[00:00] such disgusting monsters, you know, that that we but retribution is the is at the bottom of our list is at the bottom of my list. The top of my list is any single child [music] getting the help that it is going to need to transcend the horror that none of us will ever ever be able to even begin to understand
[00:32] of of what's [music] been done to them in Palestine since 1948. I'm not just talking about since O September the 7th, 2023. [music] I'm talking about 80 years of mon of a monster, a rampant raging ethno [music] and religio supremacist monster. [music] Hi, I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. It seems like things just
[01:02] get worse and worse and worse by the day in Palestine, specifically in Gaza. But there are problems in the West Bank as well. The United Nations declared that there is an actual famine taking place in Gaza. A famine. Men, women, children, the elderly, the sick are starving to death in a country that has plenty of food for everybody. The Israeli government just won't allow that food to reach the people who need it the most. This is a war crime. It's a crime against humanity. It's a form of genocide. And that's not John saying it.
[01:34] That's the United Nations saying it. That's the International Court of Justice saying it. Well, we're going to talk about that issue and others in the region with a personal hero of mine. Roger Waters is one of the co-founders of the rock group Pink Floyd. He's one of the four or five biggestselling musical acts in the history of the planet. But Roger has used his fame, his notoriety, and even his money to support human rights, civil rights, and civil
[02:05] liberties. And he's been especially concerned about the people of Gaza. Roger, thank you so much for joining us. It's always such a pleasure to have you. >> I'm very happy to be here. Good to see you again. >> Good to see you. I'd like to start with the situation on the ground in Gaza if we could. There's plenty of food, of course, but the Israeli government simply won't allow it into the Gaza Strip. This is a war crime, but all we see is international hand ringing. Why is food not getting into Gaza? And can countries other than Israel and the US
[02:36] force it to happen? Countries could if it was a part of their what they consider to be their mandate. What's what's becomes increasingly interesting about this is the disconnect between what we have always been led to believe about governments particularly western liberal dem democratic so-called countries and the way they work and the whether or not they're supposed to express their opinions and feelings and political
[03:06] inclinations of the populace or not and so on and so forth. And so this is a real awakening for pe people of I'm 81 years old and I always thought that after the second world war we had decided a that we didn't want to commit genocide like the Nazis did between 1933 and 1945. That was one thing and that and and that also we were going to agree which we did on December the 10th 1948 and a basic requirement to observe basic human rights as a matter of
[03:38] international law all over the world. So I grew up believing that that was reality and now I know it's not. Okay. So, so looking into this first of all, every every day that we observe what's happening to our brothers and sisters in Palestine and more specifically to the children in Gaza, the innocents, the absolute pure innocents in Gaza who are being murdered on a daily basis by the state of Israel with the absolute
[04:10] complicit agreement and applause of the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, France, Holland, blah blah blah everybody with the possible exceptions of the Spanish and maybe you know the South Africans and so on. So but that's a separate conversation about the ICJ and what went on and what didn't go on and what they have and haven't found. Fascinating by the way that the Ugandan judge it turns out is a raging Christian Zionist who believe whose belief in God
[04:40] trumps absolutely all feelings for other human beings. she is going to go on lying and to and and uh not observing international notwithstanding the fact that she's the vice president of the ICJ in the H because God has told her that end times are coming and she has to play her part. F me. I nearly used dropped the fbomb then because you can't make this [ __ ] up, can you? and that she was they were 15 to1 or 14 to1 of voting you know with
[05:13] the ICJ back then in January it's now August this is 7 months ago it's incredible and yet the genocide continues unabated and it's now reaching its climax where they're murdering everyone in the West Bank as well as everyone in Gaza and they're completely open about it and our governments are all going yep carry on you're just depending yourselves. Bull [ __ ] It's obvious complete nonsense. It's an absolute abrogation of everything that
[05:45] we thought we stood for. So, so here we find ourselves waking up every morning wiping away the tears and wondering what to do today. My today I'm going to talk to John Kiryaku on the telly and we're going to have a conversation. Nobody will take any notice obviously because what are we driven by? We're driven by we we live in a world the western world. I can't talk about the Chinese or the Russians for anybody. I'm not I don't speak Russian
[06:16] so I don't feel you know Gilbert Dro obviously does speak Russian and so does Ray Mc you know Ry speaks Russian and various I don't so I can't really claim to have much of a insight into what goes in Russia but from my observation and what I hear ordinary Russian people saying in translation it feels to me as they're very much like me and John Kiryako and the rest of us and all of those to go, "Hold on a minute. We're human beings.
