[00:00] Welcome to When You Know, You Know. And if there's one thing that I know, Michael Cohen, is that deep down at my very core, it's what happens when the full relentless weight of the government comes crashing down on your head. Now, most people, they walk around believing in this idealized textbook version of the justice system. They think it's a balanced scale. But let me shatter that illusion for you right now. Because when the government decides to put you in its crosshairs, it isn't a legal battle.
[00:31] It's a steamroller and you're the asphalt. And it doesn't matter what the initial predicate was. It doesn't matter if the investigation started over a legitimate transgression, a technicality, or a politically convenient pretext. Once that massive federalist state apparatus decides that you're the target, the outcome feels predetermined. government. They have bottomless pockets, unlimited personnel, and a machine that never sleeps. You, yeah, you've got a defense attorney who
[01:02] charges by the minute while your bank account bleeds out in real time. Your life gets completely flipped on its head, literally before you ever set foot inside the courtroom. And the moment the news breaks, the court of public opinion, they've already passed its verdict. Friends you've known for decades suddenly forget how to answer their phones, right? Business partners vanish into thin air. Your family is subjected to microscopic scrutiny. And your entire life's work reduced to a series of sensationalized headlines.
[01:34] Mind you, the terrifying reality of being targeted by the state is that innocent until proven guilty, it's nothing more than a cute slogan that's printed on legal pads. In practice, the mere existence of an indictment, it's literally enough to destroy your reputation, your livelihood, and your sanity. They bring dozens of counts. They stack charges on you like Jenga blocks. And they pressure everyone in your orbit until the sheer weight forces a resolution. You aren't just fighting
[02:05] charges. Uh-uh. No. You're fighting a narrative crafted by prosecutors who have never lost a night's sleep over collateral damage. So when the government decides to come after you with everything that they've got, you learn the hardest truth of all that you aren't fighting to prove your innocence. You're just trying to survive the process. And I'd like to welcome right now John Kirku to when you know you know. I hope I pronounced the last name right. >> Close. Kiryaku Kiryaku. >> But that's okay. >> All righty.
[02:35] >> You and I would probably need a half a day to talk about all these issues because >> you mean how to pronounce your name. [laughter] You have hit on so many important issues right now. Everything you said is exactly true. The deck is stacked. The government has an unlimited budget. They do these things called one of them is called charge stacking. >> Yep. >> Where maybe you maybe you did do one thing, but they won't charge you with one thing. They'll charge you with 10 or 20 felonies. >> And the reason that they do it is so
[03:06] that they can turn around and add to the ultimate sentence. Right. Exactly. Right. If you have one charge, okay, what's the uh charge going to end up being? Uh 12 months reduced down to eight, then you're possibly out in four with good time and the 15% federal credit. No, no, they stack everything that they can. Wire a fraud, bank fraud, you name it across the board. Why? If in fact I had gone to tri because I I pled to a one-page indictment. Had I gone and followed through with the threats, I was
[03:38] potentially looking at No, this is no joke. 30 years. >> I was 45 years. >> Oh, you were better than me. >> And and I asked my attorneys, >> you win. >> I I made a final decision. The the Justice Department made what they called their best and final offer, which was for three years. Was it three years? So, it was 2 and 1/2 years, 30 months, and I turned it down. And my attorneys came to my house angrily, 7:00 in the morning, and one of them rushed in and said, "You
[04:10] stupid sobb. Take the deal." I said, "You're the one who told me not to take the deal. You're the one who told me I was innocent and we were going to trial." >> Right? >> And he said, "I just told you that to keep your morale up." Oh, >> and then the second one said, "Listen, if you were my own brother, I would ask you to take this deal, and I'm asking you to take this deal." And then the third attorney, I had 11. The third attorney, who I liked and respected, >> did your case last? >> Uh, year and a month, 13 months.
[04:41] >> Mine lasted 48 hours. >> Unbelievable. from a Friday 5:30 p.m. I was told if I don't come in and plead guilty to what they wanted me to plead to, they were filing an 80page indictment that included my wife. >> See, and they threatened my wife, too. And and I asked one of the attorneys, I said, "If I go to trial and I lose, what am I realistically looking at?" And he said, "12 to 18 years, take the deal." >> And so I took the deal, which ended up being 23 months. It infuriated the CIA.
