot at the Walmart. I said, oh my god. He said, I need a I need an attorney. I said, all right, cuz I'm a sucker for a sob story. I always have been. So, I start calling every attorney in Billings, Montana. And I find one that's willing to do it, you know, for a price. So, he gets him out, but felon with a gun is a mandatory minimum of 5 years.
[2:36:12] The The court's are or the prosecutor's asking for 8 years because he had a violent felony, and this is bad. Then he calls me one day, July 4th, 2022, and he said, hey, my sister uh lit an M80, and it blew three of her fingers off, and she was in surgery all day, 14 hours, they reattached her fingers. I said, oh my god, that's terrible, James. I'm so sorry. Tell her I send my best. I'll send her a card. And I said, but you sound you sound
[2:36:42] good. He said, yeah, I feel good. I feel [clears throat] good. Things are going well. I said, great. Okay, good to talk to you. Two days later, his sister calls me. I said, how are your fingers? She said, oh, they're okay. It was my own stupid fault, but they reattached them. I'll recover. And she said, but that's not why I'm calling. I'm calling to tell you James killed himself last night. I said, oh my god. What happened? And she said, um he told their mother he was going for a
[2:37:14] walk. He walked to the neighbor's house or yard. They had a big oak tree. And he strung up a noose and he hung himself. And he left a note. And all it said was, "Please call John and tell him I said I was sorry." And you know, it reminded me of a story. Have any of you heard of the folk singer Pete Seeger? Pete was a giant in my life. Next to my father and my grandfather, no man had as much of an impact on my life as Pete
[2:37:45] Seeger did. And he told me a story one time. There was another folk singer from the '70s, Phil Ochs. Um Phil was as popular as anybody in the '60s and early '70s. But he went on a concert tour in Africa and he was mugged in Africa and the mugger cut his throat. And he recovered, but he was unable to hit high notes after that and he fell into a deep depression. And Pete told me that that he, Pete, was performing at a folk club in Greenwich Village one night
[2:38:16] and the gig ran late. And he was packing up as quickly as he could because he had to literally run to Grand Central Station and catch the last train to Beacon, which is where his home was. And as he's packing up, one of the waitresses Pete, Phil Ochs is on the phone for you. And he said, "Tell Phil I can't talk. I have to run and get the last train to Beacon." And so he said, "Tell him I'll call him tomorrow." And he left and Phil Ochs committed suicide.
[2:38:46] And he said to me, and this was unlike a anything I had ever heard Pete say, he said, "That selfish bastard. I'll never forgive him for what he did. He had no idea how many people he's hurt." And that always stuck in my mind. >> Mhm. >> In your dark days. >> Very well may have. Absolutely. suicide? So you saved your life and you saved a 15-year-old girl's life.
[2:39:17] There [clears throat] it is. So when you were going through all the rough things that you went through and your brother told you this is the best thing that ever happened to your life, he didn't realize it was the best thing that was going to happen to a lot of people's lives. >> Yeah. It's true. We're all here for a reason and it just keeps reminding me that there's always somebody who's suffering more than I am. And the privilege of suffering is you'll be able to use that empathy to help someone else another time. You lose your child to a drunk driver, there's going to come a day where you're helping someone who lost their
[2:39:49] child too. There's that's the empathy is the gift of suffering. >> That's right. >> And so it's interesting that we must have a suffering nation cuz they really identified with you. You really done the whole arc of the hero's journey. You're You know that your call to adventure was not when you thought. It wasn't when you joined CIA. It's when you the moment your adventure began was the moment you said >> And who would have thought? Who could have foreseen that? I never could have. I would have never believed you if you had told me, "Listen, in the next 10 years, this is what's going to happen."
[2:40:20] >> [cough] >> I think when we first met if I would have told you that. Oh well, you didn't believe me. Jenny and I were like, "Look, we're passing on your movie because we are this is a massive studio film. This is the perfect script. It It you wrote it in your life." Like you literally hit each of the points >> [laughter] >> of the monomyth in your life. And then you were discovered by young people. >> Which is the greatest reward. It really is.