[06:46] This isn't what we want. Why is it?" It's because it's what they want. It's what Jeff Bezos wants. It's what Mark Zucker wants. It's what Bill Gates wants. It's what the ruling class want. They want to maximize the bottom line for their shareholders and for themselves. And they want to go on getting richer and richer and richer. It's not enough for them that they're worth $200 billion. They want to be worth a trillion dollars. They want they would actually prefer it if there were only 10 of them
[07:18] in the world and they owned everything and the rest of us were slaves. And that is what is going on. So the scales are falling from our eyes. We always believed them when they said never again. But they didn't mean it. And these thugs in Israel, this appalling, murderous, filthy, disgusting, racist, apartate state, the state of Israel has failed. It is a failed state and we all know it.
[07:50] All of us know it. Ordinary people all over the world know it. The the governments are not going to do anything about this at all. possibly within the political arena. We saw one glimmer of light yesterday in England and that was Jeremy Corbyn starting a new party that was going to supposedly um represent the feelings of the working class in the UK who as we know before the invasion of Iraq in 2003
[08:21] took to the streets 2 million of them and they were part of they were part of a demonstration in March 2003 to stop the invasion. of Iraq by over 20 million people worldwide took to the streets going, "This is insane." And it was insane. And it was all based on lies, just like all foreign policy is always based on lies. Particularly the foreign policy of uh of the United States Empire for instance. before that to go back I
[08:53] made a speech to um uh there was an anniversary of Yaltta 80 years before it well 80 years since Yaltta which was in in February I think 1945 and and I there was a conference and they asked me to speak so I made it and I said you know it may be that Gaza what's happening in Gaza is actually providing us with the pool of narcissus and when we look into it we see our own reflection refction I say and the reflection shows us
[09:24] particularly we who are British the British Empire was post the Romans probably the most evil empire that there has been in the whole history of empires and we've slaughtered more people than the this new bunch of thugs in the North America will ever dream of except they do have nuclear weapons now and they do look as if they're going to use them and they are the only country that's ever used nuclear weapons as we know because we've just had the anniversary of of Hiroshima
[09:56] from that you know it's weird but um VJ night is my earliest memory. I looked >> oh my >> I looked out of a window in a little council house on Cherenton Road in Cambridge and I told my mother this and she stared at me I when I wasn't very old when I told her the memory and she said that's amazing. I said why is that amazing? She said, "Because you're describing VJ night." Cuz I said, "There were people. There was a bonfire and people were happy and they were dancing and there was a brown sofa and a dog and
[10:28] a funny door that went to an upstairs room that looked like a piece of cheese cut off." And I described it very well. I I was less I wasn't going to be two for another 3 months cuz I was born in September 1943 and this was in whenever it was July. No, August August 13th. I think it was 1945. Yeah. >> Anyway, I digress and I will I tend to digress and I tend to ramble >> because it's the only thing that um
[10:59] stops me bursting into tears, frankly. >> That's right. Because >> I I want to ask I want to ask your opinion on something that I've noticed the Israeli government has actually been very successful with and that is convincing so many people especially in the United States and in Western Europe that this whole problem began on October 7th. They say that their goal is to destroy Hamas. Well, Hamas for all intents and purposes no longer exists, at least not as a fighting force. And besides, even before October 7th, how
[11:31] many planes, how many tanks and artillery pieces did did Hamas have? >> None. >> None. So the the Israeli goal here seems clear to me. It's it's ethnic cleansing, which is to push all Palestinians out of Gaza. >> Yeah. >> Now, that is it's clearly obviously illegal. It's a war crime. It's a crime against humanity. And yet the the self-described most civilized countries in the world are just standing by watching it happen. And you know that
[12:02] the same thing is happening in the West Bank at the same time. How can how can those of us who are not in positions of authority, people like you or me, >> how can we fight against this? >> I'm going to tell you now. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm going to just open this up here. over there some uh let me just Yeah, I I recently made um I I've been making a new song and it's slowly escaping. >> All right. And it's called Sumud
