[00:00] The CIA cannot accept the fact that it was wrong. >> At the time that you blew the whistle and then wound up prosecuted by the Obama administration. >> Yes. They murdered a a prisoner during the interrogation and said, "What do we do?" The base office wrote back and said, "Dig a hole and put him in the hole." >> Cutting off your family instead of talking to them >> Mhm. >> is the worst thing. The person who's really harmed by cutting off a family member is the person doing the cutting.
[00:31] >> You know, my first marriage, we we got married too young. Then I have three children from my second marriage. My second divorce, I spent another million dollars. My first two kids, they're older. They're 33 and 30. They cut me off, it'll be 11 years ago next month. >> So, the what you just described in this case happened dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of times. >> began his questioning of me. "Well, you are a convicted felon." I said, "Yes, I am." "And you've been convicted of a national
[01:02] security crime." I said, "Yes, I have. And I would do it again tomorrow if I had the opportunity." Of all the terrorism cases that the FBI has investigated, only 1% are actual terrorism cases. The rest are just created out of thin air by the FBI. >> John Kiriakou, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
[01:32] >> My pleasure. Thanks for having me. >> a treat to have you on. >> Right. >> Happy to do it. >> A guy who um I mean, we've been friends for some time. I was an admirer before everybody else in the world was. >> Yeah, thank [laughter] you. >> I was early to the party, I can say honestly. >> it. >> Um have actually have just always had such respect for you and the positions you've taken and you literally put your life out there um and paid an enormous price uh for telling the truth. A true truth teller. And then beyond that, you then devoted your life to teaching
[02:04] other people how to be truth tellers and whistleblowers. And And so that was kind of, you know, before all the hummus stories. >> Yeah. >> That's the John Kiriakou that I knew. And And a person I truly respect. >> Thank you very much. Let's talk a little bit about This is going to be a different kind of podcast than probably some of the ones you've done. Because people have heard so many great stories and you have so many amazing stories. But I want to talk more about about you and your life and kind of the struggles that you've been through and some of the things you faced. Because we have known each other for some time. I know there's There's a lot to you that had to deal
[02:35] with a lot of pain. >> Yeah. >> Right? There's a lot of cool stories. >> an easy road. >> Yeah. It's It's been a It's been a rough one in a lot of ways. I want to go back to right around the time that you made the decision to blow the whistle on CIA torture. Right? And I always remind people, I just said it on a show the other day, only person who ever went to prison for CIA torture was the guy who told everyone what was happening. >> Yes. >> Talk a little bit about I mean, how is How have you processed that over the years? To The fact that that's still your reality. The only person who ever
[03:07] went to prison >> I'm a convicted felon. I'm banned for life from the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. And can't own a gun ever again. There's a mandatory minimum 5-year prison sentence if I if I'm ever caught with a gun. I had to ask the governor of Virginia to allow me to vote again. So I I have this thing hanging over my head even after all these years. You know what? That's I can live with that.
[03:37] >> Yep. >> What I have trouble processing is the fact that the bad guys all got away. >> Mhm. >> I was at the spy museum in Washington last weekend. A a asked me to uh he hired me to walk his family through the spy museum and sort of give, you know, commentary in each of the rooms. And there's one room dedicated to torture. >> Mhm. >> And who do they have running on this video loop?
[04:08] The torturers. >> Mhm. >> There was Jose Rodriguez, who was the director of counterterrorism, later became the deputy director of the CIA for operations. There were Mitchell and Jessen, the two contract psychologists who had come up with the torture program. >> They were They were the ones who worked in Abu Ghraib, right? >> That's right. >> Yep. >> Um and then off to the side they're like, yeah, and some people said torture was bad. >> Mhm. >> And that that actually angered me. >> Yeah.
[04:39] >> It bothered me. >> Yeah. >> Because here we are, all these years later, Congress has concluded that torture was wrong. >> Mhm. >> The media finally have concluded that torture was wrong. We've released almost everybody at Guantanamo. There are 34 people there after having 770 at its at its peak. And yet the CIA cannot accept the fact that it was wrong. >> Mhm. >> They just can't do it. >> Mhm. >> And as you said, I'm still the only
[05:09] person even tangentially associated with the torture program who ever went to prison. And I was the one who exposed it. >> No torturer, no doctor who came up with this program. >> Murderers. Bad Murderers. I remember I remember seeing a cable. It was the first time I'd seen a cable like this where the so-called interrogators went too far, which we all predicted they would. >> Mhm. >> And they murdered a prison a prisoner during the interrogation and said, "What do we do?" >> Yeah. >> And then
[05:40] the base office wrote back and said, "Just dig a hole and put him in the hole." And that was it. Like, >> how's that legal? Nobody ever gave the CIA permission to torture people to death. And we just dig a hole and pretend the guy never existed? But none of those people were ever prosecuted. >> Yeah. Not not one person who did this. And and just remind me on one other detail, the the two doctors you mentioned >> Yes. >> These are the guys who kind of created
[06:12] a lot of these techniques. >> Yeah, they created all of them. So, this is James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, two contract psychologists who had been psychologists with the Air Force. >> Right. >> And they were they were the ones that trained Air Force personnel in SEER, uh evasion, whatever it's called. Um it's it's what we train our pilots to expect to have done to them if they're captured in hostile territory. They'll beat you, they'll gas you, they'll do this,
[06:43] they'll do that. So, they reverse engineer neered it so that we could be the torturers instead of teaching people how to resist the torture. >> Wow. >> Yeah, and then they implemented >> it was all experimental, right? Like this wasn't based on anything other than their own twisted fantasies and and >> You're exactly right. >> creations. Right? >> That's right. >> And to your point, who even approved it? I mean, that that's there's a lot of questions about that, too, right? Still. >> That's a question that's never been fully answered. You know, another question that's never
[07:14] been fully answered is how did this even begin? >> Right. >> George Tenet in his memoir talks about someone approaching him at a dinner party in October of 2001 and saying, "Hey, there are these two guys you should meet. Uh they've got a really good idea." But Tenet doesn't remember, he says he doesn't remember who it was, he doesn't remember how it got approved, he wasn't sure did did the president sign it? Did the vice president sign it on behalf of the president? A lot of weird, important
[07:47] questions were never answered. >> At the time that you blew the whistle and then wound up prosecuted by the Obama administration cuz you blew the whistle during the Bush administration. >> Prosecuted by the Obama administration. >> Bush administration specifically concluded that I had not committed a crime. >> Right. But Obama was the was the Besides being deporter-in-chief, which nobody gives him credit for, he was the most aggressive US president in terms of
[08:17] pursuing prosecution of whistleblowers. He went after so many. >> He went after eight of us. >> Yeah. >> All previous presidents combined >> Yeah. >> prosecuted three people >> Yeah. >> for speaking with the media. Barack Obama in his eight years as president prosecuted eight of us speaking to the media. >> It's so fascinating that he gets this past still, right? >> You know, Ben, I've never understood this. Like you said a minute ago, deporter-in-chief, deported more people than any other president in American history.
