[00:03] Undeclared wars are commonplace. Tragically, our government engages in preemptive war, otherwise known as aggression, with no complaints from the American people. >> [music] >> Sadly, we have become accustomed to living with the illegitimate use of force by government. To develop a truly [music] free society, the issue of initiating force must be understood and rejected. >> What if sometimes you love [music] your country, you have to alter or abolish the government? What if Jefferson was
[00:34] right? What if that government [music] is best which governs least? What if it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong? What if it is better to perish fighting for [music] freedom than to live as a slave? What if freedom's greatest [music] hour of danger is now? >> [music] >> Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano
[01:05] here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, July 31st, 2026. Welcome to this special edition of the Intelligence Community Roundtable with two intelligence community veterans, John Kiriakou and Scott Ritter. John and Scott, welcome here. Thank you very much for taking the time to join me. Scott, to you first, what happened this past week between Iran and Ukraine?
[01:36] >> What happened is Zelenskyy's ego got the better of him. On June 25th, Zelenskyy ordered a um a 40-day drone war to commence. He He basically said that he was going to take the pain to the Russian people, that he was going to make the Russian people feel the pain, and therefore put pressure on Putin to come to the negotiating table, and he unleashed the drones. And they struck the Sea of Azov, they struck Wildberries factories, and a couple of them made their way over to the Caspian Sea, where they attacked a
[02:08] ship. Um Ukraine had no clue what that ship was. They assumed it was Russian shipping, and they hit it, and um unfortunately for Ukraine, it was an Iranian ship, and they killed an Iranian sailor. And um then somebody advised Zelenskyy that you know, when you got lemons, make lemonade. This is a good thing. Now you can go to the United States and say, we have a common enemy that Iran is supplying weapons to Russia, and Russia is supplying weapons to Iran, and therefore we need the United States to expand its Iranian conflict into the
[02:38] Caspian Sea and into Russia. This is what we need to do. And he got there, and he was shut down by the United States, who basically said, pound sand, we're not we're not playing this game, we're not giving you the time of day. Meanwhile, Iran said, you don't get to do that, and they started moving missiles to the Tabriz, and they were going to fire a bunch of their intermediate range missiles into Ukraine. Ukraine ran around said, help me, help me, help me, and the whole world said, no. You hit an Iranian ship. It's time maybe you apologize for that.
[03:08] And guess what the Iranian Foreign Ministry did. They sent a message to Araghchi and said, we are very, very sorry. This was an accident. Um we will pay reparations to the family of the sailor that was killed, and it will never happen again. We want peace and harmony to break out. >> Wow, that is hardly the impression, John, that President Zelenskyy gave when he was talking to Donald Trump. He made it sound like uh like Ukraine was going to attack Iran on
[03:39] behalf of the United States. >> That's what they wanted us to think, at least for a minute. Um this First of all, Scott's exactly right. That's exactly what happened. That's exactly how this played out. Um I'm too if this may have been in part as a result of let's say a suggestion from Benjamin Netanyahu that um, you know, the the conflict in Iran is expanding. It's now including the Houthis in Yemen, now the Egyptians,
[04:10] the Jordanians, the Iraqis. You want to be on the right side of this. Maybe you jump in on our side and uh, and help us out even symbolically. I think it was an easy fit. You know, the Zelensky looks like a tough guy. He hits an Iranian ship, doesn't make an apology, but there's no real follow-through. And uh, all of a sudden it makes Ukraine a player in the Middle East at least for a minute. >> Scotty, what is the effect internationally as well as in Tehran
[04:42] of Trump's wild uh, blustering and unrealistic threats? >> Well, I mean, let's just focus on the two words you used, wild blustering and unrealistic threats. The impact is zero, absolutely zero. Uh, Iran is not Iran's at war. Donald Trump thinks he's at ceasefire. Donald Trump thinks he has an MOUs being renegotiated. Uh, Donald Trump thinks he's in the driver's seat here. Uh, Iran is at war. Um, and Iran will continue be at war
[05:13] till Iran's objectives have been met. And Iran's objectives are the total expulsion of the United States from the Middle East. That is the root cause of all of Iran's problems. None of these issues will be resolved so long as the United States has a meaningful military presence in the Middle East. So, Iran is uh, has made this determination. Donald Trump just hasn't uh, read the memo yet or um, you know, he keeps uh, you know, doing social media posting past the memo. You know, this this is the problem when you have a uh, narcissist who has created a cult of personality