[12:34] and when I we could play it if I if I we could play it or I will send it to you. You can play it on a future program if you want because it's beginning to escape now. Um I'm going to just read you the beginning of it so you understand where it is. At the beginning of it uh there is a voice over to the introduction and and it says there is a word in Arabic sumud it means steadfast perseverance particularly in resistance to the
[13:04] occupation of your homeland. And then it goes on to and it's a poem about how all I want and I dream of is when voices join in harmony. And I begin to describe what it might be like if we all sang together as a choir in resistance to the infamy of whatever. So that's the first verse. The second verse uh drives drives them completely insane. They tried to have all my tours cancelled. I I I did this is not a drill in 2022 in North
[13:36] America and Mexico and then all over Europe and then all over South America >> and um there's a song that that I did in it called the powers that be and during that song I mentioned the names among many others of Shireen Abuaklay who as you know but some of your audience may not uh was a a Palestinian American um [clears throat] journalist who was murdered on the outskirts of Janine two years ago now. Um, so she and the other name that I mentioned which is
[14:06] what drove them crazy is Anne Frank who is you also know was a was a much younger uh woman. She was like 13year-old about that age um Jewish girl who was murdered in Holland by the Nazis uh in 1943. And they have one thing in common. And oh oh and the other name that I mentioned at the very beginning is Rachel Cy who was an American protester who was murdered in 2002 I believe very
[14:37] very early on long before I became involved in any of this. Run over by an Israeli bulldozer trying to prevent the demolition of a some Palestinian person's home by the Israelis. And so that so that's that. Okay. So and I won't read all of the stuff. So that's that. There's it's a list of martyrs. The second thing, but but in at the end of this verse, the second verse of the thing, it says there's Iman Alhams and Anne Frank and Sophie Skull and blah blah. It says, "Help me to open their
[15:08] eyes from up in the penthouse. We must all look like ants to them. Wake up, [ __ ] We are women and men. Well up, unashamed, my bleeding heart. Give me an Oh, yeah. Join us in harmony." So I'm imploring imploring people to join the choir and make a loud noise. The last verse talks about it says then across the great divide come men and women unafraid to dash in loss their bracelets at the wall bleeding hearts like you and me. All right but there are billions of us
[15:41] all over the world. Uh and it says um when voices join in harmony and we turn the final page when man evolves beyond the crass and reason comes of age and then there's a list and dogma and witchcraft and can't and propaganda and palanteer and lo heed and groomman and chevron and excellent fiser and the oligarchs and misers say we're sorry that we done it mummy we only done it for the [ __ ] money. Oh yeah, just for
[16:14] the money. Oh yeah, just for the cash. And it goes on uh it says, "When voices join in harmony, we will make a joyful sound. We will follow our own moral compass. We won't let their slight of hand trump us. We'll find 10,000 new voices in every crowd. When all those new voices join us in harmony, standing shouldertosh shoulder from the river to the sea, people from every nation will hear that joyful sound. Ordinary people just
[16:47] standing their ground and together these ordinary people together they will turn this ship around. Okay. And that's sort of so that is the that the message of my song is that this will not be changed by K star or Donald Trump or any of them. This will be changed in the end by billions of ordinary people with hearts and souls and empathy
[17:18] standing shouldertosh shoulder in face of this obvious criminally insane policy. at the policy of the Israeli government which says God told us that he's behind us and we should kill everybody else on earth because it belongs to us and and that it's good and that might that might should mean right and that whoever's got the most weapons should just steal everything and rape and plunder and
[17:50] there should be no international law. That's the why United States never signed up to the Treaty of Rome. They don't want international law. They don't believe. You know, when I was 15 years old, I was a a ordinary grammar school in England and I once spoken a debate. It's the only time I've ever stood up and debated anything. And and I can remember it now. And it said, "This house believes in the idea of world government." Well, that's what the Hag is about.
