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[00:00] You know, America's 250th birthday is coming up. That's going to be a big cake. And now who's who's even going to blow out the candles? I wonder. Probably maybe Thomas Jefferson will come down from the clouds and huff and puff a few out. Maybe Betsy Ross or Frederick Douglas. I don't know. Somebody is going to come on down and just huff and puff them cake candles out. Happy 250th America. And an iconic summer like this deserves an iconic drink. I'm talking

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[01:02] Mountain Dew, an American original. Tasting great since 48. Look for Americ.com. That's mountaind.com. Today's guest is an author. Uh he's a speaker. He's a former CIA officer who's also known for being a whistleblower in the CIA's use of torture. He has a new book coming out called The Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics, and

[01:33] Techniques. Today's guest is Mr. John Kiryaku. Shine on me and I will find a song. I'll be singing. >> Yeah. I applied for a presidential pardon. >> You you applied for a uh a presidential pardon? >> Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I I brought a couple of letters. I

[02:04] >> I hope you don't >> Long as you don't meet me. If I sign him, it's not going to help anything. I'm just [laughter] telling you that. Oh, okay. I was gonna ask if I was gonna ask if you thought it would be helpful. I got uh >> Did you really? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, okay. Dang. I was joking. >> Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking to Tulsi Gabbert on Friday. Did I tell you that? >> Oh, nice. Her husband just went into surgery today. I saw me with her yesterday. >> She's great. >> Yeah, Tulsi Gabbard. She seems um she's there's just something about her that seems genuine to me >> and and that's why they tried to destroy

[02:34] her. Is that is that what you think is going on with her right now? >> That's why the Democrats tried to destroy her. I really do. >> But even right now, I mean, she's just taken a leave. I know it's for her husband's health. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Oh, yeah. Headed into surgery this morning. >> Oh, is that what it says? >> Yeah. She tweeted or she uh >> Instagram. Yeah. >> Yeah. Do you think cuz she's kind of like And she just took a break. She took a complete break from politics. >> Yeah. You remember when she was running as a Democrat, >> every time she would inch up in the polls, the DNC would change the rules

[03:05] for participating in the next debate. >> So, they would do it just one or two percentage points out of her reach every single time because they were threatened by her message. She just wouldn't get with their program. >> She's always seemed very um like she has her own >> Oh, she was definitely independent. >> Independent. That's what it is. She's always seemed very independent. Um well, they did the same thing with Bernie Sanders. They did exactly the same thing with Bernie Sanders. >> So, I guess what my my question would be like, you know, and I pro I I can't remember if I asked Bernie this or not,

[03:35] but why would you stay in a party that you know at a certain point is not >> that's cheating you? Yes. And you know, the Democrats did something in um after the 1972 election, which I think people don't pay anywhere near enough attention to. Nobody at the DNC wanted George McGovern to be the 1972 nominee. He was the most popular at the time, especially among young people, but he was um he was the weakest nationwide and he ended up

[04:06] losing 49 states. But, you know, it's a party of the people, right? If the people want George McGovern as the nominee, then George McGovern should be the nominee. And they didn't let him become the nominee. No, they let him become the nominee and then as soon as he lost the race, they instituted this this thing called superdelegates. So if you are a member of the house, a member of the Senate, a governor, a a lieutenant governor, a state party director, a state committee chairman, you're automatically made a delegate to the convention. Well, there are like

[04:37] 1500 of them. >> And so you end up with situations like West Virginia and Wyoming where Bernie Sanders beats Hillary Clinton in both states and Hillary Clinton wins literally every delegate >> from those states. Wow. Like, how's that fair? So, wait, explain that to me a little bit better because I want to get down on this. And George McGovern was a major reason Democrats later created superdelegates. After McGovern's 1972 nomination and landslide general election loss, party leaders wanted a way to give more influence to

[05:08] experienced officials and reduce the chance that a highly activist primary electorate would produce another nominee they saw as too extreme. So, you're saying the people believed in this guy? Oh, yeah. even though he lost, the people believed in him, but the party and whoever that is uh didn't want it to be like just a like a populist vote. They didn't want just the people to have the choice. >> They wanted to go back to the days with the smoke filled back rooms with the party bosses choosing who's going to be the nominee. >> And if they put it more on the shoulders

[05:39] of just the de the superdelegates, >> then they could control [clears throat] fewer. It was fewer people they had to control. >> Exactly. Exactly. I am proud to say in 1983 I was a sophomore in college. I was the speakers committee chairman. I was the whole committee of the George Washington University College Democrats in the days when I was a Democrat. And I saw a little blurb in the Washington Post saying, "Hey, remember George McGovern? Uh, he's thinking of running for president again." So I wrote him a letter. I said, "Hey, I read that you're

[06:10] thinking of running for president again. We have a fantastic theater here at the school. we can do all the leg work. Ready-made volunteers. My phone rings a few days later, wakes me up, and it's George McGovern. Yeah. >> And he says, "Can I see that theater?" I said, "Of course." So, he comes over to school and uh we walk over to the theater. Nobody recognized him. >> And uh he said, "Yeah, the theater's perfect." And there's like a cutout for cameras and it was perfect. So, he says, "Don't tell anybody, but I am going to

[06:40] run for president again." >> And this is after the 72 loss. >> Yeah. This is uh yeah 11 years after the 72 loss Reagan is president. >> Okay. >> So um we put out a press release major announcement by Senator George McGovern on such and such a date George Washington University in the Marvin Theater and uh and packed the place and it was on the news. Um and here's what a sweet guy he was. He did the announcement and brought important people with him like uh Mo Ud Doll.

[07:11] Remember Mo Udall? He ran for president in 76. He was a congressman from uh Arizona. And uh there he is. And then um Cliff Robertson, the Academy Award-winning actor, and his wife uh Dena Merrill. Yeah. They both came. >> So he brought some heisters. >> He brought his own influencers. >> Yeah. And uh and Frank Manowitz, who had been Robert Kennedy Senior's U press secretary, was was Senator McGovern's press secretary. >> You must have been geeked, huh? >> Oh, yeah. I was I mean it was

[07:43] incredible. And then he makes the announcement. He shakes everybody's hand and he invites me back to his apartment and his wife made tuna sandwiches. >> Nice. Just the loveliest people. He ended up, crazy as it sounds, coming in third. >> Walter [snorts] Montdale won. Gary Hart came in second and McGovern came in third. >> And that was for the Democratic Party. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> And they kept saying, "Drop out George. Drop out George. Drop out George." Because he was pulling young people. I remember um Jesse Jackson when he ran,

[08:13] he was very close, right? Wasn't he the populist choice kind of? >> Yes, he was the populist choice. 1984 and 1988. >> He was very much so. >> And cuz I remember we had I think we had a sign for him like, [snorts] you know, our family was always like, you know, pretty, you know, liberal and hopeful and new ideas, right? >> That's how mine was. >> Yeah. But like but not but not like ethereal at the same time. Not like unrealistic, right? Not unrealistic, but we were hopeful. You know what I'm saying? Um, but yeah. Didn't Jesse

[08:45] Jackson and did they just not service him or what happened with Jesse Jackson? Yeah, they let him kind of self-destruct. See, it says here he won 11 contests. He did very, very well in 88, but he was never a Democratic party insider. Got it. The insiders were not going to let him have that nomination. >> That's what they do. And the Republicans don't have such a system. You don't think so? >> No, they don't have superdelegates. Which means then an insurgent candidate like like a Donald Trump can win a nomination.

[09:15] >> I see. But it's less likely to happen in the Democratic party. >> Much less likely to happen >> because of superdelegates. Wow. I didn't realize that only one party had those. >> Al Franken because Hold on before you move forward on Al Franken. So, but uh didn't Jesse Jackson win a few like in a row? Like he was >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was on a roll. >> He was all he was building momentum. >> Uhhuh. And they were like, "Yeah, we're going to put the brakes on this." >> And when they say, "We are going to put the brakes on this." Who is the we? Is it just >> It's the It's the state committee chairman who make up the Democratic National Committee. >> Got it. But it's just the insiders. It's

[09:47] like the the money talking whoever those like it's the smoky backroom. >> This congresswoman from Florida, her name escapes me. Three names. But anyway, she was the head of what was it? >> No, she was the head of the DNC in 20 Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Thank you very much. Debbie Wasserman Schultz >> um >> gave Hillary Clinton's campaign all the debate questions >> before the debate. >> Remember that. >> But Bernie didn't get the questions. >> Crazy. >> It's crazy. It's fixed. Yeah. I think we

[10:18] all know what happened at this point. Yeah. Um >> the fix was in. >> But the fix was in. It's just it's a it it starts to make you feel like okay that the the regular person like what you really want the even the idea of that it used to feel real and it doesn't feel real anymore. And that I think is one of the scariest things happening in America right now. You're like >> it used to feel hopeful and now it feels um >> it's will we survive? It feel there's something else. It's not a hope. I don't

[10:49] even know if it it's somewhat of a fear, but it's more of an uncertainty. But America used to feel like this hopeful thing like we're building this thing that's going to that that means something that we're going to pass on to our uh children and that um and that could possibly stand the test of time. And when that when something like that [snorts] you believe in something like that, >> it makes your day-to-day uh interactions and your interaction with your country and uh it it makes that all more meaningful to you. So you

[11:19] show up for it differently. Um we're sitting here with John >> Kiryaku. >> Kiryaku, uh thank you so much for coming in. >> Thank you for the invitation. I love the show. I've seen so many clips of you uh recalling stories from your time in the CIA. Is having a a good memory a requirement uh for the job? >> Oh yeah. >> Is it really? >> Oh my gosh. Yes. >> Is it a requirement? >> It's actively encouraged. I had a station chief one time who gave me the biggest compliment.

[11:49] >> You had a what one time? >> A station chief. >> Okay. >> So I was doing a I was doing [clears throat] an operation in the Middle East, but I was doing it from headquarters. The station chief called me. We were friends from our training days. And he said, "Listen, we recruited a double agent out here. He's insisting on meeting with the chief, but it's just too dangerous for me to meet with him cuz he doesn't know that we know he's working for the bad guys." >> Got it. >> Can you come out here every month and meet with him and pretend to be me? And I said, "Sure." So, I did. To make a

[12:21] long story short, I would do the meeting and then go straight to the airport and fly back to Washington. There was a midnight flight. >> Mhm. >> And um I would write the cable, the reporting cable from headquarters instead of writing it from the station and then sending it to headquarters. I'd write it from headquarters and send it to the station. And the great compliment he gave me was he said, "Your memory is so good. You remember so many details that when I read the cables, I feel like I'm in the room watching it go down." M >> and I said that is exactly what I'm

[12:51] going for. >> Yeah. I've always been proud of of being able to do that. >> But it wasn't a requirement when you uh when you uh I guess I don't know if you audition for the CIA, but how do you >> Yeah, you kind of do. Yeah. >> What's that process like? Like how do you get [sighs] >> extensive? Is it It's changed from when I joined. When I joined, I was in graduate school at George Washington University and I was taking a class called the psychology of leadership. And the class was about why foreign leaders make the decisions

[13:24] that they make. One of the examples that sticks in my mind is the Yaltta conference at the end of World War II. Why was it in Yaltta of all places? >> I'm not familiar with it. Bring it up. The Yaltta conference. Uh the World War II Yeah. um the altar conference was a World War II meeting of the heads of government of the United States, UK, and the Soviet Union to discuss the post-war reorganization of Germany and Europe. Okay. Yeah. So Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin, they all met in Yalta. >> They all met in Yalta, which is really,

[13:54] really hard to get to. And you can't just, you know, get in a plane and fly over the war. The war's still going on, right? So Roosevelt took a train to to Norphick, Virginia, then took a boat to Malta, which took like a week, right? Back in those days, >> which is obviously a scop because it rhymes with Yalta, >> right? And then he had to go to Cairo and then Iran and then from Iran to Yaltta. He was sick. He died a month

[14:26] later. >> Wow. So the reason why it was in Yaltta is because Stalin had a spy in the White House and the spy told him Roosevelt is sick. And so Stalin wanted him to be as weak as possible. When they arrived or when when the American side arrived, Roosevelt was exhausted and he wanted to go to sleep and he >> but Stalin insisted that the talks begin immediately. >> Wow. >> And so just to be able to go to bed, Roosevelt gave up Poland.