[05:13] And one of the attorneys, the day before I left for prison, he pulled me aside. He said, "Listen, I'm hearing that they're really mad that you only got 23 months. So, you need to be very careful. They're going to try to set you up." >> Well, I beat you on that one because I got 36 months with 36 months additional of supervised release. >> I got the 36 months supervised release as well. >> Well, I do want to jump in >> because we're such dangerous national security threats. >> Well, sure. I mean, doing an NDA, I mean, how is it possible, right, that it's only six years? I do want to ask
[05:44] you this, John, because you gave years of your life to the CIA. Yeah. You caught terrorists, you [snorts] won awards, you did the job that they asked you to do, >> and then the minute, literally the minute that you challenged the narrative on waterboarding, because that's what this was all about. >> That's right. >> They came after you. >> When did you realize that loyalty only works one way? that the institution will protect itself long before it ever protects you. >> You know what? It was before I even left
[06:14] the CIA. I was I was one of 14 people asked if if I wanted to be trained in these torture techniques and I said this is illegal besides being immoral and unethical. I'm sorry to say I was the only one who said no. >> By the way, can you teach me some of those water boarding tech? Cuz some of the people that work here, they actually need a little bit of a lesson. You have to get a big jug. >> Is that what it is? >> I need a big jug. So, >> hey Joe, can you get me a jug? [laughter] [snorts] >> So, I said no. And then I got passed over for promotion. I had just captured
[06:47] the number three in al-Qaeda with these two hands and I got passed over for promotion. So, I went into the office of the deputy director of counterterrorism. I said, "What do I need to do around here to get promoted? Catch Bin Laden?" And he said, "The director said that you displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism >> because I wouldn't be trained in the torture techniques." I got promoted. >> How many years were you at the CIA? >> Uh, almost 15. >> Ah, 15. It's not not long enough. >> I realized [snorts] that this was this was a deeper split
[07:17] than than met the eye at first. And so I I knew I was going to be on the other side of this thing. But, you know, call me arrogant. I really believed at the time and I continue to believe I was right and they were wrong and so I never wavered in my position. >> Wow. Wow. Because then they charged you under the Espionage Act over information that actually never even became public. >> No. >> And you did 30 months. >> Yeah. 23 out of 30 months. >> Well, that's with the 15% off and the
[07:47] good time and all that. Meanwhile, people in Washington Yep. >> they leak classified information every single day. literally every day. And by the way, Trump hates that, right? I mean, you know, the leakers, it's always about the leakers. He hates that with a passion, >> but they leak it when it helps them with their careers. >> Yes. >> So, I want to ask you, is this really about protecting national security or do you think it's about making an example out of anyone who threatens the system? They did that also >> right there.
[08:17] >> Right. They did that also to what was the name of um uh reality winner. reality winner. Yes, she took it on the chin. >> You know, I I spoke to her many times, tried to help her through the whole process. >> Oh, that was generous of you. I think she's wonderful. And you know, one of the funny things about reality is she doesn't consider herself to be a whistleblower. >> No, >> she at all. >> One page. >> She hates the the term. >> Yeah. But they came down on her like a ton of bricks. To the point where not only did she get five and a quarter years
[08:48] >> for leaking one page, >> five and a quarter years, one page that did no damage to the national security, by the way, but she's still not allowed to leave the state of Texas, >> right? >> Which I don't even understand. >> Yeah. I I I don't understand it either. I didn't understand her case. I actually don't understand your case either. But >> can I interrupt you for a second? Have you ever heard of the book uh Three Felonies a Day? >> Of course. By Harvey Silverlate. He really hits the nail. >> I read that while I was in solitary confinement.