[18:22] That's what the rule of international law is about. It's about the whole world and all the human beings on it being governed by a system of international law that we are all required to obey. Well, the Trumps and the Snowmers and the Netanyahus and the smoke riches, they don't believe in any of that [ __ ] They say, "No, we believe in killing people and stealing their land. That's what we believe in. And we always did. And and it's and it didn't start on
[18:55] October the 7th. We've believed this since the Mayflower landed in the 1640s in North America. That was our Zion. And we killed everybody. There's a very few left. I know them. They're friends of mine. I'm very close with the Shinikok nation where I live in in northeastern United States of America. So this is very very recent history. This only goes back to 300 years. It's a blink in the history of this old star
[19:28] that we call the sun. Anyway, you remind me of a of a story that you told several years ago. We were both speaking at an event here in Washington for the Washington Report and you talked about approaching entertainers who had been very active in the anti-aparttheid movement and were and were instrumental in many ways in bringing down a parttheid >> yet they didn't they didn't want to get involved uh with Palestine and their message to you I remember was actually
[19:58] consistent. It was that the issue was complicated. Yeah, >> that was the the word that they kept using and you said actually it's not very complicated. >> It's pretty straightforward where innocent people are dying for no reason. >> And so here we are 3 years later. Has that changed in any way? >> No, they're still they're still trottting out exactly the same [ __ ] They're still saying that all of this is just a response to the heinous attack by Hamas on October the 7. No, the attack
[20:29] by Hamas on October the 7th is a natural reaction. It's part of Sumud, you know, which is a perseverance in the resistance to the occupation of Palestinian land that has been going on since the Nakba which started on the 10th of May in 1948. So there's nothing new about this. October the 7th is an absolute side issue. It's not not is it just completely natural and normal that the indigenous people of an occupied
[21:00] land will resist and they will use military force if they are able to or or if they can. And it's not just that they will do that. It's that they have every right to do that. They're required morally and even by under international law to res to respond. they have absolute right to respond militarily to the occupation. So it's all be none of this has ever been compliment complicated. You know, if you go back to 1917 and the Balfa declaration, which is
[21:32] only a sort of public letter from from the foreign secretary of the then government or whatever he whatever Belfer's position was in the government to a banker, a Jewish banker, albeit Lord Rothschild, saying um we look favor, her majesty's or his majesty's government look favorably upon um the creation of a homeland for the Jewish people in the but let's not forget Yeah, the letter the Balfa declaration is only that long, >> right? >> And the second sentence says always
[22:04] being understood that the civil and legal and what religious rights of the indigenous people of Palestine are not affected detrimentally in any way. Whoa. We forgot that bit about the Balflow Declaration, didn't we? So Balfa didn't say, "Oh, and this government looks favorably upon you going in and murdering them all and stealing their washing machines and TV sets and all their olive trees and their streams and
[22:34] their mountains and their access to the Mediterranean Sea, for instance, and all the rest of it, and destroying them down to the L and doing the Amalcch thing, which Netanyahu is so keen on bringing up and will kill all their pigs and goats and sheep and all their swine and blah and on and on and on. It didn't say that. I'm not saying that the Balfur declaration was a good thing. It was a terrible idea. >> Terrible. >> Yeah. >> And it always will be. any colonial
[23:06] notion like that of a people going into a populous a populated seriously populated country with its own in let's not forget as well that for hundreds of years hundred thousands of years the people in that somewhat desert but also very fertile in some places had been living together with their different Abrahamic religions including Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim religion for hundreds of year. Well, at least 2000
[23:36] since since Christianity was in its infancy, which was 2000. All been living cheek by jail. Yeah. All right. The crusaders went in there in the 15th century or the 14th or wherever it was, and did quite a lot of murder and mayhem cuz they were demented and they came from England for goodness sake. And they were in cahoots with a bunch of bankers and people. It's very like Balfur and Rothchild in its own weird way. >> But but nevertheless, nobody has ever denied