[14:56] Look, I'll throw in poll and let's talk tomorrow. >> Exactly. >> Oh yeah, dude. Look, sometimes Yeah. Sometimes where you show up and you're like, "Yeah, you can't do it." Yeah. Or you just say, "Look, yes, take that. >> That's [laughter] fine. I got You know what I'm saying? I got to brush my teeth and lay down for a few minutes." It's crazy the things you will give up when you first get somewhere just to get to your room and unpack. Amen. >> To urinate. >> Oh. So I'm in this class and just to be clear, so they made him go all that way just because they knew it would weaken

[15:26] him. >> Yeah. There it is. >> So they created a a path that would just like that would add to him because they had a spine in the wild. >> Yeah. >> President Franklin D. Roosevelt died of a massive cerebral hemorrhage on April 12th, 1945 at Warm Springs, Georgia, just 2 months after the Yaltta conference. While the grueling 7,000mi trip to the Soviet Union, combined with his severe underlying cardiovascular conditions took a significant toll on his already failing health. Wow. Do you see what a wellplaced spy can do for you? >> That's strategy right there. >> That is strategy. It's that's the big

[15:58] leagues right there. >> That's the big leagues. >> So, I'm in this class and the the professor Dr. Gerald Post, eminent psychiatrist, uh tells us to um shadow our bosses for a week, just watch our bosses, spend each day with them, and then do a psychological profile on our bosses. >> And this is when you're at George Washington University. You're a student, >> right? He was in grad school. There's there's Jerry. >> And what what a great man he was. >> He died of CO. The poor guy. >> So, um, >> so he was murdered,

[16:30] >> right? Right. >> Carry on. >> I'm um I'm working at the United Food and Commercial Workers Union at the time. >> And, uh, I work for this guy. He was a mean, like angry old school union organizer, right? >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> I was a little bit afraid of him to tell you the truth. big, strong, mean guy. And halfway through the week, we got into an argument and I called him a racist, which he was. >> Yeah. >> And he got so mad he set a stance and he put up his fist like this and I I put up

[17:01] my hands thinking, "Dang it, I went too far this time." And he goes, "My penis is bigger than yours." And I said, "What?" And he goes, "My penis is bigger than yours." I said, "You know what? You're nuts." And I quit. And I walked out. So, I went back and I banged out my paper. I said he was a sociopath with psychopathic and possibly violent tendencies. And I I footnoted the whole thing. It wasn't just John venting on it, >> but with a possibly decent wiener on it. >> You're right. Apparently, >> you got to put apparently. [laughter]

[17:31] >> And so, I get the paper back a week later. Dr. Post gave me an A and then in the margin he wrote, "Please see me after class." So, I go up to him. I said, "Dr. Post, you wanted to see me." He says, "Come to my office." the this classroom was like on the sixth floor and the office was on the fourth. So I went down there, he closed the door and he says, "Look, I'm not really a professor here. I'm a CIA officer undercover as a professor here. I'm looking who for people who would fit into the CIA's culture. I think you

[18:01] would fit in. You know, would you like to join the CIA?" And I said, "Oh, yes, I would." >> And so the rest though is up to you. He It was kind of a long story. I'll skip it. But he made a couple of calls that got me deep into the process. >> Got it. So Mr. Post was your professor. >> Yes. >> And you also had this job where you were under where the where the guy was the racist guy. >> Yeah. That was at a union. So I was I [clears throat] was using that union job to put myself through grad school. >> Got it. >> And then I just I quit and I walked out.

[18:33] I said, "The guy's dangerous." And I I guess the way I wrote the paper made him think that the analysis was concise. It was to the point and I backed it up with the facts. So I go through these weird He sent me across the across the river to Rosland, Virginia. Uh Arlington, Virginia. It's a little neighborhood right across the PTOIC from Washington. Hold one second. So So he was a he was a CIA operative. This professor? [laughter] >> Yes. Now, when someone's a CIA operative, but also a professor, are

[19:04] they an actual professor that then gets hired? >> That's a great question. >> Like, which is first? >> That's a great question. It's usually that they're a CIA operative first and then they get hired as a professor. What he did is illegal today. Got it. >> So, in 1993, Congress passed the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, >> the EEOC, which made this illegal. So, um, now it's very like not sexy. You just go to www.cia.gov

[19:35] and click apply, >> right? >> Different. >> It's different. >> It's a little easier. >> Back then it was, you know, all white guys from Ivy League schools for the most part. And uh, now it's different. >> It was exciting. >> Oh, I bet it was the I bet it was one of the most exciting things. I I I used to park my car out in the north 40 >> and then take like 20 minutes to walk all the way around the compound so I could walk in the main door across the giant seal and see the wall of honor and the flags and >> I felt like I wanted to cry, you know? I was so proud to be there. Felt like you

[20:07] were part of something. >> I really did. >> I can imagine how you feel like you're part of something. Like what did you feel like you were part of? >> Well, you know, I I came from this very liberal household and I remember my mom and dad getting into an argument one time. It was the Pennsylvania primary of 1976. And my my mom voted my dad voted for Frank Church who had created the Church Committee that completely reorganized the CIA and stripped it of its his power to its power to, you know, carry out assassinations and things like that. And my mom uh voted for Bir who was a

[20:40] senator from Indiana. And my dad said, "Burge B, why'd you vote for him?" And she said, "He's so good-looking." M >> and my dad's like, "What? Church is the guy doing all the work." And I remember being fascinated by this argument that they were having. So when when Dr. Post approached me, I called a friend of mine that I was in class with who was married to a a guy at the CIA and I said, "Listen, I'm not a n. I I know the CIA's history. It's pretty

[21:11] ugly. Do I want to be involved in an organization like this? I want to go into public service. I want to see the world. She said, "Let's have dinner." So the three of us get together for dinner and he's like, "The the bad old days CIA's of the CIA are gone." The bad old days, he said, "Yeah, the bad old days of the CIA are gone." He said, um 75 with the Church Committee in the Senate, the Pike Committee in the House changed everything. No more assassinations, no more overthrowing governments, which was true for a little while. >> A little while. Because four years

[21:44] later, Ronald Reagan becomes president and next thing you know, we're, you know, doing Iran Contra and we're bombing different countries and everything just went back to the way it was. >> But there was like this golden period. My friends are going to yell at me for saying that. There was this period where the CIA was a really awesome place to work. Got it. And so when you're walking into that, when you're taking me back to that moment where you're walking in, did you feel like I'm a part of something that's important to America or I'm I'm a

[22:16] part of just an intriguing life and this is exciting? Did you feel like I'm like Clark Kent? Like and and there's no wrong answer. This is all just like curiosity. >> Oh, sure. The first seven and a half years that I was there, I was an analyst in actually in the the office that Dr. Post had founded, the political psychology division. And um I really felt like I was a part of something big. You know, I was only on the job 8 months and um it was just as I started to feel

[22:46] like I really knew what I was doing. I was the I was the leadership analyst, the psychological analyst on Iraq. And the reason I was given Iraq was because not my words. These were the words of my leadership. Nothing ever happens there. It's the same cabinet since the 1968 revolution. Nothing ever happens. So, learn the writing style, learn the tradecraft, and you can move on to something interesting like Romania, they told me. >> I said, "Great." So, I'm >> My friend just played ball in Romania,

[23:16] actually. >> It's a great place, Romania. I love it. Oh, yeah. It's great. >> I got to get over there. I don't know. My buddy Patrick McCaffrey just he just finished playing ball over there. Anyway, carry on. >> I love it. So, um, just as I get to the point where I I where I really feel like I know what I'm doing, Iraq invades Kuwait, August the 2nd, 1990, I walk into the office early, like before 7, and my boss says, "Yeah, >> shit's popping now. You got to show up." >> Yeah. I couldn't wait to get into the office that day. My boss says, "Don't take your jacket off. We're going to go to the White House." I had never been in the White House before.

[23:46] >> Mhm. >> And so, um, we go to the White House. There's this marine standing there. He walks us into the into the west wing and we go into the anti- room of the Oval Office and then the secretary takes us in and here's the president, the vice president, the national security adviser and the CIA director. And so you just kind of stand there. You wait to be told what to do. There are two nice chairs like this. The the president's in that one, the vice president's in this one. There's a couch here. My boss and I sat on on that. There are two like more

[24:18] uncomfortable chairs over here for the CI director and the national security adviser [snorts] and we sit down and the president goes, "Well, now what do we do?" And then everybody turns and looks at me and I'm looking at them and then it took me a second and I'm like, "Oh, what? Well, as you know, Mr. president and Iraqi troops crossed the border at 4:00 this morning and the Kuwaiti roy royal family ruling family fled to Saudi Arabia blah blah blah blah but I remember thinking my friends would never

[24:51] believe in a million years what I was doing right now they would never believe it and I was 20 I was 25 years old and it happened overnight that you were kind of suddenly having an influence like you right there they're like they're looking to me for information >> that that actually was kind of a recurring theme in my career I I was just very very lucky. >> Got it. >> A lot of times. >> So when you're walking into uh into the building, when you take that long way and you pass like the flags and walk over the seal, it's just like I'm a part of something. >> Yeah. You really feel it. >> Do you think that's the same CIA that we

[25:23] have today? >> No. No. 9/11 changed everything and it changed it permanently >> in a bunch of different ways. Not just Have you ever heard of Executive Order 1233? >> I haven't. 1233 was signed by Gerald Ford. Um and it it was it came in the aftermath of the church and pike committees and um yeah >> it establish >> responsibilities and guidelines for the US uh intelligence uh community. >> Okay. Executive order 1233 establishes the goals, responsibilities and guidelines for the US intelligence

[25:53] community. Got it. >> Number one, you can't kill people anymore. Right. Well, this was after the Church Commission, right? >> Exactly. They said you got to stop killing people. And we had these like, you know, we we're putting explosives in Fidel Castro's cigar and putting poison on the steering wheel of his car and stupid stuff. And so 1 2 33 >> Tom and Jerry [ __ ] >> Yeah, exactly. You can't do that stuff anymore. And then it's been amended over the years. Well, after 9/11,

[26:24] Bush is just like, just kill everybody you want. Wow. And so we set up these offices, one whole office called the Special Activities Division. And then there's in the counterterrorism center where I was working, there was one called the the Special Activities Group. And their job very simply was just to, you know, send teams around the world, kill people, come back, get the list for the next week, go out there, kill them, come back, get another list, kill those guys. It was like uh

[26:56] nobody was trying to collect intelligence anymore. >> Things changed overnight. >> Overnight. One time I was um I was traveling somewhere, you know, cuz I had my luggage with me and everything and I was I think I was in Guam maybe or Viet Guam or somewhere. I don't know. And I couldn't get the internet. They didn't have it. They didn't Some people didn't know what I was talking about. I'd like point at the sky and then point at like a book or whatever and they didn't understand it. That's where Sally comes in. Sy is an

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[34:11] before. He said, 'We picking up chatter from the al-Qaeda training camps where camp commanders are on the phone with their students and they're crying and telling them, "I'll see you in paradise." >> We're hearing code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey or there's going to be a huge wedding or a huge football game. And he said, "We know that they're planning an enormous attack. We just don't know when or where." and he said, "I'm begging you. If you have any sources inside al-Qaeda,

[34:44] please help us." They just sat there and looked at him. Nothing. So, at the end of the day, I was not working on al-Qaeda at the time. I later, weeks later became the chief of uh counter intelligence in the Osama bin Laden unit. And so, I went to his office at at the end of the day before I took those guys to dinner and I said, "Keofer, I got to tell you, you shocked me with that briefing today. Was that just for them or were you serious? He said, "Oh, I was deadly serious. Something terrible is going to happen." And then on September 11th, there it was. He and I

[35:16] were supposed to go to the White House that morning. We had a meeting with Condisa Rice, who was the National Security Adviser at the time, on an issue that's so stupid now, I'm almost embarrassed to tell you what it is. It was about a a book that was being printed by the government printing office, this minor governmental agency called Greece, Turkey, Cyprus. No, it was called Foreign Affairs of the United States, Greece, Turkey, Cypress, 1949 to 1967. Literally, nobody's going to read this book. >> Nobody. I was going to tell you that. Nobody's gonna read it. >> Literally nobody. >> Yeah.