[08:49] He had a what has been described to me as a Nixonian obsession with national security leaks. Nobody ever talks about that. You know, there's a book that was written by Mark Halperin and John Heilemann called Double Down. They wrote a book about the 2008 election and then they wrote a sequel about the 2012 election called Double Down. And in this book, they quote Barack Obama twice, two chilling quotes that I think people on the American
[09:20] political left choose to just ignore because it doesn't fit into their hagiography of Barack Obama. One is he says very matter-of-factly I never said I was a liberal. >> Right. >> Like, oh, really? Because he used to supposedly ran to the left of Hillary Clinton. >> That's right. >> And speaking about the drone program, he said, "I never had any um realization that I would be so good at killing people." And he just said it very
[09:50] matter-of-factly. He killed more than 10 times He's right. He's right. He's right. He killed more than 10 times the people that George W. Bush killed with drones. >> Yeah. And and he waged wars in places that George W. Bush hadn't even touched. >> right. >> Yemen became a killing field. >> That's right. >> Um and and for what? And >> What about the murder of American citizens who had never been charged with a crime? It was Barack Obama that killed American citizens. >> Yeah. And Anwar al-Awlaki his his 16-year-old son
[10:20] >> and 16-year-old nephew and then a week later his 8-year-old daughter. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like Barack Obama was well, he still is cuz he's still alive. But at the time that he was president, he was the most bloodthirsty war hawk president we'd ever seen. And even to this day, you know, people will think now obviously Trump's doing a whole lot of stuff with Iran. I don't want to go into all that, but to this day people would treat him like he was this Well, he was the winner of a Nobel Peace Prize. >> Yeah. Right. >> Preemptively. >> Yeah. Because of the in in anticipation
[10:51] of how great he would be. >> I was in Norway last week just as an aside. And we were talking about the Nobel Peace Prize. And all of the Norwegians, professors, journalists, couple of parliamentarians, they all just agreed that it's just a it's just a political sop. It doesn't mean anything anymore. >> Yeah. It's it's about as effective as the FIFA >> Exactly. The Peace Prize. Yeah. Exactly. >> So John Kiriakou is sitting in prison at this point which prosecuted by Barack Obama's administration and then you're
[11:21] in prison. How do you get through that? >> Ah. That's a good question. It's actually one that's never been asked of me before. >> Yes. tried as hard as I could to remain relevant. So, I had really good attorneys. And they they didn't stop being my attorneys when I went to prison. This was like an ongoing relationship. And they told me that I needed to write write write as much as I could write. And so, I began by writing a blog that
[11:54] at first appeared in at a little website called firedoglake. >> Okay. >> It was later picked up by the Huffington Post. It drove the prison administration crazy because they couldn't figure out how I was getting it out of the prison. >> Mhm. >> So, they started this investigation of me. I can tell you how I got it out of the prison. >> Please. >> I folded it in thirds. I put it in an envelope. I put a stamp on it, and I addressed it to my lawyers. >> Uh >> It really was as simple as that.
[12:24] >> Yeah. Because they couldn't read mail to your lawyers because it's privileged communication. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So smart. >> So, um Arianna Huffington picked it up at the Huffington Post, and it went crazy. >> Yeah. >> So, I capitalized on that by writing several op-eds for the Los Angeles Times in longhand on a legal pad, which they dutifully published. I wrote an op-ed for The Guardian. Um I was asked to testify in writing
[12:56] before the European Parliament. I did that, but I realized that people were actually interested in what I had to say, especially about torture and government transparency. >> Yeah. >> And so, I just I wrote constantly. >> Mhm. >> And it kept me relevant. >> Mhm. That that makes a lot of sense. Uh people end up in in dire situations, very dark places, right? >> Yeah. >> And and figuring out how to get out. Um there's a quote that's going around a lot on social media, uh and it says, you know, "God, why
[13:27] would you put me in such a terrible place? And he says, so that you know the way out when I send you back in for someone else. I I feel like you're a guy who's gone back in for a lot of people. >> May I speak to that? >> Please. >> Three weeks ago I was getting ready to go to Greece to participate in a conference there. And I get a call two days before I left from the federal public defender for the Southern District of Florida right here in Miami. And he said that he needed my help in a
[13:59] terrorism case. So, would I agree to be an expert witness in this case of a um of a young Muslim man who had been arrested and charged with two counts of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, two counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism, and two counts of conspiracy to murder a federal agent. Each one of those six charges by itself carries a penalty of life without parole. So, six times life without
[14:29] parole. >> Wow. >> I said, well, let me read the file and I'll get back to you. They sent me everything. This poor guy is a mentally ill, homeless man who happens to be Muslim. He lives in an alley behind a restaurant here in Miami. And um and he had a small storage unit where he kept his meager belongings. So, an employee of the storage company went into the unit, probably to rob him.
[15:02] And saw two things. He saw a baseball bat with some writing on it. So, and then he saw some childlike drawings. Remember when you were in fifth or sixth grade and you would draw battlefield pictures of people launching rockets at each other. Something the FBI later called schematics for a bomb. >> Oh my gosh. It's no, it's a 10-year-old's drawing of rockets, okay. >> So they the FBI the guy reports it to the cops, the cops call the FBI, the FBI takes pictures of everything and decides to reach out to
[15:34] this man through Facebook. >> Okay. >> And they said "Hey brother, uh we heard that you're Muslim >> Allahu Akbar. >> right? >> Yeah. >> And uh welcome to Miami and we heard from the restaurant that you live in the alley. Let us take you out for a pizza and a beer. They took him out for pizza, they bought him a pack of cigarettes. We're uh we have our own militia. It's called the pineapple militia cuz we live in Florida and we want to overthrow the government. Do you want to be in our
[16:05] militia? He said no four times. >> Wow. >> Finally, just to get them off his back, he's like, "All right, all right, I'll join your militia." "You know what we should do? We should blow up that synagogue over there." He's like, "Why would we do that?" "No, you know what? We need to do something bigger. We should blow up the New York Stock Exchange. Can you build us a bomb?" He said, "No, I don't know how to build a bomb." They said, "Just look at YouTube, you can learn there." The FBI ends up building the bomb.
[16:36] And then they pick him up, they hand him the bomb, he looks in the bag and they arrest him. And they charge him with all of these, you know, life-ending felony charges. >> Wow. >> So I testified by Zoom from Athens. And I talked about what's called the asset acquisition cycle. Spot, assess, develop, recruit. >> Mhm. >> They spotted this guy, he's homeless, he's mentally ill. They assessed that he could use money even if it's just for food, maybe a roof over his head for a
[17:08] night or two a week. They began to develop him. And this is the part that I really that that was really the most important in the case. Um I said that we're we're all trained to ingratiate ourselves with our target. You call him brother. You call him buddy. You call him cousin. You You spend money on him. Starting in restaurants. Well, this guy's desperate. He can't even feed himself. And then when you make him believe that you are such close friends,
[17:40] you go in for the ask. And you say we want you to blow up, in this case, the New York Stock Exchange. He said no no no no. Okay, fine fine. So, when the prosecutor began his questioning of me, the questioning was, "Mr. Kyriakou, you're just a common criminal, aren't you?" And I said, "I don't know if I'm a common criminal." "Well, you are a convicted felon." I said, "Yes, I am."
