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[02:36] Starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly, with Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman Now streaming only on Paramount Plus This podcast, it's accosted in touchstone production I've talked a lot over the years about food in prison I hate to even call it food, to tell you the truth It was slop On my very first full day in prison, it was a Friday One of the Italians with whom I became very friendly, Pete Calabrese Mentioned offhandedly that it's Friday, that means it's fish day
[03:08] And I responded by saying, oh great, I love fish And he said, oh, don't eat this fish We call it sewer trout and it's not fit for human consumption Well, he and I walked down to the chow hall together And what I saw was something that I'll never forget The guys in the chow line were slopping the slop onto your tray But behind them were boxes, boxes of fish And on the side of these boxes, every one of them It was clearly marked Alaskan cod, product of China
[03:42] Feed use only, not for human consumption And that's what they were putting on our plates I looked at Pete, he said, I told ya And so I never, ever, ever ate the fish I've also talked about another incident that happened about halfway through my sentence Where every Wednesday night was so-called taco night And excuse the filthy thing I'm gonna say I once threw away the entire taco And the warden saw me throw the whole thing away
[04:12] And he said, in the old days you could get written up for that And I responded, I've eaten ass that tasted better than this taco What do you do if you can't eat the food? If you won't eat the food? If you shouldn't eat the food? If the food is gonna make you sick? I'm John Kiriakou Welcome to Dead Drop What Makes a Spy Tick? This is episode 10 in our series Doing Time Like a Spy And as always, we thank you for listening We thank you even more for liking, rating, reviewing And commenting on the podcast on whatever platform you happen to be listening to it
[04:47] Prison food is institutional food That other institutional food laughs at No, that's actually not true, it sneers at it And with good reason The prison authorities don't want to spend a single dollar more than they have to Fold in a bunch of competing interests Plenty of corruption and greed And the result is a hellish jambalaya of gastronomic awfulness There was one incident where for taco night, they accidentally fed us dog food The reason we know that is that the warden, months after the fact, sent everybody a memo saying
[05:23] Hey, sorry, but a couple of months ago on taco night, we accidentally fed you dog food It's not our fault, the packaging was mixed up at the meat plant Yeah They labeled dog food as ground beef and they labeled the ground beef as dog food The shame is not even that we were fed dog food The shame is that we were fed dog food and we couldn't even tell the difference So what did we do? We relied on people like our guest tonight, Joey Castlell
[05:56] Joey Castlell was one of the finest, I'm going to call him chefs at FCI Loretto A lot of guys cook, the Mexicans all cook, right? You have a trash can of water, you throw in a live electrical wire called a stinger It immediately brings the water to a boil, you put some food in a plastic bag Next thing you know, you've got a gourmet meal The Mexicans ate to survive We ate, and I say we, I'm including myself with the Italians
[06:28] We ate as a culinary experience Yes Joey, welcome, good to have you Thank you, John Joey, walk us through this man When I first saw a stinger, I unplugged it I said, oh my God, what a health hazard This is a live electrical wire, and the Mexicans are like, are you out of your mind? We're making dinner I didn't know what the heck they were doing But then when you cooked, when Mark Lanzalotti cooked It was like being in a restaurant in Little Italy
[06:58] How did you do that? Walk us through it Well, when I first came to the prison, let me say this real quick I didn't know nothing about prison just like you Sure So I walked in, and this guy comes up to me I forget his name, a black guy, and he says, what's your name, sir? I said, Joey, and I'm thinking to myself, wow, nice people here They're talking to me So everybody's laughing, and I'm like, what are you laughing at? He says, we'll tell you later, just keep talking to this guy
[07:30] So I'm talking to him, he says, if there's anything you need, Joey, you let me know And I said, okay So then I go back to myself, three guys come in that were laughing And I said, can you tell me why were you laughing? He says, the guy is gay He wants to pick you up right away because you're new in the prison Well, the word got out to Peter Calabrese When he found out, he said, Joey, stay away from them guys
[08:01] If you find a Twinkie or a piece of gum or a lollipop on your bed, don't touch it I said, okay, Pete, I won't So I was learning little things here and there And with the cooking, I knew how to cook on the outside with the stove But like John said, the stinger I knew what that was, so I bought one one day Oh, you're kidding me, so you didn't know what a stinger was? Watching, watching, everybody cook, I said, oh, okay But the stuff they cooked was rice and the same things