[24:09] that it was when when you look back even early photographs pre- Nakba of what Palestine was like. Bustling streets, busy, busy, busy, busy. It was a kind very important uh gateway between uh Western Europe and the Orian. There's a very spe it's it's no surprise that there's been this much blood shed about that particular piece of real estate. But the fact that we're still doing it
[24:39] now is insane and we all know it. All of us in the choir and we are going to stand shouldertosh shoulder. We ordinary people John as you and me you and I and Rebecca know we are the ordinary people standing shoulder from the river to the sea. We will turn this ship around because we are right and they are wrong. And it's not just we might be right at 514. No, we're right 99 to1. It's got
[25:10] to, you know, they talk about the 1%. It may be that only 1% are actually criminally insane like Donald Trump and Netanyahu and Kama and that the other 99% of us are reasonably sane and good and you know well empathetic human beings who care for all our brothers and sisters irrespective of their religion or nationality or ethnicity or anything else cuz we're all you're human beings and we would never
[25:41] and we could never ever ever drop a bomb, a single bomb somewhere where there was a child that we might damage even if we only damaged them mentally cuz it's a loud bang and [gasps] and they spend the rest of their lives scared out of their skins because that's what we've done to them. Why? Because we're greedy. Donald, you are a greedy thug. Kama, you are a greedy thug. Macarron, you're they're all greedy thugs.
[26:14] They should all be in looney bins. And we the people should be using some of our hard earned money to pay taxes to have nice nurses and strong men in white coats to look after them and make sure they don't do any more damage cuz they're crazy. And we all know it. That's the sick thing is it's so obvious that they are [clears throat] crazy. Roger, I want to ask you about the reception that you've received around
[26:44] the world for your your activism on human rights and especially on Palestine. There's a huge swath of the public here in the United States where you have saintly status, including in my house, but you've faced real push back, especially in Germany. My own humble opinion, and we we talked about this at the beginning of the of the conversation, is that the Germans are are knee-jerk pro-Israel because they're ashamed of their Nazi past. Yeah. >> And they're unable to control themselves and going too far in the opposite direction. But >> they are supporting the Israeli
[27:15] government in policies that in many ways mirror the policies of Germany in the 1930s and the 1940s. >> Yeah. >> Tell tell us what you face as you travel and speak out on these issues. What what are what are people saying to you? Well, they try and cancel my they try and they try and cancel the shows and they use lawfare, warfare, anything they can. Uh in Germany for instance, no newspaper will ever speak to me or nobody will ever interview me or nobody.
[27:45] I'm ab I am verboten. I um there was one thing Deutsch Deutsch Sait one newspaper did it and it was very slanted but at least he was called Alexander Gorov was the name of the journalist at least he spoke to me and they did sort of print it but you know I write in my in my memoir I write about being on the top floor of a hotel in Berlin I can't remember the name of the hotel it has a beautiful cathedral next door
[28:16] to it with a beautiful cop copper domed roof. But in front of my room looking down, there's a piece of glass in the middle of the cobblestones. And it's actually a memorial to the book burning that took place in September 1933. I think it was September, maybe it was earlier, maybe it was even May 1933 where they and it's on the place where in that particular cobbled square in Berlin, they the Nazis burned a huge pile of books in front of. So, it's
[28:46] fascinating that the other way that they try to deal with me, and this happened more in South America later on in 2023, they won't let me stay in a hotel. >> What? >> Yeah. No, seriously, you can't stay in a any hotel in in Buenosares in Argentina. I I I couldn't I only went I only went to Argentina on my last tour which was the Tinad tour and this was have been in November 2023 so it's after October the
[29:17] 7th I had to fly in borrow an apartment from some like Michael you told cuz I couldn't stay in a hotel anywhere and then leave immediately after the second gig before the so I stayed one night in Buenos. This is a town where a few years before I had done nine consecutive soldout shows, breaking all records in the River Plate Stadium, 65,000 people a night for nine shows, you know, and at
[29:47] the end of night I went, I'm not doing anymore. This is crazy. But it was also very, you know, so I I was the most popular artist by far and I couldn't get a room in a hotel because the Israeli lobby said, "No, we want him dead." No, he there is no room at the end for this guy. He doesn't believe in murdering people and stealing their land. Well, we do. So, >> you know, and how ironic is it that Germany was the home to so many escaped Nazis after the Second World War?
