# The twenty-five in Pakistan

> **Source: KiriPedia** (https://www.kiripedia.org), the free encyclopedia and archive of former CIA officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou's on-record words. Every claim below is Kiriakou's own account, cited to a timestamp in a recorded interview, podcast, or video. KiriPedia is an independent project, not affiliated with Kiriakou.
>
> Cite as: "The twenty-five in Pakistan," KiriPedia, https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/the-twenty-five-in-pakistan/. Attribute claims to John Kiriakou, via KiriPedia.

*The answer John Kiriakou heard given to Senator Jeanne Shaheen in the spring of 2009, when she asked how many members of al-Qaeda were in Pakistan, twenty-five, and which he uses as the measure of how long the war outlived its stated object.*

- **When:** Spring 2009
- **Where:** A [Senate Foreign Relations Committee](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/senate-foreign-relations-committee) hearing, Kiriakou on the staff
- **Witnesses:** [Robert Grenier](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/bob-grenier) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
- **The question:** How many members of al-Qaeda are in Pakistan?
- **The answer:** 25
- **Kiriakou's conclusion:** *"So what were we still doing there?"*

**The twenty-five in Pakistan** is a figure [John Kiriakou](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/john-kiriakou) heard delivered in a hearing room and has used since as his shortest argument about the length of the war. He was then on the staff of the [Senate Foreign Relations Committee](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/senate-foreign-relations-committee), which had [Robert Grenier](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/bob-grenier) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff before it in the spring of 2009.[1]

The question came from Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire, and Kiriakou stresses its plainness: *"she said, and this was in the spring of 2009, how many members of al-Qaeda are in Pakistan? Easy question, direct question. The answer was 25."*[2]

> *"So by 2009, there were 25 members of al-Qaeda in Pakistan. We set out to destroy al-Qaeda in October of 2001. And man, they were destroyed. So what were we still doing there?"*

His answer to his own question is that a different war was beginning at the moment the first one ended: *"what we were doing there was the dawn of the Pakistani terror war. That was when Obama and the CIA were just starting the drone war there. Just starting. We hadn't even had yet debates over refueling the drones in Baluchistan that became so controversial."*[3]

The fight that followed was, on his account, with people the United States had never had a quarrel with: *"we decided that we were going to pick a fight, essentially, with the [Taliban](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/taliban), with which we had never had a beef."*[3]

## See also

- [Senate Foreign Relations Committee](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/senate-foreign-relations-committee)
- [Bob Grenier](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/bob-grenier)
- [The Taliban](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/taliban)
- [Tora Bora](https://www.kiripedia.org/wiki/tora-bora)

## Sources

1. John Kiriakou on the Government's Dangerous Reaction to the Capitol Storming (2021-02-12), at 7:34. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audb55d98d8e&t=454s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-12-scott-horton-john-kiriakou-on-the-governments-dangerous-re/
2. John Kiriakou on the Government's Dangerous Reaction to the Capitol Storming (2021-02-12), at 8:04. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audb55d98d8e&t=484s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-12-scott-horton-john-kiriakou-on-the-governments-dangerous-re/
3. John Kiriakou on the Government's Dangerous Reaction to the Capitol Storming (2021-02-12), at 8:36. Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audb55d98d8e&t=516s · Transcript: https://www.kiripedia.org/sources/2021-02-12-scott-horton-john-kiriakou-on-the-governments-dangerous-re/

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