[35:47] >> And it's like a thousand pages long. >> That's money laundering. >> And it had the names of three CIA sources who were still alive. And we've got this obscure law in the United States that if the government outs a CIA source, we have to offer the source citizenship. these guys are like 198 and 97 years old. They're not going to they don't care, >> right? >> Nobody's going to read the book anyway. So, um, we were going to go down there and ask her, "Just pull those pages out of the out of the book. You know,

[36:17] nobody's going to miss it. Nobody's going to read it anyhow. Just pull the pages out or redact the names or whatever." >> But I went up to tell him that the car was ready and the secretary's got a little TV on her desk and the World Trade Center's on fire. I said, "What happened to the World Trade Center?" She said, 'A plane flew into it.' And I go, because I'm a genius, I said, 'You know, that happened once before in 1930. A bomber flew into the Empire State Building, but it was like pouring rain and fog. I said, "It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're

[36:47] flying into the World Trade Center and just as I spoke the words, the second plane hit >> and then she turned and she said, "Did you see that or did I imagine it?" And it's like, oh, everything's going to go to [ __ ] now. And and at this point, you're already working in counterterrorism. Yeah. >> Well, I was already in counterterrorism, but I was working on a group. See, again, I'm embarrassed to even say I was working in a group that was targeting European communist terrorists, like Carlos the Jackal, who nobody remembers now. He was the Osama bin Laden of the 70s. Nobody remembers who in the world

[37:19] he was. Really? Yeah. Carlos the Jackal. >> Bring him up. >> There he is. >> Whoa, he looks suave, huh? >> He was Venezuelan Ilich Ramirez Sanchez. M >> listen to the balls this guy had. OPEC had an oil ministers meeting, right? So the ministers >> and for those who don't know what OPEC is, it's an organization of petroleum exporting countries. So um it's basically like your oil kind of commission. >> Monopoly. Yeah. Yeah. Monopoly. The uh what do you call it? The uh cartel. It's

[37:50] an oil cartel. So he and his gang of [clears throat] terrorists raided the OPEC oil ministers meeting in Vienna, Austria, and kidnapped every single minister of oil. >> They killed three people, says there. >> Oh yeah. >> He and he demanded a plane, flew everybody to Libya, took his billion dollars ransom that they gave him, and then let everybody go. >> Wow. So he was just trying to get a bag, really, huh? >> Oh, yeah. And he was good at it. And then he was so good at it, he set up

[38:22] terrorist training camps in Libya and Lebanon. And he trained the IRA, the Irish Republican Army. He trained Greece's revolutionary organization 17 November, the Red Brigades, the Axion direct. >> Why did he feel so convicted to to do this sort of behavior? >> He was a true believing communist >> and he just wanted to bring down the West. >> Uh-huh. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> But take me back. So it's like you guys hear that something's going to happen. >> Something terrible is gonna happen. >> But what do you do at that point? Well,

[38:54] see that's the key. What do you do? We we didn't know what to do. So we're going to the, you know, Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Saudis, the this one, then that one. And they're like, we don't know what's going on. Well, as it turned out, that wasn't true. Um, almost all the hijackers, what was it? 17, 16 or 17 of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, right? And we know that the Saudi ambassador to the United States at the time, Prince Bandar bin Sultan al-Sah, his wife transferred

[39:24] $50,000 from her personal bank account to the hijackers. >> What are we supposed to make of that? >> Yeah. Sometimes you got to get your girl to Vimmo if you got it. You know what I'm saying? >> Seriously, you know, the only time I ever saw George Tennant, it was the CIA director at the time, the only time I ever saw George completely lose his [ __ ] was in a meeting with Prince Bandar. He said, "If we don't start getting help from the Saudi government on this case, we're going to start killing people, a lot of people, and

[39:55] some of them are going to be named al- Sud." I go out to Pakistan as the chief of uh counterterrorism operations there in January of O2. So, it's still fresh. We're bombing Tora Bora, all these al-Qaeda people trying to get out of Afghanistan, cross into into Pakistan. And my job was then to catch them when they came into >> We're bombing what? We're bombing We're bombing which country? >> Afghanistan. >> We're bombing Afghanistan, right? But there was Why were we looking for al-Qaeda in Afghanistan? >> That's where they were living. All of them. They launched 9/11 from Afghanistan.

[40:26] >> Got it. >> At least theoretically the ideas came when they were in Afghanistan. >> Well, because from the American like population, it always felt like we never went after Saudi Arabia. That's what it felt like. >> Yeah. And we should have. But if you didn't you know that >> we did not we suspected but we didn't have there was no smoking gun. So that's what I'm getting to. We catch Abu Zuba Zay Albadin Muhammad Hussein. Abu Zuba who we believed at the time I thought you were having a stroke for a second.

[40:56] >> No it's his name. >> No I'm just joking. That was a joke. >> The profession I know the profession of faith. >> I've been around people that are stroking out and if you don't tap in with them they'll just keep going. Oh jeez. >> You know, and then they never buy a vowel and then they just [ __ ] tap out, you know. >> That's terrible. >> So you guys were doing this guy. >> So we're looking for him. >> Oh bro. And we catch him. This dude is a [ __ ] mumble rapper, I think. Go on. >> He We were on him for 6 weeks. We chased him. Some days we'd bust down the door

[41:27] and there's like a warm meal and a half lit cigarette still on the table. We're like, "Dang it, 15 minutes we could have gotten him." >> Some days we were a day or two behind. So he knew we were after him. He knew we were chased him all over the freaking country and we catch him in late March 2002 in Fisalabad, Pakistan. So we also confiscated his diary. This this led to a huge fight between the FBI and the CIA. Huge. And the CIA was right and the

[41:58] FBI was wrong. But um the the fight was well we had we had captured his diary. So, >> dude, that sounds so suspect that he has a diary. >> It was more than a diary though. >> But even though, you know what I'm saying? Like as a regular person. >> No, it didn't have terrorism stuff in it, >> right? But even then, first of all, who the [ __ ] has a >> See, but look, >> he does have an eye patch. >> Sketcher. Yeah. >> Oh, he drew a lot as well. >> It's It's all drawings. All of it. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. All of its drawings. And most of

[42:28] them are classified top secret. The uh the CIA wouldn't allow them to be released. Got it. Um because they were mostly about the torture that was done to him. >> Understood. >> So anyway, we catch the diary and I call headquarters and I said, "Listen, we got his diary and there's some fascinating [ __ ] in here." Like what? And I said, "Well, for one, there are the cell phone numbers of three Saudi princes. Like what's up with that?" So they were like, "Put it in writing." So I write this cable back and I was like, "We found these three princes. Here are their cell

[42:59] phone numbers. George calls in the Saudi ambassador. The president calls the king, "What kind of country you running over there?" So we said, "We want those three princes. We want them like right now." Next thing you know, one goes into the hospital for beriatric surgery cuz they're all fat. >> Mhm. >> And he dies on the operating table. >> The other one is driving from Riyad to Jedha on the Riyad Jedha Highway. He's in a onecar accident and is killed in the accident. The third one goes camping

[43:31] in the desert, which is a very popular pastime, and dies of thirst. >> Yeah. So, we couldn't interrogate any of them. >> Who do you think was Do you think that uh Saudi Arabia did that? >> 100%. >> Right. Do you think we ever got uh to the bottom of 911? Do you think you don't? >> No. And I'm going to say something that's very unpopular. Um, I think that the Israelis, while not involved in 911, absolutely, positively had advanced

[44:01] warning of 911. They had sources inside of al-Qaeda and they purposely did not tell us the details because they knew what was going to happen. They knew that we would attack Afghanistan and we would attack Iraq and we would kill 2 million Muslims. And I mean, these dancing Israelis, they've never answered for this. I'm still mad about the dancing Israelis. >> I've heard about the dancing Israelis. Bring it up. >> So, you're saying that you believe that they knew? >> I think they knew in advance and didn't

[44:32] warn us. >> But they didn't warn us because we would then we would >> we would do their dirty work for them. >> We would take out issues with their surrounding guys. You know, there are videos making the rounds now of Benjamin Netanyahu over the years, over the the last 20 plus years, testifying before Congress and saying, you know, if if we just took out Saddam Hussein, we would be peace in the Middle East. If we just took out Muamar Gaddafi, there would be I guarantee you, he says, there would be peace in the Middle East. And we do it all. >> We to take out Iran and we're going to

[45:02] have peace in the Middle East. >> It's starting to get a little bit more like I think so. A little sus. >> Yeah. So, um, the Iraqis have electrical towers like we have everywhere, but ours have four legs and the Iraqis have three legs. So, just a few days before we attacked Iraq, at that time, I'm the I'm the executive assistant to the deputy director for operations at the CIA. So, it's a serious the most serious job I ever had in my life. >> So, you have access to a lot. >> Literally everything. >> Wow. >> And the Israelis come to us and they said, "Listen, you guys are going to

[45:32] attack Iraq in a couple days." We want in. We said absolutely not. We put this coalition together with all these Arab countries. As soon as you guys jump in, all the Arabs are going to drop out. Just let us do it. Next thing you know, every one of these electrical towers just begins to topple over like 150 miles worth in the Western Desert because somebody put explosives on just one of the three legs. >> And I remember my boss saying, "These damn Israelis, they just can't leave well enough alone.

[46:04] They just don't ever do as they're told. >> Um, let me look at this. The dancing Israelis, and we're talking about the Israeli government. We're not talking about Israeli people. >> I'm I'm far less worried about the dancing Israelis than than I am about the Israelis who were arrested on 911. >> Okay. >> But just so I just so I can say the claim because I don't know, I've never even spoken about this. The dancing Israelis is a 911 related conspiracy trope based on the arrest of five Israeli men in New Jersey on September 11, 2001. Um, and this is uh according

[46:35] to Perplexity, and it was some guys, I think they were on a building top and they were kind of dancing like around a highing each other. >> Yeah. A bread truck or something as the uh as you can see the towers in the distance. Um, yeah, a New Jersey woman reported five men near a van overlooking Manhattan who appeared to be celebrating and taking photos as the Twin Towers burned. Police later stopped a suspicious van and detained five Israeli citizens. Um they had items like box cutters and multiple passports which conspiracy theorists later fixated on but box cutters are normal tools for a

[47:06] moving delivery job. Um they were happy because they knew exactly what was going to happen that we would have to enter the war. We would attack Afghanistan. We would probably then you know uh take a permanent position in the in the region which is exactly what happened. That's why they were dancing. They were happy 911 is a good thing for Israel. Yeah, >> it got us militarily engaged over the long term. >> But you don't think that they were involved in the setting up of it? >> I don't. No, no, no. There's And there's never been any evidence to suggest that

[47:36] they were involved in any way. >> I have no idea. >> No. But there was another thing, too, and this is this is a bigger issue. Um, it's that uh the Israelis spy on the United States. They've always spied on the United States. >> Do we spy on them also? >> No. And and that's written in stone at the CIA. We do not spy on Israel, but they openly spy on us. They're all over the country stealing defense secrets. >> Do we spy on other countries? >> Yeah, we spy on almost every >> Why can't we spy on them?

[48:07] >> It's a political decision that's been made. >> Yeah. A political decision in the White House, on Capitol Hill. >> Sometimes it just feels like our country is just kind of owned by Israel and they just don't say that. Do you think that that's true or do you think that's fictional? >> Well, I don't think it's so clear-cut. I think I think the truth is that the Israelis have inordinate political influence in the United States, especially in our elections. >> Yeah. >> Well, they just had that election with Thomas Massie that um >> Exactly. That That's the best example

[48:37] >> that got overtaken. What happened with that election? Let's bring it up. I mean, I know that Thomas lost, but it was it was the largest. >> Yeah. $35 million was spent. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee or Apac and other [snorts] pro-Israel interest groups have unccorked over 9 million in a bid to unseat Republican Representative Thomas Massie on Tuesday, which they did in a competitive primary that has shattered spending records. Uh prominent pro-Israel GOP donors have funneled millions more into a super PAC stood up by President Donald Trump's

[49:08] political operation that has spent nearly 7 million on the race. Overall ad spending has topped 32 million, making it the most expensive House primary on record per tracking firm ad impact. Wow. >> For a job that pays $180,000 a year. >> So, what are the long-term benefits of them getting this position? Or was it just about getting Massie out? >> It was getting Massie. The thing about Apac is if you are not 100% pro-Israel, they will primary you. They'll they'll primary you with somebody who is 100%

[49:38] pro-Israel. And sometimes, you know, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Where um what does that mean? >> Uh where you've got, for example, there was an incumbent Democrat in New Jersey who voted pro-Israel 90% of the time. They ran a primary opponent against him. Um and uh who was 100% pro-Israel and he lost, but so did she. And the one that won was the one that's pro Palestinian. >> Ah, I see. So sometimes by taking out by

[50:09] by aiming for one, you might let another through. >> You end up hurting your own cause. >> Got it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I think I mean I can understand people's uh angst with this sort of thing. I mean the the biggest thing is just like if Israel is involved in a genocide, right? They're genociding people. It's almost like why would you let Nazi Germany invest in your in your people who are going to be running congressmen or senators in your country? It's crazy. I don't see how there's not a law. Like, why isn't there a law if

[50:39] there's some if a country's doing like a like a holocaust or like a genocide that they're not allowed to invest in um that they're not allowed to have a lobby in in in our elections? See, was there ever a law about that? >> No. And and they would lose their [ __ ] over the use of the word genocide. You used it. I use it. It's a genocide. It meets >> We've been using it on here for years. >> Oh, yeah. It meets all the international legal requirements of a genocide. >> Yeah. Well, I think the UN is has voted that it is. Yeah. Um I don't know if the

[51:10] vote passed because I think there was maybe some groups that were that wouldn't agree to it. Um >> Well, it didn't pass the Security Council, but it passed by 90 something% in the general assembly. Yeah, but I just I don't understand why that seems fair. And also, I'm amazed that I don't understand why people that made like movies and wrote books about the Holocaust, why they don't speak up and say, "Hey, >> yeah, this is the same thing that I wrote about." You know what I'm saying? You can show picture to picture that makes it exactly >> killing is wrong.

