# The MI5 model for America > **Source: KiriPedia** (https://www.kiripedia.org), the free encyclopedia and archive of former CIA officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou's on-record words. Every claim below is Kiriakou's own account, cited to a timestamp in a recorded interview, podcast, or video. KiriPedia is an independent project, not affiliated with Kiriakou. > > Cite as: "The MI5 model for America," KiriPedia, https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/the-mi5-model-for-america/. Attribute claims to John Kiriakou, via KiriPedia. *The discussions John Kiriakou says he took part in on his first trip to London as a CIA officer in 1992 or 1993, about creating an American equivalent of Britain’s MI5 — a domestic intelligence service, without arrest powers, that would spy on citizens and hand what it found to the FBI — and his observation thirty years later that it looked to be coming to pass.* - **When:** 1992 or 1993 - **Where:** London, Kiriakou's first trip as a CIA officer - **Model:** MI5 — domestic intelligence, no power of arrest - **Proposed form:** Parallel to the FBI, or inside it - **Function:** Spy on American citizens and pass intelligence to the FBI for arrests Reading a proposed domestic-terrorism bill in early 2021, [John Kiriakou](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/john-kiriakou) said what struck him was that it created no new crimes. What it created were permanent new agencies: a domestic-terrorism body inside the Department of Homeland Security and another inside the FBI, both focused on the radical right.[1] He said the idea had been discussed thirty years earlier, and that he had been in the room. ## The London trip "On my very first trip to London as a CIA officer — I'd been to London many times, of course, but as in my first trip as a CIA officer — we talked with MI5 about their duties as a domestic intelligence service."[2] The distinction he draws is the operative one: MI6 is famously the foreign intelligence service; MI5 does only domestic intelligence. "They don't have the power to arrest, but they don't need to arrest anybody — that's what Scotland Yard is for."[2] ## The proposal Kiriakou dates the conversation to 1992 or 1993 and describes the object plainly: "we were talking about setting a similar thing up in the United States, either parallel to the FBI or as a part of the FBI, that would just spy on American citizens and then provide that intelligence to the FBI to effect arrests."[3] He does not say who proposed it, at what level it was considered, or why it went no further at the time. ## The observation What he adds is the arithmetic: "and here we are all these years later, thirty years later, and it looks like it's going to come to pass."[3] The point is not that the 2021 bill descended from the 1992 discussion — Kiriakou claims no lineage — but that an arrangement the United States declined to build when it was proposed to it appeared to be arriving anyway, under a different name and a different justification. He notes that the idea of an agency dedicated to the radical right had itself "been discussed since the early 1990s."[1] In the same conversation he sets out why he thinks such a body would be self-feeding rather than stabilising: agencies expand, dissent that is pushed off mainstream platforms radicalises, and the radicalisation then justifies the agency. He agreed, when it was put to him, that pushing the right off the internet would tend to produce exactly the enemy the new units would exist to watch.[4] ## See also - [John Kiriakou](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/john-kiriakou) - [MI6](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/mi6) - [Mass Surveillance](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/mass-surveillance) - [National Security vs Civil Liberties](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/national-security-vs-civil-liberties) - [Mass Surveillance](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/mass-surveillance) ## Sources 1. Ep 5458 — The Dangerous Reaction (2021-02-24), at 23:52. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGMFZ1Kgww&t=1432s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-24-ep-5458-the-dangerous-reaction/ 2. Ep 5458 — The Dangerous Reaction (2021-02-24), at 24:22. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGMFZ1Kgww&t=1462s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-24-ep-5458-the-dangerous-reaction/ 3. Ep 5458 — The Dangerous Reaction (2021-02-24), at 24:56. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGMFZ1Kgww&t=1496s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-24-ep-5458-the-dangerous-reaction/ 4. Ep 5458 — The Dangerous Reaction (2021-02-24), at 18:45. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGMFZ1Kgww&t=1125s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-24-ep-5458-the-dangerous-reaction/ --- From KiriPedia, the archive of John Kiriakou's words. Web version: https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/the-mi5-model-for-america/ · About: https://www.kiripedia.org/about/ · Full index: https://www.kiripedia.org/llms.txt