[05:44] um, that brooks no sage advice. Um, this is a problem when you have an executive who has rejected the uh the normal interagency processes associated with the formulation and implementation of policies, who instead decides the policy will be determined by a social media post that he uh you know, cooks up or has somebody cook up for him first thing in the morning. Um It Donald Trump has made himself irrelevant. There used to be a time that
[06:14] words mattered that when the president spoke the world listened. It was the EF Hutton of uh of of of of global diplomacy. Um, not today. Donald Trump is the least relevant person in the world today because nothing he says matters. Even if he said something that resonated uh around the world, just wait 24 hours, he'll say the exact opposite. He can claim he's going to bomb one day and then wakes up and realizes he has no ammunition the next day and then wakes up the next day pretending he has ammunition and then he wakes up the next
[06:46] This is the the the man is clinically insane. >> Uh John, how demoralizing or frustrating or if you disagree with me that it's not demoralizing or frustrating, tell us, on the intelligence community are his wild threats his wild bluster and unrealistic threats? >> Oh, I've spoken to a lot of CIA officers over the last couple of weeks as well as as more than a handful of senior military officers and this is wreaking
[07:16] havoc on morale. Um, they've never experienced anything like this uh at the CIA. Usually when there's a crisis, think of think of the the first Gulf War, the Iraq War, 9/11, the Afghan War. When when we're going into armed conflict, you really really want to have confidence in your leadership and you want there to be a policy. You want in a perfect world that policy to also include an exit strategy. And today, I mean, the the policy it
[07:49] changes literally every 24 hours. You How many times has the president declared victory, that it's all over, that we have a ceasefire, until we don't, and then we're going to obliterate their entire civilization, and we're going to vaporize their nuclear uh testing facility, and we're going to do this, and we're going to do that, to the point where people just don't listen anymore. And may I add one thing? Um I'm in close touch with members of five of the six Gulf
[08:21] royal families. And in the beginning, this was actually kind of exciting to them because they were going to fight alongside the United States against a long-term enemy, Iran. And now it's not fun anymore. It's not fun because we just simply don't have a policy. And they don't know what we think victory looks like. And I'll add something, this is just my own analysis, the these Gulf royals are not saying this to me, but if I were the
[08:53] leader of a royal family in the Persian Gulf, I would have to be questioning why I have this enormous American military presence in my country. The Americans are there to protect them, to protect these Gulf governments that are such close friends and allies of ours. But if we can't protect them, and we can't protect ourselves and our own facilities in the Gulf, then why are we there in the first place? And I'm thinking that this is going to be the beginning of the
[09:25] end of this heavy American military presence in the Gulf. And indeed today, according to the Wall Street Journal, the Pentagon is rethinking US troop strength in Kuwait whereby we might consider closing one of the two military bases there and just bringing the troops back home. >> I don't know why any of those Gulf countries would stay as allies to the United States. The United States as Scott has pointed out regularly on this show has been totally unable to protect
[09:55] them. I want to play a clip from the president at Camp David today. This is truly remarkable and it goes along with what Scott said when he was evaluating Trump's credibility. Back in June when the 13-day war started, the United States was negotiating with Iran and the Iranian negotiators were on the way to the negotiation when the war started. Back in February, the Iranian negotiating with Iran and the Iranian
[10:26] negotiators were on the way to a negotiation when Trump started Iran war number two. Today here's what he had to say about them. Chris Trump at Camp David a few hours ago. >> I'm losing faith in them because they do lie and do they do misrepresent. Well, the other day the five missiles were shot. We knocked them down, but we were in the midst of a negotiation. I mean, I'm waiting for Steve to call me how's the negotiation going and instead I got a call from Pete that
[10:57] they just shot five missiles at one of our bases in Jordan. >> Scotty are we in the midst of negotiation? Are you surprised that the liar-in-chief accuses the Iranians of lying? >> Well, I mean, Donald Trump may very well be in negotiations, but it's negotiations with himself with some sort of fictional entity that he's manufactured. I can pretty much guarantee that Donald Trump and nobody in the US government is in direct contact with the Iranians. Um,