[30:18] >> You mean Argentina? H I'm sorry, Argentina. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That I I believe that the Israeli hierarchy, and there's some circumstantial or even physical evidence to support this, is that they're looking at at Patagonia now as to where they may have to go when Israel finishes. They are all going to have prices on their heads and they're going to and they're looking for places to go. And that South America is one of the things that they're looking at. I mean,
[30:50] I can smile. I mean, I the idea that Smrich and Bengavir and Netanyahu will end up in, you know, living in Argentina actually makes me happy so long as they're not in the Holy Land. I don't care where they end up frankly that because they are such disgusting monsters, you know that that we but retribution is the is at the bottom of our list. It's at the bottom of my list.
[31:20] The top of my list is any single child getting the help that it is going to need to transcend the horror that none of us will ever ever be able to even begin to understand of of what's been done to them in Palestine since 1948. I'm not just talking about since October the 7th, 2023. I'm talking about 80 years of mon
[31:54] of a monster, a rampant raging ethno and religio supremacist monster tearing the throats out of their young and throwing the remains to one side and kill them. Kill them all. We are the chosen ones. And you might say people say, "Oh, he's being antiatic. How dare he talk about this? It's not me. They are the ones who claim that they're chosen by Wahi or whatever his name is
[32:24] and that they have they are so superior that they have completely different laws for them. I often say, you know, it's like when Algra Petro took me all over the West Bank in 2007. We I we went everywhere and and she was working for UNRA at the time. I think Unur Yeah, I think so. So, we were in UN vehicles and they were practically spitting on us just cuz we were in UN vehicles and but what am I trying to say here? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember her saying to me, I
[32:54] said, "Well, at least they have nice roads. This is in the West Bank." And she said, "Yeah, but these roads are only to get to the settlements. The local people aren't allowed to drive on these." I said, "Don't be stupid." She said, "No, you can't drive on these roads. you can because you're a visiting British pop star, but local people, you can't use these roads unless you're Jewish. And I said, well, so it's like, imagine this. If you're American, imagine you arrive at the New Jersey Turnpike and go to get on through the booth or whatever and and you have to
[33:24] show your papers and they go, "Oops, you're not a Christian. You can't go on this road." What? Don't be [ __ ] dar. That's absurd. Well, that's the law. Well, that's the law. You can't go on this road unless you're Jewish. What? No. No. I don't believe you. This is absolute nonsense. This is why we fought the Second World War against the Nazis, you morons, is so we wouldn't have to deal with any of this uber and unmentioned bollocks ever again cuz it's nonsense. I mean, if we take it further,
[33:56] we now know because of work done by biochemists in the um in the 1990s, we know all about the human genome. We now know that we're all African. >> Dopey. >> That's right. >> Just cuz he looks Chinese and you don't and you're darker skinned than he is, doesn't mean we're not all homo sapiens. We are. We share the same DNA. We are all cousins. We look different cuz we went and lived in different bits of the globe and we intermarried with the ones who were living near us.
[34:27] And the climate was different. And so we we we developed in different ways, but as far as we know and we we're pretty good at this stuff now. That is why human beings some human beings look different than others. And so the it's all you know the it's all absolute nonsense. But I and I think for my part as well I get I come under attack a lot because I'm an atheist. And so I I sometimes put down the holy scriptures,
[34:57] you know, saying you shouldn't take this [ __ ] too seriously. Nobody knows where it came from. It was all written or certainly all the gospel, the Christians [ __ ] was all written at least 150 years after any of it took place. So it's all a bit of hearsay and what happened. And you know how bad we are. We all know we know now because we have scientific proof of this that eyewitness reports of things are totally unreliable. Even somebody who was there nearly always gets it wrong.