[08:33] Yeah, yeah I cooked pizzas, I cooked managotti, I cooked spaghetti, meatballs John, it was two o'clock in the morning, John sound asleep I said, I'm hungry, I'm gonna cook I made, I think I made a pizza or managotti, something I made Italian So I crawled out, I walked to John's room I said, John, John, he goes, yeah, I'm sleeping I said, John, I got Italian food He says Italian food and he got right up
[09:03] I did, I did And this went on consistently, we did it all the time Yeah, how about the calzones you used to make? Let me talk about the calzones for a second So a lot of the Mexican guys used to cook And like you said, it was rice, rice, rice, rice With this cezon sauce, or not even sauce, it was like an orange powder That had no flavor at all, but they sold it in the commissary And so they would sell these, they would call them calzones
[09:34] And Pete said to me one day, why do you buy those disgusting things? And I said, oh, they're so filling and delicious They got all kinds of stuff in them He goes, it's not a calzone, it's a fucking burrito Those guys wouldn't know a calzone if it walked up and introduced it itself to them Yes And so I said, you're right And then you started making calzones and I said, oh my god This is an actual calzone, like from an Italian restaurant Made in a trash bucket, full of boiling water
[10:04] But wait a minute, I don't know if you knew this I never got, I got some of the stuff from commissary I used to get it from the guards in the kitchen Yes, I wanted to ask you about that Yes So I had a good hookup right there Especially when I got with the, can we say names on here? Sure, why not? We'll believe you later if we have to When I got with Nicky Carrazzo Yes I had to learn to hold nine yards Yeah, because Nicky was a very, very important person
[10:36] In a certain Italian-American subculture Yeah And very important person And as his status demanded He got the best of everything Including the best food Our friend Mark Lanzalotti, who was an absolutely brilliant cook I once told him, he fed me It was on my birthday, it was my 50th birthday He had a big bash for me I remember Remember that? I told my wife that night It was the first time I had smiled in nine months
[11:07] Yeah And oh my god, how we laughed our heads off that night But he made this gourmet meal And the very first thing he did And he did this every time he cooked Is he would pull out all of his Tupperware He would load the Tupperware with complete meals And send them to Nicky and to Pete And everybody else of that status Yes They had a crooked guard on payroll Who was bringing in everything that we needed You know, loaves of Italian bread
[11:38] White wine for the Marsala sauce We got pork loin We got beautiful chicken breasts And fresh tomatoes and fresh mushrooms And onions and all kinds of stuff But Bags and bags of pasta and sauce It wasn't just crooked guards bringing it in from the inside From the outside rather It was guards working in the kitchen They're supposed to be guarding the prisoners that are cooking the food They're actually stealing most of the food Or stealing the good food
[12:09] And then selling it to you Well, yeah, that's how it works And you know our money was books of stamps and mac rolls Right So whatever Nicky wanted pasta that night I go with books of stamps Pull the guy aside and say, listen, we want this We want this with this Within 20 minutes it was in my room When did you arrive, Joey? 2012 So you got there just barely before I did I got there February 28th, 2013 Yeah So when I first arrived
[12:40] I was there maybe a week or two weeks And one of the guards in the kitchen was fired And escorted out And Pete told me it was because He was allowing prisoners Working in the cafeteria to steal food And that was a very popular side hustle They would just go from cell to cell to cell Selling food for bags of mackerel or books of stamps But he would allow them to steal the food They would change for a blow job That they would blow him
[13:11] And then they could steal whatever food they wanted Yeah They walked that guy out And they allowed him to keep his pension Which was not cool at all But then they tightened things up And I remember they used to frisk us As we would walk out of the cafeteria Because God forbid you should have an apple In your pocket Or a pat of butter that you want to take back to yourself How did you get around all that? It was easy It was just given to me all the time I didn't have to walk out with nothing
[13:41] All I had to do They say, who is this for? I said, Nicky Go ahead Done Mm-hmm And when I brought it to Nicky's room I was looking for him one day, right? He called Chris You remember Chris? Yes Chris came down and said, Nicky wants you up there now to cook It was 10 o'clock in the morning I said, okay, I'll go start cooking the pasta Well, I'm cooking, getting everything ready The peppers, the onions The oil, everything So Nicky says, all right
[14:12] Everybody out I said, Nicky, you just called me up here to cook I'm taking my hour nap Get out and come back in an hour So I had to put everything away Come back and cook Oh, my God And when you were cooking in Nicky's room It was the same as cooking in your own room We're talking about a garbage bucket Yeah Full of hot water Brand noodle Everything he had was brand new The Mexicans used their dirty bucket The dirty Yeah At brand new