[18:12] "And you've been convicted of a national security crime." I said, "Yes, I have. And I would do it again tomorrow if I had the opportunity." That's what I said. And then the prosecutor said, um, "You've written that you remain close with members of organized crime families in New York." I said, "Absolutely true. In fact, I just spoke with one of them 2 days ago." "Why would you do that?" I said, "Because I have found many of them to be to be very honorable people." "And they are
[18:42] they are victims of something that you do, counselor." I said, "It's called charge stacking, where you'll take somebody who may or may not have committed a crime. You charge him with five, 10, 20 felonies. You wait until he's bankrupt, and then you offer to drop all the charges but one if he takes a guilty plea." And then much to my shock, the prosecutor brought up something that we wanted to bring up. But he said, "Isn't it true that you've written
[19:13] op-eds in which you said that the FBI is an organized crime outfit?" And I said, "Absolutely, yes. Most recently in the Los Angeles Times." And he said, "You wrote, and I quote, FBI agents don't get promoted by not arresting you, federal prosecutors don't get promoted by not prosecuting you." And I said, "And that's exactly why we're here today." >> Mhm. >> And I said, "Counselor, it's been
[19:44] my experience >> Yeah, you're making the case. I said, "It's been my experience at least every prosecutor I've ever met sees himself one day as the US attorney, as a member of Congress, as a candidate for governor, or occupying the corner office in the A-list firm making $2 million a year. So, yeah, I believe that that what you do is shameful." And uh And then he called me a criminal one other time, and the judge told him to move on. He had no further questions.
[20:16] Finally, the the defendant I'm sorry, the the federal public defender gets up again for redirect. >> Uh-huh. >> And he said something it just I I wish that I could think this linearly. But he said, "Mr. Kiriakou, uh you've been certified as an expert witness in this case. Who built the bomb?" And I said, "The FBI built the bomb." And he said, "Who provided the explosives?" I said, "The FBI did." "Who provided the detcord?" I said, "The FBI
[20:46] did." "Where'd the timer come from?" I said, "The FBI provided the timer." "Who bought the getaway car?" I said, "It was an FBI car." And he said, "Mr. Kiriakou, in your expert opinion, who's the criminal in this case?" I said, "The FBI is clearly the criminal in this case." >> Wow. >> He was found last week not guilty on all counts. >> All counts. Well, my own attorney was so excited about all this that he did some research and we're writing this for the New York Times.
[21:17] Um, his research found that of all the terrorism cases that the FBI has investigated, yep, only 1% are actual terrorism cases. The rest are just created out of thin air by the FBI. And of all the cases prosecuted by federal prosecutors, the Justice Department wins 98.2% of their cases. >> This was all This was all
[21:48] I'm actually reported pretty extensively on this. So, the what you just described in this case has happened dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of times, right? And it's the exact scenario you're describing. They They pick somebody who is in many cases mentally challenged and and or homeless. They create the entire scenario. They provide all of the the physical resources you would need. They usually pick a synagogue. For some reason it's you know, synagogues are uh uh target of choice for the FBI, right?
[22:20] Or they'll pick a landmark, a bridge, something. They create this entire thing and the moment that you say yes to it, even under duress, >> Right. >> now it you have now accepted and now you're part of the crime. >> terrorist. >> And everybody else is an informant or everybody else is is um uh an FBI agent. >> And you know, this is not something new. I'm glad that you just said that. There There are We know this thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. >> Yep. >> There are many documented cases where
[22:50] there would be small anti-Vietnam War groups, like radical groups with six members, eight members, and all >> Yes. >> eight of them are FBI agents. >> Yes. >> And then they run back to the >> in a lot of cases did not know the other guy. >> didn't know. And then they report on each other. >> Yes. >> Yeah, it's a nice system we have. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's the same thing with you know, I'm not necessarily a big Black Panthers supporter, but the original Black Panther Party was not a violent party, right? >> was about protecting black communities.
[23:23] >> and medical care. >> Yes. And it was the FBI and the CIA planting and this is all, you know, declassified on the record now. Um, you know, planting these informants within those organizations to intentionally corrupt them to create this. And so, yeah, I what a beautiful story though. And and it's so exciting to me to hear that you were not only able to testify, but he was found not guilty because somebody has to stop this madness. >> Somebody. >> And in your own way, you had the opportunity. You're not going to stop
[23:54] maybe the entire train, but you pull one guy off. >> that I was able to do my part. And because I was on Zoom, I could only see the judge and whatever attorney happened to be speaking. The public defender told me later well, several things. He said that um, that the jury was openly laughing at the prosecutor. >> Mhm. >> That the case was just so weak. They were they were actually laughing at him as he was asking his questions. And then as soon as I finished by saying the FBI
[24:25] is the criminal in this case. >> Yes. >> Uh, the judge cut the Zoom and he told me later that the defendant, um, Haroun Yenner burst into tears. >> Mhm. >> Later saying it was the first time, my testimony was the first time that somebody spoke out in support of him. >> Wow. >> And uh, and the judge had to call for a recess. It was clear to me, Ben, after reading it was about 1,200 pages of case papers. It was clear to me that this man was innocent and he was set up. >> And it's not this is not justice.
[24:55] >> No. this >> not make us safer on any level. >> Well, when they first called me, I said to the attorney, "Have you ever heard of the Route 82 Bridge Conspiracy?" >> Mhm. >> And he said, "No, I never heard of it." And I said, "Cleveland, Ohio, right? One of the the main thoroughfares through Cleveland, Ohio is Route 82. And it goes from like Philadelphia to Denver. It's kind of a secondary road. >> Mhm. >> But it's a major bridge going into the city of Cleveland. And there were these three idiots sitting in a bar, and a
[25:28] fourth idiot comes in, and they're all drinking. It turns out the fourth idiot idiot is a an FBI informant. >> That's right. >> And he says, as they're drinking, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should blow up the Route 82 Bridge. How cool would that be?" "Oh, yeah, that would be really cool." He provides the inert explosives that he got from the FBI. And when they went to push the plunger down, nothing happened. The FBI came out of the bushes and grabbed all three of them. They got 20, 25, and 30 years in a federal penitentiary.
[25:58] >> Yeah. >> And it was the FBI's idea to blow up the Route 82 Bridge. >> I remember that when the in that particular case, the judge when the sentencing took place, the argument was, of course, that they were entrapped, right? And the judge was trying to explain that look, on every level, yes, this is entrapment, except on the most important level, which is that there is a legal definition that says the moment you say yes, it is no longer someone who has planted this idea with you. It's now your own, right? But And again, we've
[26:30] [clears throat] we've seen this replicated so many times. >> What I think is so powerful is that John Kiriakou, you have been elevated especially in recent >> It's crazy stuff. >> months. This year has been crazy for you, I know. But I I it's it had to be a hilarious moment. If you're sitting in the courtroom where you're in the jury. Everybody knows John Kiriakou. >> Well, that's a funny thing actually. That's a funny thing. During voir dire, where they choose the jury, >> Yes.