[51:40] >> It's wrong. No matter who's doing the killing or who's being killed, it's just wrong. >> But I don't see why some of those people don't speak up, >> you know. >> Well, there there is an increasingly large number of Jewish Americans who are speaking out. There's a big group called Jewish Voices for Peace. Um the Orthodox Jewish community in New York has been very vocal just this week. Uh there was um protest annual Israel Day parade and >> and a lot of the Orthodox Jews from

[52:11] Brooklyn showed up with Palestinian and Iranian flags and it caused violence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I guess I just don't understand why what are like what is America afraid of like like what have you seen like in the CIA because it does you hear a lot that like that that the Israeli influence >> like has taken over our CIA and our FBI. Do you think that that's true or not? >> Well, I can't speak to the FBI and my my CIA information is dated. I left the CIA

[52:41] more than 20 years ago, but when I was there, we kept the Israelis at arms length. like seriously. So, um the very first intelligence liaison intelligence briefing I ever gave was to the Israelis. I had been only on the job six weeks and my boss said, "Listen, you're going to give a liazison briefing. It's going to be a whole big group of people. So, you're going to be the last one to talk because you're the most junior, but you need to know some of the ground rules." He said, "We do not meet with the Israelis in the building. We used

[53:13] to, but every time they'd come, they'd bring us gifts. And the gifts are always packed with listening devices and batteries. >> Is that true? >> Yes. 100% true. >> Would you guys find them? How do you even know that that's true? >> Because you have to x-ray everything that comes into the building. You can't just wantingly walk in off the street with, you know, boxes of gifts and say, "Here, this is for you." >> And what they do to sew a couple Palestinian ears from the rubble >> and they're like, [laughter] "Oh, we're just joking." >> Oh, it's like joking stuff. >> Yeah, it's not joking. >> Right. So, that happened during your time. Was that with other countries too?

[53:43] So I'm sure there's other countries that like >> Oh, there are other countries we don't even have liaison with. >> Got it. >> But with the Israelis, we had to we had to rent a place and we would meet with them in the place. Um on my very first day at the CIA, you you meet in the auditorium called the bubble and the head of HR comes out and the director comes and says, "Welcome to the CIA." And then the head of security, it's just a parade of important people come to welcome you. So the head of security said, he said a couple things. One was funny. He said, "The gravest threat facing America today is the threat of

[54:16] Soviet communism." And I said to the guy next to me, "Does this guy not read the papers? There is no Soviet Union anymore." Anyway, he went on to say that the Israelis have two declared intelligence officers in the United States, one Mossad and one Shinbet. So CIA and FBI equivalents. They're at the Israeli embassy in Washington. But the FBI has identified 187 additional undeclared Israeli intelligence officers spread out all

[54:46] over America >> stealing secrets from defense contractors. So the the lesson was don't ever talk about work outside the building. Don't ever eat at the restaurants in MLAN, Virginia, because they're all Russian KGB and back then it was the KGB and Israeli Mossad agents eating there to hear what the CIA people are saying afterward. >> Wow. >> Yeah, >> it sounds exciting though. At least >> it was kind of exciting. >> I bet it was. It was like a real who done it. >> I I loved it. I really did. I loved it

[55:16] until I didn't love it. You know, >> in after 911, everybody went nuts and just wanted to kill everyone. I was getting ready to go to Pakistan and so I stopped by the office on my way to the airport just to say goodbye because Kofheer said on 911 he stood up on his desk. >> Kofer Black, you said >> Kofheer Black. Yeah. He stood up on his desk and he said, "Today we're at war. All of us are going to have to do our part. Not all of us are going to be able to come home." >> So he said, "If you if you want to walk now, walk and nobody will think less of you." Nobody budged. So I stopped by the

[55:47] office cuz I wanted to say goodbye. I don't know. Am I going to get shot? Am I going to get blown up? Am I going to get killed? I I don't know. So, I just want to say goodbye. >> Say goodbye to Kofheer. >> No. To Kofheer. To my boss, excuse me, [clears throat] and to the people I was working with. >> Well, why would you have gotten shot? I'm >> I was the chief of counterterrorism operations. That's the job I'm going out to. I'm busting down doors three nights a week. And um and I worked for this guy. Lovely, lovely guy. Nice suits, just a really like like very professorial.

[56:18] And he gives me a hug and he leans in and he says, "Kill them all." And I said, "Really? Have we gotten there already?" Wow. >> And he says, "Kill them all." And then I went to the airport. I was like, "Am I the only guy who thinks we should do this by the book?" God. >> Apparently I was. That's crazy, man. It was ugly. You should see some of the pictures I have on my phone. Those make your hair stand up. >> I don't know. I'm already There's already a lot of stuff I'm not allowed to look at. >> [laughter] >> Um, I have blockers on my phone. So, uh,

[56:50] yeah, I'm just gonna donate my eyes to charity, I think, soon. Um, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up and the kids are out of school and adventure is the focus. For others, juggling it all can be tough and and they're just counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. If you're feeling off, this is a reminder to check in with yourself. Hey

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[1:05:09] "Look, we've we've literally filled the jail. you got to do something with these guys. I said, "Okay." So, I call headquarters. I said, "The packs are telling me that the jail's full. What do you want to do with them?" They said, "Put them on a C12 and send them to Guantanamo." I said, "Guantamo? Cuba? Why would we send them to Cuba?" And they said, "We came up with this idea. We're going to send everybody to Cuba and then we're going to divide them up after we figure out what federal district court to charge them with." Because 911 was an open criminal

[1:05:40] investigation at the time and the crimes were committed in the Eastern District of Massachusetts hijacking the Western District of Pennsylvania hijacking the Eastern District of Virginia, the Pentagon, and the Southern District of New York. >> I said, "That's a great idea." So, we just started loading these guys on an endless, you know, parade of C12 transport planes and sending them to Guantanamo. And then somebody in Dick Cheny's office, probably David Addington, although he's never admitted

[1:06:10] it, somebody said, "You know what? These guys don't have any rights in Cuba. Why don't we just leave them there like forever?" >> And here we are 24 years later. >> Some of them are still there. >> And they're still there. >> Most of them, you think? >> 34 of them. At the height we had like 770 I think was when it was at its most full. >> I went there one time as a to perform as a comedian. Yeah. >> Went down there and was performing for some of the troops there and stuff. You got to see some of the uh just the way

[1:06:42] you would fly in it. >> See it in the distance. >> Oh yeah. When you the way you'd fly in at night uh they would fly in like this kind of crazy pattern and um >> Yeah, they do. >> And it was lit up. It almost looked like a big wedding ring in the distance because they had like just these bright bright lights. um on the fences surrounding the uh the base. And so you come in like at this crazy kind of pattern and uh and you kind of had to go around. We went from I think >> you can't cross Cuban airspace. You have to go around and come up from the south.

[1:07:13] >> We went from somewhere in Florida and went around. It was pretty intense. I mean, it was definitely it was interesting. Uh, and then we got to go right up by the by the detainee centers and I think we even saw some guys playing volleyball and stuff, but um, were there tortures where people lost their lives? Were you that you were involved in? >> Not that I was involved in, thank God. There were, you know, >> but like at what point do you call like one office getting out of hand? Like have you been in one that was getting out of hand? >> No, because when we were catching guys, we had not yet implemented the torture

[1:07:43] program. So the torture program was was conceived and approved in October of 2001. >> Okay. >> I got to Pakistan in January of 2002 and we're like what do we do with these guys? We the FBI's there with us there. You can't you can't like hit them or you can't do anything to them. If they don't talk then okay we just send them to Guantanamo. >> And because you you ended up coming out and talking speaking out about uh torture that was happening, >> right? But how would they let you do that if you weren't aware of it firsthand though?

[1:08:14] >> Well, because remember I became the executive assistant to the deputy director. >> Oh, so you would see the reports coming back. You see all the cables coming back in? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Huh. >> Mhm. >> Was some of it pretty intense. Do you feel like >> Oh, it was bad. You know, I most most of the news outlets that I talked to, they make the biggest deal out of water boarding. There's water boarding right there. >> Um I think that there were there were techniques that were worse than waterboarding. Sleep deprivation >> Yeah. is one. Um, and in terms of causing death, uh, the cold cell, you

[1:08:46] see, sensory deprivation, that was also a terrible one. >> What is that like? >> Sensory deprivation, they put you in in like an isolation tank. >> Mhm. >> And you're surrounded by water and you literally go crazy from the silence. So, you're in like a like one of those uh like kind of one of those places you can go pay to do and it's like quiet in there. >> But instead of being in there for an hour or two hours, you're in there for 3 weeks. >> Is there are they playing music or >> No, it's it's complete silence and darkness. Complete and total like you're

[1:09:18] dead. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> I think Aaron Rogers does that. >> Yeah. I think that's nuts. But there were a couple that were worse than than uh waterboarding. The cold cell. We strip the prisoner naked. You chain him to an eyebolt in the ceiling so he can't lay or sit or get comfortable in >> you. You keep your underpants on or you >> No, no, no, no. Because the idea is to humiliate them. >> Remember in their religion? >> Oh. >> Uh nakedness is shameful. >> Yeah. >> Right. Nakedness in front of a woman. And we would have women interrogators

[1:09:49] stripped them naked just to humiliate them. >> Yeah. You see this rectal feeding? Um >> rectal feeding. >> Yeah. What we did is we forced tubes up their asses and then with a pump pumped hummus up there >> just to insult their culture. >> No way. >> Who was coming up with these ideas? I'm sure >> there were two contract psychologists at the CIA. Um James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. >> Is that true? >> They came up with these plans. >> Yeah. And we paid them $108 million of the taxpayers money for it.

[1:10:20] >> Wow. But when you look at were these people criminals? I see. This is what's in >> That's the thing. That's the thing, Theo. They've never been charged with a crime, >> right? >> So, charge them. If these guys are as bad as we say they are, charge them with a crime. If they're as bad as we say they are, find them guilty, sentence them to death, and execute them. We won't even charge people in our country who are committing a crime. A crime. >> No. >> So, I think that it's like that's like a problem that's been across the board is like what is the crime?

[1:10:51] Charge somebody with a crime. >> Yeah. It's not happening in our own country because this is so wild to hear about because it's like >> you know it's really it's interesting like just as a person right you're like okay did these guys do something really bad to kill people in our country right did were they doing really harmful stuff or they like >> and they were >> right >> yeah but they confessed through torture so none of it's admissible none of it >> right okay so but then it's like yeah it's like how do you solve something like that you know with war crime. Well,

[1:11:23] there was a there was a deal that was made during the Biden administration. So, it was it was like the top three or four um Khalik Muhammad uh Amar Al Baluch Ramsey binib and somebody else. Um, they agreed to plead guilty to terrorism and what they got in exchange was life without parole and a promise not to send them to supermax in Colorado because they they

[1:11:55] said they couldn't deal with the cold. They wanted to stay in Cuba because it's warm. >> So, life without parole. And Biden's uh secretary of defense um vacated the deal and he says, "You can't make a deal like that. I have to make that deal because I'm the Secretary of Defense. And it went through the courts. And then the Biden administration, there it is right there. >> The Biden administration, Department of Defense. Um, and who were these four guys? They were the men accused >> Muhammad, Wally Bin Tash, Mustafa Hawi.

[1:12:26] >> They were accused of plotting the September 11 terrorist attacks, right? The Biden administration, Department of Defense reached plea agreements with uh three prominent al-Qaeda figures whom you just mentioned, accused of plotting the September 11th terrorist attacks. However, following intense political and public backlash, the administration moved to block the agreement and the courts later threw it out. So, what happened to the guys? They're just still in being still there. You see right there the terms they they agreed to plead guilty to murdering 2,976 people >> in exchange for life without parole.

[1:12:58] >> Okay. So, the deal was thrown out. So, now what do they have? >> They have life without parole. They That's the deal, >> right? Same thing. >> It's the same thing. They're never going to be released. >> But why didn't we What was the reason why there? Oh, because the reaction from people. >> It was It was really reaction from the Biden administr. I guess they >> Well, the 911 families just want to chop everybody's head off. And I understand. I get it. I really do. >> It makes sense. I get it. But that's

[1:13:29] never going to happen. It's never going to happen. We're a country of laws. We can't just pretend that we're a country of laws except when the laws aren't convenient for us. >> But if you kill enough people, it seems like you would face the death penalty. >> Yes. But this you have the you have to blame the CIA for that. If the CIA hadn't tortured these guys, they would all be have inadmissible. >> It's all inadmissible. Got it. They confessed everything, but it was all under torture. >> And so you can't do anything with it. Now, there's no evidence against them.