[14:42] We actually used There were four Mexicans in my first cell Yeah We actually used that bucket for trash Yeah And then they would just pull the trash out, fill it with water Throw the stinger in and make food Right It was disgusting Yeah Okay, so walk us through How do you do this? You got the bucket You fill it with water And then what? You fill it with water While you're preparing everything You'll put the stinger in Tie it
[15:12] And explain what a stinger is A stinger is Wires from an iron Or Yeah Whatever they can get there A lamp, yeah And it's square pieces of metal They would get it where the metal makers They had like a shop in there Yes, or they'd steal the faceplate Off the wall Yeah So it was two pieces of metal With something in the middle So you don't get shocked Well, I never got shocked
[15:42] But let me tell you Every time they raided us They took my stinger Yeah And I said to the guard I said I just want to tell you You know I cook for Nicky Everybody in the prison knows Okay We won't take your stingers no more So then Other guards would come They would take it Because they didn't know I had 26 stingers After they let me had stingers In my locker And I had them on the shelf Wide open Nobody touched nothing
[16:12] The respect we got Because of Nicky Yeah And I would just like to Go on I want to say something Before we get into anything else When I first came into prison Like I said I didn't do nothing I was sitting with the blacks You know I had the black side Right We should say In the cafeteria All African American inmates Sit on one side Yeah Every one of them On the other side It's divided
[16:42] And we talked about this In the past The front table Is what we call The good guys That's white guys Most of them are Aryans White guys Convicted of crimes That have nothing to do With child sex crimes The next table Was Italians on the one side And Native Americans on the other And then behind them Were all the pedophiles And the rats They had to sit together Yeah So go ahead So I had colored guys When I first came to prison And myself
[17:14] So they liked me You know Joke around And I was the only Italian Or white person To say the N word to them You know how they all say I was the only one to say that Anybody else They would shank them Yeah They loved me I'm that kind of person Me and you bonded real quick Immediately Yeah So anyway They said you come sit with I said okay Now I don't know nothing I see all these people I'm there for like Two weeks Three weeks
[17:44] Eating there all the time So then finally Nikki says What are you doing Sitting over there I said Nikki I just got here I don't know much He says for now on You're over here With the Gambino's You're with us Yes I said okay So then I'm Pete Selly now He says Joey No, no, no, no You're not with the Gambino's You're with the Bananos Yeah And I said Pete I don't know what's Way to go now
[18:14] I don't know You know Pete said The same thing to me I was sitting with the Aryans Only because the Aryans Told me to And then Pete said to me one day We were walking out Our cells were directly across From each other And we were walking out And he said Let me ask you something Why do you sit with those Nazi Retards in the cafeteria Those were his exact words And I said I don't know Pete When I first arrived They told me sit with them And then very dramatically He puts his finger in the air And he says From today You're with the Italians
[18:45] And then I sat with the Italians The whole rest of the time I was there When you first started Sitting at the Italian tables With us Nikki would always go I know he lives next door To you across the hall Is he all right You sure Joe He's all right I said yeah Nikki he's good I vouch for him He's good You don't know the stuff He asks me about you I believe it Because he asked Mark Lanzalotti Exactly the same question He was genuinely worried Because the guy Didn't know the difference Between the CIA And the FBI Right
[19:15] And he was afraid That I was a cop Yeah He said The FBI are cops and rats The CIA protected us From the Muslims That's what he told them Yeah And then I was okay after that I said he's a good guy Nikki he's a good guy He says all right then He's with us I said all right We're made men now Johnny Seriously right I felt like I was Yeah I'll tell you man That was a community The Italians I say all the time That the Italians
[19:46] In prison for stupid reasons Are considered to be a gang They even have their own suffix On the prisoner number 047 If you're 047 That means you're mob And it's not fair Right But anyway It's not a gang Anyway let's pretend For a moment that it is Right Of all the prison gangs And these are major gangs You got the Crips And the Bloods And the Latin Kings And the Boracchos
[20:16] And the Norteños And the MS-13 And this one And that one And the other one The Italians were the smallest And the most highly respected Yes And that was Hands down There were no exceptions to that The Italians were universally respected And another thing too The Italians were the only gang In air quotes That didn't have a shot collar And they didn't have a shot collar Because they didn't need a shot collar
[20:46] You had made men At any given time There were six, seven, eight of them And they did everything by consensus And we would all have to sit with them With the made men And if something was to go on If somebody wanted to beat somebody up Or everybody would agree That's how it worked in there That's right That's exactly right I genuinely liked and respected them Yeah I'll tell you a funny thing too