[27:01] >> the judge said, "I have certified John Kiriakou as an expert witness in this case. Have any of you heard of John Kiriakou?" And of the 35 people that were there, 13 of them raised their hands. They had heard of John Kiriakou. And he said, um "If John Kiriakou were to give you a specific opinion, are any of you predisposed to do what John Kiriakou tells you to do?" And nine of the 13 kept their hands up, and they were all dismissed. >> Yeah. >> Wow.
[27:32] That's so interesting. >> I'm very touched that people take to heart what it is that I'm saying. >> Mhm. But but imagine the the the audacity of a prosecutor to sit there and say that you're a criminal. >> You're just a common criminal. >> Common criminal. And I I love the I love the response to say, "I don't think I'm common at all." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> According to your definition, a criminal, but certainly not common. >> And he said to me at the end, he said, it was the the last question that he had. He said, "At the end of the day, you really are just a criminal." And I sat there, and he says, "No response
[28:02] this time?" And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I was waiting for a question." >> [laughter] >> Exactly. >> says, "Move on, please." >> Yes. Yeah. It's It's He's like throwing insults at you. >> "Okay, you can insult me all you want. It's not going to change anything." >> And it And it doesn't change the fact that that you know what you're talking about. It doesn't change the fact that you have the ability to read and understand, because even a child can read and understand what they're doing. Um but but so few people have the guts to say it. >> Yeah, that's a shame. I get a lot of
[28:33] emails from would-be whistleblowers. >> Mhm. >> And I'm going to say it's in the single digits, the percentage who actually go out and say something. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You have become the king of Cameo. >> Yes, crazy. >> [laughter] >> So, for for folks who don't know, can you explain what Cameo is? >> Sure. Cameo is an app >> Yeah. >> where D-list celebrities are represented. For example, let's say you like some terrible reality show
[29:04] and um you especially like one person who's on this reality show. You can hire that person to do a 60 to, you know, 120-second video saying, "Hey, Ben, I heard that it's your birthday. Happy birthday. Hey, thanks for liking the show." >> Yeah, yeah. >> So, so Cameo called me on I I still remember the date. It was February 28th of this year and they said, "Hey, have you ever heard of Cameo?" And I said, "Sure, my brother-in-law got my sister a Cameo a
[29:36] few years ago. It was kind of fun." They said, "Would you like to do it?" I said, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" >> Yeah. >> So, it took me under 5 minutes to write a little bio and post a picture of myself and they said, "Just price it at $50. The algorithm will change the price every 15 minutes depending on your popularity." I said, "Okay." Well, I did 900 Cameos just in the month of March. I set this new record. I've done about 2,600 so far
[30:07] and they just keep going. So, about 50% of them are birthday wishes. >> Okay. >> And then everybody wants a story from the CIA. >> Fewer want a story from prison, but I think frankly those are some of the better stories. And um and then they're like you can get a roast or ask for advice or get a pep talk. About 10% of them are pep talks or advice.
[30:38] >> Okay. >> And then once you book one of these Cameos and and they they can be expensive. Like for me, I wouldn't spend >> Right. >> $180 for John to say happy birthday, but a lot of people do. Um but it gives you the right to then text me. >> Mhm. >> And I can you for free, and then I can text you back. So, out of these 2,600 about 200 have been requests for advice or pep talks. Three have texted me back afterwards and said that I actually
[31:08] talked them out of committing suicide. >> Mhm. >> There was one girl in particular, 15 years old, suffering from bulimia, very low self-esteem, difficult relationship with her parents. And the message that she sent me asking for a cameo just sounded to me to be so desperate. >> Mhm. >> I said in the cameo, "Listen, we're not supposed to do this, but here's my phone number. I want you to call me right now." And she called me. We were on the phone for quite some time.
[31:40] Um and I talked her out of it. >> Mhm. >> And then she's called me twice since then, each time for less than a minute, and she said she just needed to hear a friendly voice, you know, in the midst of a bad day. >> Mhm. >> And I I'm glad that I could be helpful. >> So many people will focus, obviously, on this, you know, kind of new found celebrity, and it's all about you know, building their brand. And I feel like you're first of all, no one is more deserving >> No, thank you. >> you're having. >> taking a lot of heat for that.
[32:11] Yeah, I I had a daily podcast with a with a dear friend of mine, and I I had to leave that podcast because there's so much going on. I can't do a podcast every single day. I can't. >> And I'm surprised at the um viciousness >> Mhm. >> of some of the comments on the podcast now that I've gone. >> Mhm. >> That I sold out, I abandoned my friends. It's like, what are you talking about? >> Mhm. >> I I've been poor for 19 years. I'm 62
[32:42] years old in a couple of weeks. My parents both died in their 60s. I don't know how much time I'm going to have. I have five kids. Two of them are in college right now. I need to make a couple of dollars. >> And again, I don't know anyone who's more deserving of it than you are because you've been so horrifically mistreated. >> Yes. >> You've had your career stolen from you. >> Mhm. >> Um you've been demonized, you've been shunned, you've been forced out of everything, and then all of a sudden,
[33:12] like, here he comes >> And roaring back. >> roaring back, and it's been incredible. I want to talk a little bit about And I I just want to say before I say that, how amazing it is that you know, 2,600 Cameos, right, are great. It's exciting. It's It's You're making bank. >> Crazy. >> But for the three people whose lives you you pull out of >> I take that very seriously. >> a big deal. It's a very big deal. >> I take it very seriously.
[33:43] >> You've had some challenges in marriage. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned you have five kids. >> Mhm. >> Talk about cuz I don't think that gets a lot of conversation in a lot of your your >> No. >> stuff. People want to hear the the the the shocking stories. There's also And those are like little highlights of life, right? >> Sure. >> But then there's this thing you have to go back to every day, right? And that you live with and especially in the midst of struggling through a divorce cuz your divorce
[34:15] Well, twice, yeah. >> Twice. >> have not been easy. >> No. Oh my god, no. I wouldn't wish my divorce on anybody. >> You know, my first marriage, we we got married too young. >> Yeah. >> Uh grew in different directions. The all the cliches are true. >> Yeah. Um she went her way, I went mine, and then I remarried someone from the CIA. >> Yes. >> And I'll be honest with you, Ben, she was the love of my life. >> Mhm.
[34:45] >> Truly. >> Mhm. >> And stuck with me all through these troubles, kept our family together, amazing. And then just decided that no, she'd rather be with this guy over here. >> Mhm. >> From work. >> Yeah. >> And so we split up. I took it very, very hard, and we fought bitterly in court over custody. >> Yeah. >> I'll tell you at my lowest point, I was suffering from terrible insomnia. I just
[35:15] could not sleep. And don't laugh at me because I'm a former CIA officer, but I have one of those Alexas next to my bed. And I know I know we're not supposed to. >> Yeah, okay. >> Right. >> But we'll we'll we'll reserve judgment. >> [laughter] >> But it plays the radio for me, and it's my alarm clock. >> They're listening anyways, they do everything else. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So I'm laying in bed, it's 3:00 in the morning. And I said Alexa
[35:47] what percentage of marriages that begin as affairs end in divorce? And she says with that chipper voice the percentage of marriages that begin as affairs and end in divorce is 93%. And I thought, yes. I'm going to be vindicated. >> Mhm. >> And I was after 14 months. >> Mhm. >> And um but I still it still didn't make me feel better. I still couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat.