[1:13:59] None. >> What a I can't even imagine what it's like to be some of those families and like and just the drawn out of all of that. >> It's been 24 year 25 years in in September. >> Um, let's get a little bit more current. Did you Oh, did you see that they just had the like they have those flatillas that are going to Gaza? Did you see that the prime minister of Ireland's sister was on one of them? >> [laughter] >> I'll tell you, the Irish hate the Israelis and the Israelis hate the Irish. Has that always been the case,

[1:14:30] you think? >> No, only in the last eight or 10 years. Let me see this. Gaza aid flotillaa activist home after torture ship nightmare. Scroll a little. Uh, Irish activists have claimed they were kidnapped and beaten by Israeli forces after their aid flotilla to Gaza was intercepted in international waters. Margaret Connelly, the sister of President Connelly, was among the emotional arrivals at Dublin airport on Saturday. They wanted us to suffer, she said. None of them could look us in the eye. What a dehumanizing thing to do to men and women aged from 22 to 75. That's

[1:15:01] just wild. Imagine if like Obama's sister or >> Can you imagine? >> Can't even imagine. I want to interview Greta Thurberg. >> Oh, that would be fun. >> It'd be cool, huh? >> Yeah. >> I just would like to get to see what she's like. >> You know, I never been around her. I just see you just see like bits and clips of people, right? >> Um, so it'd be pretty fascinating. The Irish detainees were among hundreds of part participants from other countries who were also detained when the latest iteration of the global sum sim flotilla flotillaa was stopped by Israeli forces in international waters and a lot of

[1:15:33] these groups were trying to get there to bring aid to the people in Gaza and then also I think to just document what was going on there. Um, they've had the largest killing of journalists. >> Yeah. >> In the history of time. >> Yeah. Of the world. >> In the history of the world. >> Yeah. How are people not outraged? Have you heard of um >> I don't know if people have any feelings anymore. I don't know what's going on. >> Have you heard of Shireen Abu Akla? >> No. I couldn't even hear that. I don't even know how to, you know, [laughter] I couldn't I couldn't do it if I Yeah.

[1:16:03] Shireen Abu Akla was an American citizen and she was the top journalist on Al Jazzer. So um bring her up Shireen >> Shireen Abu Akla. >> Abu Akla. >> So again, American citizen. She goes to Israel and she's covering the uh the fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians. I think it was in the in the West Bank. There she is. >> Yeah, in the West Bank. So, she's wearing a bulletproof vest that says press and she's wearing a helmet that says press and she's she's taking cover

[1:16:35] behind a tree and an Israeli sniper shot her in the face >> and killed her. Killed her instantly. So, her funeral is held a couple days later in a Greek Orthodox church in the West Bank. The IDF raids the church, beats the pawbearers, and they drop the the coffin. >> You're lying. >> Isn't that awful? Let me see. The manner of her death and the subsequent vi violent disruption of her funeral drew widespread international condemnation of Israel. During her funeral procession, the Israel police attacked the pawbears

[1:17:07] at the St. Joseph's Hospital in East Jerusalem with batons and stun grenades. The hospital itself was also stormed by Israeli police officers who assaulted patients and threw stun grenades. What is >> an American citizen? >> Unbelievable. >> We and we didn't say anything. >> We didn't say anything. Well, most of our media won't say a lot of stuff about this. >> No. >> What do you think's going on? It feels like this is almost like >> it almost feels like um like the Twilight Zone. >> Does that make any sense to you? >> Yes, very much.

[1:17:37] >> Well, as someone who's seen like a lot of like SCOPs and things that go on, what's going on here? Like like does Israel have like an end goal? Like I like I have a lot of Jewish friends that are great people and stuff like that, right? And one of my best friends is an IDF special forces veteran. >> No way. >> Yeah. How does he feel about this sort of >> He's ashamed. He's ashamed. He's like, "We didn't used to be like this." >> I just don't under like Is there some goal of Israel? That's is a bigger goal. Do you think? Do you think so? >> Well, the goal might be in the 2027

[1:18:10] National Defense Authorization Act, it integrates for the first time ever the Israeli and American militaries. So they become like one military. It's like who who thought of that? Oh, my friend Roana actually is putting together >> Wow. >> He's trying to put together a bill, I think, to challenge this. I'm not and I don't know if the term is a bill. I'm not sure. So, you know, I'm more of an emotional guy than I am. >> I like and respect Roana. I hope he runs

[1:18:41] for president. >> He's a neat guy. We had him on here and it was it was cool. I think he's a I think he's a really interesting guy. I think he's brave. Um I like the stuff that he's brave enough to do. Um see, and I say the same thing about Tucker Carlson. >> I think I think Tucker the I'll tell you something about Tucker is the Tucker that you see on the screen, that's Tucker in real life. >> I agree. >> He's He's the sweetest guy. He means exactly what he says. He doesn't hold anything back. Totally honest. Well, I

[1:19:13] think it's like you're just a human being who lives in a country and you're supposed to have these like things of what means something and then you start to see all this stuff that you're like, well, this goes against everything that I've learned. This goes against like >> especially like you grow up like you see like every other book at the airport is about the Holocaust for my entire life. So, it's like every time you're getting on a plane, you're grabbing one and you're learning about it and you're like you you see these things that are wrong or that are like, >> you know, and then you see this thing

[1:19:43] happening. You're like, how is this? And then if you mention like and people act like I I don't know. It's almost like you feel like you're being just gas lit and then your media won't cover a lot of it. >> That's right. >> So, I don't know what's going I don't know. And I don't know what's going on. >> I was on I was on the Pierce Morgan show not too long ago. I I go on every couple of months and I never been on his show. What's that guy like? >> Oh, he's he's a good guy, too. And I have to >> Is he pretty tall or not? >> I haven't met him in person actually. Only on Zoom. >> Always wondered how tall he was. Somebody said he was like 5'5. Dude,

[1:20:14] >> what? >> Yeah, >> that would surprise. 61. >> 61. >> Okay, that makes more sense. >> Maybe the exchange rate on him or something. >> Yeah, it's the exchange rate. So, um I was on his show and I was with um Scott Horton, who's one of the most brilliant people I I've ever met. Um and Alan Dersawitz and uh Danny Ayalon, General Danny Ayalon, um former former Israeli general. And when there we are, there we are. So, uh [laughter]

[1:20:46] so when you're on with Dersitz, Duritz never shuts his mouth. >> That's it. That was what I was going to say. >> Let me see. former C agent John Kirau uh believes Jeffrey Epson. >> Oh no, that wasn't it. That's Jeffrey Epstein. Uh no, it was about it was about Hamas and Gaza. And he asked me cuz I had said the least on this episode and he said, "Do you believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization?" And I said I said, "Yes, if the point was on October 7th was to attack civilians, the definition of terrorism is the act of

[1:21:19] using violence to instill terror in a civilian population." So that's the definition of terrorism. So yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. He said, "Uh, do you believe October 7th was a terrorist attack?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "Then what are you doing on this show?" I was supposed to be in the like anti-Israel, I guess, or whatever. And I said, "Pice, you can't have as a policy. Just kill everybody, women, children, the elderly, wipe out every hospital, every school, every apartment block. That's genocide." >> Yeah.

[1:21:49] >> Somebody's got to say it. Yeah. I mean, it's scary. And then and then and then to think, how would our country be okay right now with us joining military forces with a group that's doing that? >> I'm sure not okay. And then then you have to ask, what about these people like Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham? Lindsey Graham said the other day, a week ago, that until I breathe my last breath, I will stand with Israel. Why? Why? Oh, that dude's just the N Rochney

[1:22:20] of [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Oh my god. And Cruz is just as bad. And these clowns from Florida that that wear IDF uniforms under the floor of the house. They should be arrested. >> I didn't even see that. >> It was Congressman Fine, but you're like an a you're supposed to have like a read on these types of things. Like what do you think's going on? >> I think it's Apex money. I think it's two things. It's Apex money. millions upon millions and millions of dollars in American politics. So they have an inordinate influence on

[1:22:52] our political system and Apac is the only group of its kind that does not have to register as a foreign agent. >> You know, I've made a I've made a point on a couple of podcasts back in 200 like8. I got a very small contract just I don't know five six thousand bucks to write four op-eds in support of the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce. So I wrote these op-eds. Oh, you should do business in Abu Dhabi. It's really businessfriendly. They love Americans.

[1:23:23] Everybody makes money. All right, send. I had to register as a foreign agent >> because I was uh I was I was publishing in support of a foreign entity. >> Interesting. What the heck is APAC doing 24/7? >> How come they don't have to register as foreign agents? >> Yeah. And I I get I think it seems like we have our our uh our pe our government officials are afraid to stand up to them. I don't know why. >> Very afraid. And then you have these morons. >> Why do you think they're afraid? But why do you think they're afraid? >> They don't want to be primar. >> Like even if you get primary, but like

[1:23:54] you would eventually somebody will win, right? Like yes, but but who among them has the courage to be the first? I mean, Massie stood up. >> Massie took it. I I saw him about a week before the election. >> But he can't be the only person in there. >> Well, Marjorie Taylor Green, but she didn't have the guts. She quit. She quit halfway through. >> What are they What do you think they're compromising these people? Like, what are they saying to them? Are they saying like something bad is going to h like what do you suggest? >> They're saying you will never work in

[1:24:24] politics ever again. >> We will hound you for the rest of your career. Then if you lose then what do you have any you have nothing to lose then >> that's what you and I say you and I would say would stand up >> bring up the thing about the just the government just like the government's being interacted those two artic that right uh the house armed services committee has unveiled its proposed 2027 national defense authorization act which would see a record shattering $1.15 trillion spent on the US military over the next fiscal year among the bill's many provisions is section 224 entitled

[1:24:55] the United States Israel defense technology cooperation ution initiative. Uh the provision would bring the US and Israel into an unprecedented partnership covering technology sharing, the co-production of weapons systems and bilateral research and development across multiple domains of warfare, including biotech, autonomous systems, AI, cyber warfare, and more. Well, this could just mean that we are uh we're employing technology that they have, right? Is there any more specifics about this? >> Looks closer than that. I'll tell you

[1:25:26] what, if >> and I'm not saying it isn't. Look, it definitely scares me. I mean, I don't want to be involved with a country that's doing something like that. And I don't think that's crazy for me to say that either. >> Even if it's just this, >> um, that means they're not going to have to steal the 2% of defense technology that we don't give them. I'll give you an example. When I was still there, we were developing the F-35. So, they came to us, they said, "We want the F-35. We want want to be the first ones to have the F-35." We said, "Great. We're going to have we're going to give you the F-35. We're going to call it the F-35i

[1:25:56] for Israel. And it's going to have just a barely slightly degraded um avionics system just in case, god forbid, you know, it doesn't get shot down and then the Chinese and the Russians get it and then they can steal the avionics. They said, "No, not good enough. We want the we want the F-35, the same one that you guys fly." In the meantime, the Emirates came to us and they said, "We want the F-35." We said, "Great. We're going to give you the F-35E. we're going to call it for Emirates and it's going to have just a slightly degraded avionics

[1:26:27] package. Same thing we're giving the Israelis. They said, "Fine, we'll take it." The Israelis then tasked their spies with stealing whatever the downgrade was in the in the avionics so that they could re-upgrade it once they took delivery of the F-35. Well, now we're just going to share everything with them. We'll just give them the F35. >> But can you like can you fault a country? Like it's kind of interesting cuz I think if you if you think that we're playing like that the I I guess I always felt like we were out of the colonization era.