[35:28] And and the human brain will make all kinds of [ __ ] up just because it's convenient or because it's funnier or because it's more, you know, helpful to them and their side of an argument or what what happened. Well, I think so. It's very Montipython in its own weird way. So, but so we we do we are lucky enough now to know an awful lot about uh genetics and DNA. I mean, if you think the double helix thing that came out of Cambridge University when I was a
[36:00] teenager, we didn't know anything about any of that in the 40s or the 50s, nothing. And then suddenly Wilson and whoever the other bloke was, >> yes, >> you know, discovered it. >> They discovered it. They discovered it and they went, "Here's the model and this is what it looks like and this is what it does." And we all went, "Wow, that's fascinating." And it is and it's great to know. But human knowledge is only I often like to think of it, human knowledge is only like it's like a dock
[36:30] being pushed out into a limitless ocean that goes further than we can possibly imagine. We'll never know everything about everything. I think knowing what little we do about the universe and the limit and the limits or non-limits of space and blah blah blah blah, we must at least now know enough to know that we can't know everything and we never will. But all this stuff about this god or that god or the other god is all sort of guessing. Anthropology and anthropological
[37:01] um investigations into tells us a lot because people who lived in deep valleys they have a completely different religion than people who lived in deserts and could see lots of stars and all of that. You know, it depends who you are and where you are, what you figure out and the stories that you make up in order to fill in the g that huge gap. So, I I know I'm wondering I'm I'm wandering off case now because that none of this has Okay, none of this has anything to do with the fact that it
[37:32] there's a reason why we get addicted to Tik Tok of saving animals trapped in bobbed, which we do. I do. I know that's why I doom scroll sometimes is because I'm addicted >> to seeing love being expressed for baby animals, plant. It doesn't really matter what it is because we're capable of it and because it's kind of attractive to it. So, um so we s we sort of know that we can be
[38:03] good if good means helping each other. So somebody comes knocking at the door and you they're hungry, you feed them. >> If they're cold, you give them shelter. These are the basic human rights that you and I believe all our brothers and sisters. They should have free firstly they should have freedom to life. Nobody should ever be allowed to kill even one of us. Never. Ever. Ever. Rule one. Funnily enough, it's in the holy scripts as well. It's called the sixth
[38:34] commandment in the Abrahamic. Thou shalt not kill. That's first thing. But then there's a right to food, shelter, and possibly education maybe >> medical medical care. Let's call those the five basics. You know, we believe in that. I believe in it. I I I think that's absolutely that is the platform upon which I stand >> and it's not complicated and it's very small. It is the universal declaration
[39:04] of human rights made by the fledgling United Nations on the 10th of December in Paris in 1948. That is my platform and I defy anybody on the other side of any political argument to stand up against me in a debate and say no that that's not important. You're wrong about that, Roger. Well, what is more important than that then? And and there is no answer to that except this. Well, the answer
[39:35] actually is that some of the animals is Orwell got it right in Animal Farm. Some of the animals are more equal than others. We Mr. Netanyahu is way more important than him over there cuz he's an Arab and I'm a Jew and God tells me that I'm far more important. So, you're wrong. There should absolutely universal human rights is the worst idea that anyone has ever
[40:05] had and that's what they believe. >> Yeah, unfortunately they do. I have one one final question for you. It's something that I struggle with a lot. Um and this is how you've had to confront um these specious accusations of anti-semitism. So many people all over the world conflate anti-semitism with anti-ionism. And indeed, I was talking to an Israeli man, a young Israeli man this past weekend, and he told me that in the school system
[40:36] in Israel, they are actually taught to accuse anybody who criticizes Israel in any way uh to accuse them of of anti-semitism. How should we confront this? What advice would you give? Listen to Nurret Ped Elhanan who's a friend of mine. She teaches this in university in Jerusalem. She teaches her main thesis has been how uh school books in Israel are set up to create Nazis. That's what they're for.