[36:17] I was depressed all the time. And then I started doing this thing. It's going to sound stupid. It's going to sound silly. But it worked for me. >> Okay. >> I would lay there in bed and say out loud, "You're a nice guy and you don't deserve to be treated this way." >> Mhm. >> And I would repeat it to myself, "You're a nice guy and you don't deserve to be treated this way." And after saying that 500 times, >> Started to believe it?
[36:48] >> of snapped me out of it. >> Huh. >> Yeah, it snapped me out of it. >> And you know, I I got to tell you and this is going to sound a little bit conceited, I I will admit to you, but I like myself. I like the way things turned out. >> Mhm. >> My ex-wife used used to call it arrogance. I would say, "I'm right and they're wrong >> Mhm. >> and I'm sticking by my guns." >> Mhm. >> "Uh, that's awfully arrogant." No, history has shown that I was right and
[37:21] they were wrong. >> That's right. >> And so I'm proud of that. And I'm okay with the way things turned out. I wish that I wasn't a convicted uh national security felon. >> Mhm. >> I wish that President Trump or any other president would give me a presidential pardon. I'm still hopeful that that's the case, that that's what ends up coming to pass. >> Yes. >> But if it doesn't, I'm okay with that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because you're a nice guy you don't deserve to be treated [laughter] this
[37:51] way. >> How long did it take for you to >> believe that? >> Oh, it it it was a little while. Um my ex-wife >> it 500 times, it probably took you 499? >> Yeah, probably. Um we we were married in 2003, we were divorced in 2018. >> Okay. >> I felt like myself again I'm going to say 2022. It took a while. >> Yeah. >> It took a while. >> Yeah. All five kids are from that marriage? >> No, I have two from my first marriage
[38:22] and three from my second. And that's another really it really extraordinarily difficult thing. >> Yeah. >> Um my first two kids, they're older. They're 33 and 30. My oldest is a uh a bond trader in Chicago. My second is an elementary school music teacher in North Carolina. And they've cut me off. >> Mhm. >> Um they said that that I'm a criminal, that I've embarrassed them, that I've stood in the way of their careers, cut
[38:53] me off. It will be >> Blow blowing the whistle on CIA torture limits the the teaching music >> Yeah, right. >> school. >> In elementary music. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, right. >> Interesting. >> I'm glad that you've taken it the same way I took it cuz I'm like, what are you talking about? >> Yeah. >> They cut me off. It'll be 11 years ago next month. >> No contact for 11 years. >> Zero contact. >> Wow. >> And I, you know, for years I would I would call and leave a voicemail on their birthdays, on Christmas, on
[39:24] Easter, send text messages. Nothing. I would send cards and gifts and they would just return return to sender they would write on the on the envelope. And then finally I gave up. I gave up in in 2022. >> Mhm. >> Then I have three children from my second marriage. Um I have a son who's 21, a daughter who's 19, and a son who's 14. My 21-year-old son and I are this close. >> Yeah. >> Travel together all the time. We talk every day or every couple of days. We text each other. We have similar
[39:54] interests, like a lot of similar interests. Um my daughter and I were also like we couldn't have been closer. And then it's funny. She the the divorce was very difficult for her. And she ended up spending 13 months in a mental health facility. >> Oh, I'm so sorry. >> 13 months. It it quite literally bankrupted me. >> Mhm. >> And um she used to sneak into the nurses' lounge and call me and beg me to get her out of
[40:26] this hospital. And I would say, "Honey, I am working so hard. We're going to court again in a couple of weeks. I'm I'm begging the judge. I'm doing everything I can." She called me on Father's Day, June of 2022, to tell me Happy Father's Day. My birthday is 7 weeks later. >> Okay. >> Never heard from her again. >> Mhm. >> And when she finally turned 18, which was just afterwards, I called, I texted, left voicemails.
[40:58] Nothing. Nothing at all. So, now the fight is over our 14-year-old. And I'm I'm trying my best. It's extraordinarily expensive. I spent In my first case, I spent $1,150,000 to defend myself. >> Mhm. >> My divorce, my second divorce, I spent another million dollars. >> Oh my gosh. >> Which meant that I had to zero out every retirement account. I have no stocks, no bonds, no savings. I have nothing.
[41:29] Nothing. And like I said, I'm 62 years old. >> Right. >> I'd like to retire someday, too. But I have literally nothing. And that's why this, you know, Cameo >> Mhm. >> is it's a godsend. >> Yes. >> I I started doing voice-overs for television commercials. >> Oh, amazing. >> Who would have thought? I'll give you an example. There's a There's a television series on on a network called Paramount Plus. It's called The Agency. >> Mhm. >> I practically begged them >> Mhm. >> to hire me as the script consultant.
[41:59] They weren't interested. >> Mhm. >> And then I got famous. >> Mhm. >> Well, they already have a script consultant. So, now they asked if I would read the voice-over for the television commercials advertising the show. >> Oh, wow. >> So, I've done three of them so far. >> Fantastic. >> So, you know, things are starting to fall into place and you know, maybe someday I'll be able to actually buy a house. My car is 14 years old. One of these days I'll get a new car. You know, something like that. It's Things are working out.
[42:30] >> Yes. So, you're you're you're in a battle though still, you said, for the 14-year-old. >> Yeah. >> That's a That's a custody battle >> Custody. >> still taking place. >> Yes. >> But you haven't spoken to the the daughter who turned 18 in 2022 >> Yeah, 4 years now. For 4 years. >> No, what are we? Yeah, 2026. Yes, 4 years. >> So, she's also no contact. >> Mhm. No contact. And I'll tell you, Ben, I never really heard of this no contact. It's It's a Gen Z thing. >> It's a brand new thing. >> It's a brand new thing. There are books
[43:01] that are just now coming out about like what to do, why this happens. And um and I've bought them all. I've read them all. >> Yes. >> The bottom line is Yeah, this is a terrible thing. Yes, it's it's the nuclear option. >> Yes. >> But it's it's happening. And all you can do is make them understand that when they're ready to come around >> Yes. >> that you're amenable to it. >> It's It's one of the reasons that we're doing this podcast actually. There are It's an epidemic. >> It's an epidemic. I would call it the
[43:32] same thing. Yes. >> have this insanity of therapy culture. The There's so many things wrong with it. >> Oh, yeah. >> on this no contact thing, right? The whole idea is well, you have to protect your peace. You have to set these boundaries, right? It's all about safety and all these words they throw around, right? >> god. How [snorts] I hate the word safety. I think it's my most hated word now because it's thrown out so casually. >> Mhm. And everything is safety, right? Every little thing You say any word to
[44:02] me that I don't like, right? Your tone makes me me unsafe. If you If you want to talk about something directly instead of this passive-aggressive [ __ ] I'm unsafe. Everything is about safety. And so >> Call a cop. >> Oh, absolutely. >> If you feel unsafe, call a cop. >> Yeah. Well, the problem is is that when you now are framing everything through the lens of every emotion, every word, every action makes me unsafe.