[21:16] I was an expert witness in a trial Last week I was an expert witness for the defense And this poor guy Was charged with six felonies All six of which Carried a mandatory sentence of life Without parole And I testified on his behalf He had a public defender And in the cross-examination All the U.S. attorney wanted to ask me about
[21:48] And he was mean about it And aggressive All he wanted to ask me about Was the Italians at Loretto And that was I with the Italians I said you bet I was And you said that they were honorable And I said and they were honorable They're all convicted murderers I said I don't know what they were convicted of It was none of my business I can tell you that in my dealings with them They were all honorable to a man Every single one of them In fact I'm still friends with a lot of them Because they were honorable
[22:19] And so in the end I'm very very proud to say this The guy was found not guilty On all six counts last week Yeah all six counts That doesn't happen very often But anyway I wanna get back to cooking You've got this pipeline Of real food Actual food Well it's not like you're sitting in your In your bunk Reading out of a cookbook
[22:50] So how did you know what to make How did you know how to plan What to make And what do you do If you're halfway through a meal And you're like oh crap I don't have any tomatoes Or mushrooms Or chicken breast Or whatever What do you do? I always had it We always had it I never was out nothing I don't know what to say It was there Whatever we needed Just like the movie Goodfellows That's how we
[23:20] Yeah I say that all the time Joe That scene in Goodfellows Was one thousand percent true We gave the guvarios Even the garlic And that it liquefies In the oil And they ran that scene Because it was true And that's how we cooked Every single day And I'll tell you what The Mexicans would use their ID cards To cut We had razor blades Yeah
[23:50] I remember you Every month For the prisoners who were too poor To afford Commissary They would give you a What did they call it The bag To keep yourself clean They had a name for it Anyway It included a disposable single edge razor And I remember you breaking You're very strong
[24:21] I should add I mean we're all ten years older now But you're very strong And I remember you breaking open The single blade razor And taking the blade out And then using the blade To cut the garlic That's how I started with the blade I don't know this guard's name I forget his name White guy He had long hair Oh I remember him He was a cool guy I liked him Yeah I remember him Walk by I heard the keys and the chains
[24:51] I said hide my stinger He says no Joe it's just me You don't have to hide it So he saw me with the little blade You cut yourself with it Yeah He says wait till tomorrow I had packages of big razor blades Unbelievable I said are you telling me to go Wack somebody or something Oh you cooked with this I liked him So with booking It just comes to my mind I can't even explain it
[25:23] I mean if I wake up in a Nicky wanted pasta Or whatever I would make the homemade sauce I mean they would bring me Yeah Kansas tomatoes The paste Olive oil It was amazing And I'll tell you what If I didn't have nowhere to live Like these bums at love prison I would have stayed I would have stayed in there Tell you the truth Cause if you ever go to prison I know you don't want to go to prison
[25:53] But if you ever do anybody Federal prison Go to federal prison Yeah go to federal prison I remember I've said this I'm going to say another Not very nice word But I remember three guys Sitting in the TV room Playing cards one day It was the middle of the day So everybody was away at work call I had a no show job Thanks to the Italians I had a no show job I walked in there for some reason And they were playing cards And they were in between hands So the dealer was
[26:23] Shuffling the cards And one guy put his hands behind his head He kind of kicks back and stretches He looks around and he says I got a warm bed I got free medical care I got TV I got three meals a day No bills He said If we had pussy This would be paradise And I remember thinking Oh man You've been inside too long buddy But They weren't even eating
[26:54] Like the Italians were eating We got to the point Joey And I'm sure you remember this My sentence was short I was in 23 months The last six or eight months That I was in I never went to the cafeteria Yeah I never did either There was no reason to Only on certain things Like a pizza's words Pizza's One night a week was pizza One night a month was pizza night Yeah And let me tell you We had trays and trays of pizza Trays they brought out
[27:24] When Nikki was there They brought out a whole big It was like a pizza tray With pizza stacked Everybody's looking at us like Wow Yeah We didn't have dough That's the only thing we didn't have Pizza dough Yeah So we would use the wraps You know the big wraps The Mexicans would use So I said Let me think of something here These wraps are kind of small Maybe it looks like a single pizza So I would lay four or five of them down And it would come out to a big pizza
[27:56] A large pizza So with the garlic I would chop the garlic Like on good fellows Yeah And I had a piece of metal And you would put olive oil on the metal It was like a little cup And it would heat up And you would put the garlic in it And it would cook it It would saute it And the sauce I did the same I used the cans of tomatoes I heated it up You put it in a plastic bag
