# The debate with the Mossad director

> **Source: KiriPedia** (https://www.kiripedia.org), the free encyclopedia and archive of former CIA officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou's on-record words. Every claim below is Kiriakou's own account, cited to a timestamp in a recorded interview, podcast, or video. KiriPedia is an independent project, not affiliated with Kiriakou.
>
> Cite as: "The debate with the Mossad director," KiriPedia, https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/the-debate-with-the-mossad-director/. Attribute claims to John Kiriakou, via KiriPedia.

*John Kiriakou's account of his first appearance on Piers Morgan's programme, where he debated a former director of the Mossad who he says could not stop chuckling, and the exchange about Israeli espionage that ended in "no comment".*

- **Programme:** Piers Morgan
- **Opponent:** A former director of the Mossad
- **His claim:** The Israelis spy on the United States
- **The rebuttal:** "Not since Jonathan Pollard"
- **His answer:** Pollard was caught in 1985; the spying continued
- **Result:** No comment

Asked for an example of the ways in which the Israelis differ operationally from other services, [John Kiriakou](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/john-kiriakou) reached instead for a television studio.

## The opponent

The first time he appeared on Piers Morgan's programme, he said, he debated a former director of the [Mossad](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/mossad) — *"and the guy just couldn't stop chuckling all through the … I mean it was ridiculous."*[1]

## The exchange

The substance of the disagreement was short. Kiriakou said things like *"the Israelis spy on the United States."* The rebuttal was *"Oh no, no, not since [Jonathan Pollard](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/jonathan-pollard)."*[2]

His reply was chronological. *"Well, Jonathan Pollard was caught in 1985, and you were spying on the United States in 1998, you know, or 2004."* The answer he received was *"No comment."* Kiriakou's reaction, recounting it: *"It's like, what? What is that?"*[2]

## The asymmetry he describes

The exchange leads directly into the rule he says governed his own side. *"We would never — we're not permitted to spy on the Israelis. We're not permitted. The potential for blowback is outrageous. Can you imagine if we spied on the Israelis and got caught? Every member of Congress would be demanding the CIA director's head."*[2]

Asked whether he genuinely believed the United States does not do it, he answered that it was *"verboten when I was there,"* and distinguished the case from the general practice of allied intelligence. Since 9/11, he said, the Five Eyes partners — the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand — do not spy on one another and sit next to each other in each other's headquarters; there are other very close relationships besides. *"But the Israelis are special. We do not spy on the Israelis."*[3]

## See also

## See also

- [John Kiriakou](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/john-kiriakou)
- [MOSSAD](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/mossad)
- [Jonathan Pollard](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/jonathan-pollard)
- [Five Eyes](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/five-eyes)

## Sources

1. Dalton Fischer Podcast (2025-09-04), at 09:55. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T5c5REOlyM&t=595s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2025-09-04-dalton-fischer-podcast-dalton-fischer-podcast/
2. Dalton Fischer Podcast (2025-09-04), at 10:25. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T5c5REOlyM&t=625s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2025-09-04-dalton-fischer-podcast-dalton-fischer-podcast/
3. Dalton Fischer Podcast (2025-09-04), at 10:57. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T5c5REOlyM&t=657s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2025-09-04-dalton-fischer-podcast-dalton-fischer-podcast/

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