[44:33] >> Yeah. >> It's very difficult for someone to argue with you to say, "Oh, you'll be fine." or "You are safe." Because we we have these built-in mechanism for every other generation besides Gen Z has a built-in mechanism to say, "Well, you're not supposed to put someone in an unsafe situation." Right? Right? The problem is is that they're not unsafe. >> Yeah. >> Right? They're not unsafe. >> Someone saying, "I want to talk to you." They made you uncomfortable. >> Mhm. >> That's what it is. >> You know, words are important. Well, they're important to you and me. But for so many other people, especially in this
[45:05] generation, it's like words are misused or misconstrued. Somebody >> [laughter] >> In a In a previous job, somebody filed a complaint against me with human resources. And I was like, "What in the world could I possibly have done to warrant a complaint to human resources?" >> Yeah. >> It was that when I came into the office one morning, I said, "Good morning, guys."
[45:35] >> The word guys? >> Guys. Because one of the guys decided that he some days doesn't feel like a guy, he feels like a woman. And that that was a microaggression. I had never heard that word before. A microaggression. And I wanted to say, "Grow up, kid." >> Yeah. Exactly. Like like you have created We've We have created as a society this this world in which, first of all, every feeling must be validated, right? And if you're not
[46:06] validating everything I feel, now it's again, it's another transgression, it's another harmful thing to me. >> [snorts] >> It's like But what happens, and what I see happening is that we My my sister talked to me the other night, we were talking, and she said, "I I heard that you hate therapy." [laughter] Her son was watching the podcast. She says, "I heard you hate therapy." I said, "I don't hate therapy." And she was explaining to me like how in like her life there have been moments when she needed I said, "Listen, >> Yeah. God bless you.
[46:37] >> people need that. I I've been to therapy and at times it's there's no problem with therapy. >> No, when my father died suddenly, I couldn't have gotten through it without therapy. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially when there is real tragedy or real traumatic events. Now, trauma is another word that I triggers me. Trigger is another word that triggers me. >> Me, too. >> But trauma, the problem with with the discussion about trauma is that everything is considered traumatic now,
[47:07] right? And so what that does though is that demeans real trauma, right? When everything is abuse, it demeans the victims of real abuse. When everything is unsafe, it demeans the victims of actual lack of safety or dangerous situations or people who really are victims of violence or victims of of of whose lives are in danger at times. And so what we've done is we've conflated everything. And this is a lot
[47:37] of this part of the reason I think it's a Gen Z thing is it's it's all tied into social media. >> Mhm. >> Where they hear this language and they hear everyone talk this way, and because everyone wants to be special. >> Mhm. >> We think that one of the ways we've taught Gen Z that one of the ways to be special is to be offended, to be hurt, and to be a victim. >> Mhm. >> Right? Generationally, we come from generations where we're willing to get rid of labels. >> Yes. >> Gen Z has become the most labeled,
[48:10] self-labeled generation. >> Self-labeled, yes, yes, yes. >> Labeling themselves with everything they can possibly find. And in my opinion, my humble opinion, not scientific here, therapy culture is making people crazy. >> Yeah. >> It's making people narcissistic. It's making people lose their minds. Cutting off your family instead of talking to them >> Mhm. >> is the worst thing, not for the person you're cutting off, by the way, because that person ends up doing just fine. Yes, they hurt. Yes, it's painful, but
[48:42] they're going to be okay. The person who's really harmed by cutting off a family member is the person doing the cutting. >> Totally agree. >> And they're being told, "This is good for you. This is going to actually save you or help you." And it's not. >> And you know, one of the sad results of this this no contact culture, >> Mhm. >> well, it's this. It's, you know, people tell me all the time, "Oh, don't worry. Someday, they're going to come back." Well, you know what? God forgive me.
[49:13] After 11 years, I don't care if they come back. >> Mhm. >> I don't really know those guys anymore. >> Yep. >> Yes, they're my sons. And it it was a tragedy and it was heartbreaking for me to be cut off like that. But I'm at the point now where I don't really know anything about them. >> Mhm. >> And um if they were to come back, I'm I'm not sure that I would welcome that. >> Mhm. >> Like I said, I like my life the way it is. >> Yes. >> So, why upset the apple cart? >> would be Yeah, that would become a
[49:44] conscious decision to say, >> Yeah. I'm sorry. >> have to make this work. >> Yeah. >> And the other thing is, if you are coming back, don't think that that means that now you come back for me to apologize. For being cut off for what I don't even know what I did. >> And and I don't know what I did. And I I used to text all the time. Like, "Please at least tell me what it is that I did." Nothing. No response. I I've never ever gotten a response. >> Yeah. >> Never. >> Do you Have you remained in contact with
[50:16] your first wife? >> No. >> So, are you completely cut off from her, too? >> Yeah, completely cut I Oddly enough, I've I've been in touch with her new husband. >> Huh. >> Yeah, who was a supporter of mine when I blew the whistle. Uh it's weird, right? >> Interesting. >> Um and he's a very sweet guy. And I'll tell you what, I always liked him because he always treated my parents with respect. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I always liked him. >> Interesting. >> He's an older guy. >> Mhm.
[50:47] >> And from I I think that's what it was. >> But But I always respected him. But my ex my first wife and I no contact at all. My My second wife um the last words that I spoke to her were, "I don't ever want to speak to you again as long as I live." >> Mhm. >> And then that was it. October 9th, 2019. >> Everything since then has been through lawyers. >> We live Yeah, everything has been through lawyers, everything. We live 3/4 of a mile from each other. We run into
[51:18] each other every once in a while at the grocery store or in the Target. And we just pretend that we're complete strangers to each other. >> Um how is that process for you in terms of releasing her? Because you're not releasing her from love. >> No. >> Now you're releasing her from rage and harm and what you've done to me and bankrupted me in so many ways. >> You know, I'm so glad that you that you asked that. I went to Australia a couple of years ago. I snuck into Australia because I'm
[51:48] banned for life. >> So, I was invited to give a speech at the University of Sydney and I went in a kind of a roundabout way through Mexico City. It was all very complicated. But, um her second husband was an Australian guy that she had worked with. And I called him when I was in Australia. And I scared the hell out of him. When I He says, "Hello, this is Nick." >> [laughter] >> I said, "Hello, Nick. This is John Kiriakou." Silence. And then he says, "What can I
[52:20] do for you, mate?" And I said, "I'm in Australia. Don't worry. I don't mean you any harm. I just wanted to tell you I've given this a lot of thought and I forgive you." And he said, "Really?" And I said, "Really. I said, you shouldn't have you shouldn't have gone with another man's wife. That was not cool. But, you didn't owe me loyalty. She did. And I forgive you." And he said, "Thank you." And I said,
[52:50] "You're welcome." And I hung up the phone. And the the truth of the matter is I didn't do that to make him feel better. He probably doesn't care one wit if John Kiriakou forgives him or not. But, it sure made me feel better. And I got to tell you as far as my second wife goes, um I have no hard feelings whatsoever. Time has passed. I'm beyond it all.