[1:26:58] >> I know. I'm with you. >> And and >> and I know what you're getting at. >> And so it's like you can't fault a country really for just trying to survive. >> I don't. I don't. >> And I'm not saying you are. I'm think I'm thinking out loud. But let me finish the sentence real quick. Sorry, John. But yeah, you can't f like, you know, if a country is just trying to survive and they're good at it and better at it than others, then it's like that has to be respected in in some senses for sure. Agreed. I don't fault the Israelis for doing this. If I were the prime minister of Israel, I would do the same thing

[1:27:29] when it comes to acquiring defense technology. I fault the US government. And it makes not one wit of difference if there's a Democrat in the White House or a Republican in the White House. We don't stand up to the Israelis. >> Yeah. >> You know, I will say Reagan did in the so-called year of the spy when Jonathan Pard was uh No, actually it wasn't Reagan by then. It was Clinton, wasn't it? Clinton stood up and said, "We're going to prosecute this guy." Pard

[1:28:05] >> peaked in ' 84. Jonathan, >> when was he arrested? >> 85. Okay. So, it was Reagan. It was Reagan. He did every single day of the 30 years. And um then when he got out of prison, Miriam Adlesen or not Mary Mson, her husband, it was uh what's his name? Aden, uh the the king of Las Vegas >> sent his private jet. The jet took Pard to Israel. Netanyahu met him at the airport. He kissed the ground. And in an

[1:28:38] interview, Sheldon Eden in an interview he urged American Jews to take up arms against the American government and then Huckabe meets with him and welcomes him into the American embassy. I would have shot him if he had come into the American embassy and I were the ambassador. >> Yeah. I just don't understand. I think it makes it like I don't know. I think a lot of people are looking for guidance right now. >> I think you're right. If you're a regular person who we're just trying to get through the week, we want to believe

[1:29:08] in our country. We get scared that our taxes are going towards like >> Yes. violent things and evil things. That's the thing. It starts to feel like there's something evil going on. Um >> Yeah. And it's not like >> we're right and everybody else in the rest of the world is wrong. You know, you look at these votes. I don't know if I'm right about anything. [laughter] You You look at these votes at the UN General Assembly and it's everybody in the world voting yes and voting no is the United States. I'm serious about this because I served at the UN. It's the United States, Israel, Costa Rica,

[1:29:40] and Palao. A little island with 30,000 people in the Pacific. That's it. And the whole rest of the world is voting the other way. You've talked a like you've worked on counterterrorism. Is it weird? Like terrorism is such an interesting term because it's like at a certain point it feels like we're chasing the tail of the dog we let loose kind of. Does that make any sense even? >> Yeah, I like that. I might steal that. >> Yeah, steal it. I don't even know exactly what it means, but um you know

[1:30:13] they just had a they I saw something the other It was like uh $300 billion to rebuild um parts of I don't think it's Iran, but I think it's Libya. >> Can you look that up? 300 billion to rebuild parts of Libya >> that we that we >> that we just that we just blew up. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, right here it says a truce $300 billion investment plan in Hormuz. What's in the deal draft that can end US Iran war? US and Iran mediators are now engaged in high stakes negotiations

[1:30:44] aimed at ending the conflict despite a fragile ceasefire in the place and months of turmoil in the Middle East. The possible truce plan includes key bargaining points between these two two sides including a $300 billion investment package uh and the crucial straight of hormonal issue making the agreement extremely closely watched for. However, one of the biggest developments emerging from the discussions is a proposed multi-billion dollar reconstruction and investment package that could fundamentally reshape Iran's economy if a final deal is reached. So,

[1:31:16] it's just why it's like we just went there and got involved in this. I don't know if this is a taxpayer thing. >> God, I hope not. >> But just the whole thing is like uh I don't know. You start to feel so defeated sometimes. >> Yeah. Isn't that the truth? >> And you start to feel like your vote isn't going to do anything. Um, that's the scary part. And then part of this feels like a long-term SCOP. Like it's a slow weakening of the values. like, okay, let's put things in this society over time that'll like, you know, tear apart the American family and like

[1:31:48] that'll like poison people and let's do you think there like >> there's big scops like that going on like let's put CO out there so that uh people are separate from each other and um and that people can't go to meetings and meet up and so you start to deteriorate the value of human connection and uh let's po let's make food so that it's just poisoning people and that it's um you know that it's it's just going to you know it's going to make people sick or let's make health care so it's not there's no real way uh

[1:32:18] besides extreme stress that you have to go through if you even have to make a claim like you know do you think that uh some of that is just corporate greed and stuff or do you think some of that's a longer term scop by like bigger powers out there? >> I I don't I I don't think it's a part of a bigger SCOP. Okay. Um, but I do believe firmly that it's mostly corporate greed. You just reminded me of something I excuse me I saw recently. >> Um, and it was this experiment that I don't know somebody did. I saw it on

[1:32:49] YouTube where they put a they they put a homemade um hamburger on the ground and they put a a McDonald's quarter pounder on the ground and then they photographed it, you know, over the course of days and then weeks and then months. Bugs come, ants come, they they go to the to the hamburger, they tear the bun down. Mostly they went for the meat, but they end up, you know, a week later it's just a spot on the sidewalk. Even bugs

[1:33:21] won't touch a McDonald's hamburger. >> And then months later it's it looks like it just came out of the package. >> Yeah. >> And Europeans can't understand how we eat like that. >> Yeah. >> Like the their laws are different. McDonald's can't do that in in European countries. >> Yeah. Let's look at the ingredients right here. The difference between uh McDonald's Europe and um McDonald's America. 10 plus ingredients versus four ingredients. >> Wow. So, the US has 10 plus ingredients and yeah, Europe has four uh ingredients in the US. Potatoes, vegetable oil, uh

[1:33:54] hydrogenated soybean oil, natural beef flavor, wheat and milk derivatives, dextrose, sodium acid, f pyroso, pyroate, pyro, and salt. >> Pyrophosphate. >> Pyrophosphate. Thank you. And then Europe has potatoes, non-hydrogenated oil, uh, rape cedar, sunflower, and dextrose. >> And look below that, contains hydrogenated oils, beef flavoring, and TBHQ, which are banned restricted in EU. [laughter] These are for the French fries. It says

[1:34:25] contains hydrogenated oils, beef flavoring, TBHQ. Uh, and then it says for Europe that those are those exactly things are banned and restricted in the EU. Um, what about the burger? Yeah. What does it say? The US beef is 100% pure beef. The additives several hundred additives. Several hundred additives >> prohibited in EU. And uh, let me see. Europe says 100%

[1:34:56] beef from British Irish farmers. No hormone treated beef. And then uh, the additives are stricter quality control and fewer additives. >> Look at look at the big big mac. The special sauce on the Big Mac contains HFCS, zantham gum, propyline, glycol, algenate, and caramel color. What the [ __ ] Why? I I just like at some at some point you have to be like, what happened? You know, um and while the Europe uh Big Mac sauce contains simpler ingredients list uh and 40 fewer

[1:35:27] calories, it says um the differences are EU food regulations are much stricter. Uh customer preferences and local supply chains vary. Um and the US fries would likely be illegal to sell in Europe due to ingredient restrictions. >> Have you ever seen what's in the McRib? >> I tell you what, I I loved those McRibs. >> Well, the black community goes bonkers when they come back. I know that >> you rush to McDonald's for McRib, but then when you see what's in it, you're like, "Oh my god." Well, yeah, dude. Anybody thinking it has anything to do

[1:35:57] with a [ __ ] animal, the McRib? But at a certain point, we are also guilty. >> Yeah, we are. >> It's like if I Yeah. It's our own laziness and we give in and we just go do it. >> That's a big part of it. So that's what's interesting too right now. It's like there's a real test of like >> what do I you know how much do I want to stand up for myself and but then also how much can I some people are trapped financially by certain abilities and restrictions deserts. >> Yeah. >> So it's [snorts] just kind of interesting. It's tough. Um, and I don't want to get all super dower. Um, what uh

[1:42:43] being kidnapped and then we just never see you again?" And he said, "Yeah, they offered to implant a a a a chip, a beacon that a ping in my butt crack," he says. And I said, "No, leave my butt crack alone." Yeah. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's fair. I think that should be our national anthem. [laughter] Um, how weary do people have to be of uh being spied up on today? Do you think like there's a lot of these new like data center projects

[1:43:14] >> and stuff like that that's going on with that? Um >> first let's talk Yeah. real quick about the data centers. What do you think is really going on? Because if you look at the the size of these places >> like we don't need that much. Like we're already using our phones. We're already have like um televisions like that you know there's already like a lot of stuff being stored um on servers. How are we jumping to a level where we need that? That's what I want to know. >> Oh, I have to agree. Besides the fact that they use massive amounts of water and oddly enough they're located in a

[1:43:45] lot of states that don't have a ton of water like Texas. Yeah. Or you go out to uh Lowden County, Virginia. Okay, we have enough water. But Lowden County, Virginia, you drive for miles and miles and they're just these neverending gigantic complexes of data centers. The proposed Stratos project in Utah is a massive 40,000 water in Utah. a 40,000 acre AI data center campus. Um, two and a half times larger than Manhattan. >> Yeah. [clears throat]

[1:44:16] I wonder how long the actual data how big >> and and just the data center requires more than double the current energy consumption of the entire state of Utah. >> Yeah. >> Come on. >> I mean, that's unbelievable. What do you think's really going on there? Do you have any intel about it? >> You have to assume that this is Intel related because look at the the companies that are involved. We're talking about Palunteer and Nvidia and Arais and all these these big companies that either took CIA investments to get started as seed money or um or are

[1:44:48] staffed by retired senior CIA officers. They're not doing it for their health. Why is the C so is the CIA now is spying on our own people. Oh yeah, that's what Ed Snowden warned us about. Yeah, without Ed Snowden's revelations, we wouldn't have any idea that NSA and CIA were spying on Americans, which is not just illegal, it's a part of NSA's charter that it may not spy on Americans. And this place in Utah, um, he and Julian Assange told us about

[1:45:20] Utah. This new compound in Utah that NSA has built has enough memory storage space for every phone call, every email, and every text message from every American for the next 500 years. >> Wow. >> Why? >> Just that building. >> Uhhuh. >> Then why do they need all these buildings? >> Yeah. Why? They're everywhere. What are they collecting? >> I'm not sure. And that's it's like what it must be. It's got to be all of our information. What would you do right now? Is there

[1:45:51] any way that people can protect themselves? Do you know? It's almost impossible now. I I wrote a series of books during COVID for Skyers Publishing, The CIA Insiders Guides to Surveillance and Surveillance Detection, uh Lying and Lie Detection and Disappearing and Living Off the Grid. They put them together and they're republishing them in the next month, I guess, >> um as one volume. CIA skills, tactics, and the ultimate guide to CIA skills, tactics, and techniques.

[1:46:21] >> There we go. >> But when it comes to protecting yourself from from, you know, the data state, you got to go Eric Rudolph or Uni Bomber and just own no technology at all. It's the only way to protect yourself. Otherwise, you're going to be scooped up in all this. Now, the odd thing is according to Ed Snowden, uh, NSA, CIA, other governmental organizations are scooping up all this data and they're just holding it.

[1:46:52] Why? Why are they holding it? Now, time was really until the immediate post 911 uh period where if the government wanted your information, they had to go to a federal judge and say, "We want TheoN's information, and this is the reason we want it." And the judge had to say, "Okay, that's a legitimate reason. I'll sign the warrant." Now, they just write something called a national security letter. They give it to your provider and they say, "Give us everything you have on Theoon." And they just turn it over. [clears throat] or they go to

[1:47:24] these new data centers and uh and just put your name in, your information, and everything pops up. They don't even you don't have any legal protections. They just take whatever they want. And that's legal now. They can do that. >> And it's legal now. How'd that become legal? >> In the National Defense Act of of 2016, National Defense Authorization Act of 2016. >> Wow. Yeah. Which also, this is a a pet peeve of mine that nobody knows about. It also for the first time in American

[1:47:54] history allowed the American government to propagandize the American people. It was always illegal for our government to propagandize us. >> What does it mean? >> Well, for example, the Voice of America, that's our government's propaganda news outlet and we beam it overseas so everybody gets the official US point of view. Okay. Back in the in the 80s, the Reagan administration came up with with these two broadcasters called uh Radio Marty and TV Marty to beam at Cuba.

[1:48:27] >> The Cubans try to jam them all the time. But what they mostly are used for is uh to broadcast baseball games in Spanish, which the Cubans love. Got it. I flew down to Cuba to to do a study. I did a study for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when I was the chief investigator there. And um nobody watches TV Marty. You can only actually get it in the waiting room of the US consulate. Got it. So if you're there to apply for a visa, you can watch

[1:48:57] a soap opera in Spanish. That's American propaganda. Nobody cares. The radio people like listening in baseball. So, Dish Network when it began when it began selling um services in Florida found that there was this just narrow swath along the shore on the on the west coast of Florida where you could pick up TV marty. That's illegal. You can't propagandize the American

[1:49:27] people. Got it. >> As Americans, we're not allowed to watch our own government's propaganda. So instead of telling Dish Network, well, you're going to have to like move your satellite or do something or pixelate it or whatever, said, "No, no, no. We'll change the law." And so in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2016, the Obama administration said, "No, no, we can propagandize Americans now." Wow. And so now radio, TV are no problem. >> Wow. >> Yeah.

[1:49:57] >> But I mean, we're always propagandizing. I mean, people put out propaganda all the time. Yeah, I went to Yemen in 2011 uh when I was with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. My fifth trip to Yemen. Every time I'd go to Yemen, it's worse than the previous time. So, I have a meeting with the defense atache. And he was so proud of this thing that he was doing, this SCOP. I hate that word, SCOP. I said, "Sure, what's your what's your SCOP?" and he goes, "We're funding a radio station here modeled on NPR

[1:50:29] and it plays American jazz and then it has a call-in show so young Yemen guys can call in and talk about the jazz." I'm like, "What the [ __ ] are you talking about? That's a terrible idea. Nobody's going to listen to that." And nobody did and they shut it down after a year. But that's that's what we're doing. But what was the goal of it even? to make people pro-American because they would be like, "Oh, Americans have jazz." >> Oh, I see. >> So, I'm gonna be pro-American now. It's like, what are you thinking? You You sit there like money laundering.