[41:10] It's a exact parallel with uh with Germany in in the 1930s and 1940s. So, um, yeah, it's actually there's no conversation to be had really because we're 100% right and they're 100% wrong. And if they can't see, you can't you cannot tell a raging Christian Zionist, you know, uh, Mike Huckabe is a perfect example that he's wrong, that his reading of the Bible is nonsense.
[41:42] No, Jesus isn't coming back down. And he's not going to take your hand and Mike Pence's and flatter off into heaven with Jesus with Mike Huckabe and Mike Pence. Can you? Poor Jesus. Oh my god. Imagine spending all eternity with Mike Huckabe and Mike Pence. Oh, well, obviously he's not going to do that. And and it's nonsense. It's obviously complete insane nonsense. But when you live in small communities out in the Midwest, you sometimes be but start
[42:13] talking in tongues and believe that being bitten by snakes is a good thing and all that crap. It's it's Yeah, it's complete nonsense. Obviously, it's for people who can't read, who don't read books except the Bible. You know it this is this is the same people who ducked witches back in Salem in the you know 17th century or the 16th it's not it's all it's crazy nonsense we all know it
[42:43] but they still believe it sadly and they can do an enormous amount of damage. Now, why they all do it, we would need to ask Gabbor mate, you know, I I've got a lot of time for Gabbor because a because of his his background as a Holocaust survivor and growing up in Hungary and so, you know, his um being exposed to Stalinism and all that bad stuff as well early early in his life. But he his all the work that Gabbor has done uh on childhood trauma I think is
[43:16] fundamentally important to all of us and to understanding why Christ imagine what Netanyahu's young life must have been like growing up in Brooklyn. We don't hear much about it but he it he could not have turned into this monster without there being defining. I'd love to hear what Gabos's theor Gabbor Mate's theory would be about Netanyahu, not to mention Bengavir and Smootri and the others and and people like Ron Durma.
[43:48] You know, I was having a conversation many many what 30 or 40 30 years ago I maybe not quite that with another Ron. What the hell was his name? Ron, he was very very rich. He's recently lost all his money. um Pearlman, his name was Ron Pelman and he owned his mother I think left him a cosmetics company. So he owned a huge cosmetics anyway lived out here for my sins a number of marriages ago. I went to a party once at his house or something and
[44:20] he was you know well I don't want to speak ill of him because I hardly knew him except he was very very wealthy and that doesn't usually do do you anyway one night the phone rang and it was him and he said I want you to speak to the other Ron so I went Rono and before I could somebody and it was Ron Durma who is now I don't know what he is in the current government in Israel but he he tried to bend my ear to persuade me that I was making a terrible mistake in speaking out against Israel at the 20
[44:52] years ago or whatever. >> But I thought it was fascinating and they have tried from time to time. They've tried to get at me in all kinds of ways to try and deviate from from my path >> and I and and I you know I always go I go it's my platform's tiny. It's just the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Either you believe in it or you don't. I do, you don't. That's why you won't let me stay in the hotel because you hate the idea that human rights even exist. You don't want human
[45:25] right. I do. I do. So that's at least the line is clear. It's a clear line and it's drawn in the sand and I know that's what it is. Donald Trump doesn't believe in human rights. Joe Biden didn't believe. Camala Harris, none of the politicians with the possible exception, you know, of Rashida Talib and maybe Elan Omar and maybe one or two white blo as well believe in human rights, but very few and they don't and very very few. So, so it's a huge issue. Should we
[45:57] take this seriously? Do we what about international law? Do should we have international Yes, please. Yes, please. And they go, not really. other countries should do as we tell them, otherwise we'll kill them. That's a much better system. Uh anyway, >> indeed, >> I'm rambling again. >> Well, that's okay. Roger, I want to thank you again for doing this. Such a treat. Roger Waters is one of the most successful singer songwriters on the planet as both a founding member of Pink
[46:29] Floyd and a solo act. But even more importantly, he is one of the clearest voices in the [music] world in defense of human rights and uh and civil rights and civil liberties for the Palestinian People.