[53:21] I just don't care anymore. >> But, you're still dealing with custody. >> Yeah, custody is still an issue. >> So, how do you how do you find yourself cuz you're in a good place? And how how did you get to that for for men who might watch this and say "I'm going through either a bitter divorce or a custody fight >> Yeah. >> or she's dragging this thing out and just draining away what little I have. >> Which also happens a lot. Well, the only
[53:52] the only point at which I was able to finally say I'm past it. >> Mhm. >> Is when I decided to stop actively fighting and just let the let the court system do what the court system was going to do. I was obsessed >> Mhm. >> with custody. Obsessed. To the point where I lost friends over it. They were like, "Can't you talk about anything else in life?" And I'm like, "No, I can't." >> And then when I just decided this is
[54:22] just killing me and it's making me into somebody that I don't like. >> Mhm. >> Um and I was able to sort of push it off to the side, everything changed. Everything. You know, I started doing things that I'd never done before. Sound They're going to sound silly, but but I'd say like during COVID especially, I want to listen to jazz this weekend. And so I just get on a plane and fly to New Orleans for the weekend and listen to jazz and then fly back to Washington.
[54:52] >> Yeah. >> And feel better. >> Yeah. >> I've never done that before in my life. Never. >> Um I had never been to the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville and there's a Canadian band that I really like. And so I flew to Nashville and went to the Grand Ole Opry. Never ever ever have I ever done something like that. I said, "You know what? I've never been to Montana." And so I called an old boss of mine who's one of my dearest friends and I said, "I was working at Sputnik at the
[55:23] time and we upgraded the technology." And so we closed for a week and um and the general manager said, "Listen, everybody gets a week off and it doesn't count against the so just go enjoy your week." I said, "I've never been to Montana." >> Huh. >> So, I called my old boss. I said, "Don, I have a free week. I want to go to Montana. I want you to come with me, all expenses paid." So, we flew to Denver and and rented a car. We had lunch in Nebraska only cuz I'd never been to
[55:54] Nebraska and we were driving within 20 mi of it. >> Yeah. >> Then we had as a base we used Deadwood, South Dakota. And then every day we'd just drive in a different direction. We went to Standing Rock, North Dakota, Bismarck, North Dakota. I went to the Cheyenne Reservation in Wyoming. We went to Billings, Montana and the Battle of Little Bighorn National uh Monument. And I got to see a part of America I have never ever seen before. And then we stayed in this 19th century historic
[56:26] hotel and it's funny, every room is named after a famous person who slept in that room. So, I slept in the Babe Ruth room. >> Yeah. >> And my friend was in the Rudyard Kipling room. It was fun. >> Yeah. >> And then once So, my point is once you start doing things for yourself, once you get to the point where you like yourself, you want to spend time with yourself in your own mind. It's liberating. >> Yeah. >> It's liberating. >> Okay. I totally get that. But it feels like especially when you've
[56:57] come out of marriages and children and the whole process that you had been in. But most people aren't going to go through everything else you went through. But they will they'll come out of those things. When you come out of those things, how do you find the space to decide whether you even like yourself or not? How do you do that? Because you don't know yourself. >> No, you don't. And you know, funny thing too is um even in my 60s, I realized that I'm
[57:27] constantly changing. >> Yes. >> I've always been a hard worker, always. I've never worked as hard as I work now. To the point where my partner/girlfriend said, "You You should develop a hobby." >> Mhm. >> Uh I don't have any hobbies. >> Yeah. >> I used to. >> Yeah. >> And so we had a director here uh at the studio who was into astrophotography and he and I would talk
[57:59] and he would show me these incredible pictures that he took. And so I bought a uh a telescope and a camera with an adapter and I've taken amazing pictures of deep space. >> Wow. >> Now, you have to wait until there's a clear night. >> Yes. >> But um but I'll sit out there for 4, 5, 6 hours. >> Really? >> Yeah, just sitting there watching my picture come into focus on an iPad. >> Mhm. >> And it's it's wonderful and it's
[58:29] relaxing and I have these beautiful to show for it. Um art, I mentioned a few minutes ago, is another thing. Something that my that my third son and I share. Um when I was in college I worked for a labor union called the United Food and Commercial Workers Union. And they wanted to do a fundraiser for cancer research one time. And so they um contracted with an art gallery, a local Washington D.C. art gallery, to sell art at these inflated prices at an auction. >> Mhm. >> And so most of it was trash.
[59:01] >> Mhm. >> Framed posters and stuff like that, junk. >> Yeah. >> And then at the end it was at the end of the auction. The auctioneer tried to make kind of a big deal. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a serious piece of art. Serious collectors only, please. You know, made a big deal. And it was a it was a signed numbered print by Pablo Picasso. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And so he says uh Now, the bidding for everything else was $50, $100,
[59:33] $500. He says, "The bidding is going to start at $2,500." Now, granted, this is 40 years ago. >> Yeah. >> So, he says, "Do I hear $2,500? Anybody?" And my job at this auction was they they made me put on white gloves and I would pick up the art and put it on easel. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Silly. Silly to think that. So, 2,500, anybody? 2,500. I looked around and people are just sitting there like, "They'll spend 50 or 100 dollars, but they're not going to spend 2,500 dollars." I put my hand in the air.
[1:00:05] And the auctioneer said he whispered, "Seriously?" And I said, "Seriously, I have $2,500." I'd been saving for a trip to Europe. >> Mhm. >> And I got it for $2,500. It was my very first piece of art. Well, now I've got I sold that Picasso actually, but I have three Andy Warhols, a Jasper Johns, a Roy Lichtenstein, a Steiner, a Fernando Botero, serious serious art. >> Mhm. >> And my son is as serious as I am. >> Mhm. >> So, one of the things that we can share
[1:00:37] is um we go to auctions together. >> Mhm. >> And uh I mean, there have to be 500 auction houses in the United States, but there's one website for all 500 of them called liveauctioneers.com. >> Mhm. >> And so, we're both constantly on liveauctioneers like, "Hey, look at this. Hey, look at that. Oh, look at this." I found him a a WPA, a Works Progress Administration painting of of a New York City dock scene from 1934.
[1:01:10] >> Wow. >> And uh and got it for him for his birthday. >> Yeah. >> He I hope he's not going to listen this podcast cuz he doesn't know yet and his birthday is in October. But um but it's one one things that we can share. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, since I got divorced and I've had the time to focus on myself, >> Mhm. >> I've realized that there's a lot out there that brings me pleasure. Another thing that we do is baseball. I'm a lifelong baseball fan. >> Mhm. >> And um one of my friends and uh
[1:01:41] and attorney's Bruce Fein, who has been on many of our shows. Bruce's father was a relief pitcher for the Brooklyn Dodgers >> Okay. >> 1950s. So, Bruce grew up around baseball. He has season tickets to the Washington Nationals. He always buys more tickets than he needs. He and I go to games and we usually bring Thomas Massie with us or Thomas Massie's chief of staff if the congressman is busy. And we struck up this friendship. Well, my son loves baseball as much as I do. >> Okay. >> He's living in Columbus, Ohio right now
[1:02:12] working for DHL. And um and Pittsburgh is the halfway point. Well, we both love the Pittsburgh Pirates as terrible a team as they have been historically. And so, we'll meet in Pittsburgh, we'll go to a Saturday game, spend a night in a hotel, go to the Sunday game, I drive back to Washington, he drives back to Columbus, Ohio. So, you just you move on in life and you find things that make you happy. >> And and if you maybe you're not happy with your life, you change the things that are not making you happy, right?