[1:51:00] >> Yeah. Seriously, >> that's what it sounds like. Um, how do I know I can believe you about anything kind of people ask you that all the time? >> Oh, yeah. People ask me all the time. Um, >> cuz who would believe anybody that is XCIA? Who would even, you know what I'm saying? >> Oh, that's such a thing with me. You know, generally I don't read the chats anywhere, right? >> Mhm. Everybody I talk to at your level, you Tucker Carlson, you know, Patrick Bet David Rogan, whomever, they never read the chats. Sometimes I can't help

[1:51:31] it. And I'll scan them. The only time I ever respond is when people say, "Once CIA, always CIA, >> [ __ ] You thought you thought all of that all up on your own, huh?" >> That's true. That's true. >> So I said I said to one guy, I said, "You know what? Let me call Ed Snowden and the sons of Philip Ag and Ray McGovern and tell them that you think they're all still in the CIA. >> So I went to prison for telling the

[1:52:02] truth. And I would [clears throat] I would do it again in a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. Nobody else has gone to prison for ratting out the CIA and its illegal, you know, programs. I was proud to do it. >> That's a good answer. >> Thank you. It's a really good answer. If you look, [laughter] here it is. And I can say this. If you really went to jail and everything, then it's a great answer. And if you did, >> I believe you. I believe you. But also, there's a little part of me that's like, if he didn't, then that's [ __ ] even

[1:52:33] colder that he's making it up and living it. That's the most CIA [ __ ] >> That would be pretty intense. >> But that's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, nobody in the world hates me as much as my ex-wife does >> from spending all that time in the CIA or in jail. At least jail you have a good excuse after. But she came every month with the kids and visited me in jail for two years. >> Yeah. >> And so why does she hate you then? >> Oh, no. That's that's all Yeah. Post story post. Yeah. I'm actually prohibited by court order from answering that question. [laughter] >> Well, that's I think that's amazing that

[1:53:03] she did that and brought your kids. >> She was she was great. She was great. >> A lot of wives. I mean, I think that's I can't even imagine it's a tough thing for families, especially if you had young children. Um, kudos to her for that. >> Yeah. >> Um, was bringing in prison kind of fun. >> Um, fun. >> No, I No, I wouldn't say fun. >> Like what was kind of cool about it. I've always wanted to go to jail. >> You know, there there's this old saying

[1:53:33] that you don't go to jail to make friends. And I made some lifelong friends in jail. Um, mostly named Gambino, Lucesy, Banano. Yeah. Okay. Genevese. >> So, a lot of good storytellers in there, I bet. [gasps] >> Listen, those guys were so honorable. I learned so much from those guys in just 23 months. >> Wow. >> Uh, lessons I'll carry with me forever. Real honor. It's funny. The Italians were the smallest. They call them gangs

[1:54:05] in prison. The Italians weren't a gang. This is I'll I'll use the word gang just for the purpose of this response. They were the smallest gang in the prison yet commanded the highest level of respect >> really more than the blacks and the Latinos. >> The blacks and the Latinos were always at at each other's throats and they had like for example it was Crips and Bloods and there was this uneasy piece between them just because it's not worth upsetting the apple cart and everybody goes to solitary and then gets spread out all over the country. For the

[1:54:35] Latinos, it was far more complicated because it was Burachos, Nortenos, Latin Kings, MS-13, um, Mexican mafia, and then the individual cartels. So, overall, there's one gigantic Hispanic prison gang called Pisces, and then within Pisces are all the different divisions. >> Gosh. >> Yeah. And the Pisces, if you were Hispanic, you were automatically in Pisces, whether you liked it or not. And you had to work out every single day.

[1:55:08] >> Oh, that's pretty good. >> For the coming race war with the blacks, >> right? And the whites are like, uh, we have nothing to do with this. >> Yeah. I just want to I would just want to do it just to get in shape. But >> yeah. Yeah. >> Sometimes you need motivation. >> We had we had Aryan Brotherhood. >> What's that? What are they doing? What are they up to? >> You know, Aryan Brotherhood of Texas is far more violent than Aryan Brotherhood. And they're not It says right there. They're not connected. Um, I never met anybody from the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. Aryan Brotherhood at a low

[1:55:38] security prison just wants to sort of, you know, go along to get along. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You stay out of my way. I'll stay out of yours. My very first day in prison, my very first hour in prison when the when the guard dropped me off in my cell, the only thing he said to me the whole time I was, you know, checking in and getting processed was, "If somebody comes into your cell uninvited, that's an act of aggression." And I said, "Great. Thank you. I've been here 40 minutes. I'm going to get my ass

[1:56:09] kicked now." >> Sure enough, as soon as he left, these two guys walked into my cell. Just walked right in. One of them had a swastika that took up his entire neck and then came up onto his face and the other one had [ __ ] you tattooed on his eyelids. >> Oh yeah, that check. I mean that's Yeah. >> And so I jump up. I go, "What do you want?" >> Cuz I thought, you know, if I'm going down, I'm taking one of them down with me at least. What do you want? >> And the the one with the swastika says, "You the new guy?" I go, "Yeah." So

[1:56:40] >> this [laughter] is like a This sounds like a story from like the 1940s. >> Awful. I I said in my second book, "Prison is a combination of seventh grade, the Lord of the Flies, and a mental institution." And it's set in the 1950s. >> That's hilarious. >> So I go, "What do you want?" He's he goes, "You the new guy?" I said, "Yeah, so." And he goes, "I'm standing there like this." He goes, "You a" And I go, "No, I'm not a He says," and they were bummed out. "You a rat?" "No, no, no

[1:57:10] gays allowed." "You a rat?" And I said, "No, I'm not a rat. you a chomo? I go, I don't know what that word means. [laughter] He goes, chomo, child molester. I said, no, I'm not a child molester. >> That's good. >> And then he says, you can sit with the Aryans in the cafeteria. And I was like, oh, >> well, yeah, I guess I'm I'm with the Aryans now. But then a couple of months later, simple rules. >> I was across the hall from from a captain in the Banano family >> and he said to me one day, he goes, "Let me ask you a question.

[1:57:41] Why do you sit with those Nazi retards every day? And I said, I don't know. I said, my first day here, they just told me to sit with them. And he goes, from today, you are with the Italians. >> I said, it's about time. >> That was it. Yeah. >> Took you long enough. >> You got drafted. >> Yeah. But they were the best. >> Yeah. I bet a lot of good stories, dude. Any good story come to mind from somebody you like a good story you heard in uh in prison? >> Yeah, there's there's one. I'm actually You're gonna think less of me and I don't care.

[1:58:11] >> That's fine. I could tell you some stuff that would probably make it even. >> There was a guy in my housing unit who was a serial killer. He was called truck because he drove long-distance trucks from the east coast to the west coast and he would pick up prostitutes at uh >> truck stops and he would rape them and murder them, drive them a couple of hundred miles down the highway and then dump the bodies out. So >> the cops estimated that he killed 14. It was probably more than that, but um he

[1:58:41] strangled one and she survived and she was able to give the cops the license number. Now this was in the days before DNA training, did DNA testing. >> So this guy >> before DNA testing. >> Yeah. This was in the 70s. >> Oh, he'd been in for a long time. >> He was doing life. >> Got it. >> So um for reasons that were never clear to me, this guy constantly sought my approval. He was full of [ __ ] He would come up. He had the worst breath because he had just these blackened rotten nubs where his that used to be his teeth. And he was saying [snorts] [ __ ] dicks all

[1:59:12] day. It was awful. Awful. He goes, "You CIA?" And I said, "Yeah, I used to be." He goes, "I did work for the CIA. I ran a shrimp boat full of weapons to Angola." I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here." I didn't know he was a serial killer. I go, "Get the [ __ ] out of here. Shrimp boat to Angola. Have you ever been on a shrimp boat?" and I walked away. [snorts] People are looking at me like, "Are you crazy? Do you know who that is?" Well, I didn't know who it was. So, um, instead of making him mad, it just made

[1:59:42] him more actively seek my approval. >> So, I'm a big Pittsburgh Steelers fan. >> Oh, yeah. >> And, um, he would say, "Hey, John, the Steelers are the game of the featured game of the week. I saved you a seat in the TV room." I'm like, "Ah, thanks, Truck." Like, okay. John, uh, I I know you listen to classic rock. there's a new classic rock station 1600 AM. You should check it out. I'm like, okay, thanks, Truck. In the meantime, there's this guy we called Cat in the Hat. Because he had this oddly elongated

[2:00:13] head, like a birth defect, kind of giant Cat in the Hat head, and he comes up to me one day and he said, "Hey, I heard you had a an empty bunk in your in your cell. I want to move into your cell. I heard it's a good cell." And I said, "Well, not so fast, buddy." I said, "We don't allow any pedophiles in our cell and no rats." I said, 'What's your crime? He goes, "Murder for hire and no." I don't even care about that. >> Yeah, the other guys I can't speak for the other guys. >> Yeah, I was trying to like I was trying to be a part of the group, you know, like go on, go on. [laughter]

[2:00:44] So, uh, so he says, uh, I murder for hire. I said, I don't think I like that any better than the pedophiles of the rats. What What were the circumstances? And he said, I owed the mob a lot of money, hundred,000 in gambling. I couldn't pay it. So, I took out a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitman to kill him and uh and the hitman got uh got caught. I said, "Let me think about it." Well, think about it. I went straight to the law library and I looked up his case. And that wasn't it at all. It was true. He

[2:01:15] owed the mob 100,000. He took out the life insurance policy. He hired the hitman. He got caught because of course he's going to get caught. Where the where's the first place the cops are going to go? >> Where the money went. and he ratted out the hitman so that he wouldn't get the federal death penalty. Instead, he got 20 years. So, I said, "No rats in the room." So, he was mad at me. Anyway, one day Jake Tapper comes up to the prison to interview me and I get called down to

[2:01:45] the lieutenant's office. Normally, if you're called down the lieutenant's office, it's to go to solitary. If you come back, usually it's because you ratted somebody out. Well, I went down there to sign the the waiver so I could give Jake Tapper the interview. So, I'm sitting in the TV room next to Truck. Truck was very, very sensitive about being called a Chomo cuz that girl that he strangled was 16, which technically made him a Chomo. Right. Right. So, Truck's sitting here. I'm sitting here. Right here is Cat in the Hat with his back toward me. He's on the

[2:02:17] computer. There's like this internal internet, not internet, internal email system. He doesn't see me. I'm sitting 18 in away from him. And then he says to the guy next to him, "Do you hear? Kiryaku got called down to the lieutenants office." He goes, "That guy's a [ __ ] rat. He went down there to rat us out." And I just sat there watching the game. And then Truck says, "That [ __ ] guy just called you a rat." And I said, "An hour ago, I heard him call you a cho." Which was a total lie. I just made it up. He didn't say a

[2:02:49] single word. He just stood up, walked over here, and beat this guy almost to death. They had to land a helicopter in the yard to lifellight Cat in the Hat to Pittsburgh. >> They gave truck five more years and Cat Scan in the Hat, huh? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's Cat Scan in the Hat. See? [clears throat] How come I didn't think of that? Cuz I'm not a comedian. I should have put that in my book. >> I don't know. Is there any real value in me thinking of that? That's a good question. I don't 6 weeks later, Cat in the Hat is finally released from the

[2:03:19] hospital. He comes, he's all [ __ ] up still. And um and he's like this. Somebody had told him what had happened. He he goes, "I I wanted to say I'm sorry for calling you a rat. I should never have said that." And everybody is stops to look to see what I'm going to say. Well, what am I going to say? Ah, forget it. It's all water under the bridge. I go, "Listen, look at me. Look at me." And he lifts his head up and I said, "So help me God. If I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again, you're dead

[2:03:51] and there won't even find you." I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So everybody's like, "Ah, the CIA guy's tough after all." But I said in the book, one of my rules that I learned at the CIA, let others do your dirty work. And then I get called down to the lieutenant's office again because as he's beating him, I sat back down. I'm watching the game. Everybody else runs. As soon as there's a fight, everybody just runs like cockroaches. >> Insane though, man. >> Right. So, I'm watching the game. Keryaku lieutenants office immediately.

[2:04:24] They always do it the same way. It's like a they're caricatures of themselves. >> So, I go down there and the one of the lieutenants, there are two of them, and he says, "So, tell us about this fight." I go, "What fight? What fight? You're going to be a smart guy now." I said, "I don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about." The fight. We had four cameras showing you saying something >> to that crazy person and then he got up and beat the other guy. I said, "I was watching the Steelers game. I don't know

[2:04:55] what you're talking about." Oh, you're not going to tell us about the fight? I said, you know what? Maybe I will tell you about the fight. Maybe it was you that started the fight. Did you ever think of that? Maybe it wasn't me. I was an innocent bystander. Maybe you put them up to fight each other. I think I might make a complaint against you. He goes, "Get the [ __ ] out of my office." And I wrote in my book, "Rule number one, admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations." >> And as I was walking out, I just said, "Exactly.