[09:18] >> Did the same thing. >> How many books did you read while you were in prison? >> You know, I actually counted them and it was an even hundred. >> I was 97. You beat me again. But I was only there for 13 months. You know, I was fortunate co actually helped me because as a result of co I have coorbid uh coorbidities that u really placed me in jeopardy. I was part of the first wave that was leaving. However, >> they had to put you in solitary confinement for 14 days. So, I along with seven other inmates were sent over to the bad side cuz I was at Otisville,
[09:49] the um the low the the camp. >> And um on day 13, I see all of the administration coming in. They have everybody signing documents. >> Well, nobody's coming to mine. And by the way, unlike what everybody thinks when you're in solitary confinement like um Shaw Shank Redemption, we weren't allowed out at all. I I was by myself, you know, there I am uh 247. Basically, they feed you through the door, assuming that they even decide to feed you >> and I'm not getting anybody coming to
[10:21] me. So, I'm kicking at the door. Someone comes over. What do you want, Con? So, I said, um, what about me? Like, you're not getting out. I said, why not? Washington pulled back your file. And I was like, what do you mean they pulled back my file? They're reviewing it. Well, how long? We have no idea. I was like, well then send me back. No, then you'll have to stay another 14 days. 35 days. That was the first time. Remember, I got remanded second time because I refused to wave my first amendment constitutional rights. >> As did I. >> Yeah. I want to move on and I want to
[10:52] ask you something. the um the second that those prison gates closed, >> none of your CIA credential mattered anymore. I remember when I walked in, there was a little guy, Chris Enil. He turned around, he says to me, I don't care who you are. I said, "Me neither." He goes, >> "Don't speak when I'm see, okay?" I'm like, "You asked me a question." He's like, "Um, here you're just 86067-054." I said, "Okay." Turn around. He's like, "I just want to get that straight." You know, I was like,
[11:23] >> "Congratulations, buddy. >> Why don't you just Why don't you say it a fifth time?" >> Yeah. >> Makes you feel better. >> Yeah. >> So, he goes, "I'll throw you in the shoe. I'll management variable you out of here and I'll send you off to SuperMax." Which they have the right to do. So, like me, you were just another another inmate even though you came in with notoriety. >> Yes. >> Cuz I know exactly what it feels like. What was the biggest lesson that prison taught you about yourself that nobody on
[11:54] the outside could ever understand? >> Nobody's ever asked me that question before. >> Nobody else knows what I know. >> That's exactly right. >> You know why? >> Cuz when you know, you know, >> you know, that's it, right? >> I I had no idea how tough I was. >> Yeah. >> You know, like you, I always kind of was more of an intellectual. I write a lot. I spent a an a lifetime in office jobs, you know, working for important people, both of us. I didn't
[12:25] realize how tough I was and how scrappy I was. Even my my then wife said to me, "They've consistently underestimated your toughness. You can do this." I was supposed to be in the minimum security camp. And when I got uh to the prison, they started leading me around to the back of the actual prison below. And I said, "No, no, I'm supposed to be in the camp." The guy laughs at me. He says, "Huh, not according to my paperwork. You're not." And I told myself, "Take it easy. There's nothing you can do." This
[12:56] was the CIA again. The CIA complained to justice that this was >> So you were not in You were not in a low? >> I was in the low, but not the camp, >> right? Oh, you were in low because I was in the camp, right? >> Yeah. >> So, uh, I told myself, "Take it easy. There's nothing you can do. If you say anything, they're going to put you in the shoe. And so I >> Did you ever go to the show? >> No, >> I did. >> You were very unlucky. Twice. They threatened it a couple of times. I got right in the warden's face one time and
[13:26] I said, "Warden, with all due respect, I've gone nose tonose with al-Qaeda, with Hezbollah, with the Iranians. And I'm supposed to be afraid of you, please." I said, "I lived in Yemen. That's a lot worse than your solitary in Lorettto, Pennsylvania. And he backed off. >> Yeah. In interesting because I came in in a very unusual circumstance. >> Made me very unpopular on day one.
[13:57] >> Yeah. >> Both in the both in the camp where I was at and also on the medium security one across. Why? Well, as I left my apartment, we were followed by about a dozen reporters. But I wasn't just followed by reporters. There were three or four helicopters that followed us. You would think this was an OJ. I mean, this was insane. They actually flew over and they were hovering over the facility where I was at, which was called
[14:27] Otisville. >> They were and that of course caused a complete and total lockdown. So no, there was no movement on either side. First time ever in first time ever in low um that they or or I should say the camp that they ever locked them in where nobody was allowed movement until I was ultimately finished being processed and then brought over to um to the camp. And it's interesting because the um administrator for the camp turned around and drove me over from the uh medium,
[21:17] says Alaskan cod. >> Oh, good. product of China. So, it's not Alaskan cod. And then underneath under underneath it says not for human consumption. Yeah. Feed use only. I never touched this stuff. >> Yeah. It's you can throw up from just the thought of it. So, I want to kind of finish by asking you this >> because millions of people are now watching your interviews online. >> Yeah. >> Hearing things that they never hear on cable news. Is social media finally giving people
[21:49] like you a voice? I know it has for me that the establishment cannot silence or do you think it's just turned serious national security conversation into I'm going to call it the next viral clip before everybody moves on? >> No, I think it's the former. I think that podcasting is the future. I'll give you an example. I did a I did I have my own podcast called Briefing Room that I'm very proud of. It's brand new. I've only done three four episodes and it's
[22:21] really taken off. So I I commented for a few minutes on the death of Lindsey Graham the other day. I got 158,000 views. MSNBC's commentary on Lindsey Graham, 50,000. >> Right. >> Uh I think people are tired of the mainstream media. They don't believe the mainstream media anymore. These these big outlets have an agenda and they're looking for people that they can trust, people who know what they're talking about and they have found shows like yours and mine. >> You know, my initial Mayor Culpa podcast is over 500 some odd million downloads.