[2:40:51] >> You know, when you were you were walking down the street to a book reading and I called you and when I was asking you to do this, I think. I like, "This is kind of an unbelievable opportunity. I don't know [laughter] if you can do this and I thought there was no way you could fit in your schedule. And you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But as you're walking to the book reading, someone you could hear how excited they were >> [laughter] >> to see you, but then you seemed more excited to see thank him. And you said, "If not for you, I could be living out of my
[2:41:23] car. If not for Gen Z, in a way, you would have a whole fight ahead of you." >> Yeah. >> A whole life of battles. >> It's true. It's true. Yeah. The CIA did its darnedest to make sure I could never work again. >> Wah, wah. Didn't work. >> Didn't work. >> I mean, here's how bad things got. And I'm not saying that this is bad. I mean, maybe in the greater scheme of things it's bad, but I was so broke and so unemployable, I had to I had to rent a house with two elderly gay guys
[2:41:55] who were attached to oxygen machines, walking around like smoking cigarettes with their oxygen >> This is in the middle of the night. >> "So, this is my lot in life." >> you watching? Wheel of Fortune? What were they watching? >> know, right? >> I don't know. >> Jeopardy at 7:00 and Wheel of Fortune at 7:30. And I'm sitting there like this. [laughter] Yeah. Like, well, I guess this is the way it's going to be. And then everything exploded. >> But that's what here it was and looks like. It's not uh you know, it's not the Rambo stuff. It's the long drawn out years and years of
[2:42:25] not thinking it's going to get better. >> Mhm. >> Was there a point where you just said, "I'm I'm good. It's going to be like this forever and I can handle it." >> Yeah. It was a conversation I had with my sister. I said, "You know, I don't mind being poor. I've actually become accustomed to being poor. And um I said, "The only thing is I don't want to die alone." And I especially don't want to be sick for a whole long time before dying alone. My sister's 5 years younger than I am and she's very, very kind and
[2:42:56] empathetic. She's my best friend, really. And she said, "Don't be ridiculous. You're going to You're going to live in my house." She said, "The whole The whole basement, it's this beautiful apartment." They have an enormous house in Bedford, New Hampshire. And I said, "Great. I get to live in my sister's basement for my remaining days. Thanks, Tina." >> [laughter] >> You know, my organization runs a shelter in Juarez, Mexico >> Even better. >> for migrant workers for for migrant unwed migrant unaccompanied women with
[2:43:28] children. So, we have a shelter there. And the shelter director [laughter] said, "If I have in my old days, if I have nowhere to go, they'll let me in the shelter in Juarez. You can come to the shelter in Juarez with me." No, okay. So, I want to end on this. And then we'll go to questions. And then we'll decide with the audience. I don't know if they want to be in the in the video or not, but um I want to pay a Cameo. How much does a Cameo cost? I want to buy a Cameo right now. >> Hey, thank you. You know, the algorithm changes the price every 15 minutes based on how uh >> how much demand >> cash so we don't have to share with the website. No, we'll kick it to you. No,
[2:43:58] so this is my Cameo, right? I want to do it right now. >> Here's my Cameo. To Gen Z, I want you to give them a Cameo pep talk to a generation that they want to be creative writers, they want to be filmmakers, they want to be lawyers, and they're looking at AI and that's gone. They want to have marriage and love and family, but that seems impossible. So, I want you to give Gen Z your Cameo pep talk. >> Yeah. Okay, Gen Z. John Kiriakou here. Listen, I know how hard life is right now. You're seeing changes coming quicker
[2:44:29] than we've ever seen really since the since the advent of the industrial age, and that's not necessarily a good thing. So, what you have to do is grab life by the horns and live it according to your standards. Don't let AI put you out of business. Don't let internet porn take away a chance at a at a beautiful relationship or marriage. You have to grab life by the horns and live it according to your own rules. So, do what makes you happy, do what allows you to contribute to society, and
[2:45:00] you're going to live a happy life. All the best. >> That was awesome. John, I want to thank you. You know, um I wanted to just thank you so much for your example. You personally inspired my son. You're inspiring a generation. Thank you very much, brother. >> Thank you. >> All right, guys. Jason Jones here, back at my studio. What an incredible opportunity to interview John Kiriakou. Couldn't do my outro after the interview because, as you can see, we had a lot of folks, had to mingle, and it was kind of loud. So, I just want to say, thank you for listening to the end to the end of this
[2:45:31] show. And if you want to hear more, we have about an hour and a half of Q&A with John and the audience. But, that is only going to be available to paid subscribers. It's $8 a month. To paid subscribers for the Jason Jones show Substack. It is in the show notes. So, click through there, become a paid subscriber, and next week we're going to release the hour and a half of Q&A. And a lot of these questions came from Gen Z, and they had some incredible questions, and John's answers were