[2:05:26] Dang, bro. I don't even know what to think anymore." [laughter] >> You know, I think >> sometimes that's where you get people to that point. you're like this, you know, >> they pushed me and pushed me and pushed me and at sentencing, the judge sentenced me to a minimum security work camp and the CIA was furious that I got such a light sentence and I was going to a minimum security camp. So, the CIA intervened to send me to a media uh sorry, a low security prison, which is an actual prison with the double, you know, walls.

[2:05:57] >> They were furious that I >> Yeah, it was. When I was first charged, I mean, this is a potential death penalty case. Three counts of espionage for talking to ABC News and the New York Times >> because you were talking to him about about uh torture, right? >> Mhm. >> What cases specifically were you talking to him about? >> Abu Zuba. >> And they were furious because nobody had ever confirmed that there was a torture program. And I said, "It was illegal." Besides being immoral and unethical, it's illegal. You want to torture

[2:06:28] people, God bless, but you got to change the law first. We're a nation of laws. >> Which countries do you think had the mo the like the toughest torture programs over the years? >> Or do you even know? >> Over the years, like let's go back a hundred years. the Chinese, the Vietnamese, and the Belgians. The Belgians, if you can imagine, the the horrors that they perpetrated in Congo of of epic proportions. Um,

[2:06:59] yeah, the Russians, the Iranians, the Israelis, the United States. Is it weird like because we talked about the term terrorism now, but it's like it definitely feels like when we talked about it a few a little bit earlier, it's like it feels sometimes it's like how much is America like a terrorist state in the world? And I hate to say that because this is the country that we live in, but it's like I think at a certain point if you use it, you know, I don't know. I don't know. You know, it's got to be hard to figure that out. But it's like um [clears throat]

[2:07:30] you know it's like when do you use like fear tactics and and that sort of thing to make sure that everything's okay, you know. Um yeah, I don't know. It's like do you Here's my question. Do you think it's possible for America to get to a place uh where we're an actual peacekeeper or do you think it's possible to keep peace without terror? That make any sense or not? Yeah, that's a hard question. >> Good. >> You know, and and I think my answer has

[2:08:00] changed over the years. >> I believed for a very long time that we were the good guys. I was a true believer. That's why I worked there. We were the good guys and we still I think as people we still are citizens we still are. >> Agreed. Agreed. We still are. Somebody commented on a Facebook post that I made the other day like, uh, I heard you say that the United States is the best country in the world. You should be ashamed of yourself. I was like, I believe that the United States is the best country in the world. That's why I

[2:08:30] live here. Yeah, >> I could go live in some other country if I wanted to, but this is the best country in the world. We have problems. Every country has problems. But the reason why I'm as active and as vocal as I am is because I want to change the things that I disagree with. I don't think we should be a nation that tortures people or murders people without trial. If somebody is a clear and present danger, which is the language that's used in the amendment to 1233, okay, clear and present danger. They're

[2:09:03] getting ready to, you know, deliver the dirty bomb or, you know, whatever. Okay. Sometimes we have to work in the shadows. Awful. But it but it's a fact of life. But if you just send teams around the world to kill people whose politics you don't like, people who have never been charged with a crime, then shame on us. That's not what the founding fathers gave us. So if you want to torture people, you got to change the law. Ronald Reagan said we were a shining city on a hill, right? We're a a

[2:09:34] beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. That's the country I want to be. >> Same. That's what most people want to be. >> Exactly. >> Do you think we can get back to that place or what do you think? >> I think it's possible. You do? >> I think it's going to take a very long time, but I think it's possible. >> And I think we have to start by by trying to snap out of this mindset that we have to be the world's policeman. >> Yeah. Like why?

[2:10:04] I have relatives in Greece and friends all over Europe and they ask me the same question all the time. Why are you guys doing this? >> Like like did we really need to overthrow Libya? >> Uh Gaddafi rather in Libya. >> I think a lot of people are don't know what's going on. They just want their families to be okay. They don't want data centers. A lot of people do not want AI. They don't give a [ __ ] about it. It's not going to benefit them. >> Genuinely frightened. >> Oh, the Pope is frightened. And I'm trying to get the pope to come and I I offered that I would go to the Vatican and talk with the pope. I just want to wonder I want to learn about what he thinks.

[2:10:35] >> Um >> the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church just issued an encyclical 100% supporting everything the pope said on this. >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I mean it would be a blessing to get to talk with him and just learn. I just want to like be able to like, you know, share a message, be a part of Nike. Not me share it, but just be like, you know, just part of the telephone game of of helping or being a part of the message getting out if I can. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I do think it's important. We don't want that. Nobody wants it. 30 people

[2:11:05] want it. >> 100 people want it with a lot of power. >> Exactly. >> We don't want it. >> Exactly. >> Yes. >> Nobody wants it. I Nobody wants it. >> Yeah. There it is right there. cyclical. >> Yeah, I read about this. I've read part of the popes, but I haven't seen this new one. This is from the um Orthodox Church. >> Yeah, the Greek Orthodox Archbishop. It's uh El Potos is his name endorsing everything the Pope said about AI. Um you have a new podcast. Thanks, Sean, for hanging out. Sorry if I haven't had the questions at certain points.

[2:11:36] >> No, your questions were great and they cut right to the heart of things. Trying to get my brain back on track a little bit. It's just been like a long month. But um before you do leave, I know you have a podcast that you're starting your own finally. Thank you. >> Finally. >> You've been on you've been on all of them, so you have to start your own. And it's called >> the briefing room. >> Yeah. John Kuryaku's Briefing Room. >> John Kuryaku's Briefing Room. >> We're going to launch it in about four weeks. Um if you go to Real John Kuryaku on YouTube, >> it'll pop up saying coming soon. Please,

[2:12:07] please, please subscribe. And I have another one too called John Kuryaku's Dead Drop that's on Apple Podcast and Spotify. It's just story after story after story and it's it's been actually very popular. Been very lucky. We've gone up to number five in the history category worldwide. >> Oh, it's exciting. >> It's really Yeah, very exciting. >> Yeah, it's an exciting time. I mean that's one thing that we also have to remember is like sure things seem this way and that way but also it is an ex like if you can see excitement as like

[2:12:38] being of all things and not just things that seem positive but things that could seem >> um to be decided then there is a lot of excitement and so that's like a nice way to think about things. >> Agreed. Um, and you this your book, The Ultimate God of CIA, skills, tactics, and techniques. Is there a basic one you can give us out of the book, man, that's just something that you can notice about people when >> Yeah, the one the the part that I'm proudest of in this book is the section on surveillance and surveillance

[2:13:08] detection. I took it so seriously that I actually became a surveillance instructor at the CIA for the last uh two years that I was at headquarters. Um, I'll tell you something that happened to me when I was in Pakistan. I was always very very very careful about my own personal security. And um I noticed one day I was staying at a at a guest house, a little 14 room guest house. And uh I noticed one day there's a guy

[2:13:39] in a motorcycle. He's trying really hard to stay in my blind spot. And the only reason I even noticed him was he had a red motorcycle helmet on. And nobody in Pakistan wore motorcycle helmets. I don't even know where you would buy a motorcycle helmet. So I was like, "Huh, that's funny." I speed up, he speeds up. I slow down, he slows down. I change lanes, he changes lanes. I'm like, "Oh, this this isn't good." I get to the entrance to the diplomatic quarter, which was the part of town where all the embassies were, and he breaks off. Well, I work like 14, 15, 16 hours every single day. I get to work when it's

[2:14:10] dark. I leave work when it's dark. And so I pull out of the diplomatic quarter and the guy's on me again. And I was like, "Oh, this is definitely not good." I was worried about it all night. So the next morning, I get up at 5:00 in the morning and I'm taking a different route to work every day. I'm leaving at a different time every day. My routes to work don't make any sense >> just to make sure I'm not being followed. And now twice I am being followed. There's a definition of surveillance at the CIA. It's multiple sightings at time and distance. So you

[2:14:41] see the person more than once at different times of the day and at different places. So, we have a database. So, I put in the database when I first arrive. I think I'm under surveillance. It's a motorcycle. Here's the license number. This is a description of the guy. He's wearing a red helmet. Next day, I get up at 5:00 in the morning. I just open the door, a crack. I look up and down the street. I don't see anybody. So, they they had assigned us these like poles, these retracting poles with a mirror on the bottom. So, I look under my car. I don't see any

[2:15:11] explosives or tracking devices or anything. So, you got to be careful, you know. So, I get in the car. I go like two blocks and the guy's on me again. So, I finally get to the office and um I waited for the security officer to come in and I said, "Listen, I'm under surveillance. I'm 100% sure I'm under surveillance." I told him about the three sightings. He's like, "Oo, this isn't good." I said, "I know." He said, "We have to wait until the chief comes in." So, finally the chief comes in around seven. And I said, "I'm under

[2:15:43] surveillance, 100% certain." So I explained to him the three different sightings. And he's like, "Well, you know what you have to do." And I said, "I I know." He goes, "You never popped your cherry that way, did you? Let's shoot somebody." >> Uhhuh. And I said, "Nope. Never needed to." He's like, "Well, we're going to have we're going to have teams out there. Don't worry. We're going to have guys all around you. You're not going to be alone." I'm like, "Okay, all right." I was very worried. So, I get back to my

[2:16:14] office. My office, it was me. I was the only staff officer and six retirees who had all been in the senior intelligence service. Every one of the six had either been the chief or deputy chief of Neareastern operations. One had been the assistant deputy director of the CIA, >> but they all came back after 9/11 for patriotic reasons. But if you're a contractor, you can't be the chief. So, they all worked for me, right? And word got around. They're like, "Don't worry, buddy. We're all going to be out there.

[2:16:44] Don't worry about a thing." I'm like, "I'm very worried." That afternoon, I have a meeting at a safe house that we shared with the Pakistani intelligence service. We interrogated a prisoner. And I get up to leave and I don't know what possessed me to stop. And I turned and I said, "General Muhammad, are you following me?" And he says, "No." Why? I said, "Because I'm under surveillance. I'm 100% sure that I'm under surveillance and I'm going to kill the guy this afternoon." And he's like, "No, it's not

[2:17:17] us. I never saw him again." >> So weeks later, we heard that a bunch of them were sitting around the table and one of them said, "The new guy, Kiryaku, he's a nice guy." And everybody's like, "Yeah, he's a very nice guy." And then one of them said, "You know what? Nobody's that nice. He's probably being nice just to to trick us into a sense of complacency. We don't know what he's doing when he's not here. He's probably

[2:17:47] spying on us. I wasn't. But they put the worst surveillance officer in the entire Pakistani intelligence service on me. So instead of two blocks back, he's right there in my blind spot. And it was only because I stopped before I got to the door that afternoon and asked General Muhammad >> if they were following me. If >> that's the only reason that guy's not in the ground today. >> I was going to kill him that afternoon. Oh yes, I was. >> Dang, John about to pop off.

[2:18:18] >> I was convinced he was going to kill me. >> That big guy. >> Mhm. >> That's crazy, bro. >> Dang, dude. I think everybody wants to shoot somebody, but they don't let you. I worked with a guy, great friend, go to the same church, from the same men's group. >> They don't let you. >> And he's a psychiatrist. [laughter] Sorry, you made me laugh. He's a psychiatrist. And he said to me, "I find it fascinating that you don't have PTSD." And I said, "Is that good or bad?" He said, "From a psychiatric point of view." And I said, "Yeah." He goes, "Not

[2:18:49] good." I said, "I wasn't afraid of those people, Steve. I was not afraid of them." Yeah. It is interesting, man. the things that we hold, what's going on inside of us, you know, how it comes out, what gets figured out, >> you know, >> you just never know. You never know what's going to bother you. You never know what's going to stick in your mind and bother you and fester for years. It happens. >> Yeah. The stories, man, ain't about just making a story, you know? I mean, you seem like a kind of guy that likes to make a story, you know?

[2:19:20] >> I like telling these stories and people say >> and living a story, though. I mean, >> oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, listen. I'm an adrenaline junkie. I don't know what I would do if I didn't have these stories in my past. I'd be like, "Oh my god." My first wife, she's like, "I want to move back to Ohio and I want you to sell car insurance with my cousin Dean." I said, "I would rather cut my throat than move to Ohio and sell insurance with your cousin. >> I'd rather join the Aryan Brotherhood in prison." >> Seriously. Seriously. >> And you did. And I did. >> So I take a look [laughter] insurance next time. >> Yeah. Next life.

[2:19:51] >> John, tell your son I said what's up. That you mentioned on the way in. >> Thank you, Max. Max telling myself what's up. And uh is Kiraaku is it Greek? >> Greek. >> Was thinking about that. Um you have the new book, you have the new podcast. Thank you so much for your time, brother. >> Thank you. Thanks for the invitations. Great. >> Great to meet you. You too, man. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. >> Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I [music] must be corner stone. Oh, but when I [music] reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I

[2:20:24] found. I can feel it in my [music and singing] bones. But it's going to take