[22:53] Then my second one did over 700 million. Now, you know, those I put to the side. Now we're doing this, which is, you know, when you know, you know, unleashed. And like you, it's it's really taking off. People are sick and tired. I know I am. I can't watch the news anymore. >> Let me ask you, too. When was the last time you were invited on to CNN, MSNBC, Fox? >> Yeah. Well, it's been it's been a while. Yeah, it's been a while. I I probably sooner now get on Fox than CNN or MS Now
[23:23] because I'm constantly criticizing them. First of all, there's back and forth cackling between it's all performance art. There's no real substance. They don't want to hear from people like yourself. They don't want to hear from people like me, people who actually have firthand knowledge of the situation. Rather, they want to hear from somebody who's going to stick to the talking point that they want. And that's why, of course, people on the left are now furious that, you know, CNN is going to be sold and it's going to be part of that whole Paramount deal. So why?
[23:56] Because you're going to now have maybe centrist or right [snorts] of center. I don't I don't And then look at MS now which used to be it's in a death spiral. >> Yeah. I mean their ratings are >> embarrassing. >> Well, John, it's really a pleasure to meet you. Pleasure is mine. Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much for joining me. Um this was fantastic. Love to be a guest on your we have millions. By the way, just so you know, I brought a little prop for myself. I By the way, I didn't bring it. It's always in my wallet. Instead of using my ID when I'm going, I
[24:26] pull out my old former prisoner ID card, right? Uh, I go nowhere without it. You know, people are saying, "Are you really Michael Cohen?" I'm like, "Yeah, [laughter] >> you have a really great attitude." I was so furious. I didn't realize how angry I was when I got home, but I It was literally the first thing I did was I shredded mine. >> You did. The only thing I realized when I got home is how much weight I actually lost. [laughter] Right, John? So [snorts] nice to meet you. Thank you so much. And thank you for everything you're doing. >> And thank you for what you're doing. It's important. You know, John, before actually I let you go, I understand also
[24:58] that you have a book that's going to come out. As you know, I also I wrote my first book while I was there. Turned out to be a number one New York Times bestseller. So, I wish you nothing but the same. Tell tell the audience about the book, what it's about, the title, when it come when it's going to be released. >> It's going to be released. I think it's uh August the 11th. It's called the uh the ultimate CIA guide to tactics techniques. something. Tom, >> the ultimate guide to CIA skills, tactics, and techniques.
[25:28] >> It's called the ultimate guide to CIA skills, tactics, and techniques. So, it focuses on surveillance and surveillance detection, lying and lie detection, and disappearing and living off the grid. But like you, I wrote a book in prison called Doing Time Like a Spy: The CIA uh How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison. I had to write it in longhand like I'm sure you did, too. >> I did. And um >> by the way, were those not the cheapest worst pens you've ever se? And they made you pay for them? >> Of course. >> And I wrote it in longhand repeatedly.
[26:01] The guards would seize my my writing and destroy it. >> I smuggled I had mine smuggled out. >> That's what I ended up doing, smuggling it out, which then caused an investigation. I told them to go screw themselves. And I won two literary awards. I won the pen first amendment award and the uh Forward Reviews memoir of the year. So it was totally worth it. >> You beat me again, John. John, always great talking to you. I really truly appreciate you joining me here on When You Know You Know. Uh, Unleashed. This podcast, it drops every single Tuesday, available wherever you get podcast.
[26:32] Looking forward to joining you on yours again. Oh, I can't wait. Great to see you. >> Thanks so much. Great to see you. >> Thank you. Thank you.