[28:26] You put it in the water You tie the bag You close the bag And it steams And let me tell you The smell from my food Everybody would come to my cell If I was going to sell it in there For cash I'd have been rich today Yes The whole prison smelled like it Joey's cooking But let me tell you Sometimes I did sell stuff I said, let me sell stuff too Your line just went down The scramble starts
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[29:52] If you're enjoying Dead Drop And, of course, we hope you are Then, while you're waiting for new episodes I'd like to suggest another great Granular Story podcast From the Costard & Touchstone family Just the photographer with David Swanson Does for photojournalism What Dead Drop does for spies Pulitzer Prize-winning photojournalist David Swanson tells you stories His amazing news photos just can't
[30:23] What it felt like Being in all those dangerous places Like war zones and natural disasters Doing his job taking pictures Having been to a few war zones myself I can tell you this Just the photographer will put you right there On the ground, right next to David Inside his head, in fact It's a hell of a podcast And you can find it wherever you find Your favorite podcasts Or at costardandtouchstone.com There's a link in this episode's show notes In fact, you'll find lots of great story podcasts
[30:54] At costardandtouchstone Like The Donor A DNA horror story The Hall Closet Sage Wellness Within And the how not to make a movie podcast Who knows, your next favorite podcast Might be just a click away Now, back to Dead Drop I was next to a cell If you come out of your cell And your cell is to your back And I'm on the right in front of you The guys on the left in front of you
[31:24] They were mostly Mexicans And their hustle Their hustle was to steal meat From the cafeteria They mostly stole chicken And then they would go sell the cell Everyday selling chicken Or selling eggs They sold a lot of eggs In fact, they would put it Exactly, exactly They would put it in plastic bags So is that how you got your meat too Was it just from the cops in the kitchen Or were you getting outside meat as well?
[31:54] I wasn't getting it from any From the guys in there I was getting it from either the guards Or the prisoners that worked for the guards So they have good stuff That's what I thought Beef, turkey As soon as I got it, I put it on ice So it was good I remember a lot of guys Having those scrawny bony chickens From the chow hall And just keeping it on ice And then cooking it in the afternoons We didn't eat those bony
[32:25] You could really get a broth Spread it up and make something I don't know what they mean I used to sell my chicken We got chicken like every Tuesday At lunch or whatever it was I used to sell my chicken for a bag of tuna To some guy that was like On this protein only diet He was trying to work out and build muscle And he would buy my nasty chicken Every week He'd buy the tray Yeah, he'd buy the tray, exactly And then I'd go back to my place And eat your food
[32:55] Or go to Mark's and eat his food Yeah, we had some big bowls of food I remember the parties Everybody bring your bowl Joey, I used to say I gained 35 pounds in prison 35 pounds I remember you and I talking about it Because you showed me a picture of yourself one time And it was like Mr. Olympus Mr. America competition And then all of a sudden we got these bellies From all the pasta we're eating And the warden said to me one time
[33:27] He said, hey, you're sure putting on a lot of weight I said, what are you, my tailor or my warden? Yeah And then he walked away The only thing I didn't want to make in there Was the hooch No, I never messed with it No, I wasn't smoking cigarettes I wasn't doing nothing You'd go to the hole for three months For that something stupid Yeah, not worth it I remember the hooch It was mostly the Native Americans would make it They would steal fruit from the cafeteria
[33:57] And then ferment the fruit And make moonshine out of it A couple of the black guys did too They would hide it in the drop ceiling Of the TV room So that it wasn't tied to any one person But do you remember They found hooch in the drop ceiling During the NBA playoffs Yeah So they shut the TVs off That was the punishment Everybody got punished Nobody was allowed to watch basketball for the week Well, I don't know if you remember this Somebody hid the hooch somewhere
[34:27] And it was the bag popped And I don't know if it was the warden's office Or somebody's office That worked there That was high ranked All the hooch went down in that person's office Oh my God I don't remember that It might have been before you came The whole place got locked down But they found out who did it But imagine how stupid that person was To put it over Yeah, that's really stupid
[34:58] And the people who made the hooch Are the people who had long sentences Because of what they didn't care Yeah, they didn't care And it was like the guys that just Had to have a cigarette I know I'm getting off the subject of food But the guards in violation of all the rules Would chew tobacco And then they would just dig into their lip And fling the tobacco onto the ground And guys would collect the chewed tobacco