[1:02:43] >> That's right. >> Discover things, learn learn to be someone that you want to be. >> It really is as simple as that. >> Yeah. >> And for some people it may be harder to actually implement that, but you've got to try because it will make you happier. >> And what what won't make you happier is trying to control the things you can't control. >> god. That's literally the definition of anxiety. >> Yeah. >> Worrying about the future and specifically about something that you have no control over. >> Mhm. >> That's the definition of anxiety.
[1:03:13] >> Your story um has kind of been through so many iterations. The point that you're at now, uh I'll I'll make this my last question. You've been so generous with your time. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> What do you want to see happen in your life in the next couple of years? >> I recently signed um with a talent agency, the Creative Artists Agency. >> Yeah. >> Biggest talent agency in the world. And they asked me exactly the same question in
[1:03:43] our first in our first meeting. And I said, "You know, I'm in my 60s. I don't really need material things. I have material things, and I'm giving them away now. Um I'd like to buy a house. >> Mhm. >> And I would like to be vindicated. I want a presidential pardon more than anything. And I'd like to buy a house or an apartment. And that's it. >> Yeah. >> That's all I want. >> Wow. >> Nothing else.
[1:04:15] >> Very simple stuff. >> That's it. >> Love it. Before we go, I want to ask you one funny thing. You've become a sex symbol. How crazy is this? >> [laughter] >> You've become a sex symbol. I think you're a great guy. Never seen you as a sex symbol. >> No. >> And yet you are >> Oh, Ben. >> hounded online. >> Oh, Ben. Ben. >> [laughter] >> I I hired an assistant. >> Yeah. >> One of my best friends' his daughter. >> Yeah. >> And she said to me the other day, she's 27. She said to me the other day, "You
[1:04:46] know, you get nudes every single day." >> nudes? >> Nudes. Women send naked pictures of themselves. >> women? >> It's so far >> Okay. >> knock on wood. So far it's only only women. I said, "What? Are you kidding me?" She said, "I just delete them." And I said, "Yeah, just keep deleting them." >> Yeah. >> And she said, "I I've never seen any such thing. They're from like 18 to 70. And they're sending me >> 18 to 70? >> Yeah, like the ages of 18 to 70.
[1:05:17] >> So, you have 70-year-old sending nudes. >> Sending nudes. And I said, "Delete all of them." >> Yeah. >> I don't know if they're 18. >> Yeah. >> And that's That's what I need to know. >> a honey trap right there. >> Yeah, exactly. I said, "No, just delete them. I don't even want to know." But, I've had three marriage proposals. >> Really? >> Uh-huh. And day before yesterday, uh a young man tattooed a picture of my face on his leg. >> Yes. You showed me this. >> It's just >> We'll We'll get a shot of it and put it on the screen so people can see [laughter] this.
[1:05:49] It's incredible. I I've also seen online my my daughter-in-law, she was talking about you the other day and she said, "Did you know there's all these pages that are like I want to have sex with Jim Carrey [laughter] Yahoo pages." And she says like all these girls are like losing their minds over you. And they're not necessarily 70 years old. >> No. They're like >> many of them that >> gorgeous. >> Yeah. Young girls and they >> Yeah, which is kind of creepy cuz I have children older than them. >> Yes. >> Uh yeah, I'm a very sensitive guy. >> What is the phenomenon behind that you
[1:06:20] think? Is it Is it just a obsession with the fame? Do you think it's it's the stories you tell also? Or that that there is a part of you that is sympathetic enough that it's like I want to be the one to make him whole. >> Oh boy. Oh boy. >> I know it's a tough question. >> Oh. I think it's a combination of things. >> Yeah. >> We have this star culture. I'm not a star. I've I'll never consider myself to be a star. >> Well, you have way too much substance to be a star. >> Thank you. That's That's what I've been
[1:06:52] going for. That's how I want to be seen. >> Yeah. >> And um CAA actually commissioned a study about why I'm popular. >> Really? >> Yeah. They said recently that I'm the most popular man in the world for men between 15 and 30. >> Huh. >> Crazy, right? >> I I absolutely believe it, by the way. >> It's it's crazy, but the reason is that
[1:07:24] I'm seen as honest. And I'm not trying to put a spin on anything. You and I have joked in the past that I'm an equal opportunity hater. >> Yeah, yeah. >> myself. I hate the Democrats, I hate the Republicans, I I hate Washington. They're all criminals and crooked [snorts] politicians, and I just hate everybody. >> Yes. >> I'm not really, but you know what I mean. >> what you mean. >> Yeah. >> But that has struck a nerve with people with especially young men between 15 and 30. >> Mhm. >> And so they see me as somebody that's
[1:07:55] going to give it to them with honesty. >> Mhm. >> Now, among young women, there's actually a petition out there now with tens of thousands of signatures trying to get me on this TV show Dancing with the Stars. >> Yeah. >> But I used to joke with my sister. My sister used to watch it. And I would always ask which ones are the stars? >> And which ones are the >> heard of any of these people. >> [laughter] >> So. >> You would be the most famous person on Dancing with the Stars.
[1:08:27] Except for Emmitt Smith. I know Emmitt Smith as a as a football player. >> He was very good. Yeah. >> Uh would you do it if you had a chance? >> I think I would. >> You think you would? You should. >> I think I would. >> Yeah. >> it would just be fun. >> How does How does your partner feel about all this attention? >> Uh not good. >> Not good? >> No. >> She doesn't like the fact that you get nudes all day long. >> No. >> Yeah. >> Th- That's especially what she doesn't like. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, how do you balance that? How do you How do you make her feel
[1:08:58] safe? >> [laughter] >> Usually we go to a Palestinian restaurant and have, you know, hummus and kibbeh and stuff like that and and everything's fine by the end of the dinner. Sometimes I have to raise my voice and say, "Listen, >> I'm with you. >> Yeah, right. I'm with you. I'm not with some 20-year-old. I'm with you. She's even older than I am. >> Oh. >> Yeah, she's 65. >> Okay. >> I'm I'm going to be 62 in a couple of weeks and I'm like, "Look, I've chosen
[1:09:28] you. >> Yeah. >> You don't have to worry about anything else. And listen, I I'm I might be a lot of things in life. A cheater is not one of them. Ever. >> I think every part of your life to this point has demonstrated and proven that. >> I [laughter] think so. I think so. >> John Curleyacu, a pleasure talking with you. Thanks so much. >> Pleasure's mine.