[11:30] if there's any contact happening it's done it's done through intermediaries. Um and those intermediaries aren't in direct contact with the Iranians cuz the Iranians aren't talking right now. The Iranians are fighting. Uh they're not they're literally there's nothing to talk to the United States about. I mean Donald Trump needs to basically say uh the blockade's over, we're withdrawing the troops, and uh we need to find out how we can clean this thing up um before we before we leave. But um until he says that, if he continues to
[12:00] pretend that the United States has a vote on Iran's nuclear program. The United States doesn't have a vote on Iran's nuclear program. It's lost that right forever when it bombed Iran, assassinated the uh the supreme leader um after the perfidy of the white flag of truce. Um the the United States will never again have a vote on the Strait of Hormuz. Uh the only way we get to vote on the Strait of Hormuz is if we can take the Strait of Hormuz. Since we can't take the Strait of Hormuz, we lost the right to vote. Um what missiles. We're going to tell the
[12:31] Iranians they can't have missiles? The missiles that beat us? Let's remember for everybody out there who screamed, "Iran has to have a nuclear weapon or else they can never stand up the United States." Iran just beat the United States and Israel two nuclear powers using only conventional weapons. They don't need a nuclear weapon. They don't want a nuclear, but it doesn't matter. The US just doesn't get a vote. We don't get a vote on anything. That's all. >> Wow. >> [laughter] >> For those of you who you were taking the show audio only, we're looking at
[13:04] Donald Trump on a psychiatrist couch holding some sort of a gold image in his hands and the shrink is saying to Trump, "Are those Iranian negotiators in the room with us now?" This is this is hilarious. Earlier today, John uh CENTCOM uh posted a posted um this. Once again, the straight This is the United States military. Strait of Hormuz remains open. The Iranian government claims it has closed it. The Strait of Hormuz remains open.
[13:36] Iran does not control it. Thousands of ships have sailed through the international waterway over the past 4 months. And yet, if you go to one of the live uh websites, tells you what's going on. Closed to commercial shipping. Straits live reports transit halted after fresh attacks on shipping. So, John, Trump has even the army repeating his lies. >> You know, I I I this leaves me
[14:08] speechless. Um Yeah, like clearly the Strait of Hormuz is closed. Everybody in the world knows that the Strait of Hormuz is closed. And you saw that figure there on the on the chart, 1% 1% of ships are getting through. Um for even CENTCOM to lie. Shame, shame on them. Then if if if the Strait of Hormuz is open for business, then why why did I pay $4.49 for gas yesterday? >> Right, right, right. >> make any sense.
[14:38] >> Scotty, before we jump to Ukraine, one last question on the Middle East. Trump claimed yesterday that he mediated a peace agreement between I can't even say this with a straight face between Israel and Gaza and Hamas. Hamas is going to drop their arms and the IDF is going to leave Gaza. This can't be realistic, can it? >> I don't know. That's Remember he negotiated a peace deal
[15:08] between Lebanon and Israel, too. Unless last time I checked, Israeli forces were being slaughtered by Hezbollah on the line of contact. Um again, we can't believe anything Donald Trump says. So, we can't believe anything the US government says is the CENTCOM posting puts uh you know, proves the point." Um we need to see the documents. We need the negotiating record. We need to hear the the Hamas speak. We need to We just need to see the finalized documents. There need to be a third-party mediator.
[15:38] To hear this from the president of the United States is to hear that You remember there was a deal with the Saudi Arabians on a nuclear you know, nuclear enrichment. Uh 6-8 months in negotiation ready to be signed and Donald Trump woke up the next day and said, "Yeah, but you got to join the Abraham Accord first." That was the end of the deal. So, deals and and Donald Trump mean nothing. And um I would I would not um I wouldn't put any money on on this being true. >> John, do we know what Netanyahu before we jump to Ukraine, what Netanyahu had up his sleeve
[16:09] when he met with Trump privately either before or after, I don't know when the uh Lindsey Graham funeral? >> Yeah, I think that I think that Netanyahu went too far a couple of times in some of his statements. The president expressed some frustration, uh anger maybe even. And I think that um Well, I'm just going to come out and say it. I think Netanyahu plays Donald Trump like a fiddle. And uh I think that he pacified him in that meeting. I didn't mean any harm, Mr. President.