[35:28] Dry it out Roll it in toilet paper And then sell it for a Mac And people would smoke previously chewed Chewing tobacco rolled in toilet paper Because they so desperately had to have a cigarette Gross I was a heavy smoker with cigarettes I didn't smoke nothing in there But the minute I got out I don't know, I bought a pack So how, you've got a successful restaurant right now
[35:59] A successful pizzeria You post on Facebook pictures of your beautiful food Yeah How different is it now from when it was in there? Well different as I can walk out to the refrigerator And I ask nobody except my wife, she's the boss too so But it's just It was a A really experience in there But me and you and the rest of the guys We had a good
[36:30] We had a good in there Yeah I hate to say that You know, people ask me every once in a while If I miss it And I say absolutely not I don't miss anything about it at all Nothing Yeah But then, you know, when I'm sitting here with Joey Or I'm sitting with Mark Lanzalotti Good times Or Grant, yeah we actually We made it okay for each other Yeah I used to go down to Mark's cell almost every night
[37:03] Because he was cooking every single night And of course he would give me Just like you did Two or three times more food than I could possibly eat Yeah And so I'd eat until I was full And then I'd go for the second seating two hours later And eat again And put on those 35 pounds But the food was so good I told you this and I told Mark That I would spend $35 for this In an Italian restaurant outside
[37:34] That's how good it was You, more than Mark, made desserts on top of it How in the world did you make dessert? And what desserts did you make? I made cannolis one time for him He couldn't believe it He thought, where'd you get these from? The outside? I said, no, Nicky They had these little cookies in commensari But they looked like a shell And it looked like an Italian pastry Yeah
[38:04] So I said, let me see what I need for this now I gotta ask the guard So I need a heavy whipping cream Some kind of cheese And I don't know, something else Within, I say a day or two He brought it to me And I just, I put it there I would taste it And I just taste like cannoli So that made the cannolis
[38:34] Amazing We made cakes, remember the cakes we made? The cakes, I remember that John, the cakes we made They were like store-boughtin' cakes They were, they were like store-boughtin' cakes You made a flourless cake one time It was like a lemon cake or something like that That was ridiculous I was like, dude, you made this in a garbage pail? We even got lemons And we even got lemons You made lemon cake from scratch
[39:05] Have you adapted any of those crazy Those crazy recipes to what you're doing now? Not really, no That actually wouldn't make sense It would be kind of depressing I tell you, I go on TikTok sometimes And I see these people that just got out of prison And they're showing their family This is how we, and they're cooking Just like they, he would have a stinger and everything I wouldn't ever do that Bring that outside and do that You know what I mean?
[39:35] He would kitchen at home With a stinger and a plastic bag and the garbage pail I don't want to go that That's nuts Yeah, you don't want to do that But not to change the subject But I just got to say, again When I first walked into prison Two guys came to my room One was Chris and I don't know who the other one was Nikki wants to see you I said, okay So I walked up to Nikki's room There was like four or five guys
[40:06] I said, oh man, to myself, what's going on? Well, Nikki says, sit down on this chair I sat down Now the guys are standing here Nikki's behind me All of a sudden he puts his hand on my head And he goes like this He goes, I said to myself I said, I think I'm going to get something shanked Or something's wrong Should I run or what should I do? He goes, you're lucky I like you, Joey You're lucky I like you I said, Nikki, whew
[40:37] Yeah, it was crazy stuff that went on there Yeah, he was a very important And very scary guy One of the things that I learned really quickly Hanging out with the Italians Is you never ever wanted somebody to say about you You believe this fucking guy Then you knew you were on the list Yeah, yeah No, you never wanted to be this fucking guy
[41:07] Who was Nikki's cellmate, the old guy? Yeah, I remember it was Oh, I can't really Gait I just, I don't know, I can't remember Gaitano was his name He went by Gait The old guy Yeah, the old guy Gait, remember Jake? Sure The old man, let me tell you a quick story He was going back, he had life Yes He was a high ranked mobster too
[41:37] Upstate New York Yeah That life So one day, we're all in a room He says, guys, I'm going back to court I'm gonna overturn my life We're like, now he's 72 years old saying this Jake, we're so proud of you, all right Let us know what happens So he goes to court, comes back He goes, I did it They overturned my life They gave me 50 years I remember that We all, we all Yay Only 50 years
[42:08] Like a fake Hey, there was one guy from Upstate I won't say his name He asked me if I would write his appeal He had 30 years Yeah I said, sure, let me see your case papers And we'll figure something out, I'll write your appeal But listen, I did what they convicted me of doing I killed a guy Don't get me wrong, he says If I could, I'd dig him up and kill him again 30 years, it's not reasonable I was like, oh man, that's not the right attitude Eight, seven, seven, three, nine, three