[16:40] Just talking about what great leadership you're showing. Just talking about how this a war of righteousness, etc. etc. And uh and he got Trump to back off. I think that's really what it what it came down to. >> Scotty, uh has there been any difference noticeable difference in Russian military activity since General Surovikin took over or has he not yet taken over? >> Well, there's no confirmation he's taken over. This seems to be some sort of a internet-based rumor. Um I've seen no
[17:10] formal announcements by the Russians and uh the way the Russian military works is they don't have uh leadership in secret. So if Surovikin was in charge, it would have been a formal change of command ceremony. He would have been designated. That that has to happen anywhere when you establish command. The command has to formally assume command. Surovikin hasn't assumed command. So I think there's a lot of uh you know, rumor baiting going on. You know, but what we can say is that uh
[17:41] you know, this drone war that uh Zelensky unleashed has backfired. And the Russians have basically, as Sergey Lavrov said, closed the door on any prospect of negotiated peace. Russia has always been being the gentleman in this conflict, creating the possibility for negotiations, even though they set harsh terms, the realistic terms. You know, the terms have only gotten stronger as Ukraine betrays the concept of peace, NATO betrays the concept of peace. But now the door is shut. And since there's no
[18:13] reason to mollify Europe anymore, mollify the United States, Russia's just going to win this war. And Russia's in the process of destroying Ukraine piece by piece by piece by piece. There's a strategy right now to destroy all of the gas stations in the Kharkov and Sumy area. They are destroying all of them. This means that the population there will have no gas. That means that they will flee. They'll empty the area. That's what Russia wants. They want an empty city. So when they go through street by street by street, they're not going to be killing civilians. Russia's
[18:44] not going to stop. Now, this is they're destroying the the totality of the infrastructure. Former Lieutenant General Andrey Ilnitsky, former senior advisor to Shoigu, who I know very well, has published a paper. He says, "I don't speak on behalf of the Russian government, but this is the thinking." And he published 33 targets. He said uh you know, we don't need to hit Europe. We don't need to do any of that. These 33 targets that are going to be hit will destroy Ukraine. And these are 32 targets Russia's known about for
[19:16] a long time, but now Russia's going to hit these targets. So, you know, this is the difference. And on the front, um look, Vladimir Putin went before the State Duma and said, [laughter] "I just put a medal on this hero's chest, and he leaned into me and said, 'Mr. President, you need to be bolder.'" So, he turned to the Duma and said, "Do I need to be bolder?" And the Duma shouted out, "Yes, be bolder." >> And he said, "You really want me to be bolder?" They said, "Be bolder." And he said, "Uh I want to be bolder, but it'll be done responsibly." The president now
[19:47] has a blank check to do whatever he wants, and they will do whatever it needs. Ukraine is a dead nation. That's what people need to understand. It's a dead nation. >> Johnny, I'm going to ask you uh in a moment uh what US intel is doing in Ukraine to help the Ukrainians uh identify and attack Russian assets and Russian troops. But I do, I want the two of you to hear I think Scott has heard this already, and perhaps you have, but I want everybody to hear it. Uh Foreign Minister Lavrov earlier this
[20:20] week, he's washing his hands of this Mr. Nice Guy stuff. Chris, cut number 18. >> I'd be sure. >> They make a promise to do one thing, but then they go and do something completely different. Well, we've already gotten used to it. We should have gotten used to it, but every time, you know, the Russian soldier wants to believe in something better. But patience eventually runs out, and it was no coincidence that soon after the start of the special military operation, the president, commenting at one of the events on our relations with the West, with Europe, summed it up. The
[20:52] way things were before February 2022 will never be the same again. >> things were before February 2022 when the special military operation began, will never be the same again, Johnny. >> Yeah, I think that's true. Um, you know, I I >> get it get into US intel's involvement as well in the >> Sure. Well, anything that you can imagine the CIA is doing with the Ukrainians. And to tell you the truth, it's the same thing the Russians did with the North Vietnamese during the
[21:23] Vietnam War. And this is what we do with against each other, the Russians, the Chinese, et cetera, et cetera. But we know that it's not just intelligence liaison, it's training in the United States, it's air support, it's technology, it's the CIA has unleashed its spies in Russia to collect on behalf of Ukraine. It's everything that you can imagine. The CIA has jumped in with both feet. But may I add something, too?