[42:45] Four, four, four, five, I'm so fast, so fine Got another provider, leaving behind Thirty a month, gonna blow your mind Five, oh years, don't hesitate Like it in now, before it's too late Eight, seven, seven, three, nine, three, four, eight Time's up live See optimum.com for details Back to school is busy enough The last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first department
[43:17] Or just getting organized for the semester Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place Furniture, bedding, storage, decor Study essentials, all at prices you'll love With fast shipping before move-in day Get everything you need for back-to-school season Shop Wayfair.com today Wayfair, every style, every home What's next for you? You've got the pizzeria You've moved, actually, you lived in Connecticut
[43:49] Yeah, Connecticut You moved down in North Carolina So what's next? I'm older now, 58 years old I just turned that June 27th I'm gonna stay here I have a wonderful wife My mom has dementia I'm sorry He lived here, so that's why I came down Because something was wrong with her We didn't know what it was Then I came down and found out she had dementia Book her in with me I will not put her in a home, John No, you're a good son
[44:19] And we live here now I do my very best, I'm the only child So she took care of me all them years That's right I forgot you were an only child Now it's my turn But I'm happy to be out In New York, Connecticut Here is so peaceful North Carolina is nice Very nice Oh, wait a minute, John You know what we forgot? You're silly I don't know if we could bring that up Which one?
[44:49] Oh, that crazy guy The Afghan? John Oh, my God You gotta do something with this guy So John, just go out to the yard His name was Cher He had his arm blown off By an IED in Afghanistan This guy was certifiably insane Any psychiatrist in America Would have certified him as insane Yeah Because we knew he was insane We plotted to push him over the edge Just to get him transferred to another prison
[45:21] And be rid of him You were a major part of that operation My bunkie was Frank Russo He was the auditor general of Cuyahoga County, Ohio And he was actually arrested While he was running for governor of Ohio He would have won Frank was a natural politician But Frank said something When you and I finally pushed him over the edge And he lost his mind They took him to solitary And then they sent him to another prison
[45:51] Frank said, thank God We finally got him into solitary Because I was going to take a poop in his boots Yeah And he meant it literally He was literally going to poop in the guy's boots You did something to him That was so funny That 11 years later I still laugh about it When I think about it Now the story, John You say it better Oh my God So this guy was nothing but trouble
[46:22] He had no respect for anybody's property He had no respect for anybody's space or time You remember how hot it was In our housing unit Because we had no windows And so they had these gigantic fans And he would just like Pull his pants down And air out his balls In front of the giant fan And we're like, dude You're going to get shanked Doing that Right? Mutity is unacceptable in prison And you're just standing there Airing out your balls
[46:53] So we started doing things Just messing with him And making a long story short What you came up with Was so friggin' hilarious He was a very, very pious Shia Muslim I mean it's kind of a disconnect Being very, very religious And being very, very child molester Right So, yeah, it's incongruous Who could explain it?
[47:23] So anyway, he had this prayer rug That was his pride and joy It was like the only possession That he cared about John, I used to get sick of him Seeing him kneeling on that rug Choke him every day, John John, and you were so upset I said, John, we got to do something to this guy I said, go to the yard I'll take care of this, John Okay You did You took care of it You made me look completely innocent
[47:54] Because it was out of the yard Everybody thought that I was the one doing this stuff And I was doing a lot of it But what really pushed him over the edge was you So the guards were watching me They were going to catch me Torturing this guy Figuratively speaking I went out to the yard To kill time and walk around And you... Locker first Yeah, you stole everything out of his locker All of his candies All of his food
[48:24] His diet cokes You stole everything So he opened the locker And it's just empty He lost his mind Number one Then you wrote a giant Erect dick On the prayer rug Sharpie And so he tore the bottom It was on the bottom The bottom was just plain It was like a non-slip surface He tore it off and threw it away
[48:54] And then he said something that was so odd to me He said, at least they didn't draw an asshole There's nothing worse than the human asshole Nothing is filthier than the human asshole Well, that's all he had to say So I told you And then the next time he went out to play soccer You wrote on it Asshole you are And then you wrote underneath Yoda Yeah I don't know what stuff like that
[49:26] After John Before we killed him Yeah, we were gonna kill him And then he finally lost his mind I ran down to the unit manager's office And I said I said, Cher's having a mental breakdown So he called Well, the cops, SIS They ran up You could hear the keys jingling from a quarter mile away practically And somebody from medical And they cuffed him He was screaming, swearing
[49:56] He was gonna fuck our mothers He was gonna fuck our sisters He was gonna fuck us up the ass He's gonna shove his fist up our asses And that was the last I heard of him He was just screaming, screaming these obscenities So they transferred him, right? They got him out of town Yeah, they got him They transferred him out before I left Yeah, that's a way And what really pissed He had these two cousins Or a cousin and a brother-in-law They would come like every week and visit him And nobody told them that he wasn't in the prison anymore
[50:27] And these guys drove up And came all the way to the prison From Washington And they were like, yeah, he doesn't live here Where is he? New Jersey, maybe, I don't know Oh, those guys were so mad That's in the book too, isn't it? Yeah The book, right? Yeah Oh, man, we made his life miserable Yeah, I couldn't take that guy no more We had to get him out We had to For our own mental health, we had to get him out
[50:58] Even the Muslims Would not allow him to pray with them Right He was nuts And he was judgmental And he was cruel And he would call Because most of the Muslims are black Muslims They're converts And he would call them fake Muslims Oh, yeah, I remember Yeah And you're gonna tell these Totally ripped, stacked, giant black guys That they're fake Muslims And they don't know what they're doing
[51:29] And they're gonna destroy them And do you remember what we finally did Or you did You put pork salami under his pillow Oh, yeah Yes Wait, you cut it You cut it, I remember I did, I cut it I cut it into slices And we laid it out under his pillow And it was there all day And it was so hot In the summer we didn't have air conditioning So it was like 90 degrees in there We used to soak our bath towels in water Yeah And lay on our beds with a wet bath towel Just to try to cool off So that salami was cooking
[52:00] Fermenting all day under his pillow And I remember after he freaked out And they took him to solitary These black Muslims came to the cell And they stood at the entrance And the stain from the salami Was on the pillow in the sheets And one of them said They'd done him in with the swine Yeah Honest to God, if it wasn't for Joey And Mark and Pete I'm not sure how I could have gotten through it
[52:30] Yeah, because when you came in everybody was like Oh, the CIA, the cops Don't go near that guy The first like four weeks I kept my distance, I kept my mouth shut And I went to get a haircut And Pete was in there Getting a haircut Yep And I just started making small talk with him And he said to me Listen, I gotta tell ya I know who you are And you carry yourself far better Than I expected you would And I said I appreciate that I was trying to be as tough as I could
[53:01] I said truth be told I'm not afraid of anybody Which was bullshit of course But I said I'm not afraid of anybody And he said good, keep that up We were friends from then on I still talk to Nicky's main guy there George, I don't know if you remember George I remember George well With that raspy voice I talk to him all the time Excellent And I'm in constant touch with Mark And with Brett Which came up in that trial the other day Well, you brag that you're still in touch
[53:33] With members of organized crime And I said yes, I am And they're good and honorable men Which was not the response they expected They expected me to say no, no, no That was a lifetime ago I said yeah, I talk to them all the time And they're dear friends And then I turned to the jury Oh, I'm so proud of myself I turned to the jury And I said there was a crooked congressman from Ohio Named Nye N-Y-E
[54:03] He was in prison in Ohio Federal prison on a corruption charge He did 23 months just like I did When he got out of prison he said Nobody goes to prison to make friends But the friends that I made in prison Are lifelong friends That was true There are a lot of people in prison who are innocent There are a lot of people in prison who are guilty But who don't deserve to be in prison There are a lot of people in prison who are good And decent people And those are my friends And as I hope you now agree One of those very good and decent people
[54:34] Is my friend Joey Thank you again for sitting in with me, Joey I think I owe you dinner A really good one In our next episode we'll get back to the prison grind As my out date approaches I've got more reason than ever to keep my head down But, you know, it's still prison Prison rule is still applied Unfinished business that needed attending to A whistleblowing federal prisoner's got to do What a whistleblowing federal prisoner's got to do Until then, please don't forget to like, rate, review
[55:05] Or comment on the podcast It really does help Until next time, I'm John Kiriakou Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz Costart and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast And John Kiriakou, Alan Katz and Nick Mechanic Are its executive producers His podcast, it's a costume and touchstone production
[56:12] Try it free at MaintainX.com Back to school is busy enough The last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first department Or just getting organized for the semester Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place Furniture, bedding, storage, decor, study essentials All at prices you'll love With fast shipping before move-in day Get everything you need for back-to-school season Shop Wayfair.com today