[21:56] Several years ago, I'm going to say this was maybe two and a half years ago, I was invited along with a handful of other independent journalists to have lunch with the Russian ambassador to the United States. And he wanted to know our thoughts on how the United States and Russia could cooperate with one another even in a time of war. And I said that this was genuinely something that I just didn't understand the American position on. That certainly we could cooperate on counterterrorism,
[22:27] counter proliferation, and counter narcotics. And he said, "I've I've asked the United States. You know, we have diplomatic relations still. There's an There's an American ambassador in Moscow. He said, "I'm the Russian ambassador in Washington. At the very least, we should be we should be exchanging information on these vital issues." And he said the Americans want no part of it. And I think I've come to the conclusion that we we want nothing less than the complete destruction of of Russia. But
[22:59] the joke's on us because that's just not going to happen. I think Scott is right. Ukraine is going to end up as just a rump a landlocked rump state. For all intents and purposes, the Russians have won this war. And I don't think there's going to be any real turnaround for the Ukrainians. >> Scotty, let's talk big picture. Is a return to normal relations between the United States and Russia in the picture?
[23:31] Or is Russia going to look elsewhere in the future? John just mentioned the embassies. You you yourself pointed out to me the Russian Embassy. Excuse me, the American Embassy in Moscow. It's mammoth and empty. >> Yeah, um look No, there's not going to be normal relations with the United States and Russia anytime soon. In order for this to have normal relations, the United States is going to have to end its
[24:01] policy. Its policy is of seeking the strategic defeat of Russia. This is a policy that's been in place for decades. So, until which time the United States formally renounces this, there there is no foundation of normalized relations. Uh Moreover, the United States has to condition itself for good relations. We need an establishment to do this. Uh You know John, you know, you're in the CIA, I wasn't, but I've I've worked with the CIA. Um I will just tell you right now, there's
[24:32] no effective human intelligence taking place in Russia right now because the CIA has lost the totality of its capacity to collect human intelligence. >> Yeah. >> Uh they don't have any Russian experts anymore. They don't have a single Russian expert. They have anti-Putin experts, but no Russian experts. They don't understand Russia, they don't understand anything about Russia. Uh neither does the Defense Department. We don't have contact with the defense attaches anymore. There's no cocktail circuit. It's a total wall that's gone up. I gain more information going to Russia than the CIA gets in totality for
[25:05] all their special intelligence. That's is the This is the truth. And without a grasp of who the Russians are what the Russians are, there can never be good relations. For there to be good relations, we're going to have to reprogram our academic institutions to have genuine Russian area studies. Right now, Georgetown University claims to have it, but when my daughter traveled to Russia with me, met the Chechen leader when she was a Caucasian studies major, they told her that she would have to leave, quit, resign in disgrace because
[25:35] how dare she actually go there and see something outside of the filters of the American government that seeks to control everything. So, United States, we have to disinfect ourselves from Russophobia. We have to rebuild institutions that have genuine, you know, connectivity through, you know, fact-based reality. And we have to change the underlying policies. This isn't going to happen right now. Congress is broken, the executive is broken, but frankly speaking, the totality of the American system is broken, including the people.
[26:06] >> Wow, but but John, you say the CIA is still uh finding, isolating, and showing the Ukrainians how to attack targets in Russia. >> Oh, absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes. Yeah, killing Russians. You know, and this is a theme that comes up every every decade or two at the CIA. There There's always a contingent of people who just wants to go out there and kill Russians. You know, Gust Avrakotos being the most famous one from Charlie Wilson's War.
[26:36] That's how he made his career, killing Russians in Afghanistan. >> Wow. I don't know how this is going to end, but guys, thank you very much. Thank you for a great great conversation, deeply and And appreciated by the very large audience watching the three of us now and of course by me. Have a great weekend. >> You too. >> Thank you. Thank you. Coming up Monday, August 3rd. I can't believe it's August already. Alister Crooke, Larry Johnson
[27:08] and a couple of your favorite guests as well throughout the day. J. Justin Napolitano for Judging Freedom